Governor Goodhair’s chances of actually winning the GOP nomination?

Zero.

He’s going to be fun as hell to watch, though. And hopefully he’ll do enough stupid shit to not get reelected as governor here in Texas next time around.

If given the choice between science or superstition right wingers will always chose superstition. They have the same mindset as the early Pilgrims of the 17th Century.

without looking at any delegates-by-states map – I still think he can win the nomination – a wet dream for Plouffe et al

See #1. A perfect example of how we can love each other and still disagree. *g*

No one has to believe in evolution.
Just like no one has to believe in oxygen molecules.
One does not have to believe that O2 is an electron acceptor.
One does not have to believe in oxidative phosphorylation.

Can we please ask Perry if he “believes” in oxidative phosphorylation.

Disagree.
It will be Perry/Bachmann 2012.
I got money on it.

He is truly frightening to watch. He has that zealot’s gleam in his eye.

Perry is in the lead in Iowa lets see how long that lasts I thought Trump was beating Mitt there awhile ago.
I think Perry’s lead is a result of GOP dissatisfaction with all the candidates they have now.
It will take the GOP a few months to realize what us political junkies took a few weeks to learn Perry is stupid.
Perry has a job creation record thats great if you like low wage jobs. Oh and Perry wants to cut SS and Medicare completely.
And now Perry is pulling a Mitt and denying his own views like Peter denying he knew Jesus three times.

I don’t understand how an adult in the 21st century can get up on the national stage and say, “I’m either willfully ignorant or a lying sack of shit and proud of it. Vote for me.” Oh, wait…

our polling suggests he’s perfectly in line with the GOP base

Actually Perry is line with the majority of Americans who believe that every word in the bible is the word of God.

According to a recent Gallup poll:

Forty-nine percent of those responding indicated their belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but not everything in it should be taken literally, while 30 percent of respondents said the Bible is the literal word of God and should be taken literally. So 79 percent of Americans — nearly eight out of 10 — believe the Bible to be the word of God, either inspired or literal.

This in Iowa, the first Midwestern state to allow same sex marriages (Lisa Derick, Apr. 3, 2009)? Or are they all Log Cabin Republicans?

we are doomed to live amongst the stooooooopit zombies

http://www.horror-movies.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/livingdead.jpg

And what difference does it make if the US president believes in evolution or doesn’t? He’s supposed to administer the country’s government and not its religions.

Mild earthquake in DC.
MSNBC says Pentagon being evacuated.

Perry is just Palin with a penis.

Tea Party ‘Grand Bagger’, Rick Perry, Bastardizes his Precious Bible

Swagger-puss Rick Perry has been in the news lately pontificating about a topic we can all agree is central to the future of the American economy and job creation: the verity of evolution. First he told a little boy that he (the little boy) was smart enough to decide for himself whether evolution or creationism was true.

Later he told a supporter in New Hampshire, “Well, God is how we got here. God may have done it in the blink of the eye or he may have done it over this long period of time, I don’t know. But I know how it got started.”

These exchanges tell us two things about Perry. First, he fits right in with the fact-free inhabitants of Baggerworld. Facts and science have no sway with Perry, who even if he doesn’t know what he does believe, at least knows what he’d prefer not to.

Second, Perry hasn’t read the Bible …

Article:
Tea Party ‘Grand Bagger’, Rick Perry, Bastardizes his Precious Bible

I’ve said it before, Perry, on a national stage, will likely self-destruct. He doesn;t believe in global warming, he doesn’t believe in evolution, he DOES believe that Texas has the right and perhaps even the obligation to seceede from the union, and that whole “earth revolving around the sun” thing, I’m not sure he buys that. He feels “anything that is ‘wrong’ with America can remedied by prayer”. Lastly, I’m not sure he doesn’t think “Africa” is a country too. I’ll bet he can’t tell you within 15 million, how many people live in the USA and/or vote.

We do support the idea that the Pres. should believe in facts….

What is Perry’s appeal to the most anti science GOPers is this sexism I thought Michelle had been locking this vote up on National TV for months but a man most people never heard of just walks in and says I’m anti science, I love the Fundy God and thats all it takes for the Fundies to leave Michelle?
I really thought Michelle and Sarah had an Evitia Peron cult of personality going on, I thought their support was more loyal.
But if even the fundies are dissatisfied with Michelle and hope Perry can be their savior it means even the GOP base is not happy with their options.
Unhappy supporters might be energized but they are less likely to vote than energized and happy or scared voters.

I think he has a tie that says that.

Saying now it was a 5.3, which is not that mild.
Now reporting 5.8.

I don’t remember that ever happening before, but I used to try to ignore DC

Evolution is reality. I may be prejudiced but I prefer my president to be in touch with reality.

Uhhh, it speaks to his/her critical thinking skills?

I’ve been wondering about Texas – the state has had a big population explosion with people moving there for employment (or whatever) and I am curious if it will change the far right make up of the state…I think the next election there could be interesting.

Make that an “and” :)

I wonder if they have been doing any fracking around there. DC is up close to West Virginia.

I had some hopes for the Deep South with all the similar migrations PLUS retireds. Nope no change in votes.

*G*

Note White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships and this. As things are presently structured, I think it does matter.

The religious right would rather have a man running for president than a woman. THEY will migrate to Perry, a man, over Bachmann in a New York minute. Remmeber a woman has never even been a party nominee. And Bachmann ain’t gonna be the first.

But, a Perry/Bachamnn ticket in ’12…….I wouldn’t bet against it. I don’t think it will happen. But, NBA finals, I had the Heat in 5.

Luzianne family size tea bags were buy one get one at Publix today.

If an earthquake opens some cracks in floors and roofs and that hurricane hits in a few days expect lots of water damage from leaks even if the hurricane is mostly just rain.

Excellent point!

Dat’s a lotta tea. I did remember to say 1 cup of sugar, didn’t I? I keep having this nagging thought that I left the amount out of my recipe.

Man my WHOLE house just shook…earthquake?

Actually that’s really good tea. You know it’s “specially Blended” for ice tea.

Centered in Charlotteville, VA.
The earth reminding us of who’s in charge. Not us.

“carguy308 August 23rd, 2011 at 11:03 am
31
In response to ThingsComeUndone @ 19 (show text)
The religious right would rather have a man running for president than a woman. THEY will migrate to Perry”

Agreed but the rush to abandon Michelle for Perry is whats surprising me I did not think America even the GOP was still that openly sexist.

Yeppers, demi, felt it about twenty-five minutes ago.

Word is, they felt it in Dee Cee.

Rumblings is.

DW

Oh, it takes a much larger shaker to get cracks and holes.

demi, OmAli and I were talking about southern iced tea, or sweet tea, the other day and I said that’s what I used. Made a fresh gallon last night, matter o’ fak.

i’ll bet the rick perry fans + jesus nutters are going to have a feild day with this one…

It seems that a good portion of the East Coast felt it. Interesting.

Yes, you did.

Carguy, SD has the recipe for true Southern Sweet Tea.

We have been drinking Ginger Peach, and it is good for a change.

I made a batch the other day and again this morning of that Celestial Seasoning Tension Tamer. With the many different herbs, no need for the sweetner.
I’ll just call it Souther California Ice Tea. *g*

To paraphrase the old Imperial (I think) margarine commercial:

It’s not nice to fuck with Mother Nature.

thought you typed “fetid” eeeeesssshhhhh

Need new glasses!

Welcome to our California world. I don’t pay much attention to them any more. :)

Get Right With Gaia

You know that’s right.

Thanks…that’s my brand….

My associate claims she felt it – her chair was vibrating – in Detroit. Detroit gets earthquakes but very rarely – fault comes from Toronto area.

It’s good cold or hot, don’t you think?

That’s still close to the doings in the WV mountains.

Iowa. What can you say about Iowa that does not involve eating deep-fat fried butter on a stick?

12 tea bags to a half gallon?

p.s. check your store flyer online…I’m in TN, not sure where you are…

Don’t wanna get ya all shook up …

But I thought ya might like to know,

The way things are goin’, every day…

Well the whole world just might blow.

(Sung in Elvis style, with throbbing guitars and boomin’ base, solerso …)

Any “bases” boomin?

DW

Doesn’t that just make you gag? I can’t think of anything worse – with the possible exception of liver.

That’s what the tv is reporting. Just looked at my US map (taped up in my hallway), and that seems like a long ways away from Virginia.

Now it’s a 5.9 – saw something about DC having an earthquake in July 2010…

We do support the idea that the Pres. should believe in facts….

Again, the fact is that most Americans believe that the Bible is the word of their god, and this is still a democracy isn’t it?

I only knowed cuz I learnt out thatta way, back in 69 it was …

No worries Twain, but I’m looking forward to the “it can’t happen here”/crowd’s “response” … Nearer their Gawd to them?

Got the cats and wee doggie excited for a moment.

DW

Yep, and really the best for cold….In Tex….

Evidently, evolution bypassed the people in Iowa. And, we let these people vote first?

Link to Night at the Creation Museum (sorry there is an unavoidable ad at the start, you might not want to waste your time) I LOL every time I see it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR8MGAsidFI

RevBev, I hope I’m not too offensive. I’m an awful blasphemer.

People have a right to live their lives according to the Bible, but I prefer that our country be run according to the Constitution. The two are not the same regardless of what the wingers say,

You are correct. And, everything is connected.

Uhhh, it speaks to his/her critical thinking skills?

So the majority of Americans (who believe that the Bible is the word of their god) aren’t critical thinkers?

Nah, they are going to say that we are all at fault, you watch, RO.

;~DW

I do not understand your sentence…..The fact may be the number you say believe Bible = word of God. That does not make it a fact, for instance, that a woman eating dust will prove adultery (ex. Lev.) Please clarify what facts you want to discuss.

Nope, Texas is still full of knuckle draggers too.

think i iterated that this morn……….g

I would say no they are not. That’s based on my experience.

Aw, man, no way.

Bring 4 cups of water to boil in a covered pan. Remove from heat and add 3 family size tea bags, re-cover. Steep for at least 10 minutes. Remove tea bags and stir in 1 cup sugar until completely dissolved. Put in gallon container and add cold water from fridge to fill. Put container in fridge. Voila.

That’s the ONLY way to do Southern Sweet Tea.

heh, here for your daily stir the pot time waster?

earthquake centered in Mineral, VA – there is a nuke plant in Mineral, VA.

7 nuclear plants on the East Coast have declared an “unusual event”. Two reactors at least have shut down.

I think I’ll go outside and watch my tea brew.
See yaz.

Thanks! My husband always makes it and I wanted to be sure he was doing it the right way! :^)

wonder why i didnt feel the EQ,im in Tn…next door to Va

Uh oh, one just up the pike from us. Guess I’d better check local news.

the Bible was written a few hundred years after Christ,no?

okay im going to the laundromat….many critters bedding needs washing…later

Ah, majority rule?

That where you’re going with this?

How many “believe” the Sun rises in the east?

As the World Turns.

And “we” are at the smack dab in the exact center of the universe.

And made Gawd in our image because She might be sumthin’ altogeher “different”?

We is a Christian nation, so we don’t haf to act thata way … which way did they go?

Let’s just aay, Yes & No….;)

I believe in plate tectonics. That’s physical science.

Oh, it takes a much larger shaker to get cracks and holes.

Thanks for the info Demi:)

Reply is not working for me nor the toolbar quotes FDL have another bug or is it just me?

It’s not a book. It’s a library. And, heavily censored and edited. Right?

Oh theys “critical” all-right … in sech “condition” …if ya catch me ‘drift”?

Thinkin’?

Not so much, ‘twould appear … like a burning Bush.

You savvy?

Or tweakin’ sow’s ears?

I would say a majority of the buildings on the east coast are not built within earthquake standards. A 5 point could do quite a bit of damage to those that are not.

The Old Testament was written down while the Jews were being held in Babylon so that their oral traditions wouldn’t be lost, about 3-4000 years ago. The New Testament’s first books were written about 50-70 years after the death of Jesus.

ignorance is bull-iss

Yep, collected, edited, etc. And an important council that determined which writings made the cut….that’s why there are some extra books in the Catholic Bible…a tiny piece of disagreement, if you can imagine….;)

Again, the fact is that most Americans believe that the Bible is the word of their god, and this is still a democracy isn’t it?

Church and State are supposed to be separate believe what ever you want don’t try and force your belief on others.
I am in favor of no work on the sabbath which is a commandment. I am in favor of Americans getting enough pay so they don’t have to work at least one day a week.
Funny the bible guys ignore the 10 commandments and try and argue the little stuff. I suppose their objection to Unions is Slaves should obey their masters?

OT: Not really.

I was busy here at home and felt the house wiggle, the ground rumble and it was not nice. Jumped back on the tubes to find that Virginia had a 5.8 earthquake!

I think it must be larger since we felt it down here in South Carolina!

Dunno about the button.
The Northridge quake was pretty bad. I thought I remembered that it was in the 7′s in terms of power, but that’s not what the wiki says.
There’s a lot of factors, actually what kind of earthquake it is…how the plates underneath connect, what kind of reinforcement the buildings have. I guess I can see why the congress was evacuated. It’s a pretty old building. It doesn’t take much to get hanging light fixtures to start swinging. Unreinforced brick buildings are easier to topple.
I’m not an expert, but I’ve experienced several big ones.

What they chose to be in the canon was so subjective. We will probably never know what documents they chose to leave out and destroy. Here’s to biblical archaeology.

I would say a majority of the buildings on the east coast are not built within earthquake standards. A 5 point could do quite a bit of damage to those that are not.

True and the East coast has a bunch of older buildings built before earthquake standards.

5.8 is a pretty good jolt, even by California seismic standards.

Me savvy and ditto.

Reply still not working for me Demi I’m sure the FDL techs will fix it. But is this a warning quake or the main event is my question.

You pupses have a good afternoon, back to the scullery.

ohmmmmm

Council of Nicea. Yep. We lost some valuable history just so two opposing sides could agree on one theory. Too bad that happened.

Doesn’t that make it interesting? I almost always include a note that the earliest NT writings are from Paul….people get surprised and really interested…..When you think how old most of it is….it’s all still pretty amazing.

From what I’ve heard, even the seismic authorities at Cal Tech can’t really say or predict. That’s what I remember anyway.
Putting the biblical conversation and the EQ one together:
The kingdom of earthquakes is at hand. The only thing we can do is to be prepared. Like good scouts. *g*

More than 50 miles southwest of DC (off I-95 nearer to Richmond and Charlotte) is the North Anna Power Station, Unit 1 at Lake Anna in Louisa County, Virginia.

Yes, that Nicine council that has made me memorize and repeat their creed since childhood. Funny, that creed has some strange words to Protestants too.

People are reporting real damage close to center – a store’s floors buckled up and ceiling fell…North Anna nuke plant had both reactors shut down – I am trying to find out if any fracking was going on nearby. There is a fault line through Mineral, VA (why keep building nuke plants on a fault line???)

Question for you Reverand:

I’ve studied Paul for years. I keep going back to what he refers to as the thorn in his side. For me, it makes me think of his preference to men. Now, don’t blow a gasket on that. Just want to know what you may think his thorn might be.

If the question is are people who don’t believe in evolution or global warming critical thinkers we should first ask are they honest in their beliefs?
How many believe because it affects their jobs? How many believe just because we claim the opposite?
An honest disbelief comes from looking at the data and finding real problems with the data not from having a belief first then looking for holes in the data.
Given how much the GOP lies about Global Warming it seems they can’t find any holes.

Im not sure anyone knows…Ive heard vision/blindness; also serious skin condition…No gasket trouble…I think there was some ailment that was not clearly named, if I recall correctly.

People are reporting real damage close to center – a store’s floors buckled up and ceiling fell…North Anna nuke plant had both reactors shut down – I am trying to find out if any fracking was going on nearby. There is a fault line through Mineral, VA (why keep building nuke plants on a fault line???)

Emergency shutdown takes awhile add a quake near fracking and a nuclear plant…Crap we might a get a lesson in geology, radiation and ground water flow.

Epicenter of the quake = Richmond is what Ive heard…felt as far away as Boston. Yikes

Thanks. I also think there are lots we could learn from the Gnostic Gospels that the Nicine crowd decided to throw out.

I’m old enough to ‘member when that was all contentious like …

About the time I was looking at a world map and saw that South America fitted real nice into Africa …

But all that took place more than 6000 years ago, so …

Human beings might have minds but they don’t have to use them.

Might not survive, but then some wag will always say, “Ya call THIS livin’?”

Thick as bricks these motars be, demi.

Hard to take ‘em seriously … now stop that laffin’! Okay, okay … I’m try… (eeee… ah.. hah! er.. gasp) …ing.

Okay, I’m normal now …. (hah! not me, never!)

Yes, demi, you were sayiing …?

;~DW

I’m pretty sure Rick Perry doesn’t believe in “plate tectonics” either. The continents sliding around the earth on top of a sea of molten iron???????

Earthquakes are God’s way of telling us he doesn’t approve of our behavior.

Them people in Virginia musta pissed off the Big Guy.

You silly boy. The joke around here is why be normal? No way, jose.

True. I wonder if the “religious” right knows that a group of people decided which books to include in the Bible. If all of it is supposed to be the WORD then who told them to leave out some books?

Yes, but that was before bipartisanshippery had set sail.

Ah, the halcyon days of yesteryear, demi, the grass looked greener, the birds sounded sweeter, the brooks babbled clearer.

Not so! Except about the brooks.

;~DW

Ok then Texas’s drought is God’s disapproval of Perry? God also sends victory in war as I recall in the bible God does not want us fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Hmmm? I like this game!
God does like the rich getting tax cuts and thinks they should donate all their goods to the poor?

Maybe so….Didn’t he promise not to flood us again, but not a word about earthquakes,iirc….Thanks for the reminder

Pat Robertson will go on tv and blame gays, lesbians, and liberals.

Insistence on the Nicene Creed has just about destroyed the more liberal protestant denominations. — and leaves a lot of us spiritual humanists out here making it up as we go.

Human Beans. Silly things. One idea just does not have to preclude another, I don’t think. We’re all still in kindiegarten.
Going to go do some more homework.
(((DW))) – as always.

Straight up, sister.

Ha!

So true. Take out the books that are about women, written by women, or anything that does not fit with our Authority over the blessed!

Ahhh-Men!

I am very spiritual. I just can’t follow the religious hate that is in most all of the congregations and pulpits in my area. I think that many of our churches have been taken over by the 700 Club and John Hagee types.

Evolution isn’t religion though, it’s science. The fact that someone can’t differentiate between a fact and faith would be a large problem for me. I say that as someone who does believe in God.

It’s scary that so many people think that logic shouldn’t be a required component of a Presidential candidate.

I always worry that something might have gotten confused in “translation”.

Remember when W said that he talked to God on a regular basis?

(Of course I always imagined it was Cheney in the next room … but I do suffers from a defectilated imaginatinator, so I might be confusulating something).

RevBev you are a very “good sport” to put up with all of us atheists and “other” believers, and I appreciate your wise perspectives because of that tolerance, but mostly, and truly because I value, very much, your deep and abiding humanity and your obviously genuine respect for and clear concern for everybody, for ALL of humanity.

Just so you know.

DW

Yep, the FAULT is ours, Twain.

(One can imagine it now and hear it later – must be the “left” creates its own “reality”?)

;~DW

I don’t know about that. Everybody says Jesus was a liberal. Now, the gays and lesbians being responsaible for earthquakes……I don;t know……that’s a stretch. But, I’m no geologist.:-)

O my dear….You must be very careful…Demi and I both will be in love with you….Thank you for such a thoughtful note. B.

“…hence the GOP establishment’s panic…”

Spot. On.

Every inch the flatearthers drag the republican party to the right, scares independents. Not enough to support Obama again, I believe, but it scares them.

Of course, if it makes Obama look like he IS a “centrist” then we have to deal with that nonsense.

My brother lives in WV and they are Fracking crazy.

Swarms of Texans raping the earth , full bore. It’s like a race to make as much as possible before we lock up these fucking corporate Nutcases

Which sex found the empty grave ?

Clue The boys split

It is ridiculous for the writer to confound creationism (i.e. denial of evolution) with skepticism about the theory of anthropogenic global warming. The theory of evolution, universally accepted by scientists, is supported by thousands of pieces of evidence and experiments. The theory of anthropogenic global warming is disputed by thousands of scientists; it is based largely on the output of computer simulation models; and its underlying assumptions are challenged by many contrary facts, including both current observations and investigations of the actual record of climate change. I have wondered why believers in global warming often liken skeptics of their theory to creationists and “deniers” (with reference to Holocaust deniers). I have concluded this is because they feel compelled to issue ad hominem attacks rather than deal with the reality that their theories of catastrophic anthropogenic global warming are crumbling. When you feel threatened, go with the ad hominem attack, it is easier than arguing the science.

and yet most of you people would love for a progressive to challenge bho, and thereby putting perry or bachmann
in office.
yeah,the choices suck, but seriously????

My experience exactly. Even the UCC and Unitarians in my area are into the supernatural and awfully parochial.

Perry in the race gives an advantage to Romney. With Perry splitting the evangelical vote with Bachmann (a vote that Romney the Mormon would never get) Mitt has a real chance at getting delegates in the South and midwest Bible Belt–esp in the midwest, where he was going to be destroyed in the primaries. The Christianistas hate Romney but with a split vote it’s “game on”.

Yes, I certainly don’t want to offend you (or the pastors in my family) but if we could let go the unquestioning belief in favor of the beauty of the poetry and the metaphorical meanings behind Christianity it would work so much better, for me at least.

Nope.

I always worry that something might have gotten confused in “translation”.

One example was when God said “celebrate” and the monk wrote down “celibate.”

The lesser of two evils still is evil.

Ddub ( :o) ): some of the better snark on here lately. :o)

And we live in a time, and with a preznint and democratic party where snark is about all we have left.

OTOH, Bachmann’s piggy bank might dry up soon with Perry in the race. One she’s OUT, Perry will probably get her supporters. And their money. The question in my mind is how quickly will it become a two person race????

Actually, a lot of them may be found in the Nag Hamadi Library Irenaeus specifically named these texts as heretical.

The idea that challenging Obama is going to help the snake-twirlers is part of the reason we’re up shit creek. Pimping the notion that we HAVE to hold still for the hosing we’re getting from the guy whom most of us supported and sent money to, is playing right into the hands of the status-quo’rs, and is the surest guarantee that no change will take place, while the ‘bots sing frabjous day every time Obama farts toward the left side of the Oval Office.

I think that many of our churches have been taken over by the 700 Club and John Hagee types.

Absolutely! I’ve witnessed that transformation in my rightwing fundie family and the “churches” that they attend. Never forget the powerful influence of the evil that is Doug Coe, and his very powerful “Family” or “Fellowship,” which works with and/or runs the 700 Club. Coe & his “Family” are a big nexis for what’s happened with the so-called “Christian” church in the USA.

Of course, not all churches have been co-opted/taken over by these rightwing creeps, but far too many have been. And most of them are very very busy doing direct political action from the pulpit and in the Sunday schools and church socials, etc.

Yes. But there are other options, such as voting third party, which is definitely what I will do.

The theory of anthropogenic global warming is disputed by thousands of scientists.

Over 90% of climate scientists and every major scientific body in the world doesn’t dispute it.

heh… good one!

LOL

the ‘bots sing frabjous day every time Obama farts toward the left side of the Oval Office.

Quote of the DAY!!!

You might be right about that–Perry has a cohort of very wealthy yahoos behind him and
Bachmann seems to be funded by the lesser rich. And, Bachmann supporters would flock to Perry because, in spite of him being for the rich elite, he is a True Believer, just like them. Actually, he’s a snake-oil salesman, but snake oil salesmen make a good living off the rubes. If Bachmann’s (or Perry’s, one of the two) candidacy doesn’t collapse, however, Romney has a good shot. Splitting the vote is his only hope.

There’s probably no other people on earth who believe in the Bible as much as Americans do. The majority think it’s the word of God, and most of those believe it should be taken literally. That’s a fact about the country we live in.

Any politician who would claim that these people were wrong wouldn’t be in US politics very long. On the other hand, saying that he agreed with them would probably garner him some votes from the values crowd. That’s what Perry is doing. He’s not the first and he won’t be the last.

My remarks address evolution. I agree with tpinlb there using evolution and global warming together is apples and oranges.

Play it safe, assume they’re evil until you know otherwise.

that’s a nonsensical false equivalency.
how far can you take it? hitler = rove?

If there was ever proof men are closely related to apes, Iowa Republicans are it.

As we know, science is not predicated on appeals to authority, or about how many scientists believe a theory; it is about how well the theory can make predictions and testable hypotheses that are verifiable. The power of evolution theory is its ability to make hypotheses that have been verified. To cite but a few failures of the theory of anthropogenic global warming, it cannot explain why temperatures were higher in the medieval warm period when CO2 was low; or why temperatures declined from 1940 to 1970 while CO2 increased; or why temperatures have flattened out for the last decade; or why cosmic ray flux is tightly correlated to global temperature in the paleoclimate record. With the theory of anthropogenic global warming there is a real scientific debate, which there is not in the case of evolution vs. creationism.

V-2 rockets=armed drones.

Poland “threat”=Iraq “threat”

Final “solution”=”endless war”

What you got?

(none of that “up=down” stuff, please, lama-kin)

No it’s not a “nonsensical false equivalency.”

There are other options besides reflexively voting for the carefully vetted “candidates” from the two branches of the Corporate-Plutocracy party.

Vote however you like, but there’s precious little difference between Rick Perry, Michele Bachmann and Barack Hussein Obama. The presidency of any of those three would be indistinguishable from the other, much as there is no difference between the Admin of GW Bushco and the Admin of Obamaco (expect that in many areas, obama is worse because he LIED about what he was going to do).

IMO, Perry or Bachmann represent the lesser of 2 evils v. Obama bc at least with Perry or Bachmann we KNOW what we’re getting. Who’s the more cunning snake oil salesman? I say: Obama… esp if Obama has anyone convinced that he represents the “lesser” of 2 evils.

So you postulate that, as we have not yet full information, it is “wiser” to suggest that humans have NO effect upon their environment? Maybe even effects which we cannot, as yet, fully understand, or even discern?

Why not err on the side of likely or probable caution?

In other words, tpinlb, what will you suffer if we act with considerably more caution in what we do?

How does considering changing our behaviors limit you, personally?

How does it limit anything but excessive “exuberance”?

Got answers?

Share them, please.

Obomba care = republican care

If I recall the GOP primaries are “winner take all” aren’t they. That could make for some kn teresting results.

PLease corect me if I am wrong.

Restricting the use of fossil fuels on a global basis is not the more cautious approach. There is a desperate need for more electricity generating plants and transportation systems throughout the third world. The lack of electricity and inadequate road transportation causes misery, suffering and death throughout the world.

I do not consider the construction of coal powered power plants in India, China, or Africa to be “excessive exuberance,” rather this is a technological and economic imperative for the betterment of the human condition.
The use of catastrophic CO2 warming theory as a reason to deny fossil fuels to the third world is a radical proposition, not a conservative approach. We know that restricting electricity production or dramatically raising its cost (with inefficient solar and wind schemes) will directly result in misery, hunger and death for many in the third world. The predictions of catastrophic effect from anthropogenic global warming are much more debatable and uncertain.
The world requires massive increases in energy production if ten billion people are to enjoy a good standard of living – from my perspective this is the cautious position.

Yeah, I’m going to stick with Oxford and MIT and Caltech and Cambridge and every other major research university in the world over your arguments for now, thanks.

The use of catastrophic CO2 warming theory as a reason to deny fossil fuels to the third world is a radical proposition, not a conservative approach.

You are a fool. Been to the Arctic Ocean lately?. How about Antarctica calving ice bergs the size of Manhattan Island. — or those really big hurricanes and daytime temps in Little Rock of all places of 115. Or the multiple earthquakes in Arkansas related to fracking? We just may be past the tipping point already.

Solar is highly efficient and now even businesses such as Wal Mart are turning to it. Petro chemicals and coal are dead meat, It is just a matter of how long the stupid who don’t believe in evolution continue to try to profit from them.

Lies by scientists paid by Exxon Mobil.

When you listen to these moronic Republican candidates, and their equally moronic supporters in the GOP, you’d think we were still in the 17th century when we burned witches at stake. It’s amazing to see so many people so stupid, ignorant, and dumb as hell, and so damned proud of it. I knew there was a certain percentage of Americans who were dumber than a rock, and those people would always support the GOP, but this truly amazing. It’s like watching some damned movie where the screenwriter and director created these backwoods people called the GOP, but they’re real!

but they’re real!

That’s the problem.

Solar is much more expensive than coal, and if you don’t know that you are uninformed. So you would deny to India, China and Africa the ability to develop their economies with fossil fuels? They are also building next generation nuclear power plants. But we know what is better for them and their people because we are well informed North American environmentalists?

The question is not whether CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the question is whether increases in CO2 will lead to catastrophic warming through some hypothetical positive feedback mechanism for which there is zero evidence.

And what with the evolution reference? And you persist with your ad hominem attacks.

What lies by scientists paid by Exxon Mobil are you referring to?

Thank you for responding,as I now have a far better understanding of where you are coming from.

Are you willing to consider that were the US to spend less on hegemony, that is the effort to gain or maintain control over resources, that the US might be able to help the countries you mention build either more efficient “systems” than we have built or even to help them move to energy independence using more “evolved” technology? Solar comes readily to mind and looks to be a major component of “satisfying” everyone’s need of clean, and affordable electricity.

I suggest that solar energy is the best means forward as the sun is what powers the principle energy cycles on this planet, anyway.

Would you be willing to consider these options?

As someone who is obviously concerned with the needs of humanity you must recognize the dangers inherent to our species should w continuine to pursue dirty and destructive methodologies, Fukashima being clearly an example which it would be wise not to repeat.

Developing countries certainly have a right to a better standard of living yet we must reconsider how we, ourselves, live and also the destructive effects which our global corporate policies are having on everyone … including ourselves.

Care to discuss this further, tpinlb?

I’m game if you are.

DW

Just to enlighten you, since you seem so confused as to why us climate change believers are out here, its because we depend on science and not the 100 to 200 (not thousands as you claim)scientists who just happen to be on the payroll of the oil companies. First, science is not an exact thing, that’s why they have a construct called trial and error. You run models based on data, and draw conclusions from the data. It’s not always correct, but its how we’ve done this for 100 years now.

Second, the “weather” you are observing is the result of climate change. You can’t observe climate change, you can only view the results of climate change. The weather report doesn’t deal with climate change, it deals with weather. Climate deals with complex statistics and data dealing with barometric pressure, moisture in the air, pressure from gulf streams, rising temperatures in the atmosphere etc. These changes, no matter how insignificant they may seem to you, have significant changes to the total climate patterns worldwide. You see, these things weather men/women aren’t equipped to deal with.

Third, the weather patterns we are seeing now are the very same patterns that were predicted 20 years ago. If you bothered to read the reports, or credible ananalysis by credible scientists, you’d know this. Fourth, what do scientists have to gain from their advocacy for the government to act. Oh, that’s right, they want money from the government to fund their research, right, isn’t that the right wing lie being told about them. If that’s the reason, they could just as easy tell the lies told by climate denial scientists (some of whom have recanted their denial), and get millions upon millions of dollars from the oil and gas industry.

I keep hoping and praying one day this nation will wake up and see scientific facts as they are. I keep waiting for some sign of intelligence to awaken in the people who imagined us going to the moon under JFK. I guess that’s asking for too much. It angers me to see a nation of Americans, because of pure greed and stupidity, fail to meet the great challenges facing us, and not their small little minds be manipulated by people who have an obvious interest in keeping things they way they are, ITS CALLED PROFIT!!!!

On grid solar is currently more expensive but off grid solar production may be much more affordable were we to develope that technology.

Solar for heating, homes or wather, is currently feasible in many places.

And the true social costs of coal, for example have NEVER been honestly calculated, tpinlb.

May I ask what your profession might be, and whether it is such that you have expertise in energy?

I assure you that you will find considerable expertise among commenters here, some professional and some hands-on. Might you be willing to hear what they have to say on these matters?

DW

“what you got”?????
what are you doing, calling me out in the schoolyard?
“no more of that”?????
you seem like the schoolmaster in a dicken’s novel.
i’m allowed to have a thought, and it really doesn’t have to agree with yours.
i believe there are levels of evil and stupidity, and they’re measurable.
read obama’s speeches, and determine where you got the idea that he was
some kind of progressive who would undo all bush’s crimes.
just wait until we have to pray and pledge fealty before we enter a federal buidling.
won’t get fooled again, indeed!

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I would be the first to advocate the US spend less on hegemony, and instead invest in exporting infrastructure to the third world. Indeed, I believe it is essential that the federal government create and extend credit to promote the export of capital goods and investment in infrastructure here at home. This will put millions to work and advance the real physical productivity of the economy.

The problem with solar is the inherent low energy flux density. Because of this physical reality, even with increasing efficiencies the capital investment per megawatt of capacity will always be high, relative to that required for fossil fuel or nuclear power. Solar energy is best utilized for the production of food and forests, this is much more efficient than converting it directly to electricity in solar cells.

Industrial processes require high energy flux density, and these are best delivered from fossil fuels and nuclear. Because the extent of resources depends on the technology which exploits them, it is a human imperative to continually develop higher density energy technologies which expand the amount of resources available to a nation.

I agree that we should not build nuclear power plants of the same design as used in Fukushima. But there are alternative nuclear designs that are inherently much safer, such as the pebble bed reactor. The thorium fuel cycle which India is pursuing will reduce the volumes of radioactive waste products by orders of magnitude compared to uranium fueled plants. And ultimately, we must harness the power of nuclear fusion if the human race is to survive.

I agree that third world countries should not repeat the mistakes of the west, and these sovereign nations must make their own decisions to advance the general welfare of their peoples.

From a scientific perspective, there is a lawful relationship between standard of living, real physical production of food and economic goods, capital investment per capita, and the flux density of an economy’s energy sources. Indeed, it is only through continual advance of technology that we can overcome the growing scarcity of economic resources to support the people of the world.

WORD bro.

It’s SO SILLY to think that 7,000,000,000 people combusting wood, coal, natural gas, and petroleum in their cars, trucks, furnaces and power plants on every continent, every night and day to the tune of 30,000,000 tonnes CO2/year would have an effect on the world.

That’s CRAZY talk./s

From a non-scientific, tried and true, evolutionary and totally logical perspective, if you piss in the well, you can’t drink the water.

Man-made?
Come now folks.
Isn’t it more rational to believe in a magical “man” in the sky who will save us all?

On a side note, can anyone tell me how to display a picture in a diary post. Any help appreciated.

Yep, religion and science are two different things.

To compare the two is apples and oranges.

I have always thought that rightwing religious folks who have the need to somehow justify their faith in terms of science (to “scientifically prove” their religion) are people who are profoundly lacking in faith.

Or lacking critical thinking? See above….

Addendum:

Feel free to test that theory, but do it with your own waste in your own well, not everybody else’s.

I think Obama a disaster, and apologize for misreading your agreemnet with that sentiment, if such indeed it is, alpaca. I think Obama has furthered the assault on the rule of law, the destruction of civil society and of the environment, begun by “W”.

And, I do think my juxtapostions @ 164 correct, morally and in fact.

Do you?

I think we face a neofeudal future embraced quite happily by Mr. Osterity.

What do you think.

Yu are both entitled and welcome to your thoughts, I should only appreciate it were you to consider sharing some or a few of them here, in some depth, alpaca.

Again, I apologize for thinking you trollish.

DW

A new PPL poll will be released tomorrow that shows Perry with a double digit lead over Romney nationwide. After Perry wins Iowa and South Carolina, he will go on to win Florida and be unstoppable.

Global warming notwithstanding…..it’s pretty damn hot down here in Texas.

That DOES seem like a lot of CO2. OTOH I drive a 4 cyl Nissan and don’t use any coal. :-)

But I certainly get your point.

I am impressed with your knowledge and grasp tpinlb., and especially your mention of law, for that I consider to be the weakest link to a sustainable human future.

I would suggest that a world-wide inventory of “resources” would be a most wise thing to consider, but realizing at the same time, that the “interests “of the exploiting classes, both of resources and of other human beings are NOT the interests of the many, and until and unless we solve the problem of unfettered greed and of power perceived essentally as brute destruction, then such notions as we both obviously embrace stand little chance of becoming rational and reasonable human reality.

If we liberate ourselves and each other as free human beings, then it is more than likely that the capacities of thought and imagination possessed by our species will be more than enough to solve any real problems and genuine needs which might arise or befall us.

I hope that you might become a regular commenter here, at FDL, as your perspectives would be a most welcome addtion to the insights and capacities already found here.

DW

Don’t talk like that. It just upsets everybody.

You mean we need more smart people and fewer dumb ones.

Boy, that could etch that in stone and hang it over the entrance to the capitol building.

carguy Why? Too much reality.

Well we gots what we gots, carguy308.

I think it would be wise of all of us, who are neither greedy nor desirous of “power”, to NOT allow the really “sick” ones, the sociopathic and worse, to control or try to control and manipulate the rest of us. That, alone, would make the world a better, happier, and safer place.

BTW, have wondered about the “308″ in your handle, carguy. Curiosity is.

Is it random, deliberate, or doth it have “automotive” or other meaning?

DW

Possibly, for some, contemplating such a possibility is “too much” … actually, such an “outcome” would merely speed the “process” of this nation’s “exceptional” insanity revealing itself so completely that everyone will, rather quickly, and beyond a reasonable doubt, become “educated” and aware of how much “fun” the planned “dark ages” of the neofeudal set really would be.

Basically, we can drive off a short cliff, time after painful time, until we get really weary or dead of it or we can go whole hog and drive off a really BIG cliff, right away and get “there” sooner. “There” being the collapse of viable, human civil society.

Either way, the current political and economic jig is up, and if there are enough pieces left, and enough real human beings, then we get, or don’t get, the opportunity to build civil society anew.

What do you think, imagine, or intuit, carleton?

DW

thanks for semi-doubting whether i’m a troll-really not a bad or delusional person.
that being said, i would rather have kagan on the sc than scalia, et al of the fascisti.
if perry or bach or romney get in citizen’s united will look like a walk in the fresh air.
if mccain had won, i believe we would be fighting wars on four or five fronts.
iran, egypt (for mubarek), libya, etc.
i despise obama for his cowardice (very dem), but i would like to pass from this earth without
stomach cancer from watching them being sworn into office.
other than an armed revolution, i really don’t see any meaningful changes on the horizon.

It takes to long to recover from the hard turns to the right. More right wing judges will be chosen that will be in place for a long time, and I am not just talking about the Supreme Court. Maybe we would get sick of the changes that Perry would bring but maybe the majority would not. It is too risky. Better to stick with Obama and start organizing for 2016.

I support non-violent resistance, as conscience.

Kagan, is Sunstein-lite, whom I well imagine Obama will also place on SCOTUS before he is done with us …

The rule of law was effectively made moribund with Bush v. Gore and further depradations have rendered it certainly quite dead.

Obama, or “Osterity” as many here have nick-named him, will be permitted to destroy even more of civil society than Perry would, for Perry, at least would likely meet SOME resistance from ostensible Demorats, who specifically, I admit to being hard-pressed to imagine. I suggest we begin now, to develop compelling narratives that would allow others, not merely to envision but also, to “feel” what a better, more sane and humane world would be like.

I hope that you, alpaca, also might join us. at FDL, as I sense that you are feeling somewhat lonely and bereft of much hope. The community here is not always quite so bristlely as my “welcome” might seem to suggest. and I hope that you might have patience sufficient to visit again and possibly join us whenever you might?

I appreciate your time and your thoughts, alpaca, truly.

DW

Fortunately, carleton, Obama has been quite remiss with appointment to the federal bench – as bmaz, over at Empty Wheel’s site doth often lament. My response to alpaca @199 conveys my concerns about the pusillanimous fabulist in chief whom I consider would be permitted far more destruction than ANY rethuglican so far “announced”.

I appreciate your thoughtful response, carleton and hope to “see” you often on these threads.

DW

They certainly lack the critical thinking skills to differentiate between faith and reason.

Isn’t that the point. People stick with one party or the other through faith. Even when the faith is betrayed, they continue to stick with that party. People ignore what their senses tell them. Ignore Macro Economic theory, the fact that war cannot win you friends, evolution, etc. It’s all the same conditioned Faith, learned from childhood. May the great (fill in your own deity) save us.

Cheese and crackers got all muddy!!! … you mean blankety-blank is gonna save us … afterall?

Whocouldamagine?

skepticdog you done restored mah fates.

Howlalouya? They’s sum says tain’t a good place to be in an earthquake or a himacane but I’m agnostic ’bout the tissue.

Warz purty ridickulous I’d say withall the racket!

DW