I wonder how Limburger will blame Gifford for this on Monday.

“She brought it upon herself”?

“One lone nut”?

Why would the officials say there is a second suspect without releasing the cctv? One would think they’d want the public’s help.

The cossack works for the czar. Palin: Obama ‘Hell-Bent’ on Weakening America

Sarah Palin says President Obama’s push to raise the nation’s debt ceiling demonstrates that he is “hell-bent on weakening America.”

Palin, interviewed Friday by radio talk show host Laura Ingraham, said the president of the United States was “purposefully weakening America.”

Does anybody outside of the Village and the right wing think that this kind of rhetoric is without consequences?

The Sheriff’s office believes the second suspect arrived at the location of the shooting with Loughner, and Dupnik indicated that police have pictures of him.

Kind of hard to “arrive at the location with Loughner” and not know he had a Glock with a high capacity magazine.

Nah, it’ll all be about the fact that he listed a Karl Marx book on his facebook page.

He will totally ignore the violent rhetoric and threats being leveled at Rep. Giffords that the Sheriff believes had a serious impact on a disturbed young man.

Tucson Tea Party Leader: We Won’t Change Our Rhetoric After Giffords Shooting

A leader of a Tucson-area tea party group condemned the mass shooting in Arizona that included Rep. Gabriel Giffords (D-AZ), but told TPM that this doesn’t mean her group is going to tone down their rhetoric: “I think anytime you start suppressing freedom of speech, I think it’s wrong. I live here and I didn’t hear anything that concerned me in terms of inciting violence.”

Yeah, you know how the “professional left” hates Bluedogs.

Yeah, I don’t get the Communist Manifesto juxtaposed with Mein Kampf. It sounds like a book list designed to shock rather than one he actually read. I mean, I’m sure there are a lot of people who have read both but to list both as favorites? Just weird.

and Animal Farm,and To Kill a Mockingbird,raise your hand if ya think this guy read these books

to the head of the class

When can we get photos of this guy if he were Black the press would have had photos of this guy already.

Perhaps the last of her days without consequences has finally arrived.

If police have pictures of another guy arriving with Loughner, then video and photographic journalists also have pictures. Okay, let’s see them.

some one mentioned The Fisherking….apropos,no?

This whole second suspect in his fifties is odd itself. Either expect the story to unravel and start making sense very quickly or to dive headfirst into the twilight zone.

shaded more darkly around the eyes

The overarching theme of the book list (assuming he actually read them) is anti-govt. The post-WWII environment encouraged anti-govt lit from the left, as the right so dominated the govt (McCarthy et al). But it’s easy to see how anti-govt lit can be used by either side.

Cross-posted from my commentary on Jeff Kaye’s post “Jared Loughner’s possible mental illness”, as the suspicion of an accomplice makes it even more relevant (opening quote is from Jeff’s post):

I would caution against implying any politics to someone who appears so disturbed, as his interpretation of political symbols and phrases are interpreted in a highly idiosyncratic and irrational way.

I wonder whether it would really be so extraordinary for florid mental illness and organized right-wing political activism to be combined.

People tend to assume that cold, calculating instrumental rationality is incompatible with mental illness, and it just isn’t. I once saw a quotation from a criminal defense lawyer saying that it’s impossible to get a hit man acquitted through the insanity defense, even though it’s common for hit men to be floridly psychotic. No jury will ever believe that a hired killer belongs in a mental hospital rather than a prison, although that would often be the right decision to make.

And if a hit man can be psychotic, why not a political assassin?

Friday night (yesterday) I was at a book signing for the book Wolfer in Idaho. The author, Carter Niemeyer, said he had never seen the hatred on the Blogs as bad as it was now. These are redneck fear-laden gun nut Blogs in the Rocky Mountain States he was talking about. But now it seems kind of an eerie premonition that something was going to pop.

“The Wizard of oz” is an interesting choice on his list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_interpretations_of_The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz

Add some Alice in Wonderland logic and it sounds like an extremely literate kind of insanity.

in a rational world,maybe…………however

“…that he listed a Karl Marx book on his facebook page.”

That’s it. I read where CNN earlier narrowed Loughner’s reading list to “Mein Kampf”…which does fit with the tea party habit of calling Obama a Commmunist and a Nazi in the same paragraph.

eCanh, that’s a good question about why they won’t release the video, if they have it, and it sounds like they do. If the 50 year old man turns out to be some kind of tea party mentor for Loughner, it’ll be a large and unwelcome kitty getting out of the bag.

fits nicely with smilin Ronnie Raygun….govmint is the problem

I wonder if it is that the MySpace page was a construct by a person not the shooter?

The choice of books is odd…I guess the idea is to define himself or his “character” in this drama before he did the act, and it may well differ from who he really is.

Good points. How do they know he’s in his 50s? My point in 2 and yours. Otherwise, becuz he suffers from early onset baldness? Or graying? Or becuz the PTB really know who he iz?

One is in the post above.

If the 50 year old man turns out to be some kind of tea party mentor for Loughner …

Not all that impossible.

Agreed I don’t think he read either book. This seems like he wants people to think he is political and balanced between Right and Left but our side tones down the violence even on blog comments.

thats my opine

And if a hit man can be psychotic, why not a political assassin?

If you were to choose a political assassin, would you choose someone you knew to suffer from extreme mental illness?

9 yr old victim appears to be named Christina Taylor Green

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/08/20110108arizona-congresswoman-gabrielle-giffords-shooting-victims-brk08-ON.html

I agree. The sylogisms in his videos indicate a young person who was at the Philosophy 101 level, and the book list reflects that.

Or someone else wrote the book list for him.

The Mafia did so all the time back in the day.

My first impression late this morning when I went through this kid’s youtubes was that as much as his images seemed hallucinatory, they seemed to hide a lot more. Why was he so concerned about conscience dreams, brainwashing and mind control?

As with others, my first impression was schizophrenia. I just wanted to back away from something repellent, though. I seldom get that feeling reading the words of schizophrenics.

With a mentor.

Link?

speculation: If he did arrive with a man 2x his age that is a red flag right there. Young kids don’t hang out with people that old. Does handler come to mind? This is looking less like the work of a bizarre crazy kid… and more like a kid who was a programmed to kill and take the blame for it (of course) while the people behind it are not looked at. This is classic deception for getting away with “something”… make sure someone else gets the rap.

Assassins can be mind controlled.. act with post hypnotic suggestions and not even know what they are doing or have done.

Once the media starts with their “narrative” it’s all over.

Sirhan Sirhan
James Earl Ray
Lee Oswald

and all those “suicides”

yup,it is completely iconsistent

He also mangles the syllogisms – really doesn’t understand the construct, yet employs it.

I had read both of these at a younger age. I don’t think I’m nuts. Yet.

I’m hip but again to list them both as “favorites” is like listing both the Bible and the Satanic Bible as favorites. The overarching theme there is superstition but it makes just as much “sense” as listing two other such mutually exclusive works.

more and more looking like another PATSY

eCahn, did this guy drop Loughner off and leave, or did he get out and walk around with him?

Also, I haven’t heard if Loughner came out of the store and started shooting, or was outside with the other people and just waded in and went after Giffords and the others?

Limbaugh will make much of the fact that Loughner listed The Communist Manifesto among his many favorite books on his MySpace page as proof that he was a leftist or, more absurdly, a liberal. He probably won’t mention that Mein Kampf was also listed (or he might since he has for years tried to convince his listeners that fascists are really socialists and socialists are really liberals). Loughner apparently had no coherent political philosophy because he also listed Animal Farm.

Already at least one wingnut is leaving multiple posts on Yahoo! comment threads falsely asserting that Loughner is a registered Democrat, but there has been no disclosure about Loughner’s political affiliation or whether he was even registered to vote.

Conservatives’ favorite pastime is lying and making angry comments about liberals (libtards) and Democrats (Demofags).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugsy_Siegel

This is exactly why it hits so close to home, for me. I could easily see someone I know taking their neighbor to this kind of event.

So sad. And the lesson learned? Stay far away from the democratic process.

Dunno, but I rewound the DVR and listened carefully several times. He did say he they believed the 2nd suspect was in his 50s. The question was hard to hear, but that is clearly what he says.

It’s odd — in my mind when Dupnik was talking about a 2nd suspect, I was thinking someone else who was young. The detail being in his 50s implies this is something quite different than the “Columbine” model I think many people (like myself) automatically presumed.

If you were to choose a political assassin, would you choose someone you knew to suffer from extreme mental illness?

Would you even know about the person’s mental illness when making the choice? Presumably the organized-crime bosses who hire psychotic hit men don’t know about their psychoses either.

The point: the kind of nuttiness that can readily be detected by police raiding a killer’s home would not necessarily be evident to the criminals – or fascists – employing him as a killer.

not those 2,….TKAM,and Mein Kampf,or Rand and then Alice through the Looking glass

Precisely. A child who doesn’t understand anything but the shock value those works would have for others. Parents, gullible friends and etc.

YES!

Yeah it’s kinda creepy, huh.

IMO we don’t need to connect this guy to any specific right wing group, or thought. The guy is a lunatic. And guess what? There are about a million or so other lunatics out there. And when lunatics hear the kind of language heard about this Congresswoman, or the left in general, and the hear it from the TV (which some connote with “authoritative” or “official” somehow) then it’s not a matter of IF one of them does something like this, it’s only a matter of when.

I don’t care if he comes out being a registerd socialist, the fact is he’s a NUTCASE, he heard a lot of violent language, language targeted at this Congresswoman, and he shot her.

Someone is owed some blame for that in addition to him, IMO.

It’s time that some adults start to treat the rhetoric of the Glenn Beck’s and Rush Limbaughs more seriously, and start making any and all outlets that spew that shit responsible. This case is as good as any to get started with that. I think the Sherrif was right on, and I think that message needs to be taken and run with nationwide.

And if the right wing is serious about being serious, they’ll finally hold those extreme assholes resonsible. Or they’ll show they’re not serious, and really are ready for civil war.

thats what im feeling.

To be determined.

I had the same thought. He probably never read most of the books he listed as favorites. Almost all of them are either classics or notorious books.

x2

Westboro.

Ugh.

Already at least one wingnut is leaving multiple posts on Yahoo

last thread someone commented on false tweets the GOP propaganda machine is spinning this with lies already why? They claim every shooter was not one of them even when we prove it and the MSM never follows up on the story.

But not unheard of. Witness the DC Snipers… Seems to be increasingly common.

Catapult the bullshit.

You do it, no you do it…let’s get Mikey to do it.

I think the Feds should investigate.

Right? What about Harry Potter? A person who was born in or around 1990 who claims to like to read but hasn’t read those? Please. I remember the first actual books I read and would list them as favorites almost automatically.

Yep. Definitely unanswered Qs here.

I gotta leaven the thread with a stupid old joke. Contest for best invention ever. Moran submits thermos as his candidate. In defense part of contest, moran is asked what’s so great about the thermos. He sez: Becuz it keeps hot things hot & cold things cold. Asked by the judges why he is so impressed by that, the moran replies: “How does it know?”

So I ask again, how do they know the other guy is in his 50s?

People who are used as assassins and programmed can be of any mental capacity. Their minds are manipulated and when needed they trigger whatever act – murder – that they are programmed to do. CIA DOES THIS. THIS IS A FACT.

There was a women who had her mind destroyed in CIA experiments.. totally “erased” and re programmed.

Watching the Sheriff’s press conference this evening, my impression regarding the second person was that they probably had images of their primary suspect being dropped off in a vehicle they could identify driven by a person they couldn’t. But that was simply my impression.

Good point, Jane. The age discrepancy IS provocative.

Also, if Loughner was into all of the “government is evil” nonsense, then surely there will be some kind of track record of his hanging with the people who take that as gospel.

Federal Judge, they are on it. Who knows if that makes any difference, sadly.

If the violent rhetoric and warrior metaphors are bad enough to make someone commit mass murder, you’d expect more killings like this to have already happened, and you wouldn’t expect fewer violent crimes (as reported by the FBI). You don’t smell something rotten like a herring?

In a charged environment like that the Sheriff described regarding bigotry and prejudice, especially after a community trauma like today’s, he may very well want the public to stay at home and well out of it.

witnesses, also.

I’ve about had it with the Fox News types. Had people not been killed, they would be saying the gunman was just exercising his “rights” according to the 2nd amendment. But, when blood is spilled, they wail and wail about how horrible it all is. All this hand-wringing on their part is total bs. All this channel does, 24/7, is tear down the president in basically every single story. Everything is slanted. The placement of stories is clearly structured to destroy every single democrat in sight. Let a republican do something wrong, and it is given a cursory mention, and QUICKLY buried. Even down to the intonation in the voice of the presenters clearly has an agenda to destroy the president, everything he has done (which is alot), and destroy everyone associated with him. Have a democrat and a republican on their air. The republican is given the kid glove treatment, with very softball questions. One semi-tough question is thrown in to cover Fox’s you know what. The democrat gets absolutely hammered from the first sentence, and it goes downhill from there.

I guarentee you that deep down, Fox executives are saddened, not by this horrible event, but that the flashy graphics they already had in the can proclaiming “Showdown on the JOB KILLING Obamacare,” will have to be shelved, at least for a week. I wonder if the GOP consulted with Fox on the “rebranding” of the push to repeal the healthcare bill. I bet they did.

Just how many GOPers besides Sarah Palin targeted Giffords? I want names so we can boycott their donors and advertisers.

Family? License plates? Dunno.

How can this “crazy” person’s fav books include an Ayn Rand book that is anticommunist, and books trumpeting communism?
Does not add up. Then throw in the Wizard of Oz? Somebody is intentionally making him look insane. And insane people are not found guilty by reason of insanity, not? Like a sane person kills people, but that’s how the justice system works. Seems someone is trying real hard to make him insane. And if insane, why did it take until last month to post videos online? Doesn’t add up at all. Sure hope the FBI has more on this than they are letting on. That little girl can’t be brought back, but her family deservers answers and justice.

Calling Spocko.

He looks like it!

and the gun WAS legal……….wtf

I feel for the family and the neighbor. The emotional pain must be intense.

Most of the media accounts I’ve seen say he was a loner. That’s certainly the vibe he gives off.

They are Cool! link please I had not heard anything about that.

One of my old bosses in the consulting business used to say, Buzz, let’s not step on our dick here. Well, progressives better not step on their respective private parts here.

Here is an opportunity to connect the violent vitriol with its consequences. The right-wing rhetoric caused this. The average American knows this. This is a teaching and learning moment. Let’s push it as far as we can — whether Barry likes it or not.

I agree with Margaret this might be like a Malvo and Muhammad DC sniper shooting where the older guy influences the younger guy to do the dirty work.

Seconded nice rant:)

Or because they have an image of the vehicle, the license plate, and have cross-referenced the registration with a drivers permit, which lists date of birth.

He would know!

Or the CIA or FBI handlers… and there are many of them… have their “agents” do whatever “work” needs to be done… and they (the agents) don’t get to know or question the handler… they just DO.. as they are trained. This is how intel operates.
‘Human Intelligence

A primary purpose of intelligence organizations is to penetrate a target with a human agent, or a network of human agents. Such agents can either infiltrate the target, or be recruited “in place.” Case Officers are professionally trained employees of intelligence organizations that manage human agents and human agent networks. Intelligence that derives from such human sources is known as HUMINT.

Sometimes, agent handling is done indirectly, through “principal agents” that serve as proxies for case officers. It is not uncommon, for example, for a case officer to manage a number of principal agents, who in turn handle agent networks, which are preferably organized in a cellular fashion. In such a case, the principal agent can serve as a “cut-out” for the case officer, buffering him or her from direct contact with the agent network.

Utilizing a principal agent as a cut-out, and ensuring that the human agent network is organized in a cellular fashion, can provide some protection for other agents in the network, as well as for the principal agent, and for the case officer in the event that an agent in the network is compromised. Assuming that standard principles of intelligence tradecraft have been strictly observed by the principal agent and the agents in the network, compromised agents will not be able to identify the case officer, nor the other members of the network. Ideally, agents may work side by side in the same office, and conduct their clandestine collection activities with such discipline, that they will not realize that they are both engaged in espionage, much less members of the same network.

Since an agent can sometimes identify his or her principal agent, however, or reveal information under interrogation that can lead to the identification of a principal agent, the protection provided by cellular network organization can be time-sensitive.

If principles of intelligence tradecraft have not been strictly observed, it is also possible that compromised agents can reveal information that exposes other members of the network. In the real world of espionage, human lapses are very much the norm, and violations of the principles of tradecraft are common. It is for this reason that agents are ideally trained to resist interrogation for a defined period of time.

If an agent is able to resist interrogation for a defined period of time, the odds that other members of the network can be alerted to the compromise improve.

Look up “handler” inneresting…

I went to his site when I first heard of it and listened to that stuff. He just seemed so something I have a hard time defining, but sure know when I see it. I was reading his book list and realized I had read about 90% of them. And I sat my tinfoil hat down before I dwelled too much on how easy is would be to manipulate all that.

It is creepy.

If they have license plates wouldn’t there be a BOLO & wouldn’t we all know about it?

Wow, been so long since I heard that one I’d forgotten about it. Nice segway too.

Well let’s face it, the intrepid media is fucking stupid to begin with. The Guardian for example was reporting the guy was an Afghan war vet all because he had put up on his MySpace that he was a “recruit down at MEPS”. MEPS is a recruiting place/induction center:
Military
Enlistee
Processing
Station
So without confirmation, without even finding out what the acronym means, some genius ran with the story that MEPS must mean Afghan war vet. The fact is that you’re not a “recruit” until you get past MEPS. You go to MEPS to join and he apparently didn’t get past that point. Take what the media says about this with a large amount of salt. I’ve a feeling a lot of the shit being blown out today by the media will be retracted tomorrow.

A witness told a reporter that he saw a man who appeared to be with the shooter run away. He didn’t describe him at that point, but probably did to police.

Very much so, Jane. Which makes that other guy all the more interesting.

That’s right, Teddy; all they had to do was run the plates and get the owners info. Was it he?

Surely, if they’ve got a name, then they’ve got the DMV shot, just for starters. The question is, would they go public with a name and a photo, or sit on it while they looked for him?

This thing is…fraught.

It’s a favorite book list of an unhinged man.

The book list is balanced left and right but nothing about modern politics yet he kills a Dem congresswoman? Lets see the police or MSM show the shooter had any interest or connection to the victims without exposing a right winger media connection.

If the 50-year old is already recognized by the authorities and they know of his background, then perhaps they have a reason to delay that information? Like perhaps, oh I don’t know, he’s an FBI informant or something of that ilk…but it’s just my wild speculation…

Okay, but, you know the Safari web browser uses the incendiary term “Reload” (instead of ‘refresh’).

Do they have traffic cams in that AZ neighborhood and or the mall?

What’s creepy is why both (all suspects) aren’t on their way to Guantanamo as Terrorists, that’s creepy!

Or the syllabus of a community college student.

The Tucson Tea Party Leader stated: “I think anytime you start suppressing freedom of speech, I think it’s wrong.”
Is it not wrong to start suppressing freedom of speech of those who disagree with you, perhaps progressives, Democrats, by the implied threat of violence embedded in your free speech?”
They are trying to frighten us so that we will not speak up publicly, because we know that there is danger to our families and ourselves. This is how Hitler began to control the masses in Germany.

We got the pc version. Still cute.

Well if they are looking for an accomplice, then something has to be connected, that’s for sure. I feel terrible for that little girl’s family. Tragic. You shouldn’t bury your children.

I thought that sometimes law enforcement sat on the ID of someone at first so as not to spook the person into flight. Isn’t that at least possible in this case? I thought it was only after they were unable to locate the person themselves that they then put out info for the public to help.

With a gun sight?

they forgot CATCHER IN THE RYE

The Sheriff made the point to list all the federal, and local and state, agencies involved in helping with this investigation. The impression I got from him was that he doesn’t want the public involved in “helping” identify, pursue, and apprehend this other person. He seems pretty fed up with the public’s behavior, quite frankly, and I think is worried there could very easily be collateral incidents.

If this guy is armed and dangerous, something the Sheriff pointedly DID NOT SAY, he doesn’t want civilians involved in apprehending him. Putting out a description, or even a picture and a name and a vehicle, lends itself to a “there he is!” moment that could end tragically for an innocent, or badly for law enforcement even if he is the guy.

One thing: with Dupnik’s excellent tell-it-like-it-is presser, if it develops that there is a tie-in to some tea party people, I would expect him to air it out, IF he’s got the call.

Or the syllabus of a community college student.

What public college has Mein Kampf in the library? What public library has that book on the shelves? This reading list sounds elitist GOP elitist. Who except Nazi Racist thinks that Hitler is the pinnacle of GOP thought?

Just imagine the horror of taking a child with you to the Safeway this morning, seeing the Congresswoman’s table over to the side, and saying, “Oh, honey, let’s go say hi to Gabby Giffords, the lady who works for us in Washington.”

you get the prize

Never!! Is one of my biggest fears…

Yes we need the faces of all the kids shot by GOP gunmen and the faces of their killers. We can win this fight with children’s faces.

No kidding.
Can you imagine what it’s like for Dupnik to have freaking Joe Arpaio on his six?

News reported the child had just been elected to some student body, and the neighbor did exactly that, come with me, you will find it interesting.

i read it out of curiosity

I sure as shit wouldn’t release it until I’d pursued all other options. The last thing you want is a mob getting ahold of someone right now.

Funny how all the GOPers who defend gun owners rights avoided the draft.

Teddy; all true. If there’s a tie-in to a wingnut group, they will do anything to somehow sever it.

OTOH, if Isis is right, then the second guy was walking around with Loughner just before he started shooting, which is not much of a plan.

Hard to figure.

My college library had Mein Kampf. The college (and its library) was ‘private’ but open to anyone: “… a private, liberal arts [Christian] college…”.

really dont like being shot AT

Good point Teddy good point..

Not a gun sight, but one of the Mac’s default avatars is a target. Jeebs, I wish I hadn’t brought it up now.

Yep. The whole damn state sounds like fertile ground for militia/vigilante action.

it was a horror ,the horror

If this incident doesn’t cause massive boycotts of the people who advertise with the hate merchants like Limbaugh and Beck, then I’ve lost all hope for my country and it’s people. Whether this is related or not is irrelevant at this point. The fact that they poisoned the atmosphere is still there, ragardless of this guy’s politics, state of mind or book list.

Teddy’s been Pulitzer-perfect today. Great stuff all day as a headliner and commenter.

Arizona. Home of the minutemen border vigilantes.

My library district (very rural and conservative) has three copies. If you check out WorldCat.org, there are at least three copies in the Tucson area to include the community college and the public library.

Ah but what kind of political mind would put Marx and Hitler as favorite books and not have anything more modern about politics in their favorite reads? Where did the interest in this congresswoman come from?
Many lefties read Righty books and vice a versa but you don’t see Lefties saying Bush’s new Book is a must read favorite. You don’t see Ann Coulter saying I cried when I read Obama’s book.
The book list sounds funny.

Every one?

I do agree AitchD..

This guy go to private school?

it is an amazing rant…Dr.Kaye should analyze it for us

LOL

same here,somebody composed it,it is all over the map

Looks like the Tuscon Teabaggers won’t be softening their rhetoric:

“I think anytime you start suppressing freedom of speech, I think it’s wrong. I live here and I didn’t hear anything [in the 2010 campaign] that concerned me in terms of inciting violence.”

Bullshit.

Ok I admit I’m wrong about Mein Kampf being unpopular cripes I thought Illinois was a racist cesspool of a state.

Boycott, schmoycott. We’ve got plenty of damn fine hackers not only on our side but also viscerally opposed to the hate mongers, and this time they’ll take the gloves off.

i dont think it is a common read,i was a history major,and did a paper on Hitler and Mussolini

they MUST be shamed,utterly SHAMED

They’re EXACTLY like two year olds. I swear they are.

Freedom of speech if my right dammit!!! (no thought about any responsibility that comes with it.)

The money I earned is MINE dammit! (no thought about any responsibility to community or society)

Just like two year olds taking everything literal to make an argument with.

Two year old assholes.

David Dayen is upstairs…
House of Representatives Suspends All Legislative Activity for Next Week After Giffords Shooting

If this second suspect story is true well what are the odds 2 people who want to kill a congresswoman found each other without joining local hate groups or meeting on the hate web sites?
I want to know if this guy had access to a computer or was a member of any group? Given his book choices he seems like he might be a Tea Bagger?

wanna know the real problem
people like Limpballs,Beck and Palin…are celeb heroes and paid enormous amounts of money…the rubes IDOLIIZE these cretins

My private, liberal arts Christian college wasn’t a state college, city college, or community (county) college. Private colleges aren’t ordinarily thought of as ‘private schools’. Many charge less tuition and fees to residents of their state. Plus, I know that ‘public’ community colleges have copies of Mein Kampf in their libraries. You can do a search online of most libraries holdings and see for yourself.

Things,
No, libraries are in forefront of the protection of our liberties. They have these books, because people need to be able to read them for themselves and not be told what to believe about them.

Libraries also have their databases set to delete the record of what you have read. They aren’t very fond of FBI demand letters. If there is no information in the database, they can’t provide it.

Especially, you might be able to more easily control a mentally sick person. But, lets be careful about all these facts until it is known who this person is, and more of the facts are known.

Probably irrelevant.. but curious…

http://www.amphigory.com/oz.htm

as for the syllogisms, I wouldn’t say they are mangled; you can’t be that wrong by accident..

And Tea Party Terrorism….

At this time I only wish that any God she may believe in is watching over her and peace be with those who were so senselessly killed.

Here is the “favorite books” list from the YT site:

Books:
I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10?feature=chclk

Again, the past tense.

They can’t be shamed, they can’t be humiliated, they can’t be contradicted — but they can be hacked, scrambled, and rendered silent and invisible. We have savvy allies who are their enemies. They will be virtually assassinated.

Two year old assholes.

With the rights to vote and own guns.

One good thing that will come out of this tragedy; I think it will be a good while before people will be seen carrying firearms at public gatherings in Arizona.

I think they have concealed carry, though, don’t they?

Arizona: a good place to be from. (I had the misfortune of living there for 3 years; got the hell out of there as quickly as possible).

Well said Teddy. After watching the Sheriff’s speech I agree with you that he is clearly disgusted with the Wild West anarchy that seems to prevail there. He doesn’t need any self appointed vigilantes to assist, they do more harm than good.

And publically calling AZ the “mecca of prejudice and bigotry” is a brave and courageous act.

How’s that crosshair mappy thing workin’ out for ya?

Has it been released the type of gun that was used?
I thought Glock high cap mags only held 15 shots
I still think there were 2 shooters

That OZ struck me as off (because it was capitalized).

With so much election literature featuring the ratio of 16 oz of silver to 1 oz of gold, the colourful utopia just had to be called Oz.

The Wizard, of course, is a charlatan who tricks people into believing he wields immense power; even his Emerald City is only an optical illusion. (emerald-green paper money is likewise a delusion.)

To achieve true freedom for herself and her allies Dorothy must destroy the Wicked Witch of the West — who enslaves the girl before being dissolved by a bucket of water. (The western elite, especially land barons and mortgage holders, are the remaining obstacle; rain relieves the drought and permits the farmer to assert his superior power.)

http://prosperityuk.com/2001/01/a-wonderful-wizard-of-oz-a-monetary-reform-parable/

Florid mental illness isn’t a defense.

Most states today define insanity as suffering from a mental disease or defect such that a person cannot tell the difference between right and wrong and conform their conduct to the requirements of law. Insanity is an affirmative defense that the defendant must prove by a preponderance of the evidence. If a defendant pleads not guilty by reason of insanity, the defendant admits committing the act that caused the victim’s death and now must convince the jury to find that they were insane. If they are successful, they still go to prison rather than a mental hospital. They remain there subject to periodic reviews that are held to determine if they are safe to be released. Needless to say, they rarely are. Therefore, we don’t see the insanity defense much anymore.

The key issue in an insanity case is whether the defendant could tell right from wrong at the time the defendant killed the victim. The defense probably wouldn’t prevail, for example, even if a defendant were psychotic and killed the victim because he believed the victim reads Sutter Caine and the next door neighbor’s dog ordered him to do it to save the world.

Wy?

If there is any evidence that he knew that killing another person is against the law, such as an attempt to flee, or to conceal or get rid of evidence, the defense will fail because those actions show an awareness that he had committed a crime.

In the 30 years that I was a felony criminal defense lawyer, I never encouraged my clients to go for the insanity defense unless the prosecution was willing to stipulate that my client was legally insane. That only happened once in the late seventies. Since there wasn’t any mental health treatment in prison and they might end up serving more time, I never saw any point in going that route.

Shock, or express his deep sense of alienation and “otherness” from the society.

Crossposted comment of mine, from my own posting, written before I’d heard about this second suspect being sought:

I have personal experience, and even testified in the death penalty phase, of a client who was in a folie a trois with two other people, and they killed three people in the SF Bay Area. It was a big story in the paper. I knew this client from my days at Kaiser, and he was a bipolar (probably) individual who was also sociopathic, and hyped up on meth or other drugs.

I learned painfully and at first hand how in a limited number of cases insane people can come together to commit a horrendous crime. I don’t know if that’s the case in this shooting, but the fact there was more than one person involved (if true) doesn’t mean that mental illness isn’t the primary factor here. The background factor — which is still crucial to this story — is the hate speech from the right, as I and others have pointed out. This is not letting people off the hook, but only stating what the state of our knowledge about this appears to point to at this point. Future developments may change that picture.

What analysis has Palin done? What bona fides does she have in economics? Does she know anything about the structure of the debt? She supported the tax cuts for the rich. How does she explain that support and it’s adding to the debt? She wants HCR repealed even though it adds to the debt more than 200 billion dollars. What qualifies this woman to speak credibly about any federal factual data? When will people in the media ask a REAL QUESTION?

hed make a really really bad witness, so yes.

George de Mohrenschildt. The woman in the polka dot dress. Raul.

Let me ask it again: Why isn’t the suspect considered a terrorist & on his way to Guantanamo?

It WAS a brave and courageous act. And a very honest one, too. Dupnik has obviously had enough of the John Wayne culture. For a law enforcement official to speak that definitively of the cost of the rhetorical violence that has been going on across the country, and especially, in his own state, was a fine thing.

this is so huge an act of political violence that it will be quite a while in unravelling. the sherrif in his press conference let us know that the congresswoman was specifically targeted, (and that he hopes right wing obviously, by definition, “political” violence. Remeber that for days after OK city MSM were suggesting “Muslim Terrorists”, until they were told by the FBI that it wasnt.

WHAT is Obama’s Administration doing? Has it NO moral fiber, NO backbone? My God, this is a sitting Congresswoman, a sitting Federal Judge & other innocent people! If this isn’t just like a suicide bomber, what is it?
What’s Obama going to do, demand a high bail and then say the suspect’s a whacko & deserves to be sentenced to a psycho ward for 6 months?

what should obama admin be doing, that would actually help anyone?

Mein Kampf? I read it in high school. Checked it out of the library like any other book. (Dear Ghod, that book is boring!) We read the Communist Manifesto in English class.

In Arizona.

What are they teaching kids nowadays? What happened to “know your enemy”? (And you kids, get off my lawn! :-)

To answer my own question, they’re teaching “I will tell you who your enemies are and why they are bad. I will tell you why we are good. Whatever you do, don’t think for yourself and don’t learn rational analysis.”

At this very moment, Obama is desperately trying to find out if Shirley Sherrod has a new job so he can have her fired again.

Based on his suicide note, it sounds like the assassin didn’t intend to survive. But there don’t seem to be many details regarding his capture. If there is anyone else behind this horrendous massacre maybe it will be uncovered. I hope the shooter is being guarded 24/7.

Is that what you really want?

Arizona allows loaded firearms in vehicles. So I guess firearm access is part of the population. And the hate for the immigrants, migrants and Mexican drug dealers is growing. It exist in Catholic church hierarchy that I know. Hatefullness is an accceptable social value. A ticking time bomb that exploded today, who knows where next.

PUBLICLY CALL THE GUY A TERRORIST & PUT HIM ON A PLANE TO GUANTANAMO! HE’S A TERRORIST, ISN’T HE? THEN, IF OBAMA WEREN’T AN AMORAL HACK, HE’D TELL THE COUNTRY WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ABSOLUTELY!

I have relatives that are in law enforcement and have heard some of the madness they have to face every day. I don’t know how they can stand it. One can only imagine what Sheriff Dupnik has seen in his career and it was clear enough that this incident today was for him, the last straw.

He mentioned the culture of madness no less than three times in his speech, the last time pointing at the assembled crowd to emphasize his statement.

Bless him for taking the gloves off and calling it like it is.

In his words:

Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, speaking about Arizona:

“When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.

“It’s not unusual for all public officials to get threats constantly, myself included. And that’s the sad thing of what’s going on in America. Pretty soon, we’re not going to be able to find reasonable, decent people who are willing to subject themselves to serve in public office.”

He’s the President, not a Preacher. He’s the elected leader of our Country, isn’t he? Is there NOTHING, except Progressives independent enough to dare challenge his Corporatist sponsored agenda, make him mad enough to fight for?

Thanks for a very interesting link …

Re: the book list. Perhaps those WERE his favorite books, before he lost the ability to sit and read at length, as he descended into mental illness. Many mental diseases manifest themselves in the late teen and early twenties, including schizophrenia.

The other possibility is that he thinks he has risen above those simple tomes, into his advanced intellectual state, where he spins out illogical syllogisms. Under this theory, he thinks he is setting up an insanity defense, which is why he didn’t try to kill himself at the scene.

I’m with Thingscomeundone – what are the odds two people with intent to kill a congresswoman just found each other, without the intervening help of some shadow group?

You’re welcome. Perhaps because I am borderline schizophrenic, or perhaps because I have studied logic at the graduate level, the syllogisms didn’t particularly bother me. Using the Wizard of Oz as a ‘logic’ seems apt. A wizard manipulating the operations behind a curtain- there is a certain metaphorical aptness to TP populist groups with corporations behind the curtain?
it does seem curious.

A puppeteer?

if there was a second guy, then handler is my bet

You nailed it. As you have a tendency to frequently do. Unfortunately, the Becks and Limbaughs of America will NOT STFU, not now, not ever, unless someone else shuts them up permanently in a Twilight Zonish scene of their own rhetoric coming back to haunt them. I am not advocating that, just saying it wouldn’t surprise me much if it happened.

As for them really being ready for civil war, they are definitely not ready, for their money would dry up. They really ought to reflect on the old saying: Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

They are already eating crow. Seems the shooter did try to enlist in the Army, and was rejected. Reason unknown.

Think about it: if a group of power has a certain technology or tactic they WILL use it. So are we to believe that parts of our own gov. have developed and perfected mind control ie: MKULTRA, but just don’t use it because we don’t hear about it?
It is such a powerful tool for this power structure “bankers” that has hijacked our government, and others worlwide. The people have this important power balance in the form of firearms and free speech that limits the federal governments ability to piss us off too badly and keeps them from completely raping us. They want us helpless just like muggers and other criminals soooo:
Take a loner who is in a psychologist office setting and program him to cause a situation that you can present a solution to: he kills some random people and two important figures “good timing” and now you have a good reason to enact restrictions on free speech and firearms that you wanted in the first place without an outcry for fear of this happening again. An anti-gov person isn’t likely to knowingly cause these reactions that will further increase gov. power.
The second man strongly appears to be the kids “handler”.

As far as gun control the kid wasn’t old enough to purchase a handgun legaly anyway. No restrictions or laws will ever prevent someone from going outside the law to attain one, they could even be made in machine shops once the invention is here it is here to stay. So the only practical thing to do is allow non criminal citizens from being able to defend themselves, could have been stopped by someone with a carry permit. What the hell is a politician doing without someone with a firearm in public. Poeple need to realize that every single person on the planet has the ability at any given moment to kill or injure just about anyone around them if they wanted to guns or not. Just a matter of being able to defend yourself and trying to keep morality and the value of human life a priority, the media/entertainment is working to make us cold blooded.