There are reports of clashes between anti-government protesters and Gaddafi supporters around the Green Square.
“We are in Tripoli, there are chants [directed at Gaddafi]: ‘Where are you? Where are you? Come out if you’re a man,” a protester told Al Jazeera on the phone.
Libya 17Feb reports that there is gunfire in Tripoli with violent clashes going on now:
URGENT reports are coming in of serious gun fire in Saha Al Khadra from various sources.
In the last few minutes, twitter reports are increasing of intense live fire attacks on the protesters in Tripoli by mercenaries but we’re unable to verify those reports. Many claim the speech was a cover to distract people while Ghaddafi forces launched the attacks – and there are reports of heavy gunfire and potentially many casualties in the Green Square:
@Tripolitanian Libyan
Caller: The speech was a decoy, barrage of sniper fire in #Tripoli during the speech. #Libya
@feb17libya
Libyans are being massacred by mercenaries NOW in Zawid Dahmani, #Tripoli–#Libya #Feb17, send eyewitness reports to feb17contact@gmail.com
Some twitter users to follow for news include: @ShababLibya, @almanaralibya, @Tripolitanian, @Feb17Libya and @SultanAlQassemi.
The situation is clearly still chaotic – see this sampling of twitter reports also from Libya 17Feb:
00:00 @nbcnightlynews Eyewitness in #Tripoli: sound of live ammunition coming from within the barricades of #Gaddafi headquarters.
23:56 @7our: Radio Libyan Revolution: “Don’t let him flee, catch them all, all the (Gaddafi) gang !”.Witness: 3/4 of Tripoli is in our hands.
23:55 @ShababLibya: BREAKING: TRIPOLI: MARCHING IN THE STREETS AND CHANTING! We’ll have a Free Libya soon,
23:50 @LibyayaLibya: Massive attacks front of Bab Alziiza #Tripoli. Snipers shooting at unarmed civilians.
23:49 @ShababLibya: it is confirmed by a few sources the warfala tribe is begining to rise, they are a big tribe covering east and west
23:46 @LibyanThinker: News! Police stations in #Tripoli are being burned down.
23:32 @Tripolitanian: Gunfire in hay-Alandalus and Girgarish
23:30 @ElGeryani: confrimed! baba el azeziya surrounded by the people!
23:26 @ChangeInLibya Reports that mercenaries have set fire to two of the biggest supermarkets in #tripoli tonight – from one of the supermrkt owners himself
23:24 @ShababLibya Qaradawi is urging all of libya to take to the streets, this had a huge effect in egypt and it will do now in #Libya#Feb17
23:15 @AJELive: “there is a white mitsubishi lancer … they are shooting at people randomly” doctor in Tripoli tells @AJELive
23:13 @AJELive: More news coming in: a resident of the upmarket suburb Benashour in Tripoli says she can hear gunshots and sounds of clashes #Libya
23:01 @azadessa he estimates that there are around 7000 in Tajoura, and perhaps 8000 in sog el jumaa #libya (he is a doctor)
Al Jazeera reports very bad news for Gaddafi:
Meanwhile the head of the Al-Zuwayya tribe in eastern Libya has threatened to cut off oil exports unless authorities stop what he called the “oppression of protesters”, the Warfala tribe, one of Libya’s biggest, has reportedly joined the anti-Gaddafi protests.
Speaking to Al Jazeera, Shaikh Faraj al Zuway said: “We will stop oil exports to Western countries within 24 hours” if the violence did not stop. The tribe lives south of Benghazi, which has seen the worst of the deadly violence in recent days.
Akram Al-Warfalli, a leading figure in the Al Warfalla tribe, one of Libya’s biggest, told the network: “We tell the brother (Gaddafi), well he’s no longer a brother, we tell him to leave the country.” The tribe lives south of Tripoli.
And new reports are coming in that the Tuareg are also joining the opposition to the dictator.
A number of Libyan diplomats have resigned:
Libya’s ambassador to China, Hussein Sadiq al Musrati, has just resigned on air with Al Jazeera Arabic. He called on the army to intervene, and has called all diplomatic staff to resign.
And:
Libyan envoy to Arab League quits and ‘joins revolution’ according to Al Jazeera Arabic. It is reported that he has resigned in protests in what he calls a massacre against the Libyan people.
Hospitals continue to report large numbers of casualties with Benghazi reporting 50 just since Sunday afternoon. Earlier today, a doctor speaking with the BBC from Al Jallah hospital in Benghazi reported that most of wounded are shot in chest – yesterday 128 serious injuries at his hospital, 176 from another, 8 from another and one hospital not reporting – all bullet wounds in chest or abdomen from large caliber weapons.
He also reported that people were riding in army tanks holding weapons from army with the army has mainly gone over to the people but one brigade that is Qaddafi’s personal guard had been holding out and mercenaries are still in the streets. Latest reports are that Benghazi is completely in the hands of the people and they are celebrating. You can see a video from the streets of the city at the facebook page of the “Libyan Youth Movement.”
A doctor calling Al Jazeera just a short while ago reported that while the casualties were high, with 300 dead since the start of the revolution in Benghazi alone, the people are proud that they have come together to throw off Ghaddafi’s control of their city.
There is a webcam set up in Benghazi which at time provides a livestream from the street outside the courthouse – you can check it here.
Meanwhile, the response from the White House remains virtually nil. Activists are calling for the US and Europe to freeze Libyan accounts to block Ghaddafi’s access to funds to pay mercenaries but western countries appear unwilling to take any action to help protect the people being massacred. Sec. Clinton, on ABC’s This Week was inane. Along with comments about the danger of the revolutions possibly repeating the outcome in Iran after the Shah was deposed,:
Mrs. Clinton gave little indication of the specific steps Washington was undertaking, other than stepping up use of the social media which fomented this year’s uprisings. The State Department, she observed, has Twitter accounts in Arabic and Farsi.
In Iran and the Arab world, “we want them to hear directly from us what our policies are. We want to use it to rebut some of the falsehoods and accusations that, unfortunately, are made against the United States,” Mrs. Clinton said. “But mostly we want to be in the mix with this incredible, young, energetic population that is seeking the same rights to express themselves as young people in the United States seek.”
Perhaps this explains the repeated tweets from State Department spokesman P J Crowley whose latest include:
@PJCrowley
#Libya continues to restrict outside communications but it cannot hide the mounting death toll as it cracks down on peaceful protesters.@PJCrowley
#SecClinton discussed the situation in #Bahrain with #Saudi FM Prince Saud. They agreed to support Bahrain’s dialogue with all its citizens.
Not exactly messages to either strike fear in a dictator who is massacring citizens nor comfort to the people of Bahrain who certainly do not want Saudi involvement as they work to bring about change.



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Who are his Mercs Blackwater? What country, religion are they from will they stay loyal or will they flee if things get bad?
I saw this a little while ago:
And thought it sounded like an excuse for killing the demonstrators. Whether it’s true or not, it doesn’t look like change is going to come peacefully to Libya. And who will take Gadhafi in? He’s pissed off just about everybody in the world. I doubt that even Kim Jong Ill would grant him sanctuary.
unconfirmed tweets say Chad – but there are equal number of tweets saying so called mercs are indentured laborers
It’s not clear – the Libyans describe them as “African mercenaries” but no one seems definite where they come from.
Not Blackwater … and many may be conscripts or others somehow forced to fight.
To prevent needless bloodshed, the Bush family could display the love for humanity for which they are famous and offer Qadaffi and his son sanctuary at their hacienda in Paraguay.
Likewise, Obama’s billionaire buddies from Goldman Sachs own extensive properties in the Hamptons and other secure locations. Since Obama emptied the US Treasury on their behalf by extending the Bush tax cuts, couldn’t they return the favor by opening their doors to Mr. Qadaffi and his beloved kin?
Europe seems unwilling to criticize him – but a large % of Italian and German oil comes from Libya.
“We are in Tripoli, there are chants [directed at Gaddafi]: ‘Where are you? Where are you? Come out if you’re a man,”
Typical Male Rooster behavior the young are going after the old leader in a male dominance struggle. Questions about leadership the lack of it and or regular male primate behavior settled by combat.
Its best to keep the majority of voters fat and happy that was why Western Democracies used to work so well.
By keeping us fat and happy the males tended not to fight so much.
EU consumes 79% of Libyan Oil
and thanks again Siun for keeping us informed – it became all but impossible to follow events on the ground right after the speech
p.s. Libyan Ambassador to India resigned on BBC Arabic about 90 minutes ago
How many more people have to suffer and die for that black shit anyway? Does every last drop have to be squabbled over and apologized for before we wake the fuck up and find a new energy source?
The Telegraph claims they may be from Chad.
This is sure looking serious for Gadhafi.
“unconfirmed tweets say Chad – but there are equal number of tweets saying so called mercs are indentured laborers ”
Indentured labors who are locals or Arabs can quit and blend in. Africans from Chad have to fight to the end or flee probably fighting their way out either to an airport or across land and drive.
Machiavelli says Mercs such because they fight for cash and not for ideas or their own homeland ( I’m paraphrasing ).
Its interesting the regular army wasn’t called in first are their loyalties in doubt after Egypt? Is every Arab Leader second guessing their army?
He sitting by the phone, waiting for the Bushes’ invitation to come and visit in Paraguay.
AJE is reporting that Libya is arresting Saudi nationals and accusing them of working to destabilize Gaddafi. Something tells me that’s not going to fly in SA.
Also reports of harassment and even shooting of Egyptians trying to leave Libya.
Al Jazeera English (available via Netflix with Roku) has been providing great coverage of these events lately, including footage of an alleged mercenary apprehended by the crowd.
“He also reported that people were riding in army tanks holding weapons from army with the army has mainly gone over to the people but one brigade that is Qaddafi’s personal guard had been holding out and mercenaries are still in the streets.”
If the army has crossed over this is over one brigade and mercs loyal and they try shooting large crowds of innocent people in front of witnesses?
Either the reports are not right or the Col really is crazier and more dangerous than Dick Cheney with a shotgun after a few beers.
Yikes! Gaddafi seems intent on taking the entire Arab world with him into chaos apparently.
Ding! Libya sells something like 80% of their oil to Europe.
That’s what I’m getting also TCU. All of the reporting has Gaddafi defiant but the protesters making significant gains everywhere. Unarmed civilians aren’t doing it alone. Not this fast and this successfully.
The one piece of good news is, since US “Consulate Worker” Raymond Davis was apprehended, there have been no US drone strikes against defenseless Pakistani civilians.
sadly, there was another drone strike today – “5 militants” donchaknow
Demonstrators in Benghazi saying that the military has stopped firing on them.
” arresting Saudi nationals and accusing them of working to destabilize Gaddafi.”
Maybe he wants hostages so he can retire in Saudi Arabia I really can’t see the Saudis trying to take down Gaddafi they have to much to lose if the Arab revolution spreads.
and 64 Afghan civilians – most children killed over last few days by ISAF.
Any of them the ubiquitous “Al Qaeda number 2″?
Forgot to add, Darrell Issa, Barack Obama, etc. are not very happy about this lull in drone attacks. Contributions to their campaign war chests from Boeing and Lockheed Martin are based on the number of drones launched.
Heh!
”Unarmed civilians aren’t doing it alone. Not this fast and this successfully.”
The army has crossed over then and the Col is crazier than Dick Cheney the sight of an Arab Dictaor shot and dragged through the streets will likely scare the crap out of the Arab world and make them crack down harder on rebels much harder Panic Reaction think Bush after 9/11.
Well after he froze reading ” my pet goat” rationality goes away and he invents Ossama links to Iraq. The Arab leaders will likely attack minority groups Jews, Christians, non ruling party Muslim groups and of course foreigners Israel and Americans are at the top of that list.
This should scare wallstreet Mcdonald’s and Starbuck’s all over the Arab world might be attacked.
The US has little leverage over Libya. The European Union buys 79% of Libyan oil production. Watch what the EU does, not what the US says.
Once again, the issue will be decided within the country by how widespread the revolution is. This is not going to be a Jasmine revolution; it is going to be bloody because Gaddafi is determined to stay and he has brought in mercenaries as a hedge against a military coup like Egypt’s. According to Libyans interviewed on AJ, the mercenaries are from Saharan African countries with dictators, like Sudan, Chad and CAR.
It is very interesting that Clinton and Saud issued a joint statement. The “dialogue” line is saying “Don’t make a mess on Saudi Arabia’s borders.” One senses similar pressure on Yemen for similar reasons. The powder keg of course is Saudi Arabia. Hopefully the Saudi royal family are working like crazy to involve the opposition (wait a minute they jailed a bunch of intellectuals). “We don’t need no stinking co-option to keep control here.” The administration is going to be working very hard to wind down Yemen, Bahrain, Jordan, Kuwait, and any other of Saudi Arabia neighbors in a way similar to Tunisia and Egypt. That is where their focus is, not Libya. Oh, and calming Israel’s nerves so Israel does go all pre-emptive or decide to cross into Lebanon again.
Morocco and Syria are booting up. It’s been one day over two months since the Tunisian revolution began. Events are moving very fast.
Comparing with Eastern Europe, in April 1989 Solidarity was made legal and allowed to run in elections. It won the elections in June. In October 1989, Hungary followed. On October 2, 1989, Erich Honecker issued a shoot-to-kill order after that day’s demonstrations. On November 9, with the Czechs allowing East Germans to travel to West Germany, a government official mistakenly announced “other border crossings”; the wall came down. In three weeks, Czechoslovakia had its Velvet Revolution. Ceaucescu had his “Cesucescu moment” December 1989. Bulgarian Communists gave up power February 1990. In March 1992, Communists lost power in Albania. Yugoslavia worked out through separation, civil war, and ethnic cleansing (and a major NATO occupation) until 2008.
The dissolution of the Soviet Union cannot yet be said to have worked through to strong pro-democracy movements.
This is going to be a long struggle that will take up most of this year and no doubt play into the US politics of 2012.
Retirement in Saudi Arabia might not be such a great idea. Saudi Arabia could be next.
Why are we not hearing anything from Saudi Arabia are they all really that happy or is their secret police that good?
Now some Libyan doctor is claiming the mercs are hopped up on some (unspecified) drugs. Dunno about that… Sounds a bit far fetched to me.
Yesterday I read the mercenaries are from Chad, Eritrea and Somalia and are being flown in using Algerian Air Force planes. The article also reported they are being paid $ 30,000. each. They quoted Al Jazeera as the source.
I have also read the protests have spread to Kuwait, Oman, Senegal and Kurdistan.
Plus, the Ivory Coast is shutting down foreign banks. Rumors are spreading that the U S is planning to send in Marines.
From what I’ve seen, the civilians began unarmed but seized weapons as they attacked police stations, etc. In the Sky TV video, you see protesters with some heavy weaponry. I don’t think we’re seeing “the army” crossing over so much as specific brigades doing so. It’s a very fluid situation but with the Muslim scholars yesterday calling for an end to the attacks and now the various large tribes declaring their opposition to Ghaddafi … the numbers opposed and the members of the army opposed is pretty large.
Saudi Arabia has one thing that the rest of Arab world doesn’t have: the US media apparatus has got it’s back.
Reportedly Hosni Mubarak is still in Sharm al-Shaik. He must have considered that possibility too. The Retired Dictators Club in Jeddah must be having some interesting conversations.
For now, their Secret Police is that good.
As if Israel doesn’t have enough to pull its hair out over.
Link.
Today, a Libyan activist on AJ said the mercenaries were paid $500 a day and a bonus of $12,000 for every protester killed. Not sure of the accuracy of the activist’s information.
“The administration is going to be working very hard to wind down Yemen, Bahrain, Jordan, Kuwait, and any other of Saudi Arabia neighbors in a way similar to Tunisia and Egypt.”
Any idea how they plan on doing this I though most of the State Dept and CIA translators and Arab agents were in Iraq or have been busy studying Iraq for years. I doubt they have many people up to speed on events in those other countries or on the ground in those countries.
I agree they will want to do what you say but their ability to do it is what I question.
I wonder if they have a port of call in Lebanon.
Too bad, so sad that the
USIsraeli puppet Mubarak is no longer around to deny them passage.Wow…just Wow…
You have it right about capabilities. That’s what all these tweets about “dialogue” are about. Translation: “We haven’t a clue what to do; you calm down and talk it out. And don’t do anything rash. Hint. Hint. Israel.”
Marines better stay the hell out of this stuff.
Hmmm…who has nukes..Israel, Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, US, Russia, Europe….?
Will Michelle Bachmann be tagging along to be included in the photo shoot when they plant the flag on the Ivory Coast’s Iwo Jima?
The shit hitteth the fan.
That’s no fun. Maybe they’re headed for the French Riviera.
Indeed and our gov’t doesn’t have a clue about what to do. Totally incompetent.
I don’t think Saudi Arabia has nukes, though in reality there are probably some at US bases there.
Thanks for the info. Knowing how impoverished the people in these countries are, I questioned the $ 30,000 figure myself. OTOH, how many people would be willing to risk dying for $ 500.?
Reply is working again ok your link explains why Saudi Arabia could be next and I agree it could but we are not hearing anything out of them Tarheel Dem is right their secret police are that good and Margaret is right the Western Press is in their pocket.
We need intel on Saudi Arabia if they get shaky Obama has to send troops in, oil Prices will spike and Muslims the world over will attack American interests say good buy to american business interest in the Muslim world KBR Mcdonalds etc the Neo Con dream of American economic world empire dies.
I’m not sure..I’ve read that they have, but it’s kinda like Israel..it’s always hush, hush…afterall, the US has supplied India, Israel, etc., with the Saudis being such buddies and all…I just don’t know…
Scary shit.
Aloha, Siun…! Did you see this…
Libyan Army Defects And ‘Liberates’ Benghazi
No sweat. While the entire Middle East is awash with insurrection, the USMC is headed for, wait, the Ivory Coast, because their banks are closed!
If it’s a year’s worth of income, then I’m sure they’d find plenty of volunteers.
Maybe the better question to ask is not will America do but what does Israel want us to do?
Hey, I don’t want the USMC involved! Do you?
FM Lieberman said the other day that ‘it was an act of war’…! Puh-lease…!
That’s key because that’s where our policy comes from. Look at the warp speed 180 when it was rumored that the US would support a UN resolution condemning Israel.
That’s not all. The US Enterprise Carrier Strike Force passed through the Suez Canal headed for the 5th fleet’s home base in Bahrain. It was escourted by a cruise missile carrier.
I don’t follow Uruk but that’s the video I used … good reporting from Sky actually.
It’s stunning news … and now there is talk that men are going from Benghazi to Tripoli to help there.
Bwhahaha
Most likely, the Organization of African Unity will send troops into Cote d’Ivoire if need-be. US Marines are otherwise occupied (or is that occupying).
I’d rather have them play rent-a-cop outside a bank in some remote corner of Africa than anywhere in the ME where someone innocent could get hurt.
Israel is not going to get what it wants us to do. The Arab countries have us by the gas pump.
He won’t live long in Saudi Arabia – they don’t like him much.
Boy…damn good thing the Bush regime defense department isn’t still in control…Oh wait!!
Cite, or it’s a fake.
Last I heard Saudi Arabia wanted a nuclear reactor and Bush was ok with it as far as what western nation was going to sell it to them that I could never find out. But I assumed the fuel would come from us. It takes years to build a reactor so I doubt they have any radioactive fuel yet.
But if they do a dirty bomb is their easiest bet.
However I would trust angry students more than the Saudi royal family with a bomb the kids want jobs and war kills economies.
On the other hand the Saudi royal family funded Ossama. The Western Press I expect will try and insist that Saudi Arabia falling is a big Ossama win. Whether it is or isn’t I don’t know yet.
In fact, they might indeed be on a mission to the French Riviera.
Maybe Sister Sarah will join her. She hasn’t gotten much PR this month.
BTW, Sister Sarah has a new nickname, Snowdrift Snooki (think “Jersey Shore”).
*heh* You should follow Uruknet, they regularly feature your posts…! ;-)
Amazing audio from Tripoli here:
http://audioboo.fm/boos/283732-english-lpc-tripoli-man-hired-african-militias-shooting-protesters-in-the-head-libya-feb17
My bad. I thought I included it. Link.
ah … do they provide attribution?
Oh come on. That happens several times a year.
Yes, Ma’am they do…! ;-)
Me too! That’s my point. I don’t want them anywhere near people trying to force change in their own nations.
They’ve got more important things to be concerned with, such as coming up with another round of tax cuts for the mega-rich.
Too soon?
http://my.firedoglake.com/wendydavis/2011/02/20/state-department-twitters-tokyo-rosey-messages-in-arabicfarsi/
Great I did not want to have to start reading Israeli propaganda to try and figure out just what America will do about the Arab revolts. I doubt America can stay on the sidelines longer strikes in Egypt might spread to the Suez canal blocking oil shipments to the EU. Libya going offline for a week or so as order gets restored won’t be good. Iran, Iraq both have unrest and they are both major oil producers.
The Saudis go and well I can’t even guess how oil prices will rise.
Caller on AJE now – was just at the Green Square hour and half ago … no presence of army but mercenaries or hired thugs … using antiaircraft weapons and there were explosions. …
transcribing as he goes …
*heh* It’s your fault, M’dear, why I’m so late to Siun’s thread…! 8-P
Obama administration is “gravely concerned” re the violence in Libya. That’s a step up from “very concerned” which makes it practically hysteria.
was not in the square – unsafe to actually get there … people running from the square said huge number of dead …
no emergency aid able to get there …
after the speech, pro regime cars driving thru Trip … then at 2AM shooting started … not sure hospitals anticipated the casualties overnight
Libya is cracking. “Pro-Gaddafi supporters” have taken to the streets in Tripoli. Gaddafi’s son spoke to the nation, claiming that the military still supported Gaddafi and that the alternative to Gaddafi is chaos, endangering the oil fields.
At Green Square in Tripoli, the military is not guarding the square but mercenaries are. Large number of dead reported on the square after mercenary attacks on protesters — according to someone near the square who has been talking to protesters. This is like the events of February 2 in Cairo. Protesters estimated the number of mercenaries at a thousand.
What’s next? “Super-crazy concerned”?
Square completely lit … over 1,000 mercenaries … about the same number of protesters who were unarmed …
AJE also reports the State department has said it is “studying the situation” and looking for “clarification”
Wow, AA is usually .50 cal, lead the size of your thumb…! 8-(
Just how many countries can the US send Marines/Army into before we begin depleting our resources? Will that mean the USG will have to withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghanistan?
Just how many countries must we invade before it becomes WWIII?
BTW, for folks who want to watch AJE, the Livestation app is great … also provides BBC World Service on laptop and also provides AJE on phones with livestream
http://www.livestation.com/
all free
They will be heard singing “who let the dogs out.” :)
You are right. My frame of reference is skewed.
I’ve got bad news for you, we’re already badly overextended. One reason I believe that the administration doesn’t mind a jobless recovery because it inevitably boosts recruitment.
A lot of the doctors’ reports comment on the size of the wounds they are treating, that they are completely new to them … huge gaping chest wounds in particular.
Jim White has more on Darrell Issa and his Ray Davis concerns.
“The night they drove ol’ (Gaddafi) down….”
Do you actual speak State Dept diplomaticese or is this a guess? I heard that yes there is a graduated choice of wording the Government uses to describe things have those word choices been formalized can anyone learn?
Sounds like Somali “technicals” equipment.
It caught your eye too!
You might try grabbing the Arabic tweets and running them thru Google Translate which is relatively good with Arabic. They don’t offer Farsi which is very frustrating.
That’s sickening… .50 cal usage on humans is against UN conventions, not that it matters, just saying…! 8-(
Diplomatese is an international language designed not to inflame the hoi-polloi unless the government wants them inflamed.
The Col may be an example of a ruler who puts power over money in which case he won’t leave until he is dead he might not even let his family leave this could get worse.
One more place I do not understand – first reaction is that Gaddafi’s security forces will fight for him because folks hate them – unlike the military having popular approval in Egypt and Tunisia.
Second reaction is that the ave age is 15 – who knows what kids will dare to do – after all Gaddafi overthrew the King 31 years ago on luck – no real overwhelming force – indeed near zero guns.
Third the fact that tribal rules are the process, and security is split up by tribe, makes guessing tribal direction of security force response impossible.
Then Chad mercenaries get tossed in (who saw this coming????!!!!) and I can’t guess what a dictator that has lost his second largest city – he only has 3 where almost all the people live – will do.
So once again I’ll just watch and hope that the fewest possible get hurt.
The Draft.
look for oil to spike up when the US market opens on Tues. Libya not a big producer but investors nervous and speculators love it.
The other major powers (Russia, China, India) are sitting on the sidelines watching the “Holy American Empire” as it progresses in its descent into bankrupcy and collapse. The US does not need an external power to bring about its collapse. It is very well equipped to bring it about on its own, thank you.
“Diplomatese is an international language designed not to inflame the hoi-polloi unless the government wants them inflamed.”
Next question just why is the American State Dept being so nice to Libya? I don’t see an Israel angle here but I may be wron on this. I don’t see him as a friend of America like Mubarak . I don’t see him as an ally in the war on terror like Tunisia unless George Bush was smoking crack.
Is Libya’s oil that important to the world economy?
I would watch for sabotage of some oil fields.
But it costs $1,000,000 per year per soldier. You could put a heck of a lot more people in prison per year at that rate. If the US is sincere about maintaining a sound economy, it needs to put more people in prison instead of in uniform. Economics 101.
Why not? By far the best thing to do. They see the US as needing humbling and they’re right in my opinion.
Where do you get that figure? Because at the best I only ever made a bit over 16,000 a year as an AMS-2 (E-5). Maybe in a war zone that’s what it costs to arm and equip them but that’s not the average service wide. Only a few percentage points of soldiers are front line troops and most of them aren’t serving on the front lines at any given time.
On edit: Besides, this isn’t about the “economy”, it’s about having the manpower to keep their fucking wars going.
“look for oil to spike up when the US market opens on Tues. Libya not a big producer but investors nervous and speculators love it.”
If these reports are true between this news and the Suez canal workers striking
“The military has twice warned Egyptians not to strike. Even so, at least 1,500 employees of the Suez Canal Authority protested for better pay, housing and benefits Thursday in three cities — just one example of workers nationwide using this opportunity to voice long-held grievances. ”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110218/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt
Then yes your right but the Suez canal also hurts any company that exports or imports goods it won’t just be oil hurting Tuesday.
that’s why we do both
While the end of the American Empire looks like an attractive prospect, there are serious implications for what replaces the international security arrangements that the US has put into place since 1945. Progressives need to get ahead of the curve on discussing the policy that progressives should advocate for. Opposition is no longer enough; we need to clarify a vision for the future. And what the shape of the US national security institutions need to be support that policy.
It already has gone up…
Asia stocks tumble on Mid East tensions, oil up
That number stuck in my mind, so I was pretty sure I was right.
Link.
AJ says the Warfalla tribe (largest in east Libya where the fields are) has claimed they will close the wells.
I think the only place we need to have troops is South Korea. They would be overrun in the first week if we left. And, of course, the ME is up for grabs no matter what we do.
A) I don’t see a link and
B) Like I said, that’s got to be for front line troops. Roughly ten percent of all service people. You need to stop using such a broad brush. 100 troops doesn’t = cost of 100 million dollars unless they are all combat troops. the average service wide is much lower.
Yes, guess it’s called hedging your bet. If you bet both sides, you can’t lose.
of course, forgot about other markets being open
17Feb Libya has new videos from this night in Trip:
http://www.libyafeb17.com/
They’re just taking 3.6 billion dollars and dividing by 51,000 troops, is that it? I agree it’s abominable but we’re splitting hairs here. My original comment was only peripherally connected with the economy anyway. It was about having the bodies to support their fucking wars, not how much money they’re spending.
Twain, having served in Korea, that is just not true…! Our forces there have no real impact on deterring the North… We were regularly briefed that we were just a ‘speed bump’…! And, our actual prescence there does piss off the majority of the South Koreans…!
You and I are definitely of like mind on that one. I have strongly believed for a long time that the high rate of unemployment has been one of the military’s best recruiting tools. Criminal offenders are another source and that’s quite troubling, primarily because of what they face when returning to the US – no jobs.
A) Linky.
B) Although the claim was never made that sarcasm is an exact science, you can still throw a whole lot more people in the clink than to suit them up to play army man.
Thanks for the correction. I worry about the South Koreans and I thought they were glad to have us for protection. Do they have the military to hold off all those North Koreans troops?
Well I’ve known it since 1985 when I joined because I’d been unemployed for a year and friends were getting tired of my hanging around all the time.
More:
AJELive AJELive
by Potterybarnmerc
#AlJazeera guest reports that injured protesters arriving at #Tripoli hospitals are being killed by pro-gov forces #Libya
23 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
Ish
ishras Ish
by Shnesh
@cnnbrk EYEWITNESS from GreenSquare:”Saw 1 person shot in the head before my eyes, 2 injured” #Libya #Tripoli #Feb17 http://boo.fm/b283775
9 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
Mother Jones
MotherJones Mother Jones
by brianpiero
RT @ClaraJeffery: AlJazeera Arabic confirms injured protesters arriving at #Tripoli hospitals are being killed by pro-gov forces #Libya
Many have been saying for years that K was a mad man. I guess we now have proof.
*heh* We’d joined up in the same year…! ;-)
These people are vicious..sick, sick, sick.
The sort of thinking we need to do goes way beyond where we have forward-deployed troops; maybe we don’t need forward-deployed troops at all. Maybe South Korea’s security could be supported within the region instead of by a global power. We are in as fundamental a time of change as 1815, 1920, or 1945.
Again…and try to understand this. What has any of this to do with PAY? I’m talking about keeping enough bodies in uniform to support their wars of aggression. How did we get off on the tangent of the cost of keeping a soldier in uniform vs the cost of keeping somebody locked up? Please read this comment this time! It has NOTHING to do with COST and everything to do with ENOUGH BODIES IN UNIFORM. The money it takes to KEEP them in uniform is IRRELEVANT to my point.
They’ve got a large standing army that can protect itself…! Those ROK’s are some bad ass dudes I might add…! ;-)
Did we really? I was one of only five people in my company who could legally drink upon graduation (25). Did you join old too?
Crazier than dick with a shotgun and a few beers Yikes!
Yeah, you don’t fuck with the ROKs. Something about being in a state of war with a vastly larger enemy for the last 60 years will do that.
CNN doing special coverage – getting some callers …
on twitter,reports of 100 dead at Trip hospital … unconfirmed
CNN…Don Lemon..geesh…reporting on the “unrest” in Libya..just showed a picture of people strolling around at night, and he said it’s hard to believe there’s unrest there looking at those videos…Good grief. All of the old Libyan exilers are on..planning their imminent return no doubt. Same old shit.
We need to get rid of all our ‘lilypads’, first and foremost…! 8-(
Tweet from Sultan Al Qassemi: A full transcript of my live tweet translation of Saif Al Islam Gaddafi’s address on one page http://bit.ly/fAVeCz Thanks to @exiledsurfer
Glad you’re watching it. Now I don’t feel bad about skipping CNN. ;)
“trip wire” not “speed bump”. The role of US troops in Korea is to be the dead soldiers who bring the US full force into a large-scale war. With the potential use of nuclear weapons (right!). So far for whatever strange reasons (China believes the US is crazy) the deterrence has worked. The kabuki has persisted for almost 60 years. I think there might be another arrangement (given the interest of China in stability) to accomplish the same thing without US troops being there. Apparently so does the ROK government. They are in closer trade and diplomatic relationships with China. And the security concern of both of them is likely a rearmed Japan (after a US withdrawal of troops and the corresponding inclusion under the “nuclear umbrella”.
I’ve been told older Korean vets want us there, not so much the younger ones but the recent attacks by the North changed some minds. North has numbers but very outdated equipment, South is highly trained with very deadly new equipment. Could probably hold their own but too bloody to think about.IMHO (have family living there)
Kim is unstable and very dangerous, I believe.
*heh* I was a doofus and enlisted straight out of High School for the ‘college fund’, but, I was legal to drink in Hawaii already and all Army posts allowed 18 yro’s to drink on post until, I believe ’89 or so…! ;-)
Yep. When we are forward-deployed, we are always looking around for someone new to be forward-deployed against. Sometimes isolation is realpolitik.
Actually, he was reporting on how Libyan State TV is making it look ok … he was not saying it was.
Just a clarification.
Oh yeah, the over 18s could drink on base, true but there were only five of us in my company who could drink everywhere. It was great when I got to A school, I could go off base but most of my contemporaries were stuck with the E club.
What about the military taking orders from him. They are the critical folks.
…“trip wire” not “speed bump”. The role of US troops in Korea is to be the dead soldiers who bring the US full force into a large-scale war…
You’re right about the trip wire, but, we were still a mere speed bump…! ;-)
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Al Jazeera: Touareg Source: The Touareg Tribe in Southern Libyan towns of Obari & Ghat joined the protesters demanding end to Gaddafi rule
I’m glad you clarified that..I was like “say whaaaa?”
Agreed. My study of history is that the most likely demise of the US will come from within. When you consider BRIC, where do you think Brazil fits in?
For me, we were busy training day in and day out to fight the Soviet Union when it was painfully obvious to anybody paying the least attention that the Soviet Union had much bigger problems and were really unlikely to start any shit.
Under the strategy, you didn’t even have to slow them down. If deterrence failed, Seoul was occupied. The deterrence was what would happen next, from outside of Korea.
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
. @AJArabic: Libya’s largest & most powerful tribe, the Warfala has joined the anti-Gaddafi protesters
I can never tell if he’s “smart crazy” or just “crazy ass crazy”
This Quick News at LibyaFeb17.Com caught my eye: “BREAKING – Alarabiya.net: Gaddafi is headed to Venezuela or Brazil on private jet.” Who will be the first to freeze his assets?
Two things I never thought I’d say in my lifetime:
I admire the courageous Egyptian people.
I admire the courageous Libyan people.
Which is where we came in.
iyad_elbaghdadi Iyad El-Baghdadi
by Sandmonkey
OK, Reuters just confirmed our earlier tweets about #Libya army special brigade joining the people and liberating #Benghazi!
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Breaking Al Jazeera: Reuters: Members of Libyan Army announce their split & the liberation of Benghazi from Gaddafi’s forces
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Haaretz: Agencies: Witnesses: Libya army says Benghazi ‘liberated’ from pro-Ghadafi forces http://bit.ly/icdeyZ
More on that:
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/114364/20110221/libya.htm
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Al Jazeera: Arrested Libyan Islamic Scholar Al Sadeq Al Gheryani issued a Fatwa (Islamic edict) via Al Jazeera in support of the protesters.
Please contact me…~~~EDITED IN MODERATION~~~
I may be able to assist you.
*aaargh* Ivory Coast Police Fire On Crowd
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Al Jazeera: Eyewitness: Protesters take full control of Bayda town. (1250 km East of Tripoli. Population 210,000 in 2006)
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Al Jazeera: Senior Tabu tribal leader: All of the Tabu Tribe members in Southern Libya have joined the protesters to end Gaddafi’s regime.
It all depends on what you see as the international security structure that replaces the US. The options are (1) US does not go easily; (2) chaos as the US withdraws from forward-deployment and bluewater navy duties; (3) UN transformed into a world government (right!); (4) devolution into city states and hinterlands in most parts of the world; (5) Chinese hegemony; (6) BRIC-US-EU balance of power system; (7) some other arrangement of balanced regional security; (8) overlapping collective security agreements. On the last point, the US is in the OAS, NATO, various Pacific alliances. China has spearheaded an Asian collective security agreement, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization of which Russia and the -stans are members; Russia also maintains its Commonwealth of Independent States. Egypt is a member of both the Arab League and the Organization of African Unity. The interplay of these collective security organizations through their overlapping members could provide a non-hegemonic form of global stability. Not out of the goodness of their hearts but from the complex balances of power they would provide.
Incoming
the new global economy is making nations so interdependent it may be very hard to wage future wars (at least among major powers)i.e. who would supply Wal-mart if we warred with China? etc.
The rumor that Ghaddafi has left the country keeps circulating … no idea if true though my gut says he’ll stay
I’m generally cautious about Al Arabiya news … they run a bit too often with rumor and love an exciting headline.
That has never stopped testosterone in the past. But your statement brings up an idea that Buckminster Fuller had during the Cold War (in the 1960s to be exact). The US should link its electric grid to that of Russia (then the Soviet Union). It would create efficiencies. And it would deter nuclear attack because who wants to destroy their counter-diurnal peak-load backup.
According to several unconfirmed reports coming out of Libya, Gaddafi fled the country and is now in Venezuela.
Who owns al-Arabiya?
Venezuela as a destination for Gaddafi makes a lot of sense. If he survives, that is likely where he winds up.
I don’t have a cell phone, Siun.
Clean up in aisle 170, Lurk…! ;-)
I suspect that the Libyan military is not pleased with Gaddafi’s decision to hire mercenaries from Chad and Niger to slaughter their brothers and sisters in the streets. I doubt the military will remain loyal to Gaddafi. Some units already have joined the protesters.
Despite the ongoing massacre of protesters in Tripoli by the mercenaries, I think the military will turn against them, wipe them out, and the Libyan people can join the Tunisian and Egyptian people and chalk up another win for the people against the terrible dictators.
I have received no mail from you. My primary account is with Bellsouth. They have now become part of AT&T. AT&T has merged their mail service with Yahoo. It is beyond FUBAR.
Do you have a throw-away e-mail you can post? If not, can a moderator put us in touch? If so, how do I accomplish that?
Have no idea why you think that’s likely or suitable, but Venezuelan govt has denied that Gaddafi is headed there to Dima Khatib of Al Jazeera English.
peggyanne78731 (at) yahoo
Given the state of the Middle East, he is unlikely to seek sanctuary in any Arab country. Where else does Gaddafi have friends? That’s why it makes sense.
Yeah, IsIs @ 168 points to the International Business Times’ headline, “Libyan unrest spreads to Tripoli amidst rumors Gaddafi has fled to Venezuela” (Feb. 20, 2011, 9:24 PM EST ; bold my emphasis).
Recall how Dept. of State Clinton was just recently in Germany making statements about Egypt? Well there’s this today: ‘“Massive Collapse” For Angela Merkel Following Today’s Hamburg Election As Germans “Just Say No” To More European Bail Outs‘ (by Tyler Durden on 02/20/2011 16:37 -0500)
hadn’t heard that Fuller story, interesting. I’m thinking (guessing) the big CEO’s will keep the testosterone boys in check. Money trumps all?
Teddy Partridge is upstairs…
Sunday Late Night: Questions for Senator Jeff Merkley?
Well, I’m going to call it a night and grab some sleep. I’ll say a prayer for the Libyan people and hopefully when I wake up Gaddafi will be gone, peace will be throughout the land, and their future will be in their own capable hands.
Will Bahrain be next?
And what about the revolting House of Saud?
Good night.
I tend to agree. I don’t think Qaddafi would be relying on foreign mercenaries to put down the Libyan Revolution if he could trust his own Army. Indeed, with reports of gains for the revolutionaries in the face of a brutal crackdown, I wonder if elements of the regular Libyan Army might already have flipped, and might be fighting for the Revolution? How else could revolutionaries – unarmed, or armed only with improvised weapons – be making gains against ruthless enemies armed with machine guns and willing to use them?
I emphasize that this is just speculation on my part – I am not claiming to have direct evidence of any of the above.
So far I haven’t heard anything about revolution, or even protest, in Saudi Arabia. But stay tuned …
Saudis. Specifically, King Fahd’s brother-in-law. (I’m no expert on Arab media, but know this because the AngryArab, As’ad AbuKhalil, makes a point to include this info just about every time he cites coverage in Al Arabiya.)
He’s got a big friend in Berlusconi. Italy buys a third of Libya’s oil exports. OTOH, the timing’s not great for Berlusconi… and it would increase Qaddafi’s risk of prosecution for some of his many human rights outrages.
But Chavez would be buying huge trouble. The rumors persist, but so far, that’s all they are.
Last week in Arabia, ruled for now by the house of Saud, some citizens bravely called for the formation of a political party (parties are illegal there). They have been arrested and told they won’t be released unless they recant.
The regime is holding four members of the new group. Demand that the U.S. government press for their unconditional release.