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Please stay on topic/s–in this case tonight’s film Between Two Worlds — Israel, Jewish identity, Jewish film, and other topics relating to the film.

Welcome to Firedoglake Movie Night, and thank you for being here tonight!

Happy to be here!

Welcome Deborah Kaufman and Alan Snitow! This was a really touching film. Thank you for sharing it with the world, it was quite thought provoking.

The film opens with a discussion of the SF Jewish Film Festival controversy over the screening of Rachel. Was there a particular moment during that time when you realized you had the makings of a documentary?

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We’d been thinking about Jewish politics for some time but when we saw how dissent was being handled in the Jewish community we knew there was a film to be made. It was like a Jewish Tea Party.

Interesting comparison. What parallels do you see to the tea party?

Welcome to the Lake Alan and Deborah,

I had a chance to see your film and found your very personal stories so touching and illuminating. Thanks for sharing them.

I’m wondering how your families have responded to the film?

The brouhaha at the Jewish Film Festival in San Francisco occurred in the summer of 2009 when the rise of the Tea Party in politics was making political debate and electoral politics similar to the kind of rage that we sometimes see on the Internet. In fact, Peter Stein, head of the festival received a deluge of vicious and personal attacks in email–a campaign organized internationally.
The real result was the immiseration of debate on central topics of identity–and a reduction of the debate to yelling and screaming that works best for bullies and trolls.

Yes the shouting match shown during the screening discussion was very similar to an online trollfest. Love the word ‘immiseration’ too :) Did the film Rachel actually get screened that year?

We wanted to include our own family histories in order to be transparent about where we were coming from but also to show there is a history to current debates inside the Jewish community. My family background is Zionist and nationalist, Alan’s was Communist and internationalist. These secular faiths have had a huge impact on political debates today. Our families both understood what we were trying to show even though it’s often hard to see yourself on film…

What kind of work went into getting all the wonderful archival footage you use in the film?

Yes, Rachel was screened twice at the festival–in San Francisco and Berkeley. But it was at the SF screening that things go really nasty with an anti-Rachel speaker provoking the crowd which included a lot of pro-Rachel and pro-Palestinian activists, some of whom tried to shout him down. It was a kind of perfect storm. The rightwing activists who support settlements in the West Bank won the day by appearing to be the defenders of free speech even as they then organized an effort to shut down free speech about the occupation inside the Jewish community by lobbying for and winning institutional “guidelines” about what could be debated and how inside Jewish organizations like the film festival. A lot of people after that were afraid that they would lose their jobs or funding if they got out of line.

I have both factions in my family. I’m a Internationalist and secular, plus I’m married to a American partially Lebanese women ( her mother’s father was Lebanese.) Your right that a huge debate rages between these two factions inside Judaism and even inside Israel today.

Do you see that chilling effect continuing today in 2012? What effect has it had on modern Jewish film festivals — any other controversies, dropped films or that kind of thing you know about?

Are there specific groups or organizations who went after the Festival? We know from reporting by Max Blumenthal for example about the strong influence of certain Christian right wing groups in “supporting Israel.”

Glad you liked that – we loved being able to use the old home movie footage of Palestine shot by my dad in 1936 – and we were totally excited about searching for footage of the Soviet Union also from 1936, the year Alan’s mom traveled there. Archival footage is getting more expensive to license as archive materials become consolidated but it’s essential to see what the world looked like for earlier generations.

I like how the film frames that debate in relation to the debate that happens in all families.

Both sets of footage felt like a real gift to get to see.

Thanks Seaglass. I think you are right. Secular and progressive Jews have been central to American Jewish identity in the United States, but those qualities seem to be under siege.
Many young people we talked to in touring with the film feel that they are “inauthentic”, illegitimate, and that as a result they don’t have the right to speak or even to ask questions.
We talked to a number of people after screenings who said they were “admitting” for the first time publicly that one of their parents was not Jewish or that they were dating someone who was not Jewish and therefore they felt they didn’t have a right to speak!
Many Muslims and Arabs who came to screenings said they identified with the film because they too have been attacked harshly for seeming to break ranks by being secular or for “talking to the enemy”.

Yes the chilling effect continues – we saw it all across the country when we toured with the film over the last year – Jewish Film Festivals hounded by ‘thought police’ threatening cuts in funding if they show the ‘wrong’ film. JCC’s and synagogues the object of groups like “JCCwatch” or “Rabbiwatch” and of course there are “JewishFilmFestivalwatch” groups too! Luckily, there are people who think independently – wherever they may stand on the Israel-Palestine debate.

Did you continue to receive threats or hate mail over Between Two Worlds like had come in at the Rachel screening? Has it caused a resurgence of controversy at any screenings?

Yes, specific groups did go after the festival for showing Rachel. In particular, a group of conservative wealthy donors to the Jewish Federation which funds lots of Jewish services lobbied for punishing the festival and anyone who “crossed the line.” Many of these people turned out to be associated with the Republican Jewish committee which is trying to drive Jewish voters into the Republican camp in the upcoming elections by saying that Obama is against Israel.
Evangelical Christian conservatives (not all evangelicals are conservative) weren’t engaged in this internal Jewish debate about the festival, but they have become part of the broader national alliance of silencing about disagreements with the policies of the Netanyahu government–as if many Israelis and many American Jews did not oppose those policies.

Our film is definitely seen as provocative but it’s been shown in a lot of film festivals, community centers, and some theaters. The discussions we’ve had with audiences have been amazing – not vitriolic at all even when people disagree – and we’ve had everyone from those who claim there is no Occupation, to those who are strong advocates of the Boycott, Sanction, Divest movement. People need a place to express themselves and our film provides a context for a more civil dialogue.

Good evening Deborah and Alan and welcome.

I have not seen either of your movies so forgive me if this question is addressed but how are those of us who are not Jewish supposed to respond when called anti-semitic when we are only against a variety of the policies of both Israel and the US? Especially since it sounds as if you have received the same accusations.

I’m glad to hear the film is opening a dialogue. Were there any particularly memorable moments from the screenings?

Good question (for the record, my Dad’s side of the family is Jewish).

The issue of silencing goes beyond just debate over Mideast politics. There’s also a lot of intimidation about debating what the meaning of the Holocaust is for today or about whether or not leftwing Jews should be considered Jewish! Do we gain some kind of purity because we have been victims?

Do you see the quashing of dissent within Jewish culture as relating to the larger crackdown on dissent we’re seeing worldwide?

Yes we’ve received some of the same accusations – people who say we’re propogandists, etc.It’s important to remain sensitive to where people are coming from but we’ve had to constantly try to reframe the dialogue so that the discussion isn’t all about “Who is the greater victim?” Many Jews in our audiences talked about having post-traumatic stress syndrome as a result of our history, the Holocaust, etc, and there is some truth there but it shouldn’t be used to justify the actions of the most right wing government that Israel has ever had. We feel it’s important for people who care to speak out about these things.

One of the most memorable moments came at our world premiere in Toronto. A man got up and said he had been the Catholic chaplain at Brandeis and felt that he couldn’t talk to his Jewish colleagues for fear that he would be dismissed as ignorant or even worse as anti-Semitic because he didn’t know the right words to use. We encountered this at many screenings from all kinds of people. Many of our favorite responses came from young people in the Jewish community who told us they were breathing a sigh of relief that it was okay to talk, to think about their own identities, and to ask questions publicly.
We also enjoyed the give and take with people who disagreed with us because that kind of give and take is what we were advocating in the film itself.

Any tips on defusing tense discussions about these topics and opening real dialogue — other than just showing them the film? :D

Yes, very much so. It goes way beyond the Jewish community – eg the Catholic Church has come down hard on American nuns for their independent views.

There’s also a deep history and tradition of debate inside the Jewish community. The Talmud is essentially as series of debates about the meaning of texts and how to live as a human being and as a Jew. We think that is an essential feature of Jewish identity and it’s one of the thing about being Jewish that we love the most.

We need more speech, not less. We are very concerned with increasing right wing attacks on university professors and especially on the University of California that would curb free speech. There are groups organizing to make any criticisms of Israel fall into the category of “Hate Speech”. We need to work hard to ensure that students are not cut off from critical debates that are taking place in the world.

I think healthy debate is lacking now — it seems like political debate is mostly received on TV in controlled packages instead of actively engaged in person by individuals. Do you think people came away with changes opinions from these discussions at your screenings? Is it possible to change people’s minds on something as heated as Israeli politics?

One of the weirdest responses we had to the film came at a screening in Eugene. There’s a section in the film about my trying to uncover my mother’s secret communist past by going into a big storage room in a warehouse where my cousins and all the family stash the files and some other belongings of our parents and grandparents. A guy got up in the audience and asked what appeared to us to be a classicly anti-Semitic question: “Do all you Jews have warehouses like that?”
I told him that since the days of Joseph in Egypt when it was necessary to store grain for drought years that we Jews always have had warehouses! The crowd cracked up.

How can people like Firedoglake readers help protect free speech and debate in the specific area covered by your film?

Wow what a bizarre question. Thanks for sharing that :)

One of our big concerns is about the upcoming elections. In 2008, American Jews voted 78% for Obama, higher than any group except African-Americans. This year, there is the most intense campaign ever to drive Jews away from Obama. Millions are being spent in scare ads, and Romney keeps saying that Obama is throwing Israel under the bus. It’s pretty transparent, and I don’t think it will have a big impact, but the Jewish vote is significant in a number of states, including Florida, and small shifts can be significant, especially in this era of voter suppression.

Yes, people can change! We’ve had people at our screenings tell us they see things differently after viewing the film. At the Jerusalem Film Festival one viewer said the film opened them up to new viewpoints, and in Denver a Holocaust survivor told us the same thing. There’s a kind of empathy deficit in the world, but personal stories and the experience of seeing a film in a group setting can often help open up the imagination.

Is there any shift you can see toward increased sanity in either party on policy toward Israel?

It’s scary to witness the intense fear & hatred many American Jews have for all Muslims these days. I had that experience just the other evening at a gathering of a bunch of my old grade school friends who were all Jews. Not all of then, but the majority voiced intensely emotional fear and hatred of all Muslims everywhere. When I tried to reason with them it went nowhere, worse I was. accused of being a traitor for wanting to see them as human beings not any different in any respect then any other human being. So much for the much vaunted Jewish cultural tradition of tolerance.

The film has become a touchstone for discussion on campuses. When it was shown on the UC Santa Cruz campus, there was an effort to block the screening, but the campus leaders responded that this was out of bounds, and the film gave them an opportunity to assert that the debate should be permitted. There have to be people willing to make controversial films and to defend them even if there are disagreements. We were particularly impressed when professors who didn’t agree with us invited us to their campuses because they wanted an arena for a discussion that many people were scared to join–or because so many people were turning off to the whole question of Jewish identity, the occupation, etc. because of the intimidation.

Your question about protecting free speech is so relevant to this election too – we see individual donors determining what is acceptable speech in the Jewish community, and we see it in politics. In fact the same guy – Sheldon Adelson – seems to pop up whenever we have this conversation!

The movie makes it clear that the strong vein of progressive and radical politics continues in Jewish culture… but Deborah and Alan, how do you think someone can preach ‘tolerance’ while at the same time desecrating a graveyard to build a Holocaust museum? Any insights from your interviews?

yes that seems like a crucial part of the academic tradition which is also under threat today!

Sanity about Israel in either party? Not much, I’m afraid. I think that the Democrats are pretty much trying to show that they agree with Israel about just about everything except maybe a strike at Iran in the immediate future. The Obama administration seems to be giving only lip service to the idea of a two state solution in the face of an Israeli government hellbent on continued occupation. Even the word “occupation” is now becoming a no-no. When people at screening said that to us, we told them that they are creating a linguistic line in the sand to avoid listening to people who use language they don’t like.
The Republicans have eliminated any and all critical thought about Mideast politics in an attempt to out pro-Israel Obama and other Democrats. They are clearly breaking with past ideas that Palestinians are a people who also deserve a state.

Ah yeah he’s beginning to seem like the supervillain of the moment…

OK, so that’s the attack from the right and it’s getting more intense within many Jewish circles, but there is another attack on Jews that many of us who are Progressive Jews have also been fending off and that is from the left and it’s even more disturbing at times.

Emotions on this are really amped up and unfortunately fueled by political interests. In the film we tell a story about the Los Angeles Museum of Tolerance planning to build a museum on an historic Muslim cemetery in the heart of Jerusalem. How ironic is that? But it underlines your point about the degree to which respect and tolerance have faded away. Our core teachings were about protecting the poor, welcoming the stranger, and liberating the oppressed but new teachings have replaced these ideas.

I really appreciate the way your film is so open … that such diverse voices speak in it – that space as you’re discussing has been vanishing from our communities.

It’s hard for me to understand the doublethink which goes into this type of viewpoint.

Thanks for this topic tonight. From all that I have read, the likudniks will not stop until every single Palestinian has been killed or driven from the land that the right wing govt has determined Israel to be. That seems to be parts of other nations where “security” territory is.

It seems to me that Israel will not stop until that objective has been reached. Before the internet and cell phones, the msm had total control of the news coming out of Israel so that the idf and the Jewish population at large could be shown always to be taking the compassionate way with the Palestinians. Now it can be seen that the idf and the settlers can be as vicious as anyone and they don’t want anyone to see that.

We cover Occupy Wall Street a lot on here and I took a screen capture of a wonderful Communist parade float (where are those in the Macy’s parade now???) with a wall street-related message from the 1930s.

Did you do any research on the involvement of radical and liberal Jews in the Occupy movement?

I appreciated that too, and liked how actively involved Deborah in particular seemed so engaged in some of the interviews.

It’s not an accident that the title of our film is “Between Two Worlds”. We often feel we’re between tradition and change, between left and right. The section of our film that explores Alan’s mom’s Communist past shows how thoughtless people can become when following a rigid dogma. And how brutal their leaders can be, whether on the right or left. But that story also shows how American Jews have had a history of following the lead of zealots whether it was in the Soviet Union in the past or in Israel today.

Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Los Angeles Museum of Tolerance is building a sister museum in downtown Jerusalem on part of the site of the city’s historic Muslim cemetery. The irony seemed overwhelming to us, and it raised the question about using victimization to justify hypocrisy. In the film, another rabbi, Irwin Kula, says that the response to victimization is often to circle the wagons, go tribal and insular, considering everyone else as an enemy. This is a big contrast to the history of American Jews who have engaged in coalitions for civil and human rights, but those coalitions have withered and the tradition is under attack. To build a museum on someone else’s graveyard when we would consider that to be an anti-Semitic act when done against us is a testament to the insensitivity that occurs when victims gain power. Jews are latecomers to this game, but everyone plays it now.

What was your collaborative process like as two artists working together? How did you divide up which work?

The irony there is so strong it seems too good to be true. This part of the movie got a strong reaction from me!

Yes! I realized too – as I watched – that I made certain assumptions as the film began and then had to consider my reaction as the film was so anti-dogmatic (if I can put it that way). There’s important value in just the tone as well as in the topic.

Every nation has these kinds of debates going on where groups are trying to sort out their relationship to each other and the U.S. certainly is no different. Look at how huge the debate on Latino immigrants is in this country today as an example. Jews within Israel are having the same debate about Arab Israelis and their role within the State and it’s relationship to Palestinian Arabs and other Arab groups and nations. When I hear people try and reduce the debate down to simple religious or Nat’l identities and say everyone in these groups feels or thinks one way it drives me crazy, because I know other wise from actual experience. The range of opinions is as diverse as the populations of these places are.

WE haven’t done research on Jewish involvement in Occupy, but we know a lot of Jews who support the movement’s general aims. One thing we did notice was that some of the largest Occupy-like movements in the world occurred in Israel in 2011. Some 300,000 people–Jews of all kinds, Palestinian Israelis, and all religious groups in Israel participated in tent cities and demonstrations about the 99% vs the 1%. Often that gets overlooked, especially because many people on the left are uncomfortable acknowledging progressive activist efforts in Israel.
It will be interesting to see how the movement evolves in the US and how the Jewish community reacts. There are now lots of progressive Jewish groups like Bend the Arc and Jews for Racial and Economic Justice in NY and Jewish Council on Urban Affairs that have been engaged on many of the economic issues for a long time, and we hope they are becoming a growing core of activist engagement on Occupy issues.

But also it seems that within Israel a much broader discussion is possible than here. When I see some of the coverage in Haaretz for example, I know no one here in the mainstream can go that far. Amira Haas for example would not be published here it seems to me!

We are very collaborative – I think that’s the nature of film. We also worked with many other fantastic folks who helped in the creative and intellectual process – editors,scholars, our composer, etc. A lot of research, debate, dreaming, goes into the process. We had several other stories we were following that didn’t make it into the final cut, and it was hard to let those go too. The film was hard to make, hard to fund, etc so having a partner in the process is very helpful!

Yes thank you for reminding us about the very large scale Israeli protest encampments.

What was your favorite story you had to cut?

Thanks for your comment, Siun. We did work hard to make the film accessible. So much of debate now on the Internet, on radio and in our communities resembles the echo chamber. People are not talking to people they disagee with or might have to compromise with. But that’s what politics and political organizing are all about. If we’re only talking to ourselves, we will lose. I think this is a process that have been a real Bain (sic) on the political left where we live. It’s also boring, but it seems the culture has become aimed at listening to only those who affirm what we already think. This was a real challenge for us, and we wanted to hear people out.

I agree, but I think that’s more of a function of the general narrowing of the parameters of discussion within our Corporatist / M$M these days.

And a last question from me, did you use any crowdfunding like Kickstarter to make the film possible?

We wanted to include more in intermarriage! We were exploring everything from the Book of Ruth (which we love) to the experiences of young adults going on Birthright Israel trips. We live in a diverse, open society and inter-faith, inter-religious marriage and relationships are so common.. and difficult for so many! The face of the Jewish community is changing – and we welcome that, but at the same time we don’t deny it’s complicated and challenging.

Thanks for that question! We didn’t use Kickstarter, and we’re still fundraising! People can go to our website: http://www.btwthemovie.org for more info on the film, how they can contribute, etc. Also, the film will be broadcast on Free Speech Television Sunday Nov. 9th, 7pm eastern/4pm pacific.

Those seemed like juicy topics while watching. I can imagine how hard it was to cut that.

Yes, there is a lot of debate inside Israel, but what we show in the film is that even in Israel the debate is being crushed. There are efforts underway at the legislative level in the Knesset to selectively tax groups that support grassroots efforts on human rights inside Israel or in the occupied territories.
Haaretz is a wonderful paper, but they are struggling to survive and they have a small readership.
Nevertheless, we are hopeful that voices of witness can go beyond that to be organizing centers for people wanting to reach out for change, for mutual recognition.
It won’t be easy and hopefully it won’t require real disasters to make that change, but we see it as one of the tests of Jewish culture and Israeli culture.

Big thanks to Alan Snitow and Deborah Kaufman for making Between Two Worlds so engaging and thought provoking. And also for joining us tonight for an equally thought provoking discussion. I very much enjoyed this.

And thanks Firedoglake fans for joining us tonight on FDL Movie Night. Be sure to check out this film if you haven’t seen it already.

I really hope you continue to explore this whole area – the film is wonderful (and enjoyable!) and we need that dialogue encouraged and nurtured!

Thanks so much for the film and your work.

Great! I hope our readers will check out the website & watch the screening if they can!

Thank you!

Agreed!

Thanks Kit for hosting (and thanks always to Bev and Lisa for bringing us such great topics.

Thanks so much Alan and Deborah!