We humans find ourselves in an awkward – perhaps fatally awkward – circumstance. We seem unable to safely and morally manage the technologies and systems we are clever enough to invent.
From Bhopal to Chernobyl, from Three Mile Island to the Gulf Oil spill, from New Orleans levee failures to the Japan nuclear crisis, we have failed time and again to adequately prevent or prepare for man-made disasters or respond adequately when they occur. I could add other items to the list: DDT, pharmaceuticals that kill, and financial systems that destroy global economies.
We are babes in a dangerous toyland, convinced of our own Promethean powers only to be undone when our magical machines explode. We are like Grumio, Toymaker assistant in the 1961 film version of Babes in Toyland, driving our toymaking machines to the breaking point.
Human invention is not the problem. The problem is political. We lack the collective will to safely manage our systems and inventions. In the case of the grandest failure of them all – the global climate crisis – we are going to need all of our creativity and inventiveness if we are to avoid catastrophe. And we are going to need to apply that creativity as much to political problem-solving as to technological innovation.
It’s fair to say that among other differences liberals and conservatives divide along this fault line. Conservatives believe the systems are better off without human intervention, denying that they were created by our intervention in the first place! In their faith, the Free Market is Divine Providence and fallen humans should keep their sinful hands off the levers. Liberals believe we need to be more deeply engaged in the operation and management of systems we invent.
The failures noted above, of course, are not limited to capitalist democracies all of a kind. There are profound differences among governing systems in the former Soviet Union, India, Japan, and the United States. Heavy-handed centralized state management is as inadequate as our (theoretical) laissez-faire political economies.
The problem is complex and much harder to confront than it is to glibly describe. Social and political organizations are not machines. They are emotion-laden collections of diverse people and interests. We are connected to one another by fuzzy attractions and repulsions. There’s no Intel chip at our center.
I won’t digress about the ideological baggage of much science and technology, but it seems obvious that human political thought and action is so freighted with bias, self-interest and ideology that some different rules apply. The “psychohistory” of Isaac Asimov’s Foundation series – the reduction of human behavior to mathematical formulae – is science fiction.
Still, much of our political thinking follows lines similar to Asimov’s. This is ideology, whether it’s the myth of perpetual progress in classical liberal thinking, historical inevitability in Marxist thinking, or the belief in the divine status of a free market in conservative thinking. All assume their answers from the outset. All believe human behavior is predictable. All rely on a very shaky determinism.
We are not likely to find workable solutions in the so-called “Third Way,” that is nothing more than brainless compromise between inadequate approaches.
It does not mean that creative answers cannot or will not be found. As a start, we should collectively decide to apply our creativity and inventiveness to our all-too-human circumstance. Egalitarian or popular democracy is a profoundly creative approach to political, social and economic organization. We can be proud of it and other political inventions, even if we have failed to fully adopt them.
It’s not beyond or ability to safely and morally manage our systems and inventions. So far, it has been beyond our will. That, we can change.




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yup….
Your screen name says it. “Sadly yes.”
Only after the last tree has been cut down. Only after the last fish has been caught. Only after the last river has been poisoned. Only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten. Cree Nation Tribal Prophecy
Mayhaps a generation of the future will heed those words, if there is a generation of humans left to pass it on.
The Cree had it right. Here’s hoping…
another bad toy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAHmaEs5cYU
Our technology has outrun our human-ness. We have confused progress with what is right, good, and moral. It’s time to take a deep breath and and decide who we are.
Thank you, Glenn, for making us think – again.
Frightening. Thanks for the link.
I thoroughly disagree! In almost every example you cite, safety regulations were deliberately ignored or irresponsibly neglected. At Three Mile Island, bored and distracted operators failed to notice the problem in time, at Chernobyl, an ill conceived test was being rushed through by people who were unfamiliar with the test parameters and the equipment, at Bhopal the reason Union Carbide was there to begin with is because it was easier to build there due to lack of regulation than in the US and operators were ignoring maintenance and training to save a few bucks. The same with the BP spill. They knew the blowout preventor they installed didn’t work, they knew they should have been using mud to hold down the pressure of the well but they tried to use seawater instead, again to save a few bucks. As for the New Orleans levee failure, they were warned that those levees were entirely inadequate in the scenario that occurred during Katrina decades ahead of time and they chose to give tax cuts instead of upgrading them. The nuclear crisis in Nihon could have been prevented if they had just raised the emergency generators a few feet, again a decision taken to save money ignoring an altogether foreseeable disaster.
It’s not that we are unable to manage our technology, it’s because the bean counters are unwilling to spend the money needed to manage them safely. Let’s be clear about this.
Simi Valley…………….aye carumba
Because ethical know-how seems fuzzier than technological know-how, the apparent difference is exploited by the self-interested. It’s the old, worn-out fact/value distinction. It was a scientist, Francisco Varela, who wrote a powerful little book, Ethical Know-How.>/a>
If we put our minds and hearts to political/ethical know-how, we could overcome the gap. It is achievable.
On the recent book salon hosted by McKibben I added my experience as an economics forecaster to the mix.
Which is to say, many people have zero ability to look into the future, no matter how strong the evidence is. Along the lines of what SD sez at 3.
So my recommendation to try to convince people about climate change is to tie things they are actually seeing now, like higher food prices owing to droughts & floods, to the larger issue.
correcto….everything on the CHEAP
What Albert Hirschman called the rhetoric of futility is out in full force. What can we do, they ask, if it is not nuclear, than it is coal, or oil or we will be fracking for natural gas. And is true, assuming we want to protect large energy monopolies.
If we let go of that unjustified assumption, or heavens forbid, the idea that we should produce things that demand a great deal of power and allow people to make money delivering that power, a whole new vista opens up. Public energy company were an excellent idea that served us well. The only problem was that we did not take the idea far enough. If they are going to call you socialist anyway (and they are) you might as well adopt the best ideas and forget about the labels.
smart
Margaret, I’m not certain about your distinction. Unless our political/practical management practices guard against and overcome the errors (conscious or unconscious) of the self-interested and immoral, I’d say our management “systems” were failing. I’m not arguing there are not villains who find loopholes in what systems we have. I’m saying we should take account of them before the fact.
My distinction is simple: We are able to manage them but unwilling to spend the money to do so effectively.
I agree with you about this, and for just the reason you cite. If I might just add a little trivial personal anecdotal evidence to the failure of future-seeing, my NCAA tournament bracket is a wreck!
In any case, what’s before the eyes today is powerfully persuasive.
But that’s precisely what I said. It is a matter of will, not ability.
did you get my second email?
I wasn’t disagreeing with the thrust of the post, which is very good, just with the phrasing of the paragraph that I cited.
Good afternoon Glenn. Another tough topic to mull on.
The secret is the real message of Darwin. Adaptation. To attempt to replace or modify the processes of the planet is suicide. Hubris is not user friendly. My own belief is that if we commit more attention to how things are than how we want them to be the answers will become more obvious.
Thinking out loud; As to economics, what systems evolve inevitably represent a culture’s understanding valuation of man. If we are going to change the system we must learn and understand more about ourselves. I think love each other more and come to accept, not judge the nature of man.
I am offended by those “economists” who consider themselves scientists and now even claim to have the ultimate knowledge of the psychology of man, indeed of all things.
A friend and I were speaking of such things this last Friday and made note of the coming and evolution of species and their various place among the other species — recalling the dominance of the dinosaurs — and what it took in adaptation to preserve the dna. Their descendants are bountiful. We call them chickens.
You said, “We are like Grumio, Toymaker assistant in the 1961 film version of Babes in Toyland, driving our toymaking machines to the breaking point” and I just want to point out that Grumio (played by Tommy Kirk) did invent the toymaking machine but it was, in fact, the Toymaker himself (played by Ed Wynn) who actually pushed the machine beyond its limits. I love this movie too much not to set the record straight!
As you say, the distinction between unable and unwilling is critically important. I understand. I should have used “unwilling” in the lede. Would have been clearer that I meant we are unable because we are unwilling. Regardless, thanks for pointing this out for readers.
The roots of the problem are excessive greed and the arrogance of the greedy. So long as we have no ability to force our political leaders to make government do what it has to do – regulate the activities of profit-seekers – we’re screwed.
The relationship between technology and profit over the last few centuries has perhaps driven inventions beyond what human beings are capable of handling.
It ain’t baseball, ergo it’s irrelevant. *g*
Not just tax cuts but the funding was diverted by Bush for the Iraq war. Run poor people out of their homes to change the political makeup of a state while murdering innocents abroad for profit. Satan much?
Exactly. It’s something we’ve talked about a lot here. It’s odd that new insights into the heartmind of human beings gives us a completely different understanding of the human than the old Enlightenment, hyper-rational, isolated, atomic individual — which I’m afraid is the concept of the human behind much of our current socio-political thinking and practice.
What you point out in my view confirms my prejudice that we must first look to understand ourselves and how realistic or adaptive our solutions and expectations are.
Sorry, not trying to be a language Nazi. I’m just very aware of why engineering disasters happen and it’s usually somebody cutting corners. Challenger and Columbia are two more examples. Columbia not so much as Challenger but that foam insulation has been peeling off the tanks since the program began and was never addressed, despite TFOA, (Things Falling Off Aircraft), is a huge no-no in every other instance. I was just trying to point out that the lede didn’t tell the whole story.
Either way you look at it, we are NOT managing these systems adequately, effectively and/or properly.
Citizens continue to live in the la-la land that our beneficient corporations/elites/military/gov’t will “do the right thing,” when time and time again, that simply does not happen. We can never ever trust that such dangerous facilities, as nuclear power plants, will be built with the most effective safety features in place to begin with and then maintained indefinitely. It’s just not happening.
We cannot rely on or trust the corporations or the govt or the military to do what’s right, especially in today’s society where great swaths of the population have been bamboozled into agreeing that, by definition, all taxes are “bad.” If citizens are unwilling to pay for basic infrastructure maintenance, then the result is death – as we saw in Chernobyl, Bhopal, New Orleans, TMI, the Gulf of Mexico and now Japan.
Arguing that somehow all of these things are “safe,” is not only foolish, it’s outrageously irresponsible. But go figure! Citizens continue to argue that we *must* go along with what the elites & the corporations want. Until that changes, this is our situation, sadly.
We are all too dumb for the technological advances we have made and have put ourselves in peril from our own greedy vapid stupidity.
Thanks for the post.
I would add that people’s ability to think abstractly is very low. So policy based arguments, like corn prices rocketed up years ago bc of USG subsidies for ethanol in gasoline causes immediate attacks of MEGO.
My personal example was in the mid-1980s, when the $ had dropped precipitously, which strongly argued for revival of basic industries in U.S. (when stuff was still made here). I had regressions and all sorts of other evidence, and there were long, but measurable lags, so investors had both time to switch their portfolios and strong evidence as to why they should.
My audience was largely MBAs at professional money managers. Was able to convince only one to my knowledge, although more might have switched without letting me know I had had some influence.
Yes I did. Thanks. Give me a few days to ponder.
Thanks for your insights and kind words. We are smart enough, I think, but we’ve built moral dysfunction into our organizations in many ways, not least of which is the equating of wealth or power with truth and moral standing. It is, usually, just the opposite. Power corrupts and all that.
I do not know how much people actually believe that, so much as they do not know how to fight back, and rationalize that inaction with ritualistic invocations of trust. Besides that, polls do not necessary show people have a lot of faith in these institutions. I think if people had a way to make sense of things, and saw a plan for how to respond, that would do the trick.
I agree. It’s not only about our ability to manage our existing technology, though. Just before Obama became president, for example, Evergreen Solar built a state-of-the-art facility in Massachusetts to make low-cost solar wafers without wasting silicon. When Obama became president, he offered them zero in order to help them compete with China and keep their factory in the US. As a result of unfair trade, Evergreen Solar is closing its plant in Devens, Massachusetts this month and has had to build a new one in Wuhan, China. There was no other way for the company and its String Ribbon technology to survive…
Obama lied. Obama lies. And the green jobs get sent overseas.
I failed to mention that I love your metaphor of toys and technology.
As an idea and concept person I have for years agreed with whoever said it (about the Internet).Paraphrasing, Invention is just human curiosity and toy making. We make the toys, then we try to find “practical” purposes for them.
no problem,just wanted to know if ya got it,gmail is strange to me
going outside to see Levi…..KNUT the polar bear died…sad
But with our current political System the Right is pushing us over the cliff with their mantra of NO Regulation or taxes for Corporations or the Rich. The Right wants to saddle all the Tax burden on the Middle Class and the Poor… Sure glad to see the protests in Wisconsin!!
BTW The Asimov series is one of my most favorite SciFi books..
Great post as always Glenn.. And a great good Sunday morning to you Glenn ☺ ☺
Now that just makes me sick. Why do i have to buy from China all my electrics for the bikes i build. They are not of a quality i would like but it’s the best i can find. When we could build much better here. Ahh but nobody wants to pay for those living wages.
Yeah, I got scolded at Daily Kos last night for pointing out that his green policy has so far been to the right of George W Bush. Of course they could offer nothing to refute my opinion but got off into SCOTUS justices if Willard became president and so forth. WTF?
I read the Foundation series twice. The last time in the ’90s when I was traveling quite a bit. Can still remember where I was sitting on planes and airports as I poured through them again.
i don’t think this is true of any of the conservatives i know.
i may change my mind about this tomorrow, or maybe even today…. but i’ve come to think that self-described progressives are just as much part of the problem as self-described conservatives are. i don’t think it’s an either/or kind of thing (we’re right and their wrong — go team!)… there is something, perhaps about our culture, that affects progressives too. a kind of hubris that gives too little regard to the possibility and risk that our judgement is faulty. that we are mistaken.
Perhaps the problem is that humans are too intelligent.
We are an evolutionary experiment. We are great apes with very large brains. These brains have allowed us to rapidly alter the world. Exhibit “A” for our ability to do so might be developing the technology to split the atom.
Unfortunately, the rate of change our large brains allows us to conjure up, far exceeds the glacial pace of change evolution allows for in terms of our essential nature.
The result is great apes with very dangeous toys: a-bombs, nuclear energy plants and such.
I am not sure I agree with this. Yes we can do a much better job. But we must first accept that we cannot undo the laws of nature that are operating on this planet and in this universe.
One such notion is the idiocy that perpetual growth and consumption is the solution to all human problems and strivings. We must begin the turn over to learning how to live on what the earth gives us, not extraction of what was once life, only cannibalism.
You can’t just blame it all on “the Right.” Glenn argued in this post that there is a difference between conservatives and liberals on the issue of whether there is a need to regulate. but other than in their rhetoric, that difference does exist among our political leaders. The sellouts who enable the most irresponsible and greedy among us have thoroughly infested the leadership of both parties.
You make a point. It was the progressive movement at the turn of the 19th-20th centuries who wanted to apply modern “management” practices to political organization, whose faith in “progress” trumped practical steps to act morally. That legacy lives on.
On balance, though, I think today’s progressives, whatever their shortcomings, are more willing to see the need for improved practical and moral intervention. “Third Way” neo-liberals are another story, much more implicated in non-interventionist practices.
yeah, i always enjoy reading glenn’s posts — even when i think i disagree — makes me think AND feel his writing while i read and consider it. jmo, but too much of political writing tries to be one or the other: all heart with no head or all head with no head.
TalkingStick, I’d say your insight proves my point. Clearly, we have the ethical know-how to better manage our relations among ourselves and the earth. We just don’t do it.
The then CEO of Evergreen practically begged Obama administration officials to help them with subsidies or by making trade for resources more fair. He was blown off for nearly two years. He resigned last year without comment. I think the idea of closing the Devens plant and moving the work to China made him sick.
I just reread Prelude to Foundation when Harry first gets to Trantor and gets guided by a Robot(of course we don’t know that at that point) into founding “psychohistory” to shorten the time of darkness as the Empire is falling into total decay… Great book!! Great series. I just wish they would make it into a movie… I keep telling my son that should be one of his projects(he has a degree in Film Production from Chapman’s Dodge School of Film.
Did you get my e-mail? Just thought I would check.
I won’t disagree with that at all. To me they are as you said sellouts to the Rich and could care less about anyone else especially the disadvantage..
Thank You St Ronnie for putting GREED as the driving force of Corporate Amer5ica!
Complacency with the familiar is another problem I see. People are afraid of the most stupid shit while things they should fear churn along in the background. People are terrified about the Large Hadron Collider but they aren’t fussed at all about the flu. M’eh, it’s just the flu after all. It’s similar to people cowering in fear when somebody in a Hijab boards an airplane but if some white redneck with rebel flags tatooed all over his body and a gun rack starts hanging out in front of a reproductive services clinic, people wo’;t even remember him well enough to describe him to the police.
If everyone will excuse my repetition…while studying with George Lakoff I joked that a great premise for a science fiction novel would be a principle that the survival of sentient life on a planet depends upon whether a true understanding of life precedes that life’s technological ability to destroy itself. We are, er, not on the good side of that one!
The sad truth of the levee failure is this:
Bush took office, then gave tax breaks to big corporations and his rich friends. to offset the financial gap, he cut the ACOE budget three times over the next three years. google SELA (Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project)
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0831-04.htm
This project was begin in 1995 when a flood broke the levees. This project’s object was to inspect and rebuild all of the levee system. Bush’s budget cut cut the funding for the SELA project to as little as one fourth, thereby effectively stopping the levee repairs. And the levees broke during Katrina. Bush is squarely to blame.
Sorry O/T please read my response to you in this thread. :)
http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/03/18/supermajority-of-senators-seek-grand-bargain-on-taxes-and-entitlements/
I did! I haven’t written back yet though cause I’m considering. Thanks though. :)
Our consumer advertising models depend and rely on envy, the kind of envy that both covets and wants coveting by others. Consume enough of it and you wallow in greed and bitter sorrow.
Free market capitalism cannot manage rapidly evolving technological societies. We make technological mistakes but cannot change course because too many are invested in the status quo. It is impossible to make sense of anything without seeing the species as driven insane by inferiority. (a negative perception of human nature)
We use collective thinking like class structure to believe things which obviously aren’t true (i.e. rich people are smarter than poor people) the superior-inferior relationship satisfies both. It feeds the grandiosity of one at the same time it reassures the other that smart men are in charge. The Ayn Randian entrepreneurs represent the worst, not the best, of us.
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Glenn W. Smith:
“Egalitarian or popular democracy is a profoundly creative approach to political, social and economic organization.”
AhMEN, Brother Smith, another wonderful sermon for an all too dark and forboding Sunday. Though I am loath to offer anything to your testiments to life on this planet, I would like to offer this description of democracy: Democracy, true democracy, one person one vote with everyone voting, this is the most revolutionary idea in the history of man.
I have been arguin’ since the 1970′s when all that was left of the left both in academia and in the street was the mildewing hulk of Stalinism or the cult-like ecstasy of Maoism, that true democracy defined what the human struggle has been all about at least since the rise of Rome. This of course ran me into trouble with the would-be revolutionaries and should be organizers as well as the vested conservatives who owed allegiance to the industrial oligarchs.
The young Maoists and Stalinists were quite comfortable in their ideological kevlar vests until they ran into folks like the Wobblies with their armor-piercing simplisity and wrestled with P.J. Proudon in the library when they wreren’t sleepin’ there. I would argue that the enlightenment idea of representative democracy that came to be embodied in the Constitution of the United States, was an attempt to provide a mechanism for advancing the struggle for pure democracy into generations going forward. Of course that advancement has been stalled and, I would argue, set back by the struggle over slavery and the argument that constitutional government and representative democracy was a sheild against the chaos of pure democracy.
We are now poised on the end of modern history with the end of oil capitalism and it’s 20th century empire. The popular democratic uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen, Iraq and even Iran represent the future in this the end of our terrible experiment in world domination. Whether or not this popular democratic movement succeeds in the short run to inspire and rekindle the American imagination of progressive change, it does signal the final contradiction of capitalism as we know it.
Long live the idea of democracy and the city of Madison, Wisconsin.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS WAR BELONGS TO US!!
Thanks popeye. Ummm, rather than putting it out here, why don’t we wait till Suz comes back around and she can forward it on to you? Cool beans? Thanks again.
Rapidly? Considering what our brains are capable of, it’s surprising that so little changed technologically for hundreds of thousands of years. Then, all of a sudden, wham! Only in the last couple of hundred years has technological change been rapid. Too rapid, probably…
TRUTH!!
We appear to share similar personal histories, at least as regards our relationships to yesterday’s ideologues. Thanks, as always, Norske, for weighing in.
There is a pathological cognitive disorder at work in most all of these issues. Power brokers in both private and public structures engage in false perceptions and false beliefs, leading to maladaptive courses of action. Thus gay marriage is viewed as a threat to be fought against. Marijuana is viewed as more dangerous than alcohol and is treated as a punishable offense. Mexicans, Moslems, and others are marginalized and feared, regardless of any realistic actions. Other perceptions validate and legitimize clearly harmful entities such as unregulated derivative markets and predatory commodity speculations. The few get rich, the rest get screwed. Being able to do better, but just not doing it, is why people end up in rehab.
Ditto what nahant said @ 64. They do represent well what free market capitalism is capable of, though, and their nonsense reminds us that the capitalist system is unworkable without aggressive regulation.
I would make a distinction between situations such as Chernobyl, and our problems with global-warming/deforestation/overfishing.
I’m not sure that all our problems with global warming come from somebody ignoring a warning label.
Well said.
Kewl beans!
the relevance is that the GOP pattern is the same as always: lie to the voters, take office, give tax breaks to the rich and big business, cut government budgets, then dump the pain and debt on the middle and lower classes.
Incoming Twain!
Do we know any mutual emailers here popeye?
I agree.
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
Yes. I am just trying to advance the point that our hubris and egocentric perspective is the cause of many of the problems. That we must learn to live in concert with the laws of nature, not attempt to undo them.
Our Constitution is I think a magnificent, and on whole successful, attempt to create a system of governance that allows for the frailties of human nature and can operate well enough with them.
I am (shamefully) for the first time into a study of Rand the person. In the Burns biography the comment is made that for an individual, a philosophy is developed to obscure or compensate for painful or confusing facts of that person’s life. In Rand’s case it seems to have been love.
There are differences, of course, depending on how fine-grained you get with any cited or similar examples. As regards the climate crisis, it may be we didn’t have enough warning labels — or outright prohibitions on use etc — not that we ignored existing warning labels.
Also, I just want to restate something. The ignoring and lack of enforcement of existing safety standards is simply another failure of political will. The emphasis is on the full application of ethical know-how. It is a matter of will, not ability. In fact, that’s the theme of the piece.
Excellently put. It’s a perfect analogy and like cancer, it must be excised with extreme prejudice.
Perfect analogy.
I haven’t read that biography, but that is an intriguing concept you cite. William James saw philosophy not as consolation, but as an outgrowth of one’s nature, values, experiences. In other words, philosophy is personal.
Is it the lack of political will or the much more active deliberate refusal to do so? Not that it really makes a difference when the result is the same.
Regarding the main diary. . . .
It is interesting that conservatives don’t seem to be concerned with having humans mess around with the natural systems which are part of our bio-sphere.
Citizen margaret:
You are, of course, correct if you are arguing that technology CAN be regulated in it’s applications to allow for safe use at least in the short run…however, informed, democratic decision making on what technologies will be applied and how they will be managed, paid for and ultimately changed requires an economy regulated by an extended and active democracy and in order to get to that point we need to rediscover the whole IDEA of democracy.
Not to my knowledge.
Spot on as usual. I couldn’t agree more. Because the corporates aren’t going to make decisions based on what the right thing to do it, they make decisions based solely on their bottom lines. That has to once again become subordinate to the public good.
That is what happened strating with ST Ronnie!! Then BushCo decimated the ranks of decent regulators and installed political cronies to look the other way and what I find galling is BO seems to have kept most of them in place!!
We’ll wait for Suz if not! :)
Okay will do.
I wish I could take credit for the analogy, but that was a quote I’d heard elsewhere.
I believe that the line was originally said by Edward Abbey.
i used to think that (and wish i still could). what led me to consider changing my world view were the health care debates (which weren’t really about health care and which really weren’t debates). they are still are my prime example of progressives not just eschewing the moral argument (what you warned progressives not to do) but also demonizing those who did. a neoliberal policy and a neoliberal marketing campaign was sold by progressives and called a progressive policy.
i had an easier time talking with conservatives about the morality of the issue than i did political progressives.
….. but that is, apparently, yesterday’s news.
on another issue, can you give me advice about how to talk about economics to progressives? (i think most of the economics reporting by progressives is unknowingly based on neoliberal premises that are incorrect and, because of the lives at stake, it’s immoral not to at least consider the possibility they are incorrect. but i apparently suck at figuring out how to say/write that in a way that can be heard — even to explain why i’m wrong.)
jmo, but i think third possibility: that we humans sometimes convince ourselves that we are doing right when we are not.
Citizen selise:
I think I can feel what’s inside your words, Citizen selise, and I worry that maybe you are at the point in your struggle that you accept the labels attached to some political ideas (progressive-public healthcare) and when those ideas fail politically, maybe you blame the failure on those who advanced the ideas rather than the forces that denied their application. In a real democracy, the idea of which we progressives try to live every day, we must be careful not to blame our brothers and sisters for the political setbacks to a power none of us can equal but all of us are fighting.
Hey Peg you be able to share your addy by putting it a fromat that can’t just be copied and pasted such as one of mine: Nahanter at the googl mail stop.. enough to get it through but almost impossible for a net crawler from recognizing it as an addy.. Just saying… Of course Suz will never be up at this side of noon PDT zone… ☺ ☺ I know Suz.. ☺
I agree. They seem to be looking for a way to operate within the neoliberal framework by tweaking neoliberal economic polices to work for all, instead of only the capitalist class. Not gonna happen. Neoliberal policies were designed to exclude the working and middle classes, to bestow aristocratic power to the capitalists.
On your first point, I can’t really argue. Entirely possible I’m inventing phantom progressives to believe in. Well, at least I know the values are true of me and you!
On your question, I try to begin at the beginning and talk about how much of modern economics was built on a faulty understanding of human being. No foolin’. Rational actors and choice theory are thoroughly discredited. So, I try first to connect with others on this new understanding of human intersubjectity, empathy, the role of the emotion/reason complex in decision-making.
It’s easier to connect on this value level and them move to specifics of economic policies etc.
The differences are really only at the margins. You start (or even suggest) messing with their money and strivings to better others they are all alike.
Yep It’s all personal.
Pictorial update of the riots in Madison!
I think we know what to do, but the wealthy conservatives among us seem to have just decided there is more profits to be made by sacking society, the economy, and the environment. They must envy Russian Oligarchs, and believe the US is not worth saving.
“Sacking” is just the right word. Thanks.
not at all. there is no shame or blame for trying and failing.
I take a different view of the problem. . . .
It is not that we have/use cars, or keep livestock (which due to methane emissions are also a big problem), it is that we have such a vast population of humans who have cars and livestock.
If there were 100,000 humans on the planet, we could all drive SUVs, and have a bunch of cattle, and get our power from coal, without any problems. When you get billions of humans, suddenly people have to start being very careful about environmental impact.
With a world population projected to hit 7 billion in June 2012, the environmental foot print of each person has to be pretty small, I’d suggest that we’d be better off with less people, and I’d suggest moving in that direction, as much as possible.
And there are even some real world examples which we can look to for inspiration:
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Tikopia
exactly! it’s very tempting to do…. (not excluding myself from this)… but i completely agree with you, “Not gonna happen.”
well, i hope of me (aspirational anyway).
but i do think obama was phantom progressive. we seem to have a powerful need for people to believe in.
…..
thank you very much for the advice.
i will have to ponder for a while. for most people what i have to say is equivalent to the difference between the earth is flat or the earth is more like a globe. it upends world views. here’s two examples to give you an idea of what i mean: 1) bank loans create deposits, banks don’t create loans from deposits. 2) the fed gov must spend in order to collect taxes, not tax in order to spend. crazy stuff like that — but i don’t think we can understand what our policy options are, regardless of our values, without a reality based understanding of how the basics of our monetary system work. been a very tough nut to crack.
we’re all human. :)
thank you!
Yeah, I’ve been guilty of it meself but the more one learns about the dynamics of neoliberalism, which many simply refuse to do, the more I see that the policies are specifically designed to benefit one class of persons the more I see that a total disavowal of neoliberal policies is the only way we’re going to get out of this mess.
It is a tough nut. Not least because some terms like “government spending” and “taxes” become symbols dissociated from real meaning in context. So, you try to explain how federal spending fuels an economy and allows for tax revenue growth, you get an “all government spending is bad” response.
It’s not thoughtful, but it’s all too real and human. We all do it — make category mistakes, mistake the map for the territory, the symbol for the real — in various parts of our lives.
My suggestion (really borrowed from Lakoff) is to connect on the value/emotion level first then move to policy specifics, which may be so symbol-freighted you can get no conversation going at all unless you begin somewhere else.
Example (entirely fictional, no endorsement of Obama’s strategy or position intended): If you want to talk about health care, you have to start at the personal, the need for care and health. You wouldn’t want to start the conversation with Obama. The latter would so polarize things no conversation on the merits would begin.
That’s how I approach folks, I start off using them as the object of what policy does for/to them. Sometimes you can see the light come on.
amen!
i just want to have a reality based discussion. even with people who have different values. policies can wait…
in fact, i’d argue that policies have to wait. there’s no way to have a conversation — even with progressives who share the same values — about policy if we’re fundamentally in error about basic economic realities.
for the record, i think we progressives are in fundamental error about the basics. that’s one of the reasons we’re getting creamed… we are arguing our values, but from a neoliberal understanding of basic economic premises. and that furthers the neoliberal agenda, even if it’s the last thing we want to do.
just to use your comment as an example, i’m pretty sure that the economic role of federal taxation does not include generating revenue. can we have a discussion about that????? (rhetorical question).
i think the economic ideas, that i want to share, would seriously upend your world view too. just as an example…. what could i say, or how could i say it, so that you would be inclined to engage in a discussion — instead of either assuming we share the same understanding or that i am bat-shit-crazy before hearing me out)?
i think it’s really hard.
been pondering your earlier comment though… the one shared value(s) i see with potential is honesty, good faith and trustworthiness. if we are possibly mistaken about something, honesty requires we give good faith consideration to alternatives otherwise we will not be worthy of the trust others have in us. f
ok. now you see why i suck at this. that was a lousy way to say it. will ponder some more……. thank you for the advice. i will try to see what i can do to make it work for me….
p.s.
government spendingpublic spendingAin’t it the truth!
Bingo!
Right now we manage 21st century technology with 19th century rules. Its kinda like taking a turn of the 20th century horsetrack and running a NASCAR race on it; Disaster is inevitable.
thanks talkingstick!
suggestions on how best to engage people ? progressives, conservatives and the apolitical — anyone and everyone — we’re all humans and we’re all co-citizens of this world we share.
We are playing with fire when it comes to nuclear technology. Early on, scientists were unaware of the long term effects (and defects) from radiation exposure and the vulnerability of critical systems to unpredictable forces and human failings. That is no longer an excuse. Even now, we don’t know to what extent the development and use of nuclear reactors and bombs will have damaged our planet and all life on it, in the long run (the damage continues). It’s madness to continue this, and yet many people ignore all the evidence. Part of this madness is the demand by defense contractors for nuclear material to continue upgrading our nuclear arsenal, and the use of spent fuel in conventional bombs (Iraq).
I think it’s mainly MALES who have this lust for power and control that drives them to build and play with dangerous toys. That is why we desperately need more women in decision-making positions. That may be our only hope for the survival of humanity. (I happen to be a male.)
There are many other technologies that are either harmful or potentially dangerous. As with nuclear power, often only long term evidence will reveal this. So, we need to be more careful about everything we intend to use on a large scale, from food additives (incl. irradiation and genetic engineering) to medicines to cell phones.
The point that has been made here about examining ourselves and balancing our motivation for making new toys with an awareness of our limitations, makes me question all of my preconceptions about the seemingly inevitable push of civilization toward technological development, while we lack the wisdom to recognize the potential downside: self destruction.
Re: DUDES in toyland, women making decisions — I’m aware of the argument that gender doesn’t explain intelligence; witness Palin, Bachmann, Angle, O’Donnell, Whitman, Fiorina, et al femmes fatales. Nevertheless, polls show that far fewer women trust the nuclear power industry.
We really need to get a celebrity media savvy economist who will clarify the neo liberal system and present the rational alternatives. I think we likely must begin with simple education. I have been trying to push this as part of our local Democratic party program.
Science was aware some years before the development of the bombs of most of the worst of the short and long term effects of irradiation, in particular its carcinogenic effects. And the long half lives of the isotopes were well known. We have certainly learned more from the effects on the people we bombed and later those we intentionally did dose ranging on in the fifties. By the sixties the American scientific community was boycotting scientists from the Soviet Union and PRC because of their denial.
The power people went ahead anyway.
i was thinking more along the lines of what i could do (negative on the celebrity, media savvy and i’m no economist)…. there are some economist/financial people who are starting to get some msm traction.
i can’t get dday or jon here to bite…. that’s more the level of my aspirations.