I’m surprised that my post, “Bribes Work: How Peterson, the Enemy of Social Security, Bought the Roosevelt Name” has created a bit of a firestorm within what passes for the left wing political blogosphere. It has elicited responses from Andy Rich of the Roosevelt Institute, Roosevelt Institute fellow Mike Konczal, as well as two groups only mentioned in passing in the piece, the Economic Policy Institute and the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.
They all illustrate the famed Upton Sinclair quote, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.” And so it is not surprising that all of them engaged in straw man attacks and failed to engage the simple point of the post: if you have a clear purpose and vision, you do not engage in activities that represent the polar opposite of what you stand for.
These “the lady doth protest too much” reactions reveal how naked careerism has eroded what little remains of the liberal cause in the US. Despite the fact that the left, as does the right, has a moral stance underlying its political positions, operatives on the left have been willing to sell out, not just to make the occasional compromise, but on bedrock principles. Here the fish has rotted from the head; this posture reflects the corporatist-in-sheep’s-clothing stance of Obama filtering through the Democratic party infrastructure.
What has happened with Roosevelt, and to a lesser degree with EPI and the CBPP, is blindingly obvious to those who are paying attention. For instance, Randy Wray wrote on the Roosevelt site:
Sorry but Pete Peterson has NEVER funded any open discussion of deficit issues. He has ALWAYS stacked the deck. While some months ago New Deal 2.0 did allow a modicum of dissent from the deficit hysteria, it has closed ranks with the conventional wisdom, made conventional by the massive funding provided by Pete Peterson’s billions of dollars.
The notion that students who rely on Peterson’s billions will come up with a reasoned position on the deficit, while all anti-Peterson discussion is sidelined from New Deal 2.0 is–shall we say–”quaint”.
If you look at the comments on the Roosevelt post, or the ones by the CBPP, the EPI, and Konczal, you’ll see considerable opposition. That’s a reflection of the frustration of the gap between the policy elites and those they purport to represent. And notice how common it has suddenly become acceptable to use the word “elites”. If you had talked about “elites” even as recently as three years ago, you would have been seen as a wingnut, whether of the Marxist or Alex Jones variety. Why the shift? The man-behind-the-curtains apparatus has become more visible as the concentration of wealth has increased and the corruption purchase of influence has become more open.
Let’s try flipping the right/left wing associations to make what happened crystal clear. Let’s say that George Soros sponsored a high profile conference on how to fund abortions. His organizers call the Catholic Church and say they’d like to hear views of young Catholic officials from across the nation and will pay any such group handsomely to attend the conference and present a paper.
Do you think in an nanosecond they’d be takers?
This comparison isn’t even adequate, since Soros has spread his donations across a broad spectrum of liberal causes, while Peterson has concentrated his considerable spending on a very few pet issues, with eviscerating Social Security and Medicare top of his list. But you get the drift.
Left wing operatives seem unable to grasp what outsiders see clearly: that what advances their resume is often inconsistent with what is in the best interest of the causes they say they believe in. Some face this tradeoff more on an institutional rather than individual level. The EPI and CFPB were both created to counter the right supply side phantasmagoria with fact based analysis. They’ve been truer to the left wing principles than the Hamilton Project infested Center for American Progress. But they depend on Democratic party infrastructure for much of their fundraising. As a consequence, they are often asked to take dives, such as the stance we highlighted in our post, that of supporting an extension of the Bush tax cuts last fall. The payoff was not explicit as in the Roosevelt case, but maintaining good relationships with money sources is as important as grant funding.
The “you need to have a seat at the table” crowd misses how best to steer a path in complex systems. As John Kay points out in his new book Obliquity: Why Our Goals Are Best Achieved Indirectly, one does better by sticking with principles, since it is beyond our capabilities to map a straight path. He compares the performance of companies within a number of different industries who set out to maximize profits against those that set higher and more complex objectives. The ones that had the richer, more aspirational aims did better in financial terms. Apple is a classic example.
And if you put values first, you need to be willing to incur costs, another issue lost on the careerists. The Roosevelt Institute has only recently evolved into a think tank that would promote and defend New Deal principles. One big step forward was getting Elizabeth Warren involved, since she had done landmark research on how middle class families were losing out in the financialization of the economy.
One can debate whether Warren was wise to join the Administration as an advisor, but she is taking an extraordinary amount of punishment to defend what she believes is right. Pretty much anyone else would have taken the hint and announced a date certain for leaving her post as de facto head of the CFPB; Brooksley Born took far less abuse before beating a retreat. But the spectacle of Warren refusing to fold in the face of a Congressional and media onslaught has galvanized the public around her. This is what leadership is supposed to look like and the country is desperate for someone, anyone who isn’t a sellout.
Often the betrayal isn’t even done with bad intent but falling back on habits that might make sense if elite institutions had some concern for the public interest. Let’s look at the Mike Konczal post as an illustration. It’s an odd mix of misdirection, rationalization, and coded ad hominem. His opening sentence depicts me as “unhappy”, thus tagging me as being emotional rather than having a reasoned critique. It also characterizes the critic as someone who doesn’t see the system as legitimate, and thus cannot be trusted as a credible system-supportive messenger.
But that’s precisely the point – my priority is not sustaining a corrupt order, while that is exactly what he is doing. I feel no allegiance to the powerful officials and interests who made decisions, and I believe they owe the public an accounting for the deeply destabilizing and immoral two-tiered system of justice they have foisted on all of us. He is keen to marginalize those who demand answers from our self-appointed guardians of discourse. For instance, his peculiar emphasis on word count is to suggest that people like me are tiresome and irrelevant.
His post is not even an argument, it’s a tribal signal to the insider class that, though he may have liberal sympathies, he can be trusted at crunch time.
The fact that Konczal is in theory aligned with the pinko cause only makes him more valuable to Peterson, not less. If the legitimacy of the system was not at stake, Konczal might be a competent technocrat. But at this moment, at this time, the lack of a moral sensibility is deeply disturbing and potentially dangerous. It is the opposite of Elizabeth Warren, the opposite of valor. It is in fact an argument against moral courage.
Indeed, this extract suggests that Konczal thinks you can somehow be progressive and support Peterson, and he does that by trying to claim I’m not making a moral argument:
There’s an argument to be made that even if the Campus Network could make a strong, progressive budget for the summit it is a moral wrong to participate in this summit. This is usually predicated on the idea to never mention a long-term deficit problem and implicitly on the idea that the budget right now, with all its waste in health care and military spending, is at a progressive optimum. I think this argument is insane because we are not at a progressive optimum, but either way it is not the argument Smith puts forth, and not what I will respond to.
So get this:
1. He accepts the Peterson notion is a long-term deficit problem. That’s explicit. All there is to discuss is the “progressive optimum” in the solution space defined by Peterson and the deficit hawks (and notice the use of the technocrat “optimum”)
2. Konczal is saying I did NOT make a moral critique. I’m not certain how he could have missed that, the post had “bribes” as the first word in the headline and the post proper.
As NC contributor Doug Smith pointed out via e-mail:
Because he either missed that you were speaking about a moral position or because he’s just slick, he goes on to offer a refutation of the moral argument that is a straw man — even to the point of being silly.
Pretty amazing in terms of what this reveals. To Konczal it seems all that exists is Washington DC back room dealing. It’s all about negotiating positions and transactions, and very little about morality. The consequentialist position he accuses you of is of a piece with this. He says, in effect, your critique was grounded solely on proposition that had student network been corrupted it would be seen in their end product. He then goes on to extol their end product as progressive. Hence, arguing that the end product (their budget) was not corrupt, therefore their taking money from Peterson Institute was not corrupting.
He reveals either a stunning lack of insight about human affairs and morality — or a cynical winking of the eye.
Konczal similarly chooses to ignore that Roosevelt could have found a way to engage in this debate without taking the Peterson money or accepting their framing. For instance the students could have protested the Peterson confab; that would likely have gotten more media play than they did by tagging along for his ride. Or Roosevelt and other progressive groups could have had their own forum on budget priorities, as a way to argue that the budget hysteria was wrongheaded but still provided an opportunity for a much more radical rethink of national priorities. By contrast, there’s a tacit, and erroneous either/or in his piece: you either take the Peterson “sweet gig” or you are irrelevant.
But the reality is that the Roosevelt participation was utterly irrelevant save for its PR value to Peterson. It’s simply an ornament that allows Peterson to claim millennial support for his toxic game plan. No one cares what the student paper says; the only reason I bothered dealing with it substantively was to show I had indeed read it and point out how it failed to build on or even acknowledge prior (better) Roosevelt work.
The technocrats are kidding themselves if they think they can optimize anything in system under as much stress as ours. The Mark Buchanan book Ubiquity: Why Catastrophes Happen describes how complex systems are not just unpredictable but also subject to upheaval. Interestingly, you cannot tell what event, like the self immolation of Tunisian street vendor Mohamed Bouazizi, will unleash disruptive change, nor can you predict what direction it will take.
But you can tell when a system has reached a supercritical state, when small events have the potential to produce massive shifts. The escalating efforts of the powers that be to extend their web of control suggests they sense the potential for radical change. But the irony is efforts to prevent small disruptions, like the now-discarcded American forest management policy of preventing small fires, can increase the odds of raging conflagrations when they do occur. And it is impossible to foresee what disruptive actions might cascade into bigger changes. As Johann Hari wrote in the Independent:
A small group of women from Iowa lost their sons early in the Vietnam war, and they decided to set up an organization of mothers opposing the assault on the country. They called a protest of all mothers of serving soldiers outside the White House – and six turned up in the snow. Even though later in the war they became nationally important voices, they always remembered that protest as an embarrassment and a humiliation.
Until, that is, one day in the 1990s, one of them read the autobiography of Benjamin Spock, the much-loved and trusted celebrity doctor, who was the Oprah of his day. When he came out against the war in 1968, it was a major turning point in American public opinion. And he explained why he did it. One day, he had been called to a meeting at the White House to be told how well the war in Vietnam was going, and he saw six women standing in the snow with placards, alone, chanting. It troubled his conscience and his dreams for years. If these women were brave enough to protest, he asked himself, why aren’t I? It was because of them that he could eventually find the courage to take his stand – and that in turn changed the minds of millions, and ended the war sooner. An event that they thought was a humiliation actually turned the course of history.
And that’s why it’s important not to sell out. You can’t know what small action will have broader ripple effects. And in the end, even if you do not succeed in changing the terms of engagement, you have at least stood up for your dignity.





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It seems you’re making progress Mr Smith :)
I’ve admired your work for quite awhile but here all your arguments not only further the argument but builds the case for what many have known all along. This is a moral position. People all over are forgetting what was sold by the corporate careerist position: the value and dignity of human beings. Thank you so much for the terrific reminder!
Yves, thanks so much. I kick in $20/month to FDL and I feel like I’m just flat stealing. If I had any extra el-fundo, I’d be donating to you at naked capitalism. Thanks for all you do.
Most people don’t take a moral or principled stand in their everyday lives dealing with friends and coworkers. And money isn’t even usually a factor in their decisions. Mostly, people don’t want to create an uncomfortable situation.
Thank you for this, Yves. You are the queen of my heart wrt sound, grounded thinking about economics, banking, and related social issues, and a must-read on a multiple-times-daily basis. What I have been missing, in deciding where to put what little contributory money I have, is a sense of who’s really “doing the work” and who’s selling us out for cocktail weenies on the Washington good-fellow circuit. (I joined FDL for that reason: the hope of a good, effective, can’t-be-bought force for good.) As labor unions lose their financial clout (something alluded to in the EPI apologia yesterday) my money becomes, I would think, MORE important to progressive groups, and it’s important to me that they keep their nose clean, so to speak. In fact, if nothing else comes out of this thread, I hope I have a good sense, by its end, of where my money will be most effectively spent. Thank you once again, Yves.
fabulous post. many thanks.
woops! begging your pardon Ms. Smith.
I’ll disappear now
Here’s another commemorative Sinclair quote, for yours & FDL’s efforts:
“You don’t have to be satisfied with America as you find it. You can change it. I didn’t like the way I found America some sixty years ago, and I’ve been trying to change it ever since.” THX.
Heh.
Methinks the sellouts doth protest too much.
Keep is up Yves.
Loved your book, Econned.
Yves,
Just a note from the Eschaton Regulars: Huzzah!
Your piece has been the subject of much positive feedback yesterday and today.
Keep up the good work.
Hi Fire Pups
Thank you for this excellent article, Yves Smith!
I especially appreciate the anecdote at the end that illustrates that we never know what effect the actions of the “small” people can have.
You’ve also very ably demonstrated how compromising our moral values gains nothing but the loss of respect.
Thank you again for a glimmer of true hope for a better future although it will probably be much different than we expect.
karen
Thanks so much, Yves. It’s really, really important to have this conversation.
I remember back in early 2009 when Peterson was scheduled to be the key note speaker at Obama’s first fiscal summit. Out of the blue I was invited on an emergency call with maybe 40 people, mostly liberal economists and other wonks, who had been informed by the White House that this was going to happen. Many even had received written confirmation from the White House about it.
I soon realized why I’d been invited — nobody else was going to say anything publicly about it and risk the ire of the White House, and they knew I didn’t give a shit. So I wrote about it, knowing that the BEST case scenario was that that they’d cancel him and then deny it was ever true, and try to make it look like I’d made the whole thing up:
Hedge Fund Billionaire Pete Peterson Key Speaker At Obama “Fiscal Responsibility Summit,” Will Tell Us All Why Little Old Ladies Must Eat Cat Food
Which was, of course, exactly what happened. They cancelled him, and then White House “anonymous sources” denied the whole thing. But that headline was the birth of the “catfood” meme.
Robert Kuttner finally confirmed in the Washington Post that it was true, and Peterson had been scheduled to speak. But by then the storm had passed.
The point is that many of the people who represent the institutions you’re talking about in these posts were on that call. They all knew the importance of the symbolism of Peterson being the key note speaker at a big White House “fiscal responsibility” confab. To now claim that the symbolism of selling the Roosevelt Institute name off to Peterson means nothing is quite a reversal.
Now you’ve gone and nailed them another time. I predict crickets this time. They have no moral position and no defense.
Has Oprah, like Dr. Cornel West, been prescient enough to become overtly critical of our Sell-Out-in-Chief, yet?
Oprah should Primary the Faker.
we saw it during the healthcare debate and we’re seeing something similar play out wrt SS and Medicare via the deficit terrorist / deficit errorist paradigm (which is actually a right-wing fame).
i think this line of yves is the best thing i’ve read on this phenomena… because in the context of this great piece, it seems to me that this line shows us a way out, if we want to use it, of the divides these issues have created between those who have been accused of betrayal and those who have been accused of bad faith:
1. for those who have been betrayed: recognize the likelihood — actually, work on the assumption — that the betrayal, while real, was not one of bad faith. assume good faith.
2. for those who have been accused of bad faith: do not expect — or worse, demand — that because you acted in good faith, those who have been betrayed will not experience the reality of the betrayal.
That’s a powerful story, Jane. Thanks for all you do.
It appears that Obama intends to march his Party over the cliff once again by bringing on the cuts and pinning it on the Congressional Democrats.
When does Obama hold his meetings with Rove?
Thanks, Yves.
It seems to me that these “fauxgressives” are so hungry for power and access that they’ll do anything to get it.
Having been out of power for the Bush years, I’m sure they thought that they could return to their comfy perches with the ascent of Obama. When forced to choose between “values” [if one assumes for a moment that they have any] and “access,” it’s clear they crave the “access” and all of the power, recognition and other things that are worshipped in their circle.
They are disgusting. Your work is valuable, and their bleatings of protest are an indication of how effective you are.
“And that’s why it’s important not to sell out”
I’ve had that same experience myself, more than once, of which Mr Spock spoke, both in giving and receiving. There is no way to know the impact of anything you do or say in your lifetime and beyond, so do and say what you really mean, not what is convenient, even if what you say might be imperfectly formed.
I have yet to hear anyone on MSNBC such as Ed, RM LoD, even DR or Cent talk about the Dems and Peterson..I have seen (and gaged) David Walker on Morning Joe and all were agreeing with DW’s BS…When my GOP friends start in on my about George Soros I bring up Peterson’s name and none ever heard of him…when I say there is a billionare hedge fund manager who hates SS medicare and medicaid people assume this person would support the GOP,,most people are shocked when I day he supports the Dems! Notice the during the Peterson Conference no one in the Media questioned who PP was or what he agenda is about…the more information that gets out there about PP the better…It is a good sign that the public is not buying the PR and thanks Yves! Very good dign that they are reading the posts and reacting!
This process we’re discussing has been going on a long time and I’m sure that many more people than me are now looking back over the years and assessing how many times they’ve heard the words;
“I’m working for change from within.”
It’s an all-purpose phrase meant to cover a whole universe of principals compromised in the pursuit of status.
The ‘other’ side has better cars, bigger houses and more money, and being a Team Player, Getting with-the-program, being considered a ‘serious’ person, are obviously part of being a ‘mature’ individual aren’t they?
Our parents used to raise us to good employees, work hard, show up on time, do what you’re told, along the way we decided for ourselves that being a good employee also meant taking personal responsibility as opposed to identifying with our fellow workers in a collective sense.
We’ve become a nation of proud, ‘rugged individuals’ who have a healthy distain for those either too stupid, or immature to ‘get with the program, be a team-player, and above all get serious.
Hey, no worries — I’ve made that same boo-boo myself.
But yes, it’s amazing that someone like Yves can cause major Veal Pen groups to feel the need to instantly (and of course disingenuously) react. Three years ago, they wouldn’t have bothered. Now, both Ms. Smith and FDL are obviously seen as threats to the established order that sustains both Pete Peterson and the Roosevelt Institute.
Hi, D! Nice to see you coming over from Big Blue.
Fauxgressives went along with the debt talk and made cuts in government spending. Now the May jobs report shows we lost government-sector jobs, and their right-wing “opponents” are using the May jobs report as a stick to beat them over the head for not doing more to creat jobs during a recession.
It’s hard to make this sh*t up.
Jane, this in itself is one hell of a followup post/coda to Yves’ remarks.
He doesn’t need to meet with Rove; he’s already meeting with Peterson or Peterson’s allegedly Democratic acolytes. When you’re already tight with the organ grinder, why meet with his pet, no matter how well trained it might be?
Thanks, Yves, you give me hope. I recognizes that Obama and the DNC were shifting even further to the right in ’08 and went my own path of supporting down ticket candidates that would hold the line for the “little people” and not sell out our principles.
I take a lot of “heat” for my criticism of this administration’s betrayal of those who voted them into office. I understood the disgust of Independent votes in ’10 when many of them stayed home. They realized that it didn’t matter who was in charge. In states like Wisconsin where it got bad fast, voters took action and to the streets. That needs to catch on in the rest of the country, even in states like NY.
Keep holding their feet to the fire.
Thank you Yves.
It seems these folks have surely gotten the “we’ll invite you as long as you sit quietly and don’t make waves. We might even let you speak as long as you don’t say anything that makes the PTB uncomfortable.
When they try to play like that, they lose for us all.
Great post, Yves.
Well said. Next year, there will be 2008 Obama supporters insisting on the need to vote for Obama in 2012 because, you know, not voting for Obama is a vote for Pawlenty or Romney or whoever. bullsh*t.
Taking personal responsibility in the working environment can be risky, and many times is. But that’s not to say don’t do it.
They did get change from within. Change for the MUCH worse.
Voting for Democrats like Bill Nelson and Wasserman-Shultz does not yield good results. It is difficult to imagine that we’d be facing draconian SS and Medicare cuts with President McCain and Vice Idiot.
The Democrats would have no choice politically but to oppose any cuts.
Here we are with the D’s carrying the ball, intent on cutting “entitlements”.
I resolved to stop voting for the lesser of two evils in ’08. It is more of a wasted vote than not voting at all. When he voted to extend FISA after saying he would filibuster the bill if it were not fixed, I stopped believing anything he said
Obama is no better than Bush or McCain. He just slowed the coming disaster one ot two election cycles.
over at naked capitalism, richard kline has an excellent comment. here’s part of it:
How true, Bush dropped that subject fast. Right now I see little difference between Democrats and Republicans. Harry Reid sounded more like Karl Rove on the renewal of the Patriot Act, he an even bigger disgrace to democratic principles than Obama because he has the power to stop it.
Phoenix Woman,
Though I do not often comment here, I am here every day and admire the work of the many wonderful people here.
Just wanted Yves to know that his work is finding fertile ground.
Tim Bousquet (Moe) mentioned this morning that Yve’s work confirms Chris Hedges’ writing as well.
I am making my way through DEATH OF THE LIBERAL CLASS and just finding it very difficult to disagree with Mr Hedges. . . .
You can’t dislodge the monied class by being polite.
Slowed some, speeded up other pending disasters.
I have to give it to Obama for speeding up “entitlement” cuts.
The Republicans would be about Par on Housing and Jobs.
Anybody seeing any new passenger rail projects underway anywhere?
Rick Scott refused our stimulus.
IMVHO, that’s a very strange response to a moral argument.
Are you trying to say Yves (and we) should not take a moral or principled stand? Are you saying this makes you uncomfortable? That a person should have to be paid to take a stand?
If so, I disagree. That’s why I support Elizabeth Warren. She knows what her principles are and is willing to defend them under a barrage of criticism. If “most people” won’t do this, that’s because most people aren’t leaders. That’s why it’s important to recognise leaders and support them when you find them.
The same can be said of Yves and Jane and Marcy and Jeff Kaye and many others. They are moral leaders. They know what their principles are and they are not going to (ex)change their principles for money.
I think you’re right. They’d be fools to respond, especially since their idea of “response” is to send forth their interns to do hit-and-run diaries and not hang around to even attempt to defend the indefensible from the well-informed criticism of the people they claim to represent.
I’m sorry if I didn’t make it clear that my use of the phrase ‘personal responsibility’ was intended to be understood as a code phrase employed by the PTB to encourage us to see ourselves as individuals first, and foremost and if possible, to further convince us that considering ourselves part of any sort of collective is foolish and a needless waste of effort.
It’s meant to convince us to be the Marlboro Man, as opposed to a Union man.
That really was the “tell” wasn’t it? Most of us justified it in some minimalizing thoughts….Really too bad…though we may not have had a better alternative.
They won’t respond here for a whole variety of reasons, among which is they’re cowards and they know they’ve sold out.
They might respond if one of Peterson’s speech writers rewrote the talking points and made them do it. They might also show up on Fox with Peterson’s talking points.
“Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because both believe in advancing corporate interests by the use of state power.”
–Benito Mussolini
Keeping in mind that definition of fascism, now let’s look at why a lot of working class people despise the “latte’ liberals” which this article so thoroughly excoriates without calling them that name. These people in the institutes you mention do indeed live in bubbles, and they cloak themselves in an air of moral superiority while actually working to advance the corporate interests that seek to destroy what remains of the New Deal, the Great Society, and the very conception of American economic justice.
They adopt “liberal” social positions that most Americans agree with while doing nothing to thwart the economic positions of the corporations who finance their institutes and, by logical extension, their own personal livlihoods. Then they attack anyone who points this out as being ignorant at best and a Republican at worst.
In short, they are hypocritical fascists. That’s even more disgusting than the in-your-face fascists the Republicans have become. That is why they are hated by ordinary working Americans who pay the slightest attention to what is going on.
That is why Harry Truman was, and is, right when he said: “When faced with a choice of a Democrat who acts like a Republican and a real Republican, voters will pick the real Republican every time.”
Speaking of Fox…..wonder if anyone watched Sarah this am…very curious.
Moral principle should make us vote for a third party whenever a Dem is a stooge of corporate America.
Is BT on vacation? I’ve not been online a lot but noticed his absence from some of his regular spots. Anyhow, if he still posts, he should have some choice clips. :-)
Washington in general, and the MSM in particular, depend more on cooperation than any other behavior. Access depends on cooperation. Denial of cooperation more often than not dooms one’s political and/or journalistic career.
The slickest of the cooperators cave only at critical junctures. They build credibility by appearing to support progressive causes most of the time. That increases their usefulness to the PTB — because they can be counted on to fold when absolutely necessary.
One of the ways to render the most potentially troublesome critics impotent, if not completely quiet, is to absorb them into the administration. This guarantees that while they may have a private seat at the table they will not be a factor in critical decisions. One of Barry’s slickest moves was absorbing Warren into the administration — where she cannot be a decisive factor.
One of the things that spending decades in DC teaches a cynic is that one cannot change matters from within.
Nonetheless, personal responsibility is key to my considerations, no matter what. That it becomes a coded phrase needs to be illuminated for what it is and I can think of no better way than to state it at basic in the face of such coding.
Speak Martian, IOW.
completely agree. politeness has nothing to do with it.
Yves’ piece has the same effect as turning the lights on in a kitchen infested with roaches.
They don’t stick around because their survival instinct tells them to get out of sight.
There’s another thing that we’re going to have to deal with related to this matter, and that is the fact that people react very badly to being criticized on such fundamental grounds, they can take some criticism around the periphery, but tell somebody that they are fundamentally wrong and you’ve made an enemy for life.
wow. great comment with lots of food for thought. thanks.
So obvious, yet, I never thought about the power of that code. Very powerful and appealing – (Dog-Given) rugged individualism, personal responsiblity. Make every person an island unto himself. That person is neutered – rendered powerless.
Corporations, OTOH, are Collectives. Hoards of accountants and attorneys with mountains of hoarded tax-free cash. Pols in their pockets and the Supreme Court as ultimate arbiter in their favor.
When the rugged individual – the one-man army, Rambo! – reeking of personal responsiblity – must face that Great Collective, he is easily dispatched.
Unions are their cryptonite. They have destroyed or co-opted most of them.
Right…but I do not know the answer to question…
When I was a 4 buck an hour 20 year old cook in 1980 I couldn’t figure out how Ronnie Raygun blatant lies couldn’t be stuffed back down his lying throat. I had a rapture out of Holyoke Ma to Boston Ma in 1982 and a real job market – and I worked my way into fine dining cooking for 5 years – ’83 to ’88. The Four Seasons Hotel on the Public Garden earned me a paycheck as a cook serf from ’85 to ’87.
I served the yuppie class I had NOT grown up around, having grown up on welfare. I would do campaign stuff to kick it with 20 something females – and in ’84 and ’88 I couldn’t count all the highly credentialed highly titled highly paid highly ego’d yups who’d deign to tell me about political reality and the center and the moderately swinging independents and independently moderate swingers … meanwhile, milken and ollie north and all their buddies were lining their pockets. Hell, I even had the good fortune of living in Tip O’neil’s district when he pulled his biparti$anshit with Raygun so that I get to work till I’m 67 –
BTW – I get to work till I’m 67 NOT as a reasonable adjustment to the realities of longer lives – NOT so that I my surplus can be invested in the young and can be invested in maintaining the infrastructure and can be invested in creating the future and can be invested in taking care of those who had borne the burden before me – I get to work till I’m 67 so the thieving scum of AHIP and Bechtel and Halliburton and Exxon and Blackwater and Pharma and … can keep ripping everyone off, longer.
In ’89 I moved to SEattle, ended up cooking on fishing boats a bit & went back to school & get a math degree & rode the dot.bomb wave over in redmond to jobs keeping email servers running and then database servers running at Microsoft. Given how email dependent msft employees were and are, and given that some of the database servers I worked on housed hr and SEC reporting databases, I was a serf, again, for the yup class of hot shots with fancy degrees, fancy titles, fancy toys, fancy salaries, …
And I lived in Queen Anne, then Ballard – and when I did Dim-0-Crap politics I got to hear over and over and over about how the mean meanies lied and how us nobleerer smarterer gooderer betterer Democrats couldn’t beat lying thieves who had to lie so they could steal – from the same kind of yuppies I had cooked for in Boston or had to grovel for at Microsoft.
I’ve been a math teacher in Seattle for 5 years, and, given the influence of “How Great Thou Art” Gates in this Lilliputian village, the education reform movement is going gangbusters with all kinds of yuppie “Democrats” working for astro-turfs funded by Gates & Broad &&&& the rest of the billionaires boyz club.
Guess what? it is the SAME upper middle cla$$ $et of excuse making $ell 0ut$ ki$$ing Gates a$$!
I put some scalding comments into yesterday’s EPI diary. Doublethink is mastered when you no longer need to consciously think about using doublethink and you just use doublethink.
On a Berring Sea fishing boat, lying yuppie fucks taking the best food and the best bunks and the best jobs would have to worry about being held accountable – and they’d better HOPE they were put in 1 of the best survival suits before they were tossed over the side and told to swim to Dutch.
Hell will freeze over before any branch of the sell outs gets a penny or a second or a vote of mine, ever again.
Robert Murphy
Seattle -
Thanks Yves. I think the perfect example of the type of “liberal” sell out that you are talking about would be Lanny Davis. Oh, and people like Ed Schultz who let people like Davis claim to be liberal or progressive without calling out the obvious lie. Rotten to the core. I have nothing in common with these people except some very superficial policy similarities.
As Nelson Mandela is purported to have said, “Where you stand depends upon where you sit.”
In other words, if Obama and the faux progressives are consistently sitting with the corporate heads and gleefully taking their money, then they stand for their interests, not the middle class.
Isn’t all this compromise, betrayal and double-speak exactly what is always produced by a corrupt and dying entity? Almost without realizing it, most people in positions of some power sense the precarious state of the entity on which they depend and almost instinctively begin contorting themselves to maintain the status quo without actually admitting, even to themselves, that they can’t do that while remaining true to the principles they started with. And then, of course, there are those who never had any principles anyway and therefore have nothing to lose through their contortions. And a very, very few will continue to speak the truth and be completely marginalized.
Thanks for a great post, Yves.
Congratulations on the things you’ve done…a great story. Thanks
They are transparently going after what they see as their rightful slice of the citizens united pie. I couldn’t help but notice when they finally introduced legislation to “address” it, it neither addressed the actual ruling, (instead opting for a very weak “disclosure” rule), nor was there time left in the session to realistically pass such legislation. Calling legislation something it demonstrably is not is now SOP for both parties.
When I was a 4 buck an hour 20 year old cook in 1980 I couldn’t figure out how Ronnie Raygun blatant lies couldn’t be stuffed back down his lying throat. I had a rapture out of Holyoke Ma to Boston Ma in 1982 and a real job market – and I worked my way into fine dining cooking for 5 years – ’83 to ’88. The Four Seasons Hotel on the Public Garden earned me a paycheck as a cook serf from ’85 to ’87. I served the yuppie class I had NOT grown up around, having grown up on welfare.
I would do campaign stuff to kick it with 20 something females – and in ’84 and ’88 I couldn’t count all the highly credentialed highly titled highly paid highly ego’d yups who’d deign to tell me about political reality and the center and the moderately swinging independents and independently moderate swingers … meanwhile, milken and ollie north and all their buddies were lining their pockets. Hell, I even had the good fortune of living in Tip O’neil’s district when he pulled his biparti$anshit with Raygun so that I get to work till I’m 67 —
BTW – I get to work till I’m 67 NOT as a reasonable adjustment to the realities of longer lives – NOT so that I my surplus can be invested in the young and can be invested in maintaining the infrastructure and can be invested in creating the future and can be invested in taking care of those who had borne the burden before me – I get to work till I’m 67 so the thieving scum of AHIP and Bechtel and Halliburton and Exxon and Blackwater and Pharma and … can keep ripping everyone off, longer.
In ’89 I moved to SEattle, ended up cooking on fishing boats a bit & went back to school & get a math degree & rode the dot.bomb wave over in redmond to jobs keeping email servers running and then database servers running at Microsoft. Given how email dependent msft employees were and are, and given that some of the database servers I worked on housed hr and SEC reporting databases, I was a serf, again, for the yup class of hot shots with fancy degrees, fancy titles, fancy toys, fancy salaries, …
And I lived in Queen Anne, then Ballard – and when I did Dim-0-Crap politics I got to hear over and over and over about how the mean meanies lied and how us nobleerer smarterer gooderer betterer Democrats couldn’t beat lying thieves who had to lie so they could steal – from the same kind of yuppies I had cooked for in Boston or had to grovel for at Microsoft.
I’ve been a math teacher in Seattle for 5 years, and, given the influence of “How Great Thou Art” Gates in this Lilliputian village, the education reform movement is going gangbusters with all kinds of yuppie “Democrats” working for astro-turfs funded by Gates & Broad &&&& the rest of the billionaires boyz club. Guess what? it is the SAME upper middle cla$$ $et of excuse making $ell 0ut$ ki$$ing Gates a$$!
I put some scalding comments into yesterday’s EPI diary. Doublethink is mastered when you no longer need to consciously think about using doublethink and you just use doublethink.
On a Berring Sea fishing boat, lying yuppie fucks taking the best food and the best bunks and the best jobs would have to worry about being held accountable would have to worry about meriting a swim – and they’d better HOPE they were put in 1 of the best survival suits before they were tossed over the side and told to swim to Dutch. Hell will freeze over before any branch of the sell outs gets a penny or a second or a vote of mine, ever again.
Robert Murphy Seattle -
first comment garbled.
Amen. There is no better example of selling out than the fauxgressives who are pushing education “reform.”
Not all roaches leave the light. Some try to pretend light is the dark side.
Pieces like this one are why I read FDL and why I will be donating right now. The corporate/plutocrat donors are buying whoever and whatever they can; in contrast, you have earned grassroots support from the progressives who have not bought the “Obama is a liberal” and “Always compromise to the right” memes. Many thanks to you and Yves for providing real, alternative, progressive views.
Thank you so much, Andrew. I hope you’ll consider joining the membership program — we’ve been having a lot of great events and discussions about things like this. FDL member-driven, member-supported, no Pete Peterson.
https://members.firedoglake.com/join/
We’d love to have you.
Pete Peterson and his circle of entrenched economic interests have been amazingly successful at establishing the notion of “shared sacrifice.” After decades of reckless, irresponsible financial behavior in Washington and on Wall St., the government and the Fat Cats who sponsor it are now telling us to tighten our belts and live with less. Multi-trillion dollar wars and de-regulation of the banking sector are the real reasons that the nation is on the brink, yet Peterson is using his fortune to sell the idea that the janitor in Des Moines and the nurse in Peoria need to lower their expectations to help pay for the carnage. And the corporate press is more than willing to carry the message. Oy.
Bravo Jane, Bravo Yves !
Her work
Thanks Ives and Thanks Jane for bring her over to FDL
The more money you need to sell a product the crappier your product is rather than improve the product and create a grass roots buzz about it you create a hollow media sensation its the Fake Boy Band or Girl teen sensation with a few heavily promoted hits vs the Grateful Dead model of tons of loyal fans.
How many teen sensations can still sell out concerts decades later like the Dead can?
Pete Peterson and the Roosevelt institute have a few problem politics tends not to attract teenagers. Witness the polling on the Ryan budget voters do not seem to buy the idea that tax cuts for the rich will create jobs.
Voters for some reason seem unwilling to trade the Medicare they have now for the shaky promise that tax cuts for the rich will create so many good paying jobs that voters will not need medicare.
I think all the GOP cutting Unions Rights, cutting Government jobs, putting kids to work more hours things have convinced voters otherwise.
A media campaign Like Peterson is doing can’t overcome voters who are paying attention to an issue. Jobs are the most important issues to voters right now.
The Left has always wondered how to get disinterested voters involved in politics…it seems that all that was required was that we fail. Now that voters are not fat and happy suddenly they care about politics the Roosevelt institute which I never heard of before this is booking an over the hill boy band that has not had a hit in years to a big a show they can’t hope to fill.
Like you, I’ve done a fair amount of thinking and writing about the fact that brazen selfishness and greed are not survival tactics at street-level, or as you say, out on the ocean.
I think many ‘regular’ people have a very hard time understanding that there really are people in this world that would take it all and leave nothing for the rest, it’s a hurdle that has to be overcome.
It’s very hard to explain to my father and mother for instance, that the President of our country might be taking orders from people who are selfish and greedy in an almost absolute sense.
Thanks, I always believed that principles and moral courage are the things that make everyone unique. It not enough they have taken over the party,now they want to bastardize our ideals and principles for sake of expedient.They know their a storm brewing. It a fool errand to try to get ahead of The Law Of Unintended Consequences. Its like we trapped in a cage with two deranged lions.
Which they see as acquiescent. A variation of mistaking kindness for weakness.
I didn’t get that sense of the comment, at all. Just the opposite.
But once you are past that resistance point, the path becomes very clear…and rather dangerous. Which may account for the resistance in the first place.
I think it was A.C. Doyle, as Sherlock Holmes that said:
“If you have exhausted all Logical possibilities then whatever remains- however illogical- must invariably be the Truth.”
You might call them Rubinites. That is exactly what Bob Rubin espouses: corporate rule, liberal social safety nets–to keep the peasants content.
To extend that, any organization that takes offices in DC is useless or on its way to becoming; and I knew Hillary was done when she accepted a position in the administration. Couldn’t resist, bless her power hungry heart. Addiction is a terrible waste.
Just what is the GOP thinking first you find a scapegoat for the economy like the Nazi’s did the Jews then you invade other countries and take the wealth of the scapegoats and the other countries and give it to your people to build up support for more wars and more Government/Corporate control of everything people give up freedom for security when they don’t have security.
It is important though that outside enemies and scapegoat traitors real and imagined get the blame. Peterson is American and serving the GOP. The GOP cannot make their plan work if they are seen as the one causing the economic insecurity.
Just what is the GOP thinking? Do they want to lose? Peterson can buy the Roosevelt institute and destroy their brand name but he can’t sell this with advertising to anyone but the 30%ers.
He is linking the GOP to the same economic policies that are causing in voters minds economic insecurity.
He is creating an advertising campaign based on the lies GOPers use to justify themselves when they feel guilty about being rich as people lose their jobs and homes.
He and the GOP needs to follow the NAZI game plan of blaming scapegoats and Outside enemies and then taking their wealth and giving it to White Americans. Sheesh we have incompetent villains facing us….if they were not so rich and did not control the media we would not even be having this talk.
Our Elite is so Reverse Darwin that stupid and failure does not stop them from continuing their failed economic policies, their failed wars, etc.
Instead they just try and convince us the nakid Emperor is wearing Clothes that scream success.
( Empires fall when the Elite are insulated from their failures to provide for their subjects. ) ( I’m paraphrasing Jared Diamond )
thanks –
I went to see Howard Dean in May of ’03 for dating purposes – I LOVED his speech and the place was on fire.
In Nov. 2006 I got to see our congresscritter, Jim McD, tell the 36th Legislative District Democrats how “impeachment was off the table” cuz … we needed 60 votes … ha ha ha.
To think these EPI guys can justify the December tax sell out cuz … the unemployed were help hostage –
And along come the Gates a$$ ki$$er$.
I’m fed up with the lot of them.
BTW – I signed my name, cuz I’d hate for the Seattle Democrats who know me to think that I’m afraid of looking them in the eye and calling them on their decades long bullshit.
rmm.
:))))))))))))))) Thanks
The so-called education reform movement now consists of a small group of elitist assholes — who know NOTHING about education and only talk to one another — dodging all the data that shows they’re completely full of shit.
Oh, and the hanger-on “think tanks” scrambling for their money.
I’ve been reading “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court” and Twain rails on about the Catholic Church abusing the Beatitudes to turn people into serfs and slaves –
I’ve been listening to this yuppie cla$$ for decades tell me how we’re noblerer and gooderer and smarterer and betterer than those mean meanies who … [insert 40 10 syllable words here], and, meanwhile, us working stiffs in the bottom 80%+++ have:
- #1. less retirement security,
- #2. less health care access security,
- #3. less income security through the job market,
- wow! #3 = #1 and #2 !!
but, heaven forbid we’re blunt about our $alon living dilettantes selling us out, over and over!
ugh.
rmm.
small group of elitist assholes
It’s all about the $500 billion spent on education today, they want to make sure the steal and destory what ever is left over of the middle class. Oh raise the next generation that can’t think for themselves, serfs
How depressingly true.
I know I’m late, but just had to jump in to say that THIS is what a progressive voice sounds like.
Our beliefs, our passions, are based on a set of MORALS which no true progressive will sell out on, negotiate with, or compromise on. There are, of course, areas where compromise and negotiation are relevant, but NOT on our most basic principles.
Thank you Ms. Smith. For your wonderful post, for your dogged determination to point out the sell outs, and mostly for sticking to those principals that make progressivism the best and most optimal solution for a fair and just society.
Transparency was over before it started with the back-room deal at the DNC before the convention that disenfranchised the voters of FL & MI. The nomination was a sealed deal that day and I was totally done with the Democrats and the DNC. They haven’t received a cent from me since, nor a moment of my time. Who knows what kind of president Hillary would have been. I can’t imagine her being as bad as Obama
Thanks for this, Yves. The analysis and the discussion. Stimulating and encouraging.
And thank you for including the excellent example of Elizabeth Warren as a leader for these times. I keep saying: “Do not understimate Elizabeth Warren.”
Elizbeth Warren, Jane Hamsher, and Yves Smith! That’s my kind of leadership.
Yves,
You don’t say much about EPI so I’ll just respond to your one claim, that somehow “But they depend on Democratic party infrastructure for much of their fundraising.”
I’m not sure where you get your information or what you think you know. As the person who knows where every dollar for EPI has come from for two decades I’m mystified, because I don’t recall getting any help from the Democratic Party infrastructure. Was that what we were after when we fought NAFTA or the China deal in the late 90s, when we’ve criticized Obama and Clinton.
In fact, EPI has a minuscule base of ‘major donors’, the rich people who support the Dems. Similar with CBPP. We don’t get corporate support (check out the info on our website), so what the F are you talking about? I feel like I’m in the fact-free zone of a debate with the wingnuts. If you really want to know the facts, get in touch with me.
As for Randall Wray…..one can readily compare the budget plan EPI released last November and the one released as part of the Peterson Summit. They’re nearly identical, with the latter more specific. We urge higher deficits in the short run, we deny there’s an immediate ‘deficit crisis’. In fact, you can see me saying that in last year’s summit where I had to debate Rivlin and Ryan and others. I thought the first summit was quite unbalanced, but the recent one was better (though not what I would have presented, for sure).
Larry
Thank you, Yves.
A sublime assessmnet.
The comments here are equally penetrating, perceptive, and terribly necessary.
FDL is one of the, as yet few, but critically important, “places” where the “conversation”, morally necessary to the survival of civil sociery, is consistently, regularly, honestly, and reliably being encouraged and advanced.
FDL, or more precisely, its many contributors, are steadfast in their understanding of two very central human realities in the world which we all share: (1)that forward movement for our society and for humanity in general is directly tied to the experience and reality of individuals – that true “national security” is the personal well-being of ALL of the people, not merely of a few or, even, of the many, but of the individual, of each individual, flesh and blood, person … for it is the individual, working, co-operatively together, with other individuals which is the true and only source of reasonalbe and humane power for our species, and (2) that, in the process of living a present and aware, conscientious and intentional, fullfilling, productive, and meaningful life one must, as Southern Dragon daily reminds us, “Never Give Up!”
The successful “product” of truly advancing the nature and the quality of the conversation is, simply, trust.
The value of trust, of being trusted, cannot be over-rated for it is premised not upon questions of opinion, but upon matters of fact.
The entire community which is FDL has established trust.
This confers the power to influence “what” is brought to the larger conversation, as well as “how” such information, perspective, or “philosophy” is presented within that discussion.
“Transparency”, or providing the opportunity of clear understanding, must be seen as part of what builds and maintains genuine trust.
In that regard, I add my concerns to the seeming “disappearnace” of Blue Texan, and hope that some clarity may be forthcoming.
Thank you, FDL.
DW
Boy, howdy; what a great thing you stirred the wasp-nest, Yves! (But I thought you weren’t gonna read at NewDeal 2.0 until after the weekend.) ;o)
Don’t blame you; I would have been writing in my head all night long.
“This is what leadership is supposed to look like and the country is desperate for someone, anyone who isn’t a sellout.” So right, and so like the chants in Wisconsin: “This is what Democracy looks like!”
Thanks for everything, Yves; your site is A+, and the commenters are the smartest on the web, IMO.
Amazing. Barack, in the White House less than a month, was already planning to loot Social Security. Their conspiracy was already using the tactics we saw in the Health Care debate, Lies, Damn Lies and Betrayal. Obama, the Peterson Puppet, will continue to betray the American people.
We should also mention that Peterson is one of the biggest War profiteers and warmongers. He strongly pushed buying off the Corporate Press. That succeeded and only pro-war stories are allowed on corporate electronic news with dozens of stories disappeared.
He used to Council of Foreign Relations to falsely accuse Saddam of attacking the WTC on 9-11. I guess Peterson wanted to “frame” Saddam to divert attention from the real conspirators of 9-11.
Peterson got $600 million for that caper, from insurance on WTC 7. He is using his terror profits from 9-11 to finance the War Against Social Security.
Yves, thanks. And hang in there – most of these people don’t seem to give a tinker’s damn that Obama is “saving us” by taking apart the last of the New Deal, but they will not like being called on it.
Jane posted the other day that BT was on vacation. Is this the “disappearance” of which you speak?
Ah yes, Thank you, OFG.
Much appreciated!!!
;~DW
Beautifully done, Yves. Thank you.
Yves, your excellent article is posted over at Atrios.
Well done.
Process is vital. Appearance is as important as substance, and the two must be consistent, because so much of public debate and persuasion takes place in shorthand.
An institution that claims to be built on its support for Rooseveltian economics – economics for the common man, not the business owner – cannot responsibly accept money from Pete Peterson. Would B’nai B’rith accept a large donation from Germany’s largest neo-Nazi organization?
That is not to say that Peterson or the Kochs (and their funding of Randian moles at Florida State and elsewhere) are neo-Nazis, only that their priorities are antithetical to the interests of the worker and the common woman. It is to say that groups of entirely opposite histories and purposes cannot fund each other while appearing to remain credible or true to their purposes.
And thank you, Yves, for your commentary here and at your home site. It fills an enormous gap in knowledge and criticism for the informed reader. That your critics are so personal is a great indicator that your comments are accurate and plain spoken, and that they pose a threat to the PTB.
By definition, change can only ever come from outside something.
So in the same way that DC had to work for decades before a cynic would learn, DC continues to try to teach the country outside it, in the hope that one day we all might awaken.
Nowhere is it more critical than in DC to “get with the program”, if one wants to remain an “insider”, to be eligible for and to be groomed for advancement. The idea that one’s support is conditional, that it depends on policy and program deliverables, seems to have left the building along with Elvis. That expectation remains essential, however, for an honest relationship in politics, in parenting, in marriage and in any other walk of life. Without it, you’re a doormat doomed to Rodney Dangerfield levels of no respect.
larry, just speaking for myself here… but there was NO representation at the peterson conference to say “THERE IS NO DEFICIT CRISIS” — which is NOT the same thing as saying “we deny there’s an immediate ‘deficit crisis’” and especially when the peterson foundation’s focus is long term and they are targeting SS and medicare.
in addition, there was NO representation at the peterson conference to challenge the basic premises of the concept of “fiscal sustainability” and to explain why the deficit fear mongering is such a danger, not just to the usa, but also to the world.
agree or disagree with james k. galbraith re “fiscal sustainability” (and wray, mosler, mitchell and others), their positions would also have to be included in any OPEN discussion of deficit issues. has the peterson foundation ever funded any such thing? if not, and i think not, then randy wray’s statement is factually correct and reference to epi’s various budget proposals is totally irrelevant to the statement quoted by yves… unless, that is, epi had represented the missing positions, which indeed they did not. deficit doves do not represent the position of those who challenge the deficit dove position.
“And that’s why it’s important not to sell out. You can’t know what small action will have broader ripple effects. And in the end, even if you do not succeed in changing the terms of engagement, you have at least stood up for your dignity.”
What a wonderful, telling vignette! Thanks for this, Yves, and thanks, Jane, for reminding us at 11 of your deft twist to oust P. Petersen from that early-days White House $$$ confab.
Yesterday, at the Democratic Convention in Lowell, Mass., political figure after political figure said that it was essential to re-elect Obama in 2012. Now, Mass. Dems have produced a terrific array of 2012 Senate hopefuls, each aiming to give Scott Brown a one-way truck ride next year from D.C. to Boston. All spoke at yesterday’s convention.
Former CERES president and Global Reporting Initiative co-founder Bob Massie, http://www.bobmassie.org, in particular stood out. I’d call City Year co-founder Alan Khazei, http://www.alankhazei.com, a great second. The others at least sounded more than good enough. The best line of the day came from the Cornell-trained engineer who asked our votes for “someone who knows the difference between hairspray and nuclear fallout.” Not a one wants to “reform” Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid, or to bail out fraud perpetrator banksters, or to extend tax cuts on the rich, or do any of the various baneful things that Obama has pushed or perpetrated while in office.
Our new State Treasurer, Steve Grossman, announced his imaginative plan to bring Commonwealth money back from abroad and out of the huge bankster banks and invest it in a consortium of smaller banks all over the state — on condition that they lend it in the hard-hit Mass. cities being developed as gateways, and with an emphasis on small, women-owned, and minority-owned businesses. The program starts next month. Grossman is also getting emergency financing to rebuild our tornado-smashed Mass. schools pronto.
Deval Patrick was as inspiring as ever, coming down hard not only on our outstanding Mass. record in job growth but on why our communities are vital. The tornado survivors with whom he’d talked last week were all surrounded by neighbors. Do you understand that? he asked. Community. His deeds in office have as far as I know matched his words. So his words still have power to inspire.
Practically nothing that Obama has done resonates with what we’re doing in Massachusetts. It’s as if he lives on a different planet entirely, some parallel world. Is this not clear to everyone? Apparently not. It was sad to see the knee-jerk support for him on that state Dem. party stage in Lowell yesterday.
All of which is to say that I’ll work hard to beat Scott Brown but cannot contribute to, work for, or vote for Obama again. Maybe all I’ll have for it is my dignity. If so, OK. Thanks, all, for articulating this so well.
There’s no “disappearance” of Blue Texan. He’s on vacation. We’ve said so, multiple times, in the comments. I’m pretty sure he did too.
How do these crazy rumors start?
Thanks for the piece.
Very informative.
Ah yes, the slippery slope. I in no way defend their stances. FDR is rolling over in his grave. And if he was alive, he would throw up every meal he ever had because this contrary to FDR’s message. 180 the wrong way.
“We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace—business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.
They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.
Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me—and I welcome their hatred.”
The “old enemies of peace”.
Look at that list: “business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering”.
He fought them back. Back then, can you imagine how hard that was? Can you people understand what he did? He went toe-to-toe with the PTB, AND ACTUALLY WON!!!
He welcomed their hatred, because that was one of the signs he fought for the people. FOUGHT FOR THE PEOPLE!!!
And why? Why him? He wasn’t one of us. He was one of them. So why?
From the movie Gladiator, “Gracchus: I don’t pretend to be a man of the people. But I do try to be a man for the people.”
That’s the difference. That’s not bravado or ego. That’s courage. That is integrity. That is everything JC stood for – peace, love, and help the poor.
DEFEND THE WEAK, PROTECT THE INNOCENT.
That’s empathy. That’s compassion. That’s a position that we are all equals. Both JC and FDR knew it.
Neither trumpeted selfishness or profit. They both warned of the monied interests. They sought to do what the PTB are against. That’s why they are remembered. Not because they were one of us by position. They were one of us by empathy, compassion, and basic decency.
“The very employers and politicians and publishers who talk most loudly of class antagonism and the destruction of the American system now undermine that system by this attempt to coerce the votes of the wage earners of this country. It is the 1936 version of the old threat to close down the factory or the office if a particular candidate does not win. It is an old strategy of tyrants to delude their victims into fighting their battles for them.”
Yes, it is, and unfortunately, this tactic has finally worked.
For F sakes, we were once the beacon of light. Not perfect, but the path we once took was looked upon by the people of the world as just and deserving of applause. And now how do they look at us? As just? Deserving of applause?
Maybe fear. We are now run by the same people that JC and FDR warned about. And like many, “acclimating” to this new system of greed and war, selling out is not just an option, but a necessity. When in Rome …
You guys are by no means even close to the worst, but before the cussing begins, I’m seeing Boing Company and Pfizer on the “donor acknowledgment” page (p. 25) of the EPI 2008-2009 annual report. And on the bottom of the “About” page it says: http://www.epi.org/pages/about_the_economic_policy_institute/
I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with that, but the high dudgeon about Yves’ statement seems misplaced.
Moreover, while EPI isn’t an arm of the Democratic party, it operated on a budget of $6.5 million that year. Again, good for you, nothing wrong with that. But that list of donors is awfully Democratic-party aligned, and it’s pretty easy for someone at the White House to pick up the phone and cut off many if not most of those funding sources if they were of a mind to do so. Especially when it comes to the foundations and the big donors. As we both well know, it would not be the first time that happened.
Yes, EPI has been critical of the White House and the President. But I don’t think you can deny that there’s a risk in that. I understand the need to pay people, and the difficulty involved in raising the money to do so. Especially if you’re not riding the Third Way/DLC corporate cash express. I think Yves’ larger point remains: that the ability to raise that kind of budget becomes difficult if not impossible if you’re on the outs with the Democratic establishment.
Thank you, Jane, for respondingto my concerns.
I’ve not been reading or commenting much of late, here at FDL, missing your comments and Blue Texan’s, as well, in my absences.
I noted, on Monday, last, that BT was not in his usual “spot”, and assumed that BT was off for the day. I observed that BT was not “there” for the rest of the week and began to “wonder”, having missed those comments made by you and by others.
Frankly, my concern was that, BT, like Rayne seems to have “been”, was simply “gone”.
I understand how such rumors as these must vex and apologize to you, Jane, as well as to the rest of the FDL community for prolonging the questions and adding to the time you have all invested in clarifying the confusion …
I deeply appreciate the patience, the tolerance, and the understanding which this site’s owners, along with rest of the FDL community, demonstrate, moment by moment, every single day.
DW
Matt “The Ydiot” Yglesias is very important and very busy licking CAP ass today. It seems to him that there is nothing – absolutely nothing – that is so immoral that it cannot be made rationally acceptable to him. I do have a proposition to test his analysis which involves his mother, which I will offer him if he stops requiring social media ensnarements to participate in the conversation.
BT is on the front page right now, and I’m sure he’ll appreciate your concern, so go say hi: http://firedoglake.com/2011/06/05/yes-we-get-it-already-a-republican-could-beat-obama-in-2012/
Rayne quit. Quite suddenly. I was sorry to see her go, I like Rayne a lot. But there was no big mystery behind it. Sometimes people just move on to do other things. If they feel like saying something about it, they do. If they don’t, I respect that too.
FWIW Ms. Smith and Ms. Hamsher….I am an avid reader and mostly lurker of both sites. After a hectic week and Saturday I read this post first over at NC and now here…so I decided to log in to just let you both know…how important and how much I appreciate your voices on this issue. I strongly feel there is no one with a bully pulpit to represent my voice (the voices of the masses) and what better than to have two very talented,extremely smart and yes morally righteous women to lead the cause and speak for me.
Yes I believe I represent the silent majority, the one who agrees wholeheartedly with you but the one with no power (or should I say enough money) to have a say in what actually happens in this country anymore. Please understand I’ve got your backs. There are many individuals out here, frustrated beyond belief at how we working class stiffs are being used and abused by the PTB and MOTU, and we all understand clearly that the only way this very broken system called “democracy Americon style” will ever even begin to change is to buck it by speaking out against it. Please you’ve got your principles right on this one…and the louder they push back the closer to the truth you are speaking. Thank you..thank you. Do not stop speaking out..you speak for me.
Keep speaking for me…
Jane,
I never said we never received a dime from a corporation. I, in fact, said we receive 5% or less. Try finding another year where we thank Boeing. And, Pfizer, is a check that Jacob Hacker (your hero of the public option, I would assume and hope) signed over to us. Both were small amounts of money.
It is ridiculous for EPI to be attacked as sucking up to the Democrat establishment for fear of our losing funding. We’ve pulled no punches. Should I accept no funding from unions because they tend to favor Democrats?
I’m not sure what the larger point is. But we suffer in funding because of the positions we take and don’t benefit from them. We were not favored in the Democracy Alliance because we support unions and don’t salute free trade. No money, so be it.
I don’t agree completely with Jamie Galbraith’s and R Wray’s position on deficits (i.e., they never matter)but I/we do agree with them and say everywhere that this is not the time to lower the deficit. I said that on the panel at the Peterson Foundation summit last year–go look at the video. I said there was no impending crisis because of the deficit and said that we actually did have a major crisis–the jobs crisis–that we should be talking about. Alice Rivlin belittled me. I can take it.
Sorry, I don’t feel like EPI should be assailed falsely by people that call themselves progressives.
Larry
Yves’ recitation of Upton’s Sinclair’s quote,
is remarkably similar to
An encapsulation of moral relativism known as Miles Law whose practice in American society seems to be surpassed only by their professed rejection of it.
Ugh.
Oh man.
That’s only half your vote. The other half is voting against Obama for someone who has the best chance of beating him. 3rd parties just don’t cut it in our system of winner take all. Sure at the local level, especially with IRF voting, they can work. Anything more I don’t see it.
This is why I hope some real ignorant assclown gets the R nomination. They all fall into that category, but Palin is real poster child for that, compared to a slicker Romney who would not differ from Obama by all that much although he is hobbled by his religious cult background.
If a Palin gets in, woo-hoo!! All bets are off! Let people really see the what the PTB think of this country and its masses when they work her like puppeteer with their fist up its ass yet have to filter their schemes through the dull controls of the Palin persona. Let them, and the clueless masses, choke on it because I think that’s the best chance of breaking the system enough to wake enough up in a short enough amount of time. Like Scott Walker did in Wisconsin.
What Obama’s accomplished is to buy more time for the MOTU’s lackeys and media to float the memes and brainwash the masses ever more. To convince them why it’s okay to again take the parking cone, this time with rusty nails, up our collective asses and be thankful we did it!
So, don’t just vote against Obama, really make it count and try to get him out. Still, I understand if you go 3rd party. I vomit slightly each time I think of a President Palin, but I love this country’s founding ideas and hopes enough to try to get it back in a way I think can be done. Shock therapy an people powered protests and a little revolution, ala Wisconsin.
From Bill Clinton’s third way to Obama’s “bipartisanship” we’ve seen true progressive values sold out time after time after time. And it’s especially frustrating when you realize that it doesn’t need to be this way politically.
Obama ran a very progressive campaign. It’s why I couldn’t wait to vote for him and it’s why the Republicans went even further batshit insane the second he took office. They feared the progressive reforms he campaigned on.
And he won. Decisively.
But it was all lies, as he’s proven time and time again. From selling out his own health care bill to upping the ante on trashing the Constution and claiming that he, as President, has the authority to order the assassination of US citizens with no due process, we’ve seen folks falsely claiming to represent progressive values only to sell them out.
So it shouldn’t come as a surprise when already gunshy progressives assail another organization that claims to be progressive for echoing right wing talking points (tax cuts equal jobs) and taking dollars from well known right winger, Social Security hating, anti-progressive, Peterson. And to completely dismiss progressive fears that the particular tax cuts in question doubled as an indirect assualt on Social Security was practically begging for such criticism from progressives who are rightly wary of which “progressive” organization will become the next one to join the “veal pen.”
You made the choices you made and now you don’t get to not be held accountable for those choices. You lie with dogs, you get fleas, even if you’re not a dog.
Elizabeth Warren, Jane Hamsher, Yves Smith. Telling it like it is.
Hear! Hear!
One of the things I like most about Jane is the whole arc of the story here at FDL and the way she has worked through her own dismay through all the broken promises of 2006 and 2008 to truly reveal, describe, and name what is really going on. Yes, it was important create an honest narrative about how the whole health care “reform” deal went down but Jane has gone on to show that this is a dynamic that is repeated over and over again.
I think it’s amazing. And I wonder where we would be without the knowledge this has generated. We’d be captive ourselves to the narrative that we have to vote for the least worst option, rather than now be working as a community to truly answer “where do we go from here?” knowing full well where ‘here’ really is.
Well said!! I will not discount EPI, but will take a harder look when trying to understand some of their analysis.
When the DLC fights alienated liberals on the left harder than it does its lifelong opponents on the right, it’s hard not to feel aggrieved and to wonder on whose side the Democratic leadership sits. It’s not, apparently, the same one its base and Main Street America sits on.
That phenomena illustrates, I think, that much of today’s conflict has shifted from left-right to insider vs. outsider. Put another way, the interests of those who want social justice, economic fairness and the law applied similarly to all (who have been labeled by insiders as unSerious, unPragmatic, purist extremists) against those already tremendously wealthy and their courtiers in government, business, and think tanks.
It is the urge to pay the bills by attempting to become insiders that has made liberal critics wary of progressives that accept money from the most powerful forces arrayed against them. In that battle, as in the courts, in marketing, in business, in government, appearances count as mightily as substance.
i have no problem with honest disagreement. in fact it’s in discussions with people who disagree with me that i probably learn the most.
but, please try to understand that that’s not what is going on here!
wray wrote: “Pete Peterson has NEVER funded any open discussion of deficit issues. He has ALWAYS stacked the deck.”
you objected by writing that “As for Randall Wray…..one can readily compare the budget plan EPI released last November and the one released as part of the Peterson Summit. They’re nearly identical, with the latter more specific. We urge higher deficits in the short run, we deny there’s an immediate ‘deficit crisis’. ”
my objection to your first statement was that you were missing the point — that peterson doesn’t fund open discussions and that epi’s presence didn’t change that fact.
so, first you write out of your narrative the work of progressive economists who were not included in the summit and whoe peterson has never included — and no one thinks that he ever would.
now, it’s even worse because you are misrepresenting their work. i’m quite sure that galbraith and wray don’t think and don’t write about deficits that “they never matter.” i know this for a fact, first because i’m quite familiar with what they have been saying (you might take a look at the archive of last year’s fiscal sustainability teach-in and counter-conference) and second because paul krugman has make the same mistake (more than once) from his blog at the new york times. i’ve even posted a couple of diaries here at myfdl about that. galbraith et al. have responded again and again to correct that misunderstanding…. which, by the way, you probably wouldn’t have to this day if the peterson summit actually had been and OPEN discussion
but it wasn’t. that’s the point.
and, btw, you really should read the comment wray wrote over at nd2.0, because if you did you would find that he didn’t condemn anyone for taking the money (he did for how it was spent):
so, here is my request: please…
* no more writing progressive economists out of the picture!
* no more helping the peterson foundation exclude progressive economists from the debate by lending EPI’s good name to the event and then pretending yourself that EPI’s presence means it was an OPEN discussion when it wasn’t.
* no more misrepresenting the work of progressive economists by claiming their position about deficits is that “they never matter” when that is NOT their position.
amen. and it’s not just the DLC.
Thank you so much, reader. That was really lovely. And very much appreciated.
I think this is an excellent point. Andrew Rich’s defense on New Deal 2.0 said that Roosevelt participated in this project in order to further open discussion. It wasn’t open. And it granted to Peterson the right to be the arbiter of the conversation. It legitimized his entire effort.
The problem isn’t accepting Peterson’s money. It’s that what he wanted in exchange for it was far to high.
It’s very tricky avoiding becoming a captive to large donors, as it is when one becomes a supplier to Wal-Mart. The odd, unsolicited donation is nothing. A large donation would create marketing issues that would have to be dealt with, as it implies a quid pro quo, especially when the donor and donee have obvious contrary interests.
When a large donor begins demanding control, it can become hard to give up money on which one has begun to rely, especially if a board considers turning the money away to be looking a gift horse in the mouth and to be needless doubling the board’s work. After all, the donor only wants a little control. The Kochs wanted only control of a single economics institute at Florida State, not the entire dept. But that changed quickly.
Billionaires become billionaires because they are acquisitive and extraordinarily control-oriented. It takes a lot more than a savvy development director to control their interest in an organization. It takes a savvy director and a top-notch board that can anticipate and plan for the time when they might have to say “No”, when the price – apparent or real – of accepting the money becomes too high. Boards are also sometimes fickle and lazy, and plain exhausted when it comes to raising funds from and alienating donors they interact with commercially or socially.
The Kiplingesque limerick about riding on the back of a tiger is apt. Getting off once one reaches the other side is a difficult proposition no matter how agreeable the way across.
i think that’s exactly right. thank you jane.
yes. i agree. and not just financially captive.
1) if we’re honest with ourselves (which is probably the hardest person to be honest with), we know how bias can work to undermine our thinking and worse, our judgement. this is human nature and how human minds work. no one, imo, should be condemned for being human. the thing to do is to acknowledge what happened, make amends as we are able, and try to learn from the experience. i don’t, yet, see EPI or RI doing that. i hope they will (i also understand that the process can take some time).
2) progressives taking money from the peterson foundation gives the appearance of a conflict of interest. in these times, trust is a very precious thing… there’s just too many good reasons we’ve learned not to trust our most important political, legal and economic institutions. appearances can be the message even when that is not the intention. safer, imo, to just not go there and risk our reputations for trustworthiness — unless we’re going to make a point of challenging the hand that feeds us (as wray suggested EPI should have done).
i’m not trying to claim it’s always so clear cut what is the best path to take… but this whole peterson gig looks wrong from so many angles, i find it hard to believe that RI or EPI are shocked by the response. and that, i guess, is probably a sign of what can happen to our judgement (see my #1 above).
It is troubling that EPI and the RI seem to avoid addressing the issue of apparent conflicts of interest. They are just as real in journalism or public policy advocacy as in the law; the appearance of impropriety is cause for recusal as much as a real conflict, as is the duty to avoid both.
That Peterson or others might have compromised specific research is not the only or the most important issue. Unwritten rules are obvious to everyone but the newbie; self-censorship is routine, even if your job does not directly depend on it.
Thank you, once again, Jane, for responding.
Your forthright manner and fundamental respect of and for others, on all levels and your ready willingness to engage in reasonable discussion about those many things which affect and concern us all, in all the myriad realms of your life and work, the genuine honesty of it, are but three of your manifold powers of genuine leadership, they are among the many reasons why you are trusted and why others are willing to share their understandings, feelings, questions, dreams and hopes with you.
People listen to you and they “hear” what you say, as well.
All of which, I’m certain, you realize … and understand.
Much, much more power to you, your thoughts and ideas, to the shared vision of the world you are helping us all to realize, together.
You manifest such power most wisely.
It is always appreciated.
DW
i’m posting the following at the request of Stephanie Kelton (Associate Professor of Macroeconomics, Finance, and Money and Banking, Senior Scholar at The Center for Full Employment and Price Stability (CFEPS), University of Missouri – Kansas City, Research Associate at The Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, and blogger at New Economics Perspectives), received via email:
………………………………………………..
Larry Mishel of the EPI said: “I don’t agree completely with Jamie Galbraith’s and R Wray’s position on deficits (i.e., they never matter) but I/we do agree with them and say everywhere that this is not the time to lower the deficit.”
This is a total mischaracterization of Galbraith and Wray. Jamie, for example, said in his brilliant “In Defense of Deficits” (published in The Nation):
“It may seem like homely wisdom, especially, to say that “just like the family, the government can’t live beyond its means.” But it’s not. In these matters the public and private sectors differ on a very basic point. Your family needs income in order to pay its debts. Your government does not…. It’s true that government can spend imprudently. Too much spending, net of taxes, may lead to inflation, often via currency depreciation–though with the world in recession, that’s not an immediate risk. Wasteful spending–on unnecessary military adventures, say–burns real resources. But no government can ever be forced to default on debts in a currency it controls.”
And Randy wrote a piece for New Deal 2.0 entitled “Deficits Do Matter, But Not the Way You Think” http://www.newdeal20.org/2010/07/20/deficits-do-matter-but-not-the-way-you-think-15355/ so how on earth can you claim he believes otherwise?
You are being dishonest when you purport to set yourself apart from these progressive voices by claiming that they have made a crazy argument they have not made. The MMT position is not so different from yours. If you can recognize that the US cannot become insolvent as long as debts are denominated in US dollars, then we should band together and speak with one (powerful) voice instead of criticizing the opposition for positions they do not hold.
-S. Kelton
A few more and final comments…
Selise, appreciate your comments. I definitely know what Jamie and Randall say and I simply disagree with them. There’s plenty of progressive economists who also disagree with them, and some who don’t.
I make no claim that the Peterson Summit is a balanced event. i do claim that neither my particpation last year, nor my research directors’ particpation this year, or our partner, tamara draut from demos, were in any way censored, self-censored, or limited in any way. I would suggest you look at last year’s panel, starting around the 42nd minute:
http://www.c-span.org/Events/Peter-Peterson-Foundation-Event-on-Budget-and-Deficits/17777-1/ and see me challenge the deficit-crisis perspective.
To all FDLers, Feel free to closely monitor our work (which would require you actually read what we’ve done already) and see if anything changes in how we approach budget policy. You won’t find anything indicating our fundamental values and analysis has shifted. Read our budget work and then judge whether you feel we have a progressive analysis. Jan Schakowsky and Andy Stern used it in their dissents/plans on the Bowles-Simpson deficit commission, and the Progressive Caucus used our work in developing the People’s Budget (which, to my chagrin, started reducing the deficit in the first year, contrary to our advice).
Larry Mishel
Larry Mishel
Larry,
If you will, please indulge me. You said:
“I definitely know what Jamie and Randall say and I simply disagree with them.”
Jamie says:
“Your family needs income in order to pay its debts. Your government does not…. It’s true that government can spend imprudently. Too much spending, net of taxes, may lead to inflation, often via currency depreciation–though with the world in recession, that’s not an immediate risk. Wasteful spending–on unnecessary military adventures, say–burns real resources. But no government can ever be forced to default on debts in a currency it controls.”
Where, specifically, do you disagree?
-S. Kelton
completely agree.
but still, for me, what matters most are the voices not heard (especially as i’m persuaded that they are the ones who best understand the macroeconomics of fed govt deficits, taxes and the like). as jane wrote above:
EPI and RI, by their participation and the manner of their participation, contributed to this.
it’s so very hard for progresses to get heard… even by other progressives. bad enough that peterson does it…. the last thing we need is for progressive to join in. we’re stronger when we support each other’s right to be heard, even when we disagree.
Just to add to your very good points selise, there’s this piece by Randy Wray at ND20: http://www.newdeal20.org/2010/07/20/deficits-do-matter-but-not-the-way-you-think-15355/ And also this one about deficits and the external sector of the economy. It’s pretty plain that Randy doesn’t believe that deficits never matter.
As for Jamie, Paul Krugman tried to attack MMT and Jamie with exactly the same canard that Larry Mishel uses here. It’s instructive to look at the lengthy exchanges which make perfectly clear that Paul, like Larry, doesn’t know what he’s talking about. See: http://community.nytimes.com/comments/krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/17/more-on-deficit-limits/?sort=oldest
Larry wrote: “I don’t agree completely with Jamie Galbraith’s and R Wray’s position on deficits (i.e., they never matter)”
It not the case that Galbraith, Wray and cohort say “deficits never matter.” That was Dick Cheney. They specify precisely HOW deficits matter. This is determined by sectoral balances and national accounting principles wrt macro.
The government fiscal balance, the domestic private balance and the external balance sum to zero as an national accounting identity. That is Macro 101. So if the domestic private balance is in surplus (S>I) and the country is running a CAD (foreigners saving in the nation’s currency), then the government fiscal balance must offset the demand leakage to saving or else private saving desire cannot be met.
As long as the US is deleveraging and rebuilding savings and also running an external deficit, the government fiscal balance must offset that leakage. Otherwise, either economy contracts, private debt increases, or the private sector draws down savings/sells assets. In a deflationary environment such the US now experiencing, this can result in mounting defaults and classic debt-deflation.
If there is insufficient fiscal offset of demand leakage to saving, as is the case now, then the economy will underperform and unemployment increase, Thus, we see that deficits have a very specific purpose and their appropriate size is determined by fluctuating saving desire.
Moreover, these economists say that the problem is never financial but real. As long as there are real resources available for purchase, the government can always fund their purchase. The balance between public and private is a political matter, but the government’s ability to fund its purchases is never an issue when it issues a non-convertible floating rate currency.
The only contraint on the government’s ability to fund itself as it wishes is the availability of real resources wrt money supply. If more money is created than the economy can expand to produce real resources to meet this demand, then inflation will result. As long as there is unemployment, the economy is capable of expanding and demand side inflation is remote. (This does not mean that supply side inflation cannot occur, e..g, due to an oil shock or natural disaster. But this is an entirely different matter.)
There is no problem with deficits in the short term, and the long term issue is a political one, that is, how the country decides to allocate its real resources wrt public purpose in the future — how much to defense, how much to health care, how much to the safety net, how much to infrastructure, etc. Decisions taken now will affect the quantity and quality of real resources in the future. In appropriate concern with deficits and debt, which are pseudo-problems, will simply set the entire country back, and everyone will be worse off than otherwise.
tjfxh,
Well said! MMT is the most progressive approach going. The rest are faux progressives — deficit apologists and the like. Conceding that the deficit must be brought “under control” while simultaneously arguing for further stimulus is a losing proposition.
i’m posting the following at the request of L. Randall Wray (*) (Professor of Economics, Research Director of CFEPS at the University of Missouri – Kansas City, and Senior Scholar at The Levy Economics Institute of Bard College and blogger at New Economic Perspectives), received via email:
………………………………………………..
From LR Wray
While I have great respect for Larry Mishel, his area of expertise is not macroeconomics, money, or federal budgeting. Indeed, EPI has always been weak in these areas. I do not fault EPI for taking tainted money from Pete Peterson. I do fault them for letting Peterson set the agenda for them.
………………………………………………..
* note: i’m not sure that bio is up to date, but for fdl readers i hope it is helpful. i also want to recommend randy wray’s book, Understanding Modern Money: The Key to Full Employment and Price Stability (which btw, yves smith, the author of this post, frequently advises her readers to read)
and THAT, imo, is the conversation you should be having… not participating in a fake summit with the peterson foundation.
in fact, i think that would be a great way forward… would you be willing (if the others are also) to participate in an online public discussion regarding your disagreement with galbraith, wray, kelton and others?
it would be a great service to citizens like me (non-economists, non-financial) who want to understand what the heck is going on — as a simple matter of civic duty, so we can better advocate for what matters to us.
let’s have a REAL discussion on that. what do you say?
yikes! my bad!
if a kind moderator is around to help out: would you please delete my comment directly above (now at 134) and this one.
and i will post randy wray’s corrected comment below. many thanks.
from L. Randall Wray, via email:
………………………………………………..
Mishel continues to misrepresent the position that Jamie and I take. Our argument is that the budgetary outcome of a sovereign currency issuer is not, by itself, important. That is to say that we do not worry if it happens to be the case that the US government ends up running a deficit–now, tomorrow, or forever. We do not say–have never said–that “deficits do not matter”. They matter! A federal government budget DEFICIT injects net income and net wealth into the nongovernment sector. That matters!
Finally, I really do not care whether some “progressives” disagree with me and Jamie–that is not evidence that we are wrong. If Mishel can show where we are wrong, I will listen. No progressive has ever made any case that we are wrong. I’ve been waiting for 25 years. I am patient. Let’s see Larry’s cards.
which is why it’s so important for political progressives to have the opportunity to hear what you-all have to say.
You say:
And you also said:
But as selise, Stephanie Kelton, and I all point out, Jamie and Randy don’t say that deficits never matter, and we have the citations to prove it. So, evidently, you don’t know what Jamie and Randy say, after all. Do you?
Please excuse my directness on this point. It is an important one. Since last summer, mainstream “progressive” economists such as Paul Krugman, Brad DeLong, and yourself, have claimed, without a shred of evidence in the form of citations that Jamie, Randy, and other MMT economists and writers following the MMT approach, say that deficits don’t matter.
Not one of us has said this, and in the interests of truth the mis-characterizations must stop. There comes a point where they are not simply errors of interpretation, but are just making up stuff. Please, no more making up stuff. Let’s leave that to the likes of Pete Peterson, David Walker, and Bill Clinton. If you want to say that MMT economists or advocates believe something, and you disagree with that, then please provide the cites to what you think they believe, and it also might be helpful to provide some reasons for why you disagree.
Yes, and we have the proof. That approach has been losing out since the Peterson austerity picked up steam with the President’s appointment of the Catfood Commission. See: http://www.correntewire.com/blog/right_message
Time to change strategies. Time to attack the deficit crisis idea for the fraud that it is.
Yo – Larry – I read your defense of that indefensible sell out to the right wing lying thieves – at least Mel Brooks could make make a sick joke outta holding the powerless hostage.
I’ve commented a lot in these 2 diaries –
YOU are just another excuse making sell out.
YOUR bullshit excuses feel like I just got another DLC-ish honey bucket misting in the 30 year long misting from excuse making sell outs – sell outs consistently from YOUR social cla$$ of excuse making sell outs!
How’s that seat in the veal pen of rotating villains? Got any good excuses for Patty Murray’s or John Kerry’s or Chris Dodd’s or … shitty votes?
Robert Murphy
Seattle.
Randy and selise, Larry has no cards. All he has is I disagree, and I’m entitled to my opinion because many other so-called progressive economists hold the same opinion. Well Larry, appeals to authority and faith are great things. Unfortunately, they’re not very effective when it comes to learning that one is in error.
EPI makes another mistake. It is actually called THE CATFOOD COMMISSION. Peter Peterson is the Catfood Commissar. And you failed to identify Bowles and Simpson as Catfoodies. If you want street cred you need to fight the Fascists.
So what did EPI say when Senile Simpson called us non-millionaires “lesser people”? Any EPI outrage?
In other words, Randall, since we print our own currency, federal budget “deficits matter” only because they’re a force for good (“forever”), as long as they result in federal budget spending that increases non-government-sector income and wealth?
If so, to this observer, at least, you’ve just admitted to believing exactly what Larry Mishel meant @ 106 when he stated that you (and Galbraith) believe that “deficits never matter” (that is, as I and probably most readers understand that turn of phrase, a negatively-unbalanced federal budget never has to be balanced, or deficits ended, for the nation’s government to attain ‘fiscal sustainability’).
If not, you’ve been too clever by half with your definition of “deficits do not/never matter” for me to understand your disagreement with Mishel’s characterization. Obviously I could delve into your work, as selise has, to try to understand your argument (and Larry’s) – but, surely, after 25 years at this, by now this core (and perhaps counterintuitive) position of yours is something that you can put into clear, precise language, in a blog comment for the general public, with brevity and ease.
P.S. I second selise’s helpful suggestions in this thread for perhaps a short series of focused debates at FDL among these, and other, budgetary/social security/medicare experts (self-styled “progressives” or not, but focusing on challenging the conventional D.C. wisdom) who may be willing to donate their time for such an effort, in order to permit a public testing and airing of their arguments. It could perhaps be in the format of one blog post by one person, followed by a rebuttal or counter-argument by another the next day, with intervening responses, etc., within a particular subject area selected by FDL. [With, I trust, the expectation of receiving a little more courtesy from the FDL audience, even in (understandably-frustrated) disagreement, than was received from some ill-considered FDL comments mocking Larry Mishel's hasty, yet evidently sincere, response to Yves Smith's sudden, unqualified criticism of EPI.]
Yes, you’ve completely misinterpreted. Randy WAS being “clever” since the suggestion that we think deficits don’t matter is so completely RIDICULOUS. Sometimes it gets tiring to be so severely misinterpreted when you’ve explained your position literally dozens of times. Please forgive him for not playing along this once. As there have been several links already posted above, you might want to actually read some of those.
powwow, see my comment 130 above. See also http://www.mmtwiki.org for brief summary of MMT main points and references. Thank you.
Best regards,
Tom Hickey
powwow! i’m so very glad you found this thread!!!
i think the following analogy may help — just you and probably to no one else :) — make sense of the difficulties involved.
take the senate filibuster rules, the myths and disinformation campaigns, and then multiply by about a million (no<a href="bullshit“> bullshit). and then think how hard it has been to explain a basic point like “cloture is an optional process.”
yikes!
absent the myths, misinformation and false premises, i’m sure what you suggest could easily be done. the problem is that the myths, misinformation and false premises are what get in the way of our understanding. and imo it’s far more than counterintuitive, it’s paradigm changing in multiple ways.
i don’t think the basic concepts are that hard (and in addition to all the online work, warren mosler and randy wray have written two most excellent books on the subject, both accessible to an interested layperson).
it’s the things i think i know — and am unaware i have totally wrong — that make it so hard to “get” and to explain. and i expect it’s much harder for most professional economists, as they have much more “knowledge” to overcome and/or re-evaluate.
but i want to make the case, as strongly as i can and to you especially, that in my opinion, this IS very much worth taking some time to investigate. if the work of these economists is correct, then the economic policy space actually available is far far larger than anything we’ve been told, or that i could imagine. and given the current state of the world, we all need to be willing to change the way we think about these things in some pretty fundamental ways (of course, only if after investigation what we find persuades us!).
awhile ago, when i briefly mentioned this issue to you, i warned you that it might blow your mind. if you are now willing to at least begin to take a look, you might try some of diaries i’ve x-posted at fdl (all i ask is an open mind):
USG deficits: The Economics, the Politics, the Banksters and You.
Paul Krugman gets it wrong…. Again.
Why Paul Krugman, and we, need to take MMT economists seriously
here’s a bit of a quote from galbraith (from the first diary listed):
i’m off now to x-post at myfdl a recent blog post of stephanie kelton’s…. hope to you “see” you again soon — either here or at the diary i’m going to post in a little bit… there’s lots of good stuff happening that i hope will give more people the tools they need to judge for themselves (wray is starting an MMT primer w/ Q&A this week — i’ll post the links in my diaries).
best,
selise
scott, in my experience, having “worked” with powwow on understanding two issues (legislative process re fisa, and senate filibuster rules), powwow is definitely one of the good ones. an extremely rigorous, independent and concrete thinker… and i am in debt to what powwow has taught me. but this one, i think, is going to go against every premise powwow has about federal govt budgets… so i don’t expect it to be easy.
however, as powwow has been on the other side (trying to break through the myths of what other people think they know), i also expect your frustration will be met with a bit of compassion. :)
thanks tom! thanks scott!
and one quick final message to powwow: i think it’s important to recognize the righteous anger from people like seabos84 above because these lies we been told have had such a profoundly bad effect on so many people’s lives. as i wrote above, even if someone’s intentions are good, the betrayal is still real. i hope we’ll all find a way forward (seabos84, larry michel and the rest of us)… one that does not assume bad faith AND one that also recognizes the very real betrayal and legitimate anger.
just my two cents.
As a possible mediator in this debate, and as someone who says the tax cut issue is irrelevant, perhaps you could help me understand something?
Larry seemed to be (to me) suggesting over and over again that all of the complaints that EPI lose progressive cred were without specifics. I was very sprecific. I said that IMO no progressive, NO PROGRESSIVE, should ever utter the words “tax cuts creates jobs” because that is a right wing meme AND because they’re wrong, i.e. there is no data to support it.
I was told that was ignorant.
http://my.firedoglake.com/economicpolicyinstitute/2011/06/03/epi-is-proud-of-its-long-history-as-a-progressive-organization/#comment-166
OK. I am very ignorant. Of lots of things. But I then went to the BLS and discovered some evidence that IMO directly refutes the tax cuts create jobs and linked to it.
http://my.firedoglake.com/economicpolicyinstitute/2011/06/03/epi-is-proud-of-its-long-history-as-a-progressive-organization/#comment-166
Could you please link me to evidence that tax cuts creates jobs?? Because if tax cuts creates jobs then instead of stimulus I’m going to have to agree with the right wing because IMO cutting taxes is very popular and if that will create jobs than there shouldn’t be any problem cutting them all the way to zero if need be and get the stimulus.
I understand economic theory says tax cuts should create jobs. I also understand economic theory says raising the minimum wage (or wages in general) should result in a loss of jobs (as the cost of something rises, labor, demand for it falls), yet in the real world all the data I’ve seen suggests raising the minimum wage increases employment.
And though I can’t recall the link and source at the moment (so feel free to discount it) I’m pretty sure I read a statistician’s attempt a couple of years ago to come up with data where he did an analysis of tax rates and unemployment over time and found a slightly NEGATIVE correlation (albeit very, very slight and possibly not statistically significant). Meaning what correlation there was was OPPOSITE the theory. The slight correlation was lower tax rates correlated with HIGHER unemployment. Again, slightly. And obviously this is only correlation (not causation).
But IMO the low taxes argument is the argument of the right wing. It’s their answer for everything. They justify it by saying it’s good for the economy. So IMO no progressive would go around repeating right wing memes, unless it’s true.
So, do you have economic evidence that tax cuts create jobs that you could link me too?
Thanks.
Sorry for the length.
Ugh the second link is merely a copy of the first link instead of a link to a response a few responses below that one (#167).
Anyway, according to the BLS employment hours and earnings for the first five months of 2011 (with the tax cuts that were supposed to create jobs in effect) rose LESS than the hours and earnings for the first five months of 2010.
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth
That’s not evidence that these tax cuts did anything at all.
OFG, we’re all ignorant and i am certainly no expert (for experts see kelton, fullwiler, wray, galbraith, mosler, mitchell, et al.), but i’ll try to begin to respond to your excellent questions (and i especially appreciate your comment on correlation and causation).
so here goes. i’d say some kinds of tax cuts can increase jobs under certain circumstances and all other things being equal.
i hope you don’t hate me for all the qualifications…
but i think saying tax cuts creates jobs is like saying stepping on the gas makes a car go forward faster. the answer is that it depends:
* is there gas in the tank?
* is the car on blocks?
* is the car in drive and not neutral or reverse?
the economy is a much more complex system than car. so it’s not surprising, i think that the “it depends” is also a lot more complicated.
i’d say (subject, of course, to correction by the experts) that tax cuts can increase jobs if the result in an increase in aggregate demand. (and we need taxes for other reasons, so even this doesn’t hold in all cases).
….
btw, i think the economic theory says raising the minimum wage can increase employment… but, before going there… can we take this conversation to the diary i just posted? it’s more on topic than this thread and it will be easier for me to reply in just one place… thanks!
Stephanie Kelton: What Happens When the Government Tightens its Belt?
Which is exactly like answering does stepping on the gas make a car go forward faster with “IN THEORY, all other things being equal, yes.”
Like I said, I’ve read all the economic theory on why it’s theoretically true. Yet no one can provide EVIDENCE.
Yet I can point to data that shows that GDP went up and unemployment went down every year of the direct spending New Deal, with the exception of the recession of 1938 after FDR responded to deficit hawks with austerity measures.
If the theory were that cut and dried, then someone should be able to point to it the way I can the positive outcomes of New Deal spending.
Otherwise, it’s just agreeing with a theory.
Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will retain my opinion that the right wing’s claims that tax cuts create jobs is bullshit (federal taxes are right now at one of the lowest points in history, and lower than at any time during the past at least 50 years, so where are the jobs being created?) and my opinion that anyone that repeats that meme is not doing the progressive cause any good.
YMMV and thank you for responding.
OFG, I agree with selise’s reply to you, whether tax cuts produce jobs depends on the specific context of the economic situation. Here’s an article by Jamie Galbraith on the relationships between stimulus, recovery, and jobs: http://motherjones.com/politics/2008/12/stimulus-suckers As well as doing a good job laying out some of the issues, it also has a graphic providing Mark Zandi’s estimates from Moody’s of the fiscal multipliers associated with different fiscal initiatives. While GDP multiplier estimates don’t have a one-one correlation with increasing jobs, higher multipliers generally are associated with job gains.
You can see from the graphic that the highest multiplier policies involve Government spending. The stimulative effects of tax cuts are widely variant. The Bush tax cuts most of the tax cut measures have a multiplier effect of only 30 or 40 cents on the dollar. But a payroll tax holiday yields $1.30 of GDP for every dollar deficit spent by the Government. I suppose it’s worth adding that Mark Zandi is a Republican economist who was one of John McCain’s economic advisers and Galbraith, of course, is an unambiguously progressive economist who uses the MMT approach.
absolutely agree that you are right to demand data. but first we have to know what other parameters to check. that’s all i was saying… not trying to get you to stop asking your question (please don’t!).
… any chance i could convince you to take your question to my current diary? i hope there will be other questions there too… and if i don’t have the answers, i’ll try to get them for you (and anyone else) or give you sources who can and will help you get answers.
lets, ofg has moved over to myfdl, if you’d like to continue your discussion with him there….
selise, you mean over to your cross-post of Stephanie Kelton’s Post here? http://my.firedoglake.com/selise/2011/06/06/stephanie-kelton-what-happens-when-the-government-tightens-its-belt/
I looked over there but didn’t see OFG’s question.
yes. after his comment there, i asked him to repeat his question… i expect he will be back a little later….
selise and Scott and Tom (whose explanation @ 130 about “HOW” – instead of whether – deficits matter I did unsuccessfully try to interpret) -
First, an admission: I have a strong disinclination to believe arguments that make, or seem to make, the case that the federal budget does not need to be in balance, on the whole, over the long term. [I see tremendous "moral hazard" risk, and negative incentives galore for federal officeholders, when such a case is even hinted at...]
Thus, before spending a lot of time reading up on “MMT,” which seems to head in a direction contrary to my own bias about the intrinsic value of manageable federal budget deficits, I’m, in essence, waiting to be ‘sold’ – that is, looking for a convincing hook by the proponents that would make heading deeper into their subject matter seem like a wise investment of my time (since this isn’t a subject I’m focused on, in general).
But I had, in fact, read the latter two MyFDL diaries that selise links @ 145, as well as some of the other recommended reads on this subject that selise has linked at FDL (figuring that if she saw something in this, there must be something there) – until I ran into some maddeningly-indecipherable rhetoric in one of those linked arguments, on a core point, that stopped my inquiry cold, in disgust. That experience actually partly prompted my comment @ 142, because, again, a core argument was unclearly – even, inadvertently, misleadingly – conveyed by an expert (Randall Wray), for no apparent reason other than pique at Larry Mishel. (And I and other confused readers, after that introduction to the subject by one of its experts, are subsequently told to go find out for ourselves what Wray actually meant, rather than expecting him to state his case with straightforward clarity.) Maybe it takes a book to explain the core MMT arguments, but at least a high-level summary ought to be possible, that would intrigue and encourage readers to learn more. [And I know that Jamie Galbraith, for one, is more than capable of writing just such a big-picture summary with incisive precision, having seen his superb written testimony to the Catfood Commission.]
Assuming that the objective is not merely to score academic (or blogging, or Party-superiority) points against one another, then when new audiences are at hand, and tiring as I’m sure it is to repeat long-held positions, it seems that the minimum the general public should expect to receive from the proponents of this monetary theory is a succinct, clear statement about the purpose, reason, and/or genesis of “MMT” – something more than that it’s the true “progressive” position (whatever that undefined label may be taken to mean).
In short, when the merits are carefully discussed, I’ll continue to keep an eye on them (including reading Stephanie’s post in selise’s new diary with an open mind), but, for everyone’s sake, perhaps MMT experts should work a little harder at ‘translating’ their insider/economic-speak into language that a general audience can more easily grasp – to help transform their theories into practical, wise solutions of topical import – difficult though that may be:
[Too true, selise.]
Thank you for the update, greenharper.
hi powwow! thank you so much for returning to this thread! i just saw an email from randy wray — that he sent to me YESTERDAY and asked me to post for him (he’s having connection trouble) in reply to you. i will do so immediately, but will have to return to this post later tonight as i’m attempting to juggle about 6 different things right now!
from L. Randall Wray to powwow, sent via email last night:
……………………….
No, my claim was not an attempt to be “clever”. No, my view is not that deficits are only a force for “good”. Deficits can be bad. They can be good. They usually result from the “automatic stabilizer” function rather than from a discretionary change of policy (obviously WWII was a case of discretionary policy change that resulted in huge deficits). So I want to be clear that government can try to balance its budget until “it is blue in the face” and still end up with deficits–which is why I phrased my comment the way I did.
All I said is that we never argued that “deficits don’t matter”–too much government spending (that results in deficits) can be inflationary; can be used to fight unpopular foreign wars; can take too many resources away from the nongovernment sector; and so on. All of those things “matter”. What we deny is that a sovereign government using its own floating currency can be forced into default; to be more specific, we deny that it will reach a point that it cannot pay its bills, including servicing its debt. Yes, it might CHOOSE to default–indeed, Congress might yet CHOOSE something like that later this summer (I don’t predict this, but it has a nonzero probability).
Thank you for the clarifying response, Randall. It’s encouraging to know that you don’t think that federal government budget deficits are “forever,” or by definition, “good.”
It’s hard to believe that there’s significant controversy over this point, except from those whose jobs or income (or political advantage) depend on pretending otherwise. I certainly don’t quibble with that statement with regard to the United States, under current circumstances, however unwise and counterproductive I may think an excessive, unnecessary government debt load may be.
This may partly explain why I didn’t understand your comment @ 135 – because I don’t intuitively grasp that bolded concept (although it seems logical, given your explanation of the non-discretionary cause of most deficits). I hope that you’ll soon be able to write more about that concept, and others, in a full diary for FDL, to expand on this discussion for the enlightenment of others who, like me, have been relatively unexposed to these ideas. Thanks again.
I agree that “tax cuts create jobs” is a right-wing mantra and progressives should not reinforce the right’s message by repeating it. It is also true that when deficits are called for, both increasing spending and cutting taxes will produce the amount called for to offset demand leakage. (see comment 130 above).
Which to use, or how much of each in combination is an issue to be determined by the specifics of prevailing circumstances. For example, the fastest way to get get stimulus to workers is through a payroll tax holiday. Resulting increased consumption sends a signal to business to increase production and and hiring, quickly countering the down trend. This is the approach that the stimulus package should have taken from the outset, since it is the biggest and quickest bang for the buck under the extreme circumstances.
As the crisis unfolded, expanding the safety net beyond automatic stabilization was also called for, as well as federal aid to states. The latter could have been accomplished through per capita block grants. This was Warren Mosler’s proposal then, but his advice was not heeded. As a result, the stimulus was too small, too slow, and not effectively targeted.
I tried to alter my earlier comment to alter the tone but was too late. My apologies for that.
In regard to Randy’s point–government can try to balance its budget until “it is blue in the face” and still end up with deficits–let me try to clarify for you:
To say that the government’s budget position is to a large degree non-discretionary is to point out that both government spending and revenues are strongly affected by the state of the economy, no matter what policymakers try to do.
Government spending on unemployment benefits, for instance, will rise when the economy slows. Government tax revenues, will slow when the economy slows–and it’s well known that the change to tax revenues is much, much faster than the change to the economy, in the same direction (i.e., as the economy slows, tax revenues slow at a much higher rate).
So, there is an automatic tendency for the budget to go into deficit when the economy slows. Many estimates put 1/2 to 2/3 weight of the current deficit on the state of the economy.
And if policymakers try and reduce deficits in times like these, they just exacerbate this. Cut unemployment benefits? Then you cut spending by households receiving these benefits, and thus reduce income and taxes paid by the potential recipients of that spending. And you increase bankruptcies by the unemployed, which further reduces income and spending for others directly and indirectly affected. Further, virtually every social problem has a statistically significant relationship to unemployment–so, budget cuts that raise unemployment also raise pressure to spend more on jails, crime prevention, Medicaid, etc.
Much the same goes for cutting other spending and raising taxes. The only thing that’s different for different cuts or tax increases is the distribution among the population of the austerity measures and the magnitude of the effect on the budget.
We’re already seeing this at work in, say, the UK, as austerity measures implemented late last year are now resulting in rising deficits there. Richard Koo similarly repeats the story of Japan’s attempt to reduce deficits in the late 1990s that resulted in rising deficits.
Hope that helps.
that’s what i suspected from your previous writing (see my comment to scott @146):
powwow, imo this makes you just about the perfect person to find flaws in the arguments. you have a bias against (which will help you identify holes in the logic), but you recognize the bias and i’m confident that you care more about “letting the chips fall where they may” than confirming your biases (which we all have anyway, whether we’re willing to recognize them or not). and if MMT is wrong, i’d sure like to know it. alternatively, if you (and your biases) can be persuaded, then i’d be even more confident that i’m on the right track.
thank you so much for reading (and especially for your confidence). i am so v sorry to have linked to something you found much worse than unhelpful.
both randy wray and warren mosler have written books (i loved them both), but i don’t know which would appeal to you most. probably randy’s but it’s longer and more involved (and therefore more of a time and intellectual commitment). warren’s is more of a myth-busting intro; a quick read and, what were for me, some very interesting stories involving familiar names — rumsfeld, andy card, larry summers, al gore and more. also warren has posted the pdf of his book online.
since you like galbraith’s writing, i’ll go so far as to recommend to you the forward to warren’s book — galbraith wrote it. in that you might find something like the high-level summary (even if only partial) you describe.
i think that’s very fair (although when approaching progressives, i think it makes sense to focus on the progressive policy space MMT opens up). you may not know this… warren has attended and made presentations at tea-party events and has even sought their support. i’ve watch the youtubes and the substance of his message doesn’t change (just the style). see for example: youtube, youtube, statement. so i don’t think it’s all about point scoring (or if is, i’ve totally missed it).
thank you, powwow! i can’t ask for more than that.
your critique regarding what explanations work, and especially, what doesn’t work is extremely valuable feedback.
i’d just add one bit to the transformation process you outline (one i’m pretty sure you will agree with):
theories & descriptions (mmt is mostly descriptive) –> citizen awareness –> engaged citizen policy debates –> practical, wise solutions.
even with a better (i hope!) understanding of the policy space, we’re all not going have the same priority, values and politics…. and i’d hate to see citizens (even those who disagree with me!) not have an effective means of participating in the public debate, even if that debate is only the one around dinner table.
scott, thanks so much for returning to this thread and responding to powwow’s comment!
just fyi…. i think you might be interested in seeing powwow’s very helpful and detailed suggestions on stephanie’s excellent belt tightening piece (which i x-posted as a diary here with her kind permission). if so, pls see the beginning of this comment:
http://my.firedoglake.com/selise/2011/06/06/stephanie-kelton-what-happens-when-the-government-tightens-its-belt/#comment-183885