Good morning! Newt? Triple ugh. I just lost my appetite for breakfast.
Speaking of R candidates, Trump’s birther ploy seems to have backfired.
Link to NYT letter on salary is in previous thread.
democracynow segment on O’s immigration reform initiative. It makes me gag to see him again make false promises to D voters, only to pull the football away after he gets reelected.
What’s all this I hear about banning Sharia law? We don’t have that, do we? Why ban something that doesn’t exist. I’m completely confused. Help me out, someone, please.
Yep. A billion is roughly the number I remember.
I think AIPAC might be behind the fearmongering over sharia law. The first I ran into it was a guest at Tgiving dinner who I hadn’t met before. He is Jewish and I didn’t know him, and didn’t pursue it as it came up as he was leaving. I just told him he was crazy and he should send me a link, which he never did (thankfully).
I should have pointed out that there are towns in the U.S. that are under some form of orthodox Jewish law and nobody’s bent out of shape over it. (Well, I can’t say everyone in the neighborhood is happy.)
Mornin’, BT, pups
Newt! Run, motherfucker, run. I can’t wait to see you make an utter fool of yourself, not that you haven’t been doin’ that for years.
Nice to see the Tea Party electeds showing us how wingnutty they are. Man, teh stoopid…it burns.
Nomolos, left you a link at the very end of the last thread.
Why ban something that doesn’t exist.
Because you can say afterwards, “It worked, didn’t it?”
I followed your link, and I understand that the majority of the folks follow the laws of the Torah, but that’s personal isn’t it? I mean, the local laws are not governed by Torah, are they? Are the folks trying to ban Shira law afraid that a community of Muslims will change the local government? That’s my question, I guess.
Oh, that’s funny!
I’m not that familiar with Kiryas Joel, but I think the entire town is under Jewish law. Prolly no one who isn’t hassidic lives there.
You mean, if we banned aliens (from outer space) to run for office, they can say It worked, didn’t it?
Next we should ban man/dog marriage.
It just seems like so much wheel spinning to me. There are real problems that need to be addressed.
Apparently these nutjobs who want to ban “Sharia law” don’t even know what Sharia IS.
Yeah, and do you see any of our elected officials addressing any of them? They’re much too busy with culture warz.
Morning BT & Firepups:
For those with a strong stomach…
BTW, not sure if it’s Kiryas Joel or someplace else nearby, and very fuzzy on the details (heard the story from my contractor who follows these things more closely), but there’s a school that Jews attend in one of these Catskill enclaves that is in a very substandard blg that whichever govt is responsible won’t issue a CO for. Big fight. Sounded like the relevant Jewish community was either being scofflaws or spending more on fighting it legally which might be costing more than fixing the bldg up.
This is getting far off the Q you asked, however.
They know it when they see it.
I have stuff to do so I’m off for now.
About the Tennessee Sharia bill: the article cited above is incomplete. Here is a link to the actual bill, as best as I can find it.
The bill does not criminalize people just for being Muslims. The bill does not define a “sharia organization” as just two people praying together. According to the bill, there must be some violent or criminal intent before an organization may be classified as a “sharia organization”. Read it for yourself.
The intent here appears to be to prevent individuals from advocating insurrection or terrorism but yet hiding behind the cloak of free exercise of religion. After all, if it was “Dominionist organization” instead of “Sharia organization”, who here would have strong objection to it?
Now of course there are still strong and valid objections to the bill, but it’s not necessary to make up false ones. It does not criminalize the act of praying to Allah.
Next we should ban man/dog marriage.
You mean man/dog sex — a la Frothy. Man/dog marriage? The jury is still out on that.
Wednesday morning kitties…
Frothy Mixture would like that.
Good morning pups.
But, when the Jewish law conflicts with county, state or fed laws, then what?
Tennessee isn’t the only state attempting to pass some form of Sharia ban GeneralNonsense.
Sooner or later, that’s not going to end well.
Margaret, you are right, but the article cited above specifically discussed Tennessee. That is why I linked the Tennessee bill.
You mean Hasidics, like the people who cut a 63 year old woman out of a picture because showing her might be too “sexy” for their readers? Yep. Waaaaaaaaav better than Sharia.
So you’re okay with the bill?
Not really, but mostly because I think it is a waste of time. I don’t think it demonstrates evidence of bigotry, just thoughtlessness.
Here’s my response to the newspaper image you’re referring to.
I saw that. Plus the woman in the back. Why are these hard card religious people so afraid of women? Fundies in all three major religions have this patriarchal bent on keeping women “in their place.”
Far out. You should send it to the paper.
I see you’re still into semantic dodges. Subsidies are deductions. Bigotry is thoughtlessness.
Something tells me that I wouldn’t get a response.
William Black interviewed by Harry Shearer. Good stuff…
*snort* Willful ignorance and bigotry would be my call.
True but let’s get real here. This bill and others like it have nothing to do with “terrorism” or support for the same. Terrorism is an excuse to demonize a whole group of people in order to get fearful people to the polls and unsurprisingly, you’re defending it. Why? You’re obviously not stupid. Are you that afraid of teh Muslim or are you just a bigot? Because I can’t see any other reason why you would go out of your way to defend such abominable legislation. Or maybe you’re just the kind of person who has to be the center of attention so s/he takes the most unpopular position imaginable.
Ah! GeneralPudding = gvandergrift everybody. Scroll.
This guy and HeadedWest should team up. Laugh a minute.
You’re much better with photoshop thn the Hasidics.
About GOP bigotry,
Did someone empty into TN a looney bin or two?
I’ve hearing more and more about men feeling threatened by woman. I thought we were past that. Three steps backward, I guess.
If it’s not Al Quada or people of color, it must be the wimmin’s fault. Is this a symptom of feeling a loss of control?
I just got The Lies of Sarah Palin on my iPad yesterday. Still finishing Wichita Divide, about Tiller’s murder, then will dig into the new one. It will be interesting to compare the Atlantic article (I only glanced at the lede) with the Dunn book.
The Tea Party has allowed bigots everywhere to come sliming out of the woodwork.
I second that. But of course, if they won’t publish a photo of a woman, it would never see the light of day.
econobuzz, I prefer in labeling things according to what they actually are, not according to what I would like them to be. A tax deduction is a tax deduction, it is not a subsidy. If someone is careless, it does not necessarily imply malicious intent.
There are many people who believe Republicans are simply irredeemable bigots, regardless of what the truth of a situation might entail. So they tend to frame and twist issues which tends to ‘prove’ Republican bigotry even when an alternative explanation, that does not rely on the bigotry motivation, seems more likely. I try to find the reasonable explanations, instead of just the easy ones which just reaffirm my worldview. I’m not always successful but at least I make the effort. Contrast this to the ThinkProgress story cited above, which dishonestly characterized the Sharia bill as outlawing the practice of Islam by two people. The intent there is clearly not to find a reasonable explanation, but to distort the truth so that it fits neatly within the ‘Republican bigotry’ angle.
No but it would scandalize the boys in the newsroom.
I guess so!
Busy morning ahead, so I’m off. Have a good one, everyone!
There are many people who believe Republicans are simply irredeemable bigots, regardless of what the truth of a situation might entail.
Point out some of the “irredeemable bigotry” — of which there is a boatload — and then I’ll listen to your version of the “truth.”
Terrorism is an excuse to demonize a whole group of people in order to get fearful people to the polls
I don’t accept your premise. It is far too cynical and paranoid. There are of course very real concerns with regards to terrorism, and there are very real instances of the legal portions (not the behavioral portions) of Sharia law being imposed by secular courts even in Western countries. On the list of things to worry about in this country I think Sharia Law is pretty low on the list which is why I think the Tennessee bill is a waste of time. But I don’t accept your cynical premise.
I wanna know why these reichwing shills still come here to sell their horseshit.
econobuzz I am unclear as to what you are asking of me. I do not believe Republicans as a group are irredeemable bigots. Of course in any large group of people there are going to be a few bigots here and there. That goes for Democrats as well. But it is not a defining characteristic of Republicans any more than anti-Semitism is a defining characteristic of Democrats because there happens to be a few anti-Semites who call themselves Democrats.
Perhaps a “do not feed” is in order.
SouthernDragon, I am just trying to have a civil conversation. I think I’ve been courteous with my tone. I really do believe that a big reason why many liberals have such a distorted view of conservatives, and vice-versa, is because their only real exposure to the other group is via mass media caricatures. I’m here as a conservative-leaning person who isn’t just some right-wing caricature. I’m not a paid shill. I don’t want to throw women, blacks and gays in jail. I don’t want to shred the Constitution nor shred the social safety net. In short I’m not a fire-breathing monster. So I don’t really appreciate being associated with Nazis, quite frankly.
Save it gevandergrift. I don’t accept the premise that you are not a sock puppet.
Is anyone else here planning on being at the webinar tonight? I’m looking forward to hearing what pups have to say.
I don’t even know who “gevandergrift” is.
Time for troll bingo.
I’ll be there.
Cool. I’m remembering a thread that Christy HS led several years ago, when we were talking about Constitutional Law, where we decided that we should ask candidates who they would support for SCOTUS positions. I think I’ll bring that up tonight. Trying to remember all the issues we’ve brought up here in the last several years.
The thing is, there are plenty of “Christian” organizations around who have committed terrorism, yet none of them are being subjected to the kind of hysteria found in these anti Sharia ordinances. I don’t see anybody suggesting laws that say the two Anglicans are a terrorist organization or that two Irish Catholics must be automatically suspected of materially supporting terrorist activities. Until I see such laws passed in these same states, anti Sharia laws are an expression of prejudice and intolerance of brown people.
Of course you don’t.
Call me a troll if you wish, but – answer this honestly, would you prefer to have discussions only with people who will agree with you, or would you rather have discussions with people who might challenge your point of view in a respectful manner? Personally I find it boring and tedious to be surrounded by people who will always only say “I agree with you”.
Actually, I live in an increasingly Hassidic neighborhood, and there have been a few issues, like when they tried to put their fence (whatever they call it, I don’t remember) around our public park. Also a lot of parking problems, since they seem to think that God says its o.k. to leave their (very big) vans in the middle of the street blocking traffic while they chat with each other like they were back in the shtetl. They tried to impose their version of sharia in a small town up north in the Laurentians, but failed.
I’m not going to attempt it. In and effort to save money, I’ve switched cell phone carriers and my signal isn’t reliable enough to try to participate in a webinar.
If I’m just being a troll, why would I post a link to the actual Tennessee bill summary, and instead of, oh I don’t know, some link to freerepublic.com or something?
Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.
US KIA Afghanistan: 1,571
US KIA Irak: 4,452
Iraki, Afghan and Pakistani casualties: estimates vary to over 1.5M
US MBS 2011: 16.120 and counting
Hurdy Gurdy Man
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things
No war but class war
Never. Give. Up.
The soothsayer would have already told me I’m out of my depth then call me a liar.
I didn’t participate on the first one and I’m not sure how it works. I’ll have to read up on that.
I’m trying to be more involved in group discussions, as opposed to commenting on threads. There’s a townhall meeting nearby on Saturday evening, but I’ll have been working (really hard) that day for the Stamp Out Hunger event and most likely I’ll be pooped. We had a big news conference in the warehouse yesterday and as soon as there’s something online I can link to, I’ll write a diary about it. Postal carriers all over the US will be picking up bags of donations from people’s home that day and I want everyone here to be aware of that.
It’s pointless to attempt a conversation with someone who has the position that laws like that being advanced in Tennessee aren’t bigotry. That’s because no rational person would have that opinion. I’m not going to try to convert a Ku Klux Klansman either because it is a waste of time. I love to debate with people who are open to new ideas but bigots, by definition, are not. Ideologues, left or right, do not want conversation, they want to impose their belief structure upon everybody else and brook no dissent. When confronted with facts and rational argument, they resort to ignoring them or linguistic acrobatics in order to keep their belief intact. You have demonstrated both of those tactics just this morning.
I’m finished with you. If you aren’t gvandergrift, then you may now join him/her on the list of people I find it pointless to try to talk to.
Pretty simple. If you don’t have a mic/headset you can type stuff in. There’ll be a box in the upper right hand corner once you check in and the software loads that will explain it all.
Gotcha. Thanks. See you then.
These are the people who have been telling us that they are the tolerant, loving and accepting ones. They are not tolerant or accepting. They accuse others of hate and intolerance and yet, by their behavior they show themselves again and again to be the hypocrites they are. They are incapable of seeing the irony of the situation; that those who preach “tolerance” are intolerant, and those who champion “love” exude hate. They are trained by the left and the liberal media to salivate at the mere mention of the words “conservative” “Republican” “right,” “Christian,” and “Bush”.
So don’t even try to reason with them..it is futile..but it is a must to get in here and voice your opinion..We can never let them forget that their world includes us, that we do exist, and in ever increasing numbers.
and in ever increasing numbers.
Dream on, Sparky.
Now, now, SD. Remember the song and just “Walk on by…” When it comes to alamode, ignoreance is bliss, if you catch my drift…
Yeah, I know, but I like givin’ it to ‘em when they show up and spout their shit after everybody’s moved on.
Your “Towns under Orthodox Jewish law” must mean the towns with percentages of Orthodox Jews like those in Rockland County, New York and in Kiryas Joel, New York that you link to – but they are not under state imposed “Orthodox Jewish law” – indeed no such place exists in the US. Kiryas Joel, New York is allowed to have Jewish schools by New York State but then is religious schools as part of the towns schooling the problem?
But then no place under state imposed Orthodox Jewish, Mennonite, Baptist, Roman Catholic, or Sharia Law exists in the US, although some locations try to remove religion in the public square and force the religious into closets as they listen to atheist advice on what it means to have religious freedom.
Groups of folks can agree to be bound by any rules that they wish to have – but that is not state imposed in any area – and the rules may not conflict with state and local and federal law.
I have not agreed with you in a while – but here we totally agree – quoting from your link: You commit a class B felony if you help a Sharia organization defined as
“(1) The organization knowingly adheres to sharia;
(2) The organization engages in, or retains the capability and intent to engage in, an act of terrorism; and
(3) The act of terrorism of the organization threatens the security or public safety of this state’s residents.
This bill defines “sharia” as the set of rules, precepts, instructions, or edicts which are said to emanate directly or indirectly from the god of Allah or the prophet Mohammed and which include directly or indirectly the encouragement of any person to support the abrogation, destruction, or violation of the United States or Tennessee Constitutions, or the destruction of the national existence of the United States or the sovereignty of this state, and which includes among other methods to achieve these ends, the likely use of imminent violence. Under this bill, any rule, precept, instruction, or edict arising directly from the extant rulings of any of the authoritative schools of Islamic jurisprudence of Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanbali, Ja’afariya, or Salafi, as those terms are used by sharia adherents, is prima facie sharia without any further evidentiary showing.”
I like your approach of providing a link – I like to think it is the FDL preferred approach, albeit quick response is often memory based.
I don’t think you’ve done close reading of the law proposed for Tenn – it is just another “if you help terrorists you go to jail” law, but on the state level and is an attempt to preclude a “religious freedom” defense to the charge – albeit aimed only at Islamic advocates of terrorism and not all advocates of terrorism that come to their position from religious believes (I’d prefer that later approach but that would offend the kill the doctor anti-abortion folks – yes I hate this law because it excludes the kill the doctor crowd – but it is hard to dump on a simple anti-terrorist bill).
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