
"Big Foot's camp after Battle of Wounded Knee; U.S. soldiers amid scattered debris of camp" (photo: Library of Congress)
The coffee’s freshly ground, there’s a wide variety of teas and the sticky buns are homemade.
- Free Bradley Manning!!! “The prosecution of Pvt. Bradley Manning for inconvenient truth-telling is more proof of how hypocritical Official Washington is, especially when Manning’s case is compared to how Bush administration officials walked despite clear evidence that they sanctioned torture and other war crimes, notes ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern.”
- “The cost of borrowing faced by the Italian government has fallen sharply at its latest debt auction. The government raised 9bn euros ($11.8bn, £7.56bn) in short-term debt at half its previous interest rate. The interest on the six-month bills was 3.251%, down from 6.504% at the last similar auction in November.”
- Mitch Jeserich of Letters & Politics talks with Paul Dixon about “The Bonus Army: The Original “Occupy” Movement.”
- From Real News: “Voices From the Occupy Movement. Across the country, the Occupy Movement is developing new forms of exposing the 1%.”
- Amy Goodman: “All eyes are on Iowa this week, as the hodgepodge field of Republican contenders gallivants across that farm state seeking a win, or at least “momentum,” in the campaign for the party’s presidential nomination. But behind the scenes, a battle is being waged by Republicans – not against each other, but against American voters.”
- “Capital punishment faces its own death sentence in a growing number of US states as decades of ethical and political stalemate are being broken by a fresh focus on cold, hard cash. The weakened economy has recently drawn attention to an unexpected but stark fact: that sentencing someone to death costs more than life without parole.”
An anniversary – 121 years
When the first Europeans settled in what was to become the United States the country was home to a vast number of indigenous people. There were the Northeastern Woodlands tribes, the Southeastern Woodlands tribes, the Plains tribes and tribes further to the west. By the early 1800s most of the Northeastern and Southeastern tribes had either been killed off or forcibly moved to lands further to the west. The indigenous people of the Plains, however, continued their resistance to the invasion of the white man until the late 19th century.
On the morning of 29 December 1890 elements of the 7th Cavalry massacred between 150 and 300 (depending on the source) Miniconjou Lakota (Sioux) near Wounded Knee Creek on the Lakota Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota. This band of Miniconjou, led by Spotted Elk, had been escorted to the location the previous day by the cavalry. Probably unknown to Spotted Elk and his people, Sitting Bull had been killed at the Standing Rock Agency by Agency Police 2 weeks earlier, on 15 December. For all intents and purposes the subjugation of America’s indigenous population was complete.
I did not know then how much was ended. When I look back now from this high hill of my old age, I can still see the butchered women and children lying heaped and scattered all along the crooked gulch as plain as when I saw them with eyes still young. And I can see that something else died there in the bloody mud, and was buried in the blizzard. A people’s dream died there. It was a beautiful dream . . . . the nation’s hoop is broken and scattered. There is no center any longer, and the sacred tree is dead.
—- Black Elk (Black Elk Speaks: Being the Life Story of a Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux, John G Neihardt)
Native Americans have not given up their struggle with the US government, however. On 27 February 1973 a number of Oglala Lakota and American Indian Movement (AIM) members seized and occupied the town of Wounded Knee on the Pine Ridge Reservation and held it until 5 May. Earlier this year Native American ranchers and farmers agreed to a $680 million settlement with USDA. A land claim concerning the Black Hills is an ongoing dispute between the US government and the Lakota nation.
Never. Give. Up.
The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off.



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Morning!
SD, thanks for talking about the Native Americans. You are correct that they are still being oppressed.
Could you tell the cook not to dry his hands on his shirt?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxcUrebt8Xk
Oh! A happy 160th Birthday to YMCA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9OO0S5w2k&ob=av2e
Good morning Southern Dragon and Peasant Party.
Perfect timing for this topic SD and thank you.
Mornin’, Pups
“It was a beautiful dream…”
Who were the savages and who was savaged again ?
Enough for every man’s need but never enough for every man’s greed.
Thanks, SD. Here the Choctaw are trying to hold onto their water rights as the state of Oklahoma attempts to appropriate lakes and watersheds under its own authority. No doubt the oil companies are integral to the state plans.
Good Morning to you!
I wasn’t able to comment the other day when Southern Dragon shared the Cherokee Morning Song. I love that song.
Good Morning SD
For you and others who enjoy reading fiction once in a while, there is a book based on some factual events called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Thousand_White_Women.
I read it and I recommend it. It tells the story of a trade of brides for horses between the Northern Cheyene and the Fed Government. Naturally, it has a very nasty ending. But, it’s informative, in a walk a mile in someone else’s moccasins kind of way.
TWOOPH!
To the Choctaw: Fight like hell!
1) Manning is almost certainly guilty of what he is accused. But i consider him a whistleblower rather than a traitor, regardless of what the law reads. Were I president, I’d pardon him on the condition that he go in front of congress and tell everything. I’m thinking he’d have no problem with that. :-)
2) Excellent. Some of that ECB money is flowing back to cover the soverign debt. It looked iffy to me for awhile, but somewhere around 30% of the money taken hasn’t been used for other purposes. It’s only buying time, however. Th economic situtation hasn’t changed.
3) Blocked here, darn it.
4) Good. Keep at them.
5) Amy is right. I think the GOP plan is to try to get as many elections done as possible, before the poll tax is tossed. In many areas, they can count of friendly judges not to issue restraining orders, I think.
6) I’ve only been bellowing about costs for a decade, NOW finally somebody is listening. And the numbers have acutally got better, it used to be 10-1 death/life rather than 3-1.
And I think the Israeli’s are taking their lessons from how we dealt with the Indians to deal with the Palistinians. *gah*
Boxturtle (I’m tired of sticky buns, can I get a bagel?)
Yeah, and now they can’t even smoke the Peace Pipe. Even Poncho Villa sang about the poor turtles with no weed.
Good morning, SD and everyone! I was dismayed to discover that I had never heard of the Bonus Army until I watched a segment on (I think) Rachel Maddow about it. Dismayed, in that I can’t know everything, but that seems a very huge gap. I wonder if it was covered in my history classes and I’ve just forgotten, or whether it wasn’t discussed at all?
Good morning SoDrag and pups.
Thanks for the reminder of just how barbaric we have always been. At least now when I see naked displays of my fellow citizens overblown sense of entitlement and privilage I will remember they mindlessly come by honestly.
They are being very public with it, showing beautiful pictures of the lakes as they’ve maintained them.
Or how the Turks dealt with the Armenians.
Isreal need not talk about the horrors of Holocaust to me. I can no longer have sympathy going forward. For those stricken and their families, yes. For the use of political push, NOPE!
My history lessons did not cover public issues like labor, and annexation of Texas, out here in Texas.
*slides a bagel across the table* Would you like some cream cheese, smoked salmon, and tomato to go with it?
(I don’t do sticky buns, or much of anything sweet in the mornings, except brown sugar on my oatmeal.)
SD – you have a very scary looking governor.
My son, years ago (he’s 45) complained that his classes in high school repeatedly covered history up until Vietnam, and then they’d be over for the year and the next year (or semester) they’d start again. He finally deliberately took a course in college specifically covering Vietnam.
It was nice to hear your voice on the webinar last night. Puts a voice with a name. Good to have you as a respected voice at FDL. *g*
It’s like being unarmed in a locked room with an armed lunatic.
He looks like Voldemort. In fact, I’m sure I’ve seen side-by-side pictures of the two.
Edit: Jim White had a diary about it with a photo. Calls him Scottdemort.
http://my.firedoglake.com/jimwhite/tag/lord-voldemort/
Thank you! I kinda thought everyone would laugh at the Drawl.
Morning Demi sounds like a good book when you sit by the fire at night. Thanks for the recommendation. *g*
Here you go, Molly.
Voldemort. Is that what you whacky kids are calling Satan now?
Any disincentives to capital punishment should be welcome. However, I doubt the financial considerations are on jurors’ minds when they do the sentencing.
Legislatures in death penalty states don’t want to confront a more useful controversy: delegislating what’s on their books now. Instead, those states use workarounds to avoid throwing the switch. The proper chemical isn’t available or had been manufactured in the wrong place; the required attorney or doctor refuses to attend the execution, and so on.
Such dilatory obstacles provide a stopgap, but they are half measures which leave the process on the table. As long as the executions are nominally legal anywhere else, the robust killing states like Calif, Texas, etc., can point to a standard accepted by a substantial segment of the country as a whole, even when it’s not.
There is some danger in attempting to legislatively overturn the unused death penalty in moderate states. . .and losing that effort. Still it’s worth trying in the most receptive states at first. If a tipping point can be reached where the death penalty is more isolated maybe then it can be outlawed nationally, or SCOTUS might take note, and we’ll be done with it.
I reached the point of “A pox on both their houses” years ago.
Were i in charge, the first thing I would do is insist on UN monitored elections in Palistine. And I’d promise to respect the results, even if Hamas won again. I would go to the new leader and say “renounce violence, acknowledge Israels right to exist, and STOP THE ROCKETS and I’ll cut off Israels allowence until they stop construction in the West Bank and end the blockade”
With the rockets, construction and blockade stopped, we just might have a start we could build on.
Boxturtle (I’m not even president, and I can already feel Israel moving to impeach me)
Okay, I owe ya. Sliding an oj down the counter.
What BoxTurtle said.
Cream cheese, please. I could never understand how people could eat cold raw fish first thing in the morning.
My breakfast anymore is a protein bar. Dr says I gotta cut back on donuts.
Boxturtle (Yes, I’m looking for a different Dr. Why?)
If I have only one life, let me live it as a blond, but may I experience others uniqueness vicariously.
I think its a way to become more empathetic of others.
Pffftt!
You need not worry about Impeachment. It’s always off the table. Especially when crime is involved and the removal of rights.
I am Armenian and there is a book called “The Lions of Marash” which my grandmother has one of her stories in it. The persecution of the Armenians was very brutal more than people realize.
The easiest first step is for prosecutors not to seek the death penalty. Takes it off the table before trial.
Molly, can I have box turtles bagel With salmon?
(I could never understand why anyone would walk around with their house on their back.)
I was born in Kentucky and lived in North Carolina. I used to talk like that and I still say Ya’ll. *g*
At the VA here I worked with a psychiatrist who was Armenian. Hated Turks. The chief of psychiatry was a Turk. Both were 1st generation Americans, came here as young men. Many firework displays.
The jury is not supposed to consider costs and they shouldn’t, but I fear that what’s on jurors minds is simple revenge colored by prosecution created fear. “He’ll do it again” “You must send a message this won’t be tolerated” “He can’t be safely held, what if he gets out” “He’s a scary brown whatever caught with a white christian woman”.
Boxturtle (Okay, they can’t SAY the last, but they can sure imply it)
So you cut them back. And forth. Then you eat them.
It really isn’t raw fish, it’s smoked salmon. Yes, demi, you can have one with salmon. A little onion, too?
More for me thanks, as my daughter has named them squishy fish.
Definitively. In my reading of past history I have tried to imagine what it would be like and how I would have reacted in those situations. An eye opener for sure.
An Armenian who grew up in the D.C. area, Avedon laughs about there having to be two Armenian churches for the two factions, which as far as she could tell were different in that one hated Russians more than the other did.
Good for you, er Y’all!
Y’all come back now, ya hear.
On my mother’s side of the family we have Cherokee lineage. My great, great, great Grandmother was full blooded and married a visiting Frenchman here for a war. ;-)
I am trying to diet a bit, too, after way too many chocolate chip cookies I ate, in search of a cookie like the ones at the local bakery. Haven’t found it yet, but I’m going to switch to learning to make sourdough bread instead.
Good morning, freedom and coffee (and tea) lovers. I recall opening a high school history book sometime after the VN war ended, and being scandalized to see that one sngle paragraph, about 10-12 lines, was all the coverage given to the war. Unbelievable.
Good Morning Pups,
Mr. SD,
Even on days that I don’t have time for much more than a coffee to go, I’ve got to check out your excellent, educational news and history/poli-science pieces. So much more than mere headlines.
The main focus here in WI is being further assisted by the object of scorn. Loving it when past administration actions and decisions come back to bite them so quickly.
Except it seems to me that the major use of the death penalty is to force a plea deal. It’s a bargaining chip, to be dealt away. So the only folks who face it are the ones who stand up for their rights.
I wonder how many more cases would go to trial if the prosecutors couldn’t use that bit of blackmail. And I wonder how many would come back “Not Guilty”.
Boxturtle (I wonder about a lot of things. How does my husky know where to look in the fridge for the eggs?)
I bet there was. My grandmother was a very hostile women especially to Turks and various other ethnic groups.
The death penalty is over the moment they open the Jury pool to all Americans not just the one’s willing to kill.
No property taxes.
Boxturtle (And I always have a cold beer when I want one)
Just saw the gov. on msnbc saying he ran on a platform of ending collective bargaining, and happily the panelists smacked him down. (Can stand to watch because Joe is off today.)
I was sorta proud of my son for wanting to learn about it and being unhappy that it hadn’t been covered. I thought at the time that it might have been an accident of timing, as the classes worked their way through history and didn’t get to VN. This would have been in the late 70s and early 80s, since he graduated from H.S. in 1983.
I calls ‘em bait.
Boxturtle (Why eat a fish cold when you can cook it over an open fire?)
Yes, please and tomato too.
I received one of those upside down tomato hanging planters for xmas, from my middle son. He’s got my green thumb. And, I bought a new T plant yesterday. Has a few tiny tomatoes and lots of yellow blossoms. It’s been 80 all week. Watch. I’ll pot and hang that plant and it’ll start snowing or something.
Morning, popyeye. My uncle married an Iranian immigrant of Armenian descent. What an incredible treasure she was to my entire family. One of the warmest, most open hearts I have ever encountered. An effortlessly transcultural human being. Tragically killed in a car wreck when she was only 44, while vacationing in England. The family never really recovered from that loss. I still weep when I think of her.
Ah ha! I hadn’t thought of those two benefits.
And, wherever you go, you’re already home.
Okay, you won me over.
The VN war does not make for a convenient myth.
In the next version of the history book, the 10-12 lines may be condensed into a footnote.
Going to fix my daughter some whole grain pancakes for breakfast. I will BBL.
I worked in a bakery and one day took a red hot raised glazed donut out of and squeezed that sucker.
About 2 tablespoons full of grease came out and that was it for me and donuts. i confess i have succumbed to their siren call a few times since only to hate myself in the morning.
Good morning all.
Morning RC sorry for your loss. Yes my grandmother was a great lady to us as well. It’s so hard to lose someone that’s real close to you. I guess that’s why we have memories.
Don’t stir batter too much. Makes the pancakes tough.
I can’t even grow tomatoes in the summer, and here you are growing them in December!
All of this talk about bagels and lox and cream cheese is making my tummy rumble. I guess I’ll have to feed it. I usually toast half a whole wheat bagel and add light cream cheese and salmon and tomato. Not hugely unhealthful that way. And the salmon is good for me.
Funny you said that. The first time I received a notice about jury duty, I responded by saying I was vehemently against the death penalty. I never received another notice.
realitychecker,
We must start the conversation here about NDAA and what the people can do to get around it. IMO, it is the same as the death penalty.
Re Native Americans, no end to the national shame for what we did to them. I would happily see the entire country turned back to their control, and be happy to live under their laws and ways. Compared to what we have now, no contest. None at all.
Have to grow tomatoes in the winter in FL. Too hot in the summer. Last planting is in Feb.
Thanks. I usually don’t but I use Trader Joe’s multi-grain baking mix so sometimes you have to stir a little longer.
Good morning, eCAHN. On a thread late yesterday I was wondering if you were around. Do you remember Dakinekat from NO and her prescient predictions that all of the major banks are insolvent? This was well before the meltdown.
You wish. There is peer pressure on juries. You want to be known in Georgia as the person who let the fellow who murdered little Judy Mae escape execution?
There are very few people with the moral fibre to stand alone in an 11-1 vote.
Boxturtle (I’d do it, but I’m obnoxious anyway)
I’m very proud of my link to Native Americans. They are extremely intelligent in all manner of Non-Corporate living.
It sure can be a conversation killer in venues like this. How can we even know when we’ve crossed some line in some paranoid bureaucrat’s mind? You’re right, we need to prepare ourselves.
Funny coincidence here, too. I just got a jury duty questionnaire in the mail yesterday. Just means I’m probably in some pool of eligible citizens.
It usually says that one the package but the kiddies made pancakes Xmas morning, and they were actually tough from too much stirring. Hadn’t ever eaten one that turned out that way before.
Bradley Manning is guilty and also Dan Ellsberg. The brilliant Bmaz says so.
Actually, Bmaz has been prosecuting Bradley Manning and I think Bmaz feels good. In the world of Bmaz, the National Security State can commit any crime. And Bradley Manning’s Kangaroo Court is fantastic.
I don’t remember that, though the screen name seems vaguely familiar.
I have too much shade to grow much of anything except shade loving annuals and perennials. Tomatoes take a LOT of sun. A friend had a bunch of cherry tomato plants growing in her yard, and she said, “Help yourself to some” and it was like eating candy!
Sorta the same with lettuce and spinach in the Middle Atlantic. Have to plant in early spring and late summer. They won’t grow in the heat of summer.
Oh yes. No, I didn’t mean in the Morning Diner. We have to start the day better than that.
I couldn’t count the number of times I’ve thought that.
Those on the reservations don’t live nearly as well as their ancestors did. That said, Native Americans did get some justice when their claims against the BIA were settled for $3.4B a year ago or so. Native Americans alleged BIA had misused the trust funds set up for them.
She posted a lot for a period of time, then sorta disappeared. I think she may have been a college prof or something.
That surprises me. I would not expect that from Bmaz.
If you don’t care for passing judgement on your neighbors, follow my recommendation in 69 and you’ll get out of it.
So they won a measly $3.4 billion for an entire continent.
Did they ever get paid?
My memory is getting clearer. Did she live in NOLA?
I’ve seen quite a few comments from bmaz on Manning and it’s like he’s on the prosecution team. Sticks strictly to the law.
When was the last time the prosecution stuck to the law. Sounds implausible from what little I know.
Story: A friend of mine got a jury summons. He found the entire concept of forced jury service to be slavery and besides it was inconvienent. So when defense and prosecution sent him questionaires, the defense got answers like “He’s bound to be guilty or he wouldn’t be in court” “The police are always right” “fry ‘em all”. The prosecution got answers like “He’s a victim of society” “The police only picked him up because he was black” “I’m against death penalty in all circumstances, I think it’s racist”.
He congradulated himself on his brilliance and waited to be excused. I suppose it never occured to him that lawyers talk amongst themselves and both sides noticed the difference. And that lawyers and judges talk, too. He was quite suprised to be called in for formal questioning. he was even more suprised to be fined $100 and ordered locked up for the duration of the time the jury was seated.
The last straw for him was when he received the bill for his 4 day stay in jail.
Boxturtle (And thus was justice done)
This historian begins at the present and works backward using generational oral history as a “starting point”.
The students start by interviewing parents and grandparents.
Well, yes, but that is also a workaround in the short run. I hope to see the issue fought directly on its merits: the death penalty has become recognized as morally wrong. That’s what legislatures need to be pushed toward.
Otherwise, if we stop short for convenience, there’ll be new administrations which will eventually backtrack. Then the FDA will be told to approve an alternative, available, thrifty chemical. New prosecutors will be appointed who will support to the death penalty. Ways will be found to control the expense or use accounting tricks for cost conscious obsessives.
It would be more honest to confront this for the right reason, and more effective in the long term, even if it’s difficult to accomplish. I hope that doesn’t get lost in the mix.
They stick to the law when it’s convenient for those they’re trying to impress.
If he kept it simple and stated only that he objected on principle to convicting anyone, he wouldn’t have heard from the court again.
Have you read the sickening story of Na’ama Margolese, an eight-year old, religiously observant Jewish Israeli schoolgirl bullied by Jewish religious extremists who physically harassed her and called her a prostitute when she walked to school?
http ://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45794260/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/thousands-israel-protest-against-jewish-extremists/
Palestinians, Arab nations, and even Iran are no longer the main threat to the country. Israel is under existential threat from within. Due to the extremely high birthrate of the ultra-Orthodox (now amounting to more than 10% of the population), the secular foundations of the country may soon be irreparably undermined. (Although even some of the ultra-Orthodox are on Na’ama’s side). Turns out Israel is not so different from Iran, after all.
Last time I appeared for jury duty, I wrote that I thought the process was corrupt and would automatically vote against the more powerful party, which was teh USG. Got called for 4 voire dire anyhow, and declared my theory in open court on all 4 cases. Was not chosen, needless to say, and was dismissed like everyone else after 2 days. I just throw the notices in the garbage these days.
Mine turned out par excellent this morning.
Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.
US KIA Afghanistan: 1,859
US KIA Irak: 4,484
Afghan, Iraki and Pakistani casualties: estimates vary to over 1.5M
US MBS 2011: 44,888 and counting
Wounded Knee
No war but class war
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things
Namaste
Never. Give. Up.
Be fair Frank.
I do not think you quoted the whole jist of the conversation.
If you’re going to throw around accusations, how about taking it over to the Wheelhaus to BMAZ himself.?
I vaguely remember the name. Ruth and I were over at Atrios saying the same thing. However, I used more down to earth funny terms for it like, Lincoln Logs and Ruth used house of cards. We both meant imaginary money and falsehoods from the Fed.
Bmaz is following the law. The prosecution has a VERY solid case. Politically, it’s a bit gray but legally Manning is dog meat.
This does not mean that manning can’t sue for the conditions of his confinement.
Boxturtle (It’ll take a pardon to save him)
No, I haven’t read it and thanks for the link. The actions of the government simply turn my stomach. Oh, and I know they are going to call me anti-semetic or whatever. I stand by my principles.
One of my great recent revelations is that existential threats to PTB are mostly internal. Explains huge amounts of so-called foreign policy, which is propaganda oriented toward subduing domestic pop & diverting their attention from their domestic grievances against PTB.
Wunderful!
WOW. I don’t think this is that kind of questionnaire. Just asked if I was a resident of the county, if I had any felony convictions, voting eligibility, distance to the two local courthouses, etc.
That’s a fascinating story.
My only jury duty was a few years ago, and we found the accused not guilty. He probably WAS (it was some sort of drug offense, I think, and his “story” was pretty far fetched) but the prosecution didn’t do a very good job and we all had doubts.
You have to answer in the affirmative, you have no problem with state death, before you can serve on a PA jury.
Molly,
As BoxTurtle says, Bmaz was guiding us as an attorney to the pre-trial military type stuff. He pointed out the findings of fact that Manning did do something, which is by all sense of things considered guilt. Now, whether the whistleblowing will be dealt with is another issue for the real trial. The pre-trial unconvered many things such as the fact that Manning brought these things to the attention of his commanding officers before the leaks and nothing was said or done about it. He tried to go chain of command.
Thanks, J. That’s fair. And, I like fair.
We can’t do that here in Indiana. Big penalties for not responding.
Last time I actually served on a jury it was a murder case and I hung the jury. (It was way back when the shuttle exploded.) I have no idea whether the accused was guilty or not but he was retried and convicted.
Also, you must remember that the DOJ and Rove are working furiously to get Assange through Manning. If you have time, take a look at the comments over on the Dissenter from last night.
Seconded. Native Americans had, and have, a profound reverence for Mother Earth.
Good Morning, everyone.
NYC has too many other items on its agenda. Since I moved to the country I haven’t registered to vote & I don’t drive. So they have no way to get to me.
“Be fair.” Bmaz is always fair, to the neo-cons. Bmaz, to use a legal word, “slanders” Bradley Manning continuously.
Yes, I commented because Bmaz presented a false explanation of the why the Ellsberg trial was dismissed.
Now I will have to go read Bmaz’s piece at Emptywheel. I’ve always found him to be knowledgeable about the law (he IS a lawyer) and far from the implication Frank33 suggests.
And from what I read, Manning is guilty as charged. The fact that he should not be prosecuted, and that he has been treated inhumanely and declared guilty by Obama, doesn’t mean he didn’t do what the prosecution says he did.
Whether we like it is immaterial to the evidence. IANAL obviously, but that’s my impression.
Thank you. That explains why I was rubbed from the call list.
Good clean bloodless hands if he was put to death.
My memory doesn’t cover that name, but then proper names are one of my weaknesses, just don’t recall them easily.
Just read a comment the other day (from Greenwald) that the Ellsberg trial was dismissed because of the excessive zeal of Nixon gang for raiding the psychiatrist’s office. Is that incorrect?
Why was he retried? Isn’t that double jeopardy?
This was a very specific questionnaire about me, didn’t have any place to present my views. Just factual stuff, and I answered truthfully. If I get picked for a jury pool, I think there are additional questions. But being against the death penalty (which I am) would not get me out of serving on a drug case or some other such thing.
And actually, it was an interesting experience and only lasted one day, so not a burden to do it.
I don’t think she commented at Atrois. I remember seeing the name and comments elsewhere. Not bragging, but just saying that she was not the only person on Libral blogs sounding the alarm, and WE were!
If Manning is guilty, why are the leakers to Woodward not ferreted out and prosecuted. He publishes much more heavily classified info than Manning.
On one of Kevin Gosztola’s posts about 2 wks ago, bmaz commented that Bradley Manning was guilty. I saw the post much later and wasn’t able to comment in real time, but I left a comment to the effect that he gave the impression that he no longer believed in the concept of “innocent until proven guilty.” There was never a comment by bmaz in response, so I assume he never went back to the post later.
I wonder did the Indian culture have state secrets ?
How does one defend oneself against following illegal orders , according to the Nuremberg Principles ?
Hung jury on first trial, courtesy of me. Prosecution gets a do-over in the case of a hung jury.
Manning is different because they are going after Assange that is still a threat to the PTB. I’d like to encourage you to read the comments from last night at the Dissenter as well. Rove and the DOJ are involved in this.
I am a registered voter (but have not stated a party preference). I’m thinking about not voting next year, especially if my more local (i.e., Indiana) races are as bad as I expect. My DINO rep (Joe Donnelly) is going to be running for Senate, I think. He narrowly beat the fundie GOPer last time, and I’m sure she will run again. And if it’s Obama vs one of the clown car posse, that’s a waste of time too.
Visit the Wheelhouse every day. read everything. You’ll be better for it.
Boxturtle (IMO Frank33 is way off base on this one)
Indeed. ;-)
For me, the burden wasn’t the issue, it was the principle of passing judgement that I have a problem with. Although I too may have received a questionnaire, I volunteered a statement to that effect. That was sufficient to have them never contact me again.
I’m old enough to have been eligible for the draft during the VN war. I was never called, but if I had been, I would have made a pacifist statement that I’m sure would have had me do laundry and kitchen work with the Amish.
Yes, she was from NOLA. Sorry, just scrolled back and saw your comment.
She really seemed to have expertise, and was adamant that many banks were insolvent, and it was well BEFORE we were confronted with that fact.
I know the answer. Hint: I don’t use question marks when I post rhetorical questions.
Got it.
Rove, now there’s a real traitor. Talk about aiding the enemy – but as the big 0 says, we mustn’t look backwards.
Because those leakers advance the administrations goals. Manning, CLEARLY, did not.
Boxturtle (This has been another edition of snappy answers to rhetorical questions)
And they were right, of course.
Calling bmaz a Neo-con is definately not fair to Bmaz.
As a highly regarded criminal law attorney Bmaz is being “professional”
His personal views are irrelevant.
Get a clue.
Yes, and we do have to keep in mind that this is a hearing to see if the evidence warrants proceeding to trial, so the end result will not necessarily declare Manning guilty, just that there’s enough evidence.
The only way anyone could fall for the house mortgage boondoggle was really to believe that prices would go up forever and ever and ever. Obvious nonsense.
I do remember her. She posted pictures of her wonderfully restored gunshot house after Katrina. House came thru without damage as I recall. Yes, she was very knowledgeable about the economy & the banks.
In fairness, as a lawyer, he should be honestly talking about the law. Not right or wrong. The law does seem to prohibit what Ellsberg and Manning did. That doesn’t mean their acts were not also laudable acts of conscience.
See 136.
Got things that need to get done, thanks for good company.
bmaz will win himself no fans here or on ew by condemning Ellsberg & Manning. I don’t care what his professional creds are.
LMAO Great story.
Take good care.
I can’t. I just can’t spend any more time online reading blogs than I already do, or I wouldn’t get anything else done at all. I barely keep up with FDL and Krugman and Greenwald and Pierce (not to mention Taibbi and a couple of others I check occasionally). I don’t even read some of the posts at FDL unless they’re front-paged.
Yes, Emptywheel would be excellent and informative reading. But I have to draw the line somewhere.
Religious zealots ruin everything, everywhere.
Judge Byrne threw the Ellsberg case out. There were numerous governmental crimes including the illegal break-in of Ellsberg’s Doctor.
The CIA and FBI were a secret police then and now, who target truth tellers. The Irak war criminals are similarly conspiring with the military kangaroo court to keep their Irak war crimes secret.
It is all about breaking Bradley MAnning with torture and making him flip, to get Julian Assange. Does Bmaz think Bradley should flip?
Echan@146: Argh. I owe you a drink.
Boxturtle (And the reply feature is fubar for me again)
Not trying to cast aspersions.
Merely pointing out the context of bmaz remarks was wearing the “lawyer hat” and does not reflect his personal history or views.
I was at the previous dustup between Frank and bmaz. Seems too personal so I spoke up.
As Glenzilla points out, the U.S. pretended to have a rule of law before Ford pardoned Nixon, but not after.
Which is another reason why I think what bmaz types is irrelevant at its best. The USG agenda has nothing to do with the law, and bmaz is completely blind to that.
See 156.
OK. pups, breakfast and last cup of tea are gone, and the sewing machine beckons. Good progress yesterday, but I have to finish making the 9-year-old’s birthday gift so I can get it in the mail so it arrives by January 4th. I also have to make soup before the bones from Sunday’s rib roast spoil. Which means must do today!!
Have a good day, everyone. I will go back and read Bmaz’s comments on Emptywheel and Dissenter later.
Cheney didn’t bring torture into the picture for nothing.
bmaz can definitely be a mixed bag, on the personality level. We’ve had our clashes.
Sew carefully. Sounds like a nice day.
I’ll come back later for some soup, if I may.
Ford had no choice but to pardon Nixon. If Nixon went to trial, the “Cuban thing” would have come up, and that would have caused problems for “Warren Commission” Ford.
Sure you are!! I love homemade soup. Prolly more appealing to me in Indiana winter than to you in SoCal “winter” though.
I’ve had many dust ups with Bmaz before. He is not against Manning or being a whistleblower. He looks at the things before him through the eyes of an attorney.
Anyone can have their opinions of Bmaz, I would just like to remind that quick to classify is not a good attribute. He is a remarkable man and I’ve read his work for a long time.
Did you ever check out the Mary Ferrell website?
Even though we are going through a warm during the day spell, it still gets cold at night. Cold enough for soup, I mean.
Home made soup is the best. And, I’m going to make some beer bread today, so that will work.
I look at things thru the eyes of an economist. That does not prevent me from also looking for the real, but trying to hide it, agenda.
In fact, this late in life one of my regrets is that I did not look for the hidden agendas earlier.
On edit: Bradley Manning case, to repeat, has nothing to do with the law. So f bmaz “legal” analysis.
Glenzilla strikes again.
He discusses the “intellectual cowards” who falsely claim the two trials, Manning’s and Ellsberg’s are not similar.
It is funny that Bmaz’s defenders claim this is “personal”. We should allow his insults against Manning because it is “legal advice”. Choose sides. We are all targets of the Police State.
Thanks for letting me listen to the discussions today and for being tolerant of my non-topic comments.
If I don’t have new information to add, I just listen.
Have a good one, everybody.
Yes, I read that.
On edit: Glenzilla is also a lawyer. But he understands the bigger picture & bmaz either doesn’t or pretends not to bc he sides with the USG/neocon. Either way, who needs him.
LOL! And you, my dear friend are valuable for just that reason. You call Hippo Scat when you see it, just like I do! We are all after the Twooph anyway.
I left out an important point. Bmaz bashed the “flawed” report by Rainey Reitman, Access Blocked to Bradley Manning’s Hearing.
And Bmaz gets snarky and PERSONAL. Sister you got to understand it is a sandbox but it is a fantastic sandbox.
Bmaz was commenting on the hearing from the perspective of an objective legal analyst. The rest of you were doing something else.
Bmaz is a seasoned criminal trial attorney. He has experience with the military justice system. His comments were insightful.
Thanks for posting that photo. The foreground reveals not “debris” but dead Lakota, four of them, two closest to the camera uncovered, probably by the photographer.
Off to do some household chores see everyone later. Interesting conversations this morning. That’s why I love FDL. *g*
Sitting Bull was killed on the Standing Rock Agency, not far from where he was born by the Grand River. It was unknown to Spotted Elk because the places are approximately 250 miles apart.
Those tribes had names that they used to refer to themselves and names that their enemies used to refer to them. Sometimes we know both names, sometimes one or the other, and sometimes neither. And all are imperfectly transliterated in Spanish, English, or French. And some were the names of villages or towns that got recorded as entire tribes.
In the Southeast, wars led to massacres, removals, or migration to related villages or tribes. But more often villages acculturated to English society and eventually were absorbed through intermarriage. After 1800 many were classed as mulatto and intermarried with free blacks; after 1830, many of these families migrated out of the Southeast to avoid enslavement. For example, descendants of the Meherrin, Nottaway, and Occaneechi of southeast Virginia arrived by way of Ohio in Cass County, Michigan. Or the descendants of the Eno, Occaneechi, Sissipahaw (Saxapahaw), and Saponi of Southside Virginia and Central North Carolina formed a settlement in Orange County NC and survived by claiming they were Portuguese.
On this remembrance of a very sad day, let us also remember the folks of the Carolinas: the Cusabo, Yemassee, Santee, Pee Dee, Winyah, Roanoke, Tuscarora, Suara, Wateree, Catawba, Eno, and Cherokee. And the ancestors of the Lumbee and the Haliwa. And the descendants of the folks John White visited in 1584 in the villages of Secotan and Croatan.
And remember the tribes of the Pacific Coast who are obscure because they were not memorialized in accounts of “Indian wars”. And the many tribes of Spanish America, and those of Spanish America that was seized by the English or the United States.
The cultural diversity we have already lost and that remaining that is at risk of loss.
The picture of Spotted Elk was posed for the photographer by the soldiers. They turned him over and propped him up.
Agreed. Also true that he can be obnoxiously arrogant from time to time on a personal level, and that he has a certain reverence for the regime of legality that is naturally frustrating to outsiders.
Ah, yes, the dedicated “Indian Territory” to which the Choctaw and other “civilized tribes” were removed forcibly.
We forget how recent the idea is that genocide is a crime. And what all those victory arches represent.
Just a quick hello and this music
Black Elk Speaks
by Railroad Earth.
Hope to see you later, great discussion this a/m.
ohmmm
Hej, Omgirl.
It’s no wonder the kids are bored out of their gourds with high school.
What really counts is their standing in society going forward, avoiding jail, and where the seamy stuff eventually smears.
In Pentagon Papers Ellsberg “won” and Nixon’s operatives got smeared (well before Watergate). It took time, but what counted became the repugnant information divulged rather than the process used. I think history has given Ellsberg the leg up that way. That sets some precedent to chew upon.
Manning will be more problematic I’d bet, since it’s hard to imagine him not going to jail. Then, when he does go, that’s a stigma which will jump in front of whatever good he may have done. I think martyrdom will be tough to maintain there, but we’ll see.
I like your thought process, in general, but I think the most important thing from Manning’s perspective will, and should, be staying out of a cage.
Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu-Jamal may never leave prison but the system that locked them up has been exposed for the racist, corrupt system it is.
Have a great day OmAli. Maybe will see you tonight. I am taking my daughter to see Alvin and the Chipmunks. *g*
Exactly right, SD.
Unfortunately, the outcome for all the Native American groups was loss to the European invaders. The history of the groups already here is often very interesting and does not give a picture of everyone living in harmony.
I would like to recommend a book called Empire of the Summer Moon. It is a history of the Comanche Indians with emphasis on Quanah Parker, the last, and probably greatest, Comanche chief. I must admit that he is one of my heroes. Had there been a coalition of the native peoples under him or someone as strong as he, the history of the US empire expansion would have been different, especially in dealing with the Native Americans. As it was, they blocked expansion of the Spanish from the south and white Americans from the east for several years.
The Comanches were probably the greatest cavalry ever, and the US cavalry riding to the rescue were primarily foot soldiers using horses as transportation to get them to where they would fight on the ground.
I loved this work of fiction and highly recommend it.
Hmmm. SD always brings us so much thought-provoking info. So,
1) Can’t believe it’s already nearly 40 years since the second Wounded Knee. And Leonard Peltier is still in prison. I remember that siege vividly.
2) History in high school: I remember back in the dark ages of the mid-60′s, even my AP US History class didn’t quite make it to WWII – it was in the textbook, basically the end (the most recent large conflict, Vietnam was just heating up, so far as we knew) because we just ran out of time.
I remember thinking even then that it would just get harder and harder in the future to reach everything important. Something we covered would have to get left out for our children’s generation.
Not excusing omitting Vietnam in today’s classes, but that may be part of it.
I believe we did cover the Indian Wars to some extent. Before the RW tried to deliberately slant or leave out stuff they hate, I think we covered a lot of stuff that apparently is no longer in the coursework. I’m always hearing people say “we never covered that in school” about subjects that my school did cover. Sigh. Not that there wasn’t a patriotic point of view, but the facts were there more than you might expect.
3) bmaz on Bradley Manning: that piece quoted in particular was bmaz’s response to another piece that he felt lacked a real world understanding of the Art. 32 hearing.
He wasn’t saying what I think the poster here understood; he was pointing out what an article 32 hearing does, explaining the rules, and what could be brought up and not brought up. Also a hard-eyed lawyer’s perspective on what to expect.
In his statement about Daniel Ellsberg: well, yes, Ellsberg was guilty. A shocking statement? No, it isn’t. He did what he did, knowing it was illegal, and took the consequences.
That’s actually what civil disobedience is: you believe the law is wrong, you deliberately take action that violates the law, you use the opporunity of the trial to explain your reasons (altho’ that is tougher than it used to be), and you take your punishment, with the goal of getting the law overturned or legislatively changed.
Oh, and bmaz, like TBogg, is constitutionally (pun intended) snarky. I might not agree with him all the time, but I take his legal opinion very seriously.
In this case, I think the snark is mostly aimed at a reporter who did a pretty bad job of reporting on facts.
Oh, msmolly, I so understand! I admit I read emptywheel and bmaz less than I did when they were right here. I follow them on twitter, tho’, so if there’s something special I usually find out there and can go over to the “new” site.
There is so much to read online, and I spend way too much time here at the computer as it is.
If I ever get a full-time job I will be so much less well-informed.
I hope you don’t mind, but yeah, I think justice was done to your friend.
Jury service is a duty of a citizen. Our system may be breaking down, it sure as heck has lots of problems, but if we’re not to give up, we can’t duck jury duty, either.
I admit, I am somewhat relieved to not have been chosen for the jury panel I was screened on last month, mainly because the questions were tough and I saw the following week that the jury deadlocked after four days of deliberation. (I also thought the defense made an error or two in who they allowed on the jury, but the peremptories are limited, they may have had poor choices)
Nonetheless, I made no effort to get out of it (even tho’ a prospective employer was urging me to) because I think that’s a rotten thing to do. If we want the privileges of democracy we must be willing to do our own part, even when we think it is not working well.
Okay. Off my soapbox for now.
Hit a couple of my nerves this a.m. ; )
bmaz is a powerhouse. He doesn’t allow any lazy thinking or opining, which I like very much. He also said that he found value in what Manning did, but that it *was* criminal.
Well said.
and Southern Dragon: — thanks. Praise from you both is much appreciated.
Thanks for the wonderful synopsis.
You said much more eloquently what I was trying to express.
Thanks
(Personal note. I took Constitutitonal Law with bmaz at Arizona State
and he has forgotten more of that law that Obama knows!)
Thx. I didn’t know bmaz taught, too. Thanks for the kind words. S’funny, yesterday my brain just didn’t wanna cope with any reasoning, logic, or such hard stuff. Today it just kinda took off with my conscious assistance..
Actually we were classmates.
Aha! I am snagging the magic #200.
Had a great day. Finished one sewing project. Made some YUMMY beef noodle soup (I ate two bowls and wanted a third). And got called a purity troll over at Charlie Pierce’s for having the temerity to say Obama wasn’t pure as the driven snow. Life is good!
See everyone in the ayem.
You always make me smile.