UPDATE – 10:30 AM EST – AJE live eporter saw one youth protester grabbed by mubarak thugs, dragged him to right in front of military and brutally beat him. She believes his life was only saved by more fighting distracting the thugs. The military did nothing.
The protesters remain in control of the center of the square.
CNN Anderson Cooper has just seen another Molotov cocktail thrown by pro-Mubarak sources.
AJE live – reporting pro-government forces trying to drive a military vehicle into the square. The clashes are on the approach roads to the square.
Ben Wedeman of CNN tweeted earlier:
bencnn As my colleague Fred reports, they are employees of National Petroleum Company ordered to demonstrate for Mubarak #Jan25 #Egypt
We are all Khaled Said asks ” I wonder where did Mubarak’s thugs g…ot guns & horses from? Aren’t they normal citizens like us as National TV say?”
UPDATE – 10:15 AM EST – CNN now showing live scenes from the square –“ ProMubarak forces turn violent” attacked from multiple directions, carrying knives and machetes, Ivan Watson reports seeing serious injuries below his vantage point. Anti-Mubarak protesters are building barricades to try to protect themselves from the “regime supporters” but they are surrounded. CNN International reporting pro-Mubarak thugs tossing molotov cocktails at the protesters.
mitchellreports El baradei live on Al Jaz asking US and EU to help – calling on army to stop chaos
ElBaradei “What is happening now is a crime against Egypt”
CNN’s Anderson Cooper describes army as sitting on the sidelines and not intervening.
CNN’s Ivan Watson reporting that the protesters have been able to beat back the thugs from his location.
The military has visibly retreated from certain areas, especially around the American University in Cairo campus and the part of Tahrir Square leading into AbdelMoneim Riad Square and Ramses Street.
Youth leaders of the anti-Mubarak demonstrations are calling on all of those who were in Tahrir Square yesterday to make their way to Tahrir Square now “to save the revolution from the thugs.”
They believe that the army intentionally retreated from certain areas to allow a certain degree of leeway for pro-Mubarak protests.
“They must come, that is the only way we can avoid a bloody battle,” one of the organizers of the anti-Mubarak demonstrations said. “They want it to be a battle between civilians and we don’t want to be that. We want people to appear so we can have the same safety in numbers that we had before.”
UPDATE – 10:00 AM EST – What we’re seeing is a concerted effort by Mubarak thugs to put down the uprising with attacks not just at the square but against press offices:
Al Masry Al Youm, independent Egyptian daily is evacuating offices “after reports that the independent daily Al-Shourouk’s headquarter in Mohandessin is being targeted by thugs.”
Even though their own crews have been attacked in the square, CNN is covering “troubled teachers” in the US. #epic fail
If ANYONE has any doubt, please don’t. I can definitely confirm that protesters have arrested some of the government thugs and they all have Police IDs. (Omana2 shorta we Mokhbereen). They were told they have to carry Police IDs in case the army arrests them so that they can be let go afterwards. They attack journalists more than protesters.
Tear gas is being fired into the crowd – believed to be coming from the army. It seems to be concentrated at the main point of clash. The army had previously called for everyone to clear the streets and return to normalcy. Warning shots being heard.
There are reports that the military initially removed their position blocking one entrance to the square allowing the thugs to enter.
UPDATE – 9:30 AM EST – Pro-Mubarak thugs attacking square on horseback and on foot. Al Jazeera reports at least 100 wounded, targeted attacks on any visible media by the thugs.
UPDATE: 9:10 AM EST – Thousands of “pro-Mubarak” thugs have decended on Tahrir Square and are attacking the protesters, gunfire has been heard – Al Jazerre-English live at video link following. The situation is not clear but it looks like Mubarak has decided to try to take control of the Square in this way – and so far the military is not able or perhaps willing to stop them.
- – - – -
While protesters continue to stay in Tahrir Square and promise to stay until Mubarak goes, President Obama continues to try to have it both ways and Tony Blair is running from interview to interview trying to drum up fear of an “Islamic” takeover of Egypt and proclaiming Mubarak “immensely courageous and a force for good” in an interview with Piers Morgan on CNN.
“I don’t think the west should be the slightest bit embarrassed about the fact that it’s been working with Mubarak over the peace process but at the same time it’s been urging change in Egypt,” he said.
One comment the Guardian did not report but which was particularly striking was a response to Morgan’s questioning why the UK and US went to war on Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein but did not insist that Mubarak go. Blair – with a look of outrage said: “Mubarak is no Saddam!”
Robert Fisk, certainly the best western reporter on the Middle East, may not have heard Blair’s nonsense from the streets of Cairo but his latest column is an ideal response:
And then there was the absence of the “Islamism” that haunts the darkest corners of the West, encouraged – as usual – by America and Israel. As my mobile phone vibrated again and again, it was the same old story. Every radio anchor, every announcer, every newsroom wanted to know if the Muslim Brotherhood was behind this epic demonstration. Would the Brotherhood take over Egypt? I told the truth. It was rubbish. Why, they might get only 20 per cent at an election, 145,000 members out of a population of 80 million.
A crowd of English-speaking Egyptians crowded round me during one of the imperishable interviews and collapsed in laughter so loud that I had to bring the broadcast to an end.
Fisk goes on to discuss Obama’s response:
Amazingly, there was little evidence of hostility towards America although, given the verbal antics of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton these past eight days, there might have well been. One almost felt sorry for Obama. Had he rallied to the kind of democracy he preached here in Cairo six months after his investiture, had he called for the departure of this third-rate dictator a few days ago, the crowds would have been carrying US as well as Egyptian flags, and Washington would have done the impossible: it would have transformed the now familiar hatred of America (Afghanistan, Iraq, the “war on terror”, etc) into the more benign relationship which the US enjoyed in the balmy 1920s and 1930s and, indeed, despite its support for the creation of Israel, into the warmth that existed between Arab and American into the 1960s.
But no. All this was squandered in just seven days of weakness and cowardice in Washington – a gutlessness so at odds with the courage of the millions of Egyptians who tried to do what we in the West always demanded of them: to turn their dust-bowl dictatorships into democracies. They supported democracy. We supported “stability”, “moderation”, “restraint”, “firm” leadership (Saddam Hussein-lite) soft “reform” and obedient Muslims.
And so Wednesday morning arrives in Tahrir Square. The protests will go on – and there’s some worry as Mubarak thugs are making an appearance:
We are all Khaled Said Welcome to Mubarak’s transitions period: Moments after Mubarak finished his speech. Hundreds of government thugs carrying knives & weapons are attacking protesters in Cairo, alexandria and Portsaid so far. A man of his word he is.
And the Al Jazeera liveblog points to this from twitter:
6:31am Tweet by Jeremy Scahill, the author Blackwater: The Rise of the World’s Most Powerful Mercenary Army:
Private Security Firms are in Egypt evacuating businessmen. Among them: Control Risks, International SOS & Diligence
“El sha’ab yureed eskat el nezam”!
(“the people want to collapse the [current] system”).





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Siun will update situation in Egypt momentarily.
I had a post about the conditions but it was eaten by a power outage here in blizzard country. Anybody in line of blizzard, make sure you charge your cell phones and laptops now.
Bush’s poodle is still around?
Woman on the ground there saying that the thugs and troublemakers are showing up in government buses and trucks.
The mask is off American imperialism. Not that people in the rest of the world haven’t recognized it for decades (in some cases more than a century), but it is now apparent even to the most opaque (including myself). The widening distance between US words and US actions is important, because nations that have normally been allied with the United States — out of self-interest, but also out of some shared ideals–will now support the US only out of self-interest. It is not obvious that Europe’s self-interest here is that of the United States.
Even Egyptians are fed up with Obama’s incrementalism which is just a fancy word for status quo or corporate control over people.
Mubarak’s police thugs are trying to drown the Egyptian revolution in blood. Meanwhile Obama is doing a perfect impersonation of Jimmy Carter’s sucking up to the Shah. All Americans should be demanding that Obama denounces the Mubarak regime’s fascist tactics and calls for him to step down. Any other course amounts to support for this atrocity.
The Internet in Egypt is back up.
Fisk is a good reporter but how is he on predictions – a lot of folks predicted Hamas’s small membership meant they would not get a lot of votes – and then Hamas’s got 43% to Fatah’s 41%
America, under Obama, is so completely morally bankrupt we ignore the people who have suffered torture and disappearances by “their” government and embrace their torture master and say it’s ok to torture till September.
Why, who else would torture for us as good as these animals that do the torture to those we rendition ? (formally known as kidnapping)
We’re nuts to worry about Israel, over our and the world’s interest, who’s claim to fame is what they said God said to them,”chosen”. The only God that supported operation cast lead was Satin.
At least all of the people watching Al Jazeera can clearly see which of the groups is fomenting the violence we are seeing today.
It’s like seeing Egyptian Woodstock being overrun by an Egyptian Teabag Party.
Obama and Blair are cowards.
Nice analogy. I’m seeing all genders and ages among the anti Mubarak crowd but only young men among the pro Mubarak crowd. Can there be much doubt that they are on the government payroll?
Fisk, for those of us that have been reading him for years, is a very predictor good of the results of american imperialism and terrorism. He is also probably the most knowledgeable of “western” journalists and has lived lo these many years in Lebanon. Believe what he says.
Gotta love Robert Fisk. In addition to his understanding of the situation, he writes beautifully.
Anti-Mubaraks making citizens arrests, handing thugs over to army, checking IDS first & finding they are police. AJ
Just one more reason to keep my promise never to watch Piers Morgan.
Oh, and in case anyone’s forgotten this, that 9/11″hijacker”, Mohammed Atta, was an officer in the Egyptian Air Force at one point in his life, maybe still is.
Second that.
Don’t know as I ever heard that about Atta. Do you have a link?
Yep. AJE is saying that there are pictures of the anti Mubarak people holding up police IDs taken from the pro Mubarak thugs.
Zero (Obama) is on the side of the puppet dictator and his thugs.
American influence in Egypt and the region will be cut to near zero in the aftermath of these popular revolutions.
Not in his wiki, and according to that he spent most of him time after college in Egypt either studying in Germany or on the hajj or in jihad. So when was he in Egyptian Air Force?
The only way to stop this now is for the army to order the american puppet to leave, now, and then take over the streets to restore order. The supporters of the discredited puppet would soon vanish into the mists faced with an interim military government.
Fuck Øbama.
Amazing stuff.
Now cue the US media to draw a false equivalency between the government thugs and the peaceful protesters…
From the Guardian:
Listen to the audio here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/feb/02/egypt-protests-live-updates#block-38
Note that the Pentagon is fully informed of what is going on with the Egyptian police now moving back in.
Coordination? Yes.
Mubarak sending in his secret police and police along with the crumbsnatchers to cause violence and chaos – thus he thinks the need to keep him in power for a “smooth” “authorized” transion (aka another 8 months of theft to follow 30 years).
Seems kind of stupid since its clear he and his (paid – the crumbsnatchers just below the 1-percenters) supporters are causing the chaos and violence.
They did not learn there lesson in 30 years, and they never will.
I hope people wake up and see that when you see 30 years of something – what you see is what you have gotten and what you will get.
Now they just want to kill a few more people, control the transtion, and steal anything that’s left. How long until they bust into the museum which is right in the “no man’s land” between the peaceful and correct pro-Democracy supporters & the violent and incorrect pro-Mubarak/anti-Democracy thugs.
I believe the phrase is: Game Over
Fisk is no doubt a fantastic reporter especially on things to do with the Middle East but he is, of course, not the President of the US. Obama’s statement last night was pretty strong I thought and basically withdrew any support for Mubarak. So, it’s strange to read some of the comments here. BTW, did you know that Obama administration invited members of the Muslim Brotherhood to his speech in Cairo? That it has said it will engage with Muslim Brotherhood (as well as others) regarding the new leadership in Egypt?
Obama is not Bush whatever you guys say here. This comment I thought was particularly ludicrous: “America, under Obama, is so completely morally bankrupt we ignore the people who have suffered torture and disappearances by “their” government and embrace their torture master and say it’s ok to torture till September.” as it makes it sound like everything was fine under someone other than Obama. Obama hasn’t said anything about saying it’s ok for Mubarak to stay til September in any event!
From DemocracyNow.Org correspondence, Sharif Kouddous:
Egyptian govt owned channel will certainly do that.
Wouldn’t be a bit surprised if U.S. media did it too.
Guest on democracynow this morning was very savvy, not only about how M. sends in the thugs, but then uses the resultant chaos to underline how impt it is for him to say in place to maintain law & order.
Although hoping for a kind of ‘velvet revolution,’ there is a sense this might get violent. Now pro-Mubarak thugs show up brandishing knives, clubs, and other weapons? Will the army protect the people against the police/thugs? I have heard the Egyptian military is split; is this so? I’ve also heard that the military gave Mubarak until Friday to leave; is this so? It is beginning to take too long to resolve this situation–like a boil needing lanced. Makes me fear it will only get bloody within the next few days, if not hours.
Keryst a bloody Øbamabot once again not seeing the forest for the trees. The guy in the WH is a lying, sniveling, piece of shit….is that clear enough for you?
poor TONY POODLE
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8293432/Egyptian-riots-put-Tony-Blairs-holiday-in-peril.html
surge by thugs, overturn military vehicle in end of dead zone
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Is anyone else havin’ trouble accessin’ Al Jazeera this mornin’? My provider won’t connect me and I’ve had it on “favorites” for 4 days now.
And why won’t Tony Blair just go away…my God, he has absolutely no self respect left. But I wanna know if anyone else is gettin’ the Al Jazeera feed?
Remember 1968 and…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE NEXT POLICE RIOT WILL BE OUR OWN!!
Timing by Mubarak was well planned – wait until after the 1 million march and speech whhen many had to return home.
How many guns ready to be distributed, or pulled from under clothing.
Hope they don’t make the peacful protesters pay in blood before they get freedom. Or worse that everyone arms and fights.
the USG and BRITAIN probably signed off on this foolishness
The USG and Britain are terrified that losing Egypt will result in losing the Mid-East, but like a wise man once said, all good things must come to an end.
Mubarak and his thugs actions are going to cause other Arab Dictators to Fall quickly, because the images coming out of Egypt will create more outrage on the Arab Street, that is dominated by poor youth, who view these Old USA Puppet dictators as their enemy.
Obama, Tony, and the global elite are apparently scambling for ways to keep Mubarak in power, the idea of putting thugs on the street that love Mubarak is very, very, STUPID!!!
again I repeat having a lot of money does not make one smart!
Pro-Mubaraks take high ground on top of bldgs & are throwing rocks down on anti-Mubaraks. National Museum is on the front line.
yeah, good argument that. must win you a lot of converts to the cause.
Sharif Kouddous Tweets:
thugs moving forward to square “following” behind a military vehicle.
I think Rahm moved on to another blog to drop a little turd.
Mubarak is going to wake up the sleeping GIANT!!!
Yet again OBAMA, lack of leadership, will lead to the MID-EAST going up in smoke
a thousand people vs a million people I am betting on the million
One reason many believe Zero lacks moral integrity is that he keeps piling up the bodies and spilling blood in Afghanistan to prop up another corrupt regime there.
Obama is a corrupt tool. And if he can keep the military in power in Egypt for another 30 years, he will.
Good Morning Siun and Firedogs -
via twitter –
apparently he’s just not that in to you Barack
Mine cut in and out several times but has been fairly reliable since. (about thirty minutes now)
the USA and Britain want this to happen, the idea being, they can get another dictator to take over Egypt, Yes they are this stupid
FWIW, CNN banner reading pro-mubarak forces turn violent.
he is amoral
Gunshots from the square and then pro Government cops came running back!
it’s all Obama’s fault…
I grant you that Fisk is excellent on long term predictions for America’s military adventures, but I do not recall him being spot on as to election predictions – anywhere. I would not take to 20% that the MB got in the prior elections that were Mubarak fraud games as an indicator of future voting power.
Of course, that is the only indicator we have. But the fact that the top of MB are some of the best and the brightest in Egypt make me think they could do better with a bit of advertising and a harsher platform toward Israel and a bit more on Sharia law as a “right”. Christian “rights” may have a short lifespan.
Wow! That’s remarkably….journalistic of them.
Heh. Ban Ki Moon has apparently figured out Mubarak is behind the attacks. Issued statement implying that and that it was “unacceptable.” (I hate that wishy washy word, but that’s another story.)
Pro gvt people in full flight now
escalation above rock-throwing seems about to come in square. Of course lots of bloody heads since a rock to the head is very violent in itself.
Hope the thugs realize they are starting a tit-for-tat they they won’t win unless the military backs them – that there will be a counter to this.
Seems like other entrances to square are blocked by the thugs as well.
I hope some leader gets some balls for the people rather than their own interests (be it Moo-Barack, Barack, and Blair is not an leader he is an ex-com).
ex-con
WOW! That’s a welcome change. Thanks. Still have no TV so no idea how U.S. media are reporting it.
I appreciate that it’s difficult for you to understand that there might be people who disagree with your take on things (I’m generously referring to it as a “take” as it’s difficult to discern anything of real substance) but really not everyone who disagrees with you is an Obot or Rahm or any one of the Obama villains you all love to hate so much.
In any event, it shouldn’t matter who I am. Look, if all you guys and girls want is to have one big self-righteous circle jerk of a blog, go to it. If, instead, you want to debate things and share genuinely held opinions then really do avoid resorting to childish endeavours.
From the Guardian:
Richard Engel thankfully keeping it real – pointing out they are not simply Pro Mubarak, but state sponsored provocateurs
Mubarak and Obama share a lot of same traits, both are complete cowards!
both also work for the top 1% of their nations
now the 99% wants change, and they run and lie!
“neutral” zone back to museum.
Likely surge by people, but thugs may charge with horses/camels as they did before. Moltov cocktails coming out now slowly.
No more pat downs for people getting the the square – so more knives, guns, moltov coming in.
Less than 8,000 signatures (collection rate is 1 signature per second) to go for 0.5 Million international signatures by Avaaz.Org for solidarity with Egyptian people.
cant get AJ,can somebody post their working link
help ?
our power was out until 40 minutes ago – Did or did not the Army ask people to leave Tahrir Square a few hours ago ?
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
I haven’t heard that but it’s pretty chaotic.
CNN reporting it from earlier that the pro-Mubarak (thugs) started it. That they charged, whipped, and threw rocks at the peaceful protester.
That there are undercover police in the thugs.
Likely did not help that they punched, kicked, pushed the CNN reporters and seemed to be in part targeting the media.
Gosh, these leaders must think people are so fucking stupid.
Fucking Mubarak – 30 years of thugdom is not enough?
Obama is a corrupt tool. And if he can keep the military in power in Egypt for another 30 years, he will.
what a bunch of hooey or are you now his chief of staff? did you hear or read his statement yesterday? How can you reconcile what he said with what you’ve said or is it just that everything that comes out of his mouth must be a lie?
you dont know who you are adressing….Echan has a very open mind,and always asks for links,that said you are a concern troll
http://english.aljazeera.net
http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al-jazeera-english-english
Works across ComCast …
http://aljazeera.net/portal
is up and steady
The English version is on and off – mostly off – this morning.
Is it possible that AJ is raising the bar for journalistic standards? May be too soon to tell. Or maybe so much of the world is watching that they’re afraid to put the US spin on what is so obvious to so many.
Still, yes, it’s nice to see.
What’s the point of fighting over whether Mubarak leaves now or in Sept? He played his role well for 30 years. Those who put him there and have kept him there have known for a while that they need to transition to the next asshole. Why not let the people feel like they’ve played an important role in the ouster of Mubarak and the rise of the next asshole?
If the Egyptian people really want change, they should focus on creating a new constitution and on figuring out how their next leaders will be chosen.
Otherwise, they’ll end up with more of the same after Mubarak is gone.
What do you expect from a corporatist, Republican douchebag?
YES! US demand for AJ English very large. Get the details at Democracy Now broadcast for Feb. 1, 2011 up now.
I hope we request that the military consider taking out the front lines of the thug crowd.
They are not peaceful, thus not part of the army pledge.
But what they are doing is trying to force everyone to violence – since they are better armed, better trained, better paid, better organized, and they LIKE violence. On the other side they are going to be outnumbered vastly – so in the end will be destroyed.
Twitter: cnnbrk -Tear gas fired as protests in Cairo’s Tahrir Square turn violent. http://on.cnn.com/fQu1WX
Pro Mubarak = Pro USA = Pro Israel, forces fighting for you guess it the Global Elites.
Obama must be watching in horror, saying if this does not work, who takes over Egypt?
the Egyptian military is clearly not under the control of Mubarak, which is very interesting.
Could be. I know a whooooole lot of people have been watching AJ and asking WTF? Why can’t we get actual journalism instead of plastic, talking heads?
thank you,dont lose yours,it wont come up again
well I was referring to his post that seemed to imply that I was Rahm in disguise which seemed to me like a bit of a cop out way of not addressing what I had written. And has the definition of concern troll expanded to include everyone that doesn’t toe the FDL line?
The students were doing the pat down -backed by military chose by.
This no pat down is not a good development – Mubarak may get his chaos justification for bringing back his “police”
British Prime Minister – ‘Attacks on protesters’ – “unacceptable”
I hope you can appreciate the fact that emotions are high here right now. Many folks who are snowbound are spending their time following the story from Egypt. So, please understand that some may not be in the mood for a civil debate right now.
PS – your name kinda looks like homewrecker to me. You might want to consider backing off the heavy attitude and name calling.
people still think the USA has journalist? WOW
Me-THinks Harry Reid, OBAMA, and others in DC are asking themselves can what happen in Egypt happen in the USA, and how in the hell will control crowds full of americans carrying M-16
because the USA has little to no Gun laws
good – even bobblehead Jansing just referred to them as “pro government thugs”
I’ll go through the 9/11 stuff I have packed away. I moved and still have things in boxes. I think it was either on from the wilderness website or in Paul Thompson’s Terror Timeline.
What’s the real-time ‘Net viewership (image stream and text) right now? How many millions, folks? Add TV. Then what’s that number? Seriously historic.
Confirmed. Pro Mubarak supporters attacking journalists.
Iran and Russian leaders must be LOL
Bush, Clinton, Obama, are not leaders, they are puppets!
for all of you that love the BBC and the Independent (you know, where Fisk writes?), two links for you:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/obama_gets_tough_on_egypts_wea.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mary-dejevsky/mary-dejevsky-is-obama-egypts-great-enabler-2201251.html
I offer them without comment save that some people see things differently from you all here.
El Baradei to BBC:
That is pretty much the drill. Confirmation bias runs deep here.
Keep commenting. It is refreshing.
So veddy British. Pinky up. Nose in the air. Quite distasteful, all this violence. Ha.
Why must insult bobbleheads? ;)
and of course no one else has emotions. I should stop name calling (when did I do that btw, save for the word childish) when I am being called a concern troll and Rahm; when President Obama is routinely called corrupt, cowardly etc? what a joke. So, when passions run high, no room for civil debate? Sounds just like those idiot tea partiers to me.
For your information, I am emotionally invested in what is happening in Egypt for personal reasons but I just see things differently (obviously) than you do.
My name is an homage to my favourite cartoon character and the place I used to live.
thank you,yours in the only link that works for me,who is Johanna girl?
Anything that turns up the heat in the streets serves only to ensure that nothing will change after Mubarak goes into retirement. Those who kept Mubarak in power will be the same ones who install the next asshole and who will benefit from keeping him in power.
It’s so easy for them to divide the people.
Just look at what the MOTU have been able to do in the US over the last 30 years as they screw over the American people.
homerhk OBAMA is not BUSH, YES he is not! he is worse! he is a CON MAN!
read below!
1st Obama endorses the Bush agenda of spying on and killing americans
2nd Obama attacks Unions (the F! the UAW moment screams republican)
3rd Obama double downs on Bush Wars, (now they are Obama wars)
4th Obama attacks Teacher Unions (teacher unions now hate OBAMA)
5th Obama does not attack the Banks? he bails them out? (sorta like what the GOP does)
6th Obama passes the Bob Dole Health Care Bill (Bob Dole is a republican)
7th Obama kills the Public Option
8Th Obama kills Drug Importation
9Th Obama APPOINTS an insurance executive to manage his health care Bill
10th Obama does not APPOINT Dawn Johnsen
11th Obama hand picks the cat food commission to destroy Social Security
12th Obama supports Blanche Lincoln, a candidate who hates Unions, and has no chance of winning
13 Guantanomo still open for business
14.Patriot Act renewed
15. renditions continue
16. Bernanke reappointed
17. Americans targeted for assassination
18 Obama is all for sending more USA jobs off shore
19 Obama is for tax cuts for the RICH!
20. Obama and the TSA porno Scandal
21 Obama freezes federal wages for 2 years
22. OBAMA TARP Funds for Legal Services for Foreclosure Victims Blocked By Treasury
23. Obama lowers estate tax for the rich
24. Obama tax bill of 2010 GUTS Social Security
25. Obama wants WikiLeaks Assange charged with espionage.
26 Obama Fake Net Neutrality Caves to AT&T,Comcast
27 Obama Wall Street Buddies foreclose on USA soldiers Homes
homerhk today belongs to the people of EGYPT
how do trolls live with themselves is beyond me!
eCAHN isn’t a man.
there is NO fdl line,state your opine,and present a link
The army told people that their demands have been heard and that they should go home. This was broadcast on state TV in Egypt.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/20112210516616914.html
It bears something of a similarlarity to Obama’s comment last night about dealing with the “aftermath” of the protests, as if the protests were to be considered finished.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/feb/01/egypt-protests-live-updates#block-119
It’s like both were saying that it was time for the peaceful people to go home, that they were “heard” and had gotten as much as they were going to get.
Yep. I’m a tea partier. That’s me.
Need a bigger shovel?
oldgold are you pro MUBARAK? or pro Egyptian People
how do troll like yourself, do it?
the Egyptian people deserve better.
can you at least clap for Egyptian people
The violent repression option belonged to Murbarak and he has taken it. The fact that he has provides more than enough evidence to render promises of his stepping down irrelevant. He just can’t be trusted. If Mubarak and his cronies cannot be trusted and if they can remain in power only because they are and can be more violent than their opponents, then there cannot be a Velvet Revolution in Egypt.
Thanks. At your leisure. As I said, his wiki (and no reason to believe that is accurate, but it’s a place to start), would not seem to leave any room for Atta to have been in the Egyptian AF.
Apparently the pro Mubarak thugs aren’t letting people leave the square though.
There was going to be an election this year. Mubarak stole the last one in 2005. He’s 82. Those who benefit from having him in power had to transition to the next asshole. Stoking a popular uprising to legitimize the next asshole is genius. Turning up the heat by having people fight in the streets just keeps those who might be interested in real reform divided.
None of this strikes anyone else as kabuki?
in diplo-speak, it’s actually a significant statement
UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon just said the same
I doubt the people of Egypt are going to follow OBAMA anywhere
If I was the Egyptian Military I would ignore advice from OBAMA
the USA is currently fighting 10 year old wars against Arabs in Iraq and Afghan. as you can see Sun Tzu is not one of our Military leaders
well I’ve given my opinion and I’ve presented two links although to be fair I don’t think my opinion (emphasis on opinion) is either strengthened or weakened by links to other op-eds that either agree or disagree with me.
I am with the people.
My reworking of “Good night, John boy” since you’re not a guy.
Artfully put, considering your personal circumstances. *g*
Egyptian State TV cuts between a 4 screen split to a single-screen showing different angle than AJ English. I’m seeing it via Irish TV on the ‘Net, RTÉ.
AJ-pro mubarak supporters throwing blocks onto protestors below in the streets, from atop tall apartment buildings. throwing furniture, satellite dishes, roofing materials, anything.
I don’t see it as kabuki.
Egypt has conscription. Conscripts without college serve three years enlisted, those with college serve one year as enlisted or three years as a reserve officer.
Link
Citizen homerhk:
Sorry Citizen, but Obama is “corrupt, cowardly etc.” and as Americans we still have the right to call him that (but for how long). The food riots and anti-fascist populist demonstrations have not yet turned anti-American but unless our President uses the full force of American power to get Mubarak out right now then they WILL turn against us and if that happens the entire Middle East will go up in flames. That is what our country has created in the last 100 years and what the Egyptians are experiencing is what we citizens of the US have in store for us unless we get our crooked and corrupt President to turn on his masters in the oligarchy.
So don’t whine about “civil discourse”, when you post here you are playin in the big leagues and your Homer Hanky doesn’t count for shit…there is a time for “civil discourse” and a time to call war murder especially when it is bein’ done in your name and with your tax dollars…wake up, Citizen, because if you don’t the jackbooted thugs aren’t gunna engage you in “civil discourse” when they come to get you.
It is Mubarak who is introducing violence – rock throwing, Molotov cocktails, thousands of thugs – not those who oppose and want an end to his thirty-year rule. It is more proof that his people are right – he does not care for them or their interests and is not promoting them.
Mubarak is a Lear, holding onto power, unable to let go, but his poetry has gone distinctly awry. As was said of the Long Parliament and Chamberlain’s appeasing government, which had both long outlived their usefulness, “In the name of God – Go!”
Hey, I got your back. :)
Obama most have called Mubarak and told him of the people being stumped by horses in St Paul at the RNC and how effective it was. Surprised they did not get that call before now. I wonder if he knew of the outrage of the people when that happened and how they surrounded the police and how they were terrified (even on horseback) and looked as if they would wet their pants. Of course later that night at the end of that march the people paid with percussion bombs and tear gas, old people and children. The group begged the police to let the children and old people out and of course they would not.
So Atta could have served one year as a reserve AF officer & it wouldn’t necessarily be in his wiki, as it would be considered routine & of no particular consequence?
Yeah, I’m not seeing that either. Maybe kabuki gone awry but not an orchestrated uprising.
Indeed. I was hoping Mubarak wouldn’t play this card, although it appears he has. I suspect the colonels and the generals are eyeballing one another very nervously now, since it will probably be the army that will decide the outcome. And I’ve heard the army is divided. It seems the storm is now here.
Sorry if I was unclear, I just meant that it seems to me that there has been some kind of official line about how the people – the peaceful ones seen in the square for the past week – should end the protest. Now the official line can be that the violence doesn’t have anything to do with anyone official – they told the people to go home.
There was some former official from the Egyptian army on AJE much earlier, right when the current conflict was heating up, who said that he thought part of the point of sending in the state-supported thugs is to try to force the army to side with the regime against the people, by forcing them to take sides on the street. The idea being that there are conflicts in the army. I haven’t found a reference for this as yet, though – I just heard the interview.
It’s a complex situation, isn’t it? Very hard to know what kind of machinations are going on behind the scenes.
Correct. He could have very well been in the Air Force, attended training but been as unremarkable as the wiki of anybody from a country with mandatory service.
Agreed. Thugs throwing Molotov cocktails into throngs of ordinary Egyptians swarming into confined squares to peacefully but forcefully petition their too-long leader to go are not engaged in kabuki. They are being threatened with death for having the “wrong” opinion of Mr. Mubarak and wanting him to do something he feels he dare not do.
The US, Europe, Israel’s and the world’s job is to give Mr. Mubarak a graceful and immediate helping hand out the door, lest his ambition and fears lead to widespread bloodshed – and the very chaos and unrest he claims to want to avoid by miserably hanging on for another six months to that he can hand power to his son in a rigged election.
Yep. I don’t think it will be clear for months, if ever.
Twitter: bencnn -People in Tahrir square begging Obama to intervene. They are terrified a bloodbath is about to occur. #Jan25 #Egypt
What can Obama do except clearly tell Mubarak to leave? I mean, yeah, I wish he’d do that but if he did, Mubarak would still refuse.
Thanks.
That tear gas is being lobbed at the pro Mubarak people…
Citizen sfmikey:
Yes indeed, “the storm is now here” and like all the other bloody fascist repressions of the last 100 years it’s manufactired by American capitalists and American capital, most of it tax payers money. If you really care about what is happening to the Egyptians and what that might mean going forward in the Middle East then turn your sights on the White House and lend your voice and the power of your citizenship to gettin’ our President to do the right thing.
The people are being divided so that the next asshole will be more easily installed. The point here seems to be to let the people feel like they’ve played an important role in getting rid of the last asshole. The next asshole will have better rhetoric, but he’ll be just as much an asshole as the last guy.
When the American people divide into camps and yell at each other, they’re unwittingly participating in the kabuki that has been orchestrated by those who have power and who know how to keep it.
Unfortunately, having the Army decide the outcome of this conflict amounts to replacing a personal dictatorship with a military dictatorship. What’s worse is a divided Army. We may see factions of the Army fighting each other….
My AJE is cutting out again. Man! Traffic must be enormous.
Crowley: “We reiterate our call for all sides in Egypt to show restraint and avoid violence. Egypt’s path to democratic change must be peaceful.” Pathetic. That’s like watching a person getting knifed and killed on the street and appealing to both sides to show restraint and avoid violence.
Hi Norske. Good on you lad, tell it like it is…it always freaks the naysayers.
Unrestricted capitalism always leads to greed and greed always leads to despotism. I would love nothing more than for this to sweep the Middle East and all western influences be thrown out. We don’t know what’s “best” for these people. It’s time for them to make their own way and past time for us to figure out a sustainable and environmentally friendly economy.
Pass the ammunition indeed!
Classic goon squad tactics. The decision for the next 24 hours is in the hands of the rank-and-file of the military: regardless or orders, who will they protect? US military aid is leverage over the upper ranks of the military in this situation but not over Mubarak. But exerting that leverage to bring Mubarak down has a lot of negative consequences if the military refuses of if Mubarak is not brought down. This matter has to be settled internally by the Egyptian people. There has to be even more evidence that the majority of the people in fact do support the demand for Mubarak to go.
When you lose your empire, you no longer have the ability to influence events, and the US has lost its influence in the Middle East (squandered it would be more accurate). Unfortunately neither the supporters of US foreign policy nor the critics from right or left have asked what US foreign policy should be after the end of the Pax Americana. And the world still looks to the US to do something. What George Bush did was demonstrate that US power was empty. And that collapse of power includes the power to do bad and the power to do good. Foreign policy hubris has again brought the US to the state of being a “pitiful helpless giant”. Regardless of who is in charge.
Yes, Exactly.
My apologies to Ecahn then.
Seconded.
Nato and the great powers can contrive for themselves a creative role to play in any transition to Democracy in Egypt. That role: To get Mubarak out, as you said, and to provide the kind of incentives necessary for Egypt’s institutional powers to sit at a constitutional round table with representatives from Egypt’s civil society to work out a modern democratic constitution.
Will this happen?
Citizen Margaret:
Obama could get out in front of this whole thing and tell Murbarak that he gets no American money until he gets his mangy ass out of Egypt…Obama can put America on the side of the people of the Arab street and disarm radical Islamists of their most effective recruiting tool: anti-Americanism. At the same time he can force the corporate sponsored reptiles in the Egyptian government to turn on Mubarak…but to do that he must get control of the CIA and make a stand against the oligarchy that owns ‘im.
No Sister Margaret, America is not powerless in this thing but I’m afraid that Obama doesn’t have the stones to do the right thing here and work for us and the people of Egypt.
The kabuki here is the impression that these thousands of thugs just spontaneously appeared with Molotov cocktails, camels, horses, rocks, etc., and are just an outpouring of widespread public support for an honored president. They are more likely to have been gathered from afar and paid or encouraged to vent violence against large masses of ordinary Egyptians whom their president now considers public enemy no. 1.
Should these crowds go home and disburse with no real changes having come from Mubarak, they will have to endure reprisals – today’s events confirm and guarantee it – and will have to start over to push for reforms whenever they actually want to achieve them. If they want them now, they have as yet no choice but to stay and return to the streets. Mubarak has made clear that kind and even rude words will not make him go or give up his plans for his son to replace him as if he were a Saudi monarch.
Obama can cut U.S. funding to Egypt.
At that point the Egyptian military will remove Mubarak within hours as without that funding, they lose their influence.
My bold. That is something I used to know & had forgotten. Someone pointed it out again last night, so I relearned it. IOW, the fastest way to get rid of a brutal dictator is to give him a face saving way to leave.
O certainly hasn’t done that with his hectoring & lecturing.
One of the reports I heard on AJ a bit ago, and no reason to believe it is accurate but it illustrates the point, was a reporter who asked pro-Mubaraks why it took them so long to come out in his support, and the A was they felt their leader had been humiliated by foreigners & it had shown in his TV address last night.
I have no idea what that face saving might involve.
After 30 years and a few stolen elections, those who have power in Egypt and who know how to keep it decided it was necessary to replace the 82-year-old Mubarak. Everything we’re seeing serves only to keep the people divided and turn up the heat in order to distract everyone from the fact that nothing will change as the new asshole is installed.
What we’re seeing will not lead to real reform that will benefit the Egyptian people.
the huge problem the Mubarak and the USG have at the present time, is that they can not control the images coming out of Egypt.
Obama and Mubarak want to make everyone in Egypt that does not love Mubarak a terrorist.
Mubarak last night said he is going to hunt down those who led to his down fall basically, does anyone with an ounce of common sense thinks the people of Egypt are going to let a end of the road dictator hunt them down?
the stupidity coming out of Mubarak mouth and Obama mouth is off the charts!
It is clear to anyone who can see, Obama is supporting a transition which according to this administration, is until the elections in Sept. I have not yet read Fisk, but I would imagine that is what he is saying. (9 months til sept gives this tyrant a great deal of time for revenge and Obama has to know of the torture he is supporting) Further into a post of yours, you speak of opinion. See that is one problem. You have a right to opinion, but there is such a thing as facts. There really is. It is one thing to continue to support Obama, after knowing the facts and another to support him without the facts. I assure you, as a human, if you stick around here, you will know the facts and be as disgusted as the FDLers. Then you get a choice if you want to continue to support someone who has done so much damage and with the look of things is responsible once again for so many more deaths. The time for accepting ignorance is long since past.
Thanks for the Avaaz link. Signed.
Its getting darker/night & more moltov’s are coming down.
I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. No, I didn’t mean to imply that he was powerless and I did say that I wish he’d tell Mubarak to get the fuck out but I also believe that Mubarak would refuse. Then what? Cutting his money off now in no way addresses the acuity of the situation the Egyptian citizens are facing in the square right now. And that is where I was less than clear. All of the solutions that are in Obama’s power are longer term in nature than what the people in that square need and are asking for right now.
And Tracerfan@150, lotta respect for you but that’s just speculation on your part. Although it might make sense from a certain point of view, it is by no means clear that would happen.
I have gone further than that. He will not listen to us. We need total regime change in DC. 2012… they all have to go
could not have said it better
electing Con Men and a Stupid Man like Obama, Clinton, and Bush will end an empire in a hurry!
Only the army has the power to stop the police/thugs from rioting against the Egyptian people. Where is the army’s loyalty, the despot or the people? How corrupt and bought-and-paid-for is it? Again, I hear the army is split; keep your eye on the colonels.
So maybe this is why the State Department ordered the evacuation of all non-emergency US government personnel and their families from Egypt. That happened yesterday. Interesting timing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/feb/01/egypt-protests-live-updates#block-52
Yep.
Edit: Well, the Egyptian people can successfully fight the thugs. But it would be better if Egypt avoids becoming the El Salvador we knew in the 1980s.
the calvary is also coming!
east cairo and west cairo are on the march to the square and they are angry and probably coming armed.
Someone needs to get on top of the building and arrest [edited by moderator] the people throwing moltov cocktails down on peoples heads.
Given their disreguard for the life of peacful protestors [edited by moderator] where I there.
[Mod note: In the comments at FDL, please do not suggest or wish violence on anyone. Thank you.]
Citizen Tracerfan:
No, you are wrong…if Obama publicly threatens to remove American money from the government and at the same time says to the Egyptian army that they don’t get paid unless they remove Mubarak, then we get a twofer, America looks like a friend of the people and Mubarak will be gone in a heartbeat.
Madma:
Do take a few minutes and read the Fisk article. It was great.
Thanks for nailing the “opinions are not facts” concept again.
Sorry Citizen, but Obama is “corrupt, cowardly etc.” and as Americans we still have the right to call him that (but for how long). The food riots and anti-fascist populist demonstrations have not yet turned anti-American but unless our President uses the full force of American power to get Mubarak out right now then they WILL turn against us and if that happens the entire Middle East will go up in flames. That is what our country has created in the last 100 years and what the Egyptians are experiencing is what we citizens of the US have in store for us unless we get our crooked and corrupt President to turn on his masters in the oligarchy.
Coming originally from an eastern land and married to someone from a muslim land that went through its own revolution I will say that the idea behind this post just drives me mad. People in the ME don’t want US to get involved in that level of detail in their countries at all! As Obama has sensibly said, it is not for him or the US to choose Egypt’s leaders – that is for the Egyptians.
Good Gandhi quote when asked about the problems India would face after the Brits left “we may have problems but they will be our problems”.
And the idea, I’m sorry, of comparing the system in the US which has free and fair elections, where even though there is income equality I suspect not even 0.00001% of people know poverty like they have in Egypt, India, Iran (or countless other places), where the per capita income is so vastly inflated compared to the rest of the world, is just absurd. That such a comparison can be made apparently seriously is a clear demonstration of how spoiled some Americans have got.
A further point to ruminate over: If the US had not had such close ties to Egypt and the military do you think it could have any influence over what the military is doing right now? Of course not. You just have to compare the situation with the uprising in Iran after the recent elections where the US – self-isolated from the Iranian regime – found itself with absolutely no leverage other than sanctions; no ability to threaten cut off of aid (because no aid), no ability to talk direct to the military (as they have been able to do in Egypt). So, I guess my point is that these things just aren’t black or white.
To those who have commented – with apparent sincerity – that Obama has called Mubarak to give him tips in how to restrain people or that this latest violence is somehow coordinated with the US – what a shameful thing to say since there is no evidence for it other than a seemingly irrational hatred of Obama and the desire to think that his motives must inevitably be evil.
When the Army arrived in Tahrir Square the people welcomed them with open arms, I wonder how they feel about them now as the peaceful protesters are being beaten and the army is standing around with their thumbs up their asses.
I would guess he is clearly pro-Obama.
So whatever Obama farts out his ass on any given day.
I hope people realize that Solmon did not literally split hte baby in two like Obama thinks he can on every issue. 1/2 a baby is no good.
Who are east cairo & west cairo?
the wealthy are going to drive him out. They can not handle the drop in the stock market. The longer this goes on the more damage to the other regimes. The people are coming together and I have to say, I doubt it is any different there then here, where the powers that be, pit the people against each other to maintain control. people on the street are one and this is not good for the powerful. They will not stop this for human reasons, but selfish reasons and with the incompetence we are seeing within our government, they will not see this for a while.
Citizen Margaret:
The point is that Mubarak won’t go unless Obama tells his people that they won’t get paid until he is gone. We have enough Sneaky Petes and CIA sponsored goons in and around the government to get Mubarak out and the Army on the side of the people in the street. The problem is that Obama doesn’t have the courage to take control of his own government and stand up to the CIA and the corporate oligarchy…the last President to do that was JFK and he was killed by the CIA a year after he faced ‘em down.
I don’t think you get the difference between opinion and facts. You seem to but then say that everyone who can see knows that Obama is supporting a transition of 9 months til September. Is that right? where do you get this from? From Obama’s calling for a transition beginning NOW?
CNN – Anderson standing up to an attempt to muddle who is starting & engaging violence.
CNN mid-day looks like it is going to be 99% pro-democracy demonstrators.
The thugs clearly rolled into throw a beating on the repoters to clear them out.
Now they are out and the next step is to kill some of the PEOPLE.
The CNN other side, the women is asking:
Do these people have a pro-Mubarak bent… or are they just randomly rampaging through the street for now reason….
What a stupid fucking question. Yea, people are just randomly running around punching people, and whipping people from camels.
Fair enough but it’s my opinion that such would make him dig in. The speculation is that the Army would then turn on him. Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn’t. Either way I think we can agree it’s a moot point because Obama doing the right thing is like Pat Robertson taking up Buddhism.
apparently east cairo and west cairo are full of pro democracy supporters
and Richard Engel saying they are marching toward the square to fight back the pro mubarak forces
From what I’ve read the reason State had non-essential personnel leave the embassy was related to bank machines running out of cash and stores running out of food. With the unrest, simply acts of daily living are becoming more difficult and they wanted to get their personnel out ahead of a potentially deepening crisis of food shortages, etc.
your a doll
The fiefdoms of the Empire are beginning to fall, one by one, and the puppets of those fiefs have been instructed to try and save face and make it look like they were planning on stepping down of their own volition anyway…
This is not over, by a long shot. The Empire has been sorely hit by the transmissions that were sent by true patriots to an outside whistleblower site. The Empire has tried to intimidate people and scare them from further leaks.
There is a reason that what is happening in Egypt and Tunisia has brought hope to the American being psychologically tortured right now. He knows that something is changing. Whoever got those cables out did so at great risk to themselves. But they helped sparked the fall of two fiefdoms of the Empire, and they are part of a New Hope…
CNN cooper:
“I can only imagine they would come because they want to CREATE VIOLENCE”.
“against people who have protested peacfully for 9 days”
“I have not seen any moltov cockatails coming back from the anti-Mubarak”
“I think the people in the square are trapped”
–
Why must the violent be allowed to destroy people? I pray to God there is a hell, and before that someone on earth to admin justice.
Thanks.
Moving upstairs to dday’s thread on same subject.
Citizen homerhk:
Sigh, you just don’t get what democracy and freedom of speech mean but you are not alone in this country because a significant number of Americans don’t. Democracy means that we have not only the freedom to condemn our leaders but the RESPONSIBILITY to do just that. The only way we reverse the terrible things that we have done to Egypt and to the rest of the third world is to remove the stooges like Mubarak that we have subsidized, trained and protected and get ourselves the hell out of the way. The people are now committed and we have the responsibility to clean up our droppings and let the people of Egypt and the rest of Africa fight it out for themselves.
richard engel says the calvary is on the march, apparently there are a large number of pro democracy egyptians heading toward the square to fight Mubarak thugs
He can:
1. ASK Mubarack to leave
2. He can say aid to military is cut off immediatly if he does not comply
I would settle for #1 on TV, and a hint of #2 (and #2 being delivered strongly to Mubarak and all Egyptian militart).
It is not going to look good siding with Mubarak when in his speech last night he said his “PRIORITY” for his last few months of being a dictator was:
- brining the bad people of the protest to justice (he claimed “looter”, etc – but those are his people – he clearly meant more torture and disapearance).
That speech by Mubarak last night could not have been worse – for him, for Egypt, and for Obama who’s words said Mubarak has met his request… not going up for re-eleaction).
FYIW – even CNN figured out the Mubarak speech sucked and what not enough – about 3.5 minutes after the speech ended.
Crap! I surrender. I’m not going to go through this with everybody who shows up on this thread and jumps in before reading the rest of the comments.
For Obama on Mubarak:
#3. We pop you, or leave you on trial in Egypy, or press a button and take your families money, or your get last choice of dictator retirement homes.
I read and respond in real time like most people. I have been on this thread for 2 hours and have not gotten to the bottom yet. Seems like there must be a new one as there are fewer posts.
I understand you not wanting to engage under those circumstances, but I hope you don’t always stick to that.
To Mod: understood
Not sure how the policy will work when discussing war, and stopping people from killing innocent protestors. That being said I understand the policy and will refrain.
Sorry that you may have to edit one more of my posts that I already submitted.
No, not at all. I’m just saying that I’ve addressed that. I’m on your side. It just seems rather pointless to address it over and over again with everyone who brings it up. :)
Especially considering the person who was shot for picking up a rock – and now people have fire death landing on their heads, and nothing.
Oh yea – its because for this brief moment one faction has a monopoly on violence.
Thanks, I read your post about it. Good post.
I do think there is something in the asking though, even if Mubarak does not take that option.
Indeed, homerhk, indeed. This very much echoes the situation we had when Bush I was calling on the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, then gave them no assistance when he swooped in with his helicopters. Only now, it is huge numbers of the Egyptian people, demonstrably peaceful, who are being violently attacked while the world is watching.
I have a great hope that the conditions are so apparent, the injustices so blatant, that ALL dictators need tremble in their shoes, and not only in the Middle East. Worsening economic conditions, apart from all of this, will eventually bring down the corporatocracy worldwide. We are witnessing the last gasps of this domination, fueled as well by worsening climate conditions such as we here in the US are currently experiencing.
Egyptians show us that we do not need to fear chaos. They come together peacefully and would create a sustainable society were the forces of repression to leave them alone. That would happen in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in all the countries that the empire constantly harrasses in order to maintain power.
Egyptians, you are not alone. May God bless you and keep you in His care.
Despots, let our people go.
Egyptians, you are firmly in our hearts, and you will always be there.
We shall overcome.
As I stated in my original comment, I wish Obama would demand he leave but that still doesn’t address the here and now of the people in Tahrir Square. He is powerless in the near term. Even if he threatened to cut off the pay of the military in Egypt, it is the wildest speculation to assume that would prompt the Army to intervene on behalf of the anti Mubarak folks. Like I said, I wish he would but it’s probably moot anyway.
I should also note that I would not have asked immediatly. I do see some value in not getting ahead of what the Egyptian people want.
But the gambit of going for the “strong” request that he not run again. Then having Mubarak make a play to stay on for months with his priority to punish the people on the “wrong” side of the protest. Not a good idea. I just don’t see how they could not have predicted what we are seeing now.
It makes me sick to think of someone throwing oil bombs down on peaceful people’s heads. These are Mubarak’s people killing and maiming.
I think if Mubarak was out it would remove a rally point for the paid thugs, and it would meet the key demand of the potestors. I could be quite wrong on that though.
It will be very interesting to see what Obama says now that CNN and NBC have openly stated (multiple times) that the “pro” Mubarak groups are actually police/government provocateurs, and were sent in specifically for the purpose of fomenting violence?
I expect Obama to continue viewing this with the eyes of a profiteer.
Gosh, not listening much anymore but it seems the woman on CNN (Suzann) is now pushing the shill for Mubarak approach.
Damn, and I thought coooper was the main CIA point for CNN – but he got punched in the head and he is on the other side of what this woman is framing.
Don’t think my post began clearly – I was responding with the answer of Norse Flamethrower in mind when I said ‘yes, indeed’ since I agree that we DO have responsibility in this situation, and Obama should be much more outspoken in order to help the Egyptian people, which he has not been. Indeed, the initial statement by John Kerry that Mubarek must step down, is the appropriate response accompanied by a withdrawal of aid – there is no question of that. And we all should be calling for it, in order to save lives and move forward into the promise the Egyptian people have laid before us.
Agreed. Where we apparently disagree is the theory that Mubarak would leave if Obama tells him to.
I have been following Fisk since he was not in bed with our mass murder there and you can trust him.
I am noticing a change in AJ today. The reporter is not allowing pro protesters to talk and is turning them off and then having pro mubarak and keeps saying people are dying shouldn’t they work with Mubarak. Repeating a women from EU saying the descision has been made and opposition will be working with Mubarak. So I wonder what happened? who got what money? I don’t think that will continue because the protesters will win and they will have to change their tune. She is already changing her tune.
It was George W. Bush. He used the US military in such a way as to expose its weakness as an imperial army. If you are going to run an empire, you have to be good at it. And part of that is to only use the military when you can definitively win.
If you want to criticize having an empire at all, then you have a line of presidents going back to Washington. The history of the US from its settlement has been that of a European-style empire.
The question to deal with now is how to create global security without some country acting imperially. Because what we discovered in World War I is that in an age of modern weapons and total war, empire no longer works.
Italian pictures of pro-Mubarak thugs on camels: http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2011/02/02/foto/il_cairo_scontri_nelle_strade-11966111/1/?ref=HRER3-1
sorry I screwed up. It is 7 months. If you listen closely, you will see what they are saying is that Mubarak should not run in sept and he should be working on a transition with the people. How do you expect a dictator to know how to work with the people who want a democracy. Why would anyone who has been beaten by his thugs trust him. For anyone to think that if they allow him to stay and the people will not be brutalized between now and then, you have not been paying attention to brutality that our administration has been inflicting on innocent people around the world.
you can bet the democrats/republicans will have camels at their conventions. Just horses will not be enough for them.
that post by empty wheel, with the former CIA. Machiavellian told the prince in order to rule the people, you needed them to fear you (Bush)(Mubarak) or respect you, but you lose if they despise you. In our household obama is at the despise.
Did you read Kerry’s Op ed? It was clear that he should not run nor his son should not run in sept and yet Egyptians are to work with him until then to transition and restore jobs. Nothing about dignity, freedom and respect for the people.
“Now cue the US media to draw a false equivalency between the government thugs and the peaceful protesters…”
Exactly!
This guy just never gives up!!! Isn’t there some brush in Texas you can go clear, Tony, instead of trying to push your way back into the wrong spotlight?
Fair enough, but that doesn’t necessarily identify what policies progressives need to be advocating. The progressive movement in the US has been paralyzed by operating out of reaction to events instead of to vision of the future, rooted in the real challenges. If you truly believe the problem is systemic, Obama is a captive of that same system as much as anyone else is. The US is different from Egypt. For the most part in Egypt, Mubarak has been the system (or it has revolved around him). That is not the case in the US and even if Obama was convincing about dealing with the systemic problem, he cannot do it by executive order. And given the bubble the corporate media has put him in, he also cannot do it through jawboning.
Despise him all you want. (1) It doesn’t matter. (2) It is a diversion from dealing with the systemic problem. A significant portion of the Egyptian electorate has despised Mubarak and feared his thugs. That fear broke down on Friday. Mubarak is struggling to reimpose that fear. What is it that is the fear that is blocking the progressive movement from effective political action to deal with the systemic problem? It’s a lot of things, but one of them is fear to engage folks who dramatically disagree with progressive positions and do it in such a way as to penetrate the conservative propaganda. For a lot of progressives, that fear manifests itself as a fear to even set foot in a Southern state.
A perpetual reactive chorus to every minor thing said by President Obama will not bring about progressive change. That should be obvious by now.
It is very easy to pick apart diplomatese in statement issued by people whose words have real consequences (mostly potentially negative) in this situation. In fact, what we have seen is that even the cautious approach to Mubarak has offended him. And what has he to fear from the US? Losing US aid will just allow him to bind the military closer to supporting him. Is the US likely to attack a country of 80 million? How self-defeating would that be? The US has very limited power in this situation. Having limited power is not something that US citizens are comfortable with. It causes folks to think emotionally instead of strategically.
Democrats will have asses at their convention. They won’t need horses.
Republicans will meet behind barbed wire and armed Tea Party supporters.