He’s on!

We’re monitoring all the stations and so far the umbrella appearance is all I’ve got. We’ll liveblog if he says more.

SultanAlQassemi is evidently watching Libyan State TV.

And….nothing!

Hope he has his umbrella with him, or at least broadcasts from a tent.

The setting was totally bizarre, with him in the car (?) and that huge umbrella. And the hat.

http://yfrog.com/h6a0ckj

Surreal.

2:23am in Libya.

Sounds like he is pulling a Saddam thing by sending planes against his own people. Why can’t we tell him NO. do that and we will take out your air force.

Updated – so everyone can see the umbrella.

LOL! I wonder if he asked his planned escape country if he can pitch his tents up on the Capitol Lawns!!!

That’s not Gaddafi! That’s Michael Jackson!! Or is that the Joker? No, no, it’s Michael!

Who funds his air force and keeps his planes aloft? Who sells him bullets and guns? Who keeps his Navy afloat?

That’s a big-ass umbrella.

Siun, You are like most of the others here at FDL! AWESOME! You all scoop the MSM and press so many times, it’s not even funny.

ZOOM! YOU, GO!

So what’s the over/under on how long it takes him to either step down or be killed?

Is that umbrella bulletproof?

[best singing voice]
Who funds his air force and keeps his planes aloft? Mame…

Who sells him all those bullets and guns? Mame…

“The world is watching the situation in Libya with alarm. We join the international community in strongly condemning the violence in Libya, while we hold no remorse over selling Gadaffi the Aircraft and Weaponry he used on his people. American business interests must come first. Our thoughts and Christian prayers are with those poor brown souls whose lives have been lost, and with their loved ones. We hope they had a second to pray to Jesus before their heads were blown off by our guns. The government of Libya has a responsibility to respect the universal rights of the people, the way we do at Gitmo and at Black Sites throughout the world, including the right to waterboarding and other expressions of patriotism.”

I’m not biting that one. All I know is that even if they do get him out, he has two sons left in the country that control in different areas.

UK sells arms to Libya, according to AJ. Guess which PM upped those ties. UK ‘reviewing’ export licenses.

Gotta love the administration stump speeches…

“situation is fluid”
“very concerned”
“watching with alarm”
“will he use tear gas with Made in USA on side”

Blair/poodledog for Bush and Cheney.

Gaddafi does not look well.

on edit: couple that with the fact that the long statement was made by his son, not him.

Duh.

Well? Has he said anything yet?

The one time in my life I wish our military would act…Couldn’t some fighter planes surround his plane and force him to land? Is anyone monitoring the airspace?

eCHan, I’m going to ask FDL in the morning about that economic summit here with our economists that contribute. I know it is off topic, but not really in a straight line kinda way.

No. You can watch AJE http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/.

Eventually even tyrants age? He looks like plastic surgery gone wrong.

Why do you think he’s in a plane?

Can anyone confirm that the tri-colored flag is flying at the London embassy?

My puter is a little old and can’t handle it while being here. I love this place and the incredible people.

He’s only 69. Doesn’t look good for that age.

Either that or in a tunnel/bunker.

Agree. Thought he was older than Mubarek. So he was 27 when he took power!

Do you know something about his whereabouts?

Gaddafi’s wiki.

That’s a very good question. A lot of his money comes from oil sales to Europe.

Are you saying that the above pic looks like he just got of his car once pulled up into a cargo plane?

AJE is reporting that the Austrian military has announced that the air space over Libya is closed. Here is Austria’s equipment:

Eurofighter EF2000 European Union Fighter July 2007 15 (original order of 24 reduced to 18, then 15)
Trainer
Saab 105Oe Sweden Trainer July 1970 28 Originally 40
Pilatus PC-7 Turbo Trainer Switzerland Trainer December 1983 16
Helicopters
Sud Aviation (now EADS) SA-316B Alouette III France Utility helicopter January 1967 24 Originally 29
Bell (now Bell Textron) OH-58B Kiowa United States Scout/Utility helicopter June 1976 11 Originally 12
Agusta Bell (now AgustaWestland/Bell Textron) 212 United States
Italy Utility helicopter May 1980 24 Originally 26
Sikorsky S-70A-42 Black Hawk United States Utility helicopter October 2002 9
Transports
Pilatus PC-6/B2-H2 Turbo Porter Switzerland Utility transport June 1976 12 Originally 14
Lockheed (now Lockheed Martin) Hercules C.Mk 1P United States Transport March 2003 3 ex RAF

I worked in Air Freight for a number of years. That doesn’t look like the inside of a cargo hold to me.

New from Wikileaks:

Canada gives $1Bil to Libya as “signing bonus” http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2008/06/08TRIPOLI498.html

That’s Petro-Canada (formerly state-owned, now privatized) giving a one billion dollar kickback to Libya’s National Oil Corporation. That’s a lot of money.

AJ did a segment on U.K. arms sales to Libya. I’m sure they’ll replay it. But didn’t mention who else sells arms to them. Commenters on earlier thread said fighter jets that the defector pilots landed in Malta are French Mirages.

Also, AJ did segment on econ ties with Italy, which are quite large even excluding oil. But I don’t remember that they mentioned anything about arms in that segment.

“The world is watching the situation in Libya with alarm. We join the international community in strongly condemning the violence in Libya. Our thoughts and prayers are with those whose lives have been lost, and with their loved ones. The government of Libya has a responsibility to respect the universal rights of the people, including the right to free expression and assembly. Now is the time to stop this unacceptable bloodshed. We are working urgently with friends and partners around the world to convey this message to the Libyan government.”

Good lord! Way to phone it in sHillary.

I asked earlier if there was some way to freeze all his assets before he made them disappear.

Gaddafi is the one who closed the airspace. And I think it is primarily closed around Tripoli, not the whole country.

Yeah. She sure waited till the 11th hour, huh?

And still didn’t say anything of substance.

That was the request from folks inside Libya a few days ago – they wanted to block the money he was using to hire the mercenaries … but silence from US and EU on that.

no. The speculation is Venezuela.

Yep … he closed it. In Benghazi, a Turkish jet tried to fly in to pick up Turkish nationals but there was no air traffic control so they had to turn around without landing.

Not to mention that after the Swiss froze Bin Ali’s assets, any other dictator worth his salt got the funds into someplace like Caymans.

Aloha, Siun…!

Amnesty International just released this disturbing report from Egypt…

Guards accused as scores allegedly shot dead in Egyptian prison

Egyptian prison guards in watchtowers are feared to have shot dead scores of inmates and a visitor during continuing unrest at a prison near Cairo.

Inmates at the al-Qatta al-Gadeed Prison have given the names of 43 prisoners to Amnesty International who they say have been killed inside the jail. [...]
“The authorities must stop the use of lethal force against inmates and allow all those injured to receive medical treatment immediately,” said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International’s Middle East and North Africa director.

“An independent investigation into the disturbances at the prison must be conducted without delay to establish the circumstances in which prison guards used lethal force,” he added.

The bodies of some inmates from the prison were among 115 corpses from at least four prisons brought to Zenhom morgue in the Egyptian capital, most of which had bullet wounds in the head, neck and chest, said a forensic physician, who wished to remain anonymous.

Several inmates’ relatives who have received bodies have also said the prisoners had suffered bullet wounds to the same areas of the body, suggesting the wounds could have come from sniping attacks.

Well, come on people.

We all know it rains like hell in Libya, which is where the only tropical rainforest in Africa is located. That’s why they call Libya the lungs of Africa.

Maybe the revolution interrupted his golf game?

If true, we just learned today that his oldest son is the owner of a Special Forces type business.

There ya go! It’s all in the family.

Venezuela issued an official denial fwiw.

No clue. That could be old footage and apparently was only shown on Libyan tv.

I’m sure that Clinton and Obama can only issue platitudes until Tel Aviv tells them what the US position is.

I really distrust these Venezuela rumors … they began a day or so ago, have never been substantiated and sound all too much like what the US or Israel want us to believe to undermine Chavez.

Meanwhile, we hear very little about whether our pals the Sauds will extradite Ben Ali to Tunisia as requested.

I hadn’t thought about ATC. Not having it puts a definite crimp on flying in & out.

That’s great! This would be an appropriate time to use our drones if we have facts about the mercenaries traveling in buses. Facts.

Good Evening, Friend. Nice of you to join us and speak up. ;-)

It’s complicated. When Reagan ordered the hit against Gaddafi, Spain and France refused to allow the US planes to fly over their territory.

According to this site, it is raining in Tripoli.

Looks like the NSA removed your snark tag again.

Thanks. I’ve been sitting here quietly analyzing that photograph and I have to say that I can see the hand of the evil Moriarity behind the umbrella.

Watson! There’s no time to waste. The case is on. We must find Gaddafi before it rains and the umbrella blows up.

OT, but apparently a big earthquake hit New Zealand

Somewhat OT but maybe worth reminding: Gaddafi boycotts Switzerland, wanted the country removed from the UN, didn’t like how the Swiss treated his son who beat up his woman in their country.

LOL! Sherlock!

I’m sure you’re right, it’s just that Chavez has an ego that could rival Qadafi’s!

Didn’t know that. Thanks.

So his money was never in Switzerland.

Damn, damn.

You spoilt my fun.

I’ll get you back for this someday.

You meanie, you:)

I have no desire to see the US take any military action. Our hands are too bloody throughout the region for anyone to trust us.

I would like to see UN action – freezing assets definitely, potentially enforcing a no fly zone but I fear it’s too late for such to matter.

Air drops of medical supplies, communications equipment (sat phones, etc) would be a good thing.

If his money was there, he withdrew it years ago.

There was also more than one umbrella in video and when he went to close his, it was wet on top.

Timing seems strange though. It was after 2am when it was shown on state TV, and I doubt he was up. So if it was filmed in Tripoli, it was prolly earlier.

They may have held it for broadcast until he was out of the country. Current guest on AJ points out that he fled a couple of other times, both thru tunnels.

OTOH, earlier guest on AJ was at a loss to figure out a country that would take him in. Apparently he’s on the outs with the usual suspects.

Word on the street is that Gaddafi is on his way to the White House where Obama is going to give a speech calling him a courageous defender of democracy and award him a presidential medal of freedom.

I think the Saudi’s would take him, only in secret though.

Sheesh!

Might as well, Obama got the peace prize.

It’s confusing, of course, and delicate b/c it’s an internal issue, there’s no aggression from without. We’re reminded of Cambodia, Rwanda, Somalia — to name ‘old’ tragedies.

One well placed cruise missile would save many,many lives. And we could always deny it can from us

When the U.S. tried to take him out that way earlier, it killed his daughter not him.

From his wiki “Among the alleged fatalities of 15 April retaliatory attack by the U.S. was Gaddafi’s adopted daughter, Hannah.”

That was 1986 under Raygun.

I don’t think the US should do that. I don’t think the US should use any military force. We’ve caused too many other problems.

Gaddafi was implicated in assasination plots against Saudi ruler a while back and seems to have picked fights with them rather often so not sure they’d have him.

http://tinyurl.com/d8lqj7

it’s been a rocky relationship …

Uh-Oh! I stand corrected.

that’s why I say well placed and even if there were some bystanders lost it’s better than seeing whole cities bombed by Gadafi

He has a Fatwa placed on him by a religious leader. It won’t be long.

Thanks Siun. I remembered that the AJ guest who couldn’t think of a place that would take him in, had a specific argument against the Saudis, but I couldn’t remember what it was.

Also a number of other innocent Libyans. Read Robert Fisk’s chapter on the attack in Great War … it’s haunting.

“Well placed” certainly rules out U.S. doing it.

I believe the north/south EU split had to be closed before Hillary could issue a statement – the EU lives off the energy from Libya – and the southern EU states wanted to let him handle his people – she had to get the south to condemn just as Germany and the others were condemning what was being done to demonstrators.

Meanwhile it is curious how our media ignors the tribal nature of what is going on. Qadhafi’s Qadhadfa tribe runs things – as with Saddam and his tribe in old Iraq – and the tribe has an ongoing rivalry with the Magariha tribe of Abdel Sallam Jalloud – and dumped on tribes in the military considered an anti-Qadhafi alliance between the military opponents of the regime and Islamic militants, lead by a militant shaikh in 96 – but it did not materialise.

Meanwhile the tribe that just announced that it was at war with Qadhafi, the Warfalla tribe, is also the tribe that tried to do a coup attempt in 1993, and indeed it is closest to the Magariha tribe. And in 93 the Al Zintan tribe backed the Warfalla as well. Again todays news is similar to 93 when the coup attempt began in the south and east.

Democracy and freedom is of course an objective of the demonstrators – but there is also an objective to end the exclusion of Warfalla tribal officers from the air force. The air force is reserved almost exclusively to the Qadhadfa tribe, to which Qadhafi belongs. It was the air force which crushed the coup attempt in October 1993 – just as it is they who are bombing now.

Now the Magariha tribe is only a bit smaller than the Warfalla in terms of numerical strength and is bigger than the Qadhadfa.

Depending on how you define tribes, there can be several dozen tribes, and in groups, or separately, they would want there own state if the demonstrators “won”. There may be a few new states coming out of this – or the air force could again stop the coup.

This feels like Iraq 6 years before we reduced manpower to 50,000 troops – I don’t see it as an Egypt.

But it’s not how the world works. Anyway, firedoglake declared the Egyptian resolution to be a junta long before the regular press and MSM called it a junta. Another junta will resolve Libya’s DOR, proly w/i hrs.

I hope not. I guess deep down would shouldn’t interfere at all. it’s just a shame that so many innocents die for no good reason.

I think we could actually redeem ourselves in some ways if we were able to save the Libyan people.

OT-collection of Union Songs via @pourmecoffee.

It was a 6.3 mag. that occurred early this morning right off shore of Christchurch…! Fortunately no notable tsunamis were generated…

Belusconi’s statement came out some 3 hours before Hillary’s.

It’s amazing how accurate we are now with GPS and such

If you go to USGS you can get email notifications of earthquakes.

No mention of tribes by Libyan guests on AJ.

I’m on the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center’s email notification list…! The only one I’m truly worried about…! ;-)

I guess that’s why, with 118 U.S. drone bombings in Pak last year, 2 high value targets were killed.

Or why the U.S. was able to take out Saddam Hussein on the first day of the Iraq invasion.

Oh wait…

I don’t think the US (or anyone) deployed a cruise missile before Op Desert Storm (Tomahawks). They’re very expensive, several mil apiece.

I heard the Taureg tribes are also revolting. Do you have any links sorting the tribes out? Are the Zuwayya’s a sub set of the Warfalla?

That is very true, but then again you could ask the Pakistani’s and Afhgans and they could tell you not so much.

It costs us around 9 million for a single drone strike.

Yeah, when I went to refresh my memory on Gaddafi’s wiki, it was part of a more extensive bombing raid by the U.S.

They hit their targets. It’s not the weapons fault if the wrong targets are picked

AJ guest is talking about Gaddafi’s special forces, which guest on democracynow pointed out this morning.

Are they reporting the son involved with any of them?

If indeed, the Austrians are going to create a no-fly zone. That zone can then be adapted for air flights to come in to evacuate foreign national. And on those flights could be relief supplies. Freezing assets first requires locating them; I suspect over the past few weeks he has moved liquid assets to friendly countries. But he likely has real estate and other assets that are not movable. If the Navy has indeed been firing artillery rounds on civilian neighborhoods, that might be a little more difficult to stop; that will likely end in a mutiny once sailors on board realize that Gaddafi is effectively gone.

One of the first things that needs to be done is getting communications going again so what happens is not done in darkness. And so folks in Libya can communicate with families and friends outside Libya.

AJ repeating its segment on U.K. biz ties with Gaddafi, if anyone wants to tune in.

http://www.vbs.tv/newsroom/vbs-news-presents-taliban-in-pakistan-full-length–2 Good story on how we are failing in Pak/Afgan

It’s the “well placed” part that is the problem. Do you have the GPS coordinates for Muammar’s cell phone? As I remember Reagan tried bombing–killed his daughter in the house, missed Gaddafi in his tent.

I didn’t hear him say anything about that, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Guest also pointed out how difficult it is for expats (or even people within the country) to know much detail about how what is commonly thought of as military & Gaddafi’s forces interact, or are integrated, since Gaddafi’s kept it secret.

You make me remember (1) those cherry-picked video clips during Op Desert Storm that showed all those smart bombs dropping into silos and chimneys and later (2) Senator John Kerry as chair of a select committee to investigate the Colombian drug cartel problem asking an Air Force general why we can’t just make a few surgical air strikes where the coke is processed, and the general replying that the Senator has a delusional sense (though not in those exact words) of the Air Force’s capacity to perform precision strikes.

Thanks! You should write us some posts. You are as awesome at the details as some of the others here.

That junta will have to suppress Gaddafi’s mercenaries in order to restore order–a much difficult situation than the one in Egypt.

ha! That’s like the police detective telling me their investigation was not what I thought it should after my break-in because, “This ain’t CSI”.

he said that as he hicked up his pants by the belt on both sides and threw his big belly out at me thinking it would suffice as a chest.

Raygun used a lot of dumb bombs recklessly. It seems hard for some to believe but our technology at killing people has advanced a lot in 30+ years but it has. Hell we’ve spent enough that it should.

I believe the north/south EU split had to be closed before Hillary could issue a statement – the EU lives off the energy from Libya – and the southern EU states wanted to let him handle his people – she had to get the south to condemn just as Germany and the others were condemning what was being done to demonstrators.

Of course we couldn’t just issue a statement setting out our position to pressure them! Sigh. Remember back when we would actually lead? Now we’ve got to wait until there is zero political risk or take zero action. Is this how centrists handle EVERYTHING? What a worthless fucking ideology.

I still think we should wait until the people of Libya ask us for military assistance. You can’t just fly over and drop bombs. That is too much like Bush and Raygun, and others. We are or should control ourselves.

It might not be the target coordinates; it might be the assumption that the targeted guy is just waiting around home for a missile from a drone to strike him. Reagan assumed that Gaddafi was home when he was camping in the back yard in his tent.

Yes, we’ve gone from blockbusters and carpet bombing to being able hit the top of a Defense Ministry and a Chinese Embassy to hitting somewhere near a mountain hut. Knowing who is really there has become the problem.

Just sometimes.

I like to be there when history is made. So I’ve spent almost all day listening to AJ, which is doing the stories 24/7. Did that several days during Egypt too.

PLUS, the overthrow of dictators is one of the few feelgood stories around these days. Couldn’t do same with Wisc story bc I’m so afraid it will not end well & that depresses me.

That’s probably where he is. Camping.

The diff bet Rs and Ds in foreign policy is that Ds think you should bomb them for humanitarian reasons too.

Please read my post at 92

Neither Gaddafi nor Libya has harmed or threatened the US: there is no plausible reason to take him out. Humanitarian aid is the most we could provide.

Doesn’t a request for the establishment of a “No-Fly” zone count as the people of Libya asking for military assistance? At least to the extent of shooting down Gadaffi’s aircraft.

I agree with all you’ve said, that’s why I said it had to be “well placed”. meaning if we could take out Gadafi it might save thousands of lives. But I see some here think the ethical thing to do is sit and watch thousands be slaughtered and pat themselves on the back for being so morally superior. And they bitch that Obama/Clinton won’t do squat.

No. I don’t see it that way. I think they were requesting no fly for their own military. I am probably wrong about that, like I said it is what I think.

I simply disagree that the US needs to jump in and bomb right now. Tomorrow, may hold different things and I may change that. Anyway, I always agree to disagree with no menace. No insults, and no tactics.

On the one hand, we have society, and on the other is something nasty, brutish, and short.

The US could ask to speak to the leader of the protests and offer their support. If they/protestors want it, then yes we should. Until then, we should allow them to demonstrate.

Who are the ‘people of Libya’ who have asked for military assistance? All I’ve heard on AJ are mostly expats, which includes quite a few who claim to have talked to their relatives in country.

I am reminded that Chalabi was an expat who asked for U.S. military aid.

And even if it were possible to talk directly to people inside Libya, how would their bona fides be verified. How would be know they aren’t plants?

Which is why the est of a no-fly zone is up to the U.N.

It’s a tougher choice when it isn’t abstract.

So true, I just wish “society” would hurry up and get here.

It is Gaddafi who has closed the airspace over Tripoli & environs to make it free for him to shoot at and bomb the protesters.

Don’t know how Austria got into the mix except that I seem to remember that AJ first heard that Gaddafi had closed the air space thru some official in Austria.

A no-fly zone est by foreigners to prevent Gaddafi from flying over Libya, as I said, has to go thru the U.N. That is the only est mechanism for doing it now.

There are no leaders to the protest. They are still in the spontaneous fury stage and Gaddafi is doing everything he can to keep them off balance. Unlike Egypt, there is no one within country to talk to. But I bet there are extensive conversations with ex-pat Libyans who have been talking with family and with the EU foreign minister, UN secretary general, and individual heads of state.

let us not be fools, the USA military is watching everything happening in Libya

so OBAMA and Hillary know what is going on.

this should tell you everything you need to know about the current WH

Right, the UN has to approve.

I’m done for the night. Tired and ready to relax. See you all tomorrow.

Even if there were ‘leaders’ how would an outsider verify how representative they are.

I understand about waiting for an invite, but I think it’s well beyond the Libyians wanting to demonstrate. Anyway I was just fantasizing about how the US could maybe SAVE thousands of Muslum lives for a change. I wonder what those people being gunned down in the streets would say?

Gaddafi’s all female personal body guards, ‘amazonian guards’
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501051/Five-planes-camel-tent-30-female-virgin-bodyguards–Libyan-leader-Gaddafi-arrives-Paris-entourage.html

http://laughterizer.weebly.com/1/post/2010/11/gaddafis-amazonian-guard.html

The US is an indirect associate of Libya via corporate interests, whereas European companies & such are direct associates. Very likely people in Europe are not in the dark. US security of course depends on Europe’s and EU’s financial stability so to speak. So I imagine the real-time conversations happening between WH, Wall Street, and persons in Europe.

Thanks for the correction. The chiron appeared once and I have not seen it since.

I think that the UN Securty Council might go for a military escort for planes to evacuate foreign nationals; that might require the set up of a temporary air control equipment to handle the traffic as Libyan air control is likely to be otherwise occupied.

I heard the Taureg tribes are also revolting.

I think they’re rather comely, actually.

Neither Gaddafi nor Libya has harmed or threatened the US: there is no plausible reason to take him out.

Maybe so. But he hasn’t had a date in a long time.

You have an exaggerated idea of US military capabilities. Communications in Libya are shut down; NSA is useless. Spy satellites are useful only on their orbital passes, which are at a minimum of 45 minutes. We have few people on the ground; even US corporations likely are operating with nationals from other than the US. And we can’t communicate with them anyway. We have no military contacts and only rudimentary diplomatic staff because relations have not been fully normalized. And we have information that the Europeans might know from their resources.

Your statement reeks of the idea that the US is still the sole hyperpower. George W. Bush wanted to use all that neat equipment, and the world found out that our power was hollow.

And people speaking in the name of a government are careful of what they say. There really is nothing that Obama could say that would affect the situation. Clinton’s pro forma statements about freedom of assembly and openness to the media is probably where they are pushing if there is anyone in the Libyan government who is still taking their calls. The European Union really is in a better position, politically and logistically to deal with this situation. And to go to the UN Security Council.

paupau had an interesting comment earlier about all the tribes in Libya & the complicated shifting of alliances that has gone on among & between them. I have heard nothing about that on AJ. On further thought, the absence of expats talking about that might be to manipulate outsiders bc they think one faction or another they support or don’t might be better/worse off with outsiders intervening.

Biz interests are yet another pressure group.

One AJ guest I’ve heard thought U.N. sec council would go for a no-fly zone quickly & cited some cases where process was too slow, but didn’t need to be. Other guests were not so optimistic about how quickly it could be done, or even whether it would be.

Siun mentioned earlier that a Turkish evac plane couldn’t land in Benghazi, where apparently the airspace is open to foreign planes, but there’s no ATC. So it had to turn around & go home empty.

The United States has no credibility in the Middle East and it deserves none. It needs to stay the hell out of the internal affairs of other countries.

The rest of the world is not Tombstone, AZ, and the United States is not Wyatt Earp. It’s a rogue nation and the most dangerous terrorist organization in the world.

If we did interfere in Libya’s internal affairs, the Libyan people would attack our people and we would be at war in yet another country.

I know Star Trek was science fiction entertainment, but the prime directive was pure genius.

paupau is an amazing resource, as are you — thanks for your tireless work today. I’m a speculator for this is all (but a genuine cook at the moment, dividing time between cooking sleek with couscous & falafels and reading here). The real problem with on-air guests (exception: Democracy Now!) is that they have to say stuff even anything.

Thanks for that information.

The trouble with on air guests, including dn, is that they all have agendas, and if you are in the learning stages on a topic, you have no way to evaluate the veracity of what they are saying.

You have an exaggerated idea of US military capabilities.

Not to mention the fact that the U.S. military has its own agenda, which in recent years seems to bear no relation to anything that would benefit, ya know, like real people in the U.S. And they are very good at manipulating the pols into doing what the military wants them to do.

So…the 15 second umbrella shot is *really* all Moammar is going to give us? What a jerk. Yeah, I understate the obvious.

I take most at thier word and always with a grain of salt and if in doubt I ask or look it up. If they have an agenda it usually shows itself quickly.

James Carroll’s House of War recounts the history of how we got to this point with that independent agenda.

What the Bush administration showed was that the agenda exceed the capability to accomplish it. A classic case of military overreach. I think Gates realizes this but has problems with the brass on the one hand and the Congress on the other in dealing with this. At least he encouraged some of the loonier toons to retire.

Of course the military can manipulate Congress. What is scarier than “a foreign attack on your watch–Pearl Harbor, 9/11, 9/11). And lower levels, more permanent and bureaucratic levels of DoD have direct contacts with Congress and their staffs and function as lobbyists for the institutional interests of the Pentagon as the permanent staff see it, regardless of the JCOS or the SecDef.

After 64 years, the have institutionally a lot of practice at what they do.

But it’s a big huge dinosaur, unrelated to the national security environment that they have through poor decisions created for the US. But it keeps those careers going.

Athenae is upstairs!
Late Night: Cheeseheads Unite

With all this upheaval going down, get ready for a real desperation move by the powers that be. All this democracy has to be shut down because it is upsetting the whole apple cart. The Suez Canal, Big Oil and the paranoia Israel must feel are gonna make something pop. If demonstrations begin in Saudia Arabia watch out. You can bet Barry is calling all the neocon assholes for advice and we all know they believe in the “shock doctrine”.

the UN cannot act without a resolution to that effect – can’t quite see china agreeing to it – it didn’t particularly want mubarak’s departure either and that was strange for china to say anything as publicly as it did on that occassion