As Al Jazeera reports:
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says that the United States is reaching out to Libyan opposition groups.
We are reaching out to many different Libyans in the east as the revolution moves westward there as well … It is too soon to see how this is going to play out.
A spokesman for the new National Libyan Council, which formed in the eastern city of Benghazi after it was taken by anti-Gaddafi forces, said his group did not want any foreign intervention.
The New York Times fills us in on planning at the White House:
White House, State Department and Pentagon officials held talks with their European and NATO counterparts about how to proceed in imposing flight restrictions over Libya. A senior administration official said Sunday that no decision had been made, and expressed caution that any decision on a no-fly zone would have to be made in consultations with allies.
A diplomat at the United Nations said that any such action would require further debate among the 15 nations of the Security Council, which was unlikely to act unless there was a significant increase in state-sponsored violence in Libya, including the use of aircraft against civilians.
Ban Ki-moon, the United Nations secretary general, was scheduled to meet with President Obama on Monday afternoon at the White House to discuss the deteriorating situation in Libya.
Obama administration officials said Sunday that they were also discussing whether the American military could disrupt communications to prevent Colonel Qaddafi from broadcasting in Libya. In addition, the administration was looking at whether the military could be used to set up a corridor in neighboring Tunisia or Egypt to assist refugees.
“There hasn’t been discussion that I’m aware of related to military intervention beyond that, and a discussion of that nature would have to begin at the U.N.,” a senior administration official said. But, the official added, “I wouldn’t say we’ve ruled anything out, either.”
So, let’s repeat what AJE reported once again:
A spokesman for the new National Libyan Council, which formed in the eastern city of Benghazi after it was taken by anti-Gaddafi forces, said his group did not want any foreign intervention.
[more. . . .]
And the Libyan revolutionary forces are doing very well on their own – when Gaddafi’s minders took western journalists to see all the support they claimed Gaddafi has in the country outside Tripoli, they found this instead:
But when government-paid drivers and minders took visiting journalists on an official tour to visit here Sunday morning, they found a town firmly in rebel hands, where Libyan officials and military units did not even try to enter…
The most striking display of strength was seen here, 30 miles from Colonel Qaddafi’s Tripoli redoubt. Zawiyah is one of several cities near the capital controlled by rebels, who have repulsed repeated attempts by Colonel Qaddafi’s forces to retake them. And the arsenal they displayed helped to explain how the rebels held Zawiyah.
… A few yards away a captured antiaircraft gun fired several deafening salutes into the air, and gleeful residents invited newcomers to clamber aboard one of several army tanks now in rebel hands. Residents said that when Colonel Qaddafi’s forces mounted a deadly assault to retake the city last Thursday — shell holes were visible in the central mosque and ammunition littered the central square — local army units switched sides to join the rebels, as about 2,000 police officers had done the week before.



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Yeah, Oilbomber would love nothing better than to “help” an oil rich nation while he ignores the struggle of the people he “promised” to protect in this country.
What a sad sack excuse of a president.
Check THIS out: Anonymous Joins Madison Protests, Takes Down Koch Bros Website
But the GOP say Obama is incompetent for not loudly supporting the Iranian folks in the street, and now for not doing more to show support for the Libyan folks.
Hard to please the GOP – guess Obama will now have to do another pre-emptive surrender to the GOP position on some topic important to the left.
At least with Bill, Hillary did not have to teach the guy she was with on how to lead. Besides Obama is just not a good student in this area.
obama’s deliberately weak leadership has led to a resurgence of the republican party; just as it was supposed to. he said what he had to say in order to be elected on a wave of desire for a reversal of w’s ‘leadership,’ but once in office, his true allegiances came out in full force. The problems in WI trace directly to obama’s refusal to lead as the nation really wanted and we wind up with w’s policies to the third power.
Sure he is, it’s just not about “How to Make America Strong for Dummies” he’s reading.
It’s the IMF playbook on “How to Take Down a Nation in 12 Easy Steps” ( go to back of book for shortcuts and synopsis)
It’s not Oilbummer who’s beating the war drums. It’s the old PNAC gang itching for more bloodshed.
Read the list of signers. It’s the rogues list of the 9/11 perps.
It is unusual for Anonymous to issue a “threat” before anything actually happens. So far I’ve seen no confirmation of any Koch sites being attacked.
Strange.
This is not about Obama, unless he chooses to jump in where he is not wanted, like the neocons want. It is about the people escaping that madman.
You know … something occurs to me this morning.
US Administrations seem to stay carefully out of even barely commenting on the worst human rights offenses (see China) and genocides (current and past) but they’re all hot and ready to jump in where they are NOT wanted! And make everything worse.
Ignoring requests for help but forcing help on those who don’t want it. They just cannot stay away.
Is that passive-aggressive or psychotic or something crazier?
Yes: That’s along the lines of what I am thinking, too.
Of course the U.S. will use its military in Libya. It has oil.
Could be a fake announcement. Psy-ops. Koch Bros can surely afford that and their own mercenary army. Coming soon to your local cinema.
They hate us for our freedoms, doncha know.
We’ll find out.
Reposting from the previous thread.
An agent for the US was discovered making secret contacts with Al-Qaeda.
Why were John Kerry and Darrell Issa recently in Pakistan?
Putting on my Chomsky hat –
1. Of course we’re going in. Like eCAHN said, there’s oil, and we still operate on a neo-imperial paradigm.
2. We’ll probably cost more lives than we save going in. And the Libyans will probably resist us just as hard as they’re resisting the Qaddafi government. And they’d be right to, seeing as how it’s their country and they already said StayTheFO.
3. The intervention will be sold as preserving “stability” in the region and as a humanitarian mission to help Libya transfer to “democracy”. Which is really just code for making it safe on the ground there for American corporations to go in and rape the people and their resources while having the protection of the American military (see: Iraq).
Interesting times we live in, wouldn’t have it any other way. I’m just glad it’s my generation facing these challenges as young people instead of my parents – the under 40 crowd is much more competent and reality grounded.
After McCAN’T and Kerry suggested intervention, I don’t blame them. The only thing I think the US should do is send aid in the way of food. The reason the US and British Oil people left when it started is because they knew why.
Juan Cole reports that locals are coming into refineries & pumping stations to run them themselves. Ooopsie. Can’t have that. Have to have westerners run them so that Libya doesn’t get the revenues.
Of course we have to intervene with our military, after all we’re so dog gone good at establishing a democracy at the end of a rifle barrel. Look how well Iraq and Afghanistan are doing. After all, Iraq has gone at least 24 hours without a bombing in Baghdad. Nothing like another war for the good old USA.
That is excellent news! Yes, the local should run it and own it, of course.
From teh twitters:
Nonetheless, it appears they have: http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/150064/billionaire_koch_brothers_next_target_of_%22anonymous%22_hacker_group/
Citizen eCAHNomics:
“Of course the U.S. will use its military in Libya.”
I wonder…if you look at Madison this weekend when the local cops in fact defied the request of the governor and glimpses that resistance to continued occupation may be growing in the enlisted ranks of our army (witness Brad Manning et al), I wonder if we might not be seeing the unralveling of the use of the military in its role as security for the corporate mercenary forces that are already over extended. I don’t think Obama can order our military to intevene if the Libyans don’t want ‘em and I don’t think a lot of our soldiers would go if they were tasked to defy the locals.
The AP says AZ Tea Party is spouting they intend to hold the GOP accountable.
Ha! I be they didn’t know that Progressives are going to hold DEMS accountable too.
That’s what they’re scared of. Not having control over everything.
Obviously BP salivation over a deal with Libya is what got the Lockerbie bomber released. He was so sick, you know that he just….disappeared form custody.
That same piece had incorrect info at the bottom about the cheeseheads getting kick out the capitol, which did not happen. I’d verify anything on that page.
Yes! I keep hearing the all the stories about the repatriation of foreigners from Libya – one of the big themes in European news, anyway – and asking (somewhat rhetorically) why are there so many foreigners in the country when Libya has big unemployment problems.
I’m sure it’s all about control.
It didn’t take long for Mrs Bluster to invoke a “Fly with us, and only US” zone over Sheik Howdy Doody Ghadaffi Duck’s oil farm. The cables must be really flying between the colonial powers now that the voting by Libya’s betters has begun.
Good Morning Siun and Firedogs,
Meanwhile, back in Bahrain opposition bloc formally resigns from Parliament in protest of killing protesters (reps are appointed by King/govt) and protesters are blocking access to the Shura Council building
Infantilizing locals, just like they do in the U.S.
Exactly. Key to the multinational class war.
From Jeffrey Rudolf column at Juan Cole this morning.
brilliant! that’s worth another read or two in my mind!
Morning eCAHN,
I read that this AM. Very insightful.
I’d like to believe that. Something like three quarters of new recruit candidates can’t pass the physical requirements for enlistment due to obesity. Obesity is, (ironically), a symptom of crushing poverty. It would be just if the same policies that the now mostly mercenary military imposes for it’s corporate overlords led to the inability of the military to any longer be able to impose those policies.
Failures at being decent human beings don’t make successful local, regional or national leaders either. We’re seeing it in Wisconsin and Washington. A step in ending the pain and the decay of our country from its complete mismanagement means throwing the bums out.
China sends military planes to rescue stranded nationals in Libya
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/china-sends-military-planes-rescue-stranded-nationals-libya-20110228-041141-279.html
Like Norske, I would also like to believe that lots of American soldiers would refuse to deploy to Libya. But they won’t. The U.S. military has been thoroughly infiltrated to the highest levels by a number of imperialist and/or religious fundamentalist ideologies that are all about imposing authority.
I think most of them would happily go, and look forward to using their weapons.
Care2 isn’t the best, but Alternet says the same thing.
I find it odd myself that Anonymous would warn Koch…they’ll just set up protection
And of course the US press thinks the rulers of Bahrain are just peachy, because of course nothing must be allowed to disrupt the flow of cheap oil the US — certainly not the concerns of a few brown-skinned people who talk funny. (/sarcasm)
Just like when Roman citizens got too lazy or poor to fight in the legions and the mercenaries decided why not sack Rome?
I’ve been thinking this may be one of the reasons we can’t get out of these useless military ventures…we can’t the MIC won’t let US
Probably not far from the truth
I wasn’t discussing the possibility that they might refuse, I was discussing the more long term inability to maintain a combat force due to the very policies their MOTU controllers insist they impose and enforce.
Do you think Wisconsin will try to get rid of Walker after this mess? I sure hope so. It seem some republican “moderates” are getting wiggly on the collective bargaining hit.
Of course, it could be a trap to get the democrats back into the state……
Precisely! Glad to see there are some around who read the comments rather than read into them their own thoughts. :)
The largest number of recruits come from Texas.
It would be a mistake not to get rid of Walker and not to deal with his law-flouting enablers.
I’m not sure about enlisted personnel “refusing” to go fight somewhere. Not having been in the military, myself, I’m unsure how plausible that is.
But you make a very good point about the obesity issue with the newer crops of recruits. The military keeps lowering its standards on recruits on all levels: educational, criminal past histories, overt & known mental/emotional instabilities, and now physical health, esp obesity.
Yes, obesity often is an indicator of poverty, as people end being forced to eat a lot of crappy starch/carbs to survive. Plus our agri-food complex is pushing corn sugars on the US population. I have not stats or links, but I’m pretty sure that putting corn-based sweeteners in just about all junk foods is playing a huge role in ratcheting up obesity.
Off that tangent and back to the military: my feeling is that the military eventually just won’t be able to continue fighting and fighting bc it won’t have people fit enough to be spread so thin across the globe.
The overreach of the empire is nigh…..
No sh#t! I am not saying any of this is right. I have been noticing the sacking being done within the country by its “defenders” that are actually mercs. We can stop war. Part of doing that means marginalizing the mercs.
So does anyone know what’s happening in Tripoli?
The reason for asking is if it isn’t urgent to stop Qaddafi’s excesses in Tripoli anymore, then doing nothing is easily an option and the best option. If not, then we’re back at the question of what should be done. And the people who best decide what’s needed are the people in Tripoli facing the man who’s being accused of committing crimes against humanity against them, in real time.
I checked the humanitarian assessment groups this morning, and AFAIK, none have been able to get into Tripoli to assess yet. Anyone seen any different?
I took a taxi ride with someone originally from Iraq. FWIW, he claimed that the Saudi military was involved in killing the demonstrators in Bahrain, which he felt was being engineered/asked for by the USA. I don’t know if there’s anything out there about this; if it’s real; or just gossipy rumors.
Okay WTF? When did I ever say or imply that anybody would “refuse to fight”? I’ve read and re-read my comment and I never said that. I tried to express my opinion that they would be too ill or out of shape to fight, not that the ones currently in would refuse.
Exactly. Very apt. We’re pretty much in deep doo-doo land these days.
I’m as worried about what Clinton is saying to the opposition she’s ‘reaching out to’.
Sorry Margaret, I wasn’t implying that *you* said that about the military personnel “refusing to fight.” I was conflating my response to you & I think what Norske said.
My main thread in my response to you was about obesity in the military eventually causing big problems for the PTB.
The public warning is to garner attention (and to alert the public to which Koch brands to boycott), and to make sure it’s reported accurately. But the corporate media in the US won’t mention it as they don’t want to draw any more attention to the role of Koch in American politics and business, as Koch (through its many brand names like Dixie et al) is a big advertiser in media at all levels.
Google “anonymous koch” and you’ll see that the first page of links almost all belong to internet-based outfits like FDL, Raw Story, and TPM; the one traditional-media outfit covering this is Forbes, and only via its blog — in other words, the folks who only get their news from radio, TV, papers/magazines, or their ISP portals will never see this.
But which people in Tripoli?
Almost all the spokespeople on AJ have been expats (think Chalabi) and it’s impossible to verify who the rare phone call from Tripoli might be & what the caller’s agenda might be.
IOW, I would be suspicious about calls coming from inside for outside help on first principles. Too easy to manipulate. Not to mention the historic record of outside help almost always resulting in much greater levels of violence & casualties than the internal brutalities themselves are causing.
Walker can’t be recalled until he’s been in office for a year, but the groundwork is being laid to start collecting signatures once January 2012 rolls around. In the meantime, there are eight vulnerable Republican state senators who are eligible to be recalled right now, and plans to recall them are far advanced. In the meantime, there’s a push to defeat the Republican Chief Justice of the WI Supreme Court in the election that’s just five weeks from now; if that succeeds, the Democrats will have a 4-3 advantage on the court. Also, there are three open Assembly seats (Walker picked their occupants to serve in his cabinet), and the Democrats plan to hotly contest each one of those.
Not trying to start any shit here, honestly but the first line of your comment was:
The word refusing is in quotes and it’s not accurate because I never said or implied than anybody would “refuse” to fight. one_outer did @ 37, not me @ 34.
But it sure is great distraction from what’s going on in the US,whether he wants to do it or not
Well…scotch THAT then cause all they’ve been doing is protecting lawbreakers since O was inaugurated
You’re beginning to sound like Pravda and Hugo Chavez.
The French landed two humanitarian aid planes with docs, nurses, and supplies near Mizurata. Rebel forces shot down a plane that was bombing radio towers (they mean business). Great Britain revoked the diplomatic status of the Gadaffi family, is freezing assets.
Ondelette, you’ve been very concerned about the Africans in Libya being mistaken for Gadaffi’s mercenearies. Here’d video about that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVpW0mfi40A&feature=player_embedded
China and Russia voted with either the SC or the HRC to investigate crimes against the Libyan people. That’s big.
Onitgoes – There were a lot of reports from within Bahrain that Saudis were used or were going to be used. None were confirmed so I personally have no idea. It was certainly a fear of the protesters that the King would call in a significant Saudi presence esp if the Bahraini forces refused to take on the protesters …
Could democracy be coming…to the USA?????
Great info. Thanks
From this morning’s Glenzilla. Guess which country insisted on that clause.
All bets are really really off on this. Our downtrodden and abused young people (if not physically, mentally abused) in the military are no more enslaved than were the young people of all of these rebellions around the world, and in our own country. Far from producing a compliant underclass which knows no other way than the way of the oligarchs, what is produced instead is an awareness of injustice that is unstoppable.
Even in New Zealand where the corruption isn’t as evident (but is there, you may be sure)sixteen thousand young people turned out to reclaim Christchurch, and their voiced slogan was that they were simply showing their unity with the young folk around the world who have the energy to come out on the streets and make things better.
The horrible faces are reappearing on our tv screens – Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wofowitz, Powell. Don’t they look OLD???? Don’t they look like MONSTERS???
Don’t try messing with Libya, you idiots and idiots-in-waiting. The whole house of cards you’ve built will come toppling down, no matter what you do. Your geese are cooked.
Maybe that’s why starving the poor looks like a good option to them. Except the poor will be sick then as well, but hey! can’t have everything………
Look at the Republcian governor distribution from 2010:
File:United States Governors map.svg
Yeah and it seems Spain isn’t quite as scared of the US as it was when Obama “persuaded” them to call of the dogs on these MFers
Actually eCahn is giving wise advice. The calls from inside Libya are often heartbreaking and stir up our emotions but we have to be very careful about that. Remember that Arabic leaders yesterday called for a set of actions but did NOT invite the US or NATO to participate. The Islamic scholars inside Tripoli said the same and now the people’s govt based in Benghazi also says the same.
Thinking that the right kind of aid from outside either must be military or must be from the US is a mistake. Our hands are so vey bloody across the Middle East and our motives clearly not pure – let’s let the people who are fighting Gadaffi decide what they need and from where. That’s the point – it’s their country and they get to decide.
Well, that’s me. I’m not as smart as some around here! ;^)
Well, yeah. I was addressing Norske’s original idea about refusal that you were commenting on.
I agree that in the long term maintaining a proper military force to do the bidding of the MOTU is a challenge for the corporatists. I’d argue, though, that it is at least a decade away from being a real problem for them. Enough Americans are propagandized enough to keep enough recruits coming in to keep it going for quite a while longer.
Now, there’s certainly an argument to be made that the current overextension of forces might be presenting a mission capability problem because of deterioration of the force through repeated tours of duty. If there is a problem in the short term that problem is the depletion of forces at hand through repeated war-making, not a problem of recruitment because of moral objections to U.S. terrorism.
There have been other groups receiving phone calls. UNHCR has been receiving phone calls from asylees within all parts of Libya, because they’ve been monitoring them. Libyan Red Crescent is functioning, and has been communicating with both ICRC and with MSF. That is where some of the casualty reports as well as some of the reports of IHL violations are coming from. UNWFP is functioning minimally and is the source of reports on food and water shortages. The defecting troops are bringing some of the IHL violation stories as are the 100,000 fleeing refugees.
Whether we should do this or that is another matter, but denying that there have been any violations of IHL or IHRL at this point is just propaganda. The question is whether, with Qaddafi weakened and no new reports this morning, they are still going on.
Again I apologize for what looks like an attribution to what you didn’t say. That wasn’t my intention, Margaret, as I stated previously. It’s just the way I blog sometimes. In no way do I wish to appear to be mis-quoting what you said. As stated, I somewhat conflated a couple of different thoughts from different posts.
I agree: YOU never said that about military personnel. I agree completely that wasn’t what you said or implied. It was my mistake, and I take full responsibility for it.
I’d like to believe that. I’d like to have a high level of faith in my twentysomething peers – and I certainly have a lot more faith in them than our parents.
BUT…until we see Americans rejecting corporate propaganda en masse, I’ll continue to be skeptical. I’ll believe that there is a moral conscience in the American military and those that are of a disposition to join when I see a little evidence of it.
You’re absolutely right that there are a lot of reliable reports of bloodshed and horrid conditions inside Libya.
Let’s support ICRC, MSF and other groups – but be very wary as the US starts to gear up for military action.
Thanks for weighing in, Siun. The taxi driver was in SoCal and said he was a long-time USA citizen. I asked him where he got his info about the Saudi military, and he said that it was gossip around the ME community. However, he *claimed* to feel “very confident” about the veracity of the rumor. So, very very unconfirmed and very gossipy, but I felt that this person was on the up & up and just reporting from sources that *he* trusts. It certainly *sounds* plausible, but it is a rumor.
Thanks Siun.
I had decided not to respond bc I thought the record speaks for itself, and slurs on me are irrelevant. It’s not about me, it’s about what’s best for the Libyans.
I also remember stories about Saddam Hussein unplugging preemie units in Kuwaiti hospitals that made it all the way into the halls of U.S. congress. Completely bogus as it turned out.
Bogus reports from ‘inside’ are particularly invidious when it comes to the spook business. Curveball being a recent example. But Saddam’s Bombmaker, a full-length book by Khidhir Hamza, while a raucous & fun read, I found less than credible. Even for vetters trying to do their jobs, it is very difficult to figure out whether actual reports are valid or bogus. There are just so many agendas going on.
Egad, that map is *frightening.*
Starving the poor certainly seems to be goal of the MOTU.
The corn-syrup sweatener thing is coming out of USA BigAg, who makes a lot of money from it, I’m guessing. No links but go read your food packaging and just see how much of it has corn syrup in it.
I believe the heavy-duty use of corn syrup began about 2 decades ago and increased in intensity over that period. During a similar time-period obesity concommitantly rose in this nation (and elsewhere).
I have a very part-time job in the weight-loss industry, and I can tell you that it’s pretty frightening anymore how much a significant minority of our population weighs. I don’t care what people look like; I’m talking about basic health issues. It’s scary how many people come in anymore weighing well over 300 pounds. That used to be very unusual not that long ago. Now we see a lot, plus it’s not unusual for people to come in weighing over 600 pounds, and we have to use special scales to weigh them.
it’s very sad, but it also ends up costing a big bundle in the health care industry… but I think that’s ALSO part of the goal… it makes the MOTU rich to have a sick population.
Sorry if I seemed over the top. That wasn’t my intention. I just feel like I have to correct these things as soon as they crop up or the next thing you know, people will think that I suggested that enlisted persons would refuse orders to fight and that, as far as I’m concerned, is probably the least likely thing to happen. I’d like to believe that some or most won’t fire on American demonstrators but history would say that is wrong too.
Good morning, Siun and everyone else.
Siun, yours is the place to be.
Great, fabulous, and wonderfully insightful, honest, and thoughtful comments.
DW
Understood, and you’re spot on to correct the record.
I wouldn’t count on the military or the Nat’l Guard to walk away from what they’re ordered to do. They might refuse (as has happened) or they might fight on the crowd (as has happened).
I wasn’t criticizing whether or not to give US military aid, I was criticizing eCAHNomics blather about whether or not there were genuine calls from within Libya about genuine atrocities committed by the Qaddafi regime. There are. Multiple international monitoring groups are satisfied of them but don’t have what they need for full monitoring, because they need access. The very fact that they don’t have access is in itself a violation of IHL and IHRL.
It’s easy to take some other country’s problems and plug it into some model of U.S. Oil Imperialism and Voilà! Explanation simple! But real life isn’t that way and real people end up dead, or walking half way across Africa. It’s no more right to plug it into the simple stupid of Noam Chomsky than the simple stupid they’re using at the State Department.
For me, this is a humanitarian crisis right now. That’s my role right now. It might be very immediate, it might be very small, it might not have the grand game vision of “Glenzilla” and his perpetual focus on something other than the very real people dying or walking the length of Africa, but that’s my role. Sorry.
I know: sick, ignorant, poor and scared throw in some twisted religion and there’s recipe for disaster. and Obama just on TEEVEE talking about cutting social programs.
Medicaid, Medicare and the like along with LIHEAP…but making sure to include fair taxation after passing the Bush tax cuts.
Truly these days it’s quite hard for citizens to *think clearly.* They are ill-fed with crappy “food,” and given lousy “educations,” and then get a steady diet of crummy faked “religion” and facist fack “nooz” in the media.
You can’t think clearly if you’re ill-fed and esp if you’re way overweight and out of shape. I think it all ties together to keep the populace dumbed down, scared and too out of it to figure out how to change their situation.
The problem is that – as eCAHN notes – genuine humanitarian crises are too often used as a cover for imperialist actions. I know of no one – esp including eCahn – who questions that there is a genuine humanitarian crisis in Libya but we need to be careful about how that reality gets manipulated for non-humanitarian goals.
Again, I encourage everyone to support the Red Crescent and Doctors without Borders – they both have donation pages so let’s use them.
Hillary just spoke from Geneva; Al Jazeera quotes:
“Timestamp:
6:50pm In the Q&A section of the press conference now.
Clinton says a “no-fly zone is an option we are actively considering, I discussed it today with allies and partners”.
She also said that on the matter of additional measures, discussions are focussed on how “we could keep the pressure on the Gaddafi regime without harming the Libyan people”.
Timestamp:
6:52pm Asked whether a repositioning of US naval assets in the Mediterranean indicates that a military response is imminent, Secretary Clinton responds in the negative. She says the military assets were in place for humanitarian and evacuation support, including possible rescue missions.
Al Jazeera’s Patty Culhane in Washington DC points out that the rhetoric regarding a no-fly zone has moved into “active consideration”, as opposed to “discussing”.
Timestamp:
6:47pm Secretary Clinton’s remarks appear to largely be repetition of what she said about two hours ago in front of the UN Human Rights Council.
She also pointed out that the US was concerned about possible disruptions to oil distribution networks.
Timestamp:
6:45pm Clinton says the US will send expert teams
Earlier, 6:12pm The US military says that is repositioning its forces in the area around Libya in order to be able to provide “flexibility [and] options”, Reuters news agency has reported.
The general opinion that has been reported is that most Libyans want someone to intercept any flights of foreign mercenaries into the country from other nations. Gaddafi is using mercenaries to backfill the loss of his military.
And absolutely no one wants to see US boots on the ground of Libya (except maybe Joe Lieberman and John McCain). Lawrence Wilkerson, Colin Powell’s aide, interviewed on AJE treated Lieberman with the contempt he deserves and wrote off McCain as out-of-touch.
What the US strategy seems to be is to argue and pressure for political openness. And they are betting on the monarchs – Hamad ibn Isa Al Khalifa, Abdullah, Mohammed – to be able to manage a transition to an extremely limited constitutional monarchy on the model of the Scandinavian countries. We will see if they can move fast enough.
Where things are confused, such as Yemen and Algeria, they are holding back. It will be interesting to see what happens in Iraq; Maliki tried yesterday to get ahead of events by calling early district and provincial elections. And they are intensifying calls for openness in Iran, even as Ahmedinejad has two leaders of the Green Revolution under house arrest at a “safe house”.
One interesting question is what happens when Afghanis tired of war desert the Taliban strategy and take to the streets of Kabul with demands that Karzai step down and that a government of free and fair elections, absence of corruption, and an end to repression take its place. That would put the US in the predicament of having to decide what it wants out of Afghanistan.
Finally, when will democracy come back to the United States? The patient and disciplined actions of the folks inside the people’s house in Madison are encouraging. But the awareness of how public employee labor standards affect private employee labor standards, and the awareness of how union labor standards affect non-union labor standards, has not yet seeped into the consciousness of most American workers.
But it is clear who the Tea Party really is at heart–cash-strapped small business owners who want to continue to screw over their workers.
Folks should note that all the Libyan resistance groups on twitter are sending continous tweets that they do not want foreign intervention … meanwhile the Senate repubicans are pushing – also on twitter – for Obama to do something.
This is moving fast and is very dangerous.
Why are you calling out eCAHN? eCHAN and Siun and myself are right to be worrying about the machinations of the U.S. government and they MOTU bosses. You’re compartmentalizing this as ONLY “a humanitarian crisis” and willfully ignoring looking a few steps ahead in the bigger picture, probably to avoid uncomfortable truths about the way the global economic and political system works. That’s an explicit de-politicization of an explicity political crisis.
Willful ignorance of the geo-political and economic factors and fights that will emerge from this gives cover to the rich and powerful to exploit the situation. Ignoring the politics of oil so you can hide behind a more corporate friendly frame of “humanitarian crisis” is what gives the PTB the political cover to impose their will on Libya.
I accept your apology for being part of the problem in the bigger picture that you refuse to deal with.
Edit: I posted this before I saw Siun’s excellent succinct response along the same lines.
And don’t call Chomsky’s points “simple stupid”. Stick to us – you can’t handle him.
Not by me. And just as too often, humanitarian crises can be dismissed because someone is sure that any concern over them is just cover for an imperialist action, as eCAHN just did. Or just because the Oscars are more important that 100,000 refugees fleeing with health, food and water shortages and bullets haling down from — Cote D’Ivoire since last Sunday. Oops.
Besides, the Great Glenzilla has now issued a correction. There is no language exempting mercenaries from prosecution by the ICC, only exempting peacekeeping forces.
Pretty much, as well as some who are more-or-less towards being upper middle class but losing ground, so they think that tax cuts for the excessively wealthy will somehow magnificently benefit *them.* Forget about anyone else. I know some of these types of Tea Baggers – most of them over-extended themselves pre-2008 with huge homes (often paying 100s of thousand$ to do fancy big-time “upgrading” on their salubrious gated homes) that are now upside down, plus leading very extravagent lifestyles (owning several fancy expensive cars, wearing very expensive clothes, taking numerous expensive overseas vacations every year, belonging to the expensive country club, sending kids to expensive private schools, expensive plastic surgery, etc).
These types would be mostly “ok” if they downgraded their lifestyles even a little, but it has been “educational” to watch some of these people cling and grasp after their ever-less-affordable lifestyles… and whine and cry about poor people, while they struggle to pay their high annual country club fees.
My heart bleeds for them… /s
But this is another cohort of the Tea Party, who thinks tax cuts are the bees knees, and they *hate* public sector workers now bc RushGlennSarah carefully taught them that maybe these dreaded dirty govt workers are getting somehow a “better deal” than they are… and so on.
Caricature – Zombie Gaddafi – http://www.flickr.com/photos/donkeyhotey/5486123042/
Zombie Dictator lurching toward his inevitable disintegration.
Thanks for the update, Siun. That has been my concern over the weekend. The reporting that I heard was that Libyans don’t want foreign intervention. Yet I fear that the USA will feel compelled to do so. When I heard about Liberman & McCain: egad!
My concern, too, is that gas at the pumps took a huge jump this weekend. I realize that has a lot to do with speculation, but I’m concerned that the PTB will *also* use artifically inflated gas prices as an “excuse” for invading Libya… and a lot of our population will go along with it.
That is good news as the people of the USA their government and their soldiers have murdered enough of we Arabs while “helping” already.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
And introducing the American military who have demonstrated repeatedly their utter disregard for civilian life will exacerbate it greatly.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
Nobody on this thread is dismissing the humanitarian crisis aspect of the Libyan situation. It’s horrible. But – the best thing we can do is leave Libyans to work it out for themselves. If the U.S. really wants to help they’ll airlift food, water and medical supplies to the opposition controlled areas and STFO. As bad as the humanitarian crisis is foreign involvement is highly, highly likely to only exacerbate the problem. Also, there is nobody on earth that is more committed or invested in ameliorating the humanitarian crisis than a Libyan.
Their country, their work, their solutions. Without us. Ever. No matter how bad the humanitarian situation gets unless they ask us to come.
I certainly can. He’s been oversimplifying foreign policy since the 1980s and linguistics since before that. It was Montaigne who said you can build your stilts as high as you like, you still have to sit on your ass.
Hear! Hear!
I didn’t advocate introducing American military. I advocated not dissing reports of humanitarian crisis, and taking them seriously.
Apologist…
Actually, you know what? Money talks in this situation. The U.S. would be best off sending hard cold cash to Tunisia, Egypt, and the UNHCR, for starters. They all need money to deal with the crisis, and they need it yesterday.
It’s not like Rand Paul or the Koch Brothers are going to pay for all those refugees.
Nobody is dismissing those reports least of all me. I know from direct personal experience what it is like to be in a city under siege. I also know what it is like to live in a country undergoing a civil war.
You know as well as I do that that your government and its military are perfectly capable of seizing “humanitarian concern” as pretext for military intervention.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
I also know that people in my country are perfectly capable of seizing on the pretext of my government looking for an excuse, and using it to yell “wag the dog” and demand that we ignore humanitarian crises when we shouldn’t. Be extremely careful what you wish for. Accurate portrayal of facts is the best. No exaggerations in favor of intervention, no exaggerations against humanitarian aid.
Libyan oil is currently “raped” by BP and others- with little going to the Libyan “state/people” – so if we go in it would be to replace BP with a “US” oil company – as if there is an oil company that feels any loyalty to the US. Plus the Brits will ask us for a favor after we go in – and we will then restore the same contracts on the same “rape the people terms” to BP and the prior “rapists”.
Your country’s record in this region is barbaric. In my country alone you Americans are responsible for the wholesale slaughter of civilians. You Americans are responsible for creating a society with more than one million widows and 5 million orphans.
Then there is how your country behaved during the last war against the people of Lebanon and the current one against the Palestinians in Gaza, and spare me please the pretence that there is any difference between America and Israel when it comes to slaughtering Arabs, there isn’t.
America’s record in the Middle East and North Africa is one of repeated blood-soaked hysterically violent rampages against civilians.
Given your country’s record of barbarism in this region what on earth makes you think that anyone will trust you this time?
I am being extremely careful what I wish for. I wish for the various uprisings throughout this region to succeed because their success is the best possible chance of driving your country, your “values”, your viciously exploitative corporations, your pack of war criminal soldiers and their enabler diplomats back to where they came from, leaving us the freedom to start to undo the damage your country has been doing here for generations.
All the reports from Libya are of the people fighting the Qhatafi regime saying they do not want foreign intervention.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
Good point re: money.
Instead of just giving money, though, in an ideal world the rebels would socialize the oil production and then we would pay them for it without sending our own companies in. Pay Libyans for Libyan oil, without a foreign corporate interlocutor. An ideal world, alas.
not sure of the Roman reference – I don’t recall a mercenary army turning on Rome – the Goths were chased into Roman territory and given protection in return for joining the army – but dumped on to the point the population rebelled and some of those in the Army did indeed form a Goth peoples army that took Rome – and was given the south of France as a homeland as a reward for not killing everyone.
But after 410 everyone sacked Rome whenever they wanted it seemed – not aware of a specific army that turned on the state – not that it didn’t happen – I just do not recall and am too lazy to research.
Oh. And you’ve chosen me to be responsible for that because I said I was worried about the humanitarian crisis, not the big picture? The big picture being presented here is oil and U.S. imperialism. You are now presenting a big picture of U.S. imperialism in your country. I don’t know where you are from, but I will accept your description for it. I fail to see how my focus on humanitarian crisis and relief singles me out as an apologist or makes me singularly responsible when I have not advocated American military action in Libya, I have only argued against somebody who was advocating the position that all the calls from within Tripoli alleging atrocity were American plants. I also have told you that my country also fails to act when needed, which is the truth.
My country’s record to the South, which is to say, in the continent in which Libya is located, rather than that which Palestine is located, also includes ignoring a major war of 5 million dead, and a genocide of 1 million people, and allowing atrocities committed by corporations, a lot of which could have been prevented by using its influence at the United Nations and against U.S. corporations. It totally dwarfs what has happened in Palestine in the same time period, but you would never know that for the coverage on American news, European news, or even Al Jazeera, would you?
The reports you are hearing are not the ones I want to hear. But I don’t think I’ve heard any that would indicate that the U.S. should intervene. Like I said, I’m not supporting U.S. intervention. I’m actually demanding humanitarian access at this point, and asking what is happening in Tripoli. I will say that decisions on whether, say, an Arab led force should intervene should depend on people in Tripoli, not rebel forces in Benghazi. The goal of any foreign intervention per the resolution, is stopping the wanton killing of civilians, not aiding one side or the other.
If you want to blame me personally for whatever you want to blame me for, because I do humanitarian work at the very lowly level at which I do it, go ahead. Somebody does have to do it. If you think it incurs upon me a responsibility to you for all the widows and orphans in your country to try to help people in these crises, so be it. Gladly accept your blame, because I’ll be damned if I’m going to not do what I do because of you.
I am totally on your side in this and agree with your points – and even with Chomsky’s rather good thought
But as to “don’t call Chomsky’s points “simple stupid”….you can’t handle him” I had to laugh out loud LOL! Since the 70′s he has been speaking frequently on campus at MIT – and has been called out by me (once) and by many many others where he was wrong on facts and using poor logic (much – indeed most – of what he does is excellent – but not always). The amusing part was his response of denying that he had said what he said, and that those that disagreed with the logic mis-understood his logic (which he then restates but alas it is a different logic). He never admits error – not even in the famous Nazi lover that he defended – ultimately giving up the incorrect facts and assertions (except he restates them if the group is deemed anti-Israel enough so that they will fly) – but always claiming an “unfair denial of freedom of speech” – as if a book has some rights to being treated as truth just because stupid evil lying haters of Jews have speech rights.
I grant you he will throw a boat load of “facts” out in any conversation – and his logic is often better than most of his peers – but there are times his “facts” are not facts and his logic is biased by his desire to get to a given conclusion, but those speaking with him may not have time to check things out – and then he is off on another topic :-)
All in all, a great mind, fun to listen to – but I believe most at FDL can “handle” him.
I am Iraki living in Irak I spend a lot of my time doing humanitarian
work.
and
I have not, nowhere in what I have written have I blamed you personally. But thank you for implicitly accepting how weak your argument is by immediately stooping to a reverse ad hominem.
Why not just say the Rwandan genocide and have done?
You certainly would know what is going on in Africa if you watched Al-Jazeera’s Arabic news coverage. The fact that your country’s population accept inferior news coverage from the likes of CNN is a problem for you Americans to fix. You won’t fix it by assuming that everyone else’s news providers are as bad as yours.
The point I am making is very simple. When it comes to “humanitarian intervention” your country’s record is one of using “humanitarian issues” as nothing more than a cynical smokescreen for subjugation of the peoples of this region.
Ah yes the standard “oh but we meant well” excuse. The big difference between Arabs such as myself and westerners such as you is that we look at actions and their effects not intentions.
The effect of any foreign intervention will most likely be to make matters far worse. Far far far worse if the intervention is American, or American led.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
I’m curious as to country you are from. Libyan deaths of half the eastern population during Italian colonial rule give the words the survivors say some heft.
But claims of a million deaths caused by Americans fail the “history” test unless you are using the G. H . Bush stopping of chlorine for sanitation of water in the embargo of Iraq and the increase in Iraqi deaths afterwards (a position that the GOP and US media screamed had to be continued under Clinton – and then G W Bush made it 10 times worse with the destruction of what sanitation that remained – never rebuilding it despite those billions given US corporation for that task).
The numbers of direct and indirect dead is a little above 100,000 with much of that Sunni of Shia and Shia on Sunni.
No number of dead is good – but you are repeating what appears to be a Friday prayers exaggeration – and it does not get respect at FDL. You can find better numbers (and numbers a bit higher than my 100,000) in various UN reports – it is better to quote them.
curious – this post I totally agree with – so it must be great logic! Welcome to FDL. :-)
Good response, ondelette. It’s just a little easier to see this academically, I think, and remove ourselves to the Big Picture.
I do wonder if some nations didn’t want the US so involved in the aid planes, therefore chose the French. I’m watching developments at the Guardian, which says 2 aircraft carriers are moving closer to Libya, but the Pentagon claims it doesn’t mean military intervention.
Gotta get some sleep; here’s the link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/28/gaddafi-libya-live-blog
Also, it seems detractors claim that Human Rights Watch is too close to American Policy; I thought they were fantastic in Egypt. They also report killings, and plenty of them.
The march on Tripoli is said to be some days in the future, as rebel forces are circling in a long arc around Gadaffi’s forces.
Large crowds are in Cairo.
Greetings and Peace unto you Mohammed, my brother in humanity.
I saw about the injuries to Nur this weekend in Siun’s diary on the postponement of the “lessons” this weekend. Please convey to her (and others) that our thoughts and prayers are with you all.
You said, “your “values”, your viciously exploitative corporations,…” you did not say, “your country’s…” They are not my “values”. I didn’t implicitly accept anything. You leveled the accusation, I rebutted it.
Well, because I didn’t just mean the Rwandan genocide. If that’s the coverage you got on Al Jazeera, it was piss poor. But thanks for playing.
Ah. Since you do, in fact, do humanitarian work yourself, you have no business condemning someone who does it. I was talking about humanitarian work as in the work provided during humanitarian crisis. You were talking about something else. I don’t accept your glissade into another definition or your condemnation. Take it to someone who has actually misused the term, cowboy.
Really? Well, one difference between me and you is that I was willing to admit I didn’t know you and didn’t know which country you were from in the previous post, and you are willing to decide both what I believe in and what I think and how I look at actions and effects and intentions without the cumbersome necessity of knowing me from Adam. The quote you took of mine above is actually about holding the parties external to Libya to the language of the resolution and being strict about not intervening except under the conditions for which they have voted to intervene. Meaning no ulterior motives are acceptable. Which is in fact what I believe. Maybe you should have asked me first. Because maybe another difference is that you really don’t know me very well just because you are an Arab and I am a Westerner.
Mohammed: as an American who agrees with you, I am very encouraged by your assessment of these possible outcomes. Thank you for being here. Stay well.
Ana Iraki.
Thank you for your welcome in fact I and others in the “Guides” have been here for some years :-)
Your own government admits to more than one million widows and somewhere between 4½-5 million orphans. As does the green zone government. These figures are supporting evidence for the casualty estimates in excess of a million as 5 is a rather small family here.
I agree with you as to Libyan history, it says much to Qhataffi’s character that he allied himself to an Italian government containing the political heirs of the movement responsible for those wars in Libya.
Mohammed ibn Laith.
Oops. This was supposed to be a reply to Mohammed ibn Laith at comment #111
Truly your arrogance and deliberate incomprehension are breathtaking. I have every business condemning actions the effect of which is to make a bad situation far worse.
Mohammed Ibn Laith.
May I offer a clue:
http://gorillasguides.com/2007/02/10/what-will-we-talk-about-today-you-and-i/
and also:
Greetings and peace to you also my brother. She is well, happily her attackers did not do anything worse than mildly concuss her, my aunt ordered 48 hours bedrest as a precaution.
I admire her greatly. It is very typical of her that she intervened to protect her attackers from severe harm by outraged witnesses to their attack.
I will be certain to pass on these greetings.
Mohammed Ibn Laith.
Thank you and may I return your kind wishes for my health. :-)
Mohammed Ibn Laith
Yes, it is humbling to hear of her response to her attackers. Few of us are able to put into practice the words of Jesus and it is heartening to see them in operation.
Humanitarian work makes a bad situation far worse? Which part? Treating wounds? Dispensing food and water? Clothing and sheltering refugees? Getting government asylum processes started? Tracing? Arranging safe passage? Disseminating human rights information? Immunization? Development aid? First aid?
Oh, yeah. Much worse. Yeah. Breathtaking. Keep condemning.
ondelette, with all due respect, Mohammed knows what he is talking about in these situations. The US government uses “humanitarian assistance” as the cover for a lot of bad acts.
Please read the link that siun posted at #121 and learn about how US “humanitarians” have worked before continuing to embarrass yourself
Keep this up. Your deliberate falsehoods by twisting what I wrote is providing me with very useful material to use in the indoctrination classes I run.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
By no means.
Ondelette’s typical arrogance and lack of integrity in making her (or perhaps his but I feel the “ette” ending is a usage of the French feminine ending) arguments is very useful to me. All I have to do is point at the lack of intellectual and moral integrity of the tactics used.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
I’m not buying. I don’t care what the U.S. government twists and doesn’t twist. I’m not the U.S. government, I’m somebody who does humanitarian work, and I don’t have to take it from somebody who’s seen some indoctrination or something in some other context some other place the term misused or misshapen, when he admits himself he knows what it really means and does the work himself and so knows exactly what I mean by it and what it is that I do and that what I do has nothing to do with the terms he’s twisting them into.
If he needs a target to practice on, that’s his problem. I’m not his target practice. And I don’t have to take a lot of his insults just because on balance he’s a good person and on balance he’s from Iraq and I’m from America, and this and that and I have to understand and blah blah blah.
I’m not saying any deliberate falsehoods. I’m also not going to get any more revealing about myself. So I’m going to repeat: humanitarian work is the list of things I just gave, and that’s what I meant by it, and Mohammed Ibn Laith can probably add to it, as I can, but I won’t, and we can all think of organizations and NGOs and whatever that do such work and probably that’s what I’m talking about. I’m not going any further than that, but I’m not at all going to back down from that and he apologize with the idea that such things are deliberate falsehoods and propaganda and about some kind of imperialism. They are not.
No, I’m not reading anything. I do not need to have my work explained to me, I’ve been doing it for almost a decade now. It has nothing to do with imperialism and everything to do with humanitarian aid, even though it’s necessarily very limited because of how such things are implemented exactly because we are so careful to make sure that it doesn’t have undesirable impact. The notion of yours or his that I would be unaware of all that is really laughable. We spend hours on it in training. But I’m not the government. We aren’t the distorters or falsehooders or propagandists. And I am really very offended to have been so accused. Anonymity, which I have zero choice about, prevents me from carrying this any further to say why. You people.
But that’s the thing. We aren’t talking about NGOs – we’re talking about the US military setting up to intervene once again in a country where they are not wanted under the guise of “humanitarian aid”
And you do yourself no favors in thinking you don’t have to read siun’s link because you know everything about what Mohammed is speaking of. Truly an unwarranted level of arrogance
The arrogance is all yours. Mohammed assumed he knew everything abut me. He knew nothing. Now you want me to go learn abgout him? No. He can apologize first.
That is because Mohammed has engaged and had discussions with many others exhibiting the same type of attitude that you have shown – lecturing him on what the US government is doing when it says it is being “humanitarian” and “protecting the rights” of people in Irak/Afghanistan/Libya yet these same people always claim that the government doesn’t really represent them when it is pointed out all the people those “humanitarians” have killed
And it is that reckless arrogance that I am condemning. They will use it as an excuse to try to grind the peoples of the Middle East yet further into the dust. But you don’t care about that.
To Hell with you.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
Apparently, your command of English doesn’t permit you to correctly interpret that sentence. What it means is that I don’t care what you say they twist or don’t twist. It doesn’t mean that I don’t care if they twist things or not. Why don’t you try backing down? The first thing I saw of you, regardless of all the good things others say of you here, was the soles of your shoes. How do you think I feel about you?
It appears that neither of us is going to get what we want, anyway. I’m not going to get the access I’m demanding, you’re not going to get your non-intervention. The two sides are descending into civil war and the U.S. and other powers are positioning to intervene:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/world/africa/01unrest.html
God help the people of Libya.
You sound as if you are not really interested in learning something today from someone who could show you something. Mohammed has first hand experience with the US government actions and we are all representing the government no matter how much we individually may decry their actions
I might be, but the context is all wrong. The pretext is that we’re having this argument because I am ignorant of the twisted meanings of the words humanitarian intervention or the misuses of “humanitarian aid”. I am not. I’m very well aware of them. There are unfortunately no other words to define the genuine article, so it isn’t allowable on yours or Mohammed Ibn Laith’s part to assume that anyone using the term humanitarian aid is using it disingenuously.
Nor is Mohammed Ibn Laith ignorant of my position, he just wants a punching bag. If I demanded that you go learn something, before talking to me about my point of view, you’d be offended too. Do you want me to point you to a document that defines humanitarianism? I can, there’s one on the ICRC website. I don’t think you’d find that to be a nice thing for me to do, you’d find it “arrogant” or perhaps, “breathtakingly arrogant” on my part.
Read. The. Link. Siun. Posted.
Read about how Mohammed as a 16/17 year old found his father’s body after a US shelling. Read about how the Army didn’t react and help in any way. Then know that Mohammed was shot at by US troops as he tried to get his brother to a hospital after the younger brother had also been critically injured by a later US shelling. (he also died)
Then know that Mohammed himself is recovering from being shot while protecting Iraki Christians going to worship on a Sunday a few weeks ago.
Then come back and tell us how he doesn’t know what he is talking about when he discusses the effects of US military “humanitarian” interventions
May Allah help them indeed, as to what somebody with your attitudes thinks of me … try to imagine how little I care.
Mohammed Ibn Laith.
Mohammed I do apologize for the willful obtuseness of some of my fellow countrymen
Thank you for your persistence but I fear you are wasting your time, I have met plenty of people like this so absolutely sure that they know best. Life is too short ….
Mohammed Ibn Laith
No need they are responsible for it themselves :-).
Mohammed Ibn Laith.
When I heard the bomb explode last Saturday the first thing I did was telephone my father. But there was no reply. Again and again and again I tried to phone him. My fingers hurt I stabbed them onto the buttons on my phone so hard. I fell onto the floor and prayed please let him not be dead. Please let it be that he died quick if he is dead.
No. Some of what I do is humanitarian aid. I’ve described what that is in as much detail as I have to for him to know what kind of group that must be and he knows that it isn’t some military groups I’m clamoring for to have access into Libya for. I don’t work for those groups but I think the bottom line of any civilized society or rebel group is that those groups must be allowed to do what they do.
There are humanitarian groups at Libya’s borders I’ve been reporting on at this site for several days as to their progress gaining access. I also made no bones about the fact that my own role is very lowly and doesn’t compare to the incredible work that people there do, even if I don’t go to fantastic ports of call. I refuse to apologize for that or for calling their work humanitarian aid, I refuse to apologize for calling some of what I do humanitarian aid, I don’t care what the military or any other group calls what they do. I will apologize, as any American should, for what the American military has done in Iraq. I will not apologize for being a humanitarian. Not today, not tomorrow, not the next day.
I’m very sorry about his injuries but they don’t mean that humanitarian aid is something evil, that I should go burn my certs, or that I should go hang my head in shame for what I do or I don’t do.
You.go.read.what.humanitarian.aid.really.is.
Then come back and tell me why I should be ashamed about it.
As for interventions: If there are widespread and systematic atrocities rising to or threatening to rise to the level of genocide then intervention is required under both the Convention on Genocide and the UN Charter. If there aren’t any such atrocities then the situation is dictated by the UN Charter and the resolution. If it isn’t warranted, it shouldn’t happen. But there are levels of violence or deprivation against civilians that do warrant intervention. Otherwise, I perfectly agree, it shouldn’t happen. At all.
Calling me in favor of interventions because I’m calling for access for humanitarian groups though is crap. I don’t care who is doing the calling, and what he’s been through, it’s still crap. Access for humanitarian groups is access for, e.g. MSF, access for the ICRC, access for UNHCR and UNHCHR, UNWFP, stuff like that, groups that operate in war zones to provide humanitarian aid. Trucks full of medicinal supplies. Humanitarian and human rights monitors. Under Geneva IV Part II, they are supposed to be granted access no ifs ands or buts, likewise under AP2, or common Article 3 or any other thing. That’s just common human decency, not some great evil deception.
Likewise.
I’d read this piece a bit ago by Thomas Ruttig about that question; he says this:
“The other major difference is the ethnic composition of Afghanistan compared with Egypt and Tunisia: while the two Arab countries are much more homogenous (although Egypt has significant Christian minorities), Afghanistan is a patchwork rug of different nations, tribes and languages. This is the basis for all those semi-autonomous power-centers not really controlled by Karzai. In Afghanistan, there is no central government control over the means of violence. Even parts of the official security forces are more loyal to their traditional factions and their leaders then to Kabul and the president – and even more so the semi-official new militias that have sprung up.
Under these circumstances, it becomes very difficult for popular discontent to focus on one enemy. There is simply no Mubarak or Ben Ali in Afghanistan but, as German journalist Marc Thörner writes, “any number of mini-Mubaraks or small Ben Alis.” But when your own mini-Mubarak is armed and above the law (and even protects you from other mini-Mubaraks), false loyalties and fears are created. In a quasi-civil war – or whatever the exact definition of the current Afghan turmoil is – you really cannot expect people to turn to the streets because who exactly are they against and what exactly would they want and who exactly would they fear. Even if they often must feel like protesting publicly.
Finally, those who are really sick and tired of the Karzai regime have another option: to join the Taliban. Where else can they go? There is no middle ground, and those who could have become Afghan versions of Egyptian opposition figure Mohamed ElBaredei or current Arab League President Amr Moussas squandered their chances to build a viable third force and preferred to join the regime again, instead of taking up the grievances of the people. Unfortunately, the development of political parties has been neglected, not nurtured, so there a very few opportunities for a legitimate and sustainable opposition.”
http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/14/a_tahrir_effect_in_kabul
And my view is also this.
I believe we are incredibly PRIVILEGED to have Mohammed and his family, friends, and associates visit us here to converse, study, and share with us.
I would STILL find this a privilege even if these Iraqis did take their sorrow, frustration, and anger out on us. This would be understandable to me. They do not do this. They come in peace with graceful ways to inform us about what is happening in Iraq. To tell us what the meaning of these things is for Iraq and in Iraq. And to share their culture and knowledge with us while appreciating the differences between us.
In these days when our media will not tell us the truth -or even discover it for themselves- this is very, very important.
I wish we could disagree more gracefully. Still, perhaps it’s too much to ask that we disagree gracefully about war.
Thank you for being here, Mohammed.
The whole premise of this post and the discussion thread is about the US Military lining up to enter Libya under the guise of “humanitarian assistance” – whether you personally do humanitarian assistance is pretty much irrelevant to t the point. Neither you nor any other NGO organizations will be going into Libya anytime soon.
Mohammed and the rest of us have been pointing out the fallacies of calling what the US military will do “humanitarian. You seem to believe that things will operate in an ideal fashion and we are saying it will most likely be the very antithesis of that. And tht the Libyans don’t particularly desire any “humanitarian assistance from the US or Britain or any other outside countries.
The word ‘humanitarian’ has a meaning. You can deny that the meaning is what it is, and you can deny that it has that meaning under international humanitarian law all you like. You are just plain wrong. End of story. I have never called what the U.S. military is proposing or not proposing to do “humanitarian assistance”. If I could give you a link to a fine article I know of that clearly distinguishes them I would, but I tried to get it and it is behind a pay barrier. I’m not asserting an ideal fashion. I’m asserting that there should be immediate humanitarian access. Do you understand the term? It means access to all areas of Libya by humanitarian groups. It’s required by international humanitarian law — the laws of war — that would be the Geneva Conventions and associated protocols. If you don’t understand what that means, by all means ask me to explain further, but don’t put words in my mouth.
No one here is denying that there is a specific definition of the term “humanitarian.” You seem to think we are belittling the term and you and we’re not. But what is being proposed for Libya is being called “humanitarian” but is a military intervention.
And however it is defined, it seems that the Libyans have stated rather emphatically that they desire no intervention from foreign governments or NGOs. Period. And that is coming, as I understand it, from the rebel forces as well as from the Qaddaffi “government”
Be that as it may, it is unacceptable for the rebel groups, which are organized and hold territory, to deny access to humanitarian groups during an armed conflict. They inherit the accession to the Geneva Conventions and common Article 3 as a matter of customary international law and are expected to obey it.
In addition, some of the groups are not NGOs they are international personalities.
How are the rebel forces supposed to know who and what entities, NGOs, “international personalities” are whatever, can be trusted? Given the proven track record of interference by US government, British government, UN, etc, how and why could or should the Rebel forces trust anyone at the moment?
Because you say so? Right now it is probably the very worst thing they could do would be trusting any outside organizations of any flavor precisely because of the record of interference most all of them have exhibited. Maybe Red Crescent but that would be pushing it even there.
The rebel forces contain significant numbers of uniformed officers. They are aware that they must grant access to the Red Cross (ICRC) at bare minimum. International personalities have no allegiance to countries, they are subjects to international law only, as far as I know there are only two — the UN and the Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. There’s no “because you say so,” the officers at least are required to have been trained on that, Libya is a signatory of the Geneva Conventions and the APs.
And what is the “record of interference” of the ICRC? Do you have specifics or are you just generalizing over all organizations?
I have no idea if Red Crescent or Red Cross have ever been used by groups and agencies from the US or other governments but I also would not be surprised they have at all.
What I also think, is you have taken a position and talked past people all day. The fact that you refused to even read the link that siun provided (and IIRC, Mohammed ibn Laith’s father was active in the Red Crescent) continues to make me question your overall stance.
You had your mind made up as to what you think should be done, regardless of the actual situations on the ground.
Maybe the Libyan rebels are willing to allow visits from the Red Crescent. I don’t know. But as been stated multiple times before, the entire premise of this post and thread has been the drive by US and Britain to use “humanitarian activities” to do a military intervention against the expressed wish of the Libyans,
From the very first comment you made, it appeared you were calling for folks to rush into Libya and seemed determined to minimize the calls by others to go slow about having outsiders go into LIbya.
As Siun noted, there is a crisis but having US based entities rushing in there, no matter how well meaning, is a recipe for continuing disaster rather than affecting relief
Regardless of what the National Libyan Council says, Western forces should be positioned in the Mediterranean to provide air cover if there is a full-blown massacre. We’re just not sure whether the NLC is the true voice of the opposition at this point.
If they let Americans in under any set of conditions they’ll be infected with spooks and missionary religious zealots carrying bibles. That’s the sort of low life that too often tag along with both official parties and NGOs.
Right. As I said, you’re accusing without a shred of evidence and no knowledge of what you’re talking about, but you want me to go study.
Which gives him even less excuse to have deliberately misinterpreted me.
The actual situation on the ground. There has been access by humanitarian groups only to Benghazi, they are still trying to get any access past that point, except for the UN which had some access in Tripoli before the conflict started. As for foreign intervention, the French have flown directly into Benghazi with “humanitarian aid” meaning food and medical but under French flag.
That’s the situation on the ground. The military situation on the ground is that there was a large military escalation in the fighting by Qaddafi’s forces and there is a worry about civil war. There is a worry from UNHCR that this will leave a huge number of foreigners trapped in refugee status within Libya, possibly without food.
The Libyan Red Crescent operates in Libya anyway. What do you mean by “the Red Crescent”? There is no “The Red Crescent” to go in.
No, my first comments were that the situation in Tripoli would determine whether intervention was needed. And to call for full access for humanitarian aid. If there were atrocities still going on in Tripoli on a large scale that would mean that interventions had to be considered. I mentioned some of the atrocities that had been reported earlier. eCAHNomics claimed they were Ahmed Chalabi style plants. I took issue with that.
The only rushing in I have consistently advocated is for humanitarian groups. There are widespread reports of thousands of injured and low medical supplies and doctor availability. There’s therefore a need for that. IHL requires that humanitarian groups be given access to treat the wounded. Both Qaddafi and the rebels are required to allow that.
What entities? The entities that are massing are mostly international. Now (as of today) there are some U.S. ones. The ones that are big use local resources. Even the ICRC uses local resources except for monitors, who are Geneva based and neutral, once they get going. They’ll use Libyan Red Crescent people and recruit people or use people out of Tunisia. Right now they’re using people out of Europe because they need to put together emergency teams. Just because you don’t know how these organizations operate is no excuse for accusing them of all sorts of things. If I can be ordered by all of you to go read just to be allowed to voice opinions in his highness’s presence, then you can be expected to know that the Red Cross/Red Crescent, the UNHCR/UNWFP and many other organizations would be using mostly people from their North African headquarters, except for emergency specialists who will be from whichever country has the skills. Probably ZERO Americans, unless they’d been there for months or years.
Here. See? This is a call for access from the Tunisian side:
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/news-release/2011/libya-news-2011-02-28.htm
They don’t do this, this way, very often. This means it’s bad.
Here’s the “Red Crescent” maybe. Another part of the movement.
http://www.ifrc.org/en/news-and-media/news-stories/middle-east-and-north-africa/tunisia/alarming-humanitarian-situation-at-tunisias-border-with-libya/
Here’s the first OCHA report. The humanitarian organizations are now getting in to the Egypt side. You can rest easy. They are mostly Egyptian. See? Nobody is trying to take the place over. You and Mohammed can look over the organizations and batter the Egyptians about them if you like. Happy now? But I still want to see access from the Tunisian side and am still going to complain about it. And it still will be a case for intervention if there some kind of blood bath started.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/MUMA-8EJ2K2/$File/full_report.pdf
Jeeezzz.
At one point, after a defected Libyan ex-minister said Gaddafi had chemical and biological WMD and was capable of using them on his own people, I proposed that the USA should offer the services of an elite commando unit such as the U.S. Army Delta Force for a surprise lightning raid to capture or kill Gaddafi before he could give the order to use WMD. Even then, this was to be done only if the provisional revolutionary government wanted our help, knew where Gaddafi was, and could not do the raid themselves with defected Libyan commandos – and only in order to avoid the possible massacre of a substantial fraction of the entire Libyan population with WMD.
It now appears that Gaddafi has only mustard gas, not biological weapons, and does not even have effective delivery systems for the mustard gas, so a large-scale massacre using WMD would be impossible. And the interim Libyan government has apparently stated that they do not presently want our help. In my opinion, that’s it, end of story – U.S. intervention should not even be considered further until and unless the interim Libyan government reopens the question. There is no reason to pander to the imperialist fantasies of the U.S. neoconservatives who are presently pushing for intervention.
I also disagree with those who claim that intervention is inevitable simply because Libya has oil. There was a time when the USA took it as axiomatic that it could interfere in other nations’ affairs to whatever extent its own discretion indicated, unless they had nuclear weapons. That time is past, and I think the Obama administration realizes that. If anything, they would be more likely to fail to intervene out of sheer vacillation, if intervention were warranted.
The ultimate outcome of the Libyan Revolution is not in serious doubt. The Libyan revolutionaries are fighting for their nation’s freedom. If they think that that freedom will best be achieved by overcoming Gaddafi’s dwindling supply of loyalists entirely with their own resources, I see no reason at present to question their judgment.
There is one thing that the U.S. and the United Nations could do (if they have not done it already) that would not involve using any foreign combat forces in Libya, and yet would likely be more effective in limiting bloodshed than any large-scale military intervention could be: they should immediately and unequivocally recognize the interim Libyan revolutionary government as the sole legitimate government of Libya, and accordingly withdraw recognition from Gaddafi’s dying regime. Then Gaddafi’s loyalists become simply and solely a gang of crooks; who is going to remain loyal to that? Recognition of the interim Libyan revolutionary government, while purely symbolic in itself, could have enormous concrete beneficial effects in ending the conflict, if it were widely publicized within Libya.
But the thing is, you started preaching at Mohammed without knowing a thing about his history and have continued to preach and moralize at and about him without ever being willing to admit there might be information about things in the ME of which you are unaware.
You should really work on closing your harrumph harrumph tags
And the discussion, if you’ll go back to the beginning and look, started in its entirety, with people preaching to me without knowing what they were talking about. That includes Mohammed, who began by accusing me of advocating intervention. It includes you, who talked about humanitarian aid groups which you knew absolutely nothing about, includes both you and Siun, who told me I needed instruction to participate in a discussion when Mohammed decided he could insult me without knowing anything about me. Based solely on my race, creed, and national origin, you decided you could put me in a subservient role in the discussion.
You invented an organization and decided to tell me about it. eCAHNomics invented American subtrefuge in Tripoli and accused me of slur for calling him on it. I came here with facts. I came here with some knowledge about which organizations had and didn’t have access to the region, prepared to have a discussion about what might be needed in Libya. You came here without even knowledge of how those organizations function and demanded that I learn in order to even speak. Don’t tell me about harrumph tags.
I did go back to the beginning. Your first comment was how we had to rush in the humanitarian aid and you took immediate affront at those who questioned that the calls for aid you were describing were coming from inside Tripoli (you know, where Qadaffi is strongest) and that because of that, it might be a good idea to go slow. You then jumped on eCAHN and others for saying that a little verification might be nice and started your “but it’s humanitarian aid” even though others were pointing out that what was being presented as humanitarian was coming from US military.
Again, no one questioned the efficacy or possible need for humanitarian aid. All that was questioned was the convenient timing at a moment when the US military, Britain and other military were itching for an excuse to intervene, and intervention.
You seem to be presenting as fact what would happen in an ideal world where dictators and countries that practice cowboy diplomacy all bow to the exigencies of the aid programs. Others were and are looking at the actions in light of historical precedents.
no. It was not. It was about how we had to find out what was going on in Tripoli. I took offense to eCAHNomics assertion that those in Tripoli were American plants. He had no evidence of such, none whatsoever. There was ample evidence that those alleging indiscriminate attacks on civilians, those alleging attacks from ambulances, those alleging attacks in hospitals, attacks on medical and humanitarian workers, were not plants, because they were multiply alleged, and were coming from sources that were verified by people coming across the borders and sources with whom the refugee agencies or the LRC had contact. eCAHNomics, by contrast, had no source for his allegations, which were pure drivel, like your assertion that there might be collusion between the Red Cross, which in these situations is the ICRC, and U.S. military interests — something you haven’t proof for over the last 150 years.
Humanitarian aid and access. That’s what I’ve been all about on all the threads about Libya. I explained that to oneshot or whatever his/her handle is. I look at that limited picture. I get on this thread because there are no other threads for discussing Libya here on FDL. I come prepared, or as prepared as I can, I asked, not told. Go look, I asked what was happening in Tripoli.
I monitor a lot of sites on humanitarian aid and access. I coughed up info on it. For several threads here. I did so here. Yes, I disputed eCAHNnomics and Siun sagely telling me crap, because that’s what it was. At that point, allegations of atrocities and war crimes in Tripoli by Qaddafi forces were multiply sourced. There was nothing sage about their admonitions.
So when oneshot called me an apologist, for the sole crime of saying I wasn’t into grand games of yammering without facts about oil and imperialism and was instead worried about aid and access, that’s when your royal buddy decided to jump on me and accuse me of advocating armed intervention. But I never advocated it. So he can go hang. I owe you and him nothing.
I present as fact what would happen if militaries bow to the exigencies of international law. As it so happens, the military in the rebel groups decided they had better do that. Qaddafi’s forces are defying it and they are being remanded to the ICC for it. Fancy that. It isn’t a fantasy maybe. Maybe instead of lecturing me, you should take a step back and see what it is that I’m really advocating, and not what all your conspiracy theory buddies are saying I’m advocating. Same with Mohammed.
And yes, people did question humanitarian aid. They claimed it was just a pretense for imperialism. They claimed that someone who was concerned with access and aid and not with grand schemes of oil and imperialism was an apologist who paved the way for evil men. They claimed it was an “oh, but we meant well” excuse. And when they were done saying that that was what I was doing and intending and secretly meaning, you claimed I owed them and apology for not being sufficiently prostrating and self-effacing before such insults.