“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist.” Dom Hélder Pessoa Câmara, Archbishop of Olinda and Recife, also known as the ‘Bishop of Corum’
- “The promenades of Geneva and Zurich may seem a world away from the protests and turmoil plaguing the streets of Athens. But, with the European sovereign-debt crisis going rapidly from bad to worse, concerns are growing about the economic impact on Switzerland if the Greeks ditch the euro.”
- “Shares in Spanish banks have tumbled as the country’s prime minister expressed concern over rising borrowing costs amid fears that it could be the next country sucked into the eurozone debt crisis. Bankia, which said over the weekend that it was seeking further state funds to stay afloat, slumped by more than 13 per cent on the Madrid stock exchange while Banco Popular fell 7.50 per cent and CaixaBank dropped 5.09 per cent.”
- “The euro zone crisis boils along, like a tea kettle left screaming on the stove. Another summit of European leaders last week failed to resolve the crushing questions of Greece and how to square the circle between austerity and growth (aside to Europe’s leaders — you can’t. It’s one or the other).”
- “China has opened up its banking system to private-sector investors, the latest move by Beijing aimed at underpinning economic growth.”
- “Since the introduction of doi moi (renovation) policy in 1986, Vietnam’s economic growth has lifted millions out of abject poverty. Increasingly, however, the country’s growth and development trajectories are showing signs of distress. Macro instability, increasing inequality, lurking environmental problems and simmering public discontent are putting Hanoi under rising pressure to change.”
- “Students in Quebec are to meet with the province’s education minister to resume talks over a proposed tuition fee hike that have sparked widespread protest.”
- Robert Fisk: “Bashar al-Assad will get away with it. He got away with Deraa. He got away with Homs. And he’ll get away with Houla. So will the armed opposition to the regime, along with al-Qa’ida and any other outfits joining in Syria’s tragedy. Yes, this may be the critical moment, the “tipping point” of horror, when Baathist collapse becomes inevitable rather than probable. And dear Mr Hague may be “absolutely” appalled. The UN, too. We all are.”
- “Greg Spencer, a 27-year-old from San Diego, Calif. was on holiday in Uganda with his dad four years ago when he found his calling. ‘I was just a year out of college and I wanted to be involved in a cool, challenging and innovative business,’ he said.”
- “On Location: Peruvian indigenous group fights to save their dying language.”
- “The Rev. Dr. Franklyn Richardson longs for the old days, when all it took was Sunday sermons by African-American ministers to fire up their flocks to get registered and vote in local, state and federal elections.”
- “After demonstrators were arrested and roughed up in an unsuccessful attempt to march to McCormick Place on Sunday, I thought it would be interesting to check in with Mel Rothenberg. He has the distinction of leading the only demonstration that succeeded in marching to the International Ampitheatre, where the Democratic National Convention was being held, in 1968.”
- TRNN: “AFRICOM Expands Mission In Africa. Maurice Carney: A U.S.-based unit has been selected as the Army’s first “regionally aligned” brigade, and by next year its soldiers could begin conducting operations in Africa.”
- Prof Richard Wolff’s weekly Economic Update for 26 May.
The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off.




244 Comments





Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Good Morning All…sure is a work day….;)
Good morning everyone.
Thanks for the post SouthernDragon.
Good morning! I have a Dr. appointment later so I get to hang out here for a bit. This should creep any fan of zombie movies out. Heck, it will creep anybody out but for those of us who are fans of George Romero, YIKES!
Thanks, SD. No doubt austerity doesn’t appeal any less to the right wing for its absolute inability to bring recovery about, seeing as how just keeping working people from supporting themselves counteracts any possible economic benefit to the whole economy, for ideologues.
Yeah, man, that’s some weird stuff there.
I saw a bumper sticker the other day that I think you’d appreciate:
The only reason that Greece is a “crushing question” is because Germany is using the GOP definition of compromise. They couldn’t take the continent militarily so now they’re doing it economically.
Good morning, freedom-lovers. Can I get a cup of coffee, and a side-order of face? (h/t to Margaret)
I hope the voter laws really inspire folks to get out…Sounds like the African-American groups are pushing back. Let’s hope.
Mornin’, pups
Soooo danged hungry! I gotta give some blood to the vampire so I’m in the last stages of a 24 hour fast. UGH!
Good morning all.
Speaking of pushback, something seriously has to happen in Florida with the voter disenfranchisement going on. There needs to be a Federal investigation regarding the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act.
Think the Justice Dept. will have the guts to follow up…Nah.
I wish the LGBT community would be more active! I sure do know a lot of people in that community who refuse to vote, even in local elections. They think they’re sticking it to society but all they are sticking it to is everybody who does care.
Morning peoples. On this the day after Hurry for WAR Day.
Let’s not forget though with all else that’s going on, that Unpleasantness in The Pacific.
….
Yes it just keeps getting better and better.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/05/28-1
Shafiq is the U.S. backed candidate in Egypt?
I’ve been wondering where Holder is among the mounting evidence that Florida’s purge is designed to disenfranchise a certain group, (specifically Democratic voters), and is riddled through and through with errors. I’m sure he’s doing something important though, like putting cancer patients in prison for smoking pot.
Time to think up what is the thing you most like, to start off with. Gets me through those fasts, anyway.
I think I’ll stop at Furrs when my appointment is done. Have a full meal of it.
On CNN, we’re being told that there is natural radioactivity in the environment, just negligible that we’re getting a multiple of 10 over normal rates of radioactivity in tuna off California. Have the sushi!
Good morning, everyone.
As always, thank you SD, for having such a swell joint waiting for us each week-day morning
And a belated happy birthday, rc, you young pup!
DW
Sounds right; a little of absolutely everything is my plate.
There’s plenty of pushback from people who have gotten the state’s letter. Many are citizens and can prove it. The state sent an outdated driver’s registration list to the election supervisors and the errors are showing up everywhere. Do I smell a class action lawsuit?
Over the weekend my congressman, Thad McCotter (MI-11), turned into a national joke*. His campaign failed to submit the required 1,000 signatures needed to get him on the ballot for the August primary. it’s been at least 50 years since an incumbent member of Congress failed to qualify for the ballot.
* His antics, including a presidential run that was shorter than Kim Kardashian’s marriage, have already made him a regional joke.
As Gov. Scott continues with his actions, I have not heard a thing about any pushback coming from the Justice Dept. on this issue.
You sure are right about the screwed up priorities of Holder.
Considering what happened in 2000, I would think that these actions of taking away potential democratic votes should be a front burner issue.
Kind of gives a whole knew meaning to Chicken of the sea, don’t it.
Sounds like Egyptian election (democracynow coverage) was completely corrupt. Jimmy Carter loved it.
Muslim Brotherhood sold out. Color me surprised (not).
Good morning everyone. The heat broke overnight and it’s sunny and cool. Perfect for drinking my tea on my freshly power-washed screened porch.
RC, I left you a happy birthday very late on yesterday’s thread. Hope it was good.
Yep. Without that pushback from citizens, most of us may not even know about it. I was hoping for something more official though.
Thanks for weighing in on this issue SouthernDragon.
You are in a position to know the every day battles going on in Florida.
Appreciate your input!
Mine too. I haven’t been to Furrs in ages but it used to be almost an Austin legend.
Hot tuna.
No one can beat me in My Congressman is a Joke dept. Ralph Hall accused a victim of Marianas sex slave trade of having weak character, on the floor of the House. After his trip to the Marianas for frreeee on Abramoff’s tab.
You’re scaring my fowl that they might be befouled.
I’ll bet people like Lanny Davis, Paul Begala and Rahm Emanuel have convinced him that they don’t need Florida and they don’t wanna “rock the boat” by doing anything controversial like defending peoples’ liberties from their capricious and partisan legislators.
Ewwwww. Now I don’t want any breakfast. YUK.
I want one of those!
I’ll ask my friend where she got it.
Carter thinks Egyptian military will become like U.S. military within a couple of years.
What’s the diff?
Even McCotter couldn’t top that. His best effort was equating Catholics United, who favored S-CHIP extension, to Satan. That performance earned him “Worst Person in the World” honors from Keith Olbermann.
Have we gotten a new Presnitential uniform on the design board yet?
In Egypt, the MIC is up front and unapologetic about running things, while in the US it’s done more covertly?
I think you meant “hurray” but that works too. I have given up trying to follow all of the wars we keep getting ourselves into, courtesy of our prez and his military industrial complex buddies.
Ding.
Those three names just ruined my appetite for breakfast.
We have to contend with Rahm in the news quite frequently here in Illinois.
I wonder if the people of Chicago are sick enough of him to make him a one term Mayor?
In the 2008 primary I voted against Hillary Clinton because I didn’t want the likes of Davis, Begala, and Emanuel anywhere near the White House. Clinton lost the primary, and guess who wound up running the Democratic Party.
I think it needs a sash. And bloused trousers over riding boots. Let’s get all Napoleon and shit.
Oh, that’s just the beginning. Some recent news:
1) The core of reactor #2 COMPLETELY liquified. It is now sitting on the final concrete barrier. TEPCO says there’s at least 20cm of concrete left. Based on their best guesses on the amount of heat the melt has applied so far and the assumption that the concrete was laid according to specs. Naturally, no 3d party groundwater samples are available.
2) The SPF in #4 is being held in place by redneck engineering. A minor quake would be all it would take. See, they’re telling us that there’s no danger of the pool falling, but all it has to do is spring a larger leak. It’s already leaking, but not to fast to replace the water. If those rods are uncovered and catch fire, there’s NOTHING to prevent the smoke from spreading.
3)The amount of destruction in reactor #4 (and probably #1) makes their timeline for cleanup a joke. The original plan was for the work in the SPF in #4 to begin in Dec 2013(2013 is not typo) but with all the rubble that’s impossible.
4) We are starting to see radiation higher up in the food chain. Tuna tested from American waters has been shown to be impacted, though the readings are well below what the government considers safe.
5) The Government still will not allow independent sampling. You may draw you own conculsions as to why.
Boxturtle (Does your sushi taste different lately?)
Same place he always is. Hiding in his office, screaming “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU”.
Boxturtle (Bet if I was Jamie, his hearing would improve)
I don’t know what Furrs is, but I’m guessing it’s a local diner. That’s what I always do right after one of those annual physical fasts. Except my doc usually only says “nothing after midnight” instead of 24 hours.
The idea, of course, makes me much more ravenous than usual when I rarely eat between midnight and 8 a.m. or so.
I’m hep, I’ve been paying attention. The only one I’m aware of who didn’t immediately suck up to Obama after Clinton lost was Penn. But it’s very likely that he’s still up to his armpits in Democratic Party strategy.
Can’t expose them Wall Street nul-cle-ur people to any bad publis-so-tee.
Yay! That’s two appetites I’ve ruined! Misery loves company! No, seriously, I didn’t mean to put anybody off food.
I think it should be a more Banana Republic style. Uniform, sash, lots of big medals, etc.
Thank you, DW, my cherished friend. And it’s not really belated, maybe you just gave it time to breathe before serving lol.
And if he wins, it will prove how well it works.
And if he loses, it will be because of all those bad, bad lefties who voted third party.
I saw that, and responded. Thank you again, m’dear. ;-)
Whatever happens, we can rest assured that they’ll get exactly the wrong message.
Gotta get going and do some errands.
Margaret, I hope you have a very good breakfast after the Dr. appt.
Have a great day everyone and thank you for the great conversation this morning.
Yes. The joke is really on us, isn’t it, for our pathetic desire to believe that they really, really, want to understand us?
Since the beginning of the age of nuclear power plants, there have been two level seven events. One was in Chernobyl, the second at Fukushima. After all of the lying and rosy scenarios, I’m thinking sepuku might be an option.
Things to do, thanks for good company.
I also wonder whether, and how, Penn got the millions of dollars the Clinton campaign owed him from 2008.
I wish that was all it is. I think the data would show that #2 has melted through the concrete and into the groundwater. I think it would also show that #1 is NOT cold, but still having issues with localized criticality.
So I think they are trying to simply avoid panic. And I also think they couldn’t evac an area as large as would be impacted.
There’s also a HUGE amount of hot water going into the Pacific. No indepentent testing in Japans territorial waters, though. They admit to some. But if you calculate the amount of water used vs the amount of water stored, you end up with quite a difference.
Boxturtle (And Obama has approved NEW reactors in America. Idiot)
I didn’t go back to look. I was so far in the EPU weeds by then that I didn’t bother.
We’re going to need to establish a Level 8 to cover Fukushima. And that’s assuming that things don’t get worse.
Fukushima could kill Japan as a country and a culture. That’s not an exaggeration. If the SPF in #4 goes, so does Tokyo.
Boxturtle (Where would they evac Tokyo to that isn’t already full?)
The Japanese govt may just let nature take its course, i.e. let the radiation kill Tokyo. So much easier than moving people.
I said the same thing when so many people were out to “punish” the Democrats in 2010: Vote for whomever you want but don’t for one second believe that it will cause the Democrats to do anything other than behave even more like Republicans. That’s the message they always take. That’s what happens when peoples’ perception stops at the win/lose column and they don’t dig into the numbers and the reasons behind them. Anybody who has been limited to reading newspapers might believe that paper only comes in white and the weight of newsprint. That’s not the case but expecting these people to look beyond the most superficial is a fool’s hope. And since my predictions have come true, the punish the Democrats crowd blows even more crap at me. I guess it’s true that it’s easier to forgive somebody for being wrong than to forgive them for being right.
Shikoku, Hokkaido and Kyushu aren’t nearly as populous as Honshu. There is good reason for that though as the ground isn’t as arable or suitable for dwellings.
On the Beach ?
But the fear of TPTB is not that people could not adjust to life without readily available energy, it is that people could and would adjust.
Or we could have done a lot more to find suitable alternatives but the oil lobby manages to crush anything resembling a sustainable, non fossil fuel based solution. I imagine that Japan’s nuke industry does the same thing there. Doing without readily available energy can be done but it isn’t even necessary. The energy companies would prefer that though to somebody else becoming profitable in what the see as their industry.
If voting for Democrats makes them move to the right, and not voting for Democrats makes them move to the right, what is one to do?
Earlier this year I let my state party membership expire and decided not to run for another term as precinct delegate. Unless someone offers me a convincing reason not to–and “Obama sucks less than Romney” isn’t convincing–I plan to vote third party.
Really not surprising, if you remember that today’s Democrats are Republicans.
Heh, they really punished the Dems, didn’t they? Here we ended up with (P)rick Scott as a result. Alex Sink wasn’t the greatest candidate in the world but we wouldn’t be going through what Scott and the Regressives are putting us through.
You may be right. The government is (or was) activly encouraging citizens NOT to buy personal radiation detectors. Offically because they’re not accurate or because they fear the citizens will misread them.
There HAVE been hotspots found in Tokyo, but the government cleans them up quickly and considers them to be isolated instances.
Boxturtle (How many isolated instances makes a pattern?)
I don’t have the answer to that and I’ve always said I don’t have the answer to that. I’m just saying that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is just foolish. You’ve gotta do what you feel is right but pretending that not voting for Democrats will cause them to behave in a more progressive fashion is similar to pretending that marriage equality is somehow going to destroy religion.
Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.
US KIA Afghanistan: 1,986
Afghan, Iraki, Yemeni and Pakistani casualties: estimates vary to over 1.5M
US MBS 2012: 18,476 and counting
No war but class war
Little Broken Hearts
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things
Namaste
Never. Give. Up.
LOL
Japan has energy enough without nukes. Just move aluminium smelting and other such refinery work to third shift when the generators are almost idle.
But aluminium smelters donate to policials campaigns, as to other high energy industries that might not want to move work to 3d shift.
Boxturtle (They’d really prefer that people convserve when industry needs the power)
Yep. Great example. They “punished” the Democrats by electing Voldemort. Well done. I’m not advocating that people vote Democratic in a reflexive manner, nor that they vote Democratic at all. Just pointing out that “punishing” Democrats under our system always = rewarding Republicans. It’s not an insane leap for the blindered politicians to get from that the belief that people aren’t supporting Democrats because they weren’t “conservative” enough. I mean, that’s obviously wrong too but the pols aren’t anymore guilty for taking the wrong message than the punish the Dems people are of assuming they’ll get the right one. In both cases they are behaving reflexively and without accounting for the complexity of the world.
I think (and hope) there is room BOTH for you to be right about 2010 AND for there to be a point at which people pressure actually prevails. I think that all the political and economic actors are acting in furtherance of their own core interests, and can easily discern the difference between those personal interests of their own, as opposed to the interests of the People or the Republic. They seem to not understand us only because their interests are not perceived by them as being aligned with ours. They understand us, they will just never agree with us. Perhaps the answer is that the People need to start doing a better job of understanding where their own self-interest lies?
It strikes me that one way of pushing back is to send in the names of identifiable Republican voters. I doubt very much that the Florida government has a screen. It would completely bollox the plan to disenfranchise Democrats. The first time one of those red-neck crackers gets a letter from the State telling him or her she isn’t legal (putting him or her in the same category as the despised brown people) there will be hell to pay.
Morning pups and SD. We were treated this morning to an electrical storm that lasted four hours. I more or less slept through it, but it was like a never-ending 1812 Overture. Now it is clear as a bell.
As to the Quebec student strike, negotiations are coming to a head today and tomorrow. The Grand Prix is in two weeks, and the business community are putting big pressure on the government to settle before the tourists decide they’d rather stay home. As to the demonstrations themselves, one of the journalists for La Presse reminded us that this is how democracy works. It’s not just something people do every three or four years, and then it’s back to normal with government’s and lobbies determining what happens without any effective feedback. This has been a very big shock to the local PTB, who are used to getting what they want by funding elections under the table (laws are strict here so straight over the table funding is tightly constrained). The symphony of pots was out last night again between 8 and 8:15 pm.
There is some speculation that the government will call a snap election. It’s a risky move, but they don’t have many left.
I think that’s certainly part of it. IMO, it was vapidity and apathy that has brought us to this pass. One day the pols will go too far and then the most sleepy among us will wake up. Dunno when that will happen or what form it will take but happen it will.
BTW: As far as I’m concerned being “right” isn’t the goal I had in mind. My goal has always been just this: To dispel and add some balance to the prevailing opinion that punishing Democrats will mean a better world. It’s never worked before and I have no reason to believe that strategy will suddenly start to be effective. People just go home after “voting the bums out”, viscerally satisfied at “stickin’ it to” the people they blame for the woes of the world and that sort of visceral need to punish doesn’t brook any invasion by the reality that in many cases, people are just making it worse for themselves. Again, Florida is a wonderful example. Have any of the remaining, (surviving), Democrats there begun to behave more progressively? How about Harry Reid in Nevada? Has he become more aggressive with Senate Republicans in anything but rhetoric since his narrow victory? Clearly that answer is a resounding “no”. Rather than reflexively punishing Democrats, people need to first take into account what the alternatives are and proceed from there. When the alternative is more progressive, then by all means, vote for them, I’ll lead the way but when the alternative is Voldemort, it just doesn’t make any sense to elect such a person just to spite the other party.
The majority of the names submitted to the election supervisors were Hispanic. My county, Pinellas, got a list with something like 2700 names on it. While Deb Clark, the election supervisor, is a Republican she’s been on the up and up since day one. She’s fought Tallahassee on a number of issues where the Regressives have tried to suppress the vote in some way or another. It’s early in the process and the cw is that this is gonna come back to bite Scott in the ass, as some of his cheap shit already has.
Has anyone here considered that they might be wrong as to where the politcal mean lies on the left-right political spectrum?
Consider the upcoming Governor’s race in Wisconsin. At this point the polls are indicating Walker will win by a bigger margin than his initial election.
Yes, we can scream about Democratic pols. They deserve it. But, in my estimation, the biggest problem for the Left is the mean ideology of the electorate.
Good morning Margaret, just so you know, I was merely funnin’ ya on the last thread. You do realize that?
Yes?
;~DW
Inflexible ideologues are the right’s biggest weakness. Look at the repugs: They don’t dare step outside party doctrine. I’m not sure that’s the left’s biggest weakness though. Ideologues surely play a part but I’ll never view things in such stark terms. The world’s not black and white.
I was hoping so. I like you and respect you but I’ve somehow gotten an undeserved reputation as a reflexive Democratic supporter and I need to push back on that every time it’s suggested, even in fun.
And please don’t try to peddle that “both sides do it” false equivalency crap. That’s like saying that a Boeing 747 and a Beechcraft Bonanza are the same thing.
Gotta go see my Dr so I can have some FOOD!
Laters!
Well, I am very aware of the fact that you are NOT a reflexive D-supporter, Margaret, and understand your chagrin when encountering the slander, for such it would feel to me. So, please accept my apology for appearing to be of the ilk inclined to such besmirching. My snark tag did not make it from me mind (as was intended, if not implied) to me fingertips … synapse collapse within the old noodle, no doubt.
Frankly, humor, is a tool we all must wield with some care … although massive derision of the elite seems not only more and more appropriate, but necessary. It is also effective, for their skins are extremely thin.
DW
Thanks for that. And indeed their skins are exceedingly thin as one would expect from a pack of narcissists.
Margaret @ 88 & 90
I have no idea what you are talking about.
As to your “the world’s not black and white” comment, I referenced the political spectrum. That is not a manicheistic concept.
As to your “false equivalencty crap” comment, say what?
Using fear, uncertainty, doubt, and anger to divide the 99% is what 1% money in politics does. In Wisconsin, you are seeing the effects of unprecedented propagandizing by the Koch Brothers and others in state and local races. They very much want to slam the door on any reversal of their “reforms”.
The effectiveness of money in the success of candidates puts folks who do not support the 1% in a critical situation: abandon their principles in order to be elected and do whatever they can at the margins or stick to their principles and not be elected because of the propaganda shitstorm.
As long as the US political culture is driven by the corporate mass media, this is where we are stuck.
That is why a revolution in the political culture is a precondition for electorally defeating the representatives of the 1%.
The public is being massively lied to. Until there are alternative media that have wide audiences and can report what is really going on, we will get more of what we already have. That is why the Occupy movement wants folks to turn off the tubes and get into the streets and talk. It is also why reporting on Twitter and Facebook and livestreams have become attempts to end-run the corporate media.
Moreover, sixty-some-odd years of McCarthyist, John Birch, and other propaganda have encouraged the public to believe the lies. The 1%, for all the sturm and drang about Islamic terrorism, is still trying to preserve a failed capitalism.
I am always in favor of getting a more balanced analysis, and never question your good faith when arguing a point. I think we are (finally) getting to where we will have more nuanced discusson of the LOTE/third party issue. My thought right now is, why don’t those urging to vote Obama this time never seem to even pay lip service to the obvious wisdom and desirability of actively building toward a third party option as a long-term strategy? Especially if the Dem Party is understood to be as intractable as you yourself posit? It seems to me that this is a wedge point in the discussion, no?
I confess I feared you might be one of those reflexive Dem supporters months ago, but I have long since disabused myself of that mistaken notion. I see now that we are in a very similar position, per your comment above, except that I think the need for third party options is so obvious that it should be a primary goal for all of us. I don’t get how the fatalism of your belief that the Dem Party will never break its pattern can co-exist with a belief that we can ever do ANYTHING to further our basic political goals as progressives, absent an additional choice.
Well said, TD!
DW
THD @95
Yes, the things you reference, money and the corporate media, play a significant role in where the political mean lies on the left-right spectrum. Conceding this does not defeat my suggestion that the political mean on the left-right spectrum is to the right of where most folks who comment here place it. It simply explains it, in part.
Too many are simply afraid to NOT continue to support the Ds, rc.
Were the R’s to “win”, then many fear that things will be worse, that the wars will continue, that money will be served, that the economy will not be dealt with to the benefit of the many, and that the National Security State will attack the people, that the executive will assume arbitrary powers of life and death over all of us … that dissent will be circumscribed to protect the political class as it allows the depredations of the elites to continue unabated … that Social Security, the broader “safety net”, and the Social Contract will be dismantled …
THAT kind of frightening “stuff”.
Which, of course, could never happen if the D’s retain “control”.
Too soon, both political parties may be perceived as private entities which seek to influence and “control” public realities, the public itself, and all aspects of the people’s lives.
Imagine that.
DW
I think some of the confusion comes from people wanting for others to vote for a 3rd party when a nationally viable 3rd party does not currently exist. How many states will have Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson or Stewart Alexander on their ballots this cycle? Unless and until we have a nationally viable 3rd party those who vote for whatever 3rd party appears on the ballot last cycle or this cycle will be casting a protest vote, a protest vote neither the Dems nor the Regs give one whit about because the numbers are too small. What will the Green Party or the Justice Party or any other 3rd party do after this election? Most will pack up their bags, go home and wait for the next cycle. Will the Greens, easily the most recognizable alternative, be able to break the big money game and form a truly progressive party? We don’t know. Will those who want to punish the Dems put their time, energy and money into a viable 3rd party? Or will they continue to think that the Dems will someday get the message?
That is one of the hazards of living in progressive strongholds, even in states like Wisconsin–the assumption that the mean of opinion around you generally applies to the state or country at large.
I am just cautioning against blaming the public that you want to disenthrall from the propaganda. That strategy condemns you to be a permanent minority. My sense is that too many on the left are comfortable being a permanent minority, and that for me is a problem when there is so much going down the tubes.
We don’t have a nationally viable third party precisely because the folks who want one only begin their efforts the year before the Presidential election. Where is the continuity of effort to build a third party from the grassroots up? Nationally, and not just in some specialized enclaves?
Third party folks should be thinking about 2014 as a springboard to 2016. Instead they are wasting time complaining about the duopoly politics of 2012. And it’s been that way for forty-four years.
Your point is well taken but the Democrats (the entire leadership of the party, including “progressives”) are now in free fall towards the right and I don’t think the results of elections even matter to them any more.
(Donning my tinfoil hat)
Voting for a 3rd party is exactly what the Republic establishment would like you to do, take your vote away from the Dems.
Again, very well said, TD.
Frankly, to argue that it is “the people” who are “mean” and proponents of the right in large numbers, when actually talking to people suggests very much otherwise, at a time when the current executive claims the power to kill any one of us, anywhere and anytime … which can hardly be considered a “leftist perspective … seems, to me, to be polemical nonsense in the extreme.
I recently spent several weeks speaking with scores of people, wherever and whenever I encountered them, and very few, fewer that I can count on one hand, were ignorant of what is going on and in favor of war, austerity, and a lousy health care system. The common sentiment is that there needs to be SERIOUS consequence for the banksters, for the political class as a whole, and that neither political party has the interests of the people at heart.
That is profoundly NOT right-wing and it IS evidence of substantial “engagement” … the problem is that too many human beings are, as yet, unaware of the fact that there ARE alternatives … viable and necessary alternatives, not merely candidates but ideas.
And that state of affairs, as you properly suggest, IS NO ACCIDENT. It has been orchestrated, deliberately and intentionally, for decades.
What “we” now have is opportunity … and NOT an entrenched right-wing political mindset among the people … despite what oldgold, who, as a lawyer, should be appalled at the blatantly un-Constitutional Obama-Holder assertion of the power to kill any of us, without due process, believes and wishes to have the rest of us “believe”.
Now, let us be very honest in considering “who or “what” is “right-wing” … the people or the current administration, indeed the virtual entirety of the political class?
Ah, well …
DW
Knocking them out of the park today, TD!!!
Nothing like last-minute seriousness.
Long-term?
Hard, slogging effort?
Blood, sweat, and tears?
Oh No!!!
;~DW
IMO, that is not the only or most important barrier to Creating a viable Progressive party. The first barrier is psychological. People are used to the idea of a two party system, and until a large number of voters are open to the possibility of leaving the current parties behind, there will be no momentum.
And fearing abandonment of the Democratic party is what has allowed the relentless march to the right of the political discussion, and *that* is what our political elites want regardless of whatever party is in power.
Valid point about the current unavailability of a viable third party, and I take it. But doesn’t that just open the discussion up to the question of how much effort we need to put into getting a third party, in order that we should actually deserve to have one? A protest vote has some value, and so does non-cooperation with the Dems, but, ultimately, shouldn’t we be required to show some active zeal for having a thrid party option, and not just a zeal that only manifests itself when no elections are imminent?
What if we had a two party system with a strong progressive party on the left to replace the D party? I wonder if many of us would be satisfied with that? I’m not sure.
Very well and truly said, ysd.
And yet, if no one speaks of alternatives, of other ways of doing “things”, of thinking about “things” then how may hearts and minds be opened?
It will not happen over night, it cannot.
However, it surely will not happen unless alternative ideas and candidates are “available” for consideration.
That is why FDL plays such an important AND continuing role … it being one of the very few places, at the moment, where any of these alternatives are discussed or made available for consideration.
DW
You think that two choices, if they are real and actual choices, are sufficient, ysd?
It is less about choice than the opportunity of those two parties to collude in furthering the “interests” of those who make it worth their while.
Frankly, as long as money rules, any and every party may be, relatively easily, compromised, hijacked, or simply “bought out”.
And the money factor can ONLY be changed, as “things” are now “arranged”, BY the political parties … who control the reigns of “power”, and are themselves controlled by corporate monied “interests” … not to mention a compliant and complicit SCOTUS …
Of those things I am quite certain.
DW
A multiparty system would be best, IMO. Mostly, though, I just want to be legitimately represented.
That’s my point. All the 3rd party people go to ground once an election’s over and we don’t hear from them for another 3 years. If people want to make the Greens, or whoever, a viable 3rd party they’re gonna have to work at it every day, not just when an election is looming.
With the winner take all electoral college system we have, an even marginally successful liberal third party would have the effect of driving the executive and judicial brach further to the right. How would that be of any assistance to our current problems?
I don’t think you fully got my point, SD. Should it be left entirely to the now-identified 3d party advocates to construct a viable third party all by themselves to “save” all the unserved Dem voters, or should not those Dem voters, as much as anyone, have some responsibility to help and support efforts to build such a third party, i.e, they will be beneficiaries, why should they lay back now and do nothing or, worse, attack those who argue the necessity of having an additional electoral option?
Fine, so then let’s start a neo-Nazi third party, and that will drive voters to the left, right? (eye roll) At some point, we need to stop seeing ourselves as masters of the political mindfuckery game, and start pushing openly and directly for what we want.
I’m not interested in saving disenchanted Dems, or Regressives for that matter. My interest in a 3rd party is as an alternative to our current system, which in the long run would entail the abandonment of the electoral college as oldgold said. The people once demanded that Senators be elected rather than appointed by state legislatures. We can do the same thing with the electoral college. That said, people actually have to get out and work for these things. We’ve got to educate people to the fact that our current 2-party system sucks and has led us to the brink of disaster. Perhaps Occupy will help us develop a blueprint.
You are right, oldgold, the “system” we have makes all meaningful change impossible.
What does that suggest to you?
That we simply give up and vote for the Dems until they see the light?
Or …?
How very right you are; some people just simply are too set in their ways, are afraid, very afraid, of the risk of change and are sufficiently “comfortable” enough to have a vested interest in seeing that there is little or no change … impelling them, therefore, to try to save the rest of us from ourselves …
Hard to work up much enthusiasm for that … never mind appreciation.
Ah, well, in the meantime, let’s see how much worse it gets without the help of a “marginally successful liberal party”, shall we?
If we leave well enough alone, then things will get better, right?
And, if we try to change them, then things will get worse …
Okay, who tried to change things such that we have ended up “where” we are?
It must have been the election of Barack Obama, would that be right?
Ah, well …
;~DW
RC @ 118
You can eye roll all you like, but what I described is accurate.
The 1912 Electoral College results illustrates this. Taft [23.2%] and TR [27.4%] received a combined total of 50.6% of the popular vote and a combined total of 96 [18%] Electoral College votes. Wilson with 41.8% of the popular vote received 435 [82%] Electoral College votes.
With you re the electoral college. The disenchanted Dems will get “saved,” pragmatically speaking, by having a real third party option, my only point was really a moral one, as in, shouldn’t they have a moral obligation to help save their own asses, as opposed to being dismissive or taking cheap shots at those who want to try to make a third option available?
Spot on, SD.
WE have to do it.
IT won’t be easy … and some people might even die in the process.
THAT is how it is.
DW
The electoral college is an obsolete relic, and should be dispensed with in favor of more direct voter input. Most would agree with that, I think. We still have an individual responsibilty for what we choose to support (as in “vote for,”) don’t we?
Excellent comment, Margaret – apologies all for being late to the table here – I’ve missed some of the conversation through doing a perusal of all the excellent diaries posted. This is such an incredible site that I can only wonder, why on earth does it not give some attention to third parties, when overwhelmingly the comments suggest, and articles as well, that there is nothing positive happening with respect to the big boys? I am rather dumfounded by this glaring omission – there were a couple of posts during the weekend at MyFDL and part of my time has been taken up searching for those – a bit of info about Rocky and about Jill but that is now nowhere to be found.
I went to “Elections” there at the top – no, nothing. Now, Jill has qualified in many states to be on the ballot. Shouldn’t somebody who can post on these matters be doing so? I love this site, come to it first every day and read and read, but third parties might as well not exist.
That is not right.
With respect, Margaret, it was never about punishing the Democrats. People have withdrawn from the Democratic party, myself included, because they no longer represent what we believe in. I was a Democrat for Obama’s election, and for the Democratic majority in Congress as well. They did not do what I thought they stood for, so I changed parties. Belong to one now that seems to be ostracized on FDL, so that the only alternatives argued about are Republican and Democrat. There are other parties. Really and truly.
If your car doesn’t run, you don’t switch to the jalopy out there rusting in the field. And if it clearly can’t be fixed. time to get out that bicycle if you want to get somewhere.
Delicately put, realitychecker. Age begets wisdom.
I know people have got to be tired of me saying this but after the Lamont/ShortRide primary Jane decided to make the Lake more issue oriented than electoral politics oriented. Personally, I’d like it to stay that way. I am certainly opposed to the Lake becoming a voice for Stein, Anderson, Alexander or any other candidate. Given the system we have I’d much rather be discussing how we deal with Fukushima than whether Obama can win FL. There are more than enough sites for that horse race crap.
On edit: I have to agree with Margaret regarding punishing Dems. If 2010 wasn’t a shining example of that I don’t know what is. The numbers from FL alone speak for themselves.
Good questions, SD. Why not research and report, just as you do the Big Guys? That’s my question. Small does not mean unimportant, especially when many of the concerns FDL puts forward are espoused by one or another of these third party candidates. I submit that is an imperial standard, an exceptionalism position that does no credit to FDL. It’s as if the Big Parties are Too Big To Fail, just like the banks.
Oh my.
Keep reading.
Me too, had to google to find this, which I recall bc it was so recent.
Recently, Jon “Handicapper” Walker blogged about a pol showing that higher wage earners ($100K) prefer Romney over Obama. I commented that in 2000 Nader got more votes from that same income group than from any other income group. Admittedly, I still don’t know what my point was.
That is simply not true, SD. You have plenty of diaries focussing on what the main candidates are saying and how we disagree with them. Fine, also have some focussing on the lesser ones who are working hard to get noticed. That’s not political if you do it across the board. It is not a question of whether they can get elected; it is a question of their ideas and attempts to be noticed. That is huge, especially when we ARE discussing the co-option of the media and issues like that, where unions stand, etc. You are leaving out an admittedly small but important piece of the puzzle saying it is ‘politics’ when what is driving the increased viability of third parties is indeed ideas.
Okay, I can get banned if that is going to be it. It is starting to be very important. I voted for Ralph Nader because he did not get a place at the dialogue table – doesn’t have to be the candidates themselves – I’ll agree, that would be co-option. Endorsing a particular candidate would be co-option. But continuing to support the meme in all your diaries that we have no alternatives IS political.
As I said to Margaret, it is not about punishing the Democrats. It is indeed about ideas, so Jane ought to be for expanding the discussion. It well may be that there are pressures we don’t know about, but telling us we have no viable alternative choice when what we are being offered is very, very bad and we know it, badmouthing us for “punishing” democrats – these are not good arguments, sorry. There comes a point when what is off the table has to be put back on, and that is discussion about and by third party candidates!
Diaries are not front page columns. MyFDL exists just for that purpose. You can support whoever you like, write whatever you like at MyFDL.
We have this discussion about why the Lake doesn’t push 3rd parties at the mothership every goddamn election. It’s tiresome.
I wholeheartedly endorse that comment. ;-)
Fine, SD, it is your Diner and Jane’s forum. Nobody suggested giving politicians a platform. You asked questions that ought to be answered and I don’t have the answers, about the viability of third parties. They exist and they have made or not made advances into the electoral system in the attempt to be on ballots. I know very little about it except that Jill Stein is on New Mexico’s ballot, which is huge for me.
I too appreciate all the information this site has to offer. That’s why considering third parties as beneath your notice smacks to me of what happened in 2000. And when you do a wonderful job considering the alternatives to capitalism and such, it amazes me, frankly, that you don’t look at electoral alternatives.
We did have third party contributions to the political dialogue before 2000. Just because they didn’t get elected does not mean they were not an important part of the process. We’ve lost that. You could be helping restore it.
SD, FDL is “pushing” the major parties by discussing only them, and the Dem Party by only dissing Rethugs. This “not gonna be political” argument really does not hold water upon careful examination, Someone is getting politically benefited here, the question is why should only thid parties get excluded?
Reporting on them or giving them front page coverage isn’t the same as pushing them, is it? The fact that we have this discussion every election should tell us something. Diaries are great, and I read them. I’d still like to have some reporting, by our regular posters.
DW:
I never said that and do not believe it.
I agree, SD, FDL should not advocate for any specific party or candidate.
Nonetheless, FDL SHOULD be willing to provide EQUAL coverage of ALL candidates, simply to expand the possibilities for ideas of HOW things like Fukashima SHOULD, properly be dealt with, whether the endless wars on human beings, on ALL of its many “fronts” should continue or not, and so on …
Unless and until MORE rational and reasonable ideas may reach human beings, until other visions beyond the beltway’s may be heard and debated, then meaningful and considered change does not stand a chance.
If the consent of the governed DOES matter to a civil society, then that society must have ready and consistent access to understanding the fact that a government any government, that merely pays lip-service to that fundamental and NOT revolutionary tenet is, in point of fact, not a legitimate government.
For only when that understanding is widespread will there be will sufficient to cause the people to insist upon the justice of, the necessity of, and the inevitability of substantive and transforming change.
Now, if FDL does not consider that equal coverage of ideas and candidates is desirable, then it should explain why this is so and why FDL cannot or should not provide such coverage.
FDL styles itself a “progressive political blog”, implying that it is both progressive AND political. Heaven knows we need the “progressive”, and the hell of it is that this is a most critical political era … indeed, the nature and the quality of the future is going to come down to the nature of “political” power … and how it is used, abused, or subverted.
These are merely my thoughts, they are not meant to be taken as judgment, as disappointment, as condemnation, or as anything but honest enticement to further thought and consideration among the members of this community.
DW
More than anything, FDL blogs and comments about how dishonest the corporate MSM are. Someone needs to write an algorithm to determine how tiresome that is.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I don’t appreciate it.
We have this discussion every election cycle because not one 3rd party has done the work needed to become a nationally viable party. Everybody wants a 3rd party. I’d love a 3rd party. Nobody gets off their ass and does the work. All they do is piss and moan about it in a presidential election year.
Happy birthday, rc. You have the same birthday as one of my beautiful granddaughters.
Your comment, oldgold, consistently imply that, however.
You seek to frighten people into supporting a party that is NOT willing to do what the people need … now, not a century from now.
You argue incremental change, because, you suggest, anything else will cause the political powers that be … to move to the right.
I suggest that they will and are doing so, right now, and have been doing so for years, quite regardless of the needs and will of the governed.
I have yet to hear you say the electoral college needs to go and that you. personally realize that and therefore intend to bend your efforts in that direction.
What I hear you say, is “Vote for the Dems …”
THAT is your continuing suggestion and advice.
DW
Don’t you think calling another political party ‘a 3rd party’ marginalizes it at the outset?
Incidentally, when John Anderson ran against Carter (D) and Reagan (R) there were several other parties’ candidates also running. Anderson ran without any party affiliation, as an independent candidate. At the time, a voter could not yet register as “Independent”. Nonetheless, the reportage referred to Anderson as a “third-party” candidate.
I’ll say it again, AMEN!
And that unwillingness to stay and build, as you and I agree, is a failure that Ralph Nader must own … he could have made a difference and should have made, in my opinion, the effort.
That said, nobody, apparently, wants to even think about politics until the erection season … and fewer(!) wish to do the hard work of making it happen.
Well, necessity, dire necessity might change that.
We are all going to find out.
Unless we shuffle off, first …
DW
Semantics matter, just as you say … which is why “alternative” is my descriptive term of choice, AitchD.
DW
Let’s use the XL pipeline as an example. How many people other than D’s or R’s are in Congress or the White House? Who did we go after to keep the pipeline from being crammed down our throats? We went after everybody. This wasn’t covered anywhere until Jane and others made it news. Are we to ignore what’s in front of our eyes in order to promote an alternative? Today’s issues are gonna be resolved, for good or ill, by the people in office today. Today.
Just seems to me that one route to national viability is increased visibility. I like the idea of reading about 3rd party alternatives not just during an election year but throughout every year.
It’s a label of convenience, call ‘em bananas if it makes ya feel better.
Now it’s sounding like you have a banana to grind. *g*
So would I but the people in and the supporters of alternative parties need not to pack up and go home after a presidential election.
DW, I’m with you. My only fault with Nader was he abandoned the Greens when they needed him most. He’s a great organizer and he just walked away. To me he’s an asshole for that reason and that reason alone.
No, I’m just really tired of having this discussion every other year. *g*
Quite a thunder-banger going on here … torrential down-pour, spooked tigers, and a wee goggy under my feet.
I might disappear for a while.
If so, it has been a true pleasure to be here, sharing time, as you, all, are among my very favorite beings.
Namaste
DW
Good points, of course. But if say the Greens can reach that 5% threshold the party can qualify for enough funding to reach more voters during the next election cycle. Keep that up and before long a Green will hold elective office somewhere and get to vote or trade votes with a D or R. Et cetera.
I know you are tired of this but I want to say one more thing. If I want to learn something about an issue, FDL is where I come because I know I am going to get facts and perspectives that I haven’t thought about and am not likely to find anywhere else. Same goes for a candidate or issue that I want to get involved with and support. If we want a change, we need to provide some tools with which to make that change. Reporting on good alternatives can’t hurt and can only help make that change possible, in my opinion.
ok, I’m done. For now :)
But Nader was not a member of the Green Party, ‘merely’ the party’s candidate.
I agree but they’ve gotta keep at it. The Greens, and once again I’m using them as a convenient example, don’t have a presence in all states and the people who support their ideas need to work at it every day, not just a year out of an election cycle. By working at it I mean knocking on doors, talking people up wherever they go, all that shit. It’s hard work, no doubt about it but it’s gotta get done before any rewards can be reaped.
Please don’t take offense at my clumsy wording, SD. You are great at what you do, and if you don’t want politics on the Diner, fine – I understand.
I was addressing with great respect the site at large, since what FDL does in promoting ideas in discourse is I think what makes third parties important, and in the past they have had more access to the public dialogue than they do today. There used to be a good argument that the main parties learned from the minor ones which issues were popular and tailored their platforms accordingly. That doesn’t need to happen now, because third parties are invisible.
It hasn’t been because of their efforts that they are so marginalized now. The two parties that do get noticed made deliberate efforts in collusion with corporate media to shove them aside. I agree, who wins isn’t what is important; that makes ‘viability’ not an issue as well. Sustainability may be too much to ask at this point, when the playing field has concrete barriers around it, and it takes a huge effort just to get on the ballot, especially when you are not funded by the 1%.
This site is about exploring alternatives, and certainly folk are entitled to think it is only practical to vote for a major party. But they ought to be hearing that there is an alternative.
Green Party (or somesuch) rallies and links at the Lakeside Diner every week! Yes!
MyFDL is a wonderful forum for that. There are people here who support either Stein, Anderson or Alexander. They should be writing diaries on the ideas their candidate and his/her party have. To date most of them I’ve read start out rah rahing one or the other then spend the rest of the page bitchin’ about the Lake. I’d like to see the ideas of the Greens and the Justice Party in print at MyFDL, not the copy and paste shit favoured by some but a real analysis of ideas by the people who are advocating them here.
I have done that a time or two and gotten absolutely no response or comments. I would suggest someone take that task up and post it at MyFDL on a regular basis.
On edit: To be honest I don’t have the time to keep track of the goings on of the other parties.
The Diner wasn’t designed to be that type of column. My original vision of the Diner was to present reporting of issues here by primarily the foreign press for a different perspective from our corporate media. I was originally going to do it at MyFDL but the PTB at the Lake asked me if I’d do it for the front page.
There is no taking the politics out of any of this but what I’d not like the Diner to become is just another column on politics.
Juliania mentioned that she was unable to locate any recent diaries at the MyFDL subsite. I couldn’t find the recent post about Jill Stein’s appearance on CNN. I had to google instead. I wouldn’t call it censorship, but I would call it bananas.
Let me turn that around.
What I would like to see is an analysis of those ideas by our front pagers, not by those who are advocating them here. Am I making sense? I’m not looking for advocates, I’m looking for a critical analysis, and our front pagers are trained and experienced in providing that.
I don’t mean to argue for the sake of arguing.
Thank you, dear juliania. And, I hope I don’t jinx her. ;-)
That, unfortunately, is a quirk of MyFDL. As more diaries are written the older diaries disappear from the list. I don’t have a solution for that.
Oh lord, I don’t want the Diner to change. It’s just that the questions came up here, and we feel comfortable hashing them out here.
(((SD))) :)
I’d better wash these mugs before we start throwing them at each other. Oh, look….. I Used To Be A Time Traveler, But That’s All In The Future Now….
Somebody put a nickle in the jukebox, please.
DW @146
Once again, we disagree!
If the front pagers did that then they’d have to do the same for the Ds and Rs, no? That, imo, would make the Lake just another political blog. I want the supporters of alternative candidates to tell me why they support who they do and how their candidate’s ideas are better than anybody else’s. I want them to dissect those ideas so we don’t have to. I want them to be able to convince me that this person is viable and worthy of my consideration. I’m thinking it shouldn’t be too hard to get one of these candidates to come to MyFDL and speak for him/herself, in real time, for an hour.
The XL action was a major success, no question. But it took a lot of effort. I don’t see why FDL can’t both do direct actions like the XL, and also do appropriate reportage on the available or potential alternatives. It does not feel like that is the best explanation for the current policy. I’m just sayin’ . . . ;-)
“Firedoglake.com (FDL) is a leading progressive news site, online community, and action organization consistently ranked as one of the most influential political websites.”
How about that!
I gotta go back to work, with my lunch sitting here half eaten.
I’ll put it in a to go box for you *g*
Ditto that.
I wasn’t referring to the list or the sidebar. I entered MyFDL and kept going back, page by page, but never found the diary about the Jill Stein appearance, which was posted May 27.
I’m not sure how diaries get on the front page of MyFDL but they start out in the sidebar list. If it didn’t get onto the MyFDL front page you won’t find it scrolling through the articles.
Understandable, and understood, and agreed with. ;-)
I think it’s great that we are having this conversation, but I don’t want to see it dominate the Diner.
A lot of people feel pretty strongly about it, obviously, so maybe we should continue the discussion at myFDL. If there is enough sustained interest, something will happen. And if there isn’t enough sustained interest, well, that will tell us something, too.
They get on the front page of MyFDL by being accepted for posting. If you mean the FDL FP (Major League), they get there by caprice or by a recommendation count — I think.
That’s the “size” of it OmAli.
SD and the Diner are a safe and reasonable place to discuss what, sometimes, is not well-received nor “tolerated” elsewhere …
Yer spiritual peace and its outward moving ripples is showing, SD.
;~DW
AitchD @ 177
A good way to find things that have left the page is to use the “search” feature located on the top right section of FDL. Just type in the name or topic you are interested in and hit the search field.
Okay.
I don’t have a problem with that, oldgold.
Do you?
DW
The editors promote MyFDL diaries to the mothership front page. I’ve posted Caturday going on 3 years and not once has it been on the MyFDL front page, nor would I expect it to be.
Soooo much conversation and commentary on FDL is about what the MSM show or report. I watch no TV ‘news’, or any TV except for women’s golf. I’m an outsider in that narrow respect. I have two stickers on my car, next to each other: FDL and USGA.
Not me, time for my nap. But I think you had the best position today. ;-)
With a winner-take-all electoral system in most of the states for the electoral college, that means that a third party has to win, not just make a statement.
IMHO, the most likely scenario for that is the emergence of a third party to the left of the Democratic Party as the Democratic Party moves further rightward picking off the conservatives who are not driven by the Limbaugh-induced hysteria. The Republican Party has made itself at this point a demographic minority party that can only win by excluding or discouraging voters from voting.
But the real question is what political movement will unite people power sufficiently to strip money power of its influence in US politics. Until that job is done, everything is at the margins.
Thank you for good conversation, folks. ((Dinerzens))
Thanks, it worked!
Wish I still had my cats ;o)
All they do is piss and moan about it in a presidential election year.
Not only that, but continually bitch about not being Front Paged.
Petty and self consumed is how I see it. It’s so weird to me. Anybody who posts daily about not being front paged doesn’t have my ear.
Which to me is pretty sad. They might even have a relevant point of view, but, the troll wars here have me emotionally exhausted, and I can’t care about their views anymore. Phoney Balognies. How much do these people get paid to be divisive? It’s sad. Too Sad.
There’s also those not paid, but get some kind of ego boost out of yelling down a Front Pager. Again. Sad.
You’ve been More Than Fair to many folks here, for a while.
And, still, they persist.
Whatever. They’ll die out after the election, and then we can continue on, talking about issues.
It sometimes scares the shit of of me that people think they can come and Usurp this site.
Too many loyal, intelligent and thinking people are here to make sure that won’t happen.
Ding. Without systemic change we’re just chasing our tails.
Om. We’ve had a good time at the Diner, but more and more it’s been a place for subversives to be diversive and to pit people against each other.
That’s the way I see it.
I think it’s petty and disgusting.
Come here, start some shit and then take off. WATB’s is how I see it.
(I’m sure someone will tell me I’m totally wrong, and explain how it Really is.)
Systemic and fundamental change (forgive my wee tail-end addition), SD.
Not out of spite, nor malice, but out of genuine planetary, as well as human, spiritual need.
But first, we have to establish the understanding that life is a rather special thing …
DW
Heya, demi, I’ve not been hereabouts much, of late, and do wonder a bit what you are talking about.
Should I take a look at some recently past Diner times, for some insight?
DW
Lovely sentiments, DW. I hope one day that SD reserves one day a week at the Diner and serves only vegetarian fare.
Also, I was happy to see that way above you wrote “for a while” and not ‘for awhile’. Same happiness when I saw demi write it that way. ;o)
No. Know or don’t know.
That’s all.
I’m not stupid. And, I don’t LOL or roll my eyes either.
You get it or you don’t.
Well, I know we have some spirited discussions, but nothing that seems any worse than that, that I can tell…do you really think it is more than that?
It would appear the concept of life being a special thing is foreign to many.
If I didn’t think so, I wouldn’t have said it.
I’ve been honest and authentic with you, so, I hope you understand.
(Other than that, how’d you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln? :) )
I don’t know about “many”.
Some yes. But, please don’t let this thread Get You Down.
I think that there are tons of people who appreciate life.
And, as DW said earlier, lots of folks are paying attention.
It is what it is, but I hold a Positive Thought for humanity and for us, as well.
Gotta go, but please know, Dragonman, that you are deeply appreciated by me.
As I say, I’ve just not been around the Diner much of late, except for a drive-by, on occasion, when taking youngest daughter to school …
Experience has shown me, demi, that when you are concerned, I ought to pay attention.
When you are not spreading joy and good will then, either something in your own life is hurtful or troubling … or else something “here” is likely more than trifling amiss.
Your sensibilities are a “first indicator”, very often.
Truth.
DW
I guess that was my clumsy attempt to not shut down your expression of concern but not agree entirely with it, either.
So, you did mean it and I appreciate your honesty.
Well, sometimes, maybe.
I have to go water the garden, the zucchs, the maters, the peppers…before it gets too hot in good old So Cal.
My personal life is pretty fine right now. Thanks for wondering.
Could go into detail, but why bore these fine folk?
And, you know, the garden is beckoning.
(Good to see you, btw, anyway.)
Why not, baby? Whaterthey gonna do? Arrest me?
Really. Bye.
I still think demi ought to write a diary seeking inputs about antiwar films (I suggested it the other day). It seems apropos in a larger and similar context.
I saw that you said that.
And, at the time, I thought why do I have to do it, but you know, maybe I’ll consider it. Thanks. AitchD.
A pleasure, always it is, demi, to encounter you on these threads.
What ya doin’ in the garden?
I been rained out … er, “in” and the basil will have to wait a wee bit.
Don’t mind the rain, nor the thunder, but the lightning … being as we are on top of a hill… (Pittsburgh IS hills … still amazes me that a ball placed on the ground will, almost always, run away from home …)
Always down-hill, for some odd reason.
Well, enough foolishness, I must needs treat this problem with the gravity it deserves.
;~DW
AitchD and demi: She/you is/are a gifted writer. That looks/is awkward :)
I’ve got to go, too.
Good afternoon to everypup.
ohmmmm
Herron Hill, The Hill District, Squirrel Hill … help me out here, DW, I moved away nine years ago… ;o)
Thanks! We (!) had good and encouraging teachers.
Still do…
Stay well and a zillion thanks for all you do, OmAli!
They never have which is kinda my point.
ah, how could I forget? North Hills, South Hills, Mount Washington, Mount Lebanon…
@96 and @97
Okay you’re going to have to point to where I said that the Democratic Party “will never break it’s pattern”, because I sure as hell don’t remember saying that. What I clearly said was “punishing them has never worked and I have no reason to believe it will start working now”. Also I don’t recall dismissing a viable third party as unworkable, unneeded or extraneous. For those who have been paying attention, I mentioned the need for one right here waaaay back in the Bush years and have restated that desire over and over since then, even suggesting names and candidates. What I have done is I have pointed out that the Electoral College, (which as you’ve correctly stated is an obsolete relic from another time), would implode if a third party candidate kept one of the other two from getting the number of electors s/he needs to become president. I like a lot of what you have to say but I wish you would read my comments more carefully. Not doing so leads you to believe the worst possible things about me that are wholly unsupported by facts, like believing I’m a reflexive Democrat or that I deplore the call for a third party. I have not belonged to the Democratic Party. Ever. I have never been a partisan, being much more interested in policy. I hope this clears up the last misconceptions standing between us and again, please read my comments more carefully. The things you’ve suggested that I’ve said and believe in those two comments are just wrong as anybody who has been around as long as you should be well aware.
Suburbs, Verona …
Actually, the entire neighborhood is relatively “level”, however, when we lived in Forest Hills, if you stood directly in front of our house one foot was about twelve inches above (or below) the other …
Finally gave up muh stick-shift simply because my left foot (feet again!) got clutching tired …
Where did you live when in the city of Rusty Bridges, AitchD?
And Squirrel Hill, may have or be a hill … but the … tunnel … never seen anything like it … must set off phobias more than any bridge, tunnel, or precipice that I have EVAH seen … lately, “they”, it is whispered, have been making it “taller” … the tunnel, I mean … “they” have been doing … “something”. I used to ask, “Why didn’t “they” put in three lanes, each way, when “they” built the thing?”
But, so many people rolled their eyeballs and shrugged that I thought it might be contagious … that eye and shoulder thing, so I stopped …
DW
With respect back, that’s exactly what 2010 was about. That and nothing else. I remember the conversations here. I remember people jumping down my throat for having the temerity to point out that punishing Dems always = rewarding Repugs in our system. You’re another one who could use a bit more care when reading. Because if you had been reading carefully, you will have seen that I’ve been beating the drums for a viable third party right here for YEARS before these people came along and before that I was beating the same drum at Americablog. What happened is, a bunch of newcomers joined us and began assigning motives to people who they didn’t know based on one or two comments and somehow I got labeled a “Party partisan” and nothing can be further from the truth. I can’t make people read what I say before passing judgment on me but I will call people out when they are making unsupportable assumptions about who and what I am. I’d like to be your friend but I’m not going to put up with being labeled, especially if that label has no source in reality. I’m just not.
EDIT: And just so we’re clear, ridiculing Republicans is not the same thing as defending Democrats, just like calling out people for using every single topic as a segue for ripping on Obama doesn’t mean I’m carrying the bastard’s water.
I think your second sentence is a fair restatement of the meaning of my statement that you are asking about. I took it as a fair implication, in any event. I try to read the comments carefully. In your case, I got fooled into thinking that the positions of some of your friends were yours as well, so I apologize for that, and have always tried to be more careful since. I enjoy interacting with you, Margaret, because I think you have a very alive mind, so any miscommunication between us is a cause for regret on my part.
Sheesh, I forgot Forest Hills! Denis’ Restaurant (then Drew’s) was always a favorite since the 50′s.
I grew up in Squirrel Hill, went to Allderdice HS. Spent the 60′s in Ohio at college (and got to watch Jim Brown every Sunday!) Moved back in 69, hired at CCAC fulltime when it was starting up (a dream come true to be a compass leg at the drawing of the first circle!), retired from there in 03. Lived in Friendship, Shadyside, Wilkinsburg (next to the WTAE-TV tower, way up on the hill above Ardmore Blvd.), East Liberty, Monroeville (helped build The Mall in summer 68 while in grad school, and worked there pt during first year at CCAC), Regent Square/Edgewood/Swissvale next to Frick Park. And, hey, in my college town of Westerville, Ohio, there was an Isaly’s!
The Tunnel! It’s slightly uphill from the Edgewood approach and slightly downhill from the Sq. Hill approach, and since everyone reflexively eases up on the gas pedal, the uphill drivers never recover, backing up the traffic to Ardmore (oh, and Braddock Hills ;o)) or Churchill (!), while the outbound moves after the rush hour bottleneck from Dahtahn. Back in the Forbes Field Era, around Churchill, we called it ‘ballgame traffic’. And it sure was in 1960.
Thanks for that but just to be clear: Just because I don’t believe that punishing them at the pols is going to change their behavior doesn’t mean that I don’t think anything will. Obviously they will change someday. For good or bad, I don’t know but change they will. I’m glad we had a chance to have this conversation.
Just for the record, I came here long after you were here, and I’ll be here long before you leave. ;o)
LMAO! It’s not about who has been here longest. I was just pointing out that I have a record at fdl and my views are pretty well known or should be. I’m just such a ‘berger sometimes that I can’t always express myself clearly or without insulting the person I’m talking to. I do that to people in person too so it’s my failing. :)
I stole that like verbatim from Groucho (but I never shot an elephant in my pajamas).
I don’t begrudge you the right to deploy your sharp elbows occasionally lol. Seriously, I think you act in good faith, and I hope you think the same of me. That’s the most important thing, IMO. I think your input will always deserve careful consideration. I am glad if we have now cleared the air between us. ;-)
As am I. :)
Peg!!!
Deb!!!
Hunny Bunny. You have the whole day off?
Is your tummy happy now?
Still wanna be my friend? Ha! It could get you in trouble.
No. No divisiveness here. Nope. Not at all.
LMAO! I’ll never not wanna be your friend and yep! I took all day ’cause I’m lazy that way.
Yeah, you, lazy. Right? Not.
You’ve earned a day off, not that it was a picnic in the park. :)
Speaking of which, I gots some chores to still do. Met my friend without a car this morning and took him shopping. Then, I poked around here and took a nap. (After 27 bon bons.) And, I relaxed a lot on the weekend, so I best get to my not yet done stuff.
What a sheer pleasure it is to see you during the daytime, during the week.
Your words inspire me. Yes they do. Thanks.
Aww. I never know how to respond to praise like that but thanks. :) I think the world of you as well. I wish I could be a Diner regular but I’d rather have the job to be honest.
PS I did get the garden watered earlier and voila, found the First Red Tomato off the new plants. I still have some growing off last years.
Tell me what’s better than a home grown tomato on a BLT? Nothin’.
:)
Okay, vacumning and stuff. Laterz.
We’ll always have
ParisPUAC and Caterday (thank you, Dragon.)The last time I watched Casablanca, recently and for the umptienth time, I noticed for the first time that every scene and nearly all the dialogue is about deception and hardly anything else: hiding, lying, cheating, covering. Everyone, all the time. Extraordinary and beautiful study of cynicism.
High Def, you described a lot of the scenes from the Bible. Also, much literature.
People don’t write about having a beautiful day and no problems, for the most part.
Still, it is an enjoyable movie.
True, though I was describing my being shocked since it was made by, for, and about Tommy Brokaw’s Greatest Generation, and purposely to create and boost US morale for the war that at the time (1942) only reported defeats and bad news.
Dude, you’re buying in to the cynical.
Drama is about conflict, right?
AitchD @ 234
It was about the very opposite.
Capt. Louis Renault:
“Because my dear Ricky, I suspect that underneath that cynical shell you are at heart a sentimentalist.”
I know that. You really think I don’t know that? I can’t believe you think I don’t know that (quoting Martin Short as Nathan Thurm).
What I’m trying to say is that I was fascinated with how much of the content consists of deception in all its guises, from everyone.
No I’m not buying the cynical critiques or suggesting a cynical subtext. The English Patient took Casablanca’s nobility and turned it on its head into selfish cynicism.
What I say @236 is unadorned information easily documented.
To Margaret@217:
I’m not getting the link to your message, Margaret, so I’ll just cut and paste it here. (Old slow computer takes a while to settle and it is getting late.)
“With respect back, that’s exactly what 2010 was about. That and nothing else. I remember the conversations here. I remember people jumping down my throat for having the temerity to point out that punishing Dems always = rewarding Repugs in our system. You’re another one who could use a bit more care when reading. Because if you had been reading carefully, you will have seen that I’ve been beating the drums for a viable third party right here for YEARS before these people came along and before that I was beating the same drum at Americablog. What happened is, a bunch of newcomers joined us and began assigning motives to people who they didn’t know based on one or two comments and somehow I got labeled a “Party partisan” and nothing can be further from the truth. I can’t make people read what I say before passing judgment on me but I will call people out when they are making unsupportable assumptions about who and what I am. I’d like to be your friend but I’m not going to put up with being labeled, especially if that label has no source in reality. I’m just not.
EDIT: And just so we’re clear, ridiculing Republicans is not the same thing as defending Democrats, just like calling out people for using every single topic as a segue for ripping on Obama doesn’t mean I’m carrying the bastard’s water.”
Margaret, I don’t believe I have accused you of any of this. In fact I praised what I read here in my first post. I then disagreed with you about punishing the Democrats, and that was a subjective disagreement, obviously. The folks I have discussions with around here are concerned, as you are, with ideas and moral positions, not party, so they and I can’t vote for someone who does what Obama does – drones is a biggie, or a Congress that enables and only listens to the corporates. That observation isn’t an attack on you, just an observation. I believe that most of the young people who voted for Obama were ideologically motivated, so when things came about or rather didn’t come about, they were turned off and they didn’t turn out. That doesn’t equate to punishment in my book, though where you are the perspective is different. But we can disagree without taking it personally and I apologize for not saying “I think” before my statement – I thought ‘with respect’ could cover that I wasn’t being personal.
I do wonder though why people mind so much that we talk about elections in a year in which an election is going to take place. I know, people would rather just have a get together and catch up – (I promise, I will meditate for the rest of the week at least.) But really, if we are being polite and charming and reasonable (as I know we were, especially DW and rc), it is just as reasonable to suppose some folk have problems to discuss. That’s all.
Not wishing to ‘usurp the site’ any longer, with apologies to all, I post further that I will in future abstain from comment here altogether, as I have at PUAC. Unlike Demi, I don’t really think it has been a good conversation, but one can only go so far sorting things out. I would, however, recommend Kevin’s post about Obama’s active role in the Yemeni drone program. The comments there are hugely thought provoking, and if we can’t discuss third parties because they are not viable maybe not voting is indeed the way to go, Margaret’s ideas about ‘punishing the Democrats’ notwithstanding. I will just crosspost the final comment I read there this morning, as I think it goes with what I have been trying to say:
““Victims had to be buried in “communal graves’ because the bodies had been completely torn to pieces and were unrecognizable.”
I remember my Dad, a WWII combat veteran, bitterly recalling how the Germans bulldozed bodies into mass graves, describing those responsible as monsters.
Now I am suppose to vote for monsters. No thanks. No aiding & abetting for me.” [BobTinKy]
Demi, your comments upthread were hurtful; I can only think they were directed at me. I can only say that no hijacking was intended and I am sorry to have scared the shit out of you. Peace and well wishes for the future.
juliania, I suggest you email Jane with your concerns about using the mothership as a platform for alternative parties and candidates.
juliania,
I like SD’s suggestion of the email to Jane. I plan to do that and hope you will, too.
myFDL is a good base of operations in the meantime. You write beautifully. I wish you would post a diary. It would give us a gathering spot and perhaps help us coalesce our thoughts into a persuasive message and request. Right now, I don’t know what I’m asking for. Not an endorsement, certainly, but information that I can rely upon, at least.
Neither of the choices “presented” to us is acceptable. If we are indeed a progressive blog I don’t see how we can avoid looking at other options. Occupy is one, but only one. Alternative parties present additional options. We need to look to the future but start working today, to get there. We can’t work productively without tools and information, though.
I know our front-pagers are stretched pretty thin, but this is important to a lot of our readers, or at least it seems to be. Maybe we should take a poll…who knows, but an email to Jane is where it should probably start.
I’m glad we had the conversation, but I agree with SD that the Diner is not ultimately where it needs to take place. It’s up to us to try to see that it gets to a location where it is taken seriously and gets the resources that it needs in order to determine whether it is a road that we want to travel.