
Tomahawk Launch, photo credited to http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Sep1996/960903-N-8202E-001.html via Wikipedia
Reports are pouring in that the US has begun operations against Gadaffi forces in Libya. The US is firing Tomahawk missiles and explosions have been heard in Tripoli but details cannot be confirmed. President Obama has issued a statement saying that “Today I authorized a limited military action in Libya… We cannot stand idly by…”
ABC News reports:
U.S. military officials have confirmed the first American tomahawk cruise missiles have been fired at targets inside Libya from ships in the Mediterranean Sea.
The move is the first direct U.S. involvement in the international operation mobilizing to stop Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi’s attacks on opposition strongholds and enforce a U.N.-backed no-fly zone.
Pentagon officials said there were 11 U.S. ships stationed in the Mediterranean Sea, including three submarines and two destroyers capable of firing cruise missiles, and several amphibious ships and supply ships.
The first strikes in what is being called “Operation Odyssey Dawn” were expected to target air defense missile sites around Tripoli, Misratah, and Surt, but no areas east of that or near Benghazi, officials said.
In a Pentagon briefing going on now, we were told that Cruise missiles were fired from US and UK ships hitting military targets near the coast and that “This is just the first phase of what will likely be a multiphased operation.”
Update from Pentagon briefing: They are providing very little information, will not discuss next actions or precise targets but the US action followed the French. Over twenty targets were hit.
CNN reporting the strikes hit near Tripoli and Misratah.
Update: The BBC reports:
2031: A US military chief says a total of 110 Tomahawk missiles have been launched against Libyan sites. He said the Coalition operation has been named Odyssey Dawn.
Update: In comments, 4cdave links to the Navy for the following:
Navy
Tomahawk® Cruise Missile
Unit Cost: Approximately $569,000 (FY99 $).Austerity.
Update: Al Jazeera has more from the briefing by Vice Admiral William Gortney, the Director of the US Joint Staff:
He said that US military aircraft were not currently in Libyan air space in this phase of operations, and that the US was using its “unique capabilities to shape the battlespace” before handing over command of operations to other coalition leaders.
Currently, officers with coalition partners are aboard the USS Mount Whitney, from where military operations are being commanded.
He also said that further action will depend on a bomb damage assessment, adding that this could not be done using US Reaper or Predator drones, as they were not being deployed. He anticipated that this would take 6-12 hours.
Update: While Obama repeated in his statement that no US ground forces will be used in Libya, we read the following:
Three locally based ships will deploy early and head to the Mediterranean Sea next week in case they are needed for response to the crisis in Libya.
The amphibious assault ship Bataan, amphibious transport dock ship Mesa Verde and the dock landing ship Whidbey Island will depart March 23, the Navy announced today.




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We will go from “limited” military intervention to full-scale war the instant Libya attacks a US Navy ship in retaliation.
Has Fisk’s Thursday article been noted here yet?
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-first-it-was-saddam-then-gaddafi-now-theres-a-vacancy-for-the-wests-favourite-crackpot-tyrant-2246415.html
Similar issues to those raised on Democracy Now by the Calif. woman professor yesterday.
I’m sorry, did I miss the part where this was approved by Congress?
When did Congress authorize this?
Did I miss the part where congress voted to authorize this military action?
If there was advice and consent by the Senate, I did not hear about it. Has President Obama explicitly addressed the Constitutional issues, I ask rhetorically.
“The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.” -Candidate Obama
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/18/libya/index.html
US and Allies have fired 110 missiles at 20 targets per the Twitter machine.
As long as our country maintains a ready-to-use military Congress will never have any say in war. It’s not the US Military, it’s become the President’s Military. And ever since Bush started the practice of leaving the costs off the books it’s become even more so by further reducing Congress’ role.
Another stupid resource war begins. Oilbomber begins where the Smirking Chimp left off.
Each US missile is a little tiny papercut to the Constitution
Come on, we know Congress approves all wars. Goooo TEAM! There MCDonnell
stockbribes will go up in value.Navy
Tomahawk® Cruise Missile
Unit Cost: Approximately $569,000 (FY99 $).
Austerity.
Oh good, more unauthorized war-making. Uncle Sam is like a compulsive gambler. He’ll never pass over any action. It’s just not in his nature.
We have a Constitution? I had forgotten that.
Is everyone going to breakout their America flags, attach them to their cars and trucks and those “I support the troops” magnets?
@steveweinstein
Oh picture of missile on MSNBC. Raytheon product placement proudly displayed. Buy on NYSE Monday?
Nice catch!
I support Tomahawk Missles magnets? or I support McDonnell Douglas/Raytheon?
(this phase)
As O said, “War is Peace”.
@BorowitzReport
Am i the only one who thinks Odyssey Dawn sounds like a stripper name?
That’s $110M the Regressives can support adding to the deficit while ignoring the plight of tens of millions of Americans.
Thanks – just added your info as an update to the post.
Number of innocents slaughtered in Libya will now be multiplied by 1000 or more.
Al Jazeera blog
The timing of this attack was obviously calculated to use the tournament as a distraction. This new war won’t even be the lead story once the sweet sixteen are announced.
The war porn excitement of the news media is disgusting, even NPR is besotted with it.
One of the 2 destroyers is the USS Barry.
/gag
When I survey just how many “Progressives” support the “good war” of the moment, I actually become nauseous. Luckily I’ve long since broken with Democrats and “Progressives”.
“Good war” today, lowered threshold for military action tomorrow; that war may be one you’d like to “pull back” once you see it.
Spent in mere minutes.
I ordered one of those little flags that clip onto the window for my truck the other day. It’s a red flag, though.
But they’ll die for a good cause now that the enemies of Gaddafi are on the job.
The ultimate irony is that no one will be happy with the President’s role here. This string shows how the most of FDL will react – the other side will be unhappy because it took so long and required the French, god forbid, to lead the military action.
I wondered about that, thanks.
So 110*569,000 = $62,590,000.00
Force Projection™ is expensive!
And here’s my pre-buttles to the pro-war crowd:
“Isolationist!” – I’ll wear that label just fine, better than “murderer.”
“Stand Idly By And Allow…” – not a leg to stand on as this are the same people who are standing idly by and allowing Yemeni and Bahraini atrocities.
Stop It All Now!
And you’ll never see it reported since the reason for bombing is to save innocents.
The well-oiled oil-supply protection machine kicks into high gear.
Cue the mainstream media’s fawning glorification of war.
I want to know how many kids they killed or seriously injured.
Ultimately, these wars will bankrupt the country. It’s inevitable.
Hey, at least we know one thing Barry Cocaine is good at.
Must distract US populace from dangers of Older Nuclear power plants. Just a small war to do that.
Guess we now know what excuse they’ll gut SS and Medicare for.
And Gaza. Another one that they stood by and let happen (after enabling and financing it, kind of like Libya…).
Book Salon up with David Sirota’s Back to Our Future: How the 1980s Explain the World We Live in Now–Our Culture, Our Politics, Our Everything hosted by Teddy Partridge
More from Al Jazeera:
Why do you call him Barry Cocaine? Just curious.
So let us tally.
Afghanistan-active war, 10′s of thousands of US troops.
Iraq-War winding down, active occupation, tens of thousands of US troops.
Libya-Brand new war, troop amounts to be determined.
Pakistan-Drone war, CIA covert war.
Yemen-Drone war, military assistance with unknown amount of US participation.
Mexico-Drone activity.
Seems like we need one more war to cleanse the palate.
Iran anyone?
Let’s invade Canada. U.S. needs more lebensraum.
Btw, today also happens to be the 8th anniversary of ‘Shock and Awe’ in Iraq…! 8-(
Can’t. All those Canadians would vote for Democrats.
He supposedly did lots of coke in college. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/BothSidesAllSides/story?id=2773754&page=1
Just updated with the following:
http://hamptonroads.com/2011/03/bataan-group-leave-early-med-due-libyan-crisis
You’re too late. It already has bankrupted the country. We are about 22 years overdue for a major downsizing of our national security institutions, designed 64 years ago for a Cold War with the Soviet Union.
Not to mention distract from unemployment.
The whole country is a fucking mess. Seriously. On all fronts. Just gotta protect what you have and hope for the best. This gov’t is rogue, man. They fuck us by draining our hard earned salaries, refuse to prosecute endemic corruption and then get us into immoral wars, with no exit plan. Insanity. Bush or Obama. Take your pick. Losers. Epic fail.
The transport dock ship and dock landing ship could be used to deliver anything – humanitarian aid, war materiel, transport or rebel troops, or transport of allied troops.
This is an action that has ambiguous implications, depending one’s point of view of US intentions. Which means that we will have to wait and see how these ships are used in a couple of weeks, if they are used at all.
The Bataan has been used in many different ways. There were allegations that it was used as a prison ship in Iraq. On the other side of the equation is its belated use in Katrina relief:
Not after they have all U.S. voting machines.
The money to mfr, deploy, & fire those missiles has already been spent. The WHOLE POINT is to REPLACE them. Payload is not a metaphor.
How many burned brown babies will sate The unitary executive, Bogus barry’s bloodlust ?
Hope the idiots that support murder of innocents, come to regret killing humans, sleep tight tonight.
That was ,at least, one hell of a debate in congress over barry’s mass murder.
Think of each cruse missiles funded by about 20 of those greedy teacher’s salaries.
The president just told me that he’s going to ‘keep the American people completely informed’ and ‘Congressional leaders fully briefed.’ No mention from the constitutional scholar of actually asking Congress for a declaration of war; I don’t see how either AUMF from the Bush era covers this new War On Muslims.
From the Boston Globe…
Activists rally in DC to mark Iraq War anniversary…
From Jane’s Twitter feed…
Can you prove he didn’t do a couple of rails as he watched the missiles fly ?
Did he ever rehab for his admitted habit ?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there US medical students in Grenada who are in mortal danger?
LOL!
I suspect the legal basis for American military action comes from treaties under which we are members of the U.N., hence no further Congressional action required.
Multiple French military and civilian sources say within the last 20 minutes they have no plane downed, all dispatched have returned to base.
Le Monde has a feed at:
http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2011/03/19/suvez-la-situation-en-libye-en-direct_1495503_3212.html#ens_id=1481986
I think they don’t even have that excuse, as they got U.S. citizens out before the bombing began.
Hopey is revealed as Lieberman’s butler.
He figures that’s gonna save him next election, what with the NYT, WaPo, WSJ, et al leghumpting his war(s)
He has as much chance as Al Gore.
The code name they’ve assigned, “Odyssey Dawn”, is rather disquieting. Is this really the beginning of “A prolonged journey, filled with difficulty”? Has anyone defined the goals to be achieved or what the exit strategy might be? Are we supporting a democracy craving populace suppressed by tyranny or are we picking sides in a tribal war?
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Tribal+system+holds+balance+power+Libya/4336084/story.html
Torture a man, torture a country who’s going to stop him ?
This is one sick pup as per his unrestrained poping off cruise missiles against our 10 kids or 30 elders shows.
It’s a psycho-sexual treat will we never feel, not that you or I would want to.
The constitution makes no sense if you take out federalism. Lincoln preserved the union but destroyed federalism. We can all pretend that the constitution will stretch to cover the Fed, the war on drugs, the surveillance state, citizens united and the unitary executive. But it’s only pretending. If we would be a nation of laws again we will need a Second Republic and a new constitution.
Agreed
Your comment may be misplaced, unless you hope that a Bengazi-based pilot flying one of the two insurgent-operated planes was shot down by his own forces by mistate is murdered. In any case, this pilot was reported to not have survived ejection at low altitude. (AJE) The ejection was caught on video, and by my guess, the altitude was too low for a chute to open.
(Quoting McLuhan) So, what you’re saying is that my entire fallacy is wrong.
AJE reporting that French deny report of missing aircraft.
Hadn’t heard that one before. It’s a goody.
And that will show what?
Oh, grandma, what clean hands you have! Build that internet all by yourself did you? Raise all that food in your own backyard did you?
Just got back to the thread. I simply asked a question. I had never heard that Obama was a cocaine user. Don’t get so bent out of shape over a question.
Are you happy ?
Wasn’t it neat he couldn’t eject ?
Did you see him go splat defending his country against the next crusade invasion ?
1) Thanks for the sanity about our actions via UN protocols.
2) Yeah, ‘LIBYAN STATE TV reports’ is about as reliable as Pravda was in the 70′s.
Jet shot down was one of Ghadaffi’s from all other reports I’ve read earlier today . . . no linky’s but easily googled up.
The U.S. must be running out of countries to attack, esp Muslim ones. Had to pick Libya for a do-over.
That’s very interesting and scholarly . . .
Must admit I’ve not thought of our problems in that manner.
I’m stuck on the whole corporate owned fascist lens of interpretation.
Thanks, very interesting lens you use in this regard . . .
No, watching this fighting did not make me happy. Sorry, but I can’t follow your reasoning. Taking ten.
Ok, Pups, raise hands those of you who never used drugs whether in college or not.
As to our past, well, it’s the past. We’ve all gone on to jobs, families, and more since.
Thanks for calling the comment for what it was, a misnomer, inaccurate, and inappropriate.
Unlike Bush Jr.’s history, which is livid and long in regards to abuses of all kninds.
To lump in Obama, no matter how much any one person despises his fascism, with a Bushie like drug characterization is just plain ignorant,
;-)
N I’m no Obama supporter, by any means.
I get real bent out of shape when this country starts killing humans in my name, with my tax dollars.
No offense meant to you personally.
thank you siun for the report. depressing as hell, but important to know.
How shameful today that it takes a Republican to say what Democrats should be saying:
“Sen. Richard Lugar (R-IN) who said in Thursday morning’s hearing with Burns that any military intervention in Libya should require a formal declaration of war by the U.S. Congress.
Lugar also opposes military intervention in Libya on the grounds that the nation can’t afford it at a time of deep fiscal debt and called on Obama to explain why attacking Libya is in America’s national interest. The humanitarian argument just isn’t enough, he said.
“We would not like to stand by and see people being shot, but the same argument could be made in Bahrain at present and perhaps in Yemen, so if you have a civil war it’s very likely people are going to be out for each other,”"
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/17/inside_classified_hill_briefing_administration_spells_out_war_plan_for_libya
This is Obama’s new stimulus package. He could not get more for the USA, but he can get more by bombing another country. This is the one stimulus plan that blue dogs and Rethugs can agree on.
Right now, the cruise missiles. Tomorrow, the amphibious ships suggest troop/SEAL/Xe deployment.
Constitutionally, I think a soldier could make a case for a lawsuit against Libyan deployment. However, the MIC would just bribe enough people to let the battle conclude.
Obama is turning into a bigger disaster as each day grows.
Me too. It’s revolting, sickening, nauseating. Makes me want to scream.
And who the hell are these rebels whose side we have taken? How did they become an armed force overnight if they really are a bunch of peace-loving democratarians? And the question we really should be asking — is this a dry run for Iran?
tjbs, I share your anger at US foreign policy and behavior. However this comment on contains two fallacies. One, that it possible to prove the negative in this case, and, two, that receiving drug “rehab” prevents future drug use/abuse.
So has Lugar called for an arms embargo on Yemen & Bahrain? And where was this asshole on Iraq & Afganistan? I call Bullshit!
For some discussion on this see Fisk linked at 2.
The whole Jasmine thing looked real kewl up until Libya and Bharain . . . when the rebels and protesters begin to be slaughtered.
I was VERY delighted that USA took a hands off (at least as we are told USA did) approach and let it flow.
As Ghadaffi began to war violently against The Jasmine, I wished for someone or something to intervene.
And I’m STILL livid and disgusted we let Saudi’s do Bharain as they did.
We should have intervened, played and pulled some cards behind the scenes in Bharain . . . I’m sure we have that kind of leverage on Saudi kings and princes despite their present ownership of the oil we must have (let’s not forget, if USA wants that oil, House Of Saud coiuld be taken down in a blink, see Iran/Mossedegh, etc.).
But so far, I’m in full support of taking out Ghadaffi and empowering the ‘rebels’.
What happens AFTER the change is of course, is the key . . . Iraq has proven to be a complete abuse and failure of all things USA (as most Pups called it long ago), and AFGHAN is a failure in action.
But I support UN Resolution for No Fly in defense of the ‘rebels’ and hope Jasmine will continue to flower in Libya, without US heavy hands turning on the ‘rebels’ once Ghadaffi is gone . . . n that horse ain’t left the barn yet.
Go Jasmine.
Yah! war porn. Your right puppethead, npr is rubbing their nose in this shit just like the rest of em’. I still listen however, more for cadence than content.
This reply is only directed at your questions about the rebels being armed. From all news accounts I’ve read it started as peaceful protests met with violence then some Army units defected and military bases were also over run by the rebels, hence how they acquired arms. Lots of news sites can be checked.
Right. We can’t afford teachers and schools, but cruise missiles – no problem.
1) Iran don’t need a dry run. That’s all been gamed out for decades.
2) USA nor anyone else will be doing Iran, that’s just insane. USA won’t even let the Israeli’s do Iran.
The blowback from anyone doing Iran would lead to world war and loosed nukes, that’s been pretty common knowledge for a decade or more amongst the most learned and experienced people of the planet. SO it’s insane to bring it up, especially in respect to Libya.
If you don’t know who the rebels are, who their leaders are, how they are armed then you have not done yer homework. That info is available thru google and many internationally focused websites and blogs.
So, I pretty much disagree with you on every point. Hope I’ve done it in a cordial manner so as to not offend too much . . .
“USA won’t even let the Israeli’s do Iran” I get the impression it’s Israel that tells us what to do.imo
People who “buy” the “Just War” theory for Libya have to own it for Irak and Afghanistan too.
Can’t be selective and be consistent.
To some extent, they wield huge sway over US policies, that benefit corporate fascist needs (which includes our elected offals).
However, in regards to them corproate fascist needs, it all goes up in mushroom clouds if Israel launches on Iran . . . so in that regard, they do NOT control US policy.
It would be foolhardy for even the corporate overlords to allow Iran to be done.
Not. Gonna. Happen.
Hoss, love ya like family, but, one size don’t fit all . . . n ‘ll ask one more time, would your moral imperative allow for the slaughter of the ‘rebels’ by Ghadaffi? WIth the world standing by to do nothing?
N PLEASE consider how I feel about USA and corprorate fascism, war and more as I’ve expressed for more n a few years in this forum . . . I and my position are not the enemy of your position, not by any means.
People who “buy” the “Just War” theory for Libya also have to state why the same actions aren’t taken in Palestine, Ivory Coast, Bahrain and Yemen to name a few, if they want to be consistent.
What is O’s exit strategy?
Pre-answered at #35 as I knew this would come up.
lol. Funny because it’s true
GregB March 19th, 2011 at 2:01 pm SAID,
Iran anyone?
Iran IS between Iraq and Afganistan. I have often wondered if there was a plan for this to happen. Troops in Afganistan move west and troops in Iraq move east and take out Iran.
It could happen.
Now that the big militaries have stuck their noses in, the number of innocents slaughtered will be thousands of times greater than they otherwise would have been.
If you don’t mean booze, than that’s me. And I haven’t even had so much as a beer in months
“Can’t be selective and be consistent.” Implies one is incapable of making distinctions and engaging in critical thinking. Out of curiousity, would you call WWII a “just war” or is there no such thing? Which is an opinion I can respect.
Larue, again, we have no business bombing another country(Muslim or other)…! 8-(
There are two sides to that story. Don’t want to divert the thread into them.
IMO, the only just war is responding when your country is attacked by another country.
The US stayed out (nominally and fully, although there was previous behind-the-scenes support) of WWII until attacked. IMO only a response to an attack is a valid reason to make war.
And the first war strike is illegal, regardless of who does it.
*pre-clink* Whatcha drinking?
Agreed that it won’t happen, just thinking Israel knows it’s a no win, not cause we won’t let em.Israel seems clear they’ll attack anyone if they feel threatened enough, consequences be damned.imo
Yer labeling my support for Libya effort with a broad brush, n given my positions for antiwar as you know, I think I deserve a bit more consideration.
But, I will politely disagree for all the reasons I’ve stated, and I will always respect your positions . . . likewise with Siun and Pups . . .
CT@109, it’s UN sanctified. Do you support the UN? I do. In almost all cases, almost. But certainly in this one
Crap, even my old lady is cheesin on me . . . she’s draggin my ass to the gym that’s only 50 yards away in our complex . . . what have I done to anger the gods n goddesses . . .
;-)
Best to all . . .
Hmmm. Haven’t started yet tonight. Guess, I’ll make it a scotch, thanks.
Even that criterion is tricky bc it is so easy to provoke someone into attacking you.
Also, conduct of war should be factored in. U.S. & U.K. wanton bombing of civilians in WWII for no military reason whatsoever was certainly not just.
Here’s a thing to chew on; if my total pacifism is wrong, less of a cost in human life is paid than your stance on a “Just War” if you are right!
Think about that.
I hesitate to bring this up, because I have to leave in a minute. I’d just like to say, I don’t think it’s all about oil
The GMR was built without funding by the World Bank, or the IMF, or Wall Street. And it would make Libya pretty much self sustaining as far as food goes.
The Economic Hitmen hate this project
Answers my question (an eCAHN as well) Thanks. Just fleshing out where you are coming from. I tend toward pacifism myself, but as you both point out self-defence has something to be said for it.
Gaddafi announced that he is distributing arms to his people for defense of Libya. We will now see whether this is indeed a popular uprising or a civil war. The key is how widely he distributes arms.
We decide which dictators to prop up and which ones to take down based on how nice they are to us, not on how nice they are to their own people. So as soon as we get done taking down Gaddafi, the new Libyan dictator we decide to prop up will be nice to us, but will be mean as hell to his people.
And notice that we’re stepping in to help the rebels in Libya that actually have weapons, but we aren’t willing to step in to help the peaceful protesters in Bahrain who are, for all practical purposes, weaponless. I suppose that if the protesters find some way to arm themselves, we’ll help take their dictator down like we are doing for the rebels in Libya. But as long as the Bahrainis remain oil-less and as long as their dictator remains nice to us, and especially to the Israelis, despite him being mean a hell to his people, we’ll continue to prop him up so that he is free to slaughter his people into submission.
If it’s true that you eventually become what you create, America will soon become a dictatorial state no different from the ones in the Middle East.
I heard Michelle picked the name. Very stylish and soon to cause a trend.
*scotch [neat, I presume, you have rocks if you want them] sliding down*
For now I’ll pass on the “trick you into punching me” argument, and settle on the “conduct” piece.
Yes, once-you-punch-me, I’ll punch back. But I won’t demand your death. But the death demand is found in all the “just” wars. I can’t think of one case where it isn’t.
I just have a complete aversion to non-natural, man-purposefully-caused death. I don’t think the death penalty is ever warranted. Ever. Not even bin-Laden.
“U.S. & U.K. wanton bombing of civilians in WWII” There was 2 sides to that as well don’t forget (we just had a bigger air force)
eCAHNomics March 19th, 2011 at 4:18 pm @ 110 said,
“IMO, the only just war is responding when your country is attacked by another country.”
Econ, when I was in high school, a bully was picking on a friend of mine, who was much smaller than the bully. The bully and I got into a shoving match. One of the PE coaches broke it up. He had the bully and I go into the gym and duke it out with boxing gloves, He pounded me, but the point is, I stuck up for the guy that couldn’t stick up for himself.
I haven’t done a lot of reading on WWII, but I have read that FDR demanded total surrender, which prolonged the war and led to many more deaths of both soldiers & innocents than would otherwise have occurred. And the end of the war was negotiated anyhow.
US & UK bombed every city in Germany into smithereens, which I did not realize until I went with my sil in the 1980s to visit where her family lived in Dusseldorf. I saw the footprints on residential streets where apt bldgs had been bombed & rebuilt after the war.
I have subsequently read 2 books on the subject (which was taboo until recent years), and it is stomach wrenching.
I would have looked for a different soln, esp if I were the PE coach, who was presumably supposed to be an adult. Violence begets violence.
Revenge was part of the motive claimed by U.K., and if that’s where your emotions are stuck, I guess you’re stuck with your emotions.
The bombing of German cities accomplished nothing militarily. It united the civilians behind Hitler & he moved his killing fields farther east out of range of allied bombers.
When will we begin bombing Riyadh for invading Bahrain and mowing down peaceful protestors there?
Oops, I’m sorry, I thought there was some moral or logical consistency here. There isn’t.
In fact, today, Hillary said the Bahraini buthcher king (that’s our butcher king) has the right to invite Saudi invaders into his country to suppress the 70+% of the Bahraini people that want freedom.
The stench gets stronger and stronger.
No doubt, many Libyans civilians will now die so that Obama can “protect” the Libyan people.
They can refer to the comment Madeleine Albright made during a 60 Min. interview with leslie Stahl years ago after Stahl asked if the deaths of a half million children due to sanctions against Iraq was worth the price in reference to the cost in innocent lives. Albright: ” I think this is a very hard choice, but the price – we think is worth it.” Go team go, winning is everything. Soon we’ll see Cheney and the likes of Kissinger on the tube offering insight and advice once they get their injections.
I’m a pragmatist on the death penalty. Didn’t start out with a moral position, but then, as I read more about it & found how arbitrarily it was applied, threat used to extract false confessions, and a whole host of other abuses, it made me into a strong opponent.
As for OBL, why make a martyr out of him. (I was 5 miles away when planes hit WTC.)
You’ll have to suffer through an ad first but here’s some video of a Qadaffi jet being shot down – over Benghazi.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/libyan-fighter-shot-13175984
Who was on the ground that blew up? Bueller?
This is what “no-fly” is.
And what did the “London Blitz” accomplish militarily? My emotions aren’t stuck anywhere, I was just trying to point out that neither side was a saint and that both engaged in brutality (if the shoe was on the other foot don’t kid yourself they would have been kinder) and which is why I find war is abhorrent.
The Benghazi Bubble
It’s sure to burst
by Justin Raimondo, March 18, 2011
The latest Western military intervention in the Arab world is occasioned by the supposedly imminent crushing of the Libyan rebels by Muammar Gadhafi’s mercenary army. This new crusade, launched amid an orgy of moralizing, on Thursday received the official imprimatur of the UN Security Council, which voted in favor of a resolution calling for a “no fly zone,” and “all necessary measures” to stop the projected slaughter short of sending in an “occupying army.” It’s now a race to see whether the British or the French will get in first licks.
The run-up to all this was instructive. The US, the Brits, the French, and an Arab League miraculously awakened to the concept of morality made a great show of pushing for UN intervention – an action many doubted the Security Council would take, due to the supposedly intransigent opposition of the Russians and the Chinese. The catalytic moment occurred with the call for intervention by the Arab League.
Leslie Gelb, the grand old man of foreign policy wonkery – and head of the influential Council on Foreign Relations – noted this, and called their bluff:
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It wasn’t Qadhafi’s jet, it was the rebels’ jet, according to reports.
Yes, and Albright didn’t even have enough editorial function in her brain to think of how that might sound & rephrase it or deflect it.
In retrospect, sanctions on Iraq enabled SH to have tighter control over the people & didn’t harm him a bit. They also softened the target so that the U.S. invasion was easier.
Amen. Defense means what it says and this is offense and offensive.
Another pathetic reason to cut SS. Unexpected expenditures have forced us to blah, blah,,,,
Either case. Doesn’t make much difference to me.
Who were the innocents on the ground?
Wait a second, the rebels got jets? flying in formation?
Will do, thanks!
The London blitz was just as unjust as the US & UK campaign against German civilians.
Your Q was asked in the context of U.S. participation, so I didn’t address the conduct of the other side.
The other part of bombing civilians is the opportunity cost. Not only did it on both sides of the channel unite citizens against the enemy, it also diverted war-short resources into aircraft, that were, if anything, counterproductive, when those same resources could have been used to build more tanks, boats, guns, train soldiers, etc. that might, you know, have actually helped win the war.
You are so right.
Because if THAT’s the case there’s even LESS reason for the US to be making a shooting war in Libya.
Some pilots defected to the rebels.
Most reports say it was a rebel jet attacking Gadhafi’s force and was shot down by Gadhafi’s forces.
I should have said “brutal tactics”
Well, then I stand by my #143.
Very good point about diverting resourses, hadn’t thought about that. I think we agree mostly I just mis-understood your point earlier. My apologies
“Most reports say it was a rebel jet attacking Gadhafi’s force and was shot down by Gadhafi’s forces”
Of course if they were taken down by the french or us, that would be the story we are told.
Not a problem. We had an interesting civil discussion, a treat for online. *g*
Congress what’s that?
I don’t think it’s out of bounds drawing attention to Obama’s coke use. The reason being he’s a hypocrite like any politician who jails people who are drug users. Obama got off without jail because he was part of an educated elite, but if you’re a poor black guy who gets caught your life is ruined.
Fuck the drug war.
Ah, fog of war & war propaganda. “First casualty of war is the truth.”
There’s a lot of truth to that BUT the air war was very important.
There are a huge series of telegrams back and forth between Churchill and Roosevelt about tonnage of war materials making it from the US to the European theater. Churchill’s basic message is “More, please.”
So is Stalin’s, btw. Just a wild-arsed-guess, but that was probably about 80% of the telegrams amongst the allies.
The rest were about strategy, which included the warplanes, the Norden bombsight, and Enigma. Enormous resources were given to code-breaking, which continue to this day.
Yes we did and that’s why I visit here. &best wishes to you & yours
I’m not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that war materiel was transported from US to UK by air? I thought it was mostly by ship as airplanes in WWII weren’t big enough to heft much materiel.
I also thought that the soln against U-boat attacks against US ships on Atlantic was convoys, which allowed some of the ships to track down the U-boat & destroy it, making U-boat attacks unattractive to Germans.
Not sure what airplanes had to do with decoding.
As a quaint aside, both Germans & Russians were still using a lot of horses during WWII.
backatcha.
Sorry I was unclear. The tonnage was war material demands by Allies over the sea. Basics, rifles, even food.
The air piece was arguments among the Allies aside from the tonnage. British air losses were enormous. At one point in the Battle of Britain in 1940 Churchill was aghast to find that every single aircraft was in the air over the Isle defending it, and it was barely enough.
As far as the decoding, I’m just saying that 20% of the cables were not about war materiel tonnage. A portion of that 20% was about Enigma, a portion was about warplanes, a portion was about strategies, etc.
Pardon butting in but yes our planes were to small to carry fuel & cargo across the oceans and the ship convoys made it easier to protect them when they were all bunched up with an escort. (My dad made a few Atlantic runs on a Liberty ship)
War is abstract, warfare is what happens. I’ve never known anyone personally who had the responsibility to command the deaths of many. Eisenhower (e.g.) knew he had to send boys to their certain deaths in decoy operations, to draw fire and resources from the enemy. So what if I understand? Killing is always wrong: there will be consequences.
Some no-fly-zone statements from our beltway critters:
Dennis Kucinich calls it an act of war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp06358NM6A
Ron Paul calls it an act of war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R325K6alVlA
Hillary Clinton, yes folks, even Hillary thinks this is a bad idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4DYk3lpdYE
John Kerry thinks it’s a bad idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUgKry8Q8v8
Robert Gates seems less than thrilled
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y3f3e2ieqU
It sure doesn’t look like Nobel Peace Prize Hope And Change President Obama would have been without support if he chose not to bomb Libya. This is all Barry, or rather, Barry’s owners.
So the importance of the air war was to defend Britain from air attacks from Germany. Check. But that would have req significantly fewer airplanes than were actually built during WWII and used for offensive purposes.
British air losses were enormous bc of their offensive attacks on Germany. Had they not engaged in those, they would have had much more protection at home. Another example of opportunity costs.
I don’t remember the stats, but a huge % of bombing crews/aircraft were lost in every raid. It was higher for the U.S., which claimed to be engaging in tactical bombing (taking out RRs, oil depots, etc) and thus had to bomb during the day, vs. the Brits who made little pretense of bombing for any purpose & did it at night. Bombs rarely fell within miles of their ‘targets.’
Your Kerry line is mis-leading. Hard to hear the questions but basically he’s fine with the NFZ but says he wants no boots on the ground(for what that’s worth). But yes Barry does suck.
Nice to know my memory can be trusted. It’s been a couple of years since I did that reading.
My dad was too old to fight in WWII.
Right. But you know what Germany had that Britain didn’t?
Drones – essentially the V2s.
So the British had to make an offense on the V2 launching sites. Sustained brutal losses. BTW, the summer air war component of the Battle of Britain really was essentially a defensive war in the skies. All the domestic planes were over the Island.
This can go on endlessly. The point is – War is a loser.
The End.
These “rebels” did not become a force overnight. The US via the CIA has been funding and training them for years. I’ll look for a link.
FWIW my guess would be both sides wanted as many planes as possible to gain air superiority over the other with all the benefits that would bring. All out war as they say.
I pray your life never depends on my memory.
I won’t name names but I fear we bored the others to death. :-)
But EPUland can be fun.
Moving upstairs & thanks all for the discussion.
John, sorry, that was a general kinda metaphor . . . ;-)
So, yer against the UN?
(as long as we’re all gonna continue this all or nothing debate that goes nowhere)
*G*
My dearest friend Kelly (/Molinarian accent):
That’s a big picture, and a broad brush.
You are incredibly, um, dedicated to your ideals, which you have fought for all yer life. I SO respect that . . .
I don’t think I’m any less dedicated to MY ideals . . . if there was a fight and two were beating the SHIT outta one, would you intervene? I have in my lifetime, done so, I’ve been hurt, too . . . but I stood for my beliefs, as a pre teen, teen, and adult.
I made moral judgments in doing so, too.
N still do.
In this case, Jasmine was going along swimmingly for all our hopes, till Ghaffadi and Saudi Arabia intervened. They are bullies. In Libya they are bullies, in Bharain they are bullies.
I don’t control the USA, I am disgusted with the Bharanian sitch.
I support the UN Libyan resolution, action, and pray that after its over, Jasmine triumphs.
If it don’t, I’ll curse the gods for their scorn of all things right.
N I curse the corporate fascist scoruge that infests our planet and all our fellow humans as much as curse the puppet dictators our country has propped up.
But I’d like to draw a line, and horned headed pony wishes alike, I pray this is a start.
If not, I’ll curse all again, as I have since I was a young boy and my father and mother taught me to do when right and wrong butt heads.
Slainthe mhath, hoss.
Libya aside, I’d readily agree USA has become a dictatorial state long ago.
That is indeed a big picture look at it all . . . I only hope Libya has an outcome that benefits more people than hurts people, n that outcome is to be determined.
WIthout outside help, be it from USA or anyone else, the Jasmine was being slaughtered down like dogs by Ghadaffi.
How does one resolve this kind of moral imperative issue?
Thanks, you’re right. My statement didn’t really capture it. He called the situation a civil war and said that only to prevent massacre would he advise it. There’s a ton of wiggle room in the concept of massacre pre-crime but that does seem to be along the lines of the admins narrative.
It’s ok to take a beef to death.
That’s what it seems like .
You only hate bad murder, is that it?
You missed the part where the United Nation imposing the no fly zone does NOT require Congressional approval on offering military assistance. If Obama had imposed it, he would have had to declare war against Libya and go to Congress to get approval.
HTH
You know, I can’t help but laugh when I consider that if we didn’t intervene and Gaddhafi gripped his iron fist over Libya again, FDL would be criticizing the west for ignoring the humanitarian crisis and allowing thousands of innocent pro-democracy activists to be murdered.
If you don’t believe that humanitarian intervention is right, you have no business saying that you believe in human rights. All those nice resolutions the UN passes, all the norms the UN helps establish worldwide, mean absolutely nothing if nobody has the balls to do anything when a tyrant flips his finger to the civilized world. Without HI, human rights would just be rhetoric.
I thought Progressives were supposed to be proactive and hated it when governments talk up all these good things but are never really serious about it? I used to consider myself Progressive. But I find that I encounter far less cognitive dissonance when I consider myself an actual liberal.
As I responded to sybill that there is NO need for Congress to authorize assistance on the no fly zone imposed by the United Nations.
United Nation imposing the no fly zone does NOT require Congressional approval on offering military assistance. If Obama had imposed it, he would have had to declare war against Libya and go to Congress to get approval – as a former Constitutional Law professor, he would know these things.
Right.On.Cue.
McCain and McConnell wanted to offer direct aid. However, in order to do that, we have to declare war against Libya and need Congressional approval. It has always been a United Nations issue, thus they were the ones who imposed the no fly zone and the US is supporting the French-British led military attack. So yeah, the President has addressed the Constitutional issues after SOS Clinton had talks with him following her discussions with the other nations directly involved.
This is an interesting question. Given our track record in the region, I’d expect that whatever we end up doing will only make things worse. Same goes for much of Western Europe.
My bet is that they’ll try to break Libya into two smaller nations which are easier to control/manipulate.
But that’s not to say that the UN in the form of neighboring African nations and maybe Turkey should be prevented from providing some type of counter balance to the potential excesses of Ghadaffi.
the intervention in libya makes sense to me.
quaddifi has hundreds of major armaments (airplanes and tanks) with which to kill his countrymen; he has a lot of money to pay mercenaries to kill his countrymen in order to support his regime; he has oil with which to mesmerize european and american politicians.
but all of a sudden, thanks to the hillary clinton team and their ability to convince president obama to intervene, quadaffi’s power tokens are not working for him.
that is a good thing.
this american/european intervention in international affairs,
it should be loudly noted,
is the FIRST intervention of his presidency that pres obama has been able to design and control from the beginning.
the intervention seems reasonable to me and warranted by quaddafi’s history as a leader.
it also seems warranted to me by the opportunity to get rid of another ” long-run” arab leader (30+ yrs) who has done lityle constructive for his nation, or for the international community of which his nation is a defacto member, since he seized power decades ago.
there is a warranted and potentially socially productive use of tomahawk missles; i think this intervention in libya is one such.
I can hardly remember when
peace brokering mattered.
The alternative is always this:
http://images.clipartof.com/thumbnails/16164-Three-Toy-Soldiers-Marching-Down-A-Green-Carpet-And-Carrying-Candycanes-Clipart-Illustration-Image.jpg
I think it involves looking for slivers
of common interest from which to take
baby steps.
In fact, all these people have much in common.
If some actually support brutal dictators not
from out of duress, perhaps they’ll settle for
partition allowing for some fascist territory
but still allowing for open emigration.
Then, ideally, people should be allowed to vote
with their feet, such as if North Koreans were
allowed to move into the South.
http://sites.google.com/site/evernewecon
What’s next?
International forces bombard targets in Libya
Coalition forces launch Libya assault, which Gaddafi calls “colonial, Crusader” aggression.
“Vice Admiral Bill Gortney, director of the US military”s Joint Staff, said the missile strikes were only the first phase of a multi-phase action.”
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201132002236603156.html
Since when are parties engaged in civil war labeled as “activists”? These folks have guns and are shooting at one another. Would we have labeled Robert E Lee, James Longstreet and Stonewall Jackson as “activists”?
To everyone asking when Congress authorized this use of force…You are all just so cute with your quaint 6th Grade notions of the US Constitution and all. Just don’t trouble yourself with such childish thoughts. You must remember that America has always been at war with Libya.
And the average unit cost of the 112 Tomahawks launched today in support of Empire is $1.4 million each.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/bgm-109.htm
The average unit cost of a Tomahawk missle is $1.4 million each.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/bgm-109.htm