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Barry Steven’s documentary Prosecutor focuses on the efforts of Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the International Criminal Court’s chief prosecutor, as he begins to try the ICC’s first case ever against Thomas Lubanga, the Congolese leader who stands accused of conscripting and enlisting children into his army. A warrant has also been issued for the arrest and trial of Sudan’s leader, Omar al-Bashir; but with no police force to enforce the warrant the ICC must rely on member states to cooperate. Today Reuters reports that:
Libya stood firm on Sunday over the trial of Muammar Gaddafi’s son Saif al-Islam, saying its courts could judge him fairly, defying the International Criminal Court, which says it is its right try him at The Hague for crimes against humanity…
The ICC is only supposed to try cases which nation states are unwilling or unable to prosecute, and here it is the strength of Libya’s judicial system that is in doubt…
A U.N. Security Council resolution passed in February in response to the crackdown on protesters imposes a duty on the Libyan authorities to cooperate with the ICC. The court says that Libya must either hand over Saif al-Islam or obtain the ICC’s permission to hold a trial in Libya.
Formed in 1998, the ICC is a permanent court, growing out of the Nuremberg trials and the Tribunal for Yugoslavia, including the trial of Slobodan Milošević. The film follows the chief prosecutor and his team through trial preparations and into the DR Congo and Uganda to meet with witnesses and heads of state, assuring refugees and victims that the world wants these crime to end.
Since its inception the ICC has faced controversy; over thirty states have not ratified the Court’s founding Rome Statutes, while Israel and the United States have “unsigned” the statutes, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and thus they have no legal obligations. Prosecutor begins in 2009 as the ICC is focusing on war crimes in Africa, drawing criticism that the ICC is ignoring crimes elsewhere such as Palestine and Afghanistan. There is also concern that the ICC’s issuing of warrants may increase violence as targeted leaders strike back in revenge. Is peace preferable to justice? Can you truly have one without the other?
It is a delicate balancing act, and Moreno-Ocampo, who successfully prosecuted the leaders of Argentina’s military regime for crimes against that country’s citizens–he later appeared as a television show judge, a la Judge Judy–compares it
to a football game: the referee has no fans. They need the referee but no one is supporting him
Is it possible for Moreno-Ocampo and the ICC to follow their mandate? Afghanistan is an ICC member state, and in Prosecutor, Moreno-Ocampo is urged to follow up on war crimes committed there, while Palestine suffers bombings of its citizens by Israel. Critics claim that the ICC does not wish to risk alienating the United States and is in fact a supplement to U.S. power. A representative of U.S. Christian conservatives urges him to stay away from the Gaza issues, citing lack of statehood for Palestine which could politicize the court as reason for ICC to step aside (though in reality there are other issues at play here). Moreno-Ocampo tells director Stevens:
I offer impartiality and respect for the law…one standard for everyone.
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Hello, Barry. Welcome to Firedoglake Movie Night and thank you for being here tonight!
Barry, what prompted you to make Prosecutor, and how was it to gain access?
I had originally wanted to make a film about World Government… a comedy documentary. I went to the ICC and met Luis Moreno-Ocampo — who I will call LMO — bcs I thought that the ICC might turn out to be the judicial arm of a future world govt.!!
I was pretty impressed with LMO… he said, Come with me to the Congo… I said, Why me? he said, bcs you are the first person to walk in here with a camera.
But I couldn’t persuade anyone that this court was significant. The media didn’t get it, liberals didn’t get it — the only people back then who understood how radical it was to have a permanent and global criminal court, were the Bush neo-cons. THEY understood it was a real challenge to absolute sovereign power, the power of leaders to do what they wanted regardless of law.
So six years later, Erna Paris wrote a book about int’l justice, my producers got funding, and we begged for access. People in LMO’s office said No way. But LMO understood the power of documentary to change people;s minds. And he said Yes. And he was the boss… so… we got amazing access.
LOL! He seems like a really HUGE personality. From prosecuting the Argentine military leaders, so adjudicating on TV to teaching at Ivy League school, he is focused and legally astute, as well as being VERY diplomatic.
Do you think the ICC can make a difference? And do you think Mahmood Mamdani’s criticisms–that the ICC operates with America’s blessings and therefore is very aware of America’s interests (I am paraphrasing a bit) have any merit?
Weird that liberals didn’t get it. To me it seems very a clear and obvious liberal issue, that crimes against humanity, war crimes, should be prosecuted…But I amy be fuzzy on high concept political labels :-)
How is the ICC funded?
I think the ICC is making a huge difference, yes. For example, if you want to use child soldiers in Africa, in Nepal, etc etc, you have to think twice… you could end up in jail. And so Nepal demoblized child soldiers. I can’t say it’s making much difference in rape and murder in the Congo… but I think in time, and I thnk even now that the idea of transnational, or supranational justice if you will, is sinking in. And people want justice. It’s natural.
Re Mamdani… well, to be very honest, i am a bit more cynical about the relationship of the ICC to the USA’s interests than I used to be. I felt that they rather used the ICC — legitimately — in Libya. It’s a bit hypocritical to support a Court that you refuse to be ruled by to prosecute other people.
Well, i just mean when i say liberals didn’t get it, that they were slow to realize it was radical, and frankly, slow to NOTICE it. the Neo-cons like John Bolton sure noticed it.
The ICC is funded by its member states. Like Germany, Japan and Canada — and about 115 other countries.
The Libyan situation is interesting, base don the news articles I read. I wonder who that will play out…
worth mentioning that a one hour version of “Prosecutor” is going to show again on Documentary Channel. I don’t know how many people get that channel in the USA… maybe 20 mill?
Maybe there’s info on their website as to the next b’cast.
The full length showed at Harvard Law last week… there may be other screenings coming up.
According to the rules, the ICC has jurisdiction over Seif Gaddafi and whomever the Court indicts. If Libya wants to try him now, supposedly they have to work that out with the ICC. Perhaps the ICC could assist them in trying the indictees in Libya, and ensure a fair trial. I don’t think it is in anyone’s interest to see him killed the way his father was.
The Documentary Channel – Listing
So the ICC superceded national interests, but the Libyans want to try him–except they lack the infrastructure?
How long were you filming? How many countries–I think I counted four..?
The footage is riveting as the soldiers were choppered out. Were you the cameraman?
They seem to want to try him… I don’t know Libya very well (the case started after we had finished the film) but my impression is, that the rule of law is going to be a bit shaky there. The trial of Saddam Hussein, despite his being no doubt a man with much blood on his hands, was not exemplary. I fear the same kind of trial in Libya.
Could you tell our readers about Moreno-Ocamp? His prosecution of the Argentinian “Dirty War” ? His rise to prominence?
I don’t know how many countries… I guess, the USA, the Netherlands, Ethiopia (but didn’t use), Chad, DR Congo.
Yeah, I was the cameraman on the helicopter rescue scene. I didn’t want to bring my DP in to that situation bcs it was likely to be a bit hairy.
Sadly I am not a great cameraman, so it’s a bit wild!
The camera work was effective, it conveyed the frantic nature of the escape. Were you shot at as you left?
LMO was the deputy prosecutor in the Trials of the Junta. What was so cool about that was that it was the first time I think that a country had prosecuted its head of state. (Well, I guess the trial of Charles I and the “trial”of Romanian dictator Ceausescu! But I mean, modern, fair trials.) Anyway, LMO and the other prosecutor put THREE heads of state in prison in their own country. Argentina has had many problems since then, but not the brutal mass murder of its own citizens by its own military and police. That’s what the rule of law can do.
We underestimate that in our countries, bcs by and large, our societies are based in law (with some awful exceptions, but I mean generally.
It was VERY exciting, and I loved the quote, “We need soldiers with guns not cameras!” as the Indian troops from the UN peace keepers were snapping shots of the action. Very telling
What happened to President
Al-Bashir of Sudan? Was there more cat-mouse travel by Al-Bashir? He is the only sitting head of state so far indicted by the ICC, yet it seems unlikely the Sudanese government will serve the new warrant on him…
No, we weren’t fired on, but the young Canadian who led the rescue — he had two local workers there. And they had the crap beaten out of them after we took off.
A week later, the same militia had a few real child soldiers run away to the UN. The militia this time did have their weapons ready and there was an armed standoff. The UN refused to let the child soldiers go back. The UN sent out an attack heli from Goma and that decided the matter… nobody got killed.
Actually, Gaddafi was the second head of state indicted, but that case is closed, sadly, for obvious reasons.
yes, al-Bashir later DID travel to other ICC countries even… the Court reprimanded Malawi for welcoming him.
Al-Bashir is a pretty rough leader… god knows what will happen in South Sudan, but another war is possible.
Good for the UN. Are there mineral resources in the Sudan? Arable land? what ARE they fighting for?
The US / Afghanistan relationship is discussed in the film. The US is not a party to the Rome Statues – and Afghanistan is. How do you think the ICC will handle “war crimes” in the war there?
How large is Moreno-Ocampo’s staff, is it worldwide? What is his budget to prosecute world-wide? What special training is required to work in the ICC? His staff seems drawn form around the world, based on the accents I heard.
What I actually predict is — not much. Someone said this court is a judicial institution operating in a political environment.
But I don’t want to be too cynical. LMO is putting out a report on his “preliminary examination” of alleged war crimes in Afghanistan. Obviously the Taliban has committed war crimes… and likely I would venture the Afghan gov’t. The widespread torture at Bagram AFB by USA — plus allegations of attacks on civilians might also be…. well, possibly criminal, I am sorry to say. I suspect that my own country, Canada, has handed over men likely knowing that they would be tortured in Afghanistan. Not good.
So we shall see in a few weeks what the ICC is going to do about Afghanistan.
Going up against the USA would be…. well, costly. That is not supposed to be a consideration, but it would threaten the court’s future.
It will take a while for justice to be universal!! if ever.
Gosh, now you have stumped me. I think LMO has about 700 people. The Court’s budget is over $100 mill per year. No, it’s not cheap.
They do indeed come from all over the world. And despite the USA’s refusal to join, there are many Americans working there.
Also, many Canadians, esp’y French Canadians bcs of the language and their facility with both Anglo-American common law and the French system of justice. And not having colonial baggage of Belgians and French, in Africa.
That’s amazing — the only ones who understood were the persons most actively trying to undermine the concept.
The Nuremberg Trials had a great influence upon internal law and on the ICC. The Nuremberg prosecutor who was influential in the ICC became an Honorary Prosecutor. Could you tell our readers about him?
Sudan — they are fighting for arable land, yes, in Darfur. Desertification (global warming?) has pinched resources.
But in the South… it’s oil. Oil. Oil.
This is interesting, I hadn’t thought of that – having the right people representing the ICC in each individual case.
Yes, it’s true Phoenix Woman. It’s ironic that they got it. the idea of US exceptionalism was threatened, theoretically. But of course, in reality, it’s unlikely that Americans will be prosecuted.
It’s sad the US won’t join — after all, Nuremberg was primarily an American idea. And way back in the Civil War, Lincoln laid out among the first modern rules of war.
The 18 judges each come from a different country, from the UK to S. Korea and African countries.
Why do you think the US and Israel “unsigned” the Rome Statutes?
Is LMO really that high energy all the time? always on the go? smiling all the time? He seems liked a great motivator to the whole team he has.
LMO’s energy is incredible, yes. Smiling? no. But he is good at being on camera. On the whole, he is pretty charming.
George W Bush unsigned it — which is very very rare and not very cool with a treaty signed by a country — bcs he hated the idea of the USA being subject to an international court in any way. In fact, the USA is subject to international law — many of which they accept, such as Geneva Conventions. But for Bush it was a non-starter. In fact, the Democrats also are very wary… some of them anyway. Pres. Clinton recommended that the Senate not ratify, even tho he signed.
Israel feels, I think (just my opinion) that they would not be fairly treated by the Court… which is not true, also in my opinion.
There is a saying from ancient Greece: the strong do what they will, and the weak seek justice. Cynical, perhaps.
Whoa…
Who defends the accused in the ICC? And who pays for the defense?
Sorry, missed the question about Ben Ferencz.
Lisa wrote “The Nuremberg Trials had a great influence upon internal law and on the ICC. The Nuremberg prosecutor who was influential in the ICC became an Honorary Prosecutor. Could you tell our readers about him?”
Ferencz is hilarious, like a Borscht belt comedian. He did the closing arguments in the first trial of the ICC, of an alleged warlord called Thomas Lubanga from Congo. He is 94 years old and has the energy of a 30 year old. He prosecuted 26 SS murderers. Convicted most, some were hanged. He chose the number of 26 (there could have been far more) bcs that was the maximum number of chairs in the courtroom.
NGOs are on the ground in a lot of the unrest / war situations. How do they figure into the ICC cases? Do NGOs report incidents? are they witnesses? And how difficult is it for the ICC to find witnesses? And for the defence to find witnesses to counter?
Some pretty distinguished lawyers defend the accused at the ICC…. Mme Mabille who represents Lubanga I think has done quite a lot of legal work in Africa on behalf of women. She’s French.
The Court pays for defense… but I think (and I am not sure) that if an accused has a lot of money (as one alleged warlord does), he does pay himself.
But if the accused has no money, they get a legal team paid for by the Court.
That is much like our system here in US.
Wow… these are good questions. NGOs do work with the Court, but it’s difficult. Bcs if they are too close to the Court, and they have to work in war zones, they can get into trouble. When I was filming in Chad near Darfur, and after al-Bashir had expelled NGOs bcs he accused them of passing false info to the Court, the NGOs were very nervous about even meeting with the ICC officials.
But NGOs made this Court happen as much as nations did. They had a big influence in Rome in ’98 when the Court was established.
Indeed, it is similar to the US where defense is provided if an accused does not have the means.
One scene that really stuck out for me was the vivist by the representative form a group of US conservatives who were trying ot suss out LMO’s willingness to prosecute Isrrael over bombings in Gaza. Could you talk about that a bit (and btw, I don’t think the guy was as concerned about the court’s longterm benefit as he was about protecting Israel for the own ends of his backers)
Yeah, that guy’s name is Jay Sekulow — he is a lawyer and talk show host in the USA. He is a Christian I believe and has represented Jews for Jesus, various anti-abortion interests, and so on. Before the Supreme Court of USA if I am not mistaken. There is of course often a sympathy between Christian Conservatives and Israel.
I agree, he and his allies were concerned with preventing an investigation of the possible war crimes committed in Gaza, which was requested by the Palestinian Authority.
What cases are before the ICC now? The lead time must be many, many years – and the actual prosecution almost as long. If found guilty, where would the person be imprisoned? or just sanctioned? Or is there the death penalty (shudder)?
Can the ICC use information from Adam Horowitz’s book, The Goldstone Report: The Legacy of the Landmark Investigation of the Gaza Conflict?
No death penalty!! imprisonment.
Six “situations” — i.e. countries, altho Darfur is the only part of Sudan in the Court. The others are Libya, Kenya, DR Congo, Central African REpublic and Uganda.
I can’t remember how many indictees there are… I will look it up. But three trials on now. One is about to get judgement in a matter of two or three weeks, i think. (Lubanga.)
Correction… Cote D’Ivoire (Ivory Coast) is also under investigation… there might be news on that soon.
Another number of situations such as Palestine, Afghanistan, Georgia etc are being looked into… and may result in investigations and possibly prosecutions… we shall see.
And Prosecutor will air on the Documentary Channel during December, beginning on Dec 11. Very timely, with Lubanga and now Seif Ghadafi. Are there plans for a DVD release?
I think there are 25 warrants or summons issued…. but maybe only five guys in jail in The Hague. Arresting is tough in war zones!
and of course there is no international police force.
But the USA is now helping Uganda hunt Joseph Kony, the notorious (alleged!) mass murderer.
it’s Documentary Channel…
Man, I would love to have a DVD release, but my co-producer — the wonderful National Film Board of Canada — has to wait til the French language version has been seen on TV in Quebec. Don’t ask: Canadian politics.
There will be a DVD release, and if anyone is interested, write to National Film Board (on web) and inquire, and when one is released (soon, I hope) we can get it sent.
We’ve had a couple films about Kony and his (now rehabbed) child soldiers on Movie Night. I hope on all everyone holds holy that he and other like him are stopped. So thank you very much for making Prosecutor so we can learn more about the efforts ot bring a civilized end to evil men.
You’re very welcome. It was a huge privilege to be able to document the transition from this Court getting started to now….. I do believe it’s historic and we shall be hearing much more.
Thanks so much for hosting this live chat!!
Thanks Barry! :-) I hope everyone makes an effort to see Prosecutor during its run on the Documentary Channel.
And thank you for being here with us tonight.
Good night!
Next week we have Becoming Santa, with director Jeff Myers and a brave man who changes his life to become a professional Santa, Jack Sanderson.