Morning, BT.

Heh. Re Rand Paul & slavery. It strikes me that he’s trying to coopt the use of the term before regular workers can figure out that they’re well on their way to slavery.

WSJ: For a potential President whose core argument is that he knows how to revive free market economic growth, this amounts to a fatal flaw. …the debate over ObamaCare and the larger entitlement state may be the central question of the 2012 election. … If he does not change his message, he might as well try to knock off Joe Biden and get on the Obama ticket.

Think he’ll change his message?

Good catch: “Kentucky Senator Rand Paul: ‘Right to health care’ is slavery” (May 11, 2011)

Who is “he”?

Good morning, pups.

See BT’s WSJ link.

Sorry, should have specified: Willard.

I went back and read the links and figured it out, but thanks. I was mystified.

Once government takes on the direct or implicit liability of paying for health care for everyone, the only way to afford it is through raw political control of all medical decisions.

(From WSJ article, emphasis mine)

Is this how Medicare works? Is it how VA care works? Really? The WSJ’s biases are showing.

This framing is in a similar vein to whistle-blowers as bounty hunters (hat tip Kevin Gosztola, May 11, 2011).

I like this post from Steve Benen

Gingrich launches the ultimate vanity project

Rupert Murdoch’s WSJ has been caught doing far more: “Blatant WSJ Revisionism Redlined” (ZeroHedge.Com, May 10, 2011)

I think their broader argument is that all govt control of everything is the moral equivalent of slavery, regardless of how it works out in practice. Slippery slope & all that.

And, of course, that is a massive display of projection, since when nutcases get control of govt, they do try to enslave the population.

Not to mention their goal of getting rid of govt altogether. Or at least the part that benefits real peeps, not the military or corp welfare.

The pics in this gallery make Huck look like a pro….What did happen to the Grand Ol’ Party?
G’Morning All…;)

Yes, I read that yesterday. Blatant. Apparently they forget that once it’s published, it lives forever on the Internet.

Gingrich, Palin, Bachmann, Trump, Cain, Romney, Paul, Pawlenty, Santorum, etal…

So many cranks and wingnuts, so little time. On the other hand, comedians have never had it so good. Talk about a material-rich environment…

Morning BT & Firepups.

Every public servant in the country is a slave to Rand Paul if that person is employed doing something he doesn’t like. He just wants to free them into unemployment. I’ve worked with a lot of doctors. Some of them are doing it for the money and some are doing it because they want to help. The contrast couldn’t be more obvious.

At the end of the GOP primary, they’ll all shout “the Aristocrats!“

I’ll mark my calendar. Don’t want to miss that…

Doesn’t look much like Ike, HST, LBJ, JKF….what have we become?

So, 9 Repulican candidates for president walk into a bar….

Mornin’, BT, pups

I know for a fact that VA doctors aren’t in it for the money. Nor do they get kickbacks for sending patients to Radiology for CT Scans or MRIs. Nor do they make a dime for specimens sent to the lab. They definitely earn every penny they make.

And the places empties out….

And everyone laughs….(gags, whatever)

Holds on to their wallet

Etc Etc Etc

I think their broader argument is that all govt control of everything is the moral equivalent of slavery, regardless of how it works out in practice. Slippery slope & all that.

No, that’s not it. You may want to check out Atlas Shrugged. I’ve read it, and I don’t agree with all of Rand’s philosophy, but at least I think I understand Paul’s argument. The argument is that if you create a positive right (right to health care, right to food, etc.) which requires that someone be provided with some good or service, then the provider of that good or service is forced to provide it – either directly, or indirectly via coercion from government. And when one is forced to work for another against his/her will, that is a type of slavery. It is not really about “government control of everything”. It is about the nature of rights, and positive vs. negative rights.

Heh, heh.
or
Bartender asks them what they’re having.
27 kool aids, and heavy on the kool. Hold the aid.

Or, no kool, no aid….;) Thanks

Thanks for clarifying that. It seems that payment for services rendered has no role in Ayn Rand. So everyone who doesn’t like his/her job, but who is forced to do it to pay bills is a slave. That puts everything into perspective.

I know for a fact that VA doctors aren’t in it for the money.

Generally speaking, the medical school process tends to weed out those who are only in it for the money. Medical school is a pretty grueling experience and those that don’t really enjoy it won’t survive it. No doubt there are some doctors who only desire the large paychecks but they are probably in the minority.

Stop it, you’re scaring me.. ;-)

Then as long as an “individual” has the right to step over the bodies of the dead and dying whether they be young or old, black,brown or white, working or middle class, it’s all good. Dickens could easily have a whole new career.

Boo!
It seems I can’t be serious today. Whoa, Nellie.

what have we become?

I ask myself the same question on a regular basis. Just…surreal.

heh heh..

Scrollin. scrollin, scrollin
though they keep on trollin
keep those browsers rollin
scroll by

Let ‘em go
scroll byyyyyyyyyyy

Gov (P)rick Scott has openly stated that he’s going to put the Chicago School economic theories into practice. Shock Doctrine comes for FL for real. It didn’t work in Chile, Poland, Argentina, Poland or Russia but by God he’s gonna make it work in FL. We’ll see, motherfucker.

No one is forced to have any particular job. Actually, no one is forced to have any job at all. The only requirement is to have food to eat. If you want to do that by living like a hermit in the mountains and growing your own, I personally have no problem with that.

The slavery argument is of course a moral one, not an economic one. If you coerce me, physically, to mow your lawn, then I am a slave, even if you do end up paying me afterwards. The payment does not mitigate the moral crime of slavery.

It is odd…to see one dwarf after another. I swear there used to be some
heroes…..shouldn’t have left out FDR & should have put in a correct JFK.

Generally speaking, the medical school process tends to weed out those who are only in it for the money.

I vote this to be the dumbest statement on the thread so far.

Big *G*.

If it makes him and his patrons richer then it will be mission accomplished, no matter the actual human cost. Regressives are the ultimate virus. They turn their patches of society into little money making factories that ultimately doom the host and then move on.

All down to you. It was your idea.

Clearly, someone has never watched Scrubs. (Dumb High Five)

I’ll second that vote. Absolutely ridiculous. One of the best Urologists I know, who is nationally known, is in it for the money, solely. Very Randian himself and with little man syndrome to boot. Altogether unpleasant fellow though very highly able.

Thankin’ ya for the citation.

You may want to check out Atlas Shrugged

Let me check my calendar. Um…after I wash my oatmeal bowl and feed the kitties, I’m fresh outta time. Why don’t you read it and give us a book report? We’ll get Michele Bachmann to play Ayn Rand. It’s gonna be great…

Copy that.

Esp since the opposite would seem to be more realistic. The cost of medical school works in the direction of increasing the # of docs in it for the money. That is an economic argument (nudge nudge), not a moral one.

Funny it is that I can’t find anybody willing to admit to voting for Scott.

It took years to get rid of the pols in the countries that the Chicago School Boys ruined. Methinks 2012 will be the end of ‘em in FL. The way Scott’s going the unemployment rate in the Tampa area should be well over 12% by next summer.

There is a joke among physicians: What’s the difference between God and a surgeon? God knows s/he’s not a surgeon. That is so spot on but the ones who display it are more likely to be in it for the money.

Snappy tune. A few covered wagons and we’re there…

I’ve never heard anyone describe medical school with the phrase “really enjoy it.”

I’m innocent! I live in California.

Hysterical. Oh, you meant funny – peculiar. Yep.

You mean the Ayn Rand who rode her dead husband’s Social Security after she was diagnosed with lung cancer for failing to take personal responsibility and quit chain smoking? That one?

It would appear that Scott went to the “Eric Cantor School of Creep Vibes.” Dude’s a major-league sleazebag…

And I thought Harry Potter killed him….

Yeah, that one…

She was forced to take SS — by the gubmint.

Why eCAHN and I were just talking about Ayn earlier this morning.

Is it close enough to the end of the thread for me to go personal?
I added two days a week at MEND, working as an admin assistant to the Director of Volunteer development. Mostly computer work: research, creating pamplets/flyers, special event planning. Still volunteer, but I’m replacing the gal who left because she got a paying gig.
Big time, Bill. Big time.

Got that right. Folks have no prob calling him Skeletor, even on the talk shows.

Ah, of course! The evil government enslaved Ayn Rand. Bet it had to do with the Kennedys and Russia. That’s where she came from after all.

FWIW….one of the best docs Ive had left his private clinic practice to go to the VA….his reason was a combination of a practice that was growing out of control + the time/schedule the VA could offer with the benefit of more time for family etc. He was definitely my loss/VA gain. Im sure he is not the only one.

Congratulations.

I tweeted that Rand Paul does not believe health care is a human right… and I have nearly 800 followers and I am a nobody.

Dualistic thinking is so useful for making up political wedge issues.

If all doctors had to work for the VA, medical school applications would drop like a stone. Or, at least the income distribution of applicants would shift downward dramatically.

Keep at it….Im betting something may open up there for you with some benefits….$$. Good luck. And whatever, you have a good current reference.

Esp since the opposite would seem to be more realistic. The cost of medical school works in the direction of increasing the # of docs in it for the money.

Going to medical school with student loans (as is the typical case) means that one must take on a huge financial risk with no guarantee of a high-paying career at the end. A typical cost for medical school is in the neighborhood of $150,000. Plus, medical school is a pretty grueling task. If I’m solely interested in chasing dollars, then there are a lot better risk/reward scenarios – like maybe getting a much cheaper MBA and working at a financial firm.

Thanks. The goal is to find a paycheck. Plus, when I’m doing research, I can do that from home, saving on the gas. Plus, they are really nice people and upstairs will be air conditioned this summer.
I actually traded one of the warehouse days. So two upstairs, two days on the warehouse floor. I’m starting to have bread nightmares. Ha.

And I guess she just hated that/s

Speaking of “moral” arguments.

Duh.

On edit: “moral” arguments are only allowed if you are an Ayn Rand fan. All other “moral” arguments are disallowed. /s

Wrong, KarenM. You are a Somebody.

Are you a doc? Spouse? Dated a med student? Unless you have some personal experience, I do not understand the point/worth of all your generalizations….sorta like “bad” lawyer stuff.

Working hard, crossing fingers, and even smiling when I don’t necessarily feel like it. Thanks.

econobuzz, do you know about medical school? About the residencies and the 100+ hour workweeks? If all I’m interested in is chasing dollars, that is not the way to do it. Do people here think that because doctors tend to have high salaries, that they chose that profession because of those salaries?

Or the prestige factor; or “family” business; or dermatology where pts “never die”….etc.etc.etc. So WHAT?

Whatever it is, s/he’s full of shit because his/her theory doesn’t account for all of the doctors I’ve worked for and with who were in it solely for the money. At or just an edge above 50% of them. Unless I’m being called a liar of course.

Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.

US KIA Afghanistan: 1,571

US KIA Irak: 4,452

Iraki, Afghan and Pakistani casualties: estimates vary to over 1.5M

US MBS 2011: 16,244 and counting

Waking

Be good to yourselves, and all other living things

Namaste

No war but class war

Never. Give. Up.

eCAHNonics, I have never claimed that moral arguments only ‘count’ for Objectivists. I think one of Rand’s big contributions to philosophy was a deeper understanding of the morality of charity. If government is going to give food to the needy – a moral act – it must first take food from the producers – another moral act. It is a two-dimensional moral landscape”. Now Objectivists tend to overempahsize that second part, but liberals in my experience tend to minimize or completely ignore the second part.

You take care too.

Yeppp. I thought I wasn’t going to play, then it just got so “old”….How ya’ doing?

RevBev, no I’m not a doctor. I’m obviously not going to give out a lot of personal details about myself. I don’t have any more firsthand experience with doctors than anyone else, but I do happen to know, perhaps slightly more than most, about medical school.

I hear ya. It’s hard to resist sometimes but this person is here to hijack the conversation, not join it.

I must need more coffee, because I’m sitting here yawning.

Boring troll is boring.

Jeff Kaye’s upstairs.

it must first take food from the producers

The government doesn’t “take” food from anybody, the government/taxpayers pay for it. Nothing moral about it, strictly a business transaction. The government then giving that food to the needy is a moral act.

Boring High Five.

See, Margaret, this is what I don’t understand. I am sincerely not here to hijack any conversation. I’m discussing Objectivism because Rand Paul’s statement about health care and slavery, quoted in the main article. Is this not germane to the discussion? Perhaps I’m missing the point of the “Early Morning Swim” links. Was the real point of the Rand Paul link to provide an opening to mock and ridicule Rand Paul? If that is the case then yes I suppose I’ve “hijacked” the conversation because I don’t believe his comments deserve mockery, but open discussion instead.

Thanks…it always helps me to know what the point is….;)

Party crashing is just so sad.

Couldn’t let his cavalier use of “take” go unanswered.

Just another fuckin’ Randroid.

Man, he’s got all the troll arguments down pat.

The government doesn’t “take” food from anybody, the government/taxpayers pay for it.

Fine – then government must first take tax revenue from taxpayers, and use that tax money to purchase food from producers. At some point along the way, government takes something of value from producers. That is the moral act.

Not to mention the food producer welfare queens who TAKE taxpayer dollars for producing nothing, polluting the environment, etc.

On edit: I mean to restrict my food producer comment to industrial farming.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Read it and weep. It takes taxation to afford to do that stuff. If you don’t like being taxed then you’re free to move. The Constitution has been adopted, ratified and amended. It’s not down to you to decide what’s “moral” or fair. Pay your share or move. Either way, stfu about things that have been decided hundreds of years ago.

What part of “government of the people by the people for the people” do you have an issue with?

Like the former Hillsborough County Elections Supervisor who scammed the bank for a loan to buy land and then allowed a friend to house 2 head of cattle on his land and got the agricultural use break on his property taxes. Now disgraced he disappeared quietly into the sunset.

Rampant among the superwealthy mountaintop mansion owners out west. I forget the story, but I think it’s that scientology guy who has a couple of cattle on thousands of acres & pays like $45 property taxes/year.

Margaret, I agree that it takes taxation to do that stuff. It’s not really about what the taxes are used for. It is about the act of taxation itself. It is a taking of money from taxpayers no matter how you slice it. You may call it a justifiable taking, and in many instances I would agree with you. But it is still a taking. That is the point.

Ummm yeah, I think I remember that too. Scientology and Randian economic theory are just about as complimentary, (and stupid) as it’s possible to be.

Yes, but those are penny ante. The real “takings” are by industrial ag and all the other corp welfare queens.

But it is still a taking.

So, you get nothing of value for living in this society and in this country? The military doesn’t defend you? The economic environment doesn’t allow you to be prosperous? The police don’t keep invaders from coming into your home? The fire department doesn’t keep a wildfire from burning down your home or business? The DoE doesn’t educate your children or fellow citizens?
This is what I’m talking about. If you wanted a conversation, you wouldn’t saqy such stupid, unsupportable bullshit. Nobody is “taking” anything from you and not giving you something of value in return. And, as I said, nobody is holding a gun to your head to keep you here. I hear Somalia has nice weather and there is no Constitution there that promises to provide for the common welfare and defense.

So your argument essentially bowls down to pissin’ and moanin’ about taxes.

Poor bayyyybeee.

I’m done. Sheesh.

And the govt doesn’t support medical schools & medical research.

Margaret, I said that in many instances I would agree that the taking of tax money would be justified. I’d place national defense and a police department at the top of the list. It’s not about what the tax money is spent on. It is about the act of taxation itself. If I take money from you and give you an ice cream cone, I’ve still taken money from you even if you got an ice cream cone in return.

Nope. It just imposes it’s onerous will on poor GeneralPudding without any benefit to him/her whatsoever.

Then stop. Fucking. Whining. It’s old. You can move. I’m not the one who wants to change the country to suit my own selfish purposes. You don;t want to converse. You want to whine about how you have to pay taxes and then you come along to incoherently claim that’s not what you’re griping about at all.

I’m done with you GP.

I didn’t say there was no value to taxation. You are making up arguments that I didn’t make.

If I take $1 from you and give you a sports car – you got a great deal out of it, but I have still taken $1 from you.

That is qualitatively different than if you voluntarily hand over $1 and receive a sports car in return, with no middleman in between to do the taking and giving.

That is the whole point. I didn’t say that taxes are bad. I’m not even necessarily complaining about the tax rates themselves. I’m talking about the physical act of collecting tax money from taxpayers, whatever the rate may be and whatever that money may be spent on.

So taxes should be voluntary? They are! Nobody is forcing you to live in the United States. Do you think people should be allowed to live here and receive the benefits of that but only pay taxes if they feel like it? Oh, that’ll work out well.

Now Margaret…..Let’s all move to the little house on the Praaaaarie…or Ms. Calvo can join the conversation about picking cotton. O the good ol’ days….Cheers.

Off to the Somalian paradise, methinks.

It’s the same old conservative argument: You should pay taxes, I shouldn’t have to unless I feel like it.

Speaking of takings.

So taxes should be voluntary?

No, I don’t believe they should be. I believe all citizens should pay some taxes. And collecting the taxes themselves is a taking of money, which, when viewed in isolation, is a morally problematic thing. After all, if I just walked up to you and took $1 out of your pocketbook, you would be upset, right? But, as in the previous example, if I then later handed you the keys to a sports car, you might not be so upset after all. With a great deal of taxation, I think the value that we receive outweighs the moral harm in taking money from people. But that moral harm is still there and it shouldn’t be dismissed. There are two moral dimensions to government charity – the taxation part and the donation part. That is all I’m trying to get across.

It’s also corps (“producers”) against “takers” (workers).

It’s also corps (“producers”) against “takers” (workers).

That certainly isn’t how I view things.

There are two moral dimensions to government charity – the taxation part and the donation part. That is all I’m trying to get across.

That makes no sense at all, supporting my conclusion that you are here to hijack, not converse. You’re bitching about it and then claiming that you’re not. Please feel free to carry on by yourself though.

And you have beat the point to death, and it is not an interesting or original point….

in the last year,at least

Boring whining b.s. yet again.

Yes, this is a thread hijacking.

I went to undergrad college that is known for pre-med & happen to know lots of doctors. Although *many* are friends of mine still, *most* went into med. mainly to make money. I speak from direct, personal experience of knowing quite a few M.D.s

Specious arguments based on fictional fairy tale romantic notions do not reality make.

If US citizens dislike being taxed, then please move elsewhere. It’s a reasonably big planet with lots of countries to chose from. Have at it!

Again speaking from direct personal experience, I’ve lived in several other countries; it’s quite possible get citizenship somewhere else. Please go! Bon voyage!

Sick of ceaseless stupid whiiiiiiiiiing crybabies. Get. a. life.

P.S. Ayn Rand is a lousy writer & her “philosophy” is braindead & she had no morals, just selfish weird notions. Any woman who lusts after being raped as the height of sexytime has something wrong going on.

Brilliant! I just wish you hadn’t given in to the temptation of responding to PrivateCustard or whatever he’s calling himself…

wow, a whole thread of this BS?
pudding pawned you folks. and you got pawned hard. and you did it willingly. when people line up for the meat grinder WILLINGLY, all you can do is give a quick warning and walk away. can’t save people from themselves.
it’s like being at HP.