[Editor's note: S&P downgrades US to AA+ with negative outlook / Reuters. Here's a rerun of last week's S&P post]
By Scarecrow and Jane Hamsher
The Politico headline says it all:
U.S. credit downgrade worries Obama, Congress more than default
It’s not the default that strikes the most fear in the White House and Congress these days. It’s the downgrade
As Robert Reich notes, Standard and Poors is the “biggest driver in the deficit battle.” Why would anyone care what the corrupt and disgraced organizations who quite nearly brought down the world economy think about anything at this point? And yet, that is where elite opinion is focused right now:
[W]hat really haunts the administration is the very real prospect, stoked two weeks ago by Standard & Poor’s, that Barack Obama could go down in history as the president who presided over his country’s loss of its gold-plated, triple-A bond rating.
[]
Financial analysts say such a move would hit Americans with more than $100 billion a year in higher borrowing costs, but it’s not just that. It would be a psychic blow to a nation that already looks over its shoulder at rising economic powers like China and wonders, what’s gone wrong? And it would give the president’s Republican rivals a ready-made line of attack that he’s dragging the country in the wrong direction.
This rumbling has been coming from Capitol Hill for a while, which made us start asking questions about what was really going on with Standard and Poors. It felt like there’s a story-behind-the-story driving S&P’s actions in the debt ceiling debate, which appear inexplicable at face value and go way beyond what Moody’s or Fitch have done. And the more we looked at the timeline of events, the more we wondered how the intertwining dramas of a) S&P downgrade threats, b) the liability that the ratings agencies may have for their role in the 2008 financial meltdown, and c) the GOP’s attempts to insulate the ratings agencies from b) are all impacting each other.
Timeline of Events
On July 21, 2010 President Obama signs Dodd-Frank into law. Prior to Dodd-Frank, the courts found that credit ratings are expressions of opinion that were protected under the first amendment, subject to a demonstration of actual malice:
The Dodd-Frank Financial Reform Act stripped away those protections, so that CRA’s were now subject to the same expert liability as an auditor or securities analyst, and required only a “knowing” or “reckless” state of mind for liability, rather than proof of scienter. It also repealed Section 436 of the Securities Act of 1933, which granted “safe harbor” for ratings, which were part of a prospectus.
Which, for obvious reasons, made the ratings agencies extremely nervous.
In October 2010 S&P issued its first threat to downgrade US debt: “If the U.S. government maintains its current policies for the next 40 years in the face of rising health care and pension spending pressure, it is unlikely that Standard & Poor’s Ratings Services would maintain its ‘AAA’ rating on the U.S.” The report paints a target on the back of Social Security and Medicare, says nothing about the wars, the Bush tax cuts, private health care costs or the absurdity of 40 year projections.
Ratings agencies are supposed to be reactive and analyze only what they see. They are not supposed to explicitly or implicitly give ”assurance or guarantee of a particular rating prior to a rating assessment.” By prescribing not only an austerity package for the United States, but stating that “in the long term, the U.S. AAA rating relies on reforms” of Social Security and Medicare, they most assuredly broke that rule.
S&P put forth no legitimate basis for their downgrade threat. As every reputable economist keeps reminding us (James K. Galbraith, Joe Stiglitz, FT’s Martin Wolf, Peter Radford, Bruce Bartlett, Krugman), the US is not Greece and does not face its risk of default. Unlike Greece, the US has its own currency, and unlike Greece, its debt is denominated and would be paid in its own currency. It can create that currency at will. So the only way the US can be forced into default is if Congress and the President do something that would be insane, like refuse to raise the debt limit, and the President then refuse to use the Executive authority of the Constitution to prevent a default.
But S&P was clearly determined to set itself up as arbiter of the US debt ceiling debate. They said nothing in December when the Bush tax cuts were extended, which dramatically exacerbated the deficit problem they warned of in October. But on February 14 President Obama releases his budget, which cut the deficit by $1.1 trillion over 10 years. The Standard and Poors committee found Obama proposal “disappointing.”
The White House clearly began to worry about the political implications of what S&P might do. Emails from both Treasury and S&P were provided to the House Financial Services committee earlier this week, showing that in March S&P and Treasury officials began coordinating discussions of the administration’s budget strategy before the S&P committee met to discuss the US credit rating.
But White House officials weren’t the only ones trying to work the refs. On March 14 Congressional Republicans stage their first challenge to 2010′s Dodd-Frank financial regulation reforms — an attempt to repeal the provision exposing credit rating agencies to the legal liability they were chafing to escape from.
And on April 5 Paul Ryan announced his alternative budget plan. Ryan’s budget was claimed (it was mostly a fraud) to produce over $4 trillion in reductions, while reducing tax rates. It also did so by slashing Medicare and making hundreds of billions in unspecified cuts to unnamed domestic programs. S&P were conspicuously silent.
April 13 was a big day
President Obama gave a speech in which he vowed to cut $4 trillion in cumulative deficits within 12 years through a combination of spending cuts and tax increases. Why was he suddenly pursuing $4 trillion in cuts, up from $1.1 trillion in January? Clearly Ryan had upped the ante. But what was he competing for?
Also on April 13 , Timothy Geithner along with Deputy Secretary Wolin, OMB Director Lew and a representative of the vice president’s office met with S&P personnel, per Geithner’s June 13 letter to the House Financial Services subcommittee. ABC reported that Geithner asked S&P’s David Beers to hold off on issuing any report until after the President Obama and Congress had completed negotiating over the rest of the FY2011 budget.
But perhaps the biggest thing that happened on April 13: A bipartisan study on the financial crisis from the Coburn-Levin Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations released a report saying the credit ratings agencies were a “key cause” of the financial crisis. They issued a 650 page report, which included the following recommendation (p. 16):
The SEC should use its regulatory authority to facilitate the ability of investors to hold credit ratings agencies accountable in civil lawsuits for inflated credit ratings, when a credit rating agency knowingly or recklessly fails to conduct a reasonable investigation of the rated security.
Two days later, David Beers reached out to Undersecretary Goldstein to let Treasury know that the Standard and Poors committee has changed its outlook to “negative.” On April 18: Standard and Poors issued press release downgrading the outlook for US sovereign debt from stable to negative and giving a 30% chance of a ratings downgrade from AAA to AA.
“U.S.’s fiscal profile has deteriorated steadily during the past decade and two years after the financial crisis” they say — with no mention of their own role in that crisis. And whereas the October threat had been based on concerns over Social Security and Medicare, the latest press release contained no mention of either. Now they were worried that “Republicans and Democrats are deeply divided on a plan to reduce debt” and that political squabbling will prevent the debt ceiling from being raised.
On April 19 Geithner was dispatched to do an exhaustive round of talk shows, saying he disagrees with Standard and Poors and that there is “no risk” of a credit ratings downgrade.
But Geithner isn’t the only one. On April 20 Mitt Romney begins using the S&P threat of a downgrade for political advantage. In a radio interview he says that S&P “just downgraded their view for the future of America” and called for the President to “sit down and personally meet with S&P” as he said he did as governor of Massachusetts.
SEC takes the gloves off
In the midst of all of this, the SEC was moving to implement Dodd-Frank in ways that would negatively impact all the ratings agencies, and looking into S&P’s role in the 2008 mortgage crisis:
- May 18: the SEC commissioners “voted unanimously to propose new, tougher regulations for credit rating agencies,” which would “implement certain provisions of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act and enhance the SEC’s existing rules governing credit ratings.”
- June 9: Bloomberg reports the SEC may recommend recommend that ratings agencies be prohibited from advising investment banks on how to earn top rankings for asset- backed securities
- June 14: Reports emerge that the SEC is considering civil fraud charges against S&P and Moody’s in the run up to the financial crisis.
But Standard and Poors was not cowed by the SEC’s sudden rash of action. On July 14 they raised the threat of a downgrade to 50% within the next 90 days.
And now they were very explicit about what they were looking for in exchange for a AAA rating. They wanted a number….which just happened to be the magic $4 trillion number:
If Congress and the Administration reach an agreement of about $4 trillion, and if we to conclude that such an agreement would be enacted and maintained throughout the decade, we could, other things unchanged, affirm the ‘AAA’ long-term rating and A-1+ short-term ratings on the U.S.
Incredibly, S&P’s Devan Sharma told Congress this week that that S&P had been “misquoted” regarding the $4 trillion figure and that it had been “inaccurately stated that the company was calling for that specific threshold.” I really don’t know any other way you could read it. He also accused the administration of “meddling in the ratings process,” a charge quickly trumpeted by Republicans on the committee.
Politico reported that administration officials were “shocked by the move,” suggesting that it did not seem to square with prior S&P reports (duh).
But S&P wasn’t done. On July 21: David Beers met with Congressional Republicans in a closed door meeting to brief them on a potential downgrade of US debt.
And on that same day, the House Financial Services Committee approved the bill to remove the Dodd-Frank provisions that subject credit ratings agencies to expert liability. It passed 31-19 “over the opposition of the senior Democrat on the panel,” devolving into a clear partisan effort.
Then on Tuesday of this week, the SEC unanimously approved a plan to erase references to credit ratings from certain rulebooks. They also adopted alternatives to the credit ratings — a blow to the CRA’s entire business model.
Conclusion
It’s becoming more and more obvious that Standard and Poor’s has a political agenda riding on the notion that the US is at risk of default on its debt based on some arbitrary limit to the debt-to-GDP ratio. There is no sound basis for that limit, or for S&P’s insistence on at least a $4 trillion down payment on debt reduction, any more than there is for the crackpot notion that a non-crazy US can be forced to default on its debt.
Whatever S&P’s agenda, it has nothing to do with avoiding default risks or putting the US on sound fiscal footing. It appears to be intertwined with their attempts to absolve themselves from responsibility for their role in the 2008 financial crisis, and they are willing to manipulate not only the 2012 election but the world economy to escape the SEC’s attempts to regulate them.
It’s time the media and Congress started asking Standard and Poors what their political agenda is and whom it serves.
Sign our petition to the SEC: Revoke S&P’s authority as a credit ratings agency for their use of ratings as a political weapon and their attempts to avoid responsibility for their role in the financial crisis of 2008.



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Thank you, Jane, as always.
Ding. I rate you AAA!
Thank you lobster. And thanks too to Scarecrow. I had the timeline but he had the economics glue.
Great article. I think we all know that the entire system is corrupt, and everyone is in bed together with the aim of stealing all the money and sticking us with all the bills.
Wow Jane. Hell of an article. Great read.
I’m curious to know if S&P employs some sort of financial models via computer that show a bleak financial future? Does this model incorporate an assumption that the Obama Tax Cuts will be extended beyond 2012?
It would be interesting to know the answers to these questions.
Edit – just to clarify, I’m curious to know the above because I’m wondering if they have any solid research to back up their assertion that our credit is worth less in the event of a default, or even in the event of smaller deficit reduction.
They’re the masters of [financial] war…
Thank you!
I commented in passing about the correlation between the SEC charges and the recent actions by S & P. This timeline is great. Had just emailed EW about a timeline regarding S & P on Sunday. Glad to see this work.
The S & P does not want this timeline in print. It gets interesting to form the timeline over the last decade+ as well (Enron comes to mind).
Nonetheless, the moves noted in the last few weeks are criminal.
Blackmail comes to mind.
x2
Signed.
$10
As I was constructing the timeline I was going “wait a minute…this looks awfully bad when you put it all together.”
So I emailed Scarecrow and said “I think I need a second pair of eyes on this one.” He was very helpful in adding the economics overlay and helping to deconstruct just how bogus their “reports” were.
So it’s the corporate elites and the governmental elites fighting among themselves? Maybe that’s a good sign.
Thank you, Scarecrow and Jane.
Hmmm, maybe the name of a new novel? Jane and the Scarecrow!
yes !
- presently on the google as I distinctly remember two other ‘threats’ within the last 18 months, believe one was BP related
I recall them because at the time I was struck with just how blatant and nakedly hostile they were
I just don’t believe it. Nobody is going to risk death by downgrading U.S. credit without permission from Obama/Wall Street/Fed. If there is a down grade it’s part of the plan.
Well there are plans within plans. And Wall Street’s plan may not include Obama.
You or I might laugh at the idea that anyone takes the ratings agencies seriously, but this really is what people on Capitol Hill believe.
Jane, it’s amazing to me that I can take in information, let it float around in my head and know, somehow, when it doesn’t make real sense. That’s something’s rotten in Denmark. Just not kosher.
And, then I find an article like this one and think, ding. That’s it.
Thank you. I feel better, somehow. Just a little. Like I’m not totally paranoid.
Wow. wow. wow. You have really nailed it, guys. The steep learning curve just plummeted to the bottom of the graph, indicating total comprehension, and you did it. Congratulations, Jane and Scarecrow; this post deserves – what is it, an Izzie? That award that goes from I.F.Stone folk to the most important journalistic endeavor or whatever – hey, roll in a Pulitzer and Nobel Peace Price into the mixture!
Bravo. All the wierdness compresses into that nagging question about mortgages and the elephant in the room.
Now, shut up Thom Hartmann. Stop the stupid he said/she said in the political seraglio. Take a glance outside the box where true reporters are doing amazing work.
Here.
Oooooh baby! That’s the kind of stuff I come here to read.
I hope this timeline gets attention. Jane, are you able to get on TV to discuss the timeline?
And I was not kidding about the long term timeline either.
Thank you again to both of you.
With Keith O’s new venue, he’d probably be the most willing to explore this. It’s not a bad idea.
BTW
I wrote this comment earlier in the week and it was epu’d…
Here is what S & P folks are willingly doing to the economy:
Sink the S&P shrimp boat!!
Jane, fwiw, Harry Markopolos (“No One Would Listen” about Madoff) might be an ally in motivating the SEC. As you know Harry’s rep is a little eccentric, but he’s got solid cred as a whistleblower.
“We shape our tools [and elect them!], and thereafter our tools shape us” — Marshall McLuhan.
“And why is that?” — Alice Munro.
“It’s what I call the knowledge gap” — eCAHNomics.
Another excellent piece.
Thanks Scarecrow and Ms. Hamsher.
Oh, yeah!!!!!
Thank you, Jane. As always your voice is lucid. Now I really want to know, and it’s time we find out, who’s agenda S & P is serving?
Any thoughts on that?
p.s. Thanks to Scarecrow also!
Yeah things just weren’t adding up for me either. That’s why I started doing the timeline, trying to figure out what was happening around the time of the 3 press releases. And when you look it all together you instantly go “wait a minute….”
just tweeted post to Dylan Ratigan :D
Guess Ed needs it tweeted to him too!
You are a wonderful PR person. And, I mean Just Now and Always.
Folks should know Ms. Hamsher did all of the digging, timeline research. No one does it better. My role was to say, OMG! And to find a few links of economists saying these guys are both incompetent and nuts, and there are a lot of those.
The best way to fight blackmail is to expose the wrongdoing before the blackmailer gets a chance to do it. That way, the blackmailer has no power.
The crooks have no power if they are all locked up in jail where they belong. Why does that feel so naive to say?
Jane,
One of my students was the director of the sovereign debt section of Moody’s in the 1990s (for all I know he may still be). I asked him once how they decided on a downgrade. There really isn’t much analysis. They get together in committee and talk it out. You’ve sat on committees. You know how that works. The pre-emptor always or almost always wins. This is all fluff. I don’t believe Geithner believes the crap he is spilling for a New York minute. This is just to get the SS cuts stuffed down the throats of the American people.
A big downgrade (to investment quality) would of course have a major impact, because insurance companies and some other fiduciary trusts are obligated by law to hold assets of a certain quality. This was the problem that emerged when Ecuador and Argentina defaulted. It didn’t take much, and a lot of their bonds had to be unloaded. But that’s not the case here. There is no obligation to download for going from AAA to Aa.
Words Obama keeps repeating: “held hostage”.
I agree with you Knut.
I know I shouldn’t be shocked, being americk and business as usual.
But the level of fraud, corruption, and outright hypocrisy still shocks me.
These things really are cold amoral robots doing anything for the almighty dollar.
S&P should be broken up. Take the machine down.
It’s why I signed and pitched in 50 bosconies, using a Visa/Nation Magazine card, meaning something also goes to The Nation, plus these days FDL is spending beaucoup bosconies, doesn’t get my entire 50, some points go to the Visa UMB bank, plus Jane has to send me a thank you email, which costs something, and most important, this site must thrive or we’re done for.
My feelings as well. I’m becoming a bit numb from outrage overload. However, I’m also feeling like I’m having a big political awakening. Contradictory, but true.
I passed outrage overload.
Now it’s just numb shock.
Can’t wait for October 2011.
SP is just an agent, of whom?
You must persevere no matter what the burden, we need all hands on deck; remember what John Adams said “If good Men will not come to the of service of their Country, others will.”
Have we passed jail yet?
I really like your comment!
The Congress and President could un-delegate their constitutional powers to coin money from the Federal Reserve and solve this problem immediately.
I think the impact they really fear is more political than economic.
And that is the truly scary part. Because the reluctance to use the 14th Amendment could be tied to the fear of a downgrade, because they believe (rightly or wrongly, but probably rightly) that the Republicans will use it against Obama in 2012. That’s why we see all the Democratic groups out today with ads saying “if Social Security checks don’t go out it will be because of the Republicans.”
I do not want to believe they are contemplating doing this to senior citizens when it’s completely unnecessary, and especially not out of fear of some crap threat by the ratings agencies.
The Big Debt Deal is The Next Bubble. Who could have anticipated? Other than Rep. Eric Cantor. Those clever TARP guys will be getting some more bailouts for betting for or against US Bonds. I think bets on US Bonds should be illegal.
The ETF is “shorting” the US Bonds. I should say ultra-shorting. Kritter Cantor is betting on Default also. Apparently you can make a daily short. Cantor could make a killing. In a single day!
Markopolis is scheduled to appear on the Bill Maher show tonight. While I’m of the opinion that Maher is a political lightweight, maybe Harry will shed some light on the hot breath coming out of Standard & Poor’s.
Why should anyone put any credence in what they or Moody’s have to say? We all know where their allegiance is.
call me slavish devotee, cultist, whatever, but I literally shudder at the thought of not having Jane’s spideys available to us
mad props and thanks to you for your contribution Scarecrow – I’m on my third read
That is what Brad DeLong recommends.
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/07/time-for-a-debt-ceiling-technical-fix-in-which-i-move-to-the-left-of-steny-hoyer.html
And it may be the most sound move for the country. I wish I believed our leaders were guided by a desire to do what’s best rather than jockeying for political advantage. Because that’s how this is playing out.
Beautiful work you two!
You know what’s the tell?
S&P calls for $4T worth of cuts.
They could have just as easily called for for $4T worth of taxes.
This fight, their dog is in it.
Amazing work, you two. These people are playing for keeps and all bets are off.
I am really confused about something. Is it true that S&P and other credit agencies are funded by Wall Street? I’m having a hard time absorbing that.
They wouldn’t pull such a stunt unless they intend to impose martial law since the consequences will require it.
Here is some more background for Jane’s post.
http://my.firedoglake.com/scarecrow/2011/07/28/what-is-sps-ideological-agenda-because-it-aint-about-default-risk-or-economics/
“Republicans will use it against Obama in 2012.”
___
ALL of this shit is about Necklacing Obama in 2012.
“First President to have ever a) caused a Downgrade b) caused a Default.”
The CRAs are playing TeaBagistan and the Boehner-ettes like fiddles.
http://krunchd.com/beersmightharm
ENEN
Yes because they are the ones who buy the credit ratings.
Nothing happened to Japanese interest rates when they got a downgrade, so there’s no reason to be frightened by a downgrade to US debt either. And if there is a reason to be worried, it is NO WHERE NEAR as frightening as what a default might entail.
More horseshit being fed by the Obama Administration, trying desperately to scare up support for slashing the welfare state.
They are NOT more concerned about a downgrade. But they sure want us to believe that! They want us to be yelling, “do what Standard and Poors says!” rather than “Hey, asshole, jus use coin seigniorage or the 14th amendment to get around congress.”
This is a fucking fraud.
jane (and scarecrow), see warren mosler on the economics (The danger is from the spending cuts, not the potential downgrade)
either it’s all politics or the administration (and supporters) are economic idiots.
ok, maybe it’s both.
Wouldn’t that contradict their mission statements of obfuscation and plunder?
Okay, Mr. President, by not sending the Justice Department into the offices of Standard & Poor, Moody’s and other corporate and government rating agencies for their criminal complicity in giving shit securities triple A designations for lucrative bribes, you let that sophisticated protection racket remain free to now extort the nation you swore to protect from all terrorism.
Now pick up that phone and call your attorney general and order Holder to arrest every gdamn one of those blackmailers for bribary, extortion and financial fraud, convict them and send them to Gitmo to take the place of the lesser terrorists you have no need to keep locked up anymore…
The real issue here is managing a transformation from the debt dollar as world reserve currency to a dollar that serves the needs of Americans first and minimizing the disruption on average Americans that such a transformation necessarily entails instead of minimizing the disruption on the financial sector at the expense of the rest of us. Again.
The basis for the dollar has changed several times in its history and is changing and will change again in the future. This is not a catastrophe, not unless you’re a bank on Wall Street and would be wiped out if the money markets crashed.
I’ll take that pain to watch the bankster parasites fall from the host.
Scarecrow and Jane, I think this might be one of the most important posts of all time. O.M.G. if this can not resurrect a sense of justice, then justice is dead. Frankly, I would think an honest credit rating agency would have downgraded the US long ago based on simply the utter stupidity and corruption rampant in the government.
Here, take this stick and poke her. My arm’s getting tired and Lady Justice hasn’t even twitched in over a year now.
I’m totally out of my depth in all of this, but my spongelike brain is grasping at another factor raised by an economist on the worthy Amy Goodman’s Thursday show – that there is a much larger borrowee than China in the mixture (China has 10%) and that is what is happening between megacorporations and the Federal Government where borrowing is of total advantage to corporations – that was the gist of the comment on Democracy Now.
Never mind, I think Frank33 has answered – there’s such a gamble on, seems like that’s where the two come together, sort of like what was going on with mortgages only now with the debt. This is crazy stuff.
Does this figure in at all, and if so, how? (Don’t feel you have to answer if this is simply a display of ignorance on my part. I am totally fine with a putdown.)
Booyah Jim Cramer (see half way through.)
http://www.businessinsider.com/meet-the-sp-executive-who-will-downgrade-us-debt-2011-7
http://krunchd.com/beersmightharm
http://krunchd.com/hiredtodoajob
ENEN
Selise, see the companion post. Warren Mosler is one of those I cite.
Neither of the two (Hah!) political parties has really thought this through, AitchD.
First the people will be stunned … and then they will become angry, very angry and with good reason.
Once the emotional disbelief has subsided, something else will take its place.
And, while the “leadership” clearly has not been thinking about this, millions of others have, for it will impact THEIR lives very seriously indeed.
And then, that impact will spread to those who would have been paid with money once the Social Security checkes were cashed …
The “leadership” hasn’t the vaguest notion of what people are feeling.
And that reality is ignored at the dire peril of everything which the elites believe … matters.
The money-jig is up, even if those with too much of it do not or cannot understand.
People are weary of having their lives toyed with, and will tolerate no further destruction of their lives or possibilities that a few may strut around like kings, beyond the law and beyond reason.
Even in deliberately “dumbed-down” America.
DW
Very sorry. That comment got all mashed. Please ignore
Oh, you fixed it! Thank you so much.
Last time I saw Maher on TLW with Larry O’Donnell, he actually criticized Obama. Hope springs eternal.
The problem is, as I see it, the Obama Administration is a participant in this extortion.
S&P’s threats just help to heighten the sense of crisis which the Obama thugs depend on to push through draconian cuts to the welfare state.
If anyone should be shipped off to Guantanamo, it should be the Obama thugs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZtyvlzVm7Y
that was beowulf’s idea! (and as far as anyone i know of can tell, much better than the 14th amendment). beowulf talked it up in the comments here last year and then wrote a diary in january. it’s been pushed by others since then (most notably by lets’ but also wigwam and quite a few others including scott fullwiler and warren mosler)… only now has it broken into the establishment press (jack balkin at cnn) although it’s all over the intertoobz. so i guess now delong (a self-described neoliberal) can talk about it safely although he doesn’t link to the original (and brilliant) source:
http://my.firedoglake.com/beowulf/2011/01/03/coin-seigniorage-and-the-irrelevance-of-the-debt-limit/
nor any of the actually progressive economists who’ve been explaining the how this would work, for example:
http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/07/qe3-treasury-stylego-around-not-over.html
p.s. here’s the delong link:
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/07/the-presidents-obligation-to-take-care-that-the-laws-be-faithfully-executed-requires-him-to-start-minting-large-denomination.html
There are always unintended consequences of war and class war. Give credit to Kritter Eric Cantor who wants to downgrade US Bonds from AAA to FFF. Cantor’s own Congressional District has already been downgraded! Well Played TeaBaggers!
I myself have downgraded Moody’s to FFFUUU. But Moody’s is doubling down with Kritter Cantor. Moody’s is threatening 5 states, AAA or Catfood. Moody’s are making terror threats and taking hostages. Alert Homeland Security.
I’m ignoranter than juiiania pretends to be, so I’ll say I guess most SS checks are electronic transfers as direct deposit into personal bank checking/savings accounts. Ordinarily, it’s the banks who would be dependent on those deposits since they get the lump sum while the account holder would draw down over a week’s or a month’s time.
So, I’m beginning to understand why banks have been hoarding their cash & deposits instead of lending any of it. They’re somewhat prepared for an abrupt and huge shortfall.
This is a very important post, indeed.
I admit to being totally out of my depth on the economics stuff too, which is why I asked Scarecrow for help.
I can spot a shakedown, though.
This is one criminal and outrageous circle jerk.
Corporate-owned congress deregulates the financial industry; Wall Street creates worthless ‘instruments’ on which they make billions based largely on AAA ratings given by S&P (who gets its $$ from Wall Street and who knew they were toxic crap);
S&P overnight devalues the instruments to junk status, causing the economy to collapse; taxpayer trillion $$ bailout goes to banks and Wall Street; executive Big Money Boyz’s bonuses soar;
Dodd Frank is steadily neutered by corporate-owned congress; S&P feeling the heat and going on the defensive by taking the debt ceiling talks hostage so that they survive intact and deliver our SS $$$ to Wall Street;
Wall Street pours more $$ into corporate-owned congress.
You couldn’t design a more corrupt and damaging system if you TRIED
That’s the way they force the fire sale of state assets. Which is one of the reasons that the PE groups and banks are hoarding cash.
Thank John Adams
We need some kind of reverse jail. Everybody in charge gets locked up, and everybody in jail for smoking pot or something silly like telling the truth gets let out.
I remember, it was a great post.
i’m sorry scarecrow, i missed the companion post… even after looking again. maybe i’m blind? could you give me a pointer? thanks!
What algorithm did S&P and the other credit rating agencies use to rate junk mortgages AAA prior to 2008?
Any analysis of this algorithm will show that they were acting in bad faith.
For that matter how were America’s finest MBA programs teaching students to rate CDO’s or how did they explain to their students how “housing prices never go down” (even while Bush created no jobs and wages were flat)?
Terrorism defined: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes – sounds like what S&P is doing now ( from 2008, we know S&P can do more damage to America than Al-Qaeda).
Here’s scarecrow’s follow-up post:
http://my.firedoglake.com/scarecrow/2011/07/28/what-is-sps-ideological-agenda-because-it-aint-about-default-risk-or-economics/
We’ll have it on the front page in a bit.
…or we could let out someone bidding at a land auction to rescue public property from the oil barons. Storm the fucking Bastille.
beowulf is brilliant!
(i wasn’t around then so had to read later… )
thank you!
That’s an extremely important link. S&P downgrades US, and Moody’s downgrades state and local governments. Looks to me like they’ve just identified themselves as systemically risky and important financial entities.
Companion post, just went up.
http://my.firedoglake.com/scarecrow/2011/07/28/what-is-sps-ideological-agenda-because-it-aint-about-default-risk-or-economics/
This is what journalism looks like. Excellent work.
Yes, the banks are covering their ass ..ets.
But it has not all been “electrified” yet.
Beyond the banks, AitchD (yes, there is a world, out “there”, beyond the TBTF) the cash drawn from the banks would go for frivolous things like food, rent, mortgage payments and so forth — and it is not merely the “old” who will suffer, Social Security monies to survivors and dependents moves smartly beyond just the “old”, the halting, and the lame.
DW
Also, keep in mind, I could have used all MMT cites,, but I wanted to show broad consensus from even the great unwashed.
Thanks, Jane, I was thinking I’d fallen into a rabbit hole and slipped into another demension devoid of Scarecrow and his post.
DW
Thank you ironcomments.
ditto that!
And I add you, powwow, Jane and Scarecrow into that as well.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_18/b4226050994254.htm
Yes!
So, my next question.
Does the S & P campaign dollars web diagram come out as the back-up post to this timeline?
;)
More likely there is not a huge demand for loans, because companies who might otherwise borrow to expand don’t see enough customers willing to spend more money. It’s the demand. People lost trillions in wealth when the housing bubble burst, and the stimulus provided only a small fraction of what was lost. People have to rebuild their savings and they have to worry about jobs, insurance, gas prices, etc. It’s the demand. Extra Deficits were the main thing holding up the economy, and the extra spending is phasing out, plus the stats are cutting back. Huge hits to a weak economy.
The 14th amendment approach is a legal crock.
Amanda Terkel is great.
Michael Gerson, closet Teabagger, not so much.
And Pixie Dust would be subsidized by the Government and unicorns would provide public transportation to the New American Foundation.
Look at every investment bubble over the last 40 years, the CRA’s have been gaming the system for some time.
LOL! it’s not the person hygiene of “the great unwashed” that bothers me… it’s when they get it wrong and we progressives don’t know different. (i mean, how are we to know that krugman and delong may be nice guys but they are not good sources for macroeconomics?)
progressive economists for political progressives!
not some lame ass, faux center, deficit dove nonsense.
thanks! (for the post and the link)
Excellent work, Jane and Scarecrow!
agree. it’s the state and local gov downgrades that are dangerous (absent fed revenue sharing, a la nixon). like us, they are currency users.
Great article Jane. Keep it up. Great comments too. We really are facing the takeover by fascist elements.
Andrea Mitchell was reporting that indeed Obama people called in S&P to issue the threats.
And what can be more telling than Obama’s words. (my bold)
Wonderful, excellent journalism.
There’s also this perspective:
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/28/richard_wolff_debt_showdown_is_political
Great work here!
I remember Al Franken proposing legislation on this issue that was rejected (by the White House). Franken used to do the rounds on cable news to discuss this issue and others. It seems like he has been sent to political Siberia, perhaps, for having the audacity to question these CRAs…?
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks, Jane and Scarecrow! Phenomenal investigative piece. Re-posted everywhere I could. The only analysis so far that has made sense of every aspect of this manufactured crisis – the politics, the pandering, the silence of certain market players, etc. I share the reaction with several fellow posters here that, despite being angry, at least now my brain feels more peaceful with a better sense of why this was all happening.
That is absolutely stunning.
Jane, how many TeeVee shows can you be on tonight? The corporate media won’t touch this.
I think they may have thought they could “manage” the situation, just like they thought they could “manage” working with the GOP to force Democrats into accepting Social Security and Medicare cuts.
But it’s like trying to “manage” a controlled fire by handing a box of matches to a pack of arsonists. Their agendas are much bigger than any goal you might share at the moment, and you are handing them the power to take you down. And there’s nothing you can do to stop them if they decide to go down that road, because the situation will quickly be out of your control.
That’s really what it’s all about, isn’t it? Exactly where do S&P derive their credentials for determining the best economic approach to governing a country? S&P is nothing more than a group of lackeys paid to give the answer their clients want. So who’s their client–the Repubs or Obama?
Yes. I do fear the situation has progressed beyond the point of no return…To have the President say we don’t have a AAA political system is chilling.
On a micro micro level. My friend a Rand far right winger of many years and Tea Bagger called last evening to say. “They have gone crazy and are selling off the country.” One can hope for such death bed conversions of many more.
No, I don’t think they’re doing this because of liability for the mortgaga crisis. Who are they afraid of, Obama and Holder, PLEASE!!!! No, this is once again about the same masters they served in the mortgage fraud scheme, WALL STREET BANKSTERS! Who has the most to lose in this whole fiasco, that’s right, the WALL STREET BANKSTERS! They’re the reason, plain and simple.
No. Dodd-Frank makes them liable in civil suits. That’s what they are afraid of. Anyone who lost money based on their ratings would not have to prove malice, just that they knew better. Which is a whole lot lower bar to clear.
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-approval-numbers-hit-time-low-185402373.html
not low enough!
“The White House clearly began to worry about the political implications of what S&P might do. Emails from both Treasury and S&P were provided to the House Financial Services committee earlier this week, showing that in March S&P and Treasury officials began coordinating discussions of the administration’s budget strategy before the S&P committee met to discuss the US credit rating.
But White House officials weren’t the only ones trying to work the refs. On March 14 Congressional Republicans stage their first challenge to 2010′s Dodd-Frank financial regulation reforms — an attempt to repeal the provision exposing credit rating agencies to the legal liability they were chafing to escape from.”
The UNI-party at work for America. The two-party system, the illusion of democracy.
Corporations are driven by 1 thing more profits.
NAFTA help Wall Street rape the middle class for years.
Now Wall Street needs something else to rape, now Wall Street wants to rape state govts. to make more profits.
Capitalism must have controls,
USA must get some type of campaign finance reform.
Obama, Romney, Bachman, Perry, are not going to raise a Billion dollars off the middle class.
Lincoln and other presidents knew it would come a day, when USA corporations would put profits before USA citizens, Before the USA itself.
Why does the FEDERAL RESERVE exist?
Why does the USA borrow money from banks in 2011?
S&P is own by Wall Street banks, so their agenda is of course anti USA.
Clinton, Bush, and OBAMA are all Wall Street Mascots.
Clinton? presidency got saved, because he rape the USA middle class with NAFTA.
Jane and Scarecrow.. Thank-you for putting it all out so clearly.. thank-you both twice.. :) xox
I also shared.. :)
Hits the nail on the head.
Rating agencies went along with Wall St. manipulators to screw up mortgages.
After the crash the government responded with regulations.
S&P says they won’t be regulated, so they threaten the government with lowered ratings on Treasury bonds.
Government has to respond NOW or allow the Rich to own us all.
Nice rating agency ya got there. Be a shame if something happened to it.
At the tail end of the crash of ’08 a lot of banks were refusing regular lines of credit to long-time customers who had good businesses which had been running for a hundred years. They just shut them down for no good reason and said they were ‘risky’.
Now we have S&P saying the government is a ‘risky’ bet, so their bonds must pay higher rates. Forcing Americans to pay even more on interest doesn’t cut our debt level and it doesn’t make the economy go better.
No, Republicans are working their side of the street since Citizens United (or before) to ensure every effort to crush the economy is used. And some voters still blame Obama…incredible.
Mr. Obama has more to worry about than be tagged with presiding over a US debt downgrade. He is also presiding over the demise of the rule of law and making permanent a host of legal atrocities that CheneyBush may have instigated, but which Mr. Obama has adopted and purveyed with a convert’s fervor.
And for all you folks with long memories, Standard and Poors is a division of McGraw-Hill!!!! Which is ‘connected’ — http://www.trelease-on-reading.com/whatsnu_bush-mcgraw.html. (sorry, I can’t get the linky thing to work, nor preview)
Thanks Jackie! Good to see you.
As for Mr. Obama telling his SEC to “take the gloves off”, it’s not much of a threat. Mr. Obama has never been willing to act aggressively to oppose major corporate excesses, fraud and criminal behavior. He usually supports it.
When the SEC fully ramps up and starts obtaining indictments, when it drags in corporate CEO’s and CFO’s to help the SEC with its inquiries, S&P and the rest of Wall Street might start noticing it. That would lead to multiple rounds of threat-negotiations. Mr. Obama’s track record suggests he would lose each of those faster than the bets a junky makes at the track by throwing darts at a list of horses.
S&P and its corporate backers regard Mr. Obama as the guy holding towels while the harem bathes. Having been neutered by his personality, his closest staff, and his need for corporate re-election cash, he’s not much of a threat. He might drop a political towel, but he’s not going to turn the harem owner into a cuckold any more than he will prosecute and obtain convictions against S&P, Goldman or Citi.
I wasn’t sure where to get into the comments, so I’m replying to you, Jane, By the way, I always enjoy you on the talk shows, you do not let them get away with much nonsense.
Thank you for the email to add my name to the S&P’s petition and for your illuminating article.
You mentioned Tim Geithner, and relevant to the issue you bring up, since S&P is partly to blame for the 2008 meltdown, but wants no part of the blame, and when the ratings agencies took the tactic of saying that their ratings were just opinions, did you also know that when Geithner was NY Fed President, he gave Goldman Sachs, a $30 billion almost interest-free loan(.01% that Goldman paid to borrow taxpayer money while regular folks missing a few payments on their mortgage put it on their credit cards at a 25% interest rate), as part of an $80 billion secret float to favored banks in 2008. Was Obama aware of this deceit when appointing Geithner as Treasury Secretary?
If anyone is interested I learned that information from The Progressive Populist newspaper, July 1/15, 2011, issue, and it also appeared at the HuffingtonPost.com. It was written by Truthdig’s Robert Scheer and entitled “Geithner and Goldman, Thick as Thieves.” And here Geithner is again bowing to the whims of folks on Wall street.
Great articler Jane, keep up the good work!
Jane you it a bulls eye, you must be a psycic or something like that.
Well put, let these slyme ball’s squirm out of this one.
I allways figured the housing colapse was an inside job, between government and wall street!
Brilliant work, Jane! (Thanks also to Scarecrow!) The corruption is everywhere, but perhaps that will be its downfall. At the end of the day, the truth will out.
Gawd. How’s that workin’ out for ya Barry?
Thanks for posting this again. I was out of town when this was put up originally.
Jane and Scarecrow, YOU ROCK!
There is no question left in anyone’s mind that the every financial entity in this country is corrupt and helped to be corrupt by each other!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFGZufk4HFs
This downgrade is really shifty. I’ll have more soon.
Words Fail.
We just ate a giant austerity bullet so this allegedly wouldn’t happen.
Now it’s happened.
It’s officially crazytime.
I believe what we are seeing is an economic coup d’etat.
You know, I can see how they are doing this. Of course he has really put himself in harms way each time he falls on the fake sword. It is not going to be very hard for S&P to usher him out the door at this point.
Wow. Every day a new major development. Never seen this in real time. Say what you want, but death spirals are oddly captivating, even if this one is ours…
Please don’t stay seated ’til the ride comes to a full stop!
S&P is owned by Mcgraw-Hill which in turn has a big stock ownership by the Bush family per Tarplin’s unauthorized biography of bush the elder
LOL! Yeah, no wonder the repugs have thrown out so many bills to try to take down Dodd-Frank. They are doing their best to help out the cause.
They write the History and Science books for school kids too!
S&P’s actions should be considered treason. Their key employees and senior managers who are behind this false downgrade should be arrest, tried for treason, and (fill in the blank here with appropriate punishment).
As long as it’s convenient for these bastards to BE manipulated by S & P’s, don’t expect changes. I’ve been working in the Caribbean for the last 4 years, and you would be amazed at how the press there, handmaiden to these neoliberal hellions, often prints S & P’s national credit reports as if they were gospel.
Excuse me, but the world seems like SUCH an intolerable sh*thole tonight; I’m much more optimistic early in the morning. :)
will this be a gift to the banks as interest payments on variable and fixed mortgages rise?? smells like classic shock doctrine by the Chicago Boys -Friedman and Hayek or maaybe a simple rovian attack -he has been quiet for a while never a good thing
One word: Jeb
I’ll raise you a word: Petraeus.
I’ll raise ya: 2012
I’ll bet a bunch of “investors” are screaming at their brokers too..WTF!!!! LOL
Heads must roll. Death to the ancient regime.
LOL!
I say Petraeus because he can sincerely quit CIA, and be all “Crisis of leadership – my country needs me.” All the teahadists can take Petraeus that can’t take Romney, AND it has the added advantage of knife-twisting the Keynan Socialist but the time honored tradition of a-quittin’.
Anyways back to the actual topic; this is insane. I figured we were in for hard times but this monkey wrench puts it in warp drive.
Goolsbee slipping out the door and Obama begging Geithner to stay while the market crashes is just too much. No wonder they are bashing the Progressives. Oh! Look over there at those DFH that won’t talk up Obama and say what a heck of a job he’s doing.
Totally agree!!
Think Boner’s gonna be trumpeting the “I got 98% of what I wanted” line anytime soon?
‘Course, maybe this *was* part of the 98%….
Its done… downgrade threat was just followed through. And the beat goes on…
Hope this somehow ensnares the fuckers!!
Jane,see if you can find out from your sources, about a meeting that took place behind close doors sometime aruond 2003/2004 on Wall Street between the top bankers, the Feds(Mr.Paulson) and some other big s.o.b’s. from Wall Street to creat a vehicle to make tons of money from the Federal Government and the poor uninformed tax payer. And you are 110% right this was all manipulated. I think some of the whistle blowers met with some kind of demize!
Harry’s got math chops, as well. I saw him as a witness in the Madoff hearings and he seems to be on very solid ground with financial numbers.
The capitalist ship is sinking faster than even I could have predicted.
I missed most of the news today, but has Bernanke been shuffled out to say anything?
I want to know where Harold McGraw (CEO of McGraw-Hill, owners of S&P) and Jack Callahan (CFO for McGraw-Hill) are right fucking now!
He his a puppet, someone pulls his strings!
they made big $$$$$ from No Child Left Behind. they also rolled the honorable Ted Kennedy when it was a big rip off. republicans love govt when they loot it thru contracts-that’s the free market in action!!!
JUST got to the diary up to Timeline Of Events.
Will say right now, here’s what I smell just from the opening of SC n Mz. Hamsher’s diary . . . it’s been simmering in me for a while.
IMF.
Goal is to downgrade and break USA completely, make it beholden to IMF bailouts, just like the other broken countries that litter the globe.
It’s a global corporate effort . . . n it’s here and it’s going for our throats to wrap up all the efforts of the past 30 years or more here in USA.
Only the rich elites and the dirt poor will survive, n eugenics is well at hand with the destruction of the New Deal/Great Society.
Class war at it’s worst, and at its finest implementation.
Now, to the rest of the diary and the comments . . . whew . . . .
Here is S&Ps statement: http://business.financialpost.com/2011/08/05/full-text-the-sp-statement-on-lowering-the-u-s-credit-rating/
Jane you and Scarecrow may want to check out what has happened in Europe in relation to Standards and Poor’s. After scanning over your article, I saw you were just talking about the US and I recalled Merkel being very upset with S&P. Although the link I am giving you is not what a read, you can get the gist of things. The article is called “God is a US rating Agency”. In the article you will see they talk about S&P not wanting banks, insurance companies and pension funds involved in the Greek bailout. Instead, they want to continue to transfer taxpayers’ money through Athens to the financial sector.
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1022677.shtml
I’m guessing that the “math error” in question has to do with the Bush/Obama Tax Cuts – The Obama admin said to take them out, but the S&P wasn’t convinced that they’d ever expire despite what was said.
The Obama administration and the Democrats themselves played this up ever since the Catfood Commission, saying that austerity is such a big deal that we have to sacrifice Social Security to it…well, the Obama administration sowed the wind and now they’re reaping the whirlwind as a result.
Here is a link to the S&P methodology:
Yes, we had links to the IMF on here today. I can’t remember the thread or who placed them up, but it was a real eye opener!
I’ll go back and search. It had the G-20′s ten commandments in it.
Hard to argue with, really. Thanks for posting.
DeLong just put a classic post title, “Which Has a Higher Rating, The USA or S and P?”
This is getting interesting…
If I were Obama I would have the DOJ request a meeting with Standard & Poors CEO to discuss how how they gave triple a ratings to junk assets. That would stop this downgrade threat right away.
John Harwood on Rachel saying that Obama contributed this by saying that the US has a AAA financial system but does not have a AAA political system.
I wanna be an “expert” when I grow up so I too can say really stupid shit (which I do alla time) but also get paid mega-bucks for doing so….
should have done that many weeks ago.
probably made too much sense at the time.
Here we go! h/t: spanishinquistion
Number 5 is a popout:
http://blog-imfdirect.imf.org/2010/06/24/ten-commandments-for-fiscal-adjustment-in-advanced-economies/
RICO act…they are all racketeers,no different than the Cosa Nostra
New World Order is not a myth or conspiracy “theory”.
Yes, yes, and YES! Racketeering. Throw Breach of Fiduciary Duty in there for some extra ammo.
Thank YOU! This explains all the sudden insider knowledge and sell off of the market the past two days.
where did it all start? who planned this step by step smash and grab?who benefits the most? banks,stock holders ,inside traders?
It’s kind of funny now that if Holder (or anyone in the federal government) announced an investigation into S&P’s duplicity in rating junk AAA+ that screams of political retribution would be heard round the land.
“Obama’s DOJ is just doing this because S&P lowered their bond rating.”
Turn it into just another political fight of he said/he said instead of a criminal matter.
Yeah, that is kind of funny….
treble damages
Not to worry. The President has pivoted to Jobs.
all of them. You have to understand that most of the players are related in some way. In fact, the halls of our government are filled with family members and best buds going all the way back to Nixon days.
Ignore the crazy stuff…scroll down and look at the quotes:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Illuminati/quotes_on_the_new_world_order.htm
Even in a negative sum game, there are still winners.
It seems like no one is certain the effect this will have. It may not have much of an effect after a few weeks or quite a large one. Yes, the S&P is corrupt, but unfortunately it’s not in our hands. Those with the power (money) may believe in it enough that it’ll f#ck us over, or they’ll take the chance to rob us even more. The Socialist for the Rich president worries about them. They’re playing damage control now because they have no choice. S&P may have made some error, but if that “error” is not including the end of the Bush tax cuts that they promise, I think S&P made a proper call there. The center-right neoliberal president is not going to let those expire during his election campaign as he runs to the right to appeal to moderate Republicans and the mythical fiscal conservative independents.
See! We have more in common with Italy than we thought. I said we should be watching what they do in Greece because the show would be in theater near you.
The SP only matters if you need to issue debt. If you are constantly borrow without any forseeable way to pay it back other than to print money, then yes, you present more risk and would need to be charged a higher interest rate.
And given what has happened over the past couple months, tell me with a straight face that your confidence was not shaken over how the nation handles its national debt.
The Aspens are joined at the root.
i know that
the incest is remarkable in the media too….levels of nepotism,a cadre of possibly 5,000 families,NY,DC,Dallas mebbe LA
I see a QE-3 coming up. More money for the banks immediately. WE might even get to see Bernanke on his knees again.
LOL! OMG! Yes, they are.
Actually, I think S&P nailed it with their statement. The U.S. can’t cut “entitlements” (and in my opinion, should not), and it can’t “raise revenues” because of the Republicans, so the government is stalemated. This is going to blow the economy like nothing else possibly could. A finger is being pointed (flipped) at the TeaPartiers and I seriously doubt that they are going to be able to avoid the ire of the middle class (that sucking sound is the MC disappearing into the hole of impoverishment). And the lower middle class is armed–to the teeth. We live in interesting times.
The really sad part is this wouldn’t have happened if the debt ceiling had been cleanly raised.
I wonder if they shouldn’t call a halt to US market trades for Monday.
The amount that would, by law, have to move out of non AAA rated bonds has to be mind boggling, and the multiples of that even bogglier.
Great work Jane and Scarecrow.
It’s a hostile corporate takeover of USA Inc.
Which cap is the pea under?
Coup D’Etat or Coup de Grace…or something like that…
People here shouldn’t be that surprised by what the S&P did – when you accept the narrative that we need austerity to the point that we must run over some sacred cows on the third rail, then you will be judged on how austere you are. IMF/G20 and all the political powers that be literally called austerity their messianic mission, so this is a natural result of that.
The problem is that the narrative has been accepted, not those who are scoring the game based on the accepted narrative.
That would normally be a good idea. I think since we are now connected globally it won’t make much difference other than slowing down the run on T-Notes. Which is horribly scarey due to all the international buyers.
Great work. Funny.
True!
I went back to this morning’s thread and pulled your link. I gave you the hat tip. I thought it was most appropriate for this discussion.
None of them.
Weren’t we supposed to eat our peas?
Other than that I think the Democrats have shown themselves all too willing to cut Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, I think S&P scored the game pretty well given the rulebook that Obama and the world PTB gave with their G20 Austerity Pledge, IMF Messianic Austerity Guide, etc.
That’s a very interesting question – would trade triggers freeze the market? Couldn’t we end up in a situation where there is no market, much like what happened with Collateralized Debt Obligations a few years ago…on one hand it’s bad for the market to drop like a rock, but on the other hand it’s bad if there’s no market at all.
this is a very interesting series of reports – first from jhampsher and, separately, scarecrow (who i think is a retired doj lawyer),
and then conjointly.
the analogy that occurs to me out-of-hand is with the reagan flirtation with iran in 1980. while at first i thought the white house could be behind this, now i suspect the wh was reacting to an initiative they did not initiate.
it is too, too bad that barack obama only knows how to operate in the close-up environment of political intrigue; that he always tries to negotiate a way around this intrigue (medical insurance); and that he always (up thru the present), fails at his negotiations.
is it too soon to begin printing bumper stickers saying:
“some village in chicago has lost its idiot savant?”
Bill Maher just asked Christine Romer, “just how fucked are we?” and she said, “Pretty darned fucked”…or something like that. LOL
Nope we are supposed to just drink pee… A lot cheaper than peas..
707!
First of all everybody and every organization has some kind of agenda. Be it social, economic or political. Or a combination of the three.
Second S&P (and others) have already down graded a number of other countries so why should they just stop there ?
And lastly I have a gut feeling that this is going to turn out rather anti-climactic economically speaking. The dye was cast years ago and previous administrations were only trying to delay the inevitable. Hoping that when the shit hit the fan, they would be well out of the way when it starts flying.
The world economy has been on the edge of a cliff for quite sometime and any politician who says they were not aware of this is either terribly naive or stupid of lying or all three.
im so tired of letting the chips fall where they may
Ohhhh…..chips in the carpet. Now I got get the vacuum and clean them all up.
yea,but tptb took the cream off the top
in Vegas they call it skimming…it is a felony
In Vegas yes…on Wall Street…not so much.
Paul Krugman has this to say about this:
my dads friend went to that Country club PRISON for that ,but that was 30 years ago
i love him,think …ill have to send him another candygram
Use to be What’s good for General Motors, is good for the USA.
Now its Whats good for Standard and Poors, is good for BOA and CITI and J.P. Morgan/Chase and….
Don’t blame S & P for this. The government borrows 40-cents out of every dollar it spends. Would you loan your money to it or anyone who is borrowing 40-cents out of every dollar they spend? BTW, Dodd & Frank belong in prison, and they have even less credibility than Obama.
America is broke…it’s no secret, most everyone knows it, though liberals don’t seem to realize it. Democrats have been buying votes for too long, and as Rev. Wright would say – The chickens have come home to roost.
Oh and the republican’s hands are totally clean is this as well.
OT– Algonquin elder, Grandfather William Commanda has died at the age of 97 years (CBC News, Aug. 3, 2011).
Though I’ve been turned into a complete skeptic as far as all this stuff goes, I’m in agreement with you – this could turn out to be a net plus???
The evaluation seems to have looked at both cuts and revenue increases. Do we finally have an adult in the room? Is one of the institutions actually fulfilling their role??? Is something good actually happening???
Reading this tripe it’s certainly clear America is lacking in at least one resource…
Hey when you pull your head out your ass the Firedogs might consider listening to your comments… come on now pull that ROCK back over your head….where it belongs!! ☻ ☻ ☼☼
.
It seems clear the MMT economists anyway think this is not relevant as an economic issue. But it has legs in the political world. And who knows how the financial world will interpret it. In time there is a good chance S&P will end up with egg on their collective faces. But perhaps not now.
In the meantime our “friends” all over the world as well as at home will be preparing their statements about our profligate ways and our road to bankruptcy. Obama is in even more trouble. The fear you have to have from this is Obama jumps over the fence and does something really stupid – - even for him.
He could though, if he had some courage, to invoke the 14th amendment or, better yet,mint several trillion dollar coins and simply retire some debt and have pictures of him taken burning the bonds on the WH lawn. What a shock that would be to S&P. Once he gets in the habit, perhaps he will burn all the debt. It can be done and leave the banks with reserve balances at the fed that pay .25%. What would the banks rate it then, if it is gone?
That is utter nonsense.
Thanks for the post. Paul’s analysis seems sound, for now. A thoroughly discredited institution passing judgement on another thoroughly discredited institution.
Does that somehow cancel itself out or negate the universe or something???
Heh, OT.
Anyone wanna teach an old fat guy the ins and outs of facebook???
Looking at that list of FDL “friends” from Facebook on the right hand side of my screen and Ali is someone I think I wouldn’t mind being friends with….
BS…havent you ever heard of OPM first year MBA
Maybe, but I think it was,as they say, teed up all along.
a life well lived!
an answer to jhampsher’s and scarecrow’s question in the title of their essay:
yes, of course, and yes, almost certainly.
yes, are there grand jury hearings we have not yet heard about?
yes, do the corporate lawyers at S@P’s believe that the obama admin is so weak now that they can arrange a doj deal?
or that a congressional “pardon”, similar to the telecom pardons, “can be obtained”, i.e., has been promised by the republicans in the house.
let’s see what obama/daschle propose – i’m betting on some kind of “pardon”.
of course, this SHOULD backfire VERY BADLY on s@p’s.
their leaders and lawyers should end up paying a huge price, but we are in obama/daschle land where no activity bad for the nation is ever roundly challenged and savaged by democratic “leaders”.
somebody said idiot savant!
Well Jane, I can’t say I agree with you here, although everything you just stated may well be true. I do believe however, that S&P has a point:
“The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America’s governance and policy making becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed.”
The credit agencies rate our ability to pay debt but they also rate our ability to pay our debts in the future. Considering the fiasco of this debt ceiling debacle, one definitely has to question what will happen with future debt ceiling debates. McConnell has even stated that what just happened is a template for any future fights with the debt ceiling and God knows what else.
So Jane, do you really, truly, believe that S&P does not have any legitimate reasoning for their downgrade? I believe they do and wouldn’t be surprised if the other rating agencies follow suit.
BWAHahahahahahahaha
back to your regularly scheduled programs
Hmm, yes our government is dysfuntional and that is a concern in so many areas, including the promises made to all Americans in the safety net. Imagine, SSMM are up for gutting but you dare not increase taxes. I think there’s a man over there with a gun.
Nate Silver tweets: “France has ~3x the default risk of United States. But S&P rates them AAA.”
“Credit default swap prices suggest investors think France has ~3x the default risk of United States. But S&P rates them AAA.”
“In 2009, S&P maintained our AAA rating, projecting debt-to-GDP ratio of 90% (http://t.co/9rq5sR9 ). Now they project ~75% but lowered it.”
“After U.S. downgrade, no country with a presidential system has a AAA rating.”
http://twitter.com/#!/fivethirtyeight
A resounding vote of confidence that I can well understand. Still, there is probably room in gitmo for these financial terrorists. Waterboarding may be warranted in an extreme case like this.
Why now though??
Why didn’t they say anything when they extended the Bush tax cuts and added more to the Deficit than this bill, even with Super Congress II cuts, will cut??
Can’t you at least acknowledge the possibility that the timing is fishy given it’s failure to say or do much in the past and the real likelihood that they may be facing legal trouble over their ratings of junk that lead to the crash of 2008?
It does have an air of legitimacy to it, but when you look at past actions and statements (or lack thereof), IMO it’s not unfair to question the timing.
Those kinds of inconsistencies will lead to a loss of credibility to S&P. That’s nice.
Twice now at FDL I have seen the power and value of a simple timeline.
And this, Like Bradley Manning, is just the tip of an iceberg encrusted mammoth worm factory.
And to think that if the damned Redcoats would have dug in and fought at Fort Vancouver, I would be Canadian.
it is all such utter BULLSHITTE
“The credit agencies rate our ability to pay debt but they also rate our ability to pay our debts in the future.”
___
Explain to me precisely why, in the wake of the AAA ratings accorded the Mount Everest of worthless subprime securities, I should have one molecule of respect for the CRAs’ judgments?
:-)
Yes, it is and infuriating. The leader of the free world should show his outrage at this and take whatever action he can to neutralize them. But, alas, it has to be bi partisan.
Barney Frank says Standard and Poor is the same people who sold junk bonds
He’s pivoted to “jobs,” now, anyway.
My town was built on junk bonds.
succinct
This report is turning out to be like a mirror. You see what you want to see.
Any objective reading of the report would acknowledge that the report spreads the blame and the solutions all around. But, as usual, no one wants their sacred cow touched.
Hence; the downgrade, which rightly noted that neither side is going to give up their sacred cows and so the predictable result is no REAL action until disaster is at the door step.
A predictable charade of smoke and mirrors and bluster and baloney will take the place of any real, effective fixes.
Like the mortgage market that over extended itself, didn’t change, and then crashed under the weight, the US government predictably is on the same path.
Even more odd, since over done debt was the biggest factor in the meltdown, several, including Krugman, suggest over done debt as a solution.
Kind of like Homer Simpson’s view on beer, “Beer the cause of and solution to all my problems.”
We’re just seeing the hangover now.
Exceptional reporting, Jane and Scarecrow. Keep up the excellent work, you are leaders in this fight.
I am sure you mean raising TAXES on the Rich and Corporations… right?? But hell I know better from the likes of you…
That is an amazing compilation of stupid. Please comment often, we need the laughs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShPSOQag61E&feature=related
The only effective fix we need is to eliminate that truly stupid debt ceiling law forever. The US Gov is fine, we are not going bust unless the Tea Party mandates it under another stupid non existent debt ceiling crisis and Obama accedes to the mandate.
Question: Anybody have an estimate of how many “private sector” jobs in the U.S. are the result of government spending? Just the direct result (ignoring any multiplier)? And, added to my estimate of 22 million or so federal, state, and local employees and active military.
My own household example; I work for a private not-for-profit Medicare contractor. About 95% of our funding is federal. We employ about 120 people. My wife is Director of Quality for a privately held for-profit construction and environmental remediation company. They employ several hundred directly and have dozens of subcontractors. While they do commercial sector work, the vast majority of their revenue comes from federal contracts: DoD, DOE, EPA, TSA, Corps of Engineers, etc (along with various state contracts).
So, two people who directly know perhaps at least 500 or so whose livings are provided by public money.
Did you even read what I just posted? I said everything Jane just stated could very well be true. But even if that is the case, that does not mean S&P and any other rating agency for that matter does not have a legitimate point in downgrading because of the total gridlock with Congress. They are not mutually exclusive events.
And what does Bush and his deficit have anything to do with this current issue? Bush always had the debt ceiling raised. Raising the debt ceiling was never an issue till now. Republicans are now threatening do do the opposite. It’s not just about the debt; it’s the ability to pay the debt. And if Congress continues to behave as they currently are, then the ability to pay that debt is indeed questionable.
LOL…
Who said you had to??
The CRAs have zero empirical credibility at this point.
Please check out the S&P methodology, you can find a link here, particularly paragraphs 36-41, and explain the justification for a downgrade.
Answer the question. Not with a deflective reciprocal question.
Oh, wait, I get it; their chops regarding “sovereign” debt are a different matter.
Yeah, taxes, entitlements, the whole shot. See, like most people, you looked in the mirror and saw what you wanted.
They came down hard on all sides.
“Why now though??”
I say that about the whole thing…and not just in the US, but with the world. The IMF/G20 have made this a big issue where it’s Austerity-R-Us. Why did Obama take the G20 Austerity Pledge year? Why did the G20 have an austerity pledge to begin with? Why did the IMF follow up with their “10 Commandments,” which included austerity?
I thought both in general as well as in IMF-aided countries in particular, that austerity was the wrong prescription, but it has been the World Powers-endorsed solution nonetheless…contractionary economic policy in a weak economy, just seems to be begging for trouble, but everyone has been pushing this anyway. S&P is merely following the IMF religion and holding Obama to his austerity pledge, which neither thing had to happen in the first place but the US pushed those economic practices on others as well as on us.
“Standard & Poor’s is the global leader in providing ratings and credit-related services for sovereign, sovereign-supported entities and supranational issuers.”
___
How humble of them.
Is that supposed to be some type of cogherent response or are you just as fucking dumb as your post?
CBO: Social Security Trust Fund Solvent Through 2039 |
A new report by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) reveals that the Social Security trust fund is actually in better shape than previously thought. The CBO had previously projected that the popular entitlement program was solvent until 2037. CBO now projects the trust fund won’t run out until 2039. In the ongoing battle over deficit reduction,….”
That is just wrong: there is no question we have the ability to pay the debt. What we have is a stupid law that some idiots can use to force us into default, if a feckless and incompetent chief executive allows it.
legitimate point in downgrading
=============
they have LOST all legitamcy…period
Ok since you are obviously too stupid to understand my statement, here ya go: No one stated you had to have any respect for them. Now, does that make you feel better?
are you generally this obtuse,just askin?
Chill. You still haven’t answered my question. Because, I assume, you cannot.
I repeat. WHY should I accord S&P any credibility? You stated to us WHAT they putatively do. “Stupid” as I may be, I ask WTFC?
Seamed lake a cogherent reponse to ne.
Tell that to Italy and Greece. Someday, people are not going to buy the debt. They just simply aren’t going to buy it, unless we pay a high interest rate, and maybe not even then.
They didn’t just bad mouth the struggle to raise the ceiling, the came down on the puny result.
Though, truthfully, a lot of people, including Obama (originally), just wanted the bigger debt with zero change. “Pass a clean bill,” you know? So, the downgrade would have happened without the struggle.
That may very well be true but as long as the government and companies and countries etc, etc, continue to be affiliated with their ratings systems then they will be legitimate at least in their eyes.
707!!
simply put
Shock Doctrine Disaster Capitalism….see Argentina…etc
this is just like you saying, “Well, I spent my savings, but I gave myself IOU’s for it. Now that I have run out of money, I’m going to cash in my IOU’s to pay my rent.”
Unfortunatley the existence of that trust fund does not seem to matter. SS is still on the table as “unsustainable”. That is utter nonsense. But given that they can challenge the viability of the trust fund, you have to ask why have it all. SS is now and always has been (as is proven now) a program resting on the faith of the american people. If we can do away with programs that came out of the New Deal and Great Society, even if there is a trust fund, where are we? WTF.
Jane’s up
The PMS of the S&P
http://firedoglake.com/2011/08/05/the-pms-of-sp/#comment-2408000
Italy and Greece are like the states of Indiana and NY or like you and me. They can go bust. But the federal gov CANNOT go bust. Ask me why.
No, it’s like YOU spent my insurance policy before I collected on it.
You might be taking the downgrade and rating in a way it is not meant to be.
The downgrade does not say the US won’t pay back debt. Or, that there is serious question about it.
It just means that instead of absolutely no question about it, there is a very small question.
AA+ is still saying 99% likely to pay.
And, with the spot we are in, with debt going to approach 20 trillion in ten years, I’d say, the 99% is slightly generous.
can we eliminate stupid politicians too?
But you know, how do your run out of money?
Ahhh… a tangential waft of the CDS concept.
it is the shock doctrine,i worked in the stock market for 9 years
THEY WANT THAT $$$…they will take exorbitant fees
they will truly bankrupt the country if allowed
OH, so you are saying the people you elected didn’t vote for any of the spending that pissed away the SS trust funds??
There is not even a slight chance we will lose the ability to pay our debts.
the stooopit it burns
this country is stinkin rich…it just doesnt trickle down
The only way is at the polls and the TEa Party has got to go.
It scares the hell out of me to think Wall Street may one day get to manage the SS funds. That may be the biggest reason of all to do away with the funds.
spot on comment
But the rating change will not cause rates paid to rise – the effect will be the same as the rating change for Japan – near zero change.
Not sure why the system of ratings exist for US – risk of default? If that is all, then the 14th Amendment stops any default. So no reason to change rating.
Is it risk of a change in value of the dollar – well then they have a case as increasing interest payments eating up the budget plus health inflation eating up the budget leaves only a dollar devaluation as the out. The classic sell more bonds brakes down – and MMT’s create money without issuing bonds means all see a dollar devaluation coming (no one seems to have a way to give the step by step – or a historical example – of the MMT idea that increased productivity/production and not inflation is the result of MMT money creation).
But the value of the dollar is based on more than economics – the Psychology and the decisions of the powers that be – the MOTU – also has effects.
Treasury says S&P is running a model – which sounds like a simple future years deficits projections to get if we ever get off the path to the budget being 100% health and interest- and based on my review of past S&P models, I doubt that the model is very complicated. I doubt they are trying to do a value of the dollar model. So any hearings will be embarrassing for S&P – but there is a real crime which is the obvious political dance – joining hands with the GOP – which is not permitted by the SEC. I wonder if Obama will take on Wall Street and go after S&P for its breaking S&P rules.
nah – just dreaming – carry on ….
this must NOT be allowed to happen,remember the words Robber barons
You are getting into one of those “smart guy who had it all figured out and winded up in jail,” kind of things going.
When you issue debt and no one buys it–which gives you money–and the taxes don’t cover it. By the way, the top earners, those earning a million or more a year, only made 792 billion last year, total. The deficit this year is $1.4 trillion. You figure it out. Taxes alone will not solve the problem.
Or, you could print money, and set off a lot of inflation. But, you still have to pay people in something they will accept.
People say money is an idea backed by confidence. When the confidence goes, the money is gone because it is really only paper.
So, I’d say you run out of money when no one will buy your debt and no one has any confidence in the money you are printing.
Last I heard we had 2.7 Trillion in the funds, not exactly pissed away would you say? But you know what? It’s ok with me if we just eliminated the ss taxes and wound those funds down. Seems they don’t matter to anyone anyhow.
“AA+ is still saying 99% likely to pay.”
___
LOL. I cut my white collar teeth in a forensic level radiation lab. Were I to assert “x%” of something to a client, I would have to empirically demonstrate to a host of auditors that I could minimally distinguish between “x-1 %” and “x+1 %”.
True -
but not buying debt is unlikely
and MMT money creation is alternative – albeit with value of dollar drop likely.
Rating is not that big a deal – reaction to drop of Japan’s rating was minimal.
Junk bonds baby… they’re not just for breakfast anymore.
I think Warren Mossler argues that retiring bonds is NOT creation of money. It creates reserves. Money is created when it is loaned out. He disagrees with traditional economists on that. He argues further that 16% unemployment and idle capacity means there are resources to be used and hence there will be no inflation. The brake on inflation though is tax increases, which as we see is really hard to get. To your point though, nothing is entirely risk free, IMO.
Well if I print dollars you mean people here are not going to take it? What are they going to take? And where will they get it?
I can’t agree with drop in dollar value. Rating drop is political and financial, if enough see it as risky. We will see on Monday.
I hope you are correct.
Just a small idea. When China sells us something and they get dollars, what do they do with them? They can put them in a bank or buy t bonds. t bonds pay a little interest. They could probably sell the dollars and buy Euros, but maybe not so much. In the end someone has dollars he has to do something with. So that cycle only ends if China decides not to sell to us anymore. No evidence of that just yet. BTW do you see any difference between the t bond and the dollar? They are really just demand deposits.
Here’s a story I read today and I am told it is true. Say you have to pay your taxes. So you gather up the cash, you know the long hard green. You go down to the IRS office and you count out the cash and give it to the agent. He gives you a receipt. You know what the agent does with the cash? that’s right, he shreds it. Believe that?
The drop in value of the dollar is in part an automatic response to excess supply for the demand, with only a few MOTU tools to stop it (we for years sold the “you needs reserves in your countries central bank so it should buy dollars” – but that is getting old these days).
As to “I think Warren Mossler argues that retiring bonds is NOT creation of money. It creates reserves. Money is created when it is loaned out. He disagrees with traditional economists on that. He argues further that 16% unemployment and idle capacity means there are resources to be used and hence there will be no inflation. The brake on inflation though is tax increases, which as we see is really hard to get. To your point though, nothing is entirely risk free, IMO.”
“I think Warren Mossler argues that retiring bonds is NOT creation of money. It creates reserves. Money is created when it is loaned out. He disagrees with traditional economists on that.” – Well no – Warren does not disagree with anyone – the statement is econ 101. The lack of things to track money in circulation gave us money supply counts called M1, and M3 with a fudge factor called velocity to explain why increases in quantity of money – as defined by either M1 or M3, were not causing more or less economic effects. Nothing really measured Money in circulation (your money s created when it is loaned out) as M! was not complete as transactions were done with “money” not counted in M1, and M3 had reserves which were not yet money. So Warren is saying the obvious – money in circulation is important and not created by reserves, and if he is disagreeing with anyone he is disagreeing with Greenspan and his stupid Federal Reserve Humphrey Hawkins Testimony and Report to the Congress with its M3 discussion.
Warren does “argues further that 16% unemployment and idle capacity means there are resources to be used and hence there will be no inflation” but I can find no reason to believe that and indeed many examples where unemployment and unused capacity did not prevent inflation. Indeed this is the area Warren needs to present a bit more.
We agree there is risk – and that MMT says don’t worry about revenue/expense imbalance risk.
The key here is the violation of S&P rules – and will Obama dare to take on Wall Street (answer is “no” with reason “Obama is an adult that does not hold grudges” – now throwing up ….
plus the fact interest rates will not change – the Japanese example will be what happens to the US.
They use the dollars to buy the world – they are buying US companies, the oil in Sudan and Nigeria, mines in Australia, buying the intellectual property they are not stealing or are receiving via our companies giving it away is response to the Chinese demand they give it up if they want access to China’s cheap labor. Under Bush a complete factory in Indiana was torn down with each piece numbered so it could be rebuilt in China.
They do not need to buy T bills – and indeed their purchases are not that big.
This the thanks Obama and the Dems get for bending over for Wall st..Wall st used them and is now throwing them to the curb….Dodd Frank bill is weak and the pigs are still aquealing! Disgusting
Stupid is when the government gives citizens a tax cut, and citizens believe that adds to the deficit … Stupid is the government taking in $180-billion a month, then borrowing $120-billion a month so it can spend $300-billion a month.
we all have my subprime loan now.
Decodify all the CRAs… and prosecute.
Too bad PlaceHolder and his boss aren’t interested in accountability. But then, we saw Obama’s pro-Wall Street, bailout vote before he was even elected.
This is where we have been heading since the repugs began to fight the debt ceiling increase. This is part of the game. I have said all along that my sub prime loan felt like a dark force behind it, a very large, criminal element that our government would not stop, despite repeated complaints from the millions who lost their homes. The lies were constant, the theft complete, and no one in our government stopped them.
Then we got a new leader and this leader after much rhetoric to the contrary colluded, refused to hold them accountable and the theft continued. I have said all along, this has been an act of terrorism. This has been part of a plan, to gut the US, economically. I think that these economic terrorists hold the purse strings of our banks, I think they are using our greediest sickest, most ignorant to promote policies that benefit them while at the same time gutting the country. The rich in a treasonous twist have happily given away the country for their own security. Obama wasn’t very good at 11th dimensional chess, but some of us little people knew.
yes…
the downgrade from the same folks who ‘missed’ the mortgage crisis and continually rated shit-worthless bonds as AAA… suddenly they ‘see’ the poor state of government finances (whether it be Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and now the US…)
what’s breath-taking is (and the point I, and many others, raised): we bailed out the banks and saddled the taxpayers (i.e., the ‘government’) with trillions of dollars of debt (privatize the profits and socialize the losses) and now, those same banks and rating agencies are crying: ‘look! look at all the debt these governments have taken on!!!’ (what about those bailouts???) ‘oh! it’s NOT that! it’s all the social programs and unemployment benefits and insurance and all those goody-goody liberal social safety nets! these people need to stand on their own and not come begging to the government when things don’t turn out the way they want and times get hard…’
(um, but what about the bailouts)
‘oh – that was different… that was US’