TPM today reports that the answer is still extremely uncertain:
… the project, which is projected to be able to take riders from Los Angeles to San Francisco in 2 hours and 40 minutes, traveling at up to a peak of 220 miles-per-hour in some sections, costs an estimated $68 billion and is backed vociferously by Democratic Governor Jerry Brown, has run into heavy interference recently.
The California Legislative Analyst’s Office (LAO), an independent state budget watchdog agency, on Tuesday released a cautionary report on the project proposal, recommending that legislators vote down the Governor’s plan to fund the initial phase of the project — which would connect Madera, just north of Fresno, to north of Bakersfield — by selling $2.6 billion worth of state bonds.
If the sale doesn’t go through, the high-speed rail project will effectively be stuck in limbo for the foreseeable future, as the bond sale is necessary to raise enough money to begin construction and to receive $3.3 billion in federal matching funds. In total, federal funding is supposed to pay for 61 percent of the project. Only 4 percent of these funds have been secured so far, according to the LAO, and it’s that uncertainty that has the agency urging caution.
Part of the problem, the TPM report goes on to say, is that the current proposal — even if it provides an attractive alternative to driving over the Grapevine — doesn’t really address California’s real highway congestion problems, which are local to L.A. and San Francisco. In addition, David Kurtz at TPM muses:
Have proponents stripped the project down so far to make it politically palatable that they’ve doomed it with unworkable practical, technical, or economic constraints?
… I don’t know the answer. But it seems like the ingredients — or more specifically, the pressures — are there to create that kind of result.
If that reminds you of the 2009 economic-stimulus package, or Obamacare, in the sense of “It started as a reasonable idea, but wow, did it get turned into unappetizing sausage as the legislative process ground it up”… well, me too. Seems to happen far too often whenever remotely progressive ideas try to cross the gulf of politics into becoming reality.




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SWOPA!
Rush hour traffic jams between San Diego and El Cajon were nightmares! Worse than any other city I’ve lived in. And stand by to stand by if it rains a little!
Swopa!
No
Republican anywhere is willing to invest in infrastructure, they would rather privatize it and let their buddies get rich. Ike is spinning in his grave.
Hey DrD. Got a lot of mileage at work today about a certain somebody lecturing an anthropologist on anthropology.
While I am not sure that high speed rail between LA & SF makes sense, California has always seemed like a place that could benefit greatly from commuter rail and from passenger rail connections between major cities, like on the Eastern seaboard.
LOL! Someone certainly got pretty steamed about the whole thing. Mildly annoying for me and I really hate it when somebody misrepresents my profession.
I had an elderly conservative friend, now deceased about 4 years, who harped over & over about high speed rail (HSR). He thought, correctly, about how much energy would be saved with a coast-to-coast HSR freight line. And also correctly pointed out (repeatedly) that the U.S. infrastructure was built when the nation was a lot poorer but the richer nation could no longer afford to maintain what was already built, let alone build more that would be economically priceless.
I’ll let my deceased conservative friend’s comments stand without further evaluation.
Spot on. Especially cities like SD which is surrounded by bedroom communities. Santee, Julian, El Cajon, Escondido, Mira Mesa, Poway… You never got anywhere in a hurry in the metro area, mornings or afternoons.
It is really amazing how infrastructure somehow became a “liberal” issue, simply because government doing anything — or, now, even people traveling in groups — violates the conservative obsession with making sure we’re all isolated, selfish individuals to the greatest extent possible.
A very true and sad commentary. We have essentially abandoned passenger rail in most of the country and have sadly neglected freight rail as well, which really is the most efficient means of long distance transport overland.
I guess I’ll never get why so many people will refuse to just accept the correction and move on. Instead they double down and get angry. How DARE you know more about a subject than they!
Yep. I suspect even Nixon is spinning in his grave over what he created.
I run into that some, though fortunately not too often. There are a significant number of people who really hate others who are experts in some area (always call us elitist and arrogant), as if that somehow devalues them.
I think while the auto industry was responsible for killing many commuter rail systems, (Like L.A.’s), both the automobile and trucking industries lobby against rail. I’ve no doubt they are funded and encouraged in this by the fossil fuel producers.
Well, that could be the reason, or maybe Satan’s turning him on a spit. ;-)
A little bit of both, I suspect. The Devil is efficient and would love a means to make that a self-turning sit. ;-)
I was laughing hard when he, (I’m assuming he was a he), was strongly suggesting that you must be making shit up, both in your science and your credentials.
I suspect that may be true. Certainly there are some powerful interests behind it. A rational transport system would use water transport as much as possible and then rail for long haul and trucks for mid-short haul.
I cannot entirely fault that, given internet anonymity, but it was not like others did not vouch for me. He (I assume the same as you) was committed to that belief and simply was not going to let go of it (sort of like climate change deniers and creationists).
This country is full of ijots and morans.
Tell me something I haven’t known for 40+ years. I did grow up in Oklahoma, after all.
Another niche the tractor-trailer fills is smaller orders. Especially where chemical or dry bulk transport is involved. In other words, you can make sacks of concrete move very efficiently by rail but transporting bulk products with a shelf life or those with very specific properties that are purchased in smaller quantities by train will never be economic.
Yeah but this person has been around for a while and has certainly been on the threads you most often frequent. I can’t believe that anybody could exchange more than half a dozen sentences with you and not know you’re the real deal.
Why is high speed desirable or thought to be beneficial? (And Dr.Dick is smart about waterways for transit.)
I have both an emotional & an intellectual attachment to trains.
On an emotional level, I grew up at the top of a dead end street, with the high (200′?) RR embankment at the end. We sledded down the embankment in the winter (Buffalo, NY back in the days before global warming) and there must have been a grade crossing near enough for the train horn to become embedded in my hearing memory.
On an intellectual level, trains are one of those public goods that never pay for themselves but are highly economical for the public to subsidize bc of all sorts of unmeasured costs, like congestion, energy wastage, pollution, etc.
Alas, I came of age during a time of reason. Thus color me naive bc I never realized that the only thing worth subsidizing was gigantic profitable corps sucking the taxpayers’ teats on account of their political contributions. Shame on me.
Partially true. You can use rail to transport bulk quantities to central distribution points, where it is broken down into smaller units for distribution by truck. Perhaps will not work for smaller producers, but an integrated transport system can dramatically reduce transport costs. Rail moves larger quantities at much lower cost per mile. Sadly, as with all of our infrastructure, the rail systems have not been adequately maintained.
I do not have any personal attachment to rail, but it really is more efficient for long distance and bulk transport than trucks are. Like you, I also came of age when even conservatives beleived in science and reason.
Portland has a very nice HSR to Mt Hood with stops. Well at least it is a nice train ride, And more city to city trains are a great way to travel and save energy.
High speed rail is more efficient and economical than short hop air.
The Rhine, in many visual ways similar to the Hudson, bears no economic relationship. About 10% of all goods moved in Europe are on ships on the Rhine. In Dusseldorf, on one visit, I counted 11 cargo ships at docks, and on both of my Rhine tours there were always freight ships in view, 2 or 3 at a time.
Furthermore the Rhine is gorgeous. Medieval towns on shore and castles on heights extant, swimming beaches, etc.
In contrast, seldom do you see one commercial ship on the Hudson, mostly cement when they are visible. Hudson shores trashed with decaying industrial shit. Couldn’t swim it until it was cleaned up enough in mid-90s.
Old Europe, before Sark and Merk (as one pundit put it, she is what Adolf and Eva’s daughter would have looked like) used to have it all over the U.S. Alas, they are now destroying it faster than we can.
I appreciate the compliment, but sadly there are some people who simply do not want to be told they are wrong and will find ways to convince themselves.
I have decided in the past year or two that I need to be more assertive about doing that and bring my professional expertise to bear on public policy questions. I now make a point of saying in my classes that human sexuality is fluid and not strongly directed, that marriage is not just between a man and a woman and that it is universally a primarily secular institution, among other things.
Is that an anthropological opine? G)
We really do not make efficient use of river transport, though there is still quite a bit on the Mississippi and some on the Ohio.
There are products that need to be kept at a specific temperature, or that become unstable after a certain number of hours. Styrene for example has a very limited number of producers and a customer would never be able to buy it in bulk of over a few thousand gallons because they’d never be able to use much more than that before it becomes unusable. Acrylic acid is another. In that case, one can’t store it for long before it begins to break down it’s container.
Nope. Based on my reading of transport economics. I could well be wrong, however.
And that there are five great apes and not four? ;)
As I say, it depends on the product, the market, and the manufacturer. I do not anything about those products. Rail transport is (or can be) faster and cheaper than trucks, but it depends on whether you can efficiently transfer it to trucks for final delivery or ship it in sufficient bulk to make it economical.
Goods transport across NYS. Trains of 100-150 cars. How many trucks and how much more HC would trucks consume to do same task.
Freight trains travel EW in NYS at max speeds of 50 mph, vs passenger trains (about 10-20 cars) at max speeds of 80 mph on same tracks.
Imagine if you upgraded tracks and had more pullovers so that passenger trains didn’t get stuck behind slow moving freight trains and freight trains could travel faster. Blah blah blah.
I daydream, fruitlessly.
Oh, yeah (though there are actually 7 apes). The first thing I say in my evolution lectures is that you may have heard evolution says people are descended from apes. That is not true. We are not descended from apes, we are apes. When I discuss the African great apes I enumerate gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, and humans (and illustrate it with a picture of Franz Boas).
Well, I used to work in the trucking industry, specifically the chemical hauling industry and there are some things you can’t do with rail. Some of that is infrastructure related of course. i.e. The tracks don’t go there so there’s not a lot of choice. Those problems can certainly be addressed by rail infrastructure but all I was doing was describing a possible niche in which long haul trucking may still be the only viable option.
Well, duh, if you can refrigerate trucks, you can surely refrigerate train cars. And if you move trains faster than trucks….
I betcha Paul Krugman has a bit to say about regional transportation in his regional economics work for which he was awarded the Nobel in New Economic Geography perhaps on a grander scale. No doubt rail and shipping are less energy hogs than trucks and planes.
Yeah, I was referring to the great apes but the Indonesian Orangutan would be listed. I’ve got Orang, Goriila, Chimp, Bonobo and human being. What are the others?
I am not disagreeing with you and, as I said, really do not know that industry at all. It is just that there are ways to make it more economical to ship by rail than by truck, even for goods that are primarily transported by truck.
You don’t have to convince me on rail ecahn. I’m a believer. I’m just pointing out a niche that train transport will never be able to handle efficiently. If I haven’t been clear enough on that yet, I fear I’ll never be able to be.
You got all the great apes. The other two, gibbons and simiangs, are lesser apes.
My 1940′s vintage Lionel Lines train set sits on tracks beneath the TV.
Much of the EW train freight in NYS is chemicals. Imagine (Beatles White Album title song comes to mind) if you could make that efficient. But as I typed, I daydream. It will not happen.
Thank you well put. How did our devisive minds evolve? The apes seem to be content to family groups. We go for the gold.
Short version of krugman’s nobel: economy developed where RR were built.
Rocket science.
I’ll always remember the disorientation I felt when I saw truck trailers on train cars.
No. Not always. Not when it comes to transporting chemicals. I guess I’m unable to be clear enough. Many chemicals have a shelf life. They harden or set or corrode their containers and sending a 30,000 gallon tank car to carry 7000 gallons of a product that requires an inert gas environment to be transported in isn’t going to be very economical.
Pointing out that evolution is not working out so well for the chimps.
Makes one wonder about the alpha male model for humans.
The White Album is titled The Beatles. “Imagine” was maybe 1971? a Lennon ‘solo’ album.
Come to think of it I seems to display ape like behavior like scratching, smelling curiosity and territorial guarding. I also like to swing, grunt climb and ride a bicycle (learned that from circus chimps). I guess what sets us apart from other apes is training.
Stop it, please. Please read what I’m writing. Not all chemicals have the same properties. Just because you can store ECH indefinitely doesn’t mean you can do the same with phenol. Because you’ve seen trains hauling some chemicals doesn’t mean they can economically transport all chemicals.
Apes are actually more complicated and intelligent than you imply. For instance, there is no real difference between group size for chimpanzee or bonobo troops and human mobile forager bands. Humans are more socially astute, however. It is important to realize that the foundations for most of human behavior is already present in the other apes. All of the great apes, for instance, have shown the capacity to use language (though none do so naturally) and have the about the same linguistic competence as a 4 year old human. Humans do differ in having dramatically greater empathy and sharing more than any other ape.
As I tried to indicate in may last, I defer to your much greater knowledge in this area. My comment was general and not specific to your example. I am quite certain you know what you are talking about.
We need the gold or its equivalent lucre to buy clothes.
And please note that from 1998 up until mid 2003, I was a certified state haz-mat response team member, a licensed state and federal safety inspector and carried DOT licenses to inspect and repair vessels and bottles.
I read what you typed. Apparently it is not reciprocal.
I’m sorry. I am also having to explain my reasoning to another and I was trying to avoid repetition. I wasn’t offended or anything. Just trying to be clear. Gonna go to bed now though. Oya!
I think that this is the perfect time for this.
“Humans do differ in having dramatically greater empathy and sharing more than any other ape.”
So the one percenter and .01% missed some genes? S)
Take care and sleep well.
I recently read (though the info may be older) that dogs can respond readily to human hand gestures while chimps are indifferent to them and generally cannot.
Whatever. You wanna deliberately misunderstand me this evening, be my guest. I’m not going to fight with you though. Night!
Pinning contemporary chimps or apes against modern humans underscores a lacking of understanding of the theory of evolution.
That’s just not how the theory of evolution works.
Wow! Nice balalaika!
They seem to have regressed severely (as have libertarians). Humans are unique among apes (or primates generally) in the degree to which we take care of those who cannot care for themselves, and this is a very recent development (within the last 250,00 years or so with Neanderthal and other archaic Homo sapiens). This is the foundation of human society and civilization.
Alpha male model does not apply to any of the apes, FWIW.
Aren’t we also the only predator ape?
I am impressed. You are the only one who has known what that is (I had to look it up). They are amazing. All multi-instrumentalists who play 25 instruments among them.
Nope. Both chimps and bonobos hunt and chimps also wage war. Meat is not a very large part of their diet, but it is there.
The fun thing about the balalaika is that there is a different sized instrument for each key. All the same design, all the same proportions, all three stringed. The only difference is the overall volume.
I’d heard chimps made war but I thought their meat intake was limited to insects n lizards n such.
In West Africa, some chimps even hunt with spears.
No, they also hunt monkeys (a significant part of what they kill) and small antelope. They also practice cannibalism, sometimes eating the victims in their wars (which are not for food).
I think I recall Jane Goodall in In the Shadow Of Man observing chimps noshing on some small and young baboons.
Oh gosh! Wanna see some heads explode? Send that to Bill Donohue.
More fun with Katzenjammer.
As I say, most of modern human abilities are derive from traits already present in the other apes. The biggest difference (other than overall intelligence), is the empathy and sharing thing.
Harrison Ford plays Indiana Jones an anthropologist researching that becomes an adventure. So this finally comes to mind.
One might be tempted to infer that it is the intelligence that makes us simultaneously the most empathetic and the most cruel.
Harrison Ford portrays a stereotype of an archaeologist that might have existed in the late 19th or very early 20th century. Certainly, that variety of adventurer/scholar was pretty much extinct in anthropology by the time his character is supposed to have lived (1930s-1940s).
The available evidence suggests that our intelligence is linked to (and perhaps derived from ) our empathy. Current thinking is that human intelligence initially evolved to deal with more complex social interactions (those are the areas of the brain that develop first).
The most serious (to date) malware infection of Macs (primarily those running Windows) has been traced to a recent WordPress infection.
Developmental anthro! Getting more interesting. you must have quite a library.
I bet Herb would say the same.
I teach intro and have a bit of a reputation as being the broadest of my colleagues.
So intelligence could be a result of empathy, rather than it’s cause? I sure learn a lot with you around.
I am not sure that you can say that, but they certainly co-evolved (the same selective forces produced both).
My guess is you toddled without stating so. G)
Why am I feeling playful…rowed 12,200 meters plus weights and abs. The girl band was fun.
Interesting thread so I am toddling Au reservoir. Be kind to yourselves and all other creatures.
I would add that the empathy and caring for others is the secret to our success, because it meant that we preserved the knowledge of the elders who had more experience. Prior to the emergence of Homo sapiens, if you could not support yourself, you died. Average life expectancy for australopithecines was about 30 years and for Homo erectus it was about 35 years. For Neanderthal it jumps to 55-60 and for modern Homo sapiens to goes over 60. That is what a little help from your friends will do.
Take care.
Trains in Europe are great fun, plus half the women there don’t shave.
So perhaps becoming self aware while living in groups might have been at play? In other words let’s say that early hominids were solitary creatures, might we be less empathetic?
No one has mentioned ‘consciousness’. And why is that? (quoting Alice Munro)
Call it consciousness, call it self awareness, call it sentience, I don’t care.
Is this the point where you claim you can astrally project?
My dog’s phrase if he could speak would have been “Throw ball”.
I can’t do that willfully, so I guess I wouldn’t call it projecting.
I’m going to astrally project my ass to bed.
Years ago I had a conversation with a retired railroad engineer. He told me the railroads died in the 30s, when UP and BN introduced high speed streamliners. The designers knew they could hit speeds of 200 mph realistically, but the problem was the roadbeds. They were built for trains in the 1850s. The designers went to management to get new, high speed roadbeds built. Since rail then had a lock on passenger and freight, they said No..
Then air travel and interstate freeways took passengers and frieght from the rails, and the couldn’t compete with slow trains on obsolete roadbeds.
Have you by any chance read Kary Mullis’s Dancing Naked In The Mind Field?
So you essentially admit, “astral projection as concept” is pretty much bullshit.
That’s essentially the rub. Europe’s old train beds were bombed, destroyed, and could be rebuilt.
I can’t admit that. I suspect it’s happened and is common.
Well, what am I wearing?
I mean you can either accomplish “astral projection” or you can’t. I just snapped a picture of myself from the webcam.
Make an accurate description to prove your claimed ability.
Sorry? What ability did I claim that you’re referring to? (You seem to be asking for clairvoyance, am I right?)
Nonetheless:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Kelly,
Than are dreamt of in our philosophy.
One final note …think limbic system.
Yes we can’t.