Thanks,, Allison. I’ve been saying the same thing for years. Screw all this courteous protocol gentle-this-and-that shit. But of course at the federal level this would require there to be two different parties, with different goals, beliefs, and objectives.

“Bipartisanship” is exactly the same thing as “backroom deals in smokefilled rooms”. If you have actual democracy you have conflict.

Alison!

Fuck civility and double fuck the rapacious Republican bastards trying to destroy the American middle class.

I’ve been saying for some time now that’s it’s nice to hold the moral high ground and all but being all high minded has only resulted in the erosion of the ideals of the left in this country. We are, (in some cases justifiably), seen as weak and milktoast in our responses and our actions. We keep allowing them to define us and to frame every debate. It’s time to get pissed and to play hardball. We can sing kumbaya when it’s over and we have something to sing about.

Fuck the rich! No…on second thought, they might enjoy that.

I for one don’t deplore the combative tone of the Wisconsin State Legislature. I love it. Looking back at the past decade, looking back at the past four decades, I’m not sure our country can take much more civility.

There is a Class Warfare happening this very moment and the Rich/Powerful corporations are winning it. Damn the Roberts court for granting a piece of paper the same rights as a living breathing being… How freeking absurd is that??

The whole reason we have politics is because we do not agree nor do we all have the same interests. There are occasions (increasingly rare) where all or most parties can agree to a common course of action and where “bipartisanship” can work. In modern usage, however, it just means Democrats rolling over and playing dead for the Republicans. Civility is also fine, if it means debating issues on their merits without ad hominem personal attacks. It is a monstrosity when ,as is now the case, it means not pointing out that one side is lying out their asses or that their policies amount to the raping of the middle classes for the benefit of the Scaifes, Kochs, Coorses, Waltons, and the rest of the billionaires’ coup.

After the Republicans rammed the union busting bill through, (illegally in my opinion), there were many calls for a general strike. But cooler, more “civil” heads prevailed and they decided once again to “play by the rules” and “work to make a change from within the system” and look toward recall. And what is the result? Scott Fitzgerald just said that the returning Democratic Senators aren’t allowed to vote. He just decided on his own that their votes won’t be asked for or recorded. THAT’S what being civil gets us.

The most civil members of the United States Senate are Joe Lieberman and Lindsay Graham; I rest my case against civility in public life.

Violence, no. Civility, not either.

So very well said, Dick. Thank you.

There has been a class war going on for thirty years and the rich have been winning, as we have rarely even fought back. The Democratic Party seems to have abandoned the working classes and the labor movement in favor of donations from corporations and the wealthy rentiers.

Allison, great thread! I totally agree. Cut the bullshit…we are in a fight for political survival with the assholes who are ruining america, and I include in that declaration, the man for whom I voted so enthusiastically, in the last presidential election.

Thank you. No slack.

I’m in.

Never. Cease. Making. Fucking. Demands!

Unfortunately the evil bastards who are raping the working classes made up the rules to protect their interests. Playing nice only gets you run over and stomped on. We won what rights we had through blood and battle and that is the only way we will reclaim them. If we play safe, we lose.

Got news for ya.

Corps aren’t winning. They have won.

But it might make their mouth sore.

Class War: suit up, America.

Actions that are uncalled for ought to call for words that are uncalled for.

Which is why I can’t bear to go on the WI threads. Civility under those circumstances is morally equivalent to surrender.

Dealing with corrupt, indecent bastards civilly is like taking a knife to a gunfight.

Never. Cease. Making. Increasing. Fucking. Demands!

Fixed it for you. We need to take back our country from the plutocrats and push them out to the margins.

I don’t know who the hell you think you are Allison, but if you don’t have anything nice to say about the teahadists you need to sit down by me.

No, it is like taking a bouquet to a gunfight. It is unilateral disarmament.

We won what rights we had through blood and battle and that is the only way we will reclaim them. If we play safe, we lose.

Precisely! Our ancestors willingly surrendered their lives and sacrificed their health to win freedom for themselves and their descendants. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t want us to watch it all be taken away from the sidelines because we don’t wanna be mean to people. The fire for a general strike was there that night. The passion was there and the support was there. And union leadership stood up on it’s legs and said with a mighty whimper, “Nah. It wouldn’t be civil”. Now what is it going to take to recover that passion and that support? Such things are organic in nature and can’t really be replicated intentionally.

Civility doesn’t work if your side is the only side being civil.

Agreed. People I like and respect making arguments for behaving themselves. It makes me ill. Stand up. Nobody is going to do it for you. Together we stand and all…

Wish I could be so concise. Spot on.

But it’s worse than that. As I typed in 19, civility under those circumstances is immoral.

Ask Mother Jones and Joe Hill about civility. Ask the miners at Ludlow and Matewan. Ask the workers at Pullman or those in Haymarket Square. They will tell you that the plutocrats only understand one language and you need to speak it as well as they do.

They may have won the battle but they will lose the War.. The people are getting way too fed up with the situation… don’t discount what the masses can do..

Hear, Hear! I only wish most of Americans (and much of the “progressive” blogosphere) were going o listen to this sage (yep, I called it sage) advice.

So where is the center between choice and coat hangers, unions and child labor, pensions and peasant policy, bullets or bread? Feel free to provide more contrast.

Sometimes I behave myself. Sometimes I tell it like I see it. And, lots of times I want to say Kiss it!

We’ve been whining about the right wingers playing dirty since the Reagan years and doing nothing but just that: Whining about it. Okay. That’s been going on for over 31 years now. Experiment over. The results suck ass. Time to try something new. Or to go back to something old that produces results.

I’ve spent an entire life learning to be passably polite to clients. Fuck that.

And Bill Maher is outrageously uncivil here. The 100 piece pizza imagery is priceless. And the pinata stuff is pretty funny too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTJsXumR3bU

Frederick Douglass was more circumspect: “Power concedes nothing without a demand.”

As for the argument that if we misbehave ourselves they’ll call us bad names: Awww! How sad would that be? Are there any names that they haven’t used as pejoratives for us in the English language still?

Fuck this crap being civil to arrogant bullies. I have no time to appease cowards like them. Time to get the brass knuckles of organized, effective protest and concerted action out and start speaking to these scum in the only language they will understand, which can start by recalling every one of the GOPiglicans. They prey on the apathy and weakness of the public and it’s time to call these brownshirts’ bluff.

Meh. I up your examples tenfold. Read Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle”. Google Bhopal and Dow Chemical. See Triangle shirtwaist fire. Google Tom Delay and Saipan, to learn about forced abortions. If it means profit a Corp. will secretly insure you, kill you, auction off your organs, render your remains to soap, sell it to your children, kill them and burn down your house, collect the insurance and use part of the profits to place political ads denouncing trial lawyers, big union bosses and dirty fucking hippies.

Costermongers interlude. (Comic intr’act in Britain.)

I once had a client on Wall St. who complained mightily about my research. Was a Raygun supporter iirc. I talked him through the stats for perhaps 45 minutes on the phone. It became clear that no amount of evidence would be sufficient. So I politely said: It is clear that you are dissatisfied with CSFB economics research. I suggest you report your complaint to your salesman.

Then to CMA, I reported the incident to my boss, who nearly shit his britches. I told him not to worry. I was sure that (1) the client would never do any such thing, and (2) if I were wrong about (1), the salesman would cheer what I said bc the client was clearly an asshole.

I never heard another word about it.

IMO it’s no coincidence that there are 2 groups who have advanced politically and socially in the last 30 years; Republicans and LGBT.

What’s common is that on the LGBT side there’s been tons of focused activism, and it isn’t always polite. It can get “in your face.”

The generic left hasn’t advanced because it plays too nice.

We get called bad names whether we behave or not. So the path is clear. Tell the truth. If it can be done while behaving fine. If not, equally fine.

And just like bullies, surrendering your lunch money only encourages them to demand it over and over and to escalate their demands. Surely we can remember this from the school yards? Standing up to bullies is the only reliable and effective way to get them to stop bullying you. You might get a punch in the nose but if we punch back, they’ll stop because like all bullies, they are cowards. Appeasement never works. Ask Neville Chamberlain.

We get called bad names whether we behave or not

Exactly my point. The only power a bully has is the power we give them.

You want to be called a……..Thug!?

I sure miss Alan Greyson’s voice on the House floor…! 8-(

So, stomping my foot and yelling You’re just a meanie doesn’t cut it? Dang.
Actually, I have thrown a punch or two a couple times in my life. Had hair between my fingers before too. Believe it not.

Nice example. And so true. We would still be entirely in the closet if not for the Stonewall riots. They weren’t the Stonewall petition gatherings.

Speaking of which, Andy Towle had a great find today of this kid taking his bully down.

Pffft! I get called much worse on a daily basis…by my own relatives.

Damn, that was a great piece of writing. And Rep. Mason’s speech was equally good. I wish I could have gotten in the capitol that day to hear it.

We’re near to boiling here in Wisconsin. People don’t feel so warm and fuzzy to the police who stand like palace guards. Maybe it’s time for it to get ugly. Not violent, but ugly. A general strike. Massive picketing at a corporation that funds this nonsense. Shouting, banging on doors.
I’m genuinely scared here. I have to shake the feeling that “this can’t be happening,” because it is happening. And the question is what are going to do about it?

To paraphrase the bumper sticker I see all over town here, “Well behaved people rarely make history.”

Better a thug than a rug.

LMAO! That’s the kind of unruliness we need to exhibit! Fucked that bully up!

Our children is being confused since our bloodiest war we call the Civil War; and arguably our most civil national politician in our lifetimes, George McGovern, compared Nixon and his regime to Hitler and the Nazis in real time.

So true, don’t want to be Walk(er)ed over.

Well said, Oilfield!

This “we all need to find the middle-ground” bullshit is ruining us.

Good point. I’ve been thinking a lot about why LGBT issues have made progress and also what kind of blowback will result from that progress. I pretty much came to the same conclusion on the progress. Jury still out on the blowback.

Once, I got called by the school and I had to go get my kid. They told me he punched another kid in the nose. I didn’t say a word to anyone in the office, not a word until we got in the car. I asked him what happened and he told me the kid said something about me (we never met) and used the F word. I said, Good for you.

Nice!

JMO, but I think that bumper sticker is too well behaved.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you have to state it. Say it loud, and say it proud!

Hey, here’s a thought: the guy we need to get uncivil with, is sitting in the oval office. He only responds to us when we insult him and gin up firestorms about his selling us out…a la Shirley Sherrod.

Otherwise, he uses us for comic shtick to entertain fatcat dems and the msm.

And any blowback that results will be dealt with. In the meanwhile, support for same sex marriage and equal civil rights for all has never been higher.

There will always be blowback, because the other side never rests and never quits and has all the money. Our biggest failing on the left is that every time we win a battle, we think we have won the war and lay back to rest on our laurels, while the forces of oppression plot out their next seven moves.

Well, blowback is happening now, just like it is on woman’s rights.

IMO it’s because of a co-opted left with the rise of a conservative Prez who pretends to be Progressive. LGBT is in marginally better shape than woman’s rights because there aren’t as many LGBT groups in the veal pen as there are women’s.

true dat cause they have most of the money… But we do have numbers and those numbers need to be recruited and organized…

Our biggest failing on the left is that every time we win a battle, we think we have won the war and lay back to rest on our laurels, while the forces of oppression plot out their next seven moves.

That’s our curse unfortunately. We are oriented to achieving our goals so we can stop struggling while they live for the struggle. There are very few left wing people who troll conservative websites compared to the overwhelming presence of right wing trolls that frequent liberal sites. It’s like courage vs cowardice. If you are courageous, you’re much more likely to be on the liberal side of things. Conservatives are by nature cowards. Just like bullies.

Right – it never ends. There is no one time victory point. So that’s why it makes sense to:

Never. Give. Up.

I think the difference is also that the LGBT community remains much more marginalized in important ways than women are. While they are a long way from equality, enough women have attained enough of what they want to fear losing it if they speak out. For the LGBT community they still do not have many fundamental rights that they seek.

Yup. But, they may say the’re just under too much stress.
It’s a been a long rough day. Gonna split. See you all tomorrow.
Think I’ll close all my windows before I hit it.
Hugs to all.

Night. Sweet dreams.

Of course they have money and alot of idiots like this guy in Kansas:

Kansas State Rep. Virgil Peck (R) suggested Monday that the best way to deal with the illegal immigration problem may be the same way the state might deal with the problem of “feral hogs” — by shooting them from a helicopter.

This kind of crap grows old with most normal people. Unfortunately, here in Arizona most normal people left and all we have are racists WHACKOS!!

True. That’s a finer point than I was initially making, but it’s Repubs and LGBT actually advancing. Not women, otherwise pay would be equal by now.

Rightards at work don’t even talk politics around me anymore. They used to tease me about being an Obama voter. I would say what was my choice, McComplain and the Quitter from Twitter? Only a complete fucking idiot would vote for them two. Hell, Ernie and Bert would be better.

They shut right the fuck up. I am not interested in debating these asshats, only in defeating them. It’s why I’m so annoyed at Obama, he walls off the left, concedes from the center and gets mutated rightwing legislation doomed to failure that rightards campaign as proof liberalism doesn’t work. Goofy bastard.

And never rely on the other side to give up. Roe vs Wade was decided almost forty years ago and the other side is still trying to overturn it. The Social Security Act is 76 years old and they are still trying to repeal it. They never stop and so, neither can we.

Thanks, Dick. You too.

In response to 3 responses about blowback.

My initial thoughts are similar to yours.

Or in general terms, how conduct yourself in advance, knowing there will be a backlash if you make near-term ‘progress’ on your issue, depends on whether the longer run consequences of activism followed by backlash are a net plus or a net minus.

It seems on LGBT issues, the longer run will will produce continued movement in the intended direction, esp since the demographics strongly support that conclusion.

Gender not so much. Very little progress. Significant backlash. Mostly what I observe in my little world is mostly stasis.

Nite (((demi)))

You always have to fight for equality and your rights or somebody will take them away. It is worth noting that all of the known egalitarian societies in the world all have a variety of mechanism to actively maintain that equality. It does not just happen all by itself (nor does inequality for that matter).

((You, Peggy, You))

But the goal can’t be to limit blowback. It must always be to achieve equal rights for all and fairness in the public and private sectors and an end to discrimination and related violence.

Representative Pecker can kiss my hairy white ass.

i was going to comment, in the vein of “hurray! domenpfy ginally said what needed to be said”.

and, i would add, what needed to be said about a simpering, genuflecting main theme of the
main-stream-media.

but dr. dick @3 and @7

made my arguments for me.

‘night.

To achieve equality (LOL), the NET effect of activism and backlash is what matters.

That is for sure, just remember they are corporations that buy mouth pieces and never die, unlike the flesh and blood of this country.. Damn fucking Robert’s court.. Bought and paid for shills..

Need more of the stupid?
From Wisconsin we have this:

Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald wrote this afternoon in an email to his caucus that Senate Dems remain in contempt of the Senate and will not be allowed to vote in committees despite returning from their out-of-state boycott of the budget repair bill vote.

“They are free to attend hearings, listen to testimony, debate legislation, introduce amendments, and cast votes to signal their support/opposition, but those votes will not count, and will not be recorded,” wrote Fitzgerald, R-Juneau

This is actually good I think because more folks are going to get really pissed off.

I would generally agree. As I indicated above, I think the main reason that there has been so little movement on gender equality in the last 20 years is that enough women have gotten enough of what they want to be afraid of losing it if they rock the boat. this has long been the strategy of the plutocrats to defuse resistance.

“We place the cause of the Irish Republic under the protection of the Most High God, Whose blessing we invoke upon our arms, and we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity, or rapine. In this supreme hour the Irish nation must, by its valour and discipline and by the readiness of its children to sacrifice themselves for the common good, prove itself worthy of the august destiny to which it is called.”

Excerpt from the Proclamation of the Irish Republic, 1916

Let no Republican doubt our resolve to prove ourselves worthy of the destiny to which we are called, to deliver fairness and equity to all people, not just the privileged few.

Yep. See mine @ 8.

Two things, and I’m working from stored memory as my google skillz sux. Didn’t blacks get the vote before the woman, and when my first child was born, a daughter, the birth control pill had just became legal for single women (1981). And equal pay was voted in with this administration. Wimmens has been sucklin on the hind tit, politically speaking, for way too long and I don’t get it.

Damn! So what are you drinking?

“If you’re not ready to die for it, put the word ‘freedom’ out of your vocabulary.” – Malcolm X.

This has been a great thread, but I has to toddle off so I can corrupt the minds of America’s youth again on the morrow. Take care all.

Damn liberal professor, corrupting America’s youth

Night Doc – was a slice, haven’t been on a thread with you for a while. :)

Of course, so the being unruly rule applies here as well. You can’t sit back, you can’t rely on the other side to accept the new way with good grace. Good lord, people like Peter King are still fighting the crusades. Many people in the south would tell you that the civil war ended wrong and they’d like to revisit it. We can’t relent. We can’t worry about backlash, though it is a fact of life. The backlash isn’t due to our actions, it comes from their unwillingness to accept progress. Fretting about backlash is just once again blaming ourselves for the bullying we’re on the receiving end of. It’s not our fault they behave the way that they do. All we can do is be responsible for the way we behave. And if that means being unruly, so be it.

Night DrD.

Black men got the vote long before any woman.

Ummm…. just coca cola tonight. The Patron over the weekend was enough for me for a bit.

And Frederick Douglass threw women under the bus in that little scene. Willingly and cheerfully. Let that be a lesson to us about allying ourselves with groups like the teabaggers, which has been brought up before on this blog. Any alliances should be made with eyes wide open. In the end, many people will stab you in the back if doing so means they get theirs. Teabaggers especially I would think.

This “we all need to find the middle-ground” bullshit is ruining us

Absolutely. Someone needs to tell the national Dems that until their ears bleed because they’ll ignore it.

One can be paralyzed worrying about retaliation. Blowback only occurs when our side stays home, such as in the last election, and states like Wisconsin are seeing the benefit of teahadist rule. Democrat activists were demoralized due to President Carebear giving Wall Street tycoons foot massages behind the Winn Dixie, and further damaging the treasury by opening the vault doors to big pharma and AHIP for reciprocating campaign contributions. Billionaire industrialist energized the fundies, teahadists, racists and general morons of the rightwing base with the notion a Kenyan interloper was having dirty muslim sex in their white house and they needed to take their country back. So, motivation was on the other side, but they are the ones who should be concerned with blowback, not us. Just look at the data.

Here is some whackaloon crap that we are having to put up with in Arizona:
Glenn Spencer, Nativist Anti-Semite, To Lecture Arizona Senate Committee

I’m beginning to think even a bludgeon wouldn’t work on them. I’ve abandoned the Vichycrats as thoroughly and finally as I have the Republicans.

Didn’t know that about Frederick Douglas, but can’t say I’m surprised.

Wimmins are far too civil & also recognize that only alpha-females will make it. Big lesson I learned on Wall ST.

Amen, Sister. We’re all coyotes now….

Kansas legislator suggests using hunters in helicopters to control illegal immigration

There is no evidence that Susan B. Anthony ever again communicated with Douglass after that betrayal. Sure gave me a new perspective on the man. And not a favorable one. It’s the same thing a lot of gay, (especially men), did to transgendered Americans over the first ENDA, brought up during the Bush years. Barney Frank led the way on that one and there was exactly zero chance of it ever being signed by Bush so they managed to split the community and caused a whole lot of bad blood for exactly zero gain. At least Douglass got the vote out of his betrayal.

I agree.

Mark Warner was on the talk shows the other day repeating the right wing’s Social Security lies, and Evan Bayh joined the Fox News Network. They’re obsessed with a middle ground that doesn’t exist.

With Dems like that, who needs the GOP?

Don’t know much about the history of either movement. So plz correct anything wrong that I type.

But recently heard that no woman was allowed to speak at MLK DC demonstrations. Finally, with complaints, there was a small cave-in & small delegation of women & short speech allowed.

Of course, there was the song too, but that was about it.

Don’t for an instant resent any progress blacks or LGBT have made. Cheer them all.

Just saying that it is not the same story for all disadvantaged groups.

On the other hand, we could use more Shirley Chisholms—Unbought and Unbossed:

“I want history to remember me not just as the first black woman to be elected to Congress, not as the first black woman to have made a bid for the presidency of the United States, but as a black woman who lived in the 20th century and dared to be herself.”

Just saying that it is not the same story for all disadvantaged groups.

Oh absolutely agree. For many reasons, and not always nice ones. For this reason I advocate unruliness even more where needed.

Bless Shirley Chisholm.

Don’t think there have been many in her category.

It wasn’t MY point. Just, women are at least half or more of the population, not exactly a minority group or ethnic or gay, but they lag in political clout. It stuns me.

heh. You’re pushing my “unruly” button big time, sistah.

So how to create unruliness for wimmin.

I do my little part.

And notice that a disproportionate # of whistleblowers are women.

Still, we are NOT alpha males. And as a group, unfortunately are disadvantaged by that.

They’re obsessed with a middle ground that doesn’t exist.

Precisely. That’s why they call us names like “sanctimonious” and “purist” and suggest that we must be on drugs. Anything to damage our credibility or undermine our message. You can’t fight with these people on your side, ready to betray you in an instant. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, that’s true. But in this case the friend of my enemy is my enemy.

True enough. She was a genuine lion of courage who bowed to nobody and couldn’t care less about the “niceties” of the status quo.

How did today’s “March from State Department to White House to Protest Treatment of Bradley Manning” go? Any videos?

It wouldn’t stun you if you put yourself in women’s shoes.

Women are not only a majority of the pop, they are an even greater majority of educated in U.S. Yet no progress. Don’t blame us. Blame evolution, if you need a scapegoat.

On edit: It didn’t occur when I typed it how ironic putting yourself in women’s shoes would be. If you had to wear those instruments of torture, you would know what I’m talking about.

Speaking of unrulies, have you been there recently? I had to give up on them.

Heh. Nothing but flats for me.

Nope. Hardly spend the time that I’d like to here, so…

That’s why they call us names like “sanctimonious” and “purist” and suggest that we must be on drugs

They also think talk like that is going to win over Republicans and independents. Hasn’t worked in 30 years.

Somehow, I create unruliness in women without even trying. Even when I give compliments. Just the other day I says, “Say, you don’t sweat much for a fat chick.” She comes totally unglued, go figure.

(In case you can’t tell, this is an ironical joke, exaggerated for illustrative purposes utilizing metaphorical symb…whatev)

*heh* Wuss…! ;-)

Another great example. Vichycrats let themselves be bullied into making a “gentleman’s agreement” instead of real reform in the Senate and the Republicans reneged on it the very first opportunity they had and still are. If they aren’t traitors and undeserving of my support, then they are too stupid for words and undeserving of my support. So which is it?

Republican senators have just announced that they will block the confirmation of a new Commerce Secretary – or any commerce related positions – until Democrats move on free trade agreements for Columbia and Panama.

Vichycrats are stupid or corrupt or both. there is no “D” choice.

{ LOL } That’s because it’s a “back-handed compliment” and not to be confused with a back-handed serve.

Until this night I did not know you were female. My first female boss was my first female boss for two weeks before I realized she was my first female boss.

Corrupt hiding behind the skirts of the openly corrupt.

Like abused wives and girlfriends, they think that if only they change this or that about themselves, their abusers will finally love them and treat them right. It’s their fault you see. They make their partners abuse them.

Got it.

But for future ref, suggest you look for a less offensive example that makes the same point. *g*

Maybe but I used to wear heels and finally decided that making my legs look good in a skirt wasn’t worth the damage to my feet.

Going to go to bed. Sorta surprised that Allison started such a great conversation and never joined in. Oya.

I think we done good today. I like the flames coming off the temperature bar up top the post. Makes me smile. :-)

See, there you go wringing your hands, clutching your pearls and heading for the fainting sofa whispering “civility, civility, my Kingdom for some civility.”

Goodnight Margaret, always good to have your insight on these threads. You’re pretty smart for a chick. /s

Pleasant Dreams, Peg…! *g*

CTuttle is upstairs!
Late, Late Night FDL: Maybe

Can’t believe I missed this thread. It’s gold.

BTW, Koch Industries doesn’t have a share price. It’s privately held, FTW. The Koch brothers themselves don’t even have shareholders – they just keep all their profit and split it down the middle. Some might say that’s much more insidious.

Like me.

I had only 2 assistants in all my working years. 1/2 secretary who was always female. One full-time RA, who was most often male. Had prolly a dozen over the years, had a problem with only one, and think that had nothing to do with gender, but rather with teh differences between his my opinions about what constituted real research. I had my standards, which didn’t change over the years. He was bored by the work. I thought that was great so gave him an independent project. He did a mediocre job, which I kept asking him to revise before I allowed him to publish. You can imagine the unspoken tension.

Have often asked myself why I didn’t hire more women. (RAs worked for me for about 2 years, after which I interviewed about half a dozen before hiring the next one.) Short version: women didn’t measure up.

One example: Young woman, a leading candidate, was a Wellesley grad, my AM. Last hurdle was an undergrad paper. Hers was incoherent, despite receiving an A. So I chose the guy.

I subsequently wrote Wellesley, saying how badly she stacked up in her written work, with my Wellesley grad year. Got a response that Wellesley had the highest standards and surely I must be mistaken.

I don’t know how to incorporate all those conflicting signals. All I knew was, if I hired the woman, my own job would be in jeopardy.

Only did I experience that with one young man, who I suspected was LD. I got him tested, remediated, and it worked out OK.

Last thing I want to do is blame my own gender, but didn’t have a good experience with it.

Now, let’s discuss how we can be less nice to each other.

Less polite.

Less CIVIL.

I spent last Thursday with the Wisconsin Assembly debate on the Screw the Workers We Don’t Need ‘Em Anyway Act on in the background while I worked, and as I listened to speeches by Republicans and Democrats I was struck by something.

These people were angry. They were hurt. They were unapologetic. They said things like “lies” and “hate” and “wrong” and “unjust.” They said these things loudly. They said them to the people they were saying them about. They made no apologies. They didn’t pretend to be friendly.

We can’t make decisions about who best represents American values if everybody’s busy pretending they all really want the same things in the end.

What happens as a result of political decisions isn’t civil. People starve in poverty. People die of preventable disease.

A-fucking-men.

but when have those in charge not enacted a penalty on those who speak up in anger at injustice and are unapologetic? only when those speaking up are in agreement with, or serve the purpose of, the goals of the authorities (meaning those who have the power to penalize dissent).

Hi selise, we’ve been epu’d.

Surprised to seeing you up so late. Moving to LLN.

lol. i’m lost in epu land again…. see ya upstairs

Thank you. Great post. Gandhi’s answer to a question about “western civilization” applies equally to fantasies about Republican civility: “It would be a good thing.”

If Dems – including Barack Obama – keep expecting true compromise and civility in the face of their obvious non-existence, then they agree with Republicans or haven’t the stomach to do their jobs. If their fear of controversy or being rude to another neighbor in their gated communities so frightens them, let them find other work. Boot ‘em off the public payroll.

As Allison says, I and we can’t live with much more of this kind of civility.

Oh, and I think the same goes, in spades, for the democratic party. President Capitulate and his right-wing crew need as much incivility as their more radical fellow-travelers.

When I argue and/or fight, I am not “civil” by any stretch of the imagination especially when the other side is not. I’ll meet them in kind and even surpass them if that’s what it takes. I know that I am forever being told to shut up by the “civility” brigade.

THANK YOU ALLISON!!! It always takes a woman. I have felt this for years, and wondered what in the hell is wrong with America. I joined my local Democratic party with the same attitude that Allison and I are displaying here. I was chastised for my anger, and willingness to tell it like it is.

After so many years of getting beaten up by Rethugs, and seeing my party (Democrats) either turn the other cheek, or play lap poodle to the Rightwingnuts, one has to get angry, and loud. One has to wonder whose side her party is on. Finally, you have to seek other means of accomplishing what civility failed to do.

Please, Allison, make this message to the DuPage County Democrats, and Illinois State Democrats, as well as Obama.

Furthermore, Lincoln was wrong. He should have let the racist hillbillies have the south, and split the country, because this getting along thing is not working. It never has.

Oh, I’ve been called crazy, by members of my own Democratic Party.

That was when I insisted that Bu$h stole the 2000 and 2004 elections.
And, when I insisted that we now have touch screen machines so the Rethugs
can cheat on election day.

To Echonomics: Don’t rewrite history. Some African American men had the right to vote before women in 1919; it depended on where the African American lived.

The Voting Rights Act of 1964 was the the true beginning of the attempt to create an American Democracy.

As a woman, I am grateful my mother could vote but I wish many others could have too.

Marry me, ha ha!

But seriously though, you make a legitimate point. I’ve been posting on political forums and blogs for years, and the most idiotic things far too many owners and moderators of so-called liberal places do is enforce a false code of civility wherein the far right is allowed to get away with saying the most reprehensible things to and about the left, but dare type so much as one word in retaliation that is anything but absolutely 100% polite and hell will reign down.

Politics isn’t civil, nor should it be. We are locked in an ideological war that has been waged against us for decades. It is a war fought on the airwaves with words. We cannot fight that war, much less win it, if we continue to deprive ourselves of the rhetorical tools needed to overcome the opposition. No politician ever got anything done for those he or she represents by being polite. He or she got things done by going all-out to make sure it passed, and many are the bodies that litter the political landscape. Lyndon Johnson didn’t get Medicare passed and signed into law by playing nice with the GOP. Franklin Roosevelt didn’t get the New Deal by being polite to an opposition party and an elite class of society that openly displayed their hatred for him — he welcomed their hatred and took them head on, all the while putting together the coalition needed to pass the reforms he sought. Those reforms were genuine ones, too, not the window dressing foisted upon us by the Democrats of today.

Stop being polite to the far right. They will never reciprocate, only step up their attacks. Don’t be afraid to call lies lies or liars liars. And don’t be intimidated into shutting up lest you offend someone who wastes no opportunity to offend you.

There are places to go where that’s not a problem.

“If it means profit a Corp. will secretly insure you, kill you, auction off your organs, render your remains to soap, sell it to your children, kill them and burn down your house, collect the insurance and use part of the profits to place political ads denouncing trial lawyers, big union bosses and dirty fucking hippies.”

Wish I had come up with that.

And there’s the rub, isn’t it? In a world in which “bipartisanship” means one group getting its way 100% of the time while everyone else must surrender unconditionally, how can filth like Obama go on television and with a straight face deplore partisanship, as though there is any to speak of?

Riiiight, right up until you and the other moderators decide to bully those who dare speak up off of places like FDL. Spare us the hypocrisy and go away, please.

Not a moderator here. And no hypocrite either, unlike you who call this a right wing gatekeeper blog.

I’m surprised you didn’t ask him to visit your blog.

I’m sorry I came so late to this post.

Allison, you are confusing righteous indignation, which is good, with anger, which is not. The difference comes in focusing on actions rather than people. When the opposition does something good, that has to be recognized. Jane Hamsher, for example, joined Grover Norquist on one issue–and was excoriated for it, when she should have been praised. When we turn tribal and refuse to recognize good ideas when they come from the opponent, we weaken ourselves.

The people who are going to decide the great issues of today are the confused, misinformed, self-involved people of the center. They won’t make their decision on which side to join based on position papers, but on whether they feel affinity with the people they meet who have committed to one side or another.

So, yes, we should be forthright. We shouldn’t be afraid to cuss if the situation calls for it. But hating people leads to destruction. Let the right-wing destroy itself with all their hate and anger. All we have to do is hold fast to the truth, and love one another.

Those 14 WI Senators need to leave again and stay away until the recalls are completed. If they are not allowed to vote (an illegal power grab that wouldl do Hitler proud) why be there at all and proivde a qorum for the WI Nazi’s to ram the rest of their criminal budget through?

The invitation is open to everyone. But some people prefer to post only in their comfort zones, rather than tread into areas where they can’t control the situation. Now me, I have no problem going where I don’t control a situation, because it’s more important to get the message out than it is to remain “safe”.

If you’re not a moderator, then explain your attacks on Rusty when he posted his entry about the immorality of not challenging Obama in 2012. And if FDL isn’t a gatekeeper blog, prove it. So far, the actions of the moderating team and its sycophants don’t do anything to dissuade people of the recognition that it is.

What “center”?

You’re so brave. Maybe you should work on your messaging.

My messaging is fine, thank you very much. But thank you for the advice.

Michael, when the demos started in Wisconsin, they were a few thousand people. A lot of people were uninformed, misinformed, confused, or just not willing to sacrifice. But because those demonstrators behaved admirably, they attracted others.

The latest demonstrations have been enormous. But there are still many hundreds of thousands who remain to be convinced.

That’s the center. When they at last become active, change will be irreversible, because people’s hearts will have changed.

The people who are going to decide the great issues of today are the confused, misinformed, self-involved people of the center.

… after 8 years of W and 2 years of Obama, there is not much of a center left in this country. The rich, powerful, and connected are hellbent on fleecing the middle class. I hope you’re right that enough folks will wake up before it’s too late.

That’s a dangerous assumption to make about the level of information people have. if folk were so “misinformed”, as you put it, they wouldn’t have known enough about what the bill does to be concerned about what it will do. The protests wouldn’t have happened, at least not to the degree that they did.

Again, what center? Define it. What is the “center” position on, say, torture? If you can’t define a political center, then don’t bother claiming one exists. Right now there is no such thing as a fixed political center. There are only the left and the extreme right. There’s no middle ground between the two ideologies.