Let’s talk about something outside of the usual he-said-she-said political stuff, something completely off the beaten path.
And maybe something so far off road it’s not of this planet.
This past week former military personnel came forward at the National Press Club in Washington D.C. to discuss what they believe were close encounters with UFOs in 1967. Media reports about these disclosures mentioned the specific case of a nuclear weapon site at Malmstrom Air Force Base in Montana, at which the missiles were disabled or deactivated at the same time unidentified objects were reported flying over the facility.
What this week’s scattered media reports didn’t say was that another nuclear weapon site shared the same experience within a week of the first event: multiple missiles each at two sites, shut down by some unexplained force while unidentified objects were reported flying around the silos.
If you poke around the internet, you’re going to find all kinds of crazy stuff written by folks who appear to have parted ways with reality. But you’ll also find the same folks who spoke to the National Press Club have been trying to reach the public’s attention for years with little success. In some ways these very credible people — just listen to the former USAF officer in the video here — have been treated like liberals and progressives. They’ve been blown off as nutjobs in spite of their lucid arguments and the facts they’ve produced.
In the case of the Malmstrom incident, the government didn’t send out a military team to investigate why multiple nuclear missiles shut down. They allowed a well-known government contractor to handle the investigation. It bought the government the opportunity to discount any findings by the contractor while offering plausible deniability.
It sounds so very familiar, doesn’t it? Corporate contractors, doing the work of the government, to keep the government’s fingerprints off the subject matter at hand. . . .
The more one pokes around the internet, the more similar stories one finds like the Malmstrom event. Like these U.S. Air Force bases which have also reported events going as far back as 1963: Minot, F.E. Warren, Ellsworth, Loring, Vandenberg, Walker, Wurtsmith. And that’s just U.S. bases with nuclear missiles or equipment used for nuclear weapon deployment; there are many other events which have been documented across the country which might be related to military facilities.
Doesn’t it seem like we need to reassess what it is we are really spending our time and money on in terms of our national security? So far all these events seem really benign; they may have been investigated by the government, but the details are completely out of our reach.
But if anything remotely like these reported events had involved a person of middle eastern heritage, you can bet it would be all over Fox News and leaked to Bob Woodward for his next book.
I’ve been stewing about our grossly disproportionate and ineffective response to terrorism over the last two weeks. We’re “droning” civilians to death in foreign lands when we aren’t allowing contractors to treat civilians like targets for shooting practice. And at the same time, we have what could be far more important issues to face — real threats to our existence like climate change and the resulting changes to our ecosystem, our food and water supply.
Not to mention we might have much larger concerns that impact all humanity, like these unidentified objects, or the ones seen over China, or over Iran, or over so many other places on earth.
Until we find a way to remove the stranglehold on our national conversation, real threats are going to go unaddressed, unanswered and those of us with legitimate concerns will continue to be minimized.
And until we manage to shift the attention of our country from the latest crazy meathead of the day and re-prioritize our attention and resources — like spending real money instead of chump change on science education and NASA — we’ll completely miss what could really be the answer to mankind’s biggest mystery.
Are we alone here? Or do we have company?
What do you think? Have you ever had a close encounter? Do tell.



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rayne!
Hey Suz.
I’ve been stewing on this topic for two weeks — and presto, there’s this press release and some mainstream media reports about UFOs and a military facility.
What a coincidence…
Never met the little grey dudes myself, but if they’re in favor of nuclear disarmament they can’t be all bad.
Bear in mind that Malmstrom is in Great Falls, which is in eastern Montana. This area is home to Freemen, militias, Patriots, Aryans, and miscellaneous and assorted far right whackaloons. I think there is something in the drinking water there. Maybe they pipe it in from the Berkeley Pit in Butte.
Rahm is an alien! Quit yer whining! Clap louder!
I might think that if I hadn’t also run across other reports from places not so whackaloony, or if the folks interviewed weren’t so lucid and credible.
And I might think that if I hadn’t had a close encounter of the second kind two weeks ago myself.
Still scratching my head over it.
Rayne!
Hmmmm….Considering that the low ball estimate for the number of planets in the universe is greater than the number of grains of sand on Earth, I’m pretty comfortable saying that we aren’t alone. Whether we are being visited is a different matter altogether. Logic would seem to argue against it since the distances in space are so very huge. Consider that the New Horizons probe is the very fastest spacecraft we’ve managed to build. It is currently traveling toward Pluto at a relative velocity of better than 16 1/4 kilometers per second yet it’s going to take almost 9 years to get there. Now consider that if you made a model of the solar system out to the orbit of Pluto that was the size of a grain of salt, (not Pluto but Pluto’s orbit), on that scale the center of our galaxy would be about 20 miles away!
All of that being said, I know something about aviation and in 1980, in Houston, Texas, I saw something very odd indeed in the air. It was night and it had a pretty conventional lighting scheme but the odd thing was it was absolutely still and so very close that I should have been able to see some movement if it had been a helo but odder still, it made not a whisper of noise. I was unable to investigate further but it was less than 500 feet from the front gate of Ellington AFB and about 15 meters off the ground at most. It was for me at least a UFO as I couldn’t identify it but whether it was extra terrestrial, I have no idea.
CNN reported it, several of these former military people were on with Larry King as did others. The earth is only 4.5 billion years old, yet our universe is 14.5 billion years old. To look up to the skies on a clear night and think that we are the only life form that exists is hard to imagine. Perhaps there is more at stake in governments wanting to keep this in the realm of mental cases and nut jobs. As explained by Mr.Pope who once headed the British governments version of what we do here, if it were proven that alien life does exist, governments and religion would crumble. Perhaps there’s a good reason those who believe are considered crazy.
maybe its the testing grounds for that dc water that zombiefies the brains of politicians
I think the citizens of Butte have found a way to make the Pit profitable again (in its day it was called the “richest hill in America”).
Maybe its Meth? My view is yes there is intelligent life the odds of how many other planets having life are too high.
They prove their intelligence by not visiting us.
I can’t believe that I got accused of being a right winger on the Prop 19 thread. I guess I have to add snark tags for the newcomers.
we do seem to get an influx of newcomers when jane’s on the teevee machine
That, too. I pretty much agree with you on the aliens thing. Also worth noting that we are way out on the edge of our galaxy, which dramatically reduces the likelihood of visits.
Many of whom leap before they look apparently. M’eh, that’s been the kind of day I’ve been having…
Gods, Fairies, Aliens man has always had some legends of advanced beings. Names change the story remains the same.
No, we are about two thirds of the way out. And don’t be fooled by the images in your mind’s eye. Even the thinness of our galactic plane is relative. We are surrounded on all sides by stars.
You a Right Winger… Bwahahha!
Linda Moulton Howe is probably the most credible journalist who’s covered those incidents.
Her web site.
Yeah, your description sounds a lot like what I saw. I was on my way home about an hour after sunset, when I saw what I thought was a plane at first. But the longer I followed it — it was headed in the same direction I was going, I should say — it was clear it wasn’t a plane.
I live near an airport, have resided under the flight path of many kinds and sizes of planes. I can even tell when it’s foggy outside while I’m still in bed in the morning, because I won’t hear the first two commuter flights take off and fly overhead.
Whatever this was flew much, much slower than a plane; I saw a small Piper fly around it, as if evading it. I made a point of shutting off my engine at a stop sign to listen for it, and I couldn’t hear a thing, unlike all the helicopters which fly regularly by my house.
I have my doubts about the economy of interstellar travel, so I’m a skeptic on UFOs per se, but I’d be very surprised to know that this was the only planet that had produced (allegedly) intelligent life.
Yep.
Ok if Aliens did exist yes they would be interested in our nukes thats a given they would not want us to kill ourselves but what else would they be interested in and why?
I think the anal probe stories are just excuses Red Staters give for going to Gay Bars do Red State Women ever report getting anal probed?
I first saw this in the UK Torygraph (!) and then Raw Story. Sorry too tired/lazy for linkies, but some interesting as hell comments in both places.
Shit hovering in the air above your nuke crapola, then the systems all going dead, one after another, down the line?
Straight-arrow military guys talking about this. Just damn.
Maybe Shirley MacLaine will turn out to be not wacky at all ..
Hi Rayne!
Here’s my thoughts on extra-terrestrial life.
The most likely things we’ll find in Space are replications of things we’ve already found. Why? Because the same forces are at work everywhere in the Universe.
All planets are…round. We don’t find any cube-shaped planets. All visible stars put out light and heat.
If we bring the same causes and conditions together, we get the same results.
Therefore, having Humans on Earth means complex life forms will very likely exist wherever there are Earth-like conditions – which in this vast Universe means it’s almost certain that there are other life-forms capable of symbolic communication, in addition to us.
Now, all that being said – finding each other is likely to be a statistical challenge…
The plane of the galaxy is also inclined at 60° from our plane of ecliptic and you can see thousands of stars no matter which direction you look. No, we are far from isolated in our neighborhood.
Yeah, I was an airframe mechanic so I know a little bit about flight and if this thing had airfoils, then they were invisible ones….
I doubt that we know anything about anything, but I guess we believe we know stuff, having been trained well.
Exactly. Why would it be a threat ? Seems to me I would be very grateful for a world without nuclear weapons.
* snerk *
Too funny. I’d almost buy that as a legitimate excuse if it wasn’t for the fact most red-staters I know are complete morons when it comes to science. Unconvincing liars, they’d be.
I have no doubt there is other life out there but I think likely so different from our experience of life as to be near unrecognizable It doesn’t even have to be carbon based as we are.
As I understand all the geological and climatic changes the the earth has gone through in its billion or so years of history I realize how very transient the species have proven to be and we are not likely to endure longer that average.
To consider ourselves as the pinnacles of some evolution toward perfection is theological but hardly scientific.
I find it the height of narcissisms to assume aliens would give a rat’s ass over whether we survive or not, much less set up a story book message by deactivating specific weapons systems.
I think I would be beyond surprised. Like I said, the math just wouldn’t allow us to be the only ones. A low ball estimate is about a million civilizations just in our own galaxy. That would make the total about 100 million billion.
I think there’s intelligent life in the universe. I’m just not sure we qualify any more.
I think my views of our position in the galaxy were mostly shaped by one of the old Carl Sagan series on PBS. That was how he always described it. Can’t say i was ever all that into astronomy.
Yes, I subscribe to a similar sentiment, although my current opinion is informed by Stephen Wolfram’s work on cellular automata. It explained more readily to me why we see recurring ratios like Fibonacci sequence throughout nature.
If certain cellular automata — tiny “scripts” — are universal in nature, then we should see very similar development patterns elsewhere in the universe. The question is whether we’d recognize them if they were very early or very late in their iterations.
Carl Sagan was great at piquing peoples’ interest in science. Yes, he described us as “way out on the edge” but it’s more complicated than that. It was also prior to Hubble. Carl Sagan for example didn’t know our galaxy is a barred spiral rather than a classic spiral.
As I say, not really my thing, though I watched his series at the time and occasionally watch something now. I have always been much more into the living world, and especially people (maybe why I am an anthropologist).
We look like we do because we evolved here. It is likely that under very similar conditions, there will be similar solutions to the environment but that’s not guaranteed at all. For example here on Earth, eyes have evolved at least five separate times. But though they are similar in some ways, they are not identical. Take compound eyes for example.
I was never good enough at math to be an astronomer which was my dream but it makes a wonderful hobby too. :)
Water’s Bad, Not For THAT Reason.
*G*
Loved Carl Sagan’s Cosmos series as well as his larger body of work.
But Carl believed we were probably alone, unique on this tiny blue speck, since most other lifeforms which could have evolved to make the trip here probably would have exterminated themselves first.
The Press Club website comes up blank. Why?
Gonna hit the hay good folks. My day has been absolutely dismal but I’m glad I was able to share part of my evening with such bright, inquisitive people. Thanks for the thread Rayne! :) Oya!
Yeah, Carl was a bit of a fatalist. Still he and a colleague came up with the Drake equation which is still used though it’s had to be adjusted.
There’s no reason not to suspect that processes are universally replicatable.
In a standard temperature and pressure environment, two hydrogens will combine with an oxygen to form water, and that water – everywhere in the universe – will have the characteristic that its solid form, ice, is less dense than its liquid form – so the ice will float on top of the water.
The same chain of processes, from the micro to the macro, would unfold from the simple to the complex under the same conditions.
True, but we originated from the same material, just with increasing numbers of dip switches flipped on and off.
Somewhere along the way our dip switches for wings and compound eyes were turned off while they were flipped on in genetics for other creatures.
“Intersteller travel” – we even talk as though superior-intelligence beings would just get in a car like us, and “travel” according to our concept. We think our astrophysics and a few smart 20th c. guys are the end of the discussion. Maybe they’re merely the beginning.
Remember Max Planck himself, ca. 1890, saying physics was over as a discipline, because everything had been explained?
Night. think I will toddle off as well. Take care all.
Good night. Hope tomorrow gets better.
I’m going to wander off as well. Peace out, y’all!
g’nite margaret
g’nite dr dick
Yeah to yer last line . . . but.
In the outer reaches of the universe (expanding and much older) there’s MUCH more potential for life’s development, as there’s been more time.
Course ya gotta be a believer in the big bang boom theory and the collapsing theory.
Which adds billions of billions of billions of years to to time.
And in and of itself says, shit expands, and then collapses.
Endlessly.
*G*
Not certain why — just tried the Press Club link myself and I got the event announcement.
If you want to try to track it down yourself, google National Press Club, go to their events page, then look at the events for 25-SEP. That’s when these former military folks spoke to the Press Club.
Which is why I nudge and nag yet again that we need to spend less money on freaking wasteful warfare and more on science.
We are still babes in the woods, there’s so much more we haven’t learned.
And I am just heartsick that we haven’t figured out how to commercialize multiple forms of fuel cells; this should already have been done and at scale.
One last word before I’m out: I admire your inquisitiveness but your science is wrong. Your viewing things too Earth centric. There are no “standard pressures”, they vary from hard vacuum to pressures that produce liquid metallic hydrogen and beyond and temperatures vary from about 3K to hundreds of millions of degrees. The universe is so vast and varied that it all but is truly infinite. I recommend “A Brief History of Time” by Stephen Hawking. Nighty night. :)
Like the Dalai Lama says – “The Big Bang? No problem, just not the only Big Bang.”
We are stardust…
CSNY – Woodstock
Isn’t ‘life’ a human construct with its specialized definition(s)? As such, it’s not a very reliable term or concept except for idle or religious discussion.
What, exactly, is fire? It’s not an abstraction like an image can be an abstraction. It’s tangible, and available to most of our senses (not sure about taste). It’s not solid, liquid, or gas.
I’ll check it out, but ‘under standard temperature and pressure’ where it’s found, you’ll find the same chains of processes unfolding, imvho.
Fire is plasma, an ionized gas, the fourth state of matter.
And I said, there are no standards, they vary almost to infinity. What is “standard” for us may be unique in a million worlds.
So, Rayne, it’s okay to talk about aliens…
…but pointing out that there’s no way World Trade Center Building #7 collapsed exactly like a controlled demolition unless it was a controlled demolition.
That’s crazy talk.
- Even though there’s government publications showing the US government started development of exotic thermite type demolitions compounds at Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore between 1997-1999.
- Remnant evidence has been found in every sample of WTC ash tested by independent labs of that same type of exotic thermite demolitions material
My chemistry prof told us that plasma exists way out in space where temps can be beyond believable. Fire is icy by comparison.
Great post Rayne.
Myself, I believe there are other life forms out there.
I also believe there are other forms of travel besides below or above E=mc3.
I’m not an astrophysics genius. I’m not a cosmologist.
Hell, I’m not even a scientist, or well educated in the sciences beyond junior college astronomy and cosmology.
But I think there’s other life out there.
And I think there’s science to allow for inter stellar and inter galactic travel, at some point.
IF our species survives the next few years!
*G*
Great read, thanks.
*G*
I see said the blind man!
Sleep well!
I tend to agree with Margaret here. If you do a little research into more current theories on gravity, you’ll find a lot of quirky things happen when in more extreme environs than here on earth.
Time, for example, isn’t constant, and the universe isn’t uniformly spread, as just two examples of factors which can change outcomes.
*G*
And we’ve got to get back to the garden.
*G*
How about a little T.Rex summertime blues
Yay! Great nahant.
I’m shamefully ignorant. So I ask maybe naive questions, like this: Is there any literature that suggests gravity (as one of the four forces) pulsates omnidirectionally, emphasis on pulsates?
Rayne, and Margaret if you are still up, have you ever checked-out Bell’s Theorem?
It says that there are ‘no local realities.’
Bell wondered what would happen if he split a coherent light beam into two separate beams using mirrors – and then changed the phase of one of the beams. What he discovered was that the phase of the unaltered beam changed also – instantaneously – meaning that the phase change occured faster than the speed of light, which wasn’t thought possible.
When the implications got hashed out, the conclusion was that there are no local realities.
Black holes tend to fuck up a lot of common theory, yes.
*G*
Quarks, Quantom Theory and more do so, also.
I know little of these matters, I only know these matters exist.
And it’s fun to read lay person’s thoughts on it all!
Heh, some of the comments are quite a delight to read, too!
Nice diary.
*G*
I don’t know about pulsing, per se, but gravity isn’t uniform. You can learn more about gravity on our planet at NASA’s Amazing Grace site.
Gravity is lumpy — like our planet.
Or my gravy.
I recommend Scientific American to even try and keep up with such things… Seems knowledge is accelerating faster than the lay person can keep up with… so much to learn and so little time in one lifetime.. sigh ..
I hear you!
However, for an Earth-like planet situated an Earth-like distance from a Sun-like star, STP will produce the same chains of processes that we see here, is all I’m saying.
Similarly, under different conditions – such as those found at the extremes, the processes in play there will be exactly the same as found in other similar extremes, imvho.
Geebuz yer a head banger!
I’ve had my moments, but T-Rex never really got to me after Bang A Gong.
And honestly I’m VERY fussy with my head bangin music.
The mid 60′s had some GREAT headbanghers . . . Electric Prunes, Blues MaGoo’s, 13th Floor Elevator and more.
*G*
Billy Thorpe – Children of the Sun
*G*
Worm holes.
*G*
Bent space.
Folded space.
*G*
Is anything naturally occurring ‘uniform’?
Yep, beyond me for decades . . .
But always a delight to read layman’s thoughts on the subjects.
Which I get to do at times.
*G*
well here is a change up fer ya Larue..Lovin’ Spoonful – Summer In The City
damn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWXcjYNZais
Actually, my conclusion for the shutdown reason is the ET’s were conducting a survey and damn well didn’t want to have those missiles launched at them. It’s unlikely they would have so complete an understanding of their purpose and target that they would feel safe in not disarming the mechanism.
I been reading scientific American for over 20 years.. I love ta learn..
For you science types, this is a great site to follow. It’s delivered daily to your e-mail.
http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/
It’s the Fermilab site.
One time ago, an olden auto mechanic, in his 60′s I’d guessed, diagnosed a faulty alternator belt on my 78 Chevy with his sense of smell. The malfunction was too incidental for the computer and other diagnostic devices to discern.
I fix computer HW including that sense as well.
I’m way over 60! (And it still works, although other things I have my druthers over don’t!
The nose is one of the first tools of troubleshooting that you should use… As they say the “Nose Noes” Plain and simple..
Yeah, am familiar with Bell, but you’re going to want to go the next step and read David Bohm’s work on implicate and explicate order and holograms, and then one more to the holographic theory of the universe, which these folks toss around a bit.
I’m still wrestling with information loss.
That’s where the term “nosing around” comes from.
AitchD and Starbuck
Red Barchetta - Rush
Well nitey night pups…
And of course, the famous experiment by Alan Aspect proved it.
Locality always troubled me. How far apart do you have to be in order to be non-local? 1/2 photon?
A long time fav hit . . .*G*
Bohm is one of my favorite physicists.
g’nite nahant
All depends on your definition of “uniform.”
If you look at Wolfram’s cellular automata, what appears irregular initially can become “smooth” over time — but the automata might have to run millions of iterations before it acquires that appearance.
O Rayne! Explicate and implicate! How sexy!
I’ll toss Bohm and the holographers onto my reading list!
I’m all for more money for Nasa…! Nasa runs both Gemini Observatories…!
Btw, I’ve not seen any up top, myself, but, I’ve heard some tales about UFO’s buzzing the domes…! ;-)
There’s literal brain cell matter at the upper extreme of the nostrils. The other organs of perception all have mediators to the brain.
Then how come they don’t share their technology with Democrats and showing them how to disable Republicans? I mean, if they’re gonna fly at least 20 light years to get here, that’s the least they could do. Then they can take Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Sharron Angle with them.
On a personal note, we’re gonna have a tough time making the rent tomorrow. Anything you kind people could do to help would be greatly appreciated. More details are here or here (My new blog).
When technology catches up to science we’ll see a lot of new toys,
Including anti grav and more.
Till then we’re all held capture to the PTB and their control of both the technology AND the science.
And if that capture continues, we be doomed as a species.
I’m sure atoms must be far enough apart after “syncing” to rule out any interference. My guess would be at least an atom’s width, but I could be wrong. Might also have to do with the mass of the atoms in question.
[edit: and being tired, I completely forgot about the possibility that the non-local action is really based on string theory. Ugh. I really have to brush up on that.]
Aw, man, that sounds like perception, like appearance. Can ‘smooth’ be measured? Yes? Can that measuring device or formula be further refined? No? Really? No?
Aspect showed interference at what? 1 meter? It had to be far enough to allow for only superluminal communication to account for the outcome.
Fabulous experiment!
Another favorite of mine is Ilya Prigogine. His “The End of Certainly” is a tour de force. I got one of the galley proofs for that book.
What an interesting article! Does this mean the military is no longer afraid of being ostracized by admitting they have seen UFOs? And great to read a thread that does not blame Obama for it.
Appearance is all we have. It’s all in the brain.
Okay, I checked-out the Information Loss Paradox and I’m inclined to go with the majority in the Poll – the information that goes into the Black Hole comes out in the radiation, which I imagine to be a form of auto-regeneration for the Universe.
Or it’s all we can test and affirm as such. Bacon’s Idols…
Scientific Determinism has been falsified by Karl Popper (See Open Universe).
Yes by having a common language with which to affirm. That has nothing to do with appearance or it’s proof.
Test and affirm color. To a blind person.
I’m in over my poor engineer’s head here, but is the Law of Conservation of Energy still iron-clad?
Last time I looked it still is.
You would find the Prigogine book of interest.
Or left-handed/right-handed to a Martian over a hypothetical telephone phone (without visible character keys or a dial).
Color can be described by its frequency of radiation, as formulae.
Thanks, I’ll check it out! I loves me some scientific elegance!
Great article, Rayne, and outstanding comments!
Have a good nite, all…
Ion-clad, yes. Iron-clad, hell no, what century are you in? Typical gear-headed engineer. What, you think the cosmos, and necessarily us along with it, are some kind of mechanisms, mere automata, Newtonian voodoo dolls or something? The cosmos, and that means us, is an organism, silly. ; }
But that’s not why I stopped to comment before going off, busted wrist and all, to do relief duty as a janitor at the local community college. So much for the value of a BA in psychology. Worse, so much for my fall-back position as a house-painting poet.
I stopped by only to answer Rayne’s question of the hour. In my usual smart-ass manner. Ahem.
Have I ever had a close encounter? Hell, I’m having one right now!
There is nothing in the nature of the electromagnetic spectrum to account for the phenomenon of color. Or that it should occur at all. One cannot be absolutely sure that, even if all observers, say, when presented with a red object they affirm as “Red”, that they actually see it the same way. All you can be certain is that the response to a particular stimulus is called Red. I have been stunned by certain color combinations that produce only a dull response in others, and even objection by still others.
See! Damn near got into a decent conversation. Have fun, I bow in all y’all’s virtual directions (sure would be easier if I lived at one of the poles).
Isn’t what we call red actually what the red thing knows itself to be what we call green? And green actually red? The intrinsic color would be in its own time? By the time we see it, it’s pretty late in the day, and about 180 degrees in the shade.
That’s my understanding, too, Starbuck. Sound and color, and the rest of our perceptions of our sensations of our experiences (see how far removed we are from the thing itself, the concern of phenomenological psychologists like me, before we even begin to think in words and notations, let alone speak grammatically?) for that matter, are functions of our nervous systems. They aren’t inherent in the cosmos as we find it.
So the answer to the age-old question is no, without an eardrum (human or otherwise) to transduce the vibes into a sensation and then a perception, a tree falling in the forest makes no sound. It will certainly compress and rarify the atmosphere, but that’s different from making a sound.
Probably it would be more accurate to say a red object isn’t red, it’s reflecting red (assuming an object lit with white light) therefore it’s color is minus red which is…..Cyan!
Going back to old Cyan. That’s a western song, right?
Is there a tautological playfulness in that science? Sound = what can be heard? Can’t unheard noise cause an avalanche?
If that avalanche is headed for me, I’d be rather taut although I have been taught to do something else!
I think Plato tried to get his students to see things that way. I asked a scientist – my ophthalmologist at the time – why objects appear backwards in a mirror. He said and I quote: “That’s like asking what’s the meaning of life”. He drank a lot, he was going to cut around my eyeball, I stopped the appointments. He soon sent letters to his patients that for reasons that were none of our business, he was leaving town.
It’s Late Night! ‘Avalanche’ comes from French. The French don’t pronounce or utter most of their alphabet. It’s mostly a silent language. ‘Forest’ = ‘fôret’, no ess and the tee is silent!
Color Science and the nature of color management is quite a trip. Imagine. a whole field of study that no one really knows anything for sure, except the experiments work and people agree, sort of.
Come to think of it, electricity is the same thing!
Anyway, if it wasn’t for color science and the spinoff, color management, I would be SOL trying to get my prints to look like the monitor to look like “reality” (cough, cough!)
Certainly. But now you’re talking about noise, not sound. Don’t look now, amigo, but you’re conflating vibrations with perceptions.
The playful tautology you’re reporting may be a perception of the sensation that we just so happen to be self-same with that about which we’re discussing.
Science makes the useful but absolutely groundless assumption that observer and observed absolutely are independent. OK, so show me that boundary. It doesn’t exist. We are that about which we are chatting.
That means, every drop of poison ever spilled into “the environment” has also been spilled into us. As evidence, it’s well known that even human mother’s milk is laden with toxic wastes.
Or to paraphrase a certain Levantine mystic, that which we do to the least of us, that we do unto the Divine in all of us.
Shorter, more smart-ass reply: I got yer tautology right here.
Allow me to ask, AitchD, in these self-emptying vessels of mind we call words, what is it that is being conveyed?
These words you are reading right now never have been spoken, yet you hear them just the same. How is it that you are “hearing” these unspoken words?
Same way unheard noises can cause avalanches. Same way we do everything we ever do. Give up?
How does unheard noise cause an avalanche? How are you hearing these unspoken words?
From within!
That’s it, I really must be going. Unless you add something to which I simply must reply. It’s true that I gotta go to work, but it’s also true that I’ve got 8 hours to do 2 hours of work.
It’s perceived by the “I” and responded to by the “me”.
Wouldn’t a ‘black light’ video display ideally yield the most realistic or natural color arrangements? Or are displays superior to ‘black light’? I used to do photography, I knew that ‘white’ under incandescent light was close to ‘red’ but that our brain made the correction. Etc. I used to work in a clothing store; I often took the customer outside into the sunlight to show him the truth.
I was thinking about the opening sequence in Meetings WIth Remarkable Men, when the recorder or flutist made the cliff start to tumble down.
Are you conversant with Keats’s Ode On A Grecian Urn? By conversant, I mean can you perform it as Keats performs it?
I use north light for the same reason. I get hammered by the color management freaks about doing that rather than a controlled illumination from a continuous spectrum source at a specific color temp. Of course they disagree as to exactly what that should be.
I rather like Planck’s perspective on color. It’s a matter of the energy of the photon. Screw wavelength or frequency!
I have no support for this, but I used to think in the 1970′s that the best cinematographers used Ektachrome’s red as its reference control. It could be a carnation or Faye Dunaway’s lips.
Auguste Renoir told his son, Jean, never to clip his fingernails below the fingertips, lest he lose forever that valuable sense of touch. A painter telling a film maker!
I would have expected Kodachrome, if you are using film as a reference (Bad idea!) because Kodachrome has greater stability.
Anyway, off to bed.
Nice conversation. We should do it again.
I saw Kodachrome as pinker. Yes. We shall. Stay well.
Ah so, how very subtle of you, Starbuck. Very lucidly insightful.
If one takes time to look, you’ll notice that there are exactly three elements to our cognition (the sum of our perceptions of our sensations of our experiences). These are a) emotional or motive — our energy to move and do shit, our deisres, fears, etc.; b) sensory — energies afferent to our system; and c) perceptual — “the mind’s eye,” and ear, as we’ve seen.
Every sentence has a), or it never would be uttered. Then, to turn into behavior, it has to have a referent from the external world, or it has to have a referent to an idea.
So, by this logic (I’m giving a much shortened version of my thesis), the shortest possible sentences have just a word or two from each realm.
IMO, the root sentence of a properly human being’s awareness of being a human being (ie, empathically compassionate as opposed to belligerently competitive) is therefore, “I thou love.”
That insight, I believe, is at the root of what is metaphorically called “the second birth,” or being born again, or attaining enlightenment, and so on. Religious language is entirely metaphorical of events that are supposed to take place within us. But, as I suspect you know, the denotations have come to overshadow the connotations.
It’s not about a physical virgin birth, for example, but about the birth of this compassion-expanding insight. The Upanishads are chockablock with this message.
In particular, the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (note to self: if playing Wheel of Fortune in India, buy the frickin’ ‘a’!) puts it thus: tat tvam asi, that thou art. When a child asks, “What’s that?” the ultimate answer, in this self-same, non-dual cosmos, is simply, “Child, thou art that. And guess what? That loves that!”
So I think you can see how this worldview makes empathic compassion the proper basis for genuinely human action. Furthermore, ain’t it obvious how the Right’s preferred worldview is one, as VP for Torture for Life Dick Cheney put it, with no middle ground, no Commons?
So, how to change this world of pain? Again, just as we’re doing by creating this shared narrative of our shared perceptions of our shared experiences: from within.
Whne musicians are jamming, how does one change the tune? By going over and grabbing their hands and instruments, forcing them to comply from the outside by the application of ever greater leverage? No, of course not.
Just so, we’ll change the way society changes by using our most human, most miraculous power of effecting changes from within.
Ah crap, I’d better go. Once I get going on this topic, I lose all track of time.
Great chatting with you, AitchD and Starbuck. I’m bowing out (again).
Oh hell no. But I do know about it, that the urn is said to tease the observer out of time and into eternity. Nice allusion, very apropos.
My reaction to the video’s comments about alien UFO’s compromising national security by disarming US and Russian nuclear missles… I wish! Disarming all those missles would improve national security by protecting us from the next General Jack D. Ripper.
As for life on other planets? Sure, why not. I’ve never met an alien but that doesn’t eliminate the possibility that they exist here or elsewhere.
The distances make travel seem impossible but do we know enough to make a sound judgement about this? 4000 years ago people would have had difficulty believing that one could nearly instantly talk with someone on the other side of the planet. 4000 years doesn’t seem like a long time from the universe’s perspective.
But we lack solid evidence so Robert Salas’s out of this world testimony will be viewed as a distraction. And a distraction is just what our establishment wants right about now. Thus, CNN(vid) goes Coast-to-Coast.
Front paging UFOs at FDL?
Does this still apply:
“Diaries and comments expressed by each of The Seminal’s community members are the opinions of the individual community member author and do not reflect the opinions of The Seminal or Firedoglake and its affiliate sites.”
Or does this post actually reflect the opinions of FDL?
Answer please.
Lelsie Kean, author, of the book
UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record
“I was astonished by the care and precision of Leslie Kean’s research in this terrific book. Her analysis is carefully reasoned and to the point; her craftsmanship in organization and writing are superb. Her expose’ raises important questions:
Why does the US government create public distrust by neglecting this important topic? Why do its agencies avoid investigating cases of interference with flight operations and instead issue absurd cover-up stories?
This book is ultimately an appeal to all scholars for an “extraordinary investigation of an extraordinary phenomenon.”
—Rudy Schild, Ph.D., Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Re-read the first paragraph of this post. We needed a break. It’s also a Late Night post which traditionally has been intended as something of a cocktail hour at FDL. Or are you confusing the community diaries at The Seminal with FDL’s front page?
Secondly, the post is based on media reports this week as a result of statements by former military personnel to the National Press Club. Why are these guys less worthy of attention in that venue than David Petraeus talking with Katie Couric to crow up the so-called end of the Iraq War?
Thirdly, read the other points in this post: minimization of these guys looks a lot like same S.O.P. for any other folks who question the status quo, and our spending priorities in this country are out of whack when we clearly need more science.
Great point, and one that brings up a reality that is very hard to explain to non-musicians.
If you ask most people what it is that musicians are good at, they will tell you something like “making sound” or they may try to get deeper into it and talk about manipulating instruments or the voice to communicate emotions.
What musicians are actually good at, and what they practice is listening, and what they are masterful at, and appreciative of, is silence.
The jar may be made of clay, but what makes it useful is it’s emptiness.
Thanks for that about Kean; I missed her appearance in August on Colbert Nation.
What’s rather amusing and disconcerting is the release of records from the U.K.’s national archives about unexplained encounters.
Why doesn’t the U.S. do the same? The current administration talks up a great game about transparency, but hasn’t bothered to release records as the U.K. archives have.
The content does more damage remaining classified. The public didn’t go bonkers when it read the U.K.’s records, and no obvious threats to security came from their release. So why not do the same here?
Or is it that they have more utility being kept from the public — right now, with so little information, it would be very easy to fly a military or intelligence drone over the U.S. and treat any reports in the same manner as UFO reports, burying the information. Convenient, eh?
I was acquainted with an old farming couple from near Moose Lake; they went to church every Sunday, like many people.
On the drive home from church one Sunday morning the old man was explaining to his wife that his farming activities meant that he spent a much greater amount of time out-doors, as compared to her in-door life as a teacher and housewife, and this meant that he had seen a great many things that because she was always in the house, would never see.
The old woman asked exactly what he was talking about, and he pointed to the sky, off to the right.
“I mean like that.”
He was pointing at a UFO flying on a parallel course, clearly visible in the bright Sunday morning sky.
The route they would take home from church ran along one side of a very large cornfield, and turned to run along another side, and so they were able to watch the flying object from multiple angles and for quite a few minutes.
The old man was eighty-six at the time he told me this story, and his wife, who was in the kitchen at the time, and over-heard his words, became quite agitated at hearing him describe their experience. I could tell this because she suddenly started making a lot of noise banging pots and pans around very nervously.
I knew these people for a while, she was a very stern sort given to bossing the old man around and treating him like a naughty child. They were both very religious, but she was very “grown-up, and laid claim to a great certainty, while he was more of a mystic, and yes had a very child-like quality about him.
Over time I came to understand that what really bothered her about the UFO incident was having to accede to her husband, the possibility that his world-view, shaped by his experience, was in no way inferior to hers, just different.
When I was around them, she never tired of correcting his behavior, and his speech, and pointing out his childishness, it was as if his life was accompanied by narration.
The UFO story was notable as the only time I had ever seen her speechless, her only reaction to the silent inquiry in my eyes, was more banging of pans.
What a great anecdote! It’s really not about the UFOs, it’s about competing perspectives and worldviews — isn’t that the truth of it all?
Wow! Good morning all and still at it here!
I agree on the anecdote. If you care to look I think this contrast in world views, perhaps not on such an extreme degree, is visible in one’s own relationship to our close, long term companions.
Now I have to go make coffee before saying anything else.
Yep. The environment creates us. Not the other way around.
Mornin’ TS. Nice morning here, and the coffee is great!
This was one of the most profound discussions I’ve ever read – thanks Rayne.
And everybody.
Since this is still somewhat alive I want to post this link about Net Neutrality just sent to me:
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/09/30/1849242
Perhaps at least the mods can grab it an run with it, since no current thread is applicable.
Thanks!
magnet48 (149) — Thanks and nice to see you here.
Starbuck (150) — Appreciate the link; I’m still trying to wrap my head around what it is the government is trying to do. I can understand some of their security concerns, but I think they are going at it all wrong. I swear they don’t have particularly strong science geeks in their crowd.
Life is complicated.
The old woman was very well educated, and had a long history of lamenting the fact that she had married a farmer. On the other hand, there was no question that she loved him deeply.
He had survived the Cloquet-Moose Lake fire of 1918. I saw a photograph of him at the age of 18, standing next to a mass grave where he and some other survivors had just finished burying nearly three hundred of the dead. That photo hangs on the wall of the local Historical Society.
She taught school all her life, and that, during the time when Dyslexia and ADDHD were no excuse for not learning how to read and write.
He rarely left the farm, and considered the 36 miles to Duluth to be quite a trip.
His farm provided a stable life and a base from which she traveled the world.
She was eighty-six years old when, she and a few old friends went to China.
She made me a gift of some exquisite Chinese paper-cut art, a gift that I still cherish, and marvel at all these years later.
A gift that could easily fit in a shirt pocket.
I consider my acquaintance with this couple to have been an inexplicable gift from the universe.
Dang youse guys really had a great conversation.. I bailed too early… Thanks Rayne nice break from the regular fare☺☺☺☺
He rarely left the farm, and considered the 36 miles to Duluth to be quite a trip.
There are /were hundreds, maybe thousands of nuclear missile installations, not far from Duluth. And a Canadian experimental nuclear reactor, (now inoperative).
So, yes, if that’s of interest to non humans, that’s a good please to find them.
If there are Aliens any you see are no doubt criminals violating our quarantine. I can’t see any advanced race looking at us as anything but pariah’s.
we study single celled organisms, and protoplasm.
We’re very nearly singing the same tune, Watt4Bob, thanks for the thoughtful reply. The only difference, in the notation, is in the suffix.
Think about the ol’ glass half-empty or half-full dilemma. Which is it? The suffix -ness is nominative; it denotes characteristics of extant things. But, as this most enlightening thread has already shown, we already know that the assumption of an absolute self/other is unfounded. As I said before, we are that which we are discussing.
So, the glass can only be half-empty or -full if it is abstracted out of time. In the real universe, water is always evaporating (unless it’s near absolute zero), as evident when frozen foods nevertheless burn.
Where you say emptiness, I say self-emptying. Allow me to demonstrate by laying out a quick sketch of how our brains are working.
What do we mean when we say a thing is or is not? We refer to our thinking about it. A thing is both a noun, a unit of speech, and a think, a unit of thought.
Words are fantastic for demonstrating what I call the principle of the self-emptying vessel. Words and brains function just the same.
Neuronal models of stimuli, distributed patterns of activity that produce the holograms of our mind’s sensaround cinema, are the self-emptying vessels of mind, into which experience is pouring; from which our shared awareness of this shared narrative of our shared experience is arising like steam; and out of which our cognition and behavior are flowing like water.
Just so with words. So one might as well ask, is this word half-full or half-empty?
So it’s not just the empty vessel, nor is it just the flow, nor is it just the friction between the two (however exquisite that intercourse may be). There’s a fourth element.
We all know it, nevertheless none can say what “it” is, and that’s because this “it” of which we speak is precisely that, as the Upanishads put it, from which words turn back having not comprehended, defined, described, delimited the ultimate source of our word-bound awareness itself.
Likewise, it’s not a teacher, nor the curriculum, nor the student; in this context, the fourth element is what we all know as “getting a good education,” the interaction between all three and the time-space in which they are embedded.
One good riddle deserves another. Riddle me this, fellow fierce firedogs: When a snowman goes for a swim, what is it that gets wet?
We are people made of snow, out for a swim, till there’s nothing left but this oceanic awareness.
What a blast, thanks for getting to know y’all, if you know what I mean by ‘know.’ I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: Here at the Lake, we give good mind. ; }
Revising and extending my remarks.
Corrections: “The suffix -ness is
nominativenominal;….” The suffix -ing is in the present imperfect, it’s ongoing, in motion, happening. Life isn’t so much a ‘-ness’ thing, although it is handy to speak of things that way sometimes, as it is an ‘-ing’ thing, as in being. Much of human suffering comes from trynig to turn us ongoing events into static, named, known, defined, contained, predictable things.If you must be a thing, at least be an -ing thing.
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Source notes:
Alan Watts first came up with the heuristic “a thing is a think” back in the 70s, maybe 60s.
Seeing Through the Net (video)
Seeing Through The Net 1 & 2 ($2 audio download; parts 3 & 4, as well as many others, also available from AW’s Downloads section)
This is my own partial transcription of the relevant portion of STTN part 2. It relates to the question of UFO sigtings in that the fundamental question raised by such reports is, was that a real thing, or what?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’m getting this view of the difference between the suffixes from Daniel Palmer, Masao Abe, Zen Buddhism, and Social Ethics, Journal of Buddhist Ethics, 1997. Basically, it’s all about interdependence and mutual arising.
(If the Sanskrit terms look funny, the Web page has this note:
* To view the diacritics on this page, you must install the Indic Times font on your machine and have a browser capable of displaying the Unicode (utf-8) character set.
* Obtain a paginated version of this article)
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The Beatles, I Am The Walrus (video), 1967.
“I am he
As you are he
As you are me
And we are all together”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And so on.
D’oh, can’t get the link to Palmer’s article to take.
Masao Abe, Zen Buddhism, and Social Ethics
The Mayan greeting translates into “I am another yourself”.