… My question for Salam is this: how racially insensitive does one have to be to prefer an America with segregation because he or she saw other advantages to 1950s society? What possibly could outweigh the disgusting racial status quo of the 1950s (I am leaving out the status of women and gays)? To wish for a return to that America, I would argue, one has to be so racially insensitive that bigoted seems like an apt descriptor. The alternative answer, of course, is complete solipsism.
There’s a difference between Forrest Gump and what actually happened. The world has always been complicated. The world has always been big. Pace Tom Friedman, but the world has always been flat. The only thing that was small and simple was our own experience, and what people are really wishing for is not that the world become simple again, but that they become ignorant of its complexity.
I write about history for a living, and in order to do that I had to come to terms with one thing: We don’t remember the war. We remember the war in a way that makes it possible for us to survive the next one. We remember the way things were in order to make sense of the way things are now, and our memories cheat us and comfort us, but they’re not documentary. If they were, they’d be flashbacks.
You don’t ever want the way things were. You want YOU as you were, in a time when you imagined you were better, more easily heroic, more virtuous, stronger. And what I want to take these people aside and tell them is, it’s pretty much as simple as getting up one morning and deciding not to suck so much as a human being, not resent so much all the imagined slights of somebody speaking Spanish in a store or the black president or whatever, not worry so much all the goddamn time that everything’s going to hell. Everything’s always been going to hell. The day after we crawled out of the mud somebody started a club about how the mud was better and we should never have left.
This is the world. You have to live in it. It gets a lot easier when you stop fighting it so hard in the name of returning to something you only think you saw one time.
x-posted to First Draft
A.



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Allison, I think you are correct. The complexity is what people don’t realize they are upset about. If they would think for a moment they would know that it’s not possible to go back but it also is not desirable. Things were not great “back in the old days.”
The conservatives dream of a world without entitlements like SS and Medicare burdening the rich they forget the old used to live in poverty in much greater numbers than now.
They liked that wealth made them better than other people and they did not have to compete in college with kids who were not getting Gentlemen’s C’s.
They liked it when women had very little chance to make a decent living so of course divorce was much lower back then women could not afford to leave.
They remember the good days the Clinton tech boom, the Roaring 20′s the Old South, they forget the that when ever markets were unregulated bubbles would eventually pop and lead to ruin for many of the rich.
They forget that without SS and Medicare to steal from the rich would be facing a popped bubble again.
These are standard issue golden age fantasies, most generally fed by ignorance of the reality of the period longed for. I remember segregation, marginalization of women, and rabidly macho heteronormativity as I lived during that period. I do not miss it. There are a few things I would like to see return, however. High top marginal tax rates and low income inequality, a strong union movement, a booming economy, a commitment to the common good and building a world class infrastructure, and the sense of optimism that the world was going to be better tomorrow than it is today.
TURNPKIKE’S CLOSED!!!!!
BRUUUUUUUUUUUCE!!!!
Forrest Gump was a movie. Fiction. I figured out the difference a while ago. ‘Course, I’m almost 60. But, there’s a lot of mature smart people here who have it figured out as well. Maybe some need to be hit over the head with a hammer. But, prolly not most.
Still, thanks for the advice. Got it.
Sorry for sounding defensive, but, hey. That’s my world.
TURNPIKE’S CLOSED!!!!
Middle Class and Poor GOPers got all angry because the government used their money to help people but now that the Tea Baggers with help from an always ready to surrender Obama have now stolen their SS and Medicare I hope their eyes will open up.
I think we are reaching a tipping point.
Given how many months it took for the Tea baggers after the election to reach their new record low in the polls I don’t expect that the Tea Bagger or Obama’s slide in the polls has reached its peak yet.
Whene are we gonna write about a war in a way where we can maybe stop the next one from happening? have we ever done that?
This is good, Alison.
Pace Tom Friedman, but the world has always been flat. The only thing that was small and simple was our own experience, and what people are really wishing for is not that the world become simple again, but that they become ignorant of its complexity.
Aloha, A…! Basically, all politics are indeed local…! ;-)
I think cutting SS and Medicare was the hammer we were looking for it will just take 6-9 months for the implications to sink in not everyone is as aware as us political junkies are but if anything the GOP’s appeal to selfish people without empathy should hurt them now.
Selfish people don’t care who steals from them and will get mad as they deal with their brainwashing when they plan for their retirement.
That leaves the GOP/Obama with the Chumps the Marks as their support.
Read some of Ambrose Bierce’s war fiction or Stephen Crane and Dalton Trumbo; “Johnny Got His Gun.” There is also a sizable body of anti-war war fiction and poetry in England, mostly from WW I
Selfish people don’t care who steals from them
I disagree.
One thing that would stop the US from dashing around getting into war is the draft – which I am not in favor of, by the way.
If they don’t care then they are chumps in my book:) Call me selfish but I don’t care who steals from me friends, family my own former political party I get pissed:)
Well stated, Allison. A therapist (also a minister) once said to my daughter and me after my son/her brother died, “God’s out to kill us all!” To our credit, we understood and laughed out loud and long. WE have one time to live well and purposefully.
I am not a fan of the draft (my number was 3), but if we are going to fight wars, the pain should be shared equally. I cannot think of any other way than a draft (without all the class biased exemptions in the last version)
I wonder sometimes if these critics of social progress realize that the people they love to hate so much are actually people. When you stop focusing on the spanish so much and go up to them to start a conversation, you might be surprised at how empathetic and nice they are, and how much they contribute an alternative understanding where meanwhile everyone else is so focused on something else and too often pay lip service where it is not desired or even required. When your life turns to darkness I suppose it is easy to accept this light from some unexpected source. Personally I would rather my light not be an embraced illusion of authority. I chose to not judge people and I found that there was a certain light to be had and embraced that brought a lot of comfort in a world full of pain, and I am glad for that. I am not sure if I would still be alive today without that. That is the source of my judgment but unfortunately even if I say it like this I truly do not believe they will listen. Hopefully I am wrong but I don’t think I am.
You don’t care or you get pissed. Which one?
I’m not in the mood to fight, so I’ll just take off, but you’re not making sense to me.
Actually a limited draft every member of Congress, the WH every millionaire who has draft age kids would have their kids drafted and sent in a special immediate response unit to be the first to fight in any war.
Those kids with problems who could not go to the front could be near the front cooking for the front line troops fixing equipment etc.
Imagine how many wars would be avoided if everytime America went to war the rich and powerful knew their kids would be the first in and the last to leave.
thanks.
I get pissed and I’m not looking to fight Demi I wanted to try and convince you that I think times are changing and even the most die hard GOPers and Obamabots except the Chumps I think will switch sides and join us.
I know that you are a peaceful man, Things. Have a great evening.
Talk to you later.
You’re right, Dr. D…! The Draft had tempered the Elite’s ardor for war…! It was a much more level playing field…!
Instead of Rummy saying when solders don’t have enough bullet proof vests and armored humvees we fight a war with the army we have if the rich and powerful kids were the first in the last to leave the Army I am quite sure would not want for anything.
I am damm sure we would not be fighting a 10 year war ever again.
The only lesson that the powers that be learned from Vietnam was that the draft mobilized a more widespread opposition to the war more than any other factor. They have not made that mistake since.
never heard that one. like that. reminds me of a story…. friend of mine lost a young daughter and asked a jesuit who was very close to our class in high school– an unofficial counselor to us all– about whether there is anything for her after death. he said “Well, that’s the promise. ” guy had to laugh, as you did and we all did when he related the story. he was looking for an unequivocal yes but should have known from high school to ever expect a straight answer from this guy. laughter truly is the best medicine and a great comfort.
The 1950s were not charming. The 1960s were pretty exciting. After that I was married and too numb to care. Did like disco, though. My dad, age 93, makes fun of me for wanting the Eisenhower era back. Well, yeah, it really did seem less complicated then!
When I applied to med school in 1952 I was told they would let me know if any slots were left after they had interviewed all the males. Must have been a bad for males as I got in. 1-3% of the classes were female.
I saw the medical care old people, even those of some means, got. It was none. They were simply “too old” for surgery or any meaningful treatment.
It was still segregated in Georgia when I came to Grady. There were a few black nurses, who could only attend African Americans, but they could not be called Miss or Mrs. etc. I saw black women sterilized without their understanding of what that meant.. Though I have to say by the time I was there we house officers and nursing tried pretty hard to provide all the best care a County taxpayer budget would allow our hospital. We hated cold nights because it meant a “dead baby” morning. We hated hot summer because it meant sudden death from the “flux.”
Sure I’d love to go back. But only with the tools and the money we have now — and especially the African Americans allowed to go to good schools and even vote.
But how shall we deal with those who liked it just fine and still mouth the words Tom Coburn dog whistled the other day — African Americans just drain us superior white folks in order to go to school and then want to make laws that support them to be lazy and promiscuous. Gawd what evil still possesses so many like him!!
How’s that for a rant.? Next show the next time that question is asked.
My pop was a die hard Republican. We had many arguments over dinner when I went to college in 1970.
He served on a committee that was looking into why the local draft board was not granting any CO applications. He was a fair man.
And the real answer is that it doesn’t matter/we’ll never know til we know. It is here and now that matters. One of my dear friends died last week after a second round of cancer, and I am in awe of how she and her family handled this throughout. A life well lived is something to behold. Integrity is something to be honored. Truth is ‘heavenly.’ Yep.
My father was a life long Republican and a WWII vet who solidly backed my efforts to avoid the draft.
Wow, TalkingStick…! Mahalo for that great rant…! *g*
It’s beauty
Warning: disturbing images.
Nothing much has changed. We never learn.
indeed.
so much lost potential through the ages :(
Our pops probably would have gotten along very well.
Mine served as anti-aircraft in the Philippines.
When the army or whatever came to my high school to tell us why joining would be good, I brought home the literature. Jimmy had a fit! He said, you throw that trash away right now. You’re going to college!
(I miss him every day of my life, but I still talk to him every day, too.)
TalkingStick, you rock! I wanted to go to law school in the late 60′s, but I wasn’t the daughter of a judge or prominent attorney. So I became a teacher. I became a lawyer at 54. I made sure my daughters got to be what they wanted to be. One a Ph.D, the other an MBA. Lots of things I didn’t do right, but I did do that right.
A lot of it is, I think, people wishing for the world to be the way they thought it was when they were young. That it wasn’t that way, ever, doesn’t matter to them.
Mahalo to you Tuttle. My memory trunk is full of material. Enough to keep me from wishing for the “good old days.” Although my joints were a lot better then.
There is certainly some of that, but a lot of the nostalgia for the 50s among conservatives is by people who were not even born then. It really is a longing for the restoration of white male privilege.
Good for you and your guts!
You wouldn’t believe how many of my old lady peers have similar stories and sadly some whose parents wouldn’t let them even try.. I have one friend who was the first woman accepted in architecture at a prominent University. Her father sent her to a girls’ school in Missouri. I do have many things to be grateful for from that era, my parents and some enlightened mentors.
OT
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Thomas Friedman might want to reconsider his economic advice which Obama has been treating as Gospel.
No P/E ratio on his wife’s real estate company which does commercial real estate mostly shopping malls suggests that Tom’s advice may bankrupt him.
I do not understand why the share price is so high with negative net profits.
Navy, Marines, Army Air Force?
Tom’s next book the World is flat and so is my Wallet:)
wow.
Um, I think it’s still here. But, what do I know?
Really taking off this time.
G’night, Dick and all.
(PS, how come Allison doesn’t actually host her posts? Just being a nosy bitch, me.)
One other thing, and then I’ll drop back: I grew up from 7th through high school in Texas…after coming from California. I just never fit in. I’m the only one I know from my high school who bothered to drive out into the country to see what the “separate but equal” black high school was like. 1962. I was sickened. Black kids (children of live-in maids in my suburb) were bussed to a high school that was …….I don’t have words. Out there; bleak; limited; appallingly ugly; limited; not green anywhere; just sad. I’m sick just remembering how I felt when I saw the reality of what the South was really all about. I’m still ashamed that I didn’t do more to fuck with the system.
I’m grateful my eldest Daughter is well down the path for her Phd in Psychiatry, She plans to do the Medical School route too…! However, I still have two more that need much more motivation, to be just like their Big Sis…! ;-)
It is simply mind boggling that anyone would claim society was so well ordered then. It was ordered all right. Just right for the white guys with money.
I recall it all. The military in the 50s. I recall what a struggle it was to achieve some equality. Injustice is still rampant throughout the world at so many levels. Tribalism in Africa deprive millions of UN refugee aid. Asian sex trade. Muslim women subjugation to men. So to achieve human and animal rights we have to always struggle. That means there is and will be suffering. Hopefully I will not be the cause of suffering. Those who cause suffering have a larger burden. The sufferers have the worst burden. We have to be strong and smart. Overcoming is 24/7. And as Dearie says there is only the present moment.
And yes a good rant it is.
Army. I’ve got a great photo of him in his uniform on my desk. Him and his mom. He rarely talked about his experiences in the war, except for the shenanigans he got into. He was something else.
Warning: disturbing images.
Nothing much has changed. We never learn.
That should be the sign on the Bush Presidential Library
It lingers, but in much diminished form and they want it full strength. Sleep well.
I used to drink mountain-cold water from a local spring I wouldn’t let touch my toes now, and I remember when it didn’t matter who smoked tobacco or where. Did I imagine penny postcards and Steak Tartar?
Honey, you were a kid. Give yourself a break. :)
Crap I thought I copied the link trying again
http://www.bgladd.com/War_President/
And, it depends on where one is. You’re right.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz to you when it comes.
Really. I mean it. I’ve got a new book.
Ta Ta.
I still plan to ‘deposit’ a copy of ‘My Pet Goat’ at Shrub’s Shrine at SMU…! ;-)
Time for me to toddle off. Semester starts next week and I am easing back into the whole work thing. Take care all.
Sorry for the graphic-ness. It’s necessary.
Once the passion strikes, it never lets go.
It is always so wonderful when the get old enough that you see how they “turned out.” I hate to see good minds appear to be wasted by some of the bright ones, but really I feel most successful for them just being decent.
i think my dad would have liked to be at that table, too. Lifelong Dem, WWII vet, gave up his deferment (defense plant). Had 2 draft age brothers. Told them he’d give him the money to go to Canada if they wanted but couldn’t promise them much after that. Never came to that. Was a HUGE Hubert Humphrey guy but he hated Nixon with such a passion since the 50′s so 1968 was an easy call. 1972 he was out front for McGovern and worked the campaign when he could. They taught us so much by example, didn’t they? I hope I’m doing the same.
I know that I did what I could get away with. I did what I could. But I also learned a lot about TRUTH. Just as you are teaching your son, I’m trying to teach my daughters and grandkids to be real. And there is lots of joy in that!
That fuck.
http://www.bgladd.com/The_Disgracer_in_Chief.jpg
Night, Dem. Fair question. BHitch? Never. Take care.
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Funny how America’s debt gets downgraded in a bad economy but Tom’s wife’s company dependent on consumer Mall Spending is a hold by stock analysts how can America’s bad economy rate a down grade but an American company dependent on consumer spending and real estate prices be a hold?
Pleasant dreams, Dr. D…!
Yes. We gotta keep ranting. And realize what little we have so far achieved is still so tenuous that much of it is held on the memories of a few old folks who have trouble knowing what they went to the refrigerator for. :-)
dumb question but won’t be the first time…. why do mthjose guys have different color jackets? red, green, purple, blue? like a spectrum or something.
good night doc!
or the store. went today. forgot why. oh well, i needed detergent, anyway.
Tut I met a woman today that is a Doctor of Psychiatry. She has 6 children. The para sails and is engaged to be married to a fine fellow who has a daughter on the Duke rowing team. They are backing a new health food restaurant.
Another young women from MIT came down with her boyfriend for the weekend. They are in the Doctoral program in aerodynamics at Cal Tech. They saw my rowing cap and chatted a bit. It is wonderful all the bright minds..they get a stipend from US Gov of $2k. Pretty exciting stuff.
LOL
:)
a lot of men were like that — wouldn’t let it show, a friend’s father wouldn’t take leave because he knew he wouldn’t go back – and he was newly married. After the war, he never much talked about the horrors he experienced.
The Daily Show’s John Oliver did a piece about this that was near genius:
Yes and Jane Hamsher is doing great activism getting people in front of the Whitehouse. I remember Odetta in Denver when we all lit candles and sang peace songs. So many inspiring people in the 60s and 70s. Many people need to overcome themselves.
The refrig thing is pretty funny. And thank you for speaking up here.
well, me too. it’s late back east and i have to get up early. been a good night at The Lake. Interesting stuff. Interesting peoples as always. See yuz around.
Allison, I don’t know if you ever read responses to what you posted here, but this was a good post……and I’ll bet you would get a rousing response if you ever do have time to comment and respond to your readers. Well written and provocative.
I went to the hardware store but forgot my wallet. They were nice and put the stuff in a bag for tomorrow. G)
Hey you BFL,
Each color tells the crew what job they are responsible for — they can swiftly tell what each person knows.
my uncle was a POW and we all wanted to hear stories. every time he would tell us about having cockroach races. that was it.every time. only POW story he would ever tell. people would take a cue and just stop asking. most people anyway.
…is still so tenuous that much of it is held on the memories of a few old folks…
As a Historian and a FireBagger, I appreciate the ‘memories’…! *g*
Great video. Thanks.
Gotta go to bed. Nite.
thank you. see, you DO learn something every day. I thought maybe it was becausue Bush was such a fucking clown, it was appropriate to dress in all different bright colors.
wasn’t it though. again, great rant. would love to hear more if you ever feel like ranting. if not, no problem. night.
Hey! My brother was a Navy Chief for 14 years — he was in “fire control” and I thought that he was a fireman!
that was nice. Know what I went to Publix for. Money. I needed a $5 bill so i was going to buy my detergent and then get 5 back at the cxheckout. only reason I went. Got the detergent but no money. went back and gota 79 cent package of cookies AND the $5.
did he wear red?
I lived for 2 and worked for many years within 3 blocks of the Ebenezer. They were my neighbors and I was nurtured by many. — even when I didn’t deserve it. Didn’t have a lot of time for political demonstrations but was inspired and transformed for life as I knew many who were working.
Now I have to really sign off..
Thanks tuttle :-)
Yes, there was a time I want the world to go back to. Yes, I want to go back to that time because of what I was then. Yes, I only saw it once.
The time I’m referring to was Obama’s election. The person I was back then was filled with hope.
No, but I don’t know what color he wore. My then boyfriend wore green, which was not aviation fire control. I will ask him, and we should ask Margaret!
BB@73… They saw my rowing cap and chatted a bit… Ironically, several of my first cousins were on Canada’s ’76 Olympic sculling team, after a few ‘soakings’ I said ‘uncle’ to that noise…! ;-)
Getting close to the hundredth monkey, TCU? I’m not seeing it.
Pleasant dreams, M’dear…! ;-)
hiya CT — any news tonight?
Hey, CT, winding down…….how’s little baby’mama?
Hey! I love the Navy.
*heh* Stick around for LLN…! ;-)
Interesting thread.
*whew* It ain’t my thread…! ;-)
Pups… Charlie Rose is really interesting.
It ain’t your first thread, it ain’t your first rodeo………yeehaw!
Lucky 100!
CT — you’re sounding like Obama — just wait until my big speech in September!
Who’s he got on tonight? I get his show so late that I have to really care to stay up to see him. Hints, hints.
Chris Licht — producer for Morning Joe and such. But he survived a brain aneurisam.
Assclowns of the Week #88 is up. Get it while it’s hot.
you’re sounding like Obama…
Perish that thought, PPD…! ;-)
Mama Told Me Not to Come…
Did you ever read,My Stroke of Brilliance (or whatever) about the brain scientist who had the brain aneurism? Amazing. She spoke at TED.
Nice good genetics and very hard work. I’ll bet they are fun to be around.
No, sorry Dearie.
Those “Hope and Change” oars are dead in the water. That pole called “win the future” is to short to move the American Economy in the direction it needs to go . We who gave our dollars and dimes once upon a time just wants him to move the needle off “Its NOT Going To Happen” to “A Penny For Your Thoughts”
Sorry wrong post , was water my garden
Dr. Dick wrote:
“Read some of Ambrose Bierce’s war fiction or Stephen Crane and Dalton Trumbo; “Johnny Got His Gun.” There is also a sizable body of anti-war war fiction and poetry in England, mostly from WW I.”
I finally got around to reading Nonzero by Robert Wright. As the website suggests, looking at the “whole history of life on earth through the lenses of game theory can change your view of life.”
http://www.nonzero.org/
Those of us who came of age in the 50′s dont miss the repressions and opressions but what we do miss is the wonderful economy which allowed people with little education to become part of the middle class.
We miss our great auto,steel and textile industries which generated well paying jobs.We have become a society where the middle class is being crushed due to the simple fact that we are no longer a great industrial nation.Big deal,a few women can become doctors and lawyers but the masses of women who worked in the textile industry or rather their daughters now flip bugers,if they are lucky.Big deal,a few black men can rise to big jobs but what about the mases of black men who used to work in auto plants and steel mills? Their sons now have to sell drugs to survive.
For the elitists with great educations,its a wonderful world. For the masses,its a disaster.