At any other time, this might have seemed like a pretty good couple of days for progressives. The Democrats in the House of Representatives showed unusual unanimity today in opposing the social-Darwinist GOP budget devised by Paul Ryan.
And after an abortive attempt earlier this month to throw a wrench into the Republican majority’s legislative machinery, Nancy Pelosi & Co. were more effective in embarrassing the Republicans by nearly causing them to accidentally approve an even more draconian budget plan.
What’s more, these events come only two days after President Obama gave a substantially more liberal address on addressing the nation’s long-term debt than many observers expected, refusing to endorse benefit cuts to Medicare and Social Security (again, contrary to widespread fears) and laying out a fundamentally progressive case for the role of government and increasing taxes on the wealthy.
But in reading blogs here and elsewhere, progressives still appear to be deeply unsatisfied. It’s hard to argue against the sense that after all the compromises and defeats of the past two years — including last week’s spending-cut deal to avoid a government shutdown — what’s happened since Wednesday is simply too little and too late to stir much enthusiasm.
Still, though, there’s a fine line between disappointment and defeatism, and I fear that many on the left may have crossed this line. Obama’s debt speech, after all, wasn’t preceded by anything resembling angry resistance, but rather by expressions of submission and surrender. In trying to dispute a similar sentiment posted here (accurately, but in vain, judging from the other comments), I said, “… to me, it seems more like the ‘hippies’ are so used to being punched that sometimes they start pre-emptively punching themselves just because they can’t stand the suspense.”
Indeed, much of the reaction from bloggers who had predicted the worst from Obama’s speech was reminiscent of the grudging goalpost-moving by those end-of-the-world cults who find themselves still around the promised doomsday — sure, he didn’t sell us out last night, but he will eventually, I’m sure of it! One would like to believe that this stems from confidence in their analysis rather than a stubborn refusal to admit ever being wrong (a blogging tic with which I, of course — *cough* — am completely unfamiliar), but you never know.
None of this is to deny, of course, the innumerable disappointments that have been inflicted on us by Obama and the Democrats in Congress since 2008, or that any belated spinefulness occurring now is anything but an election-driven conversion. But even there, I think there’s hope — after all, the next election is still more than 18 months away, and the recognition by Democrats in power that pretending (at least) to have a progressive agenda is in their electoral interests ought to be something we can leverage somehow, shouldn’t it?
It would be a shame if, out of burnout or hurt feelings, we didn’t even try. Because for all the pessimism that Obama or the Democrats on Capitol Hill won’t ever bring about progressive change, I’m fairly certain that self-pity won’t, either.




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swopa!
Swopa! Salute!
*salutes*
Swopa!
Sigh. Where have I heard this before? “I swear, I just know if I give him one more chance, this time he’ll stop hitting me.”
And the response from religionists who have had their doomsday pass is to become aggressive proselytizers, not to change the conditions of the doomsday.
I missed you having said that; I was thinking along the lines of, ‘We’re going to get punched anyway, so we might as well get to at least decide the ‘when’.‘
Yours is better.
Swopa!
Considering Obama’s past behaviour and contempt for progressives, most of us were thinking that his “debt” speech would have started out with “God bless Paul Ryan, my good friend!”.
I guess the political operatives at this White House finally got through to Obama by saying “I helped the GOP kill Medicare!” isn’t a winning slogan for re-election, even if it bipartisan. And it turns out that someone told Obama that moderates and independents LIKE Medicare and Social Security. Some of them even benefit from the program.
Kissing GOP ass doesn’t impress independents. Destroying popular social programs doesn’t impress them either.
Yawn… Yeah, Obama has our interests at heart. NOT!
Oh wait, didn’t he just say he was running for re-election? Hurm, which is more likely that our President has had a change of heart and seen the err of his ways, or is it that he is pandering and just doing his standard kabuki to make us like him more and try to sway us to vote for him?
Yeah.. I’m sure he’s the most liberal advocate’s dream now.
Whatever. He and the Republicans and the Democratic party can all go take a flying leap for all I care. They have all failed the people. Repeatedly. Nothing has changed.
Finally, some actual rational wisdom.
Fuck Obama’s liberal address. Talk is fucking cheap. That asshole has to make major fucking reparations before I will vote for his sorry Reagan ass.
This “open mic incident” that just happened – was clearly intentional. Somebody dug up some numbers to show that Prez O is seen as always caving, so he “leaked” some tough talk to show what a tough guy he is in behind closed doors negotiations – without having to, you know, be tough in actual negotiations.
His budget speech was standard bullshit. “Here’s my great plan. In only 20 years it will show great results, assuming all our predictions come to pass and no future administrations change anything, or there aren’t any recessions, or none of our 104 nuclear plants melt down, or no tsunami wipes out the Oregon coast and runs up the Columbia to Portland. Sure, during my administration nothing will happen, but just as soon as I’m pensioned off, the results will start rolling in!”
We get that for economic policy, for energy policy, for public transport, for health care.
Bah. I’ve seen this movie in Colorado.
All Obama cares about is Obama and term #2. The state Dem party in CO is neutered as the OFA machine completes it’s next objective, which is to make Obama have Prez cycle#2. That’s it.
OFA don’t give one shit about local Dems and that’s a big problem for local Dems.
Think about it; Obama’s mentor in the Senate was Lieberman, you know LiebermanForConnecticut. ObamaForAmerica. Get it?
Bwhahaha…
Chaos on House floor as Democrats try to unsettle GOP budget during vote…
Where’s that same fight from the Dims on other House bills of late…?
If no one else, that person might have been Bill Clinton (whom Obama spoke with extensively last winter after finding himself in the same boat Clinton was in during 1995).
I wrote in early March that Obama was starting to follow the Clinton blueprint, but hadn’t made the stand Clinton did against cuts in Medicare/Social Security, etc. So during Obama’s speech on Wednesday, I was nodding my head and saying, “Ah, there it is.”
Not that anyone should be turning cartwheels because Obama is walking in Clinton’s footsteps (which included declaring “the era of big government is over” and endorsing a balanced budget). But for better or worse, that’s what he’s doing.
“the nation’s long-term debt” is a not a real problem, it’s a make believe one…. which means the only kind of liberal in president obama’s address was neoliberal. unfortunately it was also filled with bat-shit-crazy misinformation.
i may be a dfh but i didn’t pre-emptively punch myself or anyone else. anytime anyone who call themselves progressive want to start acting progressive, i’m going to do is cheer. but pre-emptively cheering just makes me cross.
Be cross. It won’t help.
You have to SELL MMT. You can’t just be right about an issue. See Spocko for how you actually make it happen. It is in the framing.
Say things like “Every billion in cuts to the deficit kills 5,000 jobs.”
Thanks for pointing out the open mic plant. I hadn’t picked that up.
endorsing a balanced budget is worse. no sense not saying so.
The Democratic Majorities in the House and Senate need not have been laid to waste. A bullshit Health
CareInsurance reform bill did that. There were no pleas from the Merkun Public – no demands for resuscitating the Republican Party that Dubya had nearly destroyed.Nobody much cared for bailing out TBTF banks – guaranteeing their recovery at our expense.
Team Obama did that.
So long as we continue to believe in the Democratic Party, we will get the same Centrism that moves further to the right.
Lucy, Charlie Brown, Football.
Raising the age-old Q of whether preemptive cheering is better than no cheering at all.
One reason I didn’t support Obama in the primary was his support of Lieberman in 2006. That said so very much about him.
See my #16. Tell Swopa what to say!
So many “tells,” so little space.
I know I’ve told ya once or twice before that I luv’d ya, right…? ;-)
Until he does something substantive and dramatic about our rapidly deteriorating biosphere, and shut down our permanent war psychosis he is just another adversary/hack that needs to be voted out.
Please Social Darwinists they all tend to be Parasites justifying eating the host organism until it dies Social Darwin sounds cool but truth in advertising would say Easter Island lets cut down the last tree I want to build a yacht!
Consumer goods to satisfy the rich’s desires now are much more important than long term survival!
Swopa, well said.
As we prepare for the 2012 budget battle, which could define our nation for a generation or more, we know our leader, like it or not, is going to be Obama.
Does it serve our purposes to trash him over this, that and every damn thing as this seminal battle looms before us? Does politically weakening him, alienating him even more from the progressive community, and emboldening our enemies make sense at this critical juncture?
Or, where we can, like after Wednesday’s economic speech, should we build Obama up and encourage him to listen to the better angels of his nature?
I think the latter is where wisdom lies.
Obama’s words don’t matter.
He’s had more than two years to prove that to us.
As the teabaggers say, in a completely different context:
Hi honey – that’s a big deal.
See, he has made his own machine – OFA. It will use brain-dead Dems, as well as it’s own machine.
That Is What Happened In CO-SEN. And it will happen elsewhere.
The local Dem parties are salvageable, but not if OFA runs over them.
i’ll just repeat the same thing i wrote last time you wrote that:
…..
look, if you disagree with me, then please tell me why. maybe i’m wrong. i’ve been wrong before. let’s figure it out together.
otoh, if you think i’m right, then please be my guest and help spread the word in whatever way you are good at and comfortable with.
but please stop berating me for not doing what i am uncomfortable, unwilling and unable to do.
LOL!
thanks, i need a laugh. :)
Well, most people cite the FISA vote but I tried to point out the LIEberman love for two fucking years but got pretty roundly badmouthed by the majority of the liberal blogosphere. I started calling him ORAHMa in 2006, right here on FDL I believe because of his tendency to support conventional party candidates. Him supporting Short Ride after Lamont won the primary was inexcusable and indefensible.
luv you right back!
you were way ahead of me. it took the fisa turn-around to convince me (and the neoliberal econ team right after that).
All Star Cast of Better Angels:
Ben Bernanke, Tim Geithner, Robert Gates, Petreaus, Holder, Clinton, Daley, Emmanuel, Biden, Lieberman, Boehner, Harry Reid, Dyncorp, BP, Pete Petersen, AT&T, Halliburton, NCLB, Bush Tax Cuts, Jamie Dimon, Jeffrey Immelt…
Yes – because when push comes to
shoveRepublican arched eyebrows Obama will sell working class Americans out in a heartbeat just as he has for the last two years.I’m not berating you. I’m asking you to compel, not just take the position of being CORRECT.
Who cares if you’re right? No one.
Can you change people’s thinking? Total game changer.
Changed my mind. I’m just saying sell it, don’t bitch it.
I’m not trashing Obama.
He’s trashing me and everything I believe in. Talking a different game before re-election means absolutely nothing to me. Look how awful he’s been with historic majorities in both Houses, after being elected with a larger majority than any non-incumbent Democrat in since, like, forever.
Think of how dangerous he’ll be when he doesn’t have to worry about re-election.
I keep saying that Obama doesn’t want jobs gains for the same reason the Republicans didn’t: First because they service their corporate overlords first and second, because the Democrats think, (probably correctly),that unemployment is going to be blamed on House Republicans and because they think, (also correctly), that compared to the batshittery from the right, Obama will look like the only viable choice. People don’t mind electing imbeciles during good times. Look at the Chimp.
hey selise always good to see your fonts
selise – you’re doing great work.
nice to see you all over this place again.
Uh that would be me and eCHAN Obama surrenders faster than France he gives in quicker than a GOP virgin partying at a cemetery.
No girl parties at midnight with Satanists at a graveyard and stays a virgin.
For more bad lies
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-13-dumbest-christine-odonnell-quotes
*latte comin’ at ya*
I’m not into local politics, as my background is macro.
But am now learning more about local. Cuomo (NY gov-DINO) is prolly to the right of NJ’s Christie, though Cuomo, like O, is smart enough to moderate his righty extremist policies in lefty-friendly rhetoric.
Really local D emails show no recognition about how much they’ve been coopted by those at the top. And Hinchey, local congressional rep, and formerly progressive (aging, it must be mentioned) has been hemmed in by O putting him in the veal pen, and almost losing his last election to gas fracking money, an issue he has firmly fought for years.
Here’s what Obama said: “So here’s the truth. Around two-thirds of our budget is spent on Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and national security. … So any serious plan to tackle our deficit will require us to put everything on the table…” He’s just greasing the wheels for the dismantling of Social Security. How the heck can any progressive be acquiescent about a statement like that? If you don’t think this guy is out to get you, you’re not paying attention.
Tell Jane she is the snark master on Holy Joe:) Let her compare Joe to Obama and well none of us here could do better Snark on that subject.
That speech only taught me one thing: He’s still good at making speeches. History tells us that his speeches are not synonymous with his actions though.
Which is all fine, as it goes.
Throw some sand into the machine. That right up your skeptic alley. You’re actually the perfect person to do that.
yep. Out and out lie. Social Security has exactly zero to do with any deficit. That statement is indefensible.
Debt levels in Japan are much higher I know that but how about their credit rating interest they pay on their debt? What other first world nations have higher debt and how are they doing? Don’t expect an answer now but this is your area of expertise how the Debt really doesn’t matter.
Japan spends on healthcare and to create jobs could there debt br more stable than ours reflected by lower interest rates ( that fact I have not checked yet ) because they spend on stuff that helps their economy?
Unless Obama subtantially cuts the defense budget, I don’t want to hear about shared sacrifice. Get totally out of Iraq and Afghanistan and then talk to me about how you care about cutting the deficit. Withdraw from our empire and then let’s talk about how concerned you are. That open mic thing was pretty cool but notice he said nothing about how EPA got reduced by 16%. Health care is worthless on a desiccated and dying planet.
Courage would be cutting the defense budget by 50%. Someone pls explain why we needed to double the defense budget in 10 years.
I will be on medicare in 7 months. Thanks. But that is not good enough and it doesn’t take a lot of courage to defend medicare. Ryan is trying to make it like Obamacare where we give all our money to the health insurance companies. Obama didn’t lift a finger to get a public option which would have saved premium payers some money. Too late, Obama. One speech is not going to turn around your piss poor performance.
i’m only allowed to link to my diary (that does the explaining) once a day. give me 3 min and i will link to it again… the least i can do without it is to state my position and hope to be challenged or engaged in some way. that’s the best i can do.
i seriously suck at persuasion. i know that, it’s not news to me. i’m much better at figuring stuff out.
you can berate me for my inadequacies all day long, but it’s not going to make me any better at persuasion (and i refuse to try to sell when i know i’ve been wrong before and may very well be again).
LOL.
I did personally, face-to-face, confront Hinchey at a local (maybe 30 peeps) meeting in August. He told me I was wrong, and I told him he was. Issues were HCR and Afghan war.
And I’ve sent him several emails in response to the cspan vote emails I’ve signed up for.
Still figuring out what might have an influence, however slight, and what is futile.
Real novice in this stuff.
Why must everything be put on the table. Put on the table those things that are clearly wasteful and do not serve their intended purpose. That would be the defense budget. Shared sacrifice should not include things like social security and health care. These are life and death issues. The Defense budget pretends to be. But we have been punked for decades by the military industrial complex.
Yes, and I voted for Obama because of his supposed ‘courage’. Jipped again by the DNC.
Unless Obama substantially cuts the defense budget AND raises the SS cap AND returns tax levels to the Clinton era, I don’t want to hear about shared sacrifice. It’s going to take all three of those before I’ll consider the sacrifice beginning to be shared. I also want to see a whole lotta Obamabots and right wingers in the unemployment line before anybody else bleats to me about “shared Sacrifice”. They have no idea what they are saying and are just talking out their collective ass. I continually remind people painting a rosy picture what it really means to be long term unemployed, with the result that people are sick of hearing about it. If they don’t want to hear it, then they can at least try to object to the status quo.
Well fercryingoutloud, how do you expect me to persuade others if you won’t?
Jeebus, I got the message and will preach it all day long “Current deficit – GOOD, should be bigger right now!”
You can’t sell it? Your problem even though I’m in that trench with you.
i agree it matters where the spending goes. i’m pretty sure though that what obama said in his speech, for example:
and
is totally wrong: private sector fiances were in horrible shape by the year 2000. that’s the flip side of public sector surpluses.
hi newt and suz, nice to see you too. thanks for the kind welcome.
Who is Gene Sperling? Who is John Galt? Nobody knows or cares. But this Sperling who is an Obama Capo is making secret deals without telling Congress, or at least Democrats in Congress. Old School, sure.
It does look as if “Catfood II The Quickening” is being planned to enrich the already rich. Louisiana shrimp, and Fukushima sushi will be on the new Catfood menu.
Selise provides the ideas we can sell it. She is working hard at understanding stuff I have trouble with its not dumbing down selling the truth requires as much thought or more to explain to regular people.
If Selise finds the truth then the rest of us can sell. Ask her to do both fine get Jane to put her on the payroll so she can do it fulltime.
Selise has been talking Economics since before the early morning threads she does great and makes points with people who know something about economics.
One of the whole point of comments is to provide different takes on ideas and make them more understandable.
Ask her questions learn state your understanding of her ideas your own more understandable way.
Argue with her until you understand Selise can take it:)
it’s after midnight my time. here’s my diary link for the day:
USG deficits: The Economics, the Politics, the Banksters and You.
hope it helps.
We all know the lies, and many of us know the (shared) solutions, but Obama seems to believe the lies are working and refuses our (sane shared) solutions.
You do a great job, M’dear…! *g*
Yep. If you believe something then you have two options: To either keep that knowledge to yourself or to persuade others to that belief. Typing about it in this echo chamber we have is all very satisfying but it’s important to try to educate people around you. People who have never heard of FDL. I look at them as cartoon ostriches with their heads buried. I try to yank as many heads out as I can and if I’m a big downer, so the fuck what?
That’s sooner than Ryan’s plan will produce the results he’s promising.
No one person can sell an idea, even a good idea.
Most of that speech he plagiarized and got away with it (until now). On the 1040 booklets the IRS always printed the pie chart and explanation of revenues and expenditures. This year the IRS stopped mailing them. It was Barack H. Obama’s finest teachable moment.
I’ve read that. I get it. I am trying to convince others.
That is where you and Joe fall down.
Convincing others. I am doing my best. So quit saying I am berating you, as I am not.
Guess I’m going to turn in. I get to do manual labor for the next couple of days for roughly one quarter of what I used to make collecting and analyzing patient data. I hope my 50 year old body is up to it but I have to do it because that’s what’s available right now. Oya.
What you just typed is a problem.
I don’t know how to overcome that – yet.
But I do think it’s overcomeable. I just don’t know how at the moment.
Peeps should be so rich.
Very clever positioning of the issues.
You know one question I’ve not seen asked by our MSM and even the BBC, in their mad dash to report that Ghaddaffi’s using ‘clusterbombs’ on civilians, is where he’d obtained them from…! Take a wild guess where…! Btw, this is highly reminiscent of Saddam’s ‘Germs’ that Ray-gun had provided him in ’85…!
I don’t know how to either but until I figure it out, I guess people are just going to have to be annoyed with me. They may stay pissed off at me but as intelligent people, they’ll start pushing the facts around on their own and see what time it is in this country.
Are you YouTubegenic?
*heh* What about that whole ‘Hopey-Changey’ thingy…? ;-)
Spending matters because Obama is spending on wars that don’t produce benefit to society after the product is made.
I make a gun I pay the employees the economic benefit is done because the gun goes to Iraq. I build a bridge in Minnesota so nobody dies on an old bridge in Minnesota all those people are alive today to contribute to the economy.
All those trucks waiting because the bridge collapsed get their deliveries done on time.
Obama’s talk about Debt forgets the possible benefit of what else that Dollar could have bought and is that more valuable than what we spend our money on now?
Japan has more debt but they spend on whats more valuable than us.
I know you say debt does not matter but if we spend the debt on stupid shit that does not help our economy then I think debt does matter?
Why, I imagine one of the only countries that didn’t sign the clusterbomb ban and the only one which still manufactures them.
Ahh, you know what?
We need to figure out the “Annoying Dance.”
And dance the shit out of it. Forever.
g’nite margaret
They are selling Gulf Shrimp? Get names of what stores and restaurants are buying and me and Spocko will be singing your praises.
If by one person you mean TeamObama™ (having co-opted and subsequently throttled and ruined Governor Dean’s 50-State vision), yeah, than it’s one person.
I read recently that you have been involved in grass roots politics for a long time. Have you written a diary or otherwise communicated what you have found effective & vice versa? For novices like me it would be useful not to rediscover the wheel.
Having said that, we all have different skills. Mine surely do not lie in convincing others. I have always thought that if I work out the analysis carefully and explain it in simple declarative sentences, surely everyone would understand.
That has turned out to be so far from reality, that I blush at my naivite. But I’m willing to work at it.
Well put me as surprised you two missed it.
This ‘open mike’ thing was meant to be the frosting on the cake.
I liked it. However….
They correctly assumed it would have been ‘great but talk is cheap’ to most progressives.
Then what about Manning, mccrystal,(carney told Jake Tapper that the President was ‘aware of his resume’), holder not acting on what Sen Levin concluded about banksters, Libya.
Also his numbers are tanking into the low 40′s.
Today’s jobless claims were north of 400K.
Not a syllable about employment or 99ers.
For a guy who was stung with crackers clutching bibles and rifles in San Fransisco two years ago, there aren’t any ‘open mikes’.
Back it up barry, then I’ll be there.
RE clusterbombs. I noticed that corp media in condemning Gaddfi’s usage cited widespread country condemnation of them, without citing that U.S. was one of the countries that still used them and didn’t condemn them.
not in the slightest. and cameras make me break out in hives (ok, not really, but you get the idea) :(
ecahn has real MSM experience though…
Well, I’d caucused and voted for Senator Obama, not, Team Obama, that’s for sure…!~ ;-)
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/53177.html#ixzz1JemQUpZ3
Obama wants budget deal made before the blogs can look at the details? I smell a rat.
Speaking for selise, she’s one of the bestest peeps I’ve known. Not seen her on the toobz, though.
I do not understand enough to say you are “wrong” – and econ theory may not have much “right” and “wrong” once you get by the identities in aggregate econ numbers for an economy (the factoring in of “what will the population do” is more art than science).
But I get the impression that “innovation” in MMT is a fudge factor for growth that occurs that produces a world wide increase in net worth – as in “savings” are not offset “debt”.
Is this a correct interpretation of the buzz words in MMT?
We’re the only ones still manufacturing them, first of all… And yes, we still use them often in Afghanistan/Iraq/ad nauseum…!
Not that I ever convinced a single soul.
My fave traveling companion over the years and I used to talk about this. I always felt that I was locked in one of those sound-proofed boxes that the $64,000 Q used, speaking Greek, while everyone else was speaking Latin.
quantitative: i think size of deficit spending matters too, just not in the way that obama said it does.
qualitative: i’d guess we all think where the spending goes matters, but have different ideas on where it should go. i want public spending for investments in the well being of all the our nation’s citizens (without causing harm to others). stuff like full employment, infrastructure, universal health care, education and pensions, institutions to reconfigure our energy use and infrastructure, care for the environment, etc.
You’d think that would be one of the simplist points to communicate, but you would be wrong.
Not to mention Israel…
Exactly. I did not include the next Obama Cave-In mentioned. Obviously any pro Obama D’s remaining will interpret that as the best deal that anyone could ever get anytime anyway. And Obama is the smartest person ever.
It is shocking and awesome how the Obama neo-cons neutered Anti-war, pro-job D’s into submission to the New World Order.
Do you use a Mac, and if yes, have you used iMovie?
You know, I have changed my mind about effectiveness. I haven’t gotten around to the whole diary yet but I’ll give this piece away that I found via some consultants:
So I’m changing my way about ASKING.
Well, I do admire ya for having cracked, if not shattering, the ‘Glass Ceiling’ on Wall Street, M’dear…! *g*
What???!!!
O is not the smartest 3D 11-dimensional paper-rock-scissors player evah.
Color me a fool. I labor under the illusion that I unnerstan the world as it actually is, while O walks all over me.
Got permanent bruises on top of my head from trying.
not like 2+2 = 4 (although i think it helps to be able to add).
economics, as far as i can tell, is a human cultural construct. always changing.
social science. physical. biological. complex systems theory. history (especially of institutions). all and more i think have insights into understanding, exploring and extending policy space.
but some of the stuff is really really fundamental (to defining the policy options), and what our politicians and pundits are telling us is all wrong. i’m just hoping we can throw overboard some of our indoctrination so we can better advocate for policies that will function to express our values and not end up doing the opposite
… don’t think i understand the last part of your question though. or at least not well enough to attempt a semi-coherent response.
i’m only allowed to link to my diary (that does the explaining) once a day. give me 3 min and i will link to it again… the least i can do without it is to state my position and hope to be challenged or engaged in some way. that’s the best i can do.
i seriously suck at persuasion. i know that, it’s not news to me. i’m much better at figuring stuff out.
you can berate me for my inadequacies all day long, but it’s not going to make me any better at persuasion (and i refuse to try to sell when i know i’ve been wrong before and may very well be again).
Selise I do ideas and persuasion grammar and well sanity not so much but for people who know something about economics you talk great for experts like eCHAN I can’t speak for but you are hooked on a new idea nobody else is talking about. I’m sorry but Kelly who seems interested needs ammo if he is going to fight the flack new ideas produce.
I suggested he learn by arguing/learning from you but can you meet him halfway?
Fraking comments coming so fast I can’t even work backwards and read stuff in a timely fashion and I read fast:)
Late late nite works great if we are motivated and the comments come fast:)
Forget 13 chess the guy claims to be a Chicago Po! Him and Rahm act like the loud guys Da Mayor leaves to the DA.
lol, well it was a thought. i expect you’d have a better chance than most (and certainly than me).
Wait’ll they get a hold of ‘String Theory’…! ;-)
As you know, that’s where I get hung up.
Still looking for ways around that.
I found Spocko’s efforts informative and interesting. Still thinking about ways to multiply his efforts.
I agree on the first point
The second point I agree spend on people rather than wars and bank bailouts I think we need an economic math model game based on our ideas kind of like Budget Hero
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/features/budget_hero/
But with the newest budget ideas updated real time available for every highschool and college student.
yes and yes. the imovie thing i did once last year with some video that was sent to me. first attempt, trying to go fast, lots of patching required and no mentor to advise. but you can see the results linked to here: Fiscal Sustainability Teach-In and Counter-Conference
What I think is funny, is I’ll cold call ANYONE.
I will literally cold call anyone out of the blue and just talk to them. But I have to have the sell points to have them want to continue to talk to me.
So what I want from you, Selise, Letsgetitdone, Ubetchaiam, is gimme the points to sell. Not that you’re right on the eco points – I get it.
What do I say to convince the reps?
suggestions welcome.
There are very similar versions of selise’s analysis and complaint: William Mitchell’s, for one.
Well see #109
CTuttle April 15th, 2011 at 9:29 pm @ 91
In response to eCAHNomics @ 85 (show text)
“We’re the only ones still manufacturing them, first of all… And yes, we still use them often in Afghanistan/Iraq/ad nauseum…!”
During the early part of the war in Iraq, the cluster bombs were the same color as the foor containers, both dropped by aircraft. Unfortunately, children couldn’t tell the two apart and were m,aimed and killed.
Talk about a cluster-fuck.
http://www.rawa.org/cluster2.htm
Red Cross Warns Afghan Children Off Cluster Bombs
Reuters, June 29, 2002
http://articles.cnn.com/2001-11-01/us/ret.afghan.fooddrops_1_cluster-bombs-unexploded-cluster-bomblets?_s=PM:US
U.S. changes color of food aid
The Pentagon says it is changing the color of the food aid packages being dropped over Afghanistan because of fears they could be confused with unexploded cluster bombs.
Both are yellow and approximately the same size.
In future the food packages, known as Humanitarian Daily Rations (HDR), are likely to be colored blue — although the decision on the new coloring has yet to be finalized.
Announcing the change Air Force General Richard Meyers described the possibility of a mix-up between the HDR packages and unexploded cluster bomblets as “unfortunate”.
“Unfortunate?”
Go shoot yourself you puke.
You highlight the diff between our skills perfectly.
Cold calling gives me an almost terminal case of ostrichism.
Even calling peeps I knew well gave me a case of hives. (Though, interestingly, TV was a piece of cake.)
Even though I knew that my analysis, even if wrong, would contribute to their understanding of the reality-based world. And that if we could figure out a way to communicate, we would both be better off.
Too late tonight to do it, but let’s keep it on the agenda for fresher minds.
My job, re your request, is to figure out what you can use in your cold calls.
Your job is to help me figure out how to make cold calls without pissing out the person on the other end of the line.
Oh f*ck me…! Bobo on the Newshour… “I don’t see the ‘shared scrifice’ from the middle class and our senior citizens…” Wtf…? *gah*
I didn’t say one wrong thing in my #112. Why did you edit it, Mod-on-duty?
Good call. We can do that at the end of PUAC thread, or something.
Definitely nauseating…! 8-(
Thanks for the reminder.
Yes I used to know that the color of food packets and the color of cluster bombs was the same.
So much disgusting about U.S. warz, it’s hard to keep track.
Thanks for being a conscience.
ah, maybe that’s the disconnect i wasn’t getting…..
i’m looking at this through the social movement lens. policy asks are like step 3 out of 4 and in my mind we’re early stage one:
from chapter 1 of bill moyer’s (not bill moyers) book, doing democracy.
Your comment was not edited in any way.
/~~~
Has anyone read The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make A Big Difference by Malcomb Gladwell? It is concerned with how change happens in our culture.
This short review captures the gist of the book. http://www.amazon.com/review/RLF6GDRI6TABM/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0316346624&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=
If you ever have a free & easy hour or two, you can master all the facets of iMovie, no mentor/adviser needed.
When you’re ready, you can make a DVD.
Kelly can offer to send the Rep on the other end of his cold call a copy of your DVD.
Tip: embed 100′s of subliminal messages telling the viewers they have been indoctrinated.
Or you could email me or vice versa. I’ve lost my email links bc of invasion of the body snatchers (virus) a month or so ago, but rosannecahn at aol dot com (mods do your disappearing thingy) in case you also lost mine.
But perhaps we could collaborate and come up with something to move the info forward.
I opined Selise and Letsgetitdone and Ubetchaiam should help me sell MMT in that post, by name. Didn’t make it through. I know what I typed.
4Cdave you hit the nail on the head.It would be nice to be wrong about it .But it smacks of deception !
And perhaps you might find Nudge interesting too.
LLN is up.
Please reenter the comment as best you can. Perhaps it was highlighted when you clicked ‘submit’.
However, your comment was not moderated, edited, or scrutinized by anyone back here.
/~~~
yep. i didn’t think this up on my own. it was (and is) economists like bill mitchell, james galbraith, randy wray, warren mosler, scott fullwiler, rob parenteau, marshall auerback, etc that have been my teachers.
i just went out looking for ideas that could help me make some sense of what i was seeing and reading… read a lot of nonsense, but the post-keynesians seemed to make the most sense and the ones above even more so (of the pk school).
In terms of O’s speech, I just keep thinking: won’t get fooled again. Soc sec, Medicare aren’t part of/causing the deficit. Everyone’s made all of the other relevant points. I see nada to be “hopeful” for fr O’s speech. I do what I can to talk to both conservatives & trad dems to explain my feelings about what’s happening with elites hijacking the usg. In particular discuss soc sec & how they are lying in order to rip us off. Do what I can.
Look, as helpful as that is, info wise, that’s not selling.
Selling to reps is the same as selling to constituents. Has to be easy, digestible bits. Like:
“For every Billion you cut, it’s 5,000 jobs.”
“Cuts hurt, big time. Did you know, every $1Million for bridges and roads you cut, it’s 50 jobs?”
If you can’t say that and back it up, there’s no constituency, and thus no vote.
see your 109.
I saw that comment intact.
Well there ya go. Bend over & get ready to take it. Guess my 90 yr old dad w/ Alz better get offa his lazy entitled butt & get a job!!! Bastards!
please see my #30. i can’t do that and i won’t do that. don’t know how i can be any clearer.
eCAHNomics: Libertarian paternalism sounds interesting. I will put it on my reading list. Thank you.
night all, i’m out…. sleep well….
Well, then you don’t have a rational argument for peeps to help you with MMT.
While I’ll help with the standard Keynes as regards demand supplement, it’s up to you to make an MMT argument that’s rational for the guy-on-the-street.
You can remain mystified why people don’t help with that, front page or not, until you do so. I’ve done my best.
I read it today. I likely wouldn’t have continued beyond his intro (which I labored to follow owing to his infernal case of expertosis, that affliction which prevents smart folks from realizing that not everyone already knows everything), had I not been reading your recent brief critiques of deficit obsession.
1) An economics video game to teach the masses like budget hero but updated with your ideas and the latest crap Obama and the GOP produce is my idea I want to see what regular people will cut once they compare our facts, Obama and the GOP’s.
1) a) Healthcare spending would be very interesting if we compare France to America:)
2) Getting Kelly to learn by debating you on your threads so he can learn and then explain it to other people is my other idea 2 a) Phil majors learn by arguing because we admit when we are wrong. 3) You getting paid by Jane so you can work full time explaining your ideas and learning as well as learning was another idea. 3) getting Montag, Solai, Cinnomape, Perris, Raven and me and all the old gang back together to debate stuff well thats unlikely
Cripes what more do you want:) I’m only human new ideas are my thing I rant with the best of them but how to teach new ideas to the uninformed and uncaring?
You need a highschool teacher dealing with kids hormones to get more ideas:) My Muse’s are overworked:)
thank you for trying. imo, the easiest and most fun read is warren mosler’s short book. it’s even online (pdf) so you don’t have buy it: Seven Deadly Frauds of Economic Policy.
or if you like audio and/or video better, my link at #108 has about 6 hours (5 sessions plus q&a for each).
i like 2a a lot.
and i have a friend who’s taught hs. i’ll ask her.
your muse is great… thanks for all the ideas.
Why do you think they left?
Debt does not matter Japan has way more than we do as a % of GNP. Why obviously they spend on shit that is more productive to their economy like National Healthcare and super fast trains than we do.
A government dollar spent on a gun to kill people in Iraq returns what to America? Look at Minnesota if someone ( the Feds ) built a new bridge how many lives would be saved? How many dollars would they by working push into our economy? How many people who did not die would have delivered goods/helped our economy or just gotten to work on time?
How many goods were delivered late? How many people had to waste their time driving extra time to get to another bridge after the bridge fell Time is money the average wage in Minnesota is?
The number of cars and trucks going over the bridge is?
If you want talking points do research. Selise can give a general theory. I can do questions now work to answer them and get your talking points or come up with a better theory and better questions.
Why ask Selise to do what you won’t? FDL is a group effort.
Oh, but I read it all, and it got like too easy when I realized I was in the choir. Goodnight, then, and thanks for the Mosler link, I prefer reading things that have been written.
I’m perfectly capable of learning and REPEATING what I’ve learned.
There’s no sales job here. While I “get” what selise and joe say, in the great terms, they have not made the small terms available.
As regards MMT I can say “Hey look, deficit now = good, you know why? Cause makes money available for peeps. Less deficit right now would be bad, as it would be money sucked up by government. You know, less money for you.”
Aside from that it’s difficult to explain MMT. I’m just saying, Make The Argument In Small Terms.
I’ll repeat that all fucking day long.
The Muses live to work and love to be pushed but on this topic you need a HS teacher the Muses are on strike:( I can only get so many stream of Stream of Consciousness ideas in a day if the old gang was here I could piggy back off them and get more ideas.
I think you came in at FDL’s Golden Age Sartre we never felt more alive than during the revolution is how I think the quote goes Obama killed that by killing our dreams.:(
Japan’s, e.g., economic and social policies aren’t racist, but the US policies are racist.
(Please forgive the understatement.)
I not carrying any water for Superman Light(president Obama) or the bucket it came in. If you on a slow boat to China ,it doesn’t matter who is captain ,if the course is the same. That little jester of his did not make the bird of paradise fly up my nose. As for Hope,I heard Hope was strip naked and held without bail in solitary confinement in a military jail. So I guess Hope is getting to the point of not feeling anything anymore. Maybe Hope can use Change as blanket at night on a bed of despair.
LOL! that’s great!
and now, i’m really out too.. good night…
I’ve been meaning to ask you, Kelly: Is the ‘L’ in LGBT still useful or necessary? I’m serious. My real concern: the LGBT ‘community’ comes off (to me) as a tad exclusionary, like Judaism or something. I think about frigid and impotent people, and the many asexual or post-sexual people, who no doubt feel alienated from what our culture has been highlighting for a long time. Those folks I think could be embraced (or ‘included’) as well, even though they’ve not been mistreated or marginalized, as it were. The more the merrier for everyone?
There’s no way I’d exclude the “L”. I love Lesbians. I’m just not going to “do” any of them.
I can’t spell Kelly without a couple Ls. So there you go.
I’m perfectly capable of learning and REPEATING what I’ve learned.
No if you had learned it you could explain it to someone else easy. Selise is learning new stuff but not mastering it until she learns everything she can’t explain it very well. But you and me can learn and explain a few of her ideas and by debating her force her to learn quicker.
Small Terms come out when we question the great thinkers and make them think sorry but Selise is learning new shit I know for a fact she was not talking about before. Have some compassion on the girl cramming for exams.
A better example FDR read the talking points you want are there. There is no example of Shock Doctrine economics providing the average person better living standards compared with the increase in technology.
Meaning Tech raises living standards but if more folks are poor that increase in living standards comees slower than when the average person could afford to spend more on tech whether its the latest malaria shots, farm tech or internet.
Tech depends on Maslow’s Hiearchy of needs first survival, etc must be adopted if survival does not come first then everything else fails.
Fine Selise is a friend but even though I know her ideas its hard to comment and add stuff worth saying on her threads and I knew her when she first came to the lake.
I am glad she is learning and focused though I want her to continue this train of thought.
Even if as she does so her light blazes past what I can see. Others can tell me of the light.. You want others to tell you of the light.
I’ve tried several times to tell you the light I saw.
1. Which do you think is more common (as a neutral locution): ‘She’s a lesbian’ or ‘She’s gay’?
2. Nice dodge, man.
Raven says Jane called him a troll Raven gets depressed sometimes and sees everything dark FINE I have argued with Raven when he gets like that Fracken my Dad and Brother do the same thing they get out of the depression by getting mad.
Jane and Raven well I can only hope
Solai and Cinnomape are around I don’t know but i assume they got jobs.
Montag and me were closer than Raven and me but he left why I don’t know.
Perris is trying but he is busy. Me my schedule changed but together with others I forgot to name we created the traffic that made Late late nite when FDL had only late night. We created the 2 morning threads we made FDL the first place bloggers, the MSM etc came to for news in the morning.
10-30 people created 3 new threads at FDL we never new how important we were till Karl Rove resigned and every Lurker commented that day.
Like flies to wanton boys are we to the mods,
They kill us for their sport.
Been wantin still wantin but flies don’t come maybe you need a different after shave:)
~~~ModNote: Comments insulting other commenters will result in moderation.~~~
Raven says Jane called him a troll Raven gets depressed sometimes and sees everything dark FINE I have argued with Raven when he gets like that Fracken my Dad and Brother do the same thing they get out of the depression by getting mad.
So get him mad:) But preferably not at you:)
So aptly put Swopa, “there is a fine line between disappointment and defeatism”, and we cannot afford defeatism. That would be playing right into the hands of Neocons. They’d love nothing more.
But don’t take away his pride
Agree. More smoke and screen talk, while the rest of us are left hanging, wondering if he’ll ever change. Action is real change, not talk.
Oldgold you and many others newtonsur comes to mind were a part of this but you and newt were here before me I think the newcomers like Seilse ect came and stayed because we were the only blog talking that early in the morning about intellectual stuff.
We were undisciplined and still are we may not even now be front pagers but when we Shine we can still make a thread great!
Older folks like us help make FDL what it is but FDL grew when we had those magic mornings and many now respected voices were new.
I defend Selise cause I feel I helped bring her her and convinced her to stay. She has a bunch to say but she is growing past me so i can’t feel I have much to ad to what she says but as a friend I can still defend her and try and make peace.
You add plenty you can handle people calling you wrong and still have the courage to bring up ideas you know will cause trouble at the Lake but in forcing us to think you make us stronger even if you don’t always win.
If nobody has the courage to risk a fight at the lake the lake gets shallow. We all win and lose some but by being honest when we lose we grow greater in respect.
We should do more to keep special people though identifying who is special and how to keep them is important give me 6 good commentors
Who know a subject and feel passionate about it and we can lead the rest to a 300 comment thread.
Give me 6 who know a little about everything and the odds of them feeling passionate increase no matter what the topic.
We need critical mass like a nuclear reaction.
Obama by being a sell out has hurt our passion:(
Voicing sustained anger at this bunch of sellouts and enablers – Obama and the Democratic Party = isn’t defeatism or surrender.
It’s acknowledgement of the reality that our leaders are failing the American people and relentless effort to put pressure on them to act.
Obama’s lame words of late are cheap and, in light of his presidency so far, uninspiring.
Right on. If the choice in 2012 will be between the Republican calling himself a Democrat or the Republican calling himself a Republican, I’m going to actively oppose the bullshit choice.
Obama in particular has to be opposed. At least the Republican candidate will be spouting Republican rhetoric. Obama Fraud will be making a mockery of the two-party bullshit by lying about who and what he is. He deserves to lose in a way that nothing of his third Bush term is validated.
Swopa, it’s as if we listened to two completely different speeches.
Starting about 10 minutes into the speech he started talking about ‘living within our means’ and was saying that ‘everything was on the table’. He then gave a 4 point plan for cutting our spending with a fail safe backup of further cuts.
Basically, it sounded like the IMF wrote a significant section of his speech. And when has an IMF plan ever produced anything but disaster?
Granted, he talked about putting on the kid gloves when dealing with Social Security and Medicare but if further economic disaster awaits due to Obama’s IMF plan then can we really consider those programs safe?
He might as well have said that he believes in Social Security, Medicare and budgetary blitzkrieg. People that don’t know what budgetary blitzkrieg means will just sorta phase out during that part of the speech but then positively gush when he talks about supporting Social Security and Medicare.
Never mind if he told even a single lie during that speech. If he actually does exactly what he promised in that speech it’ll be an economic disaster for the public and another victory for the right wing.
In short, his speech was sugar coated rat poison.
This post is an absolutely offensive piece of completely unwarranted optimistic garbage. It offends anyone with half a brain. Optimists and pessimists are the reason we are so screwed in the first place.
Anyone who thinks that Obama is anything more than a figure-head is delusional.
The political operatives ran his first campaign, and he just happened to be the nice-looking, eloquent black man they picked to garner votes. The banksters and corporations ran the show for 2-1/2 years. Now, once again, the political operatives are back, telling him what to do and say to get donors and voters back into the fold.
Whatever they’re selling, I’m not buying.
IMPEACHABLE?
Last Wednesday, President Obama delivered an excellent address on the deficit, budget cuts, and American values. As part of his solutions, he proposed tax increases. But he didn’t say “tax increases”. Instead, he referred to:
“reducing spending in the tax code”
I consider this linguistic atrocity to be an impeachable offense.
homer http://www.altara.blogspot.com
I did not listen to the speech.
I don’t watch him on television, in interviews, etc.
I only care about what he actually DOES…not what he says.
That’s how I’ll judge him.
He’s still surrounded by Wall Streeters, the last time I checked.
I have taken every opportunity when the Obama people call, to tear them a new one–although I always respect the actual caller. I do the same when the DNC or the DCCC call. I want them to know there are a hell of a lot of us ready to pull out, if the capitulation game continues. This is our role–to be a burr under the saddle. Don’t be ashamed of it and don’t back off. It’s important.
The only way we can have an opposition party is if there is a Republican in the White House. Then we all get mad and do something. As long as there is a Democrat in power we will find excuses to support continuing to screw ourselves. All they have to do is talk pretty and we’ll get on our knees and beg them for more.
Wow, it’s like well he said something positive since he LAST WAS CAMPAIGNING…gee maybe he really really means it this time. I’m stunned ANYONE would believe that horsecrap….
The Defense Department is one of the customers.
http://www.allgov.com/Where_is_the_Money_Going/ViewNews/Military_Steps_in_to_Buy_Up_Gulf_Seafood_110208
4 years he never heard them once…you sure those better angels are still alive ? I don’t see it at all.
Link for defense dept buying Gulf seafood:
http://www.allgov.com/Where_is_the_Money_Going/ViewNews/Military_Steps_in_to_Buy_Up_Gulf_Seafood_110208
Agreed. Accidental open mic, yeah, right. More like trying anything and everything to convice us he’s on our side. Too bad his actions show his contempt.
If I wanna vote Republican, I’ll vote for Obama.
What’s more, these events come only two days after President Obama gave a substantially more liberal address on addressing the nation’s long-term debt than many observers expected
The pretty of low expectations
so what passes for celebration these days is a democratic president being slight less republican than expected.
CORRECTION:
The pretty of low expectations
SHOULD BE:
The POVERTY of low expectations
“Hurt feelings”? “Self pity”? Obama has earned contempt through his actions and non-actions. Labeling people who voice their contempt for his actions as people indulging in ‘hurt feelings’ and ‘self pity’ is insulting at best, and much worse at worst.
One more speech filled with ‘Words’ full of promises, and taking on the latest joke of whipping boy of the Republican party, Ryan, doesn’t change or improve one bit of what Obama has thus far done and not done through his actions. “Self pity” and “Hurt feelings” don’t have a damn thing to do with contempt for the man due to what he has and has not done with his actions. His words don’t mean a thing when not followed by real world actions. In fact, his empty rhetoric just makes him that much more contemptible.
Part of me has always wondered if I could find the perfect lines to post as a troll on republical sites. Here it is from TPM. http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/04/reality_what_a_concept_1.php#more?ref=fpblg
Ayn Rand applied for and received Social Security and Medicare financial support. She used her married name O’Connor. Was it save to her reputation? (from the biography Ayn Rand and the World She Made by Anne Heller
Don’t worry, Charlie Brown, be happy. Lucy’s not going to pull away the football. She knows you’re too smart to fall for that again.
It must be nice to have a large vocabulary.
1) perris hasn’t left.
2) i know what raven has said (example).
don’t know about the rest. do you?
thanks TCU.