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I keep telling people that the Secessionist is a lousy campaigner who will get exposed quickly in a national election, and it didn’t take him long to prove it.
Q: In Fed Up!, you criticize the progressive era and the changes it produced: the 16th and 17th Amendments, Social Security, Medicare, and so on. I understand being against these things in principle—of longing for a world in which they never existed. But now that they’re part of the fabric of our society, do you think we should actually do away with them?
Perry: I think every program needs to stand the sunshine of righteous scrutiny. Whether it’s Social Security, whether it’s Medicaid, whether it’s Medicare. You’ve got $115 trillion worth of unfunded liability in those three. They’re bankrupt. They’re a Ponzi scheme.
We have to be courageous as a country and stand up and admit that we have a Social Security program that is bankrupt, that is a Ponzi scheme, that Medicare and Medicaid collective had $106 trillion worth of liability that is unfunded, and that we need to deal with it and quit passing it on to the next Congress and the next generation.
Ponzi schemes are illegal, obviously.
The Secessionist says crazy shit like this in Texas all the time, and can get away with it. And while it’s true this kind of wingnutty talk will endear him to the Teabirchers, good luck winning the presidency calling America’s favorite social programs criminal conspiracies.
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A Ponzi scheme is where you take money from one party with the promise that you will return a larger sum in the future. Instead, the money is diverted to someone else who contributed in the past. It breaks down when there are not enough new people coming into the system to support the outbound payments.
While we may not like it, that is quite close to the description of social security. Current contributors pay for retirees.
The all-out war on New Deal/Great Society programs is in full swing. Democratic Party whores will reinforce the current offensive to insure victory!
Hail Big Brother!
Yo BT & Firepups:
Looks like Perry and his Goodhair might be on their way. This means I’ve gotta get even more popcorn. Damn!
Apologies if this piece has already been posted.
Ponzi schemes for Govt are legal.
Revenues to pay SS today, come from the recipients of tomorrow.
Treasury bonds will never be paid off, they’ll just accumulate in number.
How do those differ from the Madoff scam? They all rely on the “greater fool” principle. Like real estate.
I see where you made your critical mistake! You assumed that people would compare statements by beloved Republicans against reality and that reality would be the standard. Ah-hahahahaha! Shirley you understand that when Rick Perry says something like this, it immediately creates a new reality. And while you’re studying that reality — incredulously, as you will — he’ll say something ludicrous again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. Most folks in this great land of ours, conditioned by years of Coke ads and Spongebob brainwashing, are happy to accept any claim from a TV figure with good hair. Reality don’t enter into it. Reality is whatever I believe, and I believe whatever the right sort of talking head tells me to believe.
Nice reichwing talking point. What’s it like bein’ a parrot? Ever think for yourself?
Perry’s sticking with it; calls Social Security and Medicare unconstitutional:
Mr. Toad, I fear there is entirely too much truth in what you have written.
That’s true, and but as the demographics shift to more retirees and fewer contributors, the SSA has a fund of $2.6 TRILLION dollars which will pay current benefits for 25 years and 80% of benefits for 40 years after that.
The current cap on contributions, about $107,000, was set in 1983 to include 90% of income earners. If the cap were raised to reflect today’s 90% of earners (about $180,000)and adjusted periodically, problem solved. This is not a Ponzi scheme unless zealots decrease benefits, raise the retirement age, means-test benefits, etc.
Pretty sure that’s the “Mission Statement” for right-wing media…
Yo Dragon: I’m thinking we could get a buncha Firepups to go in on popcorn…get a big-time quantity price break. At the current rate of right-wing metastasis, the popcorn budget could bankrupt me…
Perry sounds dumber than Bush. Is that possible?
Perhaps the Perry thinks general welfare means using tax revenues to pay the generals who provide for the common defense. Since so many tasks have been outsourced from the military to defense contractors, the modern equivalent would be giving tax dollars to Blackwater.
I keep trying to figure out why Perry creeps me out. I can hardly stand to look at him.
Why does nobody seem to be talking seriously about raising the income cap on SS? (That’s a rhetorical question…)
Twice as dumb, and immeasurably more fanatical. So yup, I’m afraid it might be possible.
But there’s the Goodhair, and the pricey suits, so what’s the problem?
He is definitely much more radical. Did you see Rachel’s rundown on the sponsors of his prayer thingy, and THEIR statements?
There is no trust fund. Any shortfall from payroll taxes is paid from General Revenues (income taxes).
It doesn’t matter if the money from the General Fund is called “interest”, “principal”, “taxes on benefits”, or anything else. it all comes from taxes paid today or money borrowed today.
Say it with me… there is no trust fund.
Um…Because he’s clinically insane?
Didn’t see it – read about it. The usual god botherers.
WHAT IS A PONZI SCHEME?
Ponzi schemes tend to collapse when it becomes difficult to recruit new investors or when a large number of investors ask to cash out.
…as in when idiots like GWB, Governor Goodhair, and other assorted a-holes including many Dems angle for privatization or dismantling…and dupe the sheeple into thinking it’s a good idea.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits. -Einstein.
Boxturtle (never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups – Murphy the Lawgiver)
When it gets down to brass tacks popcorn is pretty bland. I’d rather have fresh veggies and some nice guacamole, spicy or not, depending on one’s taste. mmmmm, freshly sliced carrot sticks, mmm
I think that was meant as snark, Rovian allusions to creating realities and all.
But, I could be wrong. It’s getting hard to tell around here lately.
Perry is correct. What has happened to Social Security and to Medicare IS a Ponzi scheme.
That’s the thing that gives reich-wing conservatives like Perry so much credibility. They take half of the truth and then twist it 6 degrees to Sunday.
Social Security and Medicare are currently Ponzi schemes. HOWEVER, the part that Perry and other reich-wingers AND corporate centrist Democrats and Blue Dog Democrats leave off is WHY Social Security and Medicare are currently Ponzi schemes. They were not designed to be so and 20 years ago Congress passed legislation to ensure that baby boomers would be covered.
The REASON that the ones currently paying into Social Security are paying for the premiums of those who are collecting is because our elected officials have stolen the money from the social security and medicare coffers to fund their own war mongering projects for Wall Street.
THAT MONEY SHOULD BE THERE.
The solution is not to call the people who have paid into Social Security and Medicare for years “free-loaders” The solution is to call crooks like Perry and other government officials CROOKS and force them to tax the rich who have made profits from this theft.
THAT is the solution. Instead, as long as we have 44% of our Congress who are millionaires who profit from this theft, we will have elected officials who blame those who can least afford it and berate them as being free-loaders when in fact, it is people like Rick Perry, Barack Obama, Michel Bachmann, etc. who are the real free loaders and thieves.
AND AS FOR RICK PERRY: He is no stranger to dipping into and stealing from the entitlement funds of working people. HIs Texas Enterprise fund took over $600 million from the unemployment funds of working Texas and gave it to corporations like Bank of America to create jobs. Few of the corporations who received this money every lived up to their end of the contract for creating jobs.
Definitely amped up with some fresh jalapenos. I like my food to bite back…
Perry creeps you out because you’re a good judge of character.
Nobody is talking about the SS limit because it would annoy their political contributors.
Boxturtle (Obama will need every bit of that projected $1B to overcome his record)
This is some pretty scary shit…..but not enough to make me vote for Obama. Obama is weak and growing increasingly unpopular. Americans are notoriously prone to amnesia. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss this nut and his millions. He’s never lost an election.
Social Security is not an investment program and there is no presumption of profit or anything remotely business related. Playing 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon in order to provide arguments against the program really doesn’t cut it here.
So then is every form of private insurance a ponzi scheme? Because i certainly haven’t received what I’ve paid in and most likely never will. So every private insurance company is breaking the law?
OK, Southern Dragon, after reading this comment, I guess it wasn’t snark: Say it with me… there is no trust fund.
The Trust Fund consists of Treasury Bonds that are as sound as any other T-Bill. The government can no more default on this obligation than it can with individual investors or China.
“It’s just pieces of paper.” and “They’re just I.O.U.s” have been right-wing talking points for years.
Social Security is a public retirement investment security program. It is functionally very different from a Ponzi scheme. (This talking point reminds me of the conservative talking point about Keynesian economics–the water cup and river analogy–it makes the dim feel clever, but makes them look even dimmer to the informed.)The end of the Ponzi scheme is to enrich the person heading the scheme at the expense of the group, i.e. it’s closer to the reverse of the goal of progressive policy than it is to progressive policy. The end of an insurance investment plan is to ensure long-term security of the entire group at the short-term loss of the individual investor. It’s the smae concept that guides private insurance companies, which right-wingers oddly never badmouth. If Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, then every private insurance company is just a horrifically inefficient Ponzi scheme.
Hand our legislaturds a “simple fix” for a problem and they’ll discard it every time.
http://girloutofdixie.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/300_134743.jpg
thanx you dumbass Perry
50% of the country uses some form of these programs
bye,bye
WTF is “righteous scrutiny”???
The commenter is a reichwinger. Sez the same kinda shit every day.
Along with the wars, tax breaks for the rich and corporations, and everything else the government pays for.
Good question. They both lived in the Texas governor’s mansion which was burned and it under reconstruction. But, radon gas, mercury vapor, carbon monoxide? Who knows what might have been present.
OTOH, we’ve had quite a few crazy governors down here. Kind of a tradition.
Dead wrong. There is a fund, and there is a surplus THIS YEAR:
Don’t parrot right wing talking points.
Three things:
This is a lie and such a huge one that even the capitalist, corporate media should call him on it.
What’s the unfunded liability for the Defense Department?
3. He reminds me of Moe from the Three Stooges.
SS is like buying an annuity over time. Happens in business all the time.
You must not know, he switched parties so as to accomplish that feat. When Texas went red, so did Perry.
wrong wrong wrong
waaaaay possible – gotta remember Rove’s statement on Bush – ‘there’s a guy I can make President’
Perry is Rove’s Bush 2.0 – all that undesirable Bush shite in a concentrate
just the hair,Moe was smarter,being a comedian is hard work
Troll alert
Back to work
Namaste
Seems we have appeals courts on both sides of the ACA mandate issue – so USSC review will be nearly automatic. A divided 2-1 panel of the 11th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in Atlanta found the law’s “individual mandate” section, requiring nearly all Americans to purchase health insurance by 2014 or face financial penalties — to be an improper exercise of federal authority. Chief Judge Dubina, “The individual mandate exceeds Congress’s enumerated commerce power and is unconstitutional. This economic mandate represents a wholly novel and potentially unbounded assertion of congressional authority: the ability to compel Americans to purchase an expensive health insurance product they have elected not to buy, and to make them re-purchase that insurance product every month for their entire lives.”
However while the mandate section was found to be unconstitutional, the entire law need not be set aside, per the Court.
Perry needs to revise his language away from Ponsi (a mathematical concept) and back to “Constitutional”.
just another amoral sociopath
thank you for taking care of these uniformed trolls.
saw that…great smackdown
you got mail
thank you for taking care of these uninformed trolls.
I did. And one guy said the Japanese economy was mired in doom BECAUSE the emperoro fornicated with the Sun Goddess. I’m not sure, however, if he was upset over the marital infidelity of just pagan sexual intercourse. I’ve also felt, “Any port in a storm”.
That’s not fair to Moe. You mean the hair thing, right?
I think Moe had better hair, personally.
one thing about the sociopaths,there is no moral compass to get in the way of a straight line to the money pot,at the end of the rainbow…beeline
Good piece about Goodhair on DN this morning.
Say it with me: “I’m parroting right-wing talking points and I don’t actually know what I’m talking about.”
The Social Security Trust Fund is in T-bills. The reason they’re T-bills, or as you like to denigrate them “IOUs,” is that we needed to borrow that money to make up for your GOP friends’ tax cuts. When the T-bills come due, we have to pay them back. That means more taxes on your rich friends. Which, as the Clinton presidency proved conclusively, leads to lower deficits, functional full employment and an unprecedented economic boom.
Every time a right-winger says “The SS Trust Fund is nothing but a pile of IOUs,” what they’re really saying is “The SS Trust Fund is nothing but a pile of IOUs from me, which I have no intention of paying back.” Why do they hate America?
You have no clue on the math that makes insurance work to provide security to the public – a clue – there are no savings accounts.
I’ll pass on teaching you insurance math – go to your library.
me too,this guy is smarmy as they come,he has toasted himself or hoisted himself,either way peeps will not take kindly to killing entitlements
Please mark my words: All of these crazies are only making it more likely we see something no one would have guessed even a few months ago:
jeb bush will waltz in, above the fray, and be the 2012 nominee running as the “smarter bush”!
I am not proclaiming this is a certainty, but its more likely than many would assume (and to some it will sound batsh!t crazy!)
The odds of this happening, however, increase each day the loons go at it. We are entering dangerous uncharted waters.
So there is no holder of bonds called China, and no holder of bonds called Social security – I closing my eyes – very tight – sorry – still not working.
Are you really this stupid?
olJebby has mucho skeletons in his closet
bb wrote:The odds of this happening, however, increase each day the loons go at it. We are entering dangerous uncharted waters.
———————-
Wouldn’t the founding fathers be sooo proud of us????
Disagree. Jebby not running…………………this time.
I posted for your review the 20 or so years the bonds were cashed in by Social Security in the past.
Guess you also can’t read.
Yes, there are pieces of paper with labels attaching them to SS. Now, where do you think the interest payments come from? The actual money that is? From income taxes of today, or borrowing today. There is no pot of dollar bills sitting somewhere politicians dip into. Every penny that isn’t covered by payroll taxes, comes from General Revenue.(income taxes)
As for Treasuries, when you present your piece of paper to Govt, you get another piece of paper in return. It could be a dollar bill or another bond. nothing useful, just another piece of paper. Treasuries will never be repaid.
Why is it no one is talking about the Republican’s theft of SS to fund two wars that have been funded off the books? If memory serves me correctly, Clinton raised the payroll tax specifically to make SS solvent for decades but it was siphoned off in to he general fund to cover the deficits by Bush 43. Didn’t hear anyone complaining then, why?
Even the Clinton’s Comptroller General at the time, has been a vocal critic of siphoning off the SS trust to cover the deficits. This is the greatest crime of our generation.
44% of Congress millionaires? I believe it to be higher (or most are cheats anyway.
Anyway, I tip my hat to you for bring up a salient point and if we were in a bar, I’d buy ya a drink.
His state is bankrupt, has the worst educational program, has huge poverty levels and terrible living standards..
Yea, ill listen to this guy..
Our educatonal system be #47. NOT the worst. We isn’;t broke. Just a little short until 2016.
Last night, Chris Hayes asserted that the Perry track record will come to haunt him on the campaign trail.
How distressing that there are those who want to return to the days before SS – senior poverty.
Privatize it? And Wall Street would already have destroyed it – once more senior poverty.
Gut it? Seniors are already barely making it. I mean, who the F thinks they’re living it up? Gutting it once more leads to senior poverty.
How can people act like this? Are they so inhumane, heartless, and soulless, they would want rampant senior poverty? Sadly the answer is yes.
How could we have let selfishness and greed become a virtue in this country. It will destroy us all. But first the seniors, and the weakest and most defenseless.
I think the GOP reads FDL steals our talking points and then uses them to attack stuff they don’t like never mind the facts don’t fit. They should get their own ideas and find causes they don’t have to lie about to support.
PLus. We got the cheapest housing int he country. The house I have cost me $169,000. If I sold it today, I could buy it baclk for just $126,000.
THERE
This is the new GOP front runner this is the best they can get?
Breaking Forbes headline:
“ObamaCare Ruled Unconstitutional”
Idiots.
GOP does not concern themselves with facts. Ask John Kyl.
Just proves he can slip into any snake skin to get elected and he has enough money and image makers to turn him into anything he wants to be. The American people will swallow a big damn lie quicker that a small one. I in no way meant to endorse Perry, for fuck’s sake.
Is there some kind of misunderstanding that I am a troll? I usually come here early in the morning and comment on Attaturk’s piece and that’s usually it. I assure you I am as blue and socialist as anyone here.
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/rick-perry/
Interesting truth-o-meter on Perry’s statements
I prefer information from the source
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html
“Social Security expenditures exceeded the program’s non-interest income in 2010 for the first time since 1983.”
2. Social Security has three revenue sources— Payroll contributions from employers and employees (83%), interest earned on social security’s U.s. Treasury bond assets (14%), and income taxes on the social security benefits paid by those with higher incomes (3%) [Figure 2].
Where do you think interest and income taxes come from? The same place, general revenues.
Once again, every penny that doesn’t come from payroll taxes is covered by general revenues. No matter what label you apply to the funds.
Perry can’t even carry his own state but he is the new GOP frontrunner?
I remember when nobody would think about running for President who could not carry his own state today I doubt any GOPer running for President now can carry their home state.
True
I think carguy is pretty new here so he might not know you…
Linky
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidwhelan/2011/08/12/appeals-court-obamacare-is-unconstitutional/
No one has stolen a penny of Social Security and not one penny of it has been used for anything but Social Security benefits and expenses. Any talk suggesting it has is nonsense at best and tea-drinker propaganda at worst.
So their non-interest income is 86% of their income, right? So they exceeded 86% of their income in payments. So?
Yes. It’s the fundie-crazy-goodhair-WHITE-MALE that they want. Let’s face it, Democratic voters often aren’t much better, but T-GOP voters tend to love pols who lie like a rug, create their own “reality,” and talk trash about so-called “welfare entitlements,” no matter what.
Just the other day some random woman in a store began LOUDLY vetching about the Wall St’s Toad’s Wild Ride, and yes, you guessed it!!! This total stranger LOUDLY blasting my eardrums blamed it solely and only on poor people on welfare, vetching all the way about “hard” SHE had worked & now POOR PEOPLE were stealing her money.
Guess we know who she listens to on Hate Radio and who she votes for.
Dumb as a rock; blaring out idiocy for all the world to hear…
Uh, no because Social Security does not meet one of your own tests for a “ponzi scheme” : “the promise that you will return a larger sum in the future.” Social Security makes no such claim and as a boomer I’ve paid in twice. Please inform me as to how that fits the definition of a ponzi scheme.
Yes, the money was taken from SS and dumped into General Revenues, starting with LBJ I believe. The premise of this post is that SS isn’t a Ponzi scheme, when it demonstrably is. Govt sucked up all the overage just like Madoff, and is now relying on future contributions to continue. Just like Madoff.
You can hope the IOU’s are honored, but always remember the Supreme Court has ruled nobody is legally entitled to SS.
Once again, every penny that doesn’t come from payroll taxes is covered by general revenues. No matter what label you apply to the funds.
Bottom Line:
If there was nothing in Social Security funds, there wouldn’t be anything to steal from it. There is money there because it hasn’t contributed one penny by law to the deficit.
The oligarchs are after it because it’s a big big source of cash.
The End.
Spot on!
Rick Perry did not invent that dishonest argument, but it’s worth noting that he’s repeating it.
Are you really that rude?
Yes, China and the Trust Fund hold paper promises. The difference is that China can sell theirs to a greater fool. In any event, that paper gets traded for another piece of paper.
Meanwhile, once again, every penny that doesn’t come from payroll taxes is covered by general revenues. No matter what label you apply to the funds. Or to put another way, continuation of SS benefits relies on future contributions, not anything in a vault somewhere.
IOUs are what guys give other guys when they can’t cover their losses in basement card games. US Treasuries are somewhat more substantial than that; so much so that investors are flocking to US Treasuries regardless of the threats of the tea drinkers to destroy the credit of the United States.
Right. And if the current level of general revenues doesn’t cover it, we raise taxes to, I duno, something higher than the lowest percentage of GDP in more than a half-century. Problem solved.
Exactly right. They’re sociopaths who see a jackpot of loot and salivate like a pack of wolves seeing a pig farm.
Ok. I’ll bite. Let’s just say that everything you wrote @90 is entirely accurate. Fine.
How, then, does having some politician, such as Rick Perry (albeit it could be *any* politician from either party; doesn’t matter these days), wank-on about how “Soc Sec is a Ponzi scheme” help in any way?
It seems that you & others are in agreement that 86% of Soc Sec funds come from employer/employee contributions. Whether or not Soc Sec has been siphoned off for other purposes – or – it’s still available in some format at around 86%….
Then what? Why is barking out that it’s a Ponzi Scheme of any help whatsoever? It’s just red meat thrown out to the base to gin them up & create a lot of fear.
IMO it’s yet another way to set the scene to rip off the middle & working classes who’ve worked hard all their lives and been contributing to Soc Sec (as I have) for many years.
IF there’s a “problem” with Soc Sec, then RAISE the FICA cap. Then the problem quickly is resolved.
I see NO politicians anywhere making any kind of *sensible* or sound suggestions for resolving what they’re all wanking about as a hugely giant problem.
I’m pretty fed up with ALL politicians, who are ALL bought off, esp Rick Perry, by the mega-rich.
Come up with some bona fide solutions or STFU is what I say to con-men like Perry.
Most all the comment talk is about the ponzi scheme bit, but what really jumps out at me is Blue Texan’s judgment that this guy can’t win. I’ll believe he’ll lose when it happens. Maybe it’s because I’ve always been wrong in the past about how bad Americans will let it get, but I will not underestimate the stupidity of the American voter for the umpteenth time.
So, the rest of it comes from general revenues (income taxes).
The point is that all SS benefits paid today, are funded with taxes paid today. Exactly like a Ponzi scheme.
And so… what does that mean? How is this enlightening or helpful? And what is the solution?
How large the sum is depends on your longevity. IIRC some people receive a lot more than they paid in, covering your objection.
Very nice summation Liz Berry @ 24
There is no money here, there, or anywhere. Congresses for decades have taken the excess SS contributions and put out pieces of paper to keep track of how much they took. Most of those people are dead and gone, and won’t be paying anything back.
All the benefits that aren’t covered by payroll taxes have to come from general revenues (income taxes). No matter what name you attach to it.
Doesn’t FDL utilize an anti-viral software program to keep this level of ignorance from infecting the comment section?
I didn’t say anythinig. You’re not referring to me are you?
And conversely, some who paid a lot into it die younger with no spouse or dependents, and get LESS than what they paid into it.
It’s a two-way street in this regard.
What would you have the SSA invest its surplus in? Enron?
Very true. Our debt is a safe haven because of mutual agreement. But in reality it will never be paid off. It will be accumulated ad infinitum. Or traded for another piece of paper.
I thnk old basball cards are pretty safe. Unopened Beatle records.
As they say revenue collections are down because business is bad. Think business will perk up in response to threats of higher taxes? The floggings will continue till attitudes improve?
@ RoyalOak: Been around about two weeks. Gettin’ to know everybody. Like it here. Have lots of free time at work.
I always rely on the economic advice of a Texas Aggie who barely passed Economics 101 with a “D”. Don’t you? Rick Perry is an unending fount of wizdumb, and he loves him some Jeebus.
Despersate times require despsraet measures.
More keyboard problems, sorry.
At least those are tangible, physical assets. Ever had a gander at the cost of some well “loved” Beatles’ albums??
Isn’t almost *everything* that goes on these days “pieces of paper”?? I’m not being facetious. Frankly, the way I see it (which admittedly is quite simplistic), is that nearly everything is a Ponzi Scheme these days, and I include in that: Wall St and a LOT of banking practices.
I reiterate: what’s the solution? This last question is sent out to the general audience, not just carguy…
Little Ricky Perry is rather amazing when you consider that he can still speak with all of the Koch in his mouth.
True enough, but that’s why he appeals (or will) to a significant enough segment of the population. I’m being factual here.
I’m the “comic relief” here. That’s what they hired me for.
I will step back and allow the smart dudes and dudettes to adress that. Nothing that can;t be fixed. But we gotta fix Washington first.
How, then, does having some politician,… ,
… wank-on about how “Soc Sec is a Ponzi scheme” help in any way?
Have you seen the hysteria around SS changes? In addition we have the mistaken idea that SS is fully funded. Something has to change voluntarily, or it will change involuntarily.
IF there’s a “problem” with Soc Sec, then RAISE the FICA cap. Then the problem quickly is resolved.
Not going to happen. SS on it’s face is a defined benefit program. Everybody puts in amount “x”, and they get amount “y” upon retirement. Change that to 2x, 3x or 4x with no change in benefit and then it’s welfare.
I see NO politicians anywhere making any kind of *sensible* or sound suggestions for resolving what they’re all wanking about as a hugely giant problem.
True enough. That hysteria to incite voters on both sides kills the process. Personally I like the ideas of ending the wars, keeping budgets constant year over year without automatic increases, and maybe a half percent increase in payroll taxes.
Welcome. We have a lot of smart and nice people here so stay around.
Do you have the numbers to prove it? Please, crunch us some numbers, or confine your remarks to blogs where people don`t understand how this stuff works. You are in the wrong place.
What would you have the SSA invest its surplus in? Enron?
There is no surplus anymore. That’s the whole point. Past surpluses were spent by Govt and marked in passing by “bonds”. There is no money other than what is collected in taxes today.
Oh boy ive never heard THAT metaphor used before…actually its in the low information voter hanbook of frequnetly used words and phrases with a link to social security. when i encounter them in here, and they show up ocassionally i like to play like ive never heard the word before and ask them “whats a ponzi scheme? how does that work”
I don’t agree completely with your commentary re raising the FICA cap, but I thank you for a sensible answer.
My point (speaking only for myself) is that it’s useless to wank on about Ponzi Schemes, which on fan the flames of the “hysteria around SS changes.” Yes I’ve seen quite a bit of that deliberately ginned up hysteria, and I quite agree that both sides do it nearly equally to “kill the process.”
That’s my point. I feel that all of us need to come up with workable solutions and begin demanding them, fwiw.
“Personally I like the ideas of ending the wars, keeping budgets constant year over year without automatic increases, and maybe a half percent increase in payroll taxes.”
Agree totally with your comment about ending wars. On the fence re the constant budget & need to think about that more, but the half percent increase in payroll taxes may be a place to start.
Gov. Perry is absolutely wrong in my opinion about Social Security Definately not a ponzi scheme and only thing suspicious is how $105 trillion number came out of no-where. First social security is not welfare. Public Savings in a common pool and every body sharing from it based on how long some one lives after a time. Something like a party where everybody brings a dish to the table and everybody takes a part of it till they are done.
I hope he has the insight on how social security is saving the world economy right now from falling into depression and keeping our economy af-float till it finds its railings.
.
Agreed. It’s rather frightening how regressive this nation has become. It’s like we’re drowning in an ocean of anti-intellectualism.
then raise taxes, and by all means, stop cutting them. but thats what this is about .. taxes WILL be raised..just not on the 1% that actually have the surplus money to tax.
You still don’t understand, do you? The purpose of building up a fund is to run it down. The interest is just frosting on the cake. Second, the reason interest income is so low is because you fucking Republicans blew up the economy and we no have close to zero rates oln short term lmoney and 2.5 percent on long term. eight years ago the 10 year US treasury benchmark rate was over 6 percent. Everybody`s pension fund is going negative with current rates. Get a book. Learn how to read and stuff your Koch talking points up your ass.
Losing SS would put quite a dent in my finances and it scares me to think about losing it.
Eh? I think you’re more than just comic relief, but we can certainly also use some humor here, too. Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride.
Good catch.
Yes. I quite agree. And I’m sick & tired of libertarians (not pointing at anyone in particular; more in terms of the generalizations being bandied about) dissing ME and others for wanting to be able to, I dunno, get a FAIR return on my *investment* in Soc Sec.
I’m so sick & tired of this nonsense, when we’re surrounded by “citizens” of immense wealth beyond all imagining, and all they want to do is rip off YOU and ME, while sending out their highly paid lackey mouthpieces to wag their fingers at US hard working tax payers, and admonish us about being some kind of welfare cheater-slacker.
I have other savings, but Soc Sec is meant to be part of my retirement. No Ifs, Ands, or Buts about it. And quite frankly, there is NO reason why I shouldn’t be able to get back what I SAVED.
No. Private insurance invests the premium income in a variety of vehicles that are used to pay benefits as the investments mature.
Social security buys treasury bonds, now about $4.5 trillion, because it has virtually no other place to put the money (we would go orbital if it went into a wall street bank, corporate bonds or the stack market). The problem is that the government uses the proceeds for other purposes, and have done so for decades.
Well isn’t that interesting? Because some earlier commenters totally disputed that this happens. I’m inclined to agree with you, but others perhaps are not.
That’s my favorite part. Good rant.
Well, I guess I would have been disappointed not to have at least one obscenity tossed my way.
Usually the purpose in building up a fund is to live off the income. Surely you heard of college endowments? How about retirement funds? And, it doesn’t matter what the interest rates are because Treasury will always make up the shortfall in payroll taxes.
Now, if you want to blame anyone for low rates, that’s Bernanke’s bailiwick.
Ponzi scheme by common understanding is some private individual or organization getting benefit out of the hatched scheme and Public taken for a ride.
Social Security is Public Savings in a Public Treasury disbursed to Public after a certain age. That is as simple as that.
Sorry, but I have to call you on this one. Rich people are rich because people want to give them money in exchange for whatever they are selling. There’s no ripping off. No taking from the income pie, no one suffers because they have money.
More importantly, the math doesn’t work. You could take all the income from the rich and it wouldn’t make a real dent in the deficit. For that matter the deficit is 50% larger than all the income taxes paid by the entire country.
I spotted YOU right away. From across the room. Kind of a “James Dean” look about you. You know, pouty and pensive……..
LOL. I wouldn’t mind looking all pouty and pensive but not like James Dean. I’m female and very old.
Thanks. Just what everybody to know we’re not all hicks here in Texas.
Got some intellectuals too.
Now, pardon me while I change the oil in my tractor and pick up a few boxes of wine at Walmart.
FDL has lots of great Texans – who could probably help you drink that wine.
Steve Forbes – inherited his fortune
Kochroaches – inherited their fortune
Bill Gates – rich father and stole other people’s ideas
Walton family – inherited their fortune
That’s not to say that others haven’t used their skills to build their fortune, eg, Ross Perot.
had to leave the party for a while…
you don’t quite understand the figures, do you? Read this (which I am picking up from your comment) again – and then read your reply to me again -
2. Social Security has three revenue sources— Payroll contributions from employers and employees (83%), interest earned on social security’s U.s. Treasury bond assets (14%), and income taxes on the social security benefits paid by those with higher incomes (3%) [Figure 2].
I have to disagree with your simplistic answer this time around. Yes, there is some of that “… people want to give them money in exchange for whatever they’re selling.”
However, there is PLENTY of ripping off going on. One tiny example:
http://www.parsec-santa.com/words/RipOffs/LegalRipOffs.html
Since someone mentioned Enron, up above, here’s an excellent example of the very rich who personally, maliciously, and *deliberately* ripped ME off as CA resident. The Bush Crime syndicate and their very good – now conveniently “dead” – buddy, Ken Lay, very *methodically* ripped off CA citizens in a FAKE “energy crisis” in 2002.
Since we are also talking about the plight of Seniors in this post, I’ll add that I worked with a number of Seniors at that time, and they were very very definitely impacted financially by what Ken Lay CHOSE TO DO TO THEM.
Neither my golden-ager friends, nor I, “wanted” to “give” Ken Lay the money that he *deliberately* RIPPED US OFF for, but that’s what happened.
And the when incumbent CA Gov Gray Davis (no great fan of his, but he did win the vote) started to *investigate* the Enron RIP OFF of CA citizens, as well as CA govt coffers, why whaddaya know: known CROOK Darryl Issa just happened to “decide” to recall Gray Davis. Why? Not really bc Davis was doing such a crappy job… no sir. Bc Davis proposed to *investigate* the Enron rip-off.
And finally, TX big-wigs got Arnold Schwartzenegger to run in that recall election when it became *obvious* that Daryll Issa (the TX bigwig’s initial TOOL) wouldn’t/couldn’t win. And so Scwartzenegger, who ran on the platform of: “I’m so rich that no one can BUY me” (Yeah he really said that BALDFACED LIE in his campaign), immediately SHUT DOWN the Enron investigation within moments of being elected CA governor.
Yeah: tell me some more fairy tales about the rich only get richer simply because they built a better mousetrap and they got paid for services rendered. True: that does happen. But certainly NOT all the time.
And now the SCOTUS has, in its infinite bought-off “wisdom,” deemed that mega-corporations are just “people,” there’s going to be ever more ripping off of the middle/working classes by the super rich, like “dead” Ken Lay & his BFF, GW Bush.
I have relatives in Houston who can talk your ear off about what Mr. “Works So Hard” Ken Lay DID to them AND their pensions when Enron went bust and Ken Lay went “dead” so that nothing could be recovered for workers who were RIPPED OFF of their hard-earned pensions. Yeah, I think a few of them could set you straight about how they surely weren’t interested in “GIVING their money” to Ken Lay bc, ya know, he’s just such a great guy and *deserves* more than everyone else.
Financial War:
http://rt.com/news/finance-war-usa-banks/
A quote from that article you linked to. FYI.
OK, we agree on payroll taxes and income taxes, yes? Now where do you think the money to pay interest comes from? General revenues, also known as income taxes. It all comes out of the same pot.
You’re mistaken. The money meant for Social Security was actually taken and replaced with bonds. That’s why there is a big shakedown going on suggesting we need to increase the age of retirees or drop benefit amount. It’s all about the interest due on that money that was “borrowed” from the fund to fund wars.
The government/Congress no longer like the terms of the loan so they’re doing their darndest to welch on paying it back.
Not all the time, but most of the time. Demonizing all rich people because some are crooks is stereotyping.
Geez wasn’t it just last week you were insisting 47% of folks don’t pay taxes?
You guys on the right side of the aisle need to get your game straight if you want to be believeable.
Really? You honestly believe folks like Jamie Dimon (bank crook) or Duke (walmart CEO) built a better mousetrap and therefore deserve 8 figure incomes? From where I am sitting I’m not seeing it. It seems to me OTHER people built that better mousetrap and they just manage to collect money because they are better connected than the average American, certainly not because they work harder.
The wingnuts have the defenders of SS in quite a pickle. There’s that Hudson Institute paper that claims that Greedspan created the “trust fund” under Reagan by bumping up payroll contributions and “investing” them in general expenditures. The complementary relief in income taxes meant that overall, Federal receipts were made more regressive. I.e., the larger earners profited more in the “social investment”.
So, those who then shouldered less of the burden should now shoulder more. If SS “trust fund” money demands should be met by increased income taxes, those taxes be more progressive.
For those wishing to keep SS “fair”, this is a dilemma. Put the burden on the more prosperous, and you will be charged with committing “welfare”. Put the burden on the less, and you will be double charging. Not to mention those 47% who don’t pay. Checkmate.
Try to accommodate the ruthless by insisting welfare is unfair, and they will find a way to shaft you.
Anyway, the rich owe. That’s were the argument is. Otherwise you’re doing a pretty poor technocratic job of shooting down the shooter.
I am not mistaken. The Trust Fund was set-up during the Reagan Administration for the explicit purpose of holding surpluses for the payment of future benefits. As a fiduciary must, the SSA invested the money. Money invested in US Treasuries is not taken any more than the money in your savings account is taken.
Repeating the “trust fund doesn’t exist” meme is little more than serving tea to those who don’t know what they’re drinking.
The elite don’t play capitalism like the technocrats think it should be played. To your disadvantage.
Financial warfare is all about manipulation of expectations. The technocratic arguments don’t cut the mustard.
That Perry is a card! Jeebus is coming! Time to convert the Jews. Pretty damn clever trick. I think the Zionists are rather going to give Jeebus his second going: Rapture Rick Perry of Texas: Israel’s Stealth GOP Presidential Candidate?
Doesn’t matter if you do or not. The people that hired these folks wanted to buy their experience, expertise, and whatever other skills. In short, they wanted to trade money for those two guys abilities.
If that’s a problem, write a letter to the boards.
cwaltz is right. The money was taken and replaced by pieces of paper. There is no money vault, pot, lockbox, or anything else. Every benefit paid comes form current taxation.
Where are you getting your 47% number from? As far as I’m aware even minimum wage employees are paying into Social Security and Medicare.
Those pieces of paper have value though. What the government wants to do is welch on paying it’s IOUs to the people it “borrowed” the money from.
The government doesn’t get to be a deadbeat. It owes the workers the money it borrowed from the surplus fund to pay for wars and whatnot.
I’m pretty outraged that the right would rail against the “deadbeat homeowners” and not feel equally as irritated by deadbeat legislators.
Abilities(Do you mean the ability to grift or cheat?) Are you listening to yourself?
Jamie Dimon garnered/garners a seven figure income and the guy had the gall to argue that “nobody could have ever imagined it was a bad idea to lend money to people without documentation.” This is a BANKING executive. Geez, you’re right it must be his abilities that make him so sought after.
Don’t even get me started on the number of execs who tank a company and still get a six figure golden parachute.
Abilities? Bahahahahahahahahaha. It’s all about connections. That’s why they all merry go round from Board of Directors to CEO over and over despite incompetence.
Sorry, haven’t researched the exact figure. NTU: ‘Who pays Taxes’ shows the general idea. Or TF: ‘Adjusted Gross Income Shares’. Need I go to the IRS XLS data?
But you’re missing the point. I am talking about the “trust fund” demands paid by income taxes.
It’s going to be amusing in a sick kind of watch a train wreck type of way to watch Bachmann and Perry try to out Jeebus each other.
I have money that if Bachmann gets the Presidency that every Christian will get an armband with a cross on it so that they can tell who has the “unclean and not saved” cooties.
Scary, scary batch of candidates.
C’mon pardner. Bidness is bidness.
Please do use the IRS website. I have a hard time taking a site that calls taxpayers “overburdened” (NTU) when we have a huge frackin’ deficit.
Underburdened is more like it.
Courtesy of You Know Who. They do an excellent job of getting the Jeebites to vote for Frankensteins.
Amy Goodman can’t let on what makes the frightening horror show grind. Wake up, folks.
Don’t you mean crookery is crookery? :)
I don’t begrudge people wealth if they put in an honest days worth of labor. The crooks at the top of most of these corporations don’t do an honest days labor though. They spend their day figuring out how to screw the average American into paying for goods and services their company utilize, exploiting third world workers, buying off legislators into writing favorable legislation for them, etc, etc.
Then there is the whole subset who make their wealth off playing the rich man’s version of a scratcher card, Wall street “investment”.
Nothing says patriotism like cheering every time an American job gets shipped overseas to some third world Hades.
No, I’m not a hate the rich person. I’m a hate the greedy and selfish person. It just so happens that alot of rich got rich by being greedy and selfish.
It’s the wars which have been funded in part by stealing SS funds that are ponzi schemes.
Oh c’mon, shooter, that’s a cop-out. The example I provided was a MASSIVE RIP OFF of CA citizens, plus the CA state & local gov’ts. Spare me. And that kind of corporate ripping off goes on constantly, aka the Mortgage mess, where YOU and I got to bail out the Banks, and the top dogs in the Banks have done nothing but bring down HUGE salaries and bonuses.
Now you’re not even trying anymore and have resorted to rightwing talking points. You can do better than that; I’ve seen it.
Oh please! That’s a load of hogwash, esp given how the US taxpaywer was on the hook to bail these crooks out.
Again, now all you’re doing is spouting rightwing libertarian claptrap which can be boiled down to: IF you’re RICH, it’s because you *deserve* it, and IF you’re POOR, it’s because you *deserve* it.
Nonsense. The wealth transfer from the lower 97% has been steadily ongoing for the past 3 decades, and since the crash of 2008 the Shock Doctrine has been implemented to greatly accellerate the process. The upper 2% own & control the greatest majority of the wealth in our nation. Businesses are holding on great amounts of cash in order to drive down US citizen wages to the lowest levels possible.
These corporate raiders have taken over our govt and ride the US population for every last nickle they can take us for. Claiming that they “work so hard,” or that the “make things that people want to buy” justifies insane amounts of greedy wealth is bogus.
You made some better commentaries previously, but it’s late on a Friday, and you’re just resorting to Rush Limbaugh’s greatest hits at this points.
IRS 2008 ‘Individual Income Tax Rates and Shares’ Page 65, Table 5:
Total Income Tax Share, 2008, Top 50%: 97.30%.
I’ve seen a better presentation showing how the tax rate has declined and the tax share increased in the higher percentiles (since income is increasingly mal-distributed.) Can’t find it right now.
Time for some leveling.
Good luck with your adjudication of “honest”. Ho ho. At the bottom of the pyramid of “honesty” are those squashed rioters. That’s where your adjudication ends up.
Where’s the honesty in a massive devouring of the earth’s abundance for parasitic delight and genocide? Really, get a grip.
So, wealth transfer and Shock Doctrine, what are these symptoms of? I mean, if these maggots write a history after Jeebus’ second going, what are their excuses going to be?
The largest difference being that those on the bottom stealing will more than likely see jail time.
Remind me again how many bankers are in jail for grifting and engaging in less than honest behavior?
I’m pretty sure that 63% is just SOLE income tax rather than income and payroll taxes. I can assure you my son who makes a whopping $7.75 an hour paid taxes. They weren’t income taxes but they sure were taxes.
Yes, abilities. I can see you disagree, but it doesn’t matter. The reality is that whatever Jamie Dimon makes has absolutely no bearing on your life. Vikram Pandit of Citicorp worked for one dollar. Did your life change? Of course not. There’s no reason to get exercised over what the next guy makes, fair or unfair.
Of course. But it was income taxes I was referring to. Per my argument. Capice?
63% of what?
Can we zoom out now?
What Jamie Diamond and cohort have Madoff with has every bearing on the miserable state of our lives.
Soak the Rich!
Actually quite a lot of them were paid off during the Clinton years. It was just Dubya who wanted his rich friends to have the bonds to sit on, so you the poor can pay for their free ride on the gravy train.
There are at least two big differences:
1) Government is a function of the people’s will and so their decision is fine.
2) Government doesn’t skim off part of it for personal purposes, though it has been ‘borrowing’ some and writing bonds which have to eventually be repaid.
It’s not a Madoff who is unaccountable and who does it for his family’s welfare.
Because Republicans have the House. The second Dems are in charge again they should fix the problem. They might have done it in ’09-’10, but didn’t think it was important enough considering other things on the agenda.
Which one would that be for Romney? Where he lives or votes? Or, does he vote in both?
Thuguglicans are going to make it a Ponzi scheme. So there.
Exactly. Constitution ensures all debts need to be repaid. No questions asked. BTW Payment is in Dollars which is the worlds safest asset.
Unlike Madoff case which is a proper example of Ponzi scheme where money went to enrich himself and his family.
No party can make it a Ponzi scheme. No person or private organization is getting those funds to apply the term Ponzi scheme to it. BTW it is refreshing not to see a single mention of exactly opposite sounding entitlements word applied to Public Savings instead more ludicrous comment of Ponzi scheme is used.
Funds go to Public Treasury and Re-paid by Public Treasury. All debts are honored by Constitution, no questions asked and paid in US Dollars BTW worlds safest asset by Public Treasury. This is the simple summary.
Dimon’s “abilities” should have landed his backside in jail.
Your statement that his wealth has no bearing on me is as ridiculous as an argument saying that the fact a BK worker makes less than a living wage has no bearing on me. We live in a society,not on a random island, so yes, the fact that someone has wealth or lacks wealth does affect each and every one of us.
Then your arguement is dumb since we know that INCOME TAXES aren’t the sole source of government funding. Especially since even shooter has admitted that the SURPLUS from payroll taxes has been utilized to do everything from bailout bankers to fund wars since it went into the General FUND and was replaced by a bunch of bonds that Congress doesn’t want to come due.
Try again that’s a right wing myth. Do you want me to pull up Pandit’s compensation? I assure you it wasn’t a dollar.
In 2007 Pandit sold his hedge fund to Citi which was shuttered for millions. In 2008 Pandit and his “abilities” presided over a net loss of over 27 billion. However, his compensation package was well over 30 million.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-24/citigroup-boosts-executive-stock-awards-will-increase-pandit-s-pay-of-1.html
This year he’ll get over almost 2 million and over 23 million in a “retention bonus”
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-05-19/international-business/29560076_1_ceo-vikram-pandit-citigroup-retention-award
Poor poor Pandit the compensation he receives from a company that wouldn’t even exist were it not for a taxpayer bailout is so miniscule.
Of course, I was saying that thuguglicans would like to avoid honoring those bonds, one way or another. Then, all there partners in crime would have skimmed off the “investments” in contracts to their Killer Corporations, etc, Ponzi-like.
Don’t be so anal about it. You’re not going to control them and I’m saying they’re the conmen.
Sorry, I can’t follow your counter. Want to try again?
Income taxes, payroll taxes, etc, etc all are part of one big pot of money that funds our government. The right likes to make the distinction that only a small sum of people are paying taxes. That simply isn’t true though is it? If it were we wouldn’t be having a discussion about cutting benefits for seniors since our illustrious Congress people are heming and hawing about paying out on the bonds in the trust fund(or as the right side of the aisle like to call them “worthless batches of IOUs” would we?
I’d really like some intellectual honesty from the right side of the aisle. The right has no more intention of ensuring the guy who works at Walmart gets a retirement than they intend on raising taxes on people like the very entitled Pandits and Dimons. Their intent is to whine that the poor pay nothing in taxes as they rob them blind to pay for hacks like Pandit to stay in business.
It’s the complete lack of intellectual honesty that drives me to the middle. Oh and the greed and selfishness thing. Quite frankly if I received 20 million dollars compensation in ONE YEAR of my time I certainly wouldn’t be whining about having to pay taxes, especially since I knew that the average American(assuming 2 median wage jobs of $50,000 per year) could work 2 jobs for 30 years and not make that sum of money IN HIS LIFETIME of earning.
This is not like Public deposited money into some private entity like Mr. Madoff fund and private entity said they lost it all one fine day.
Here we are talking about people working all their working years and saving in the safest investment of the world. Once my Economics teacher told the class that it is a blatant mis-conception that Americans do not save and spend everything. As a country among all nations in the world Americans are the most savings oriented because of Social Security.
BTW that is besides the point. This is Public Treasury and our constitution guarantees payments of all debts in Dollars. There is no question for anybody getting short-changed as long as our constitution is the supreme law of the country. If the talk becomes pointless, silly comments about Public Savings as Ponzi scheme etc one is degrading our own public treasury and its running, their own reputation suffers without saying much from other side.
Ok. But I don’t get “It’s the complete lack of intellectual honesty that drives me to the middle.” Who’s presenting the intellectual dishonesty from the “left side of the aisle”? In fact, I don’t hear honesty from the middle. At least I don’t hear clarity in the rebuttals to the dishonest shooter, here.
Instead, I hear evasion. The desperation to cast SS as fair when the insatiable are only concerned about their own welfare is foolish. SS should be welfare. Social insurance is right. And the rich must be denounced and taken off their welfare.
The timidity to take on this crime head-on cedes a moral argument to the right. The beneficiaries of this corrupt system owe an enormous debt.
My point far above was that the defenders of SS have been put in a trap. When more money must be drawn from income taxes, they fear to say the prosperous owe (perhaps there is some self-interest at work?) but they cannot allow the less fortunate to pay twice (and especially that ~47% less fortunate.) To escape that trap, the defenders of SS must be more intellectually honest, themselves.
The thieves must pay recompense.
My dear comrade, the Ponzi accusers are acolytes of Ponzi criminals. It is their own capitalist relapse from which they accuse SS of being a fraudulent “investment”.
An insolvency of SS, by capitalist accounting, is due to the failure of capitalism. Let them own their failure.
But even more, the priests have resorted to fraud – the deliberate misrepresentation of expectations. The Machiavellian accusers are the scoundrels.
Capitalism only works in heaven. Amen.
That’s nonsense. It’s not the way financial systems work.