We’ve moved over to Part II now, so please join us
The Senate vote for cloture on the Reid bill is scheduled for 1am on Sunday morning. The House will vote on the Reid bill at 2:30 today, prior to the Senate vote. It will be on the suspension calendar which means that it can have no amendments and would need 2/3 vote to pass.
Liveblog
4:21: Durbin objects to the unanimous consent to allow Paul to add his balanced budget amendment to Reid bill.
4:19: Paul: It’s irresponsible for the President not to guarantee that the country’s debt will be paid (huh?) Wants to present an amendment to the Reid bill. Has 10 GOP who will agree to vote for the Reid bill if this amendment is added. Asks for unanimous consent to present the amendment to the Reid bill — balanced budget amendment.
3:45: Patty Murray flogs the increased interest rates, higher mortgage payments and unemployment rates in case of default (because of a credit rating downgrade one presumes, echoing Obama’s Friday speech). The Democrats are playing with fire validating the ratings agencies like this. The GOP is already warming up “The Obama Downgrade” machine.
3:15: Rubio flogging the AAA rating, and what it will mean to the American people. Why don’t the Dems have a game plan for this? All their messaging has validated this. And it’s going to be hung around their necks.
2:51 Landrieu: Revenues coming in are the lowest that they’ve been since (WW II? — wish they’d talk more about this, and the need to pay for the government services we expect).
2:20: Jeff Sessions: The President said his only bottom line is that they extend the debt ceiling through the next election. It’s all about him, what’s good for him. His reelection is the only thing he cares about. Well, it was a cringe-worthy moment.
2:05: Isakson would like to focus on things they agree on. Both parties agree on the need for a “Super Congress” which is not subject to normal parliamentary procedure to cut Social Security and Medicare, something the public is overwhelmingly opposed to. He’s certainly right about that.
1:59: Shaheen reads letter from constituents. The theme: “do what needs to be done to protect us.” Sounds like they’re laying the tracks for the 14th Amendment or coin seigniorage (which beowolf was suggesting on January 3).
1:42 FINALLY Levin pivots — “the vote tonight at 1am isn’t a vote on the Reid bill, it’s a vote to end debate on the Reid bill.” It’s all just theater I know, but seriously – it took them 16 hours to come up with a messaging rejoinder to McConnell?
1:33: Durbin is droning on about GOP filibuster. They ought to be able to do better than retreading that one at this point. Says quite rightly that this has been completely routine vote under Bush, Reagan and other presidents. A much more compelling argument.
1:28 pm: Reid says he only wants to vote now if they can have an up-or-down vote, otherwise he wants to take the cloture vote at 1am in the morning rather than right now. He then accuses the Republicans of delaying. Good lord. This makes Reid’s handling of the Roland Burris matter look masterful.
Come on over when you’re done Harry, let’s play Texas hold ‘em. (See: I Want to Play Poker With Harry Reid, January 7 2009)
1:25 pm: McConnell says with 2 days left the only thing we should be dealing with is something the President says he would sign, so he should be in any negotiations.
1:10 pm: McConnell doubles down, and wants to vote now on the Reid bill, which he says adds trillions more to the debt. (Ironically the levels of discretionary spending over the next 10 years is almost identical in the Reid and Ryan bills.)
1:00 pm: Reid’s script about “Republican delays” sounds a bit weak today. Did he not hear McConnell’s offer to allow a cloture vote last night?
Background
The Senate vote for cloture on the Reid bill is scheduled for 1am on Sunday morning. The House will vote on the Reid bill at 2:30 today, prior to the Senate vote. It will be on the suspension calendar which means that it can have no amendments and would need 2/3 vote to pass.
Last night Harry Reid filed cloture on his bill, which meant the Senate would vote on cloture 30 hours later. McConnell turned to Reid and told him the Republicans would allow a vote right now. It completely threw Reid, who waffled and said they’d only do it if they could have an up-or-down vote. McConnell refused. Reid quickly called for a “fake quorum call.”
For those of us left scratching our heads about WTF is going on, powwow gives a helpful blow-by-blow about what exactly happened:
Here are some of the facts that you won’t hear Harry Reid, Dick Durbin, Chuck Schumer, or Patty Murray mentioning when it’s their turn at bat in the dueling Party vs. Party press conferences (or addressing in response to questions, because members of the media covering them are unable/unwilling to point out such ‘inconvenient’ truths):
1. As Jane found out, it’s pretty damn hard to “liveblog” the U.S. Senate, as presently operated, because, as a direct result of the “fake quorum call,” the Senate floor is anything but “live.” [See Jane's liveblog above of the subsequent Democratic press conference, which lasted longer than the floor "debate" tonight.]
2. The Senate has had Harry Reid’s personal budget deal (as approved by the President) – containing the Catfood II Joint Select Committee, whose “goal [] shall be to reduce the deficit to 3 percent or less of GDP” – in front of it
since Monday evening. But for as long as Harry Reid’s personal deal has been before the Senate (all week), no amending of the deal has been possible on the Senate floor, because Harry Reid deliberately prevented that (by “filling the tree”; “tree” refers to a chart showing how amendments are offered in the Senate under regular order). So, instead, the Senate again idled most of the week, while Democratic Senators spent their time calling certain House Republicans names they’d never dare call them to their faces (“radical,” “extremist,” etc., etc.).
3. The same exact deal (at least as far as the public knows; changes may have been made to it in the backrooms since) that Harry Reid put before the Senate Monday evening, which was still before the Senate on Friday evening, was put before the Senate again this evening by Reid, with the only obvious change being the “legislative vehicle” to which it was attached. Harry Reid was formerly amending S. 1323 with Senate Amendment 581, now Harry Reid is amending S. 627 (the same bill that John Boehner used to put his deal before the House) with Senate Amendment 589. [The House-passed Budget Control Act of 2011 (the Boehner deal) had been transmitted to the Senate by 8:00 p.m., and Reid moved to lay that "Message from the House" before the Senate at that time.]
4. Just as Harry Reid did on Monday evening, as soon as Reid refiled his deal as an amendment to S. 627, he again abused his power to “fill the tree,” in order to block all amendments and thus prevent any other Senator from making a change to his deal on the floor without unanimous consent. [That was the five minutes or so this evening when Reid was incomprehensively calling up one (nonsense) amendment/motion after another and calling for the yeas and nays on each of them.]
5. As soon as the “Message from the House” – the Boehner deal, as passed by the House in an amendment to an unrelated Senate FOIAct bill – was placed before the Senate at Reid’s request at 8:00 p.m. tonight, Harry Reid immediately “moved to concur” in that House Message, and then immediately “moved to table the motion to concur” that he’d just made. The Senate then voted, without debate, on Reid’s motion to table (that is, to kill, or remove from the Senate agenda) the House Message that Reid had just voluntarily placed before the Senate. Reid’s “motion to table the motion to concur” with the House Message passed, 59-41.
6. After his motion to table passed, Harry Reid again asked to place the (just-tabled) House Message before the Senate, and this time “moved to concur with the House amendment with an amendment.” Meaning that Harry Reid moved to file a Senate amendment (#589, containing his personal deal) to the House amendment (containing the Boehner deal) that the House had added to the shell Senate FOIAct bill S. 627. That changed the “legislative vehicle” to which the Reid deal (in the form of an amendment) is attached, and replaced S. 1323 with S. 627 as the Senate’s pending business.
7. Immediately after moving to amend the Boehner deal with his deal, Harry Reid, with 17 of his Democratic colleagues, filed a supermajority cloture motion on S. 627 (which now contains the Boehner deal, with a pending substitute Reid amendment/deal), “to bring debate to a close” on S. 627 (the Reid deal). Under the optional rule of the Senate that the Democratic majority voluntarily invoked by filing its cloture motion, the Senate must wait a day before voting on the cloture motion, unless unanimous consent is received otherwise. In this case, Sunday is the first day the Senate could vote on today’s cloture motion, and so Reid has been planning a 1 a.m. vote on Sunday morning (according to Chuck Schumer at a Friday news conference and Reid on the floor this evening). Yet, if 60 votes are obtained Sunday morning, the cloture process allows another 30 hours of debate before a final simple-majority vote can be held, unless waived by unanimous consent (the cloture process was never intended, when created in 1917, to be used in the absence of obstructive debating filibusters, the way it’s now being routinely abused by the Democratic Senate).
8. Notably, however, before Reid even filed his cloture motion this evening, Mitch McConnell asked Reid if he planned to file cloture, and, if so, if Reid and the Democrats would be willing, as every member of the Republican Caucus was, to hold an immediate vote on S. 627 (the Reid deal, the substance of which, again, has been before the Senate since Monday evening, though attached to a different shell bill). McConnell also noted that he had learned that the House planned to vote on the Reid deal (even though not passed by the Senate) at 1:00 p.m. on Saturday.
9. McConnell’s request had a catch though: McConnell wanted a supermajority (60-vote) threshold for tonight’s immmediate vote on the Reid deal, just like the threshold that Reid was about to impose on the Senate with his cloture motion. Reid, obviously anticipating McConnell’s public request, declined to accept an immediate vote, because of McConnell’s supermajority vote threshold, and then immediately proceeded to file his already-prepared Democratic cloture motion to impose his own supermajority (60-vote) threshold on the Senate (and his deal) instead, including, in Reid’s case, a day’s delay until the cloture motion “ripens” under the rule. And then Reid called what had just transpired a “filibuster” by the Republicans ‘any way you look at it.’ [Apparently in the same way that the President's war on Libya is not "hostilities" 'any way you look at it'...]
10. Which, finally, brings me back to the “Fake Quorum Call.” Harry Reid rightly stated that the Senate should be voting by simple majority (as the Standing Rules provide), on this and most legislation, but then implied that the Republicans were preventing that from happening. Except, of course, that’s false. It’s the Parties that are preventing that from happening, for their own convenience – though that’s well-disguised by partisan point-scoring. All Harry Reid has to do to return the Senate to simple-majority operation is to allow the Senate’s default rules and regular order to obtain. And in order to do that, all Harry Reid has to do is to give the same signal he gave to the Parliamentarian/Clerk/Presiding Officer earlier this very same evening (at about 7:00 p.m.) to transform the Senate-idling fake quorum call into a real/live quorum call. And then to do the same thing every time anyone tries to reimpose the fake quorum call on the Senate – which blocks all Senate business, never comes to an end on its own, may only be lifted by unanimous consent or by the Majority Leader (until a Senator finally challenges the practice as out of order), and allows Senators to be anywhere but on the Senate floor while the Senate is “in session.” Once the Fake Quorum Call is lifted, if no Senator takes the floor to debate (that’s how one actually “filibusters,” if the debate is deliberately obstructive), the Presiding Officer is obliged to “put the pending question” (in this case, the Reid deal) to a simple-majority vote of the Senate.
When Mark Udall, on Reid’s behalf, adjourned the Senate for the night at about 9:00 p.m., we learned that they’ve arranged for a period of six hours of “debate” on Reid’s unamendable deal (which has been before the Senate all week) on Saturday afternoon – from about 1:00 p.m to 7:30 p.m. Obviously, scoring partisan points about this subject is seen as extremely important by the leadership of both Parties (largely because of the debt-ceiling extension’s potential impact on the wholly-unrelated presidential election campaign), and that’s what Saturday’s Senate speeches will amount to, absent unexpected developments (revised Gang of Six deal?). It sounded like Reid was also preparing to agree to an earlier cloture vote (at about 8:00 p.m. Saturday evening, instead of 1:00 a.m.), but that’s a guess. Since Reid has filled the tree and won’t remove the Fake Quorum Call, the only way his deal will change is by unanimous consent, after any privately-offered changes have first been privately vetted (by McConnell and Reid – with the President who’s directing him – and possibly by Boehner). Again, that assumes no unexpected developments break the corrupt status quo – like the welcome emergence of a group of Senators who decide to stand up and bypass their petty leadership to think and act for themselves, and to work on behalf of their nation, instead of simply obeying backroom orders from their Parties or the President’s re-election campaign.
It’s incredible how thoroughly uninterested most incumbent Senators and Representatives seem to be in actually doing the work that they claim so desperately needs doing… They want a few Leaders to do it all for them, behind closed doors, and then to simply tell them how they should cast their public vote, while still claiming the title of a federal legislator (as opposed to a Party order-taking hack) with a straight face. Most of them have been passively waiting to receive those orders for months now – particularly in the Senate.
Thus, since the President and a few Party Leaders will clearly be the ones privately controlling the outcome of the Catfood II Committee on Deficit Reduction, most House and Senate legislators seem not the least bit concerned – if not downright relieved – with the fact that the Committee’s unknown product will be completely unamendable by anyone in Congress after the 12 Members appointed to sit on the Committee (by Party Leadership) report out their recommendations. The Parties will speak when the Joint Select Committee reports this November, and our “representatives” apparently plan to salute and obediently do what they consider their only job to be – to cast the public vote (at least until they can find a way to do that privately too) that their Party tells them to cast.




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Reid is calling for an up or down vote on his bill.
REMINDER:
The Democrats in the Senate can end the filibuster TODAY if they want to. It’s their CHOICE.
All this theater for what? If we didn’t know how it was going to end up, it might even be interesting. However, its just a matter of when will Barry O. hand over the Dems. “crown jewels,” SSI and Medicare for an incredibly bad deal, that is, it would be, if he was a Democrat, but of course as Paul Krugman made perfectly clear last week, he’s not. So, lets just get this over already.
Who will put up there hand to primary this guy already? ENOUGH!!
My head is spinning.
And my stomach is turning.
I’m totally done with this do-nothing, Worst.Congress.Evah.
Damn Jane, you should run for Senate… Love your invite to Harry on playing poker… sounds like you could play Harry a game of strip with you in a bikini and him in a full dress suit and he would still stand naked before you lost anything… This whole admin and Congress is straight out of a Shakespearean tragicomedy… a farce… Parliament of Pendejos…
Catfood 2 can order this Congress around, so I am worried about your “this Dec report” comment – I thought Catfood 2 was to report in 2013.
Guess that changed to fit Obama’s “grand bargain” time line.
Not sure Jane would consider that a “win.”
I gotta say, I think the big winners here could be…us.
I could be dead wrong and freely admit that a super crappy deal could emerge at any moment, with both parties dead set on screwing the public.
But I don’t see the path to that happening. And if Obama has to use the 14th Amendment, there’s no Super Congress catfood commission that comes with it.
Ironically, the Republicans wanting to screw him more than they want a Catfood commission may be the thing that keeps us from having one forced on us.
*do-nothing, i.e. not doing the business of the People but instead the crooked bankstas. Leahy makes it clear he is not on the side of the People with that speech.
We desperately need a simpler explanation of what is going on.
Is the Dem Administration plan meant to gain approval for something like the Reid plan? If so, how does this happen. Does that strategy require the Reid plan first be approved? Or defeated? What then?
Or
Is the plan designed to end in stalemate, which then politically requires the President to say, enough, I tried, but now I have to protect the credit and economy by invoking the Constitution? No cuts, no cat food, and we will pay our bills. Any questions?
I can’t make any sense of this, unless the latter outcome is the plan.
The GOP wants Obama to use the XIVth, for impeachment, I guess since Libya is going so well and therefore doesn’t provide a vehicle any longer. Why they think impeaching Obama will hurt him, I don’t know.
The House and Senate teabaggers are being advised on how to limit the Executive’s power in case he uses the XIVth by David Addington from his perch at the Heritage Foundation. Any circumstance under which David Addington argues for a weakened Executive, he of the Unitary, must involve a Democrat in the Oval.
QED: Obama IS a Democrat!
God, we can only hope you’re right. And we’d have to thank the Tea Party types for standing up for their principles, even if the principles are loony. Are we through the looking glass yet?
Doesn’t Boehner’s pre-emptive dismissal — and vote — on the Reid plan mean there is no path but the XIVth? If Boehner is publicly demonstrating before Senate passage that Reid’s plan is DOA, then they are stuck in their own muck, right?
I think what’s not being considered here is the card that will be played on Monday when the stock market opens up with no agreement.
It still looks to me like…. well, I won’t go there anymore since I’m obviously a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.
Anyone wanna bet on what stocks do on Monday???
If not, then what do you think happens after that??
Does anyone remember the first TARP vote?
Interesting aspect of this whole thing: if Obama is forced to use coin seigniorage or the 14th Amendment, doesn’t he get the worst of all worlds?
- No Catfood II or Grand Bargain.
- All the blowback from the left over putting SSMM out there on the chopping block.
- The chance of getting impeached by the House.
Jane’s right; the best thing we can hope for is that the GOP’s anger at having their pet poodle being told where to shit, agreeably, but then balking when they tell him to turn around and eat it, will lead them to mindless mistakes which Obama (and Reid) can then not capitalize on.
You and me both. The old line about not wanting to see sausage made fits these past few weeks.
I’ll freely admit to being a conservative but I’m also one who’s tired of all the games that are played on both sides. To Repubs and Dems in DC: sit down and do your damn jobs like we sent you there to do. No more games or procedures or shouting please. Find the middle ground, which is there if you look hard enough, and make the country great again.
If you don’t, well I guess we’ll just have to find some replacements for you.
I like to think that if you had a room full of liberals and conservatives, not screaming/throwing tantrums/etc but with open minds we could come up with some great ideas.
Just a dream I guess.
I don’t think so. Maybe the crazies thnk they can successful impeach and be cheered for that,but I doubt the leadership or their funders believe that. And if I wer Obama, I would welcome the tea zombies spending Th nest year trying to remove the President for saving the US credit from crazy people. That’s a better position to run on than his actual record on the economy.
I’m now starting to think they’re trying to bait the tea zombies into being crazy, the crazier the better. Perhaps McConnell has figured this out and is willing to vote FOR Reid plan, and force the Dems to defeat it,to maintain the stalemate. then Reid has to decide, defeat my own plan? How do I explain that? Better to hope Th Zombies in the House defeat it.
I say again, primarying him will be the icing on the cake. The cake itself will be his numbers getting historically low, which will scare the living shit out of the dems in congress and THEY will go over to the White House and pull the plug on him.
I used to think they’d impeach him if he used the 14th but now I’m not sure. I think they’re playing for the credit downgrade, and then Mitt Romney enters stage right and the Serious People start shaking their heads and going tsk-tsk about how Obama did this to the country. I think they’re going for “adult in the room” rather than full-on wingnut crazy.
The tea party could certainly fan those flames to get the base worked up, but I don’t think they go there.
Sadly the argument that this is a manufactured crisis, and that the ratings agencies are totally discredited will not be available to the White House, because they played along with it so long. Obama personally used the ratings downgrade as a maguffin too many times. They will use his own words against him.
I’d add: I will support practically anyone who primaries him, rather than face the voters with him as our nominee.
That will entail renaming the party “The Whigs”.
Wouldn’t it be extraordinary if the Congress impeached Obama for raising the debt limit in the presidency directly following George W. Bush’s administration?
I can’t see how that wouldn’t start a lot of apocalyptic shit.
I’ve always thought that it would be the best thing that could happen to Obama’s reelection chances is that they try to impeach him. Clinton’s approval rate soared during impeachment.
Would just suck for the country.
“…because they played along with it so long…”
and that needs to be in pulsating neon letters.
Hoisted on their/our own petard doesn’t BEGIN to describe this wretched little farce.
I have to admit, I don’t understand McConnell’s repeated calls to negotiate with Obama on this, unless he is still trying to tie the whole fiasco to Obama.
The pace of the deal is essential. They want the Reid plan to the the absolute only thing that can be passed, so the last thing they want is to speed things up. Also, Reid may have still needed to whip up a few more votes.
The House vote on “Reid’s plan” is just theater, and means nothing.
We are approaching the end game.
@OFG @ 14. If the Reid deal passes its cloture vote, the market will be up. They really don’t care what the deal is, just that there is one. It might be up 25 on Monday and another 25 on Tuesday when the bill is signed (though that will happen after market close), or it might be up 50 on Monday. If the cloture vote fails, the market falls 50+. Place your bets!
I have lots of doubts about the impeachment buggaboo. I don’t think the Rs will do it but they do like to make threats.
I don’t think they’ll do it either. Doesn’t the “trial” take place in the Senate?
Also, does the constitution say anything about impeaching a president for being a monumental fuckup?
Agree completely. Too easy to portray it as pure politics – they would have impeached the last two Democratic Presidents. Senate would not convict. Also, his “high crime” would be trying to keep the country going after Congress (with near-zero approval ratings) screwed things up. And he will have a $billion to get his message out.
Just a reminder to any who think the 14th amendment (or coin) solution may be the end result…
Didn’t S&P already play the card that gives them the excuse that those aren’t enough to avoid a downgrade?
Pretty sure their message was “ANY result that doesn’t include cuts will result in downgrade.”
They’re catching a lot of heat for that (as they should). Can’t imagine they’d do that just for grins and giggles….
“Serious People start shaking their heads and going tsk-tsk about how Obama did this to the country.”
___
I’ve been saying all along that this is all about hanging that “First President Ever…” burning tire around his neck for 2012.
CNN now has its “Default Countdown Clock” onscreen now in the lower left screen corner, and their talking heads guests are debating “when” Default actually technically occurs. The implication being that if the Administration takes unilateral action at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday, it will have simply been a 2012 re-election campaign tactic.
Excellent! No raise in the debt limit and no Catfood-II.
I’m particularly fond of the coin-seigniorage option, because it could end the practice of covering deficits with borrowing by simply using the fact that we have a fiat currency, i.e., appropriations could be self funding. (Coin seigniorage simply uses a loophole in existing leglislation to avoid the need for any new legislation.)
If we stopped borrowing to fund deficits, the debt would eventually be paid off, and we’d get rid of the need to pay $400 billion per year in interest. (It was $414B in 2010.)
Shorter Sessions: “Blah.”
We will not default. If the debt limit is not raised, Obama will have at least six options, as detailed here by letsgetitdone.
sounds like one of those board of directors, tasks with mgt. oversight of some tbtf bank, happy to take home their $$$ and the prestige of the title, so long as real work, let alone oversight is not required.
and, with luck, lift the veil on the convenient fiction that the fed govt must borrow to deficit spend. :)
There is absolutely no way that we don’t get a Catfood Com II. That’s one of the few certainties in all this, imo. The important question to me: will Obama let the country default (checks not making it to grandma’s mailbox) before invoking the 14th or some other Executive mechanism (that is to say, will he put himself at political risk in order to further tar Republicans)? This scenery seems unlikely, but without anything else to run on in 2012, tarring the Republicans might be the only campaign strategy left. Secondary question: at what point in 2012 would a Catfood Commission become too politically toxic even for Obama? Tertiary observation: Republicans would really like to take the economy off the docket till next summer (when it’s referendum time, not “governing” time), so an impeachment fiasco would be perfect for them in the interim.
Obama can avoid the impeachment consequence and avoid the downgrade threat with a signing statement along with applying the XIVth. In the signing statement he deems this one-time act to be unimpeachable, citing the SCOTUS 2000 Gore v. Bush non-precedental ruling as precedent, and ordering the US Treasury to deposit his salary going forward into the Treasury, thereby cutting expenditures.
Damn right! We are no longer on the gold standard. The national debt is a “detrimental vestigial organ” that is costing us four trillion dollars per decade, and that cost will go up rapidly when interest rates go up.
Let’s get a clue and realize that we have a fiat currency. Congress can put money wherever it pleases with the stroke of a pen. Specifically, when it passes an appropriation, it should fund that appropriation, i.e., tell the Fed to credit the Treasury’s account by the corresponding amount. (Coin seigniorage is a loophole that allows the Secretary of the Treasury already to do that on his own. Duh!)
But you knew all that already. ;-)
I’m vehemently opposed to the Super Duper, BUT is there a downside to the 14th?
Reps. Tim Scott (R-SC) and Steve King (R-IA) have already been talking impeachment. And while the POTUS was already given the green light via Reid / McConnell… the House could still open an impeachment inquiry and it could last months.
Downside?
ALL talking heads focus on the politics of impeachment at a time when we should be focusing on ending wars… oh sorry… kinetic actions.
Also, I disagree that the 14th eliminates our new Super Duper. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Obama INCLUDES it when he invokes the 14th as his “olive branch” toward bipartisanship.
I’m with you. 14th Amendment means we win…this round anyway. The push for Catfood II Super Congress will still be fierce, and both parties want it, so we’re not out of the woods.
That’s why I prefer the coin-seigniorage option. It would eliminate not just the debt-limit crisis but the debt crisis as well. And then Obama would lose his shock doctrine leverage, and craziness like Catfood-II could be debated, amended, and filibustered in a air of sanity.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But, then, I repeat myself.
– Mark Twain
Howdy Ma’am . . . do you think that’s really a possibility? That this clusterphuck is about punishing or damaging Obama, and Obama’s way out of it is the 14th? With him losing the Cat2 Commission in the process?
On the coining thing, I just have NO idea why anyone (Congress or Obama) would go for that . . . what’s the detail(s) about coining actually being something any of them would WANT to do?
I’ve not seen any opinions on this, just the clarity many have shared about the coining process itself . . . . why would any pols want to do coining?
Thanks for any thoughts from anyone on this . . . need more popcorn n I gotta shave more garlic n cheese for it, too. Not sure our Merlot is gonna hold out if we start this early here at Chez Larue.
Like many others, I’m sickened with the drive to cut social services programs and SS under this bipartisan smoke filled horrid kabuki
production. They can’t act, they can’t dance, they can’t sing. None of them. I want my taxes back!
;-)
Please don’t drag that old war horse out.
“Let’s not do X because we should be focusing on ending wars, that’s more important.”
10 years later, I think we get it.
And I’m not willing to throw Social Security or Medicare on a burning pyre for political advantage.
Obama doesn’t have the power to force Congress to accept a Super Congress. Catfood I had no extra-parliamentary privileges.
argh. just shoot me.
senator landrieu is using the faux household budget analogy for the fed govt budget. (see fallacy of composition)
now, granted, i didn’t know about any of this until after i went looking for some macroecon which wasn’t stupid (after the sept 2008 crash — and i’ve just scratched the surface so far), but i’m not a senator with a staff to do her research for her. if i can do it, landreiu and the rest of the Ds can and should too.
we are governed by idiots.
I think he invokes the 14th and then creates his super-duper congress anyway. It would set a “wonderful” precedent on the painful march toward a return to the monarchy. And he’s looking for reelection. So the Super could prove helpful to The Authoritarian in Term II.
Later, folks. Gotta go have my Ma (who is living entirely too large on her $938 a month SS) eval’d for Hospice.
Really tired of hearing that the problem for businesses is “uncertainty”. It. is. not.
There is debate on whether the President has the legal ability to invoke the 14th Amendment.
The ability to mint the coin is actually less controversial. Read Brad DeLong, who was Deputy Assistant Secretary of the United States Department of the Treasury in the Clinton Administration under Larry Summers:
The President’s Obligation to Take Care That the Laws Be Faithfully Executed Requires Him to Start Minting Large-Denomination Platinum Coins
Yeah it’s kind of her job.
Yep! They are constantly justifying their rip-off profits on the fact that they are heroic “risk-takers”?
Where exactly does he get the power to do this? That would be an extraordinary executive power grab.
So sorry about that vegasboomer. Best to you and your mom.
I respectfully disagree. I think the Rs are such catywampus, batshit crazy racists that they are setting this whole thing up to tank Obama. Tanking the dems is just secondary gain.
Of course, this isn’t the only reason they are messing around with our country/economy. If we default, interest rates will go up and, suddenly, the banks will find it in their hearts to start lending to the riff raff again.
Also, the deficit is liking lending money to the people without interest. The banks hate, hate, hate this.
the significance of this (and floating exchange rates) can’t, imo, be overstated.
it’s just private sector financial asset net savings (although i agree it matters A LOT where that savings go). also, i’m not so sure about interest rates… mosler, wray and others advocate a low and stable federal funds rate. what i’ve read of that so far, makes sense to me and there’s way too much speculation on interest rate changes (need to read a lot more though).
I know the POTUS doesn’t have the authority, but he could suggest it and publicly state his support of whatever Boehner / Reid decide. Then Reid / Boehner have some time to round up the votes necessary to abdicate Congressional responsibilities.
My guess is that Reid and Boehner would be able to find a majority of each house willing to vote in favor of the super congress… even as a vote completely independent of the debt ceiling. They certainly want it to happen. And most CongressCritters hate “tough” votes. So if Boehner and Obama agree on the “need”, I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t happen.
Wouldn’t the coin-seigniorage action permanently make the Federal Reserve [private corporation] a de facto monarchical sovereign?
Why are we paying any interest at all if we have fiat money?
He himself wouldn’t have to create the commission whole cloth. There’s consensus among national politicians for it, so let it written, so shall it be done. I agree with you; how it gets done is largely moot. It will; for me it’s just a matter when. Consensus knows no procedural hurdle it can’t overcome. This whole thing is simply a messaging/branding display–and a way of establishing a political path for the parties through Nov. 2012.
Great!
I did not know that DeLong had endorsed it, but once Jack Balkin picked up on coin seigniorage, other academics, e.g., Mark Kleiman at UCLA, started noticing.
3:30 Boehner/McConell presser per NBC. They should drive up to the mic in a clown car.
amen and thank you!
I think we are in for some Shock Doctrine. Between Reid and Obama it is a race to see who can give up the most,the quickest because of this grave crisis. they are going to do here what was done in chili i fear
That’s what I see coming too.
(( vegasboomer ))
Coin seigniorage is a way that the Treasury can force the Fed to credit the account from which the Treasury pays the government’s bills. It does not add any new powers to the Fed itself, which already has the ability to produce money from nothing.
Perfect way to concentrate more power at the top. It negates the Tea Baggers and the Fire B……
treasury mints the coin and the fed must accept as deposit — face value legal tender.
edit to add: wigwam said it better above.
I agree. It looks like 14th amendment is more likely with him finding a way to make the super congress, and some of the other stuff (he and) the Republicans want, happen. Of course some Tea Party types will aim for impeachment, but if he basically gives the Republicans what they want, they have little reason to go that route as, like said before, it will increase his popularity (perhaps they, excluding the brain dead Tea Party cult members, do secretly want him as president, being the obvious Republican DINO he is).
This is a really important point. They’re not even slightly dragging their heels or pretending to say No before caving, their preemptive assistance of this just a balls out footrace.
Why, indeed???
As I said, the national debt is a detrimental vestige of the gold standard.
But he’s so gosh darn popular most of the “public” will let him do anything he wants because he’s so unbelievably articulate. He ‘s knows no one will do anything other than blog, sign a petition and make phone calls. He can live with that. He’d have a hard time with 1/2 million people in front of the WH shouting for him to resign.
The president can’t create a super congress on his own. Whatever he sets up n hs own has now authority to tell Congress how to pass laws.
As Powwow has been explaining… most pols report to the parties. So if Obama publicly supports the Super Duper, then he just needs to get Boehner on board. And Boehner wants it because it consolidates his power and simplifies his job.
Yeah… thinking about it more now… I’m guessing it’s virtually a done deal. Sorry Jane… I hate to say it, but that’s what I see coming. :(
But hey… I’ve been wrong plenty of times… here’s to hoping I’m wrong this time!
Jon Kyl speaking. *puke* Good time for a break.
The public largely knows brand Obama, the marketing campaign from 2009. They don’t pay attention to politics. They may think they like the brand still, but odds are they’re not happy with the state of the economy. At some point, the reality will trump the brand, though that point varies between person. For many, that means not voting because they’re sick of both corrupt parties. The enthusiastic Democrats will be those with decent jobs who still adore brand Obama. Major fracturing going on right now among the bases of both parties due to their corruption.
The only good thing to come out of this would be if Republicans can totally rob Obama of his bipartisan/compromise boner.
Note that during QEII, the Fed bought USbonds, then returned the interest it earned on those bonds to the Treasury. No net interest to the US! Freaked out the zombies, who went after the Fed and TheBernanke for cheapening the dollar!! Hooray!
SOmehow I misses Scarecrow’s #10 . . . those are GREAT questions I’d like more info about . . . GREAT comment SC.
Thanks Tim for your thoughts too . . . . I keep wanting to throw things at my computer screen . . . . streaming CSPAN2, prolly should close that window . . . ;-)
note the banks were given money by the fed, they bought government bonds with that money and earned interest by first borrowing money from the same people they lent money to.
thebernanke, he knows how to throw a party
Thanks ma’am . . . wish I had any hope it will come to Obama and the 14th . . . and eliminate this kabuki intended for Cat2 . . .
Ohhhh . . . sorry to hear . . . my best wishes to you and her and all.
I mentioned Boehner wanting it, but the whole quartet (HR, NP, MM & Boehner) most likely want it.
The only one I’m not convinced wants to consolidate power is Boehner. Earlier in the term he was getting both tattooed and complimented by Ds and Rs alike for allowing the House to “do the people’s work.”
But even if his instincts tell him that the Super Congress is a bad idea, he knows his caucus doesn’t like “tough” votes. So he’ll be bipartisany and go along with Obama.
say scarecrow, what’s the deal with the government simply minting coin to cover the debt?
follow the link, is that plausable?
what would be the liability
http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/07/28/282471/the-platinum-coin-option/
Lucky me… I’m living in rural Haiti at the moment, so no real TV and online TV is sketchy at best. I get to live in blissful ignorance of Harry’s Fake Quorum Call!
Ah, path of lesser resistance . . . yeah, had read some of DeLong’s stuff recently but not that linky, thanks.
Hmmm . . . I don’t see enough DRIVE for coining at this point to force it to happen . . . I don’t see the pressure on Obama to do it not Congress. Am I missing any pressure not in evidence to me?
Thanks again . . . this is incredible work you and FDL are doing. I”ve begun to add it to my FB page, which I reluctantly got cuz all my festing and picking pals are there now and left our usual haunts on the toobz . . . they are getting an earful from me (FDL). ;-)
I’m sorry to hear about that, Vegasboomer. My warmest thoughts to both of you.
Obama wanted to use the debt limit for shock doctrine and austerity, the Republicans simply wanted to use it to embarrass Obama’s efforts. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t plenty of other routes to austerity. There are and there will be. Republicans just get to rob Obama of any potential gain he might get from his (reasonable, Serious) shock doctrine, so insofar as that’s concerned, I say, party on Tea-fools.
Those are some really interesting points Mary . . . which contradict or counterpoint a lot of what I’ve heard out there . . . . gotta think some of that over . . . very insightful thots tho . . . . well done.
Lovin the breezes past day or so, and now? Incredible for this time of year! *G*
The ONLY thing that I can ferret out of all of this, as Congress is just being plain insanely stupid, is that they ALL have hedge bets on default, and stand to make billions for themselves and Wall St.BNKS.
It’s far too simplistic of a view, I know . . . but still . . . LeSigh.
You’ve share a lot of linky’s past few weeks thanks for them all!
Yeah, along with my fear of the Stupor 12, is the dread that the entire Congress wants it BADLY so they can hide behind it all somehow . . .
There are two reasons that, in the absence of a raising of the debt limit, would choose this option:
* Lack of clearly legal alternatives — the 14th Amendment would be a snake pit.
* Coin seigniorage not only ends the debt-limit crisis, but the debt crisis as well.
Under the coin-seigniorage option, WE STOP BORROWING.
I hate Rubio but damn, he’s good, solid and smooth with his lyin rhetoric . . . “grow our economy” dang he’s a Dim? lol
Create jobs? Am I wrong about this guy? *stunned*
?
obama caused the kabuke and he did it deliberately, he caused it by extending the redistribution of middle class assets scheme which has been marketed as “bush tax cuts”
those are now obama “cuts” not bush’s and he was told extending them would bring us to the position we are in today
in addition, the supposed deby ceiling is only a problem because those “cuts” are expected to be extended yet again, there is no “problem” if they are left to expire
obama wants to get this debt “issue” “resolved” before his redistribution scheme expires so he has more ground to “extend” the scheme further
‘K, back to less spending by govt . . . normal ballast agin . . . had me fooled for a minute there!
The Super Congress will be composed of Rep. and Dems. in relatively safe reelection or those not facing a 2012 election. Provides plenty of cover.
Yes, the statute literally allows Tim to mint coins of any denomination he specifies. He then deposits them in the Treasury checking account, by a few key strokes, and writes checks on that. It’s so simple, it will freak out everyone, there will be MMT people on all the Sunday shows!
And the mere threat of doing this could scare Zombies into agreeing that, gosh, that 14th Amendment thing must be correct, because they’d rather concede that than to let Tim destroy all their stupid arguments.
There would be signs at tea parties saying, stop the hyper inflation from destroying the dollar! Wlliam Jennings Bryan will come back from the grave. And things will get really strange,compared to now,which is totally rational.
Ok, thanks, but I don’t see the pressure on Obama to DO this. Where’s the pressure? He wants Cat2, end of his story.
I just don’t see the pressure on him or Congress.
Default could be likely, as many Pups have pointed out, it might not be that bad in reality . . . . will they default in lieu of losing Cat2?
I’d be willing they would, rather than go the coining route, They all have hedge bets on it! N so does Wall St, who owns each and every one of them.
Cynic? Me? OH HAYALL YES!
;-)
I actually do think Obama and third way-ers want more revenues. Just not for social programs.
How does that work? The Chinese and Japanese will still have excess dollars and they may not want to park them in Chase bank and they will still want interest?
my fear then is that there will no longer be a physcological or imaginary limit to what we can print, thus diluting the percieved value of our currency, which I think might translate into some serious inflation
Yep, I know . . . but Cat2 sure seems to be the driver to me, not any thing else . . . well, default will make a LOT of people really richer from their hedge bets . . . to me, that’s a huge driver behind all this mess.
Thanks for yer thot’s, always appreciate them and yer insights.
I think obama is using that as cover, ss is funded and secure yet he has managed to use it as some kind of debt liability.
he wants to get rid of it or “fix it”, he said so before he took office
Ah, fully agreed . . . thanks. Good catch.
*G*
*G*
Well phrased. lol
We can phase it out as slowly and selectively as we please. E.g., the SS Trust Fund will be dwindling down over the course of 25 years.
How long would it take to actually make this coin, and what would be on the face and back of it? I assume it can’t be mythical.
Yep.
On one side, a horse with a horn on its head.
On the other, just the horses butt, with a rainbow fan of glitter.
;-)
Absolutely. As someone else said, I forgot where: this is all mere pretext for lowering Americans’ overall standard of living, of having our economy and workers broken so we’ll be happy to compete for work with someone in Malaysia making $1.10 an hour.
I’m glad we agree that the fear your raised earlier, the President would be able to “create a Super duper congress,” is not warranted.
If what you’re worried about is that he will say he “supports” one,
he said that long ago:
When it failed to pass Congress he created Catfood I, which did not have any extra parliamentary powers.
He supports one. He has always supported one. People know he supports one. I don’t see how him saying it again will really change things. If it happens they will still have to fight for it and can’t be created with the same mechanism as the 14th Amendment.
All of that was predicated on there being no increase in the debt ceiling.
The only way that could happen is if progressives joined with the Teabaggers to defeat it, along with Catfood-II
If I understand you right we will always be issuing bonds to China, Japan and other offshore suppliers??
“GOP Impeaches America’s Second Black President”
Welcome to “lumpenhood.”
That deserves block quotes.
A bit late for constituents to impact this crisis methinks . . .
However, the coming maelstorm of public discontent may find many different kinds of people in the streets one way or another . . .
;-)
Yer too good.
Nobody should be that good.
;-)
Listening to CSPAN2 and our erected offals has forced me to some comic relief to avoid busting major arteries . . . ;-)
My daughter, then three, once made mud waffles using our new waffle iron. She may still have that. I would put Jim DeMint on one side and a horse’s ass on the other.
It might have to wait for a Republican president with a Republican House (2013, most likely) when there will be no need for Republcans to hem and haw and obstruct and the Democrats in the Senate will merrily play along. But yeah, invoking the 14th might buy us another year or 18 months before CC II.
inflation is a risk with full employment (not solvency) but regular inflation, not hyperinflation (without other massive changes). also resource bottlenecks. the idea is to focus on real economic issues, not the faux deficit/debt issue.
for more info, see the session on inflation from last year’s teach-in (there are transcripts, presentations, audio and two kinds of video – hopefully some format that will appeal to you!):
http://www.netrootsmass.net/fiscal-sustainability-teach-in-and-counter-conference/
The platinum coin option… I had completely missed it. Based on your link, it seems pretty clear to me. But any idea on the genesis of that law? I’m guessing it was purposes of making commemorative coins?
Ok, is Merkeley the good proggy from OR or is he the bluish dog second best Dim?
Teddy?
I lost my scorecard . . . heads spinning . . . RAM supply running low . . .
But, how would you tell the sides apart from each other?
Da fat cat bankerz haz third way Dems in their pockits
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/07/third-way-document-proves-democratic-party-supports-institutionalized-looting-by-banks.html
China buys our bonds because they have a trade surplus with us, not because we have a budget deficit. They could also buy other US or other assets with the dollars they earn from selling us their stuff, but they prefer to buy our bonds instead. If they stopped buying them, someone else would buy them. The whole Chna issue is not about the debt.
Did I hear Harry say the dems are willing to accept a balanced budget amendment? Just not now. That’s nuts.
LOL! stephanie kelton asked the same question.
it’s laws. beowulf gave them to me and i’m tracking down the history of multiple bills now.
It doesn’t seem to be a genuine solution, but my only reason for saying so is that the Lone Ranger didn’t use platinum bullets.
All battle plans are made in tents
However, real battle plans develop on the battle field.
Obama did not see this coming? this is why, OBAMA a horrible political players.
the Tea Party is driven by hate for OBAMA, so their base of support is not going anywhere
Obama under estimated the hate of the tea party, and wall street may have underestimated this hate also.
I don’t find it right now, but in the past week there was a diary at myFDL that gave a breakdown of the federal debt according to what percentage is owed to whom. For example over 11% is owed to the Fed and 19% to the SS Trust Fund, and so on. China is something like fourth or fifth, but the total percent owed to China, Japan, etc. was well under 25% if I recall correctly.
It would seem that we should negotiate a special deal with major trading partners with regard to how we’ll deal with their trade surplus. That should be “on the table” in trade negotiations.
Third Way’s website is like that Subway restaurant that operates as a front for a heroine speakeasy. All fuckin sweetness and light concealing the rot at its core.
presser
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43955567#43955567
McConnell
ReidBoehnerYou don’t have to. If you want to make choices by flipping a coin, use a quarter.
Sounds like a deal is coming as I listen to McC and Boner. they seem to have confidence.
Great pic.
Greater read by Yves . . . Third Way indeed.
Bookmarked for later full read, a skim of it reveals Mz. Smith is still, a complete treasure for us readers . . . thanks for sharing that one here.
Loving the breezes? I sure am . . . *G*
Kabuki, don’t buy it.
This is a deliberate attempt to bust SS and social services programs.
Break FDR/LBJ efforts on behalf of the masses.
N both parties are fully actively engaged in this effort.
I just don’t agree with ya on this one, hoss . . . .
Has anyone started calling the coin minting idea “change you can believe in”??
Several mainstream bloggers have claimed that that is so, e.g., Jack Balkin. If you simply google coin seigniorage, you’ll find others. Apparently the law was passed in 1996, some say as a result of lobbying by the commemorative-coin industry, etc. They see this use as exploitation of a “loophole.”
Whatever, there should be a law that we can take advantage of the fact that we have a fiat currency to avoid the need for all of these interest payments.
*G*
Heads I lose, butts I lose . . . damn coin. ;-)
one of the surest ways to create hyperinflation would be a successful tax revolt. 0 taxes = 0 value for dollar.
is that weird enough for you yet?
Event over . . . got a summary of the lies spewed forth?
I saw that and there is a treasury web site with that info. I’m not sure how it works, though.I think there is a demand for t bonds both domestic and offshore. After all some people want to be risk free (despite S&P) and use it for savings. I suppose you could replace it with an insured fed account at a bank (with limits beyond ususal FDIC) but I think they will demand more that a quarter point interest. If you do that, you can be sure that will be deemed debt, just like any other t bond. It may be the only permanent way around this is to repeal that stupid law.
For now though I like the minting solution and the possibility of eliminating all or most of the debt.
Dayum, yer on yer A Game hoss . . . ;-)
no, it was over too quick.
did seem whiney in nature tho
Whose mug might grace such a coin, Scarecrow?
LIkely, ‘twould be Reagan …. for a number of changing “reasons”.
;~DW
Thanks. You know the history better than I do. But that was the prior Congress that refused it.
Has anyone tracked the whip count on it in the current Congress?
My initial reaction is that it would be even less likely to happen with a GOP House, BUT… wondering if the unspoken concerns (reelection) could trump the spoken concerns (partisan talking points)?
For example, do some Rs get worried about primaries because they didn’t cut spending… or because they failed to impeach Obama?
House seats could get credible primary challengers in many states through Q4’11 or Q1’12. Might they feel some primary heat and then tell Boehner they agree to the Super Duper in order to make spending cuts… thus reducing the likelihood of a primary?
There’s a lot of moving pieces here… just trying to process everything.
I’d love that too, but I see NO indications these two parties and the WH have ANY intent to do so . . . this is all about busting up FDR/LBJ.
N it has both parties, WH, and Bankers/Wall St fully behind it.
That’s my big pic view so far . . . n CAT2 is the end goal.
The point has to do with wether or not we could eliminate the t bond debt altogether or would off shore suppliers demand them.
It would be loads of fun if Obama ordered that it be Obama’s head that graces it.
My dog I can see teabaggers and racist heads exploding all around the country!!!!
Yeah, pretty much what I’d guess . . . it’s all kabuki.
Greatest show on earth is being enacted now on our stage of life by these erected offals . . . n we are the suckers born every minute.
LeSigh . . . I should get some sunshine and wash the orange stain off my hands . . . keyboard is a mess n the pajamas smell old.
;-)
Hello Garden!
Thanks to all for this thread and info . . . we endure on!
*G*
LOL! Good one.
lol. this thread is more funny than any other i can remember in a long time.
once we get this deficit/debt thing sorted out, i think trade may what needs discussing next…. i’m quite sure that progressives have trade mostly wrong too.
It is possumble that a whole new “crisis” could be manufactured, OFG, tying up Congress for decades.
‘Cuz “image” does matter.
So, what do we put on the backside?
Or, we could just put a picture of “God” on the front and “the devil made me do it!” on the backside.
Real possumbilities, here.
;~DW
why not just do short term, low interest rate ones only?
I’ve been pretty spotty on the tubes the last few days, so this might be a stupid question … does Reid’s super duper secret – I’m only going to allow a vote at the witching hour – bill still have the super legislative star chamber committee in it?
You could IMO. I have always wondered why we have 30 year bonds paying 4%+ interest. Maybe the Kochs wanted risk free investments?
Balance budget being added? O man this is fucking bad. I’m going to go outside and scream now.
Obama, Reid and Pelosi are meeting at the White House. Boner and McTurtle just announced that their confident that a deal will be made. McTurtle has been talking to Obama.
Sounds to me that President Meek is about to cave again.
Beautiful day in The City Beautiful. Just got in from the pool. Checking in. Did we default yet?
Well, in theory, we could mint a coin large enough to buy the entire Chinese manufacturing sector, ending the trade deficit. There’s probably an MMT paper on this, no?
Mark Knoller:
McConnell says if Pres decides to reach agreement with GOP leaders, most Dems will follow: “We are in those discussions now.”
I’ve started Part II here:
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2011/07/30/senate-debt-ceiling-watch-party-part-ii/
Join us.
Yes.
Hurry! Time is of the essence! Make up some padding verses for that refrain, get a recording made. and put it out there, now! It could go platinum…
I love it. Low taxes debase the dollar just as surely as high spending. And in the words of Paul Ryan: “There is nothing more insidious that a country can do to its citizens than debase its currency.”
Agreed.
707!
Also, the coin should be physically large to suggest the face value’s ‘worth’ in a concrete way, you know, to satisfy the abstractly challenged crowd. Like transporting those Atlas rockets on huge carriers crawling slower than snails, the large coin could be trucked from the Treasury to the Fed, with all the networks covering it. Maybe FDL’s beowulf could be the announcer and do for MMT what Walter Cronkite had done for NASA.
Yea, the third wayers and the neolibrul Dems (is that redundant?) are not on our side
I’m trying to make my way through a couple discussions at crookedtimber where the main posters are pointing out the deficiencies of neoliberal policies promoted by “left” (my quotation marks) neoliberals, namely Matthew Yglesias and Brad DeLong
The Limits of Left Neo-Liberalism
and
Neo-Liberalism, the Submerged State and the Politics of Nudge
In the second post, Henry mentions an article in the Washington Monthly and a book by Suzanne Mettler’s named The Submerged State
I think this is a discussion that needs to take place on a broader scale
Which is easier to explain to the American public, using the 14th Amendment or coin seigniorage?
To me, with my near illiteracy about the latter, the 14th seems simpler, more direct, clearly indicated by the situation, etc.
Only thing is, Obama wants that Super Congress of the Twelve Caesars sooooo badly, so very, very badly, so he can outdo St. Ronnie in attacking SocSec/MM…. He just might let the default take place, which I would think would be impeachable, as he would not have done his duty to protect the “full faith and credit of the United States,” and would have put millions of people at risk.
Does he have it in him to take an action which can solely be laid at his feet?