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Please stay on topic/s–in this case tonight’s film Bonsai People: The Vision of Muhammad Yunus; director Holly Mosher, microcredit, social business, the film’s Muhammad Yunus and his philosophies, global and local poverty solutions… If you’d like to discuss today’s other newsworthy matters, please find a post elsewhere on FDL to do so. Thank you. And yeah, I tpye badly…

Welcome to Firedoglake Movie Night, and thank you for being here tonight!

Holly, Welcome to the Lake.

Hi Holly, thank you for being here tonight. What drew your to Muhammad Yunus’ vision?

Hello everyone! I’m very excited for this opportunity to dialogue with you about Muhammad Yunus’ work with microcredit and social business tonight.

When Muhammad Yunus and the Grameen Bank won the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize, I was absolutely fascinated. I read in the New York Times that he was lending small amounts of money to 6.5 million women, which I realized was one out of every thousand people on the planet. I was also curious because they had chosen to give an economist and a bank the prize for peace instead of the prize for economics. I knew immediately that I had to go to Bangladesh and see the work for myself. But when I got there I was blown away – he was doing far more than just microcredit.

We’re thrilled ot have you! How long did you spend in Bangladesh?

During two years (2007-2008) I spent 8 months in Bangladesh. I then went back for a week in May of 2011 to see what had happened with all of the borrowers.

Approximately how many people successfully pay off their loans and no longer need the services of the Grameen Bank?

How did they feel about being filmed, and how did you decide upon which women to film?

The Grameen Bank has a loan repayment rate around 97% currently. There is of course a varying degree of success with the loans, but I’d say less than 10% struggle from what I saw.

The thing about the loans is that the women often continue to take out new loans for bigger or different enterprises. The Grameen Bank only allow people to take out larger loans to expand their business as they have shown that they are using the loan well. I saw women diversify their businesses over time.

Some women chose not to take loans out at the end of each cycle, but wait for when they needed the income to do their next venture. For example one woman used it first to plant potatoes, then a rice crop, and then finally selling saris.

This is such a wonderful story, are you getting a good reception for the film?

At first, because of conservative Muslin customs, the bank manager must speak to the women through their hhusbands or male family members–but later he is shown speaking to the groups of women–did he gain the husbands’ trust, or was that because it was in a large group of women, and therefore not considered improper?

I was very worried after my first trip into the villages because the women were extremely shy and not used to speaking to anyone outside of their village due to the culture. In fact the first trip, most of their responses were “yes” and “no” to my questions. I came back very concerned as to whether I could make a film if they wouldn’t open up.

Luckily with time they learned to trust me and to gain confidence. That was one of the hidden things that comes out of being a Grameen Bank borrower, by participating in weekly meetings, they learn to speak up.

Can you discuss the current controversial apparent governmental takeover of the Bank?

Thank you Elliott. For the most part I am getting a very warm reception to the film. Most audiences have loved the film and I continue to get a lot of great reviews. There were a couple that weren’t so favorable, but I guess you can never please all tastes.

I just got a 3.5 star review from Video Librarian, which I’m thrilled with, because one of my goals with this film was for it to be used as an educational tool at colleges and universities. I also have an 18 page study guide for teachers to use, so that they can show clips in the classroom and discuss a variety of topics from microcredit, social business, women’s issues, international studies, poverty, health, etc.

Are there other micro credit programs in Bangladesh and how many people are a part of that?

Sumon definitely went to the men of the villages first in order that he’d be able to talk with the women. You also see how he goes to each household and speaks to both the husband and wife, if the woman is married. Once they are part of the meetings, then it just becomes standard that the women can participate.

When Grameen Bank was formed, it was much more difficult for the women to talk to Yunus. In fact in my bonus material, I have Nurjahan, who was one of Yunus’ students and worked with him from the beginning, who would relay the messages back and forth between Yunus and the women. So you can see how far they’ve come from 30+ years ago.

How big is the healthcare company and how much is it expected to expand in the next few years?

The government takeover of Grameen Bank is very strange to me, but when you look at their 14 point plan, you can see where their interests lie. To give you some background first though, while I was filming, Yunus actually considered running for office. When I’d ask people what they thought of that idea, they said he was too good of a man for the corrupt business of politics. I was surprised by their answers, but then again, Bangladesh has a history of being one of the most corrupt countries in the world, so I guess they have a point.

So now, back to the 14 point plan, currently Grameen Bank has a board of directors of 9 female borrowers out of 12 – they wanted to reduce this number to 6. When I read that, I saw that they wanted control of the bank. Now instead of reducing this number, they have instead just taken the power away from the board, by putting it what will be the hands of a government appointed managing director. The government isn’t even allowing Yunus to be on the search team for his own replacement, which is a slap in the face.

Also, in the plan, they are interested in bringing the other Grameen companies under the control of Grameen Bank. They are all legally separate companies. I will also point out that Grameen Phone is the most profitable company in Bangladesh and the highest tax payer, so I think this is a case of follow the money.

You can also read more about this on my website:
http://bonsaimovie.com/article/

oh cool

Website – Bonsai People

What does the Title of the film mean? “Bonsai People”

The health company had 54 clinics when I last inquired. They also offer insurance to a family of 7 for $1 a month. Although when I just saw Yunus speak at the Social Business Competitions here, he was saying that the insurance was now $3 a year.

I don’t know how fast it is expanding, but I do know that their eye care hospitals are just about to double. They built the first one in 2008 and they now have 3, fully profitable hospitals that can serve 10,000 cataract operations a year. They will have 6 eye hospitals next year.

Was Grameen Bank the first microcredit organization? The concept seems to have expanded aroudn the world. Are other microcredit lenders as reasonable as Grameen? Is there a venture-capital interest in microcredit?

Ah yes! It is called Bonsai People because Yunus tells this beautiful story. He calls poor people bonsai people. Just imagine, if you take the seed of the tallest tree in the forest, a beautiful, perfect seed and plant it in a flower pot, it’s growth will of course be stunted because its roots have been potted and they can’t get the proper nutrition or support. Poor people are just like bonsai trees in that there is nothing wrong with their seed, if you give them the support, they will reach their full potential.

I saw this as an analogy for the whole process of what he is doing, in that in all ways, he is always looking at the root cause of problems and trying to give everyone access to the things that you and I take for granted.

Yes, there are many other microcredit programs in Bangladesh. In fact the largest is actually BRAC. I don’t know how many they all serve together. The one thing that these organizations do need to be careful of is that borrowers are not taking loans from more than one and getting in over their heads in debt. Some of the people that are struggling to repay their loan are doing this against the advice of the bank, unfortunately. They do tell people not to do this and to come to them if they are having any problems, but of course you can not control what individuals may do.

It’s interesting Accion actually started their work in Brazil just before Yunus started his, and I believe that some groups in India were also beginning this around the same time. I think there was a need for this and they all saw a way to fill it. Unfortunately in India and Bangladesh, a lot of people were stuck under the debts of local money lenders, so this was a new way out.

As far as other microcredit lenders, I have read of a lot of abuses of the idea of microcredit, which deeply concerns me. In fact in the film, I have Yunus’ quote “Microcredit is not about making money off the backs of the poor.” However with any idea that people see there can be a profit, there is bound to be abuses. Of particular concern for me are the ones that go public and then are beholden to their investors. Yunus’ model is different in that the borrowers ARE the owners of the bank. They buy a 100 Taka (70 Taka was $1 when I was there) share of the company, so today the women own 97% of the bank. So in that way they are more of a co-op.

Has micro credit been as successful in the US?

Are there many social businesses here yet and do you know of any high profile ones?

Both Yunus and Jeffrey Sachs (author of “An End to Poverty”) stress the importance of women in creating economic growth in developing nations–Yunus discusses women’s managerial skills and ability to set long term goals, while Sachs stresses the importance of work for women in lowering the birth rate, and both stress that women who earn for their families help create literacy and foster an educated country.

Yes, microcredit has been successful in the US. People would be surprised to know how many programs already exist here. I know of several such as Opportunity Fund, Foundation For Women, and there is now Grameen America, which I believe has 5 branches in NY, 1 in Omaha, 1 in Indianapolis, and 1 in San Fransisco. They are having a similar rate of return.

As for social businesses, yes there are many social businesses and even more social enterprises in the US. Goodwill is a good example of a social enterprise. I am part of the Social Enterprise Alliance, which has about 1,000 members and now has 14 chapters in the US. They are trying to be a hub for social enterprise in the US.

Also, I am excited that I am just coming from two social business competitions here in the US. These are business plan competitions, which Yunus is a part of with states to bring vibrant social businesses into our communities. The North Carolina Social Business Conference
http://www.northcarolina.edu/social_business_microcredit/index.htm and
The Oregon Social Business Competition
https://secure.ous.edu/socialbusiness/
and on April 6th, there will be one in DC. Yunus also just spoke there at The Mid-Atlantic Social Business and Microcredit Forum at UDC http://www.udc.edu/socialbusiness/overview.html
It was very exciting to see all the ideas the students came up with to tackle a wide variety of issues from fuel through bio-char to healthy food in our vast food deserts.

Yes, I do think that is an important thing for everyone to consider. It is also discussed in Half The Sky as well. Grameen borrowers are twice as likely to use family planning methods, so you can see how this is really helpful. I am deeply concerned with our population explosion and I was happy to hear that the birth rate of Bangladesh is that each woman is now having 2.2 children.
I also saw how the women used the money to really put food on the table and get the kids to school. Yunus and others explained that the men were more likely to spend the income on other things.

I was kind of appalled that a large religious building went up–were locals hired for construction? Did the religious building provide any jobs for the community, or did the foreign govt just show up and create it…and was it needed? (Reminds me of the midle ages when those glorious cathedrals would appear as people were starving…)

Actually, I saw that the religious building was good for the community, as it served as a school and as a community space. I was trying to show that the Saudis were giving money to provide things that the people of the community wanted, whereas I was concerned about what message we are sending with our wars with Iraq and Afghanistan. The Saudis only gave money and all the work was done by Bangladeshis.

I know the US gives money for many wonderful things overseas, but it was just interesting that in this community, that it was the Saudis who were helping.

Ah, I see. I took it differently, but yes, I can see that the Saudis saw the area as worth investing in, in terms of providing a religious and community space. (I just exposed my own bias towards organized religion!)

Was this a way to influence the “women” and keep them in-line, more subservient? or to really provide a service to the community that was more literate?

Just want to say hi to my friend and neighbor Holly! Great to see you here in my stomping ground.

Is anyone trying to scale microcredit up? Not only to more of a credit management organization, perhaps loans for struggling homeowners needing to reduce their debt burdens, but direct lending to developing countries as well?

Do you think that microcredit is playing a part in changing long-hled cultural views abouts/attitudes toward women in developing countries as they are the recipients of the loans and have the say in how the money is used?

No worries, Lisa. It’s so hard with a film to be clear with all the points a director is trying to make and still be entertaining and engaging. Many people in my test screenings questioned why I wanted to keep that point in the film. It was for my own bias against wars and since Yunus had gotten the peace prize, I felt it was relevant, and it was equally important to stress at that moment that he points out the problem of inequality of income distribution.

I have been worried about the inequality of income distribution for decades because I used to live in Brazil and there I have seen the disparity getting smaller, whereas in the US, I have seen it widening. And you see now with our 99% movement, that we’ve come to a real juncture where we need to decide what future we want. Do we want a government that pushes for human rights and a more equal community, as I’ve seen Brazil doing, or do we push for individual rights above all else? Also, I am deeply concerned of the power of the corporations and the power they have over our government to sway our legislation.

If you listen to Nurjahan telling of how difficult it was to work with the women and the lies the money lenders and religious leaders would originally spread against Grameen Bank, it is clear that they found this a threat to their status quo. Now, it has become acceptable, but it was a real struggle to get to the 50-50 level of lending to women. When Yunus started Bangladeshi banks serviced 99% men. Even in the US, my mother told me that women had to have their husbands co-sign for things until the 60s. This is one piece of many that is a way that empowers women and helps bring equality in the home.

Your mother is right – it went into the 70s + in some accounts, checking and credit cards.

Hi Dave! Good to see you here. Yes, microcredit is scaling up. There are more than 100 million people getting microcredit loans. However, I think it is important that scaling up happens with the real interests of the poor in mind. Some of the scaling up has happened via the companies that go public and are charging way too much interest, in my opinion. So I’d rather have it grow at a healthy rate and in the right way. One of my favorite quotes from Yunus is “There is no shame in starting small.” Yes, we want to scale up, to reach everyone in poverty, but no, we don’t want to do it, if it harms the people it is supposedly helping.

I think it is time to differentiate between “social microcredit” and microcredit, just as with social business – under Yunus’ definition, the investors should get their money back, but not get dividends. This way it can be done in a sustainable way.

If you read my article I share my idea of how Yunus’ model around flexible loans could have been used for our housing crisis. Maybe that is not too late. http://bonsaimovie.com/article/

Crazy, isn’t it. Being in Bangladesh made me realize how far we’ve come, but it also made me want to work harder for women’s rights here at home. It’s shocking that only 17% of Congress is women.

On FDL’s front page there’s a story by Kevin Gosztola about Illinois Law Enforcement Alarm System Mobile Field Force, clad in riot gear, removing 13 protestors from in front of a Walmart warehouse.

Yes Lisa, I definitely think that microcredit has helped in the changing views of women. Pakistan actually was one country with Bangladesh until 1971 (strange when they are 1,000 kilometers apart, but that is how they were divided up when the British left), and from what I hear, there is a big difference in women’s rights between the two countries now.

I will have to read that more thoroughly later. These are strange times we are living in. Yet I am hopeful that we can push for laws that are really what are best for the citizens of this country.

And that’s why I’m also really inspired by the idea of social business. It is very exciting to think that we can create vibrant social businesses in this country, that are solving our problems fully sustainable business solutions.

As you can see in the film, Yunus uses social business – which I should explain is a business that is set up to solve a problem in a sustainable way, and where the investors get their money back. But it is a non-loss, non-dividend company. They want to make enough money to stay in business and provide good salaries and services, but all money stays within the company.

Yunus has shown that it can be done in healthcare, alternative energies, clothing yogurt, shoes, mosquito nets, etc. He has over 60 companies now and all aimed at solving a problem that the poor are facing, in a way that is affordable for them.

How are the village councils set up? I am glad women can run for them. And what happens regarding loans after a natural disaster when crops and animals are wiped out?

Have you been in touch with your interviewees in the last year? Have there been any more natural disasters?

When I started filming, he had 30+ companies, but now that has expanded to over 60. For example with the alternative energy company, they started in 1996 and were profitable within a few years. They are providing energy to people that had no electricity in their lives. They were cooking with wood or dung, using kerosene lamps, etc. This changed their lives. Now Yunus Grameen Shakti is the fast growing solar company in the world and they will have 1 million solar homes within 2 months. In 3 years, they plan to have 2 million homes. Bangladesh has about 160 million people, so they are bringing electricity in a very scalable, sustainable way.

Lisa, I don’t know how the village councils are set up exactly, but I did see elections and campaigning going on, so I think it is similar to here. Women can run, but they are still a small minority. Aroti was one of two women on her council.

After natural disasters, the bank goes into relief mode and starts handing out alum to create clean drinking water, and giving out clothing. I was there during one of the worst cyclones in years and it was impressive to see them go into relief efforts. They then give out new loans so that the families can get back on their feet, because they have often lost everything. They still have to repay the loans, as they are not a charity, but they go into a more flexible payment structure. As Yunus says, the borrowers are the owners, so if they are not on their feet, the bank will not be on its feet. I really wish our banks thought that way, during our current crisis.

A quick plug for next weeks film The House I Live In which won the Sundance Grand Jury Prize. You can watch the trailer here.

Filmed in more than twenty states, THE HOUSE I LIVE IN captures heart-wrenching stories from individuals at all levels of America’s War on Drugs. From the dealer to the grieving mother, the narcotics officer to the senator, the inmate to the federal judge, it offers a penetrating look inside America’s longest war, laying bare its ominous inner workings and profound human rights implications. While recognizing the seriousness of drug abuse, the film investigates the tragic errors and shortcomings that turned a matter of public health into a criminal justice opportunity, earning the United States the dubious distinction of being the world’s leading jailer and giving rise to a vast industry of mass incarceration that feeds upon the lives of poor and minority Americans. Digging deeper, the film examines how political and economic corruption over forty years have perpetuated the War on Drugs despite persistent and recurring evidence of its moral, economic, and practical failures.

I haven’t been in touch with the women since May of 2011. Bangladesh is a country ridden by natural disasters. During my 2 years there I witnessed two extremely bad floods and the cyclone. Because they are both a river delta like New Orleans and below sea-level like the Netherlands, this is a reality for them always. Also they are one of the countries most affected by global climate change.

That looks very interesting.

There’s a company in Los Angeles that employs kids from (South) Central Los Angeles, training them to install solar panels. They do it at a low cost, and are also installing solar panles in their neighborhoods at cost in order to help the area be self-sufficient, save moeny and resources.

Holly, this has been so inspiring! I hope your film reaches students and community groups so they can see a flip side to banking and maybe institute changes, help fund microcrdit in their communities or abroad.

That’s fantastic Lisa. Being a part of the Social Enterprise Alliance, I’ve heard of so many amazing initiatives which are happening here at home. I wish the news would talk more about all the good things we have going on and which people are creating, instead of always focusing on what’s going wrong. I think people would be surprised at how many things are happening in their own backyards. But I guess the shocking and dark news gets more attention.

Screening and how you can Host a screening – http://bonsaimovie.com/screenings/

Thank you Lisa. I hope so, too. That is why I’m very eager to see that Social Business Competition come to all 50 states. I think they will realize that they can create a different future and that their work doesn’t have to be out of line with their personal morals or vision. Their work can be what they offer the world, that they are giving back. That we aren’t stuck in just a for profit or non-profit mentality.

Thank you so much for being here with us and for making Bonsai People-The Vision of Muhammad Yunus

Firepups and firebaggers, thank you and look forward to seeing you next wek!

Yes, hosting a screening is both fun and easy. It is a great way to bring people in your community together to talk about your vision for the future and what ways you, or a group you belong to, are doing their part. And don’t hesitate to contact me with any further questions about the film, microcredit or social business – or filmmaking ;)

Thank you Lisa, Bev and Firedoglake readers!

A lot of people ask what is next, so I can share that I’m executive producing a filmed called Pay 2 Play, which looks at the influence of money in politics.
http://pay2play.tv

If anyone is interested in my other work, please stop by
http://www.filmmakerforchange.com

You can also find me on twitter at @filmsforchange and @bonsaimovie

Yunis is a libertarian and grifter playing on the fantasies of white western liberals.

Yunis says:
‘I believe that “government”, as we know it today, should pull out of most things except for law enforcement and justice, national defense and foreign policy, and let the private sector, a “Grameenized private sector”, a social-consciousness-driven private sector, take over their other functions.’

Some actual facts about how microcredit works and what its effects are

http://ukzn.academia.edu/PatrickBond/Papers/486980/Microcredit_Evangelism_Health_and_Social_Policy