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She happens to be right, after all:
After playing a news clip describing the video, Loesch said, “I’d drop trou and do it too. That’s me, though. I want a million cool points for these guys.” She wondered why there was any kind of scandal surrounding the incident.
“C’mon people, this is a war,” she said. “Do I have a problem with that as a citizen of the United States? No, I don’t.”
Not about the “million cool points” the people who desecrate corpses deserve, or about how she would do it, too (anybody predicting how he or she would react in that situation is a liar; you have no idea), or about how pissing on corpses is somehow anything but offensive and filming it so as to brag to the world isn’t catastrophically stupid. But about how this is a war.
This is a war. And this. And this. And this.
And it’s not that this is a war, and we should be okay with any sickness that comes out of it. There are reasons, after all, that we have rules about safe conduct and treatment of prisoners and enemies, good reasons.
But this is a war, and we should know before we start that sickness like this WILL come out of it. You start a war, which means you take people, not all of whom are geniuses, not all of whom are decent and compassionate and capable of restraint, and you throw them into a horror unlike anything they’ve ever known. It is not excusing them, in the least, to understand what happens then.
You march them through charnel houses and you kill their friends in front of them, and in the case of our current conflicts you add a sense of futility and endlessness and obliviousness on the part of people at home who are making movies about this stuff like it’s over already, and even some of the decent, compassionate, restrained ones are going to absolutely lose their shit.
This is a war. Which is why you don’t start them in the first place. Which is why you don’t start them unless you absolutely have to. Unless you know you have no other choice. Unless you know how to end them as quickly as possible. Unless you’re ready not only for what will be done to your enemies, but what doing that will do to you. Unless you think you can carry that, because you sure as hell can’t prevent it all.
That’s not what Loesch meant, but it is what she said, however unintentionally.
This is a war.
A.
x-posted at First Draft
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“There was never a good war nor a bad peace.”
–Benjamin Franklin
And old Ben knew whereof he spoke.
I’ll never forget my grandfather, a first generation Danish immigrant, telling me about WWI…. about how it was to look at another young man who looked just like him and know that if he didn’t kill that kid, that kid would kill him. But I never got the sense that my grandfather would have got any satisfaction out of pissing on the kid he killed. And I don’t have any empathy for the grown up soldiers who pissed on the dead Taliban soldiers. I really don’t. And I don’t think we should make excuses for their uncivil and disgusting behavior.
Sherman was not exaggerating when he said “War is hell.” What he did not mention is that it tends to unleash the demons within each of us. It marks people in dark and ugly ways that last for a lifetime.
Sorry if I chilled your thread, Allison, but I don’t excuse Mi Lai or Abu Ghraib or any other disgusting things our soldiers have done. No tolerance. None. If you are in hand to hand combat, take ‘em out. Otherwise, keep your humanity.
Which is why wise people don’t start wars except as an absolute last resort. Which, in turn, is how we can tell that our national leaders are not wise people.
There are so many things wrong with this terrible episode. Among them is the fact that these 4 young men have spent much time and effort to be “all that you can be”, proud Marines and now they have destroyed that. What a waste of their lives and they have to live with what they did. Shame on them and on our country.
Wise leaders are now and always in short supply.
Which excuses all known Republicans from the exercise.
’nuff said.
What are you drinking, Dr.D?
BTW, tell your Learning Management System people to take a careful look at Canvas. It looks really good.
“Drop trou” = “me iz a bad hep kitty from ca. 1996, fuckas”
“There is an endless supply of white men. There has always been a limited number of human beings.”
–Old Lodge Skins, Little Big Man
“Be all you can be,” is an Army slogan. The Marines thing is, “The Few. The Proud. The Marines.”
I think she stole that from Animal House. That’s the only other place I have heard the term “drop trou”.
Atrocities like this or far worse (and this is relatively mild as these things go) have happened in all wars and will happen all all future wars. It is the responsibility of the commanders to enforce discipline and to actively discourage such behavior. It is quite evident for the repeated revelations that there has been a massive command failure in Iraq and Afghanistan which not only allows such events, but abets and covers them up.
A we bit of the Irish would go down nicely right now.
The Urban Dictionary and Online Slang Dictionary show dates around 2003-4 for their “drop trou” entries.
It still sounds pretty dated, though.
Is anyone aware of any studies as to which service members get PTSD? Not all do, of course, so are there some underlying conditions that predispose? One of my former clients had a psychotic break in Iraq and was unofficially diagnosed bipolar and then ‘rehabbed’ in Guam and sent back to drive trucks in Iraq (or maybe Afghan….not sure). If he suffers from PTSD, I would not be surprised. But many (most, I’m sure) soldiers do not fall in PTSD. Has anyone tried to figure out what the triggers are?
No doubt, EDP…! 8-(
Frankly, I really do not want to have to shift my courses over to a new platform anytime in the near future. I am slowly coming to terms with the clusterfuck that is Moodle and have shells for most of my classes now. Besides, our Online Programs people make the Bush administration look competent and professional.
Scotch okay? I’ve got some verrrry nice MacAllan 12…
We’re moving from BB to Canvas. Canvas has a conversion tool that actually works. My courses are all very vanilla, and it converted them no problems.
When we switched from WebCT to BB, BB gave us an alleged conversion tool that failed to convert my very vanilla courses.
In my experience, most combat veterans get it to some degree. The severity and the ways it manifests vary tremendously and a lot of them can cope with it, however marginally. My father served in the Pacific in WWII on Guam, Saipan, and Iwo Jima and would still wake up in the night screaming on occasion into the 1960s.
No offense, but in my opinion “good scotch” is an oxymoron.
I totally envy you there. Moodle is supposed to be able to do that but nobody here knows how it works (or would go to the trouble to learn) and made us do it all manually.
I know, because I asked my father not too long ago, that my grandfather (a WWI vet) preferred not to talk about his experiences. I can understand that; I’m sure it’s hard to get through a war without seeing something the human brain wasn’t designed to cope with.
I’m laughing. Irish whiskey is different, but I don’t find it that different from Scotch. Of course, I’m a single malt snob. I’ve been given to understand that there are some single malt Irish whiskeys, and I’d dearly love to try them.
While he no longer woke up screaming in the night, my father was still obviously traumatized by the experience shortly before his death ten years ago, when he finally opened up a bit and started talking a bit about it.
I hope it was therapeutic for him. Sounds like he was trying on some level to prepare himself for his death?
My father and his brothers (all WW2 vets) were much the same. A few funny stories about the idiocies of the military, but nothing serious about combat.
Captain Countertenor is following the same pattern. A year in Afghanistan, he has some ‘shareable’ stories, but doesn’t care to talk much about the other stuff. He shut his brother-in-law down cold at Christmas when he was pushed about it.
I have had one or two single malts that were not bad (don’t remember the names now), but I still prefer the Irish, particularly Bushmills (even if it gets me in trouble with some folks).
My son-in-law ‘did time’ in Nam defending some fort on the coast (he was Navy). I’ve never detected ‘stuff’…..and he’s my age, so I know quite a few vets. An awful lot of the guys I knew didn’t come back at all, so I don’t have them to ask. Former father-in-law suffered ‘shell shock’ from WWII, but he was a troubled dude prior to. Has anyone done outcome studies? I just don’t know of any. And that seems negligent.
Most do, my step-dad served in Nam as an 11 Bravo and still has episodes…! What we’ve seen already from these misbegotten wars, is that 1 in 4 of the homeless, is a Vet… We will be reaping what we’ve sown for decades, even if we pull out of Afghanistan and everywhere, tomorrow…! 8-(
That is what I think as well. After my mother died, ten years earlier, he seemed to start doing some kind of psychic house cleaning. Took my sister and I to Aruba where they met and married (and I was conceived) and to Hawaii, where he had been stationed during WWII. Talked more about his life growing up as well.
I’ve noticed that the Bushmills/Jameson question is a really important one.
Pretty much all the combat vets I have known fit that pattern.
Makes me rather conflicted, since politically I favor Jamesons, but I like the taste of Bushmills much better.
As a society, we have failed, it seems. the Vietnam vets….and with the direction the country is going, our new vets will have less help than those who came before. The rest of us are going to have to step up in ways we haven’t even considered yet. We must.
Glasser, 365 Days has a story about the history of the treatment of psychic battlefield trauma from WW1 through Vietnam.
He gives us no ideas about what things suggest who might be more (or less) susceptible.
Ditto that, Dr. D…!
Thanks for the rec. We all have a lot to learn. And we’re way behind the curve. Clearly the govt. isn’t going to do anything of importance, so the rest of us might as well get busy.
In many ways, we have always failed all our vets. We send the off into the gates of hell and then expect them to come home as though nothing had happened. From things I have heard from my father and others of his generation, it was just as bad or worse for them, because they were heroes and supposed to be proud of all that had happened.
I learned enough from my dad and uncles that I’ve never pushed the combat vets I’ve known on the issue. When Captain Countertenor got home, I told him that if he needed me to be an ear, I am available, but I’m not asking.
He had some things he wanted to talk about, and we did. None of them involved what he did in combat, though. And I respect that.
Ironically, I’d argue that the vets now are better off than the Nam vets were, in that, at least DoD has finally acknowledged that there is PTSD/TBI and has taken steps to address it, Nam Vets never had that…! 8-(
That will last until the GOP succeeds in completing its goal of gutting the VA medical programs.
From what I has seen and read, they are actually doing much better now than they have done in the past. Before Vietnam, you were supposed to come home like nothing had ever happened and they had to keep it all hidden inside. After Vietnam, when the problems became much more visible, they finally started developing programs to deal with the problems. In the last few wars they seem to have gotten a lot more proactive about the whole thing, though obviously it is not nearly enough and not everyone will seek help.
True…! Funny how they’re the most rabid ‘Support the Troops’ politicos too…! 8-(
Along with all other service related benefits. But of course, the Republicans love our troops and support the military, as long as they are willing to be cannon fodder in needless wars for little pay and minimal benefits.
But so many young vets are from small towns out in the sticks and not near a VA facility. Putting a name on it doesn’t do much to help if there is no help nearby. The older I get the more embarrassed I am by our failures.
And then we have the yahoos just splittin’ a gut to get into it with Iran and to march back into Iraq. It’s all very troubling.
@ Dr. Dick and CTuttle:
Irony is a bitch, especially when you’re on the receiving end of the hypocritical irony.
Time for me to toddle off. It is back to work and I am getting sexy in the morning with my gender and sexuality lecture (complete with monkey porn!). Take care all.
Couldn’t agree more with ya, M’dear…! *g*
Pleasant dreams, Dr. D…!
Don’t forget the puppet porn from Team America: World Police.
Thanks for the reminder of one of the few Movement masterworks. My heart soars like a hawk.
This is actually just pictures of mostly apes, but a couple of monkeys, engaged in various forms of “non-reproductive sex acts” to make the point about the indiscriminate nature of primate sexuality.
We got that lecture in the Comparative Psych class I took as an undergrad, complete with film of bonobos and patas monkeys.
Send a copy of the tape to Santorum, okay?
Laughing with Dr Pepper coming out nose…
Sounds like the very same clip I saw at one of my Psych classes…! ;-)
One in three US Military women are raped during their service http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=43361
Very possibly. My prof did her research on patas monkeys, which was why we were regaled with patas monkey stories.
I don’t find that the link works, but I have read that statistic. I think it speaks to the lack of discipline, to male ‘privilege’ and to the idea that less-evolved men are doing the volunteering (for whatever reason… financial or macho). I think the stats from what happened to nurses in Vietnam were similar.
Mamas, don’t let your sons grow up to be soldiers?
That is one of the saddest things that really pisses me off as a 20 yr. vet…! 8-(
I’ve never witnessed it, but, I’ve heard some serious horror stories…! It’s truly a travesty that all those chain-of-commands are still turning a blind eye to it…! 8-(
What troubles me in so many of the atrocities is that the folks standing by don’t seem to stand up and say NO. You’d have thought that one of the pissers would have said, “No, this is not right….and for god’s sake turn that camera off!” But, no. I’m sure that when women soldiers and nurses and local citizens are raped that plenty of people see it and don’t put a stop to it. Does not bode well when/if these guys come back to serve as govt watchers against the rest of us.
My whole beef with the pro-urinators is that they were the first folks to get all outraged at the treatment of the bodies of the four dead mercenaries in Fallujah, and the ones who cheered on the coalition forces when they chose to make a Lidice-style example of Fallujah.
None of the urinators would say anything like that — this was almost certainly a fireteam. The person who should have said something was the platoon sergeant (or maybe the company’s gunnery sergeant, or the platoon leader.)
Those guys are (all of them, and maybe up to the company CO) in very deep water that’s going to get really warm.
That’s different. Those were our guys, not the other guys.
/snark
Good night, folks.
But, see, that’s the problem…..if you sent your son off to war, wouldn’t you want him to be able to stand against that kind of behavior? That four of them plus camera man thought it was fun and funny speaks so poorly for all five of them. I’d love to hear that a sixth guy said, “I’m never going to be a part of such a thing” and walked away.
Same with the ghouls at Abu Ghraib…. you’d think there would have been someone who said, “No, not me. I may not be able to stop you but I sure as hell am not going to be a party to this.” You can’t risk getting fragged for tattling, of course, but I wonder if you can’t just walk away. Maybe not. But that would be really sad, wouldn’t it.
A report from Iraq said a women was locked up in a storage container and gang raped then left there locked up several days. She testified to Congress. Then there was the gunship video on wikileaks murdering civilians. Most of the atrocities are covered up. Pat Tillman shot by his own. War is not the answer.
While I don’t condone this type of behavior, I also will not badmouth these men without knowing the circumstances leading to this behavior. I will and do hold the spineless, greedy, arrogent, useless pieces of dogcrap in Washington responsible for putting these men in this position. This is and has been a useless war from the beginning. Started for the promotion of greed and the benefit of the military budget and their contractors. And ultimately the very pockets of the President and Congress. I believe we would be better served to ask what we could do to stop these wars that never should have started in the first place. I still maintain we should require congress to accompany and be part of any military action. Then we would immediately see a lasting peace on earth.
OT– Paging DrDick here and here if you are so inclined and thank you in advance.
So much said about the rightness and wrongness within the act itself. Not much said about the implications and effects beyond. Was it more advantageous to hype up the American GI rah-rah or consider the tactical error of hyping up the enemy’s rah-rah for the desecration?
If Iran ends up keeping that former U.S. Marine they caught on alleged act of war charges locked up forever or killed in a water-boarding “accident”, whose fault is that? (No reflection on who will be blamed.)