The dentist that we have been going to for several years has a lot of religious stuff in the waiting room. He has one assistant that has a radio playing religious stuff all the time. No one has ever actually said anything and we simply changed to having our teeth cleaned by someone who has never mentioned religion in any way, even though she talks a lot. This is the only business that we frequent here in the most liberal part of NC that I have noticed religion’s being flaunted.

Here in CNY, I’ve seen none of that. But, I get it. The closest I’ve come to what you’ve experienced was my fave pizza parlor having FoxNews on the tv. I asked them to turn it and they did.

When people tell me to have a blessed day, or Happy Easter, for that matter, I calmly inform them that I am not a Christian and that it is not appropriate for them, as the representative of a business, to assume that I share their beliefs.

Dunno what I might have done about the all black/big cross thing; nothing, probably. Maybe a comment about “extremes of dress can be off-putting”?

I have seen this increasing lately, and like you am inclined not to continue going there than being pressured.

Also will not submit to Faux, that I do on a regular basis, and have never been refused when I ask to have a legitimate channel on.

Usually the ‘blessed day’ stuff is when I’m leaving, so I just give a pained look. I’m more used to the religious symbols when it’s not a professional person, am really inclined to withdraw my business. Still thinking it over.

Good Morning, Ruth
It’s nice to see you here. Does it really make you feel squeamish when someone say’s have a blessed day? How about keep the faith? I use those two phrases here from time to time, but I never wanted to offend anyone. Now, I’m wondering if I have.
At the gym I used to work at, there was a tiny American Flag, the kind on a wooden stick. One time I noticed that there was a little sign next to it asking people not to touch it or remove it. I finally asked one of the other staff members what was up with that and she told me it was the flag she was given the day she became a citizen. She’s from Iraq. Some days it kind of bugged me that she had it at work, thinking maybe she could just enjoy it at home, but other days I just looked past it. I think it depended on what kind of a mood I was in already.
There’s a church that I drive by from time to time and they have a large sign on the lawn that says The wages of sin is Death. It used to kind of creep me out, but I figure it’s their lawn and we’re all going to die some day anyway. Now, I just shrug when I drive by. Like, whatever.

There is an assistant manager at the HEB I frequent who always wears the most enormous, garish crosses around her neck. She’s very pleasant and friendly, even for an Itchy Butt employee but your eye can’t help but be drawn to them. I mean, you could slay a vampire with some of them, just by beating it over the head. Apart from the questionable tastefulness of wearing a representation of an ancient torture/execution device, what this lady wears can be seen from the Moon. Central Texas is full of overt religious symbols but they are usually in the form of mega churches on the side of the highway but she looks like she’d like to rival those.

BTW. Are you in the Lubbock area by any chance?

I am also uncomfortable when church association is “part of the business”. It always makes me wonder if my lack of association affects the business’ treatment of me. Personally, I avoid businesses that make their religious affiliation part of their advertising. To be honest, I’m using generic terms but what I really mean is when I see the Christian fish symbol as part of an advertisement I will go *anywhere* else.

It seems to me that the Dominionist Movement would like nothing better than to have all businesses be Christian, and therefore to have all of the money…and therefore all of the power.

Here is a bizarre thought (and I’m sure I’ll get slammed for it): What if “the mark of the beast” is the fish?

It would depend on the context, I suppose, and I don’t recall your ever saying something that made me feel pressured. I guess that was my reaction, that symbols of religion were being pushed on me in a business context. As to churches with their own messages, I just am reminded that I don’t want to go in there, thanks.

Here’s another thought. I don’t necessarily associate “blessings” with the Christian faith. I thought all religions use that term. Am I wrong?

Ishtar(Easter) is one of the multitude of Abomination perpetrated on the Christian Church by the Whore in Rome.

I personaly find that EVERYONE is in someway expressing their belief’s, and try to seek the intent of the heart, rather than be distracted by the trappings they clothe themselves in.

Not that far north, I’m near Lake Texoma. There just have always been some standards of dress that I really don’t pay much attention, such as droopy trousers and short skirts, that I feel very much like this is demanding attention in a way I don’t like.

Parable of the Pharisee, applies. I ask people about that when their “faith” is too forward.

Expressions of faith when overused will loose their impact. They will become part of the speech. For example, saying “bless you” after a sneeze.

For most of my life, I’ve had a live and let live attitude. Though I lost religion very early on, I’ve tried to avoid judging people by or for their faith, no matter how I personally feel about it. Since the religious right in this country has become what it is however, I have changed my opinion. I still have no problem with the honestly faithful and those who still believe in Jesus’ teachings and so forth but the old testament, wrath of god fundies and family values posers would be doing us all a favor by being raptured up sooner rather than later. I’ve never tried to impose my belief structures on anyone else. The same can’t be said about the reverse.

Maybe a sizzling fish? It’s not the appeal I would expect a business to exhibit, indeed, what message does that send to customers?

To which Whore in Rome are you referring? I don’t recall a female emperor in Rome.

That’s something I don’t really know, but do associate ‘blessed’ with Christian.

Ah! Denison area. I used to go there to the Faire every year. It was better than the Ren-Faire in Plantersville. Not bigger just much less law enforcement getting into your business. I think it was called “Hawkwood Faire” but the person who owned it had one of those sub prime mortgages…

We’ve got some of that down here too, along with campaign signs planted prominently on business property. My old dentist was going to vote for Bush? Get a new dentist post haste… The religious stuff just gives me the heebie jeebies. As far as I’m concerned (as an Episcopalian and Lay Eucharistic Minister and choir member) it has absolutely no place in the business realm. I don’t patronize businesses that want to proselytize me before I set foot inside. God only knows what I’d find inside.

You’re right, I probably wouldn’t have been put off by something such as a simple cross in former times, that hadn’t grown into a perversion of the simple goodness it used to represent to me. By changing the character of religion, the right has made an impression on me, for sure.

Very interesting topic for PUAC, Ruth. As an employee (for 3 more weeks until I retire!) of a Catholic university, I am pretty much surrounded by religious symbols and statements, and I guess I just accept them as a part of the environment. An insurance agent with whom I did business recently has some sort of religious picture on his conference room wall, but I ignored it.

Actually here in my corner of NW Indiana there are a LOT of churches and a LOT of religious symbols and statements. And a generous portion of right-wing fundies.

That’s something I don’t really know, but do associate ‘blessed’ with Christian.

I do too. Again, I wouldn’t have any problems with it if so many of the people using it really didn’t mean it or would just as soon condemn me to the infernal regions if they knew some more about me.

I worked in an office where the Muslim guys would wash their feet in the men’s bathroom sink, several times a day. I must say this was disconcerting.

Business loans are failing at a huge rate now, as consumers evaporate, it might not have been sub-prime.

Exactly! Simple faith has been transformed from being helpful, charitable and living a good life into a cudgel with which to beat other people over the head. Not enough Christians in my opinion, have declaimed such hijacking of their faith. Some have and very vocally but for the most part they are like the Senate: Still polite and friendly toward their peers no matter how insane or destructive their behavior becomes.

Another thought…many in the comments have said (paraphrasing), “I just went elsewhere.” I wonder if we shouldn’t let these people know WHY we’re taking our patronage elsewhere? Just like the Target kerfluffle, it doesn’t have as much effect if we simply stop shopping at Target without writing to the CEO and telling him WHY we aren’t returning.

I just googled a bit and found “blessings” referred to in the Jewish faith, Buddhism, Shintoism, American Indian religion and Islam. For what that’s worth.

I wasn’t there, but based on your description, I’d say that it’s possible that a person who is wearing all black and a giant cross might not be a Christian. She might have been a heavy metal fan or a goth.

No, the last year was in 2001 and the owner himself was lamenting his “balloon payment” that he had no chance of making.

Good morning all.

A fabulous sleep last night as temp dropped to nearly 60.

Welcome to PUAC, Ruth. My heart goes out to you living in a religionist region. blessedly (heh) I live in an area that has very little religiosity.

The difference between a clerk with dreadlocks, tats, or some other personal appearance matter that you don’t like and a clerk wearing overt religious symbols, is that the former are not subtly or otherwise trying to convert you, nor do they, as a matter of belief, think you are a lesser human because you don’t share their beliefs or tastes, whereas the religionists generally share the notion of that you are a lesser person and would like to convert you. Which is pretty objectionable.

You know me. I’d have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.

Political signs are an absolute checkoff, I don’t patronize any business that makes it obvious that my funds are going to support a cause/candidate I wouldn’t want in public office. Of course, I’m a bit impressed favorably if their political leanings are progressive, and displayed, but that’s almost unheard of out here.

I understand, if the organization is a church affiliated one. After all, you would know walking in the door that that’s where your business was going.

Yikes! I hope they supplied you with handiwipes on the side?

That was my thought also. I rarely see a religious zealot (except, of course, for clergy) dressed in all black and wearing a giant cross.

That crossed my mind, but I know several Goths, and am more used to black makeup and unconventional hairstyle to go along with the other, and this was nothing of that sort.

Political signs are an absolute checkoff, I don’t patronize any business that makes it obvious that my funds are going to support a cause/candidate I wouldn’t want in public office.

I’m the same way but I’ve also been known to walk out of a business that had FAUX “News” on in the waiting room. Several times. And yes, I DO tell them why I’m leaving.

Well, you’re not going to see it on the tv or in any other msm, but, as I am interested in how politics and religion play together, I often read articles on the internet where the fundies are called out by people of faith. I think it’s a matter of we see what we’re looking for. Like, if you just bought a yellow car, suddenly you notice them everywhere.
I’m not happy at all with with the Christian Right has done in politics, but I’m also not going to be a sheep and condemn anyone simply because they call themselves a Christian. And, I’m not saying you personally do that. But, it seems there are many who do.

Yeah, it’s usually pretty easy to sort the Goths from a crowd. But perhaps her work didn’t allow Gothy makeup and weird hair and she was being as Goth as she could with getting fired?

The sort that I am afraid is about to pull out a flamethrower and send me to her version of Jesus is usually able to let me know in a very short time that I don’t want to be there, ever. I think that this is sanctioned by the business makes me most uncomfortable, it’s not my intention to use my spending to push any religion on anyone, or the area.

When my son was doing his college aps & visits, only on the West Coast, some friends drove us around. We drove on the Pepperdine campus, which has a gigantic concrete cross at the entrance. I immediately made a comment that was not the college for my son (he did not demur). Friends asked why. In trying not to offend (not offending friends is different from not offending a store clerk), I merely replied something neutral about not liking religion. Asked why, I said: Something in the atmosphere. They said: Like what, like God? I felt like retorting: No, like hypocrisy. But in that case, kept my mouth shut and they dropped the topic.

G’day to you, Ruth! I definately am not offended by ‘have a blessed day’ and would be more demoralized by an overabundance of makeup than someone flashing a cross at a work station (a white collar is another thing).

Yesterday I did give my piece of mind RE: a segment about gay marriage and a ridiculously fundamental Baptist preacher guest of one of my favorite local talk show hosts.

Given that WILM is a Clear Channel station, but the AM weekly host, John Watson, is no conservative. However, as a friend wrote to my fb page after the show: “Watson is frustrating. That baptist clown is getting a free ride on the show. His god is the only god and his interpretations are final. Your perseverance is inspiring though!”

Rev, Toby of the Lighthouse Babtist Church had quite a screed going by the time I put in my two cents. In answer to his “Founding Fathers” crap, I started by reading off of native American web sites about the historic treatment of gays as ‘Two Feathers’ and how English and French fur traders were writing in the 1600′s about the commonality of native men dressed in woman’s clothing but especially how the the Two Feathers were esteemed as gifted and, well, blessed. Shaman even. The real American foundation?

I also asked Rev. Toby what he thought of the Episcopal Church inviting woman and gays into leadership. Were they evil incarnate too? He ripped through some bible verses about men-only – women can’t lead crap to which I retorted that that philosophy seemed much more damaging to young girls than anything two mommys or two daddys could ever impart. heh.

No doubt you noticed, but I answered at #36. Also, incidentally, it was a homespun dress in appearance.

To me wearing of religious themed clothing is akin to proselytizing. Popes, nuns, priests, prayer shawls, crucifixes, stars of david,all of it. Is subliminal advertising for religion.

I think it’s a matter of we see what we’re looking for.

A distinct possibility yet I can’t help but think that I hear Muslims all the time denouncing the terrorism that takes place in the name of their religion and I’m certainly not looking for that either. There are too many people who like me who nevertheless socialize normally with people who would, (and have), denounced me as an abomination. I’m not saying that if you’re not with me, you’re against me. I’m just saying that I can’t square tolerating intolerance.

Pepperdine is a source for right wing ‘experts’ on many of the public service programs around here. I would have had much more to say on why it isn’t an appropriate place for an education.

Good Morning, eCAHN
Just to remind you of something you probably already know, a person does not have to believe in God to be a hypocrite. *g*

Well, well, well…sort of on topic for this thread. Fareed Zakaria is returning the Hubert Humphrey First Amendment Freedoms award and $10K honorarium the ADL gave him 5 years ago, because of their stance on the Cordoba House issue.

His letter to the ADL is here.

Is subliminal advertising for religion

LMAO! Not the lady at the HEB! What she wears could be described in a lot of ways but “subliminal” isn’t one of them.

You remember my sound bite on that: Hypocrisy is not confined to religion or democracy. It’s just heavily concentrated there.

We drove on the Pepperdine campus, which has a gigantic concrete cross at the entrance. I immediately made a comment that was not the college for my son
*

yup!

Another point I harped on with Rev. Toby was his use of God in the masculine. I said that it offended me because I do not ascribe a gender to my god. That sort of confused everyone.

I can’t square tolerating intolerance.
Now, see, that quite a conundrum, isn’t it? We’re either tolerant of other’s differences, or we’re not. My opinion.

It’s astonishing to me that anyone can justify excluding his mother, wife, sisters and the rest of us from any leadership role because of the biblical cannon. Incidentally, books written by women were excluded from our present day bible because of a committee, as I understand… Elaine Pagels has written good stuff on that.

Yup, I did see your reply. A homespun dress? I would equate that more with Amish, who are plentiful in my neck of the woods too, but the women don’t seem to wear black, although the men do. But pretty obviously NOT goth. My bad.

a person does not have to believe in God to be a hypocrite. *g*

Indeed! Or any particular flavor of god. Religion isn’t the problem, (or cause), it’s the excuse. I have a bumper sticker on my car that says “Stop using Jesus as an excuse to be a bigoted, intolerant asshole”. I’ve gotten a lot of comments on that and it’s a great tool for sorting the honestly faithful from the fundie assholes.

Oh, I don’t know. I see a lot of it here, too.

I’m not sure that just subliminal is how I view wearing a cross in a business situation.

sort of on topic for this thread. Fareed Zakaria is returning the Hubert Humphrey First Amendment Freedoms award
*

I saw that at memeorandum this morning. There was also a story linked through from a Brit site about a CO-OP that refused to serve a man because he was in uniform but I didn’t read it.

Nice. I would love to see more declining of awards from dubious sources.

I don’t deny it. One of my longest lasting philosophical questions is “Is one a bigot if he or she is prejudiced against bigots?”

The Council of Nicea. The threw out a lot of good stuff and combined some other stuff to come up with just four Gospels. I’m reading a very interesting book called When God Was A Women. Written by a women named Merlin Stone. Theologians and biblical scholars have been writing about this stuff for a long time.

To be more revealing, I was dumbfounded that this lesbian couple, who were the SCOTUS test case for the non-birth mother adopting the birth mother’s daughter, (a male relative of the non-birth mother was the sperm donor, so she was genetically related) would even think about setting foot on the Pepperdine campus, so I was completely unprepared to counter their suggestion in any intelligent way. Knocked my socks off and made my mind go blank.

The fact that you ask yourself that question tells me you’re headed in the right direction. From my pov, anyway.

Which is a reason I brought it up here. I think we’re pretty self-disciplining here, and wonder how it affects this crew of pups when they are confronted with something that’s meant to influence them, and in this instance in a somewhat unsavory way – in present practice of religion.

Incidentally, books written by women were excluded from our present day bible because of a committee, as I understand…

*

The ever amended bible – another point I made to the Rev. — the bible was god’s word written by the hands of men and therefore as imperfect as any of us. But he was stuck on sinners and sinning and a real waste of time.

This is why I only comment on FDL every couple hundred years.

Pepperdine being actually an educational institution, no matter how misguided, may have been a factor there. I guess there are perfectly decent teachers there, but since I’m most familiar with Dean Ken Starr (now at Baylor) I have no patience with it.

It’s been my experience that most of the overt religious symbols are worn or displayed by people who A) Use their faith as a cudgel upon others or B) Are not entirely secure in their own faith. My mom was a devout Catholic and she never wore or displayed overt religious symbols. In times of trial, you might see her in a corner, reading a book while absent mindedly doing a rosary but that was it.

I say most, not all.

Maybe you took ‘self-disciplining’ another way than I intended.
:-}

Actually Im way more tired of “have a great day.”

What is the this you are referring to? You didn’t hit the reply button, so I can’t tell.

I’ve known several Amish ladies who were uncomfortable wearing the little caps and clunky shoes, too. It seems the symbols that are required of us are a lot less offensive than the ones I see adopted by those I see trying to spread their own beliefs. Christian charity would be nice, though, I’d like to see more of that.

I think you also are correct, eCAHN, that one responds differently to friends than to store clerks, dentists, or insurance agents. A work colleague I interact with a lot is both deeply religious (not Catholic) and deeply right-wing. I think when I first arrived and we discovered each other’s religious beliefs (or in my case, nonbeliefs) we mutually decided not to discuss religion. Politics hasn’t come up.

I bite my electronic tongue and refrain from posting anything in response to her FB posts (she doesn’t usually post overtly religious or political stuff, but sometimes…). If a commenter posts something clearly incorrect, I usually rummage in Google to find a counter from a “neutral” mainstream source and not a blog or an overtly liberal source.

Snort. You crack me up. I feel the same way. How ya doin’, Bev?

I bet not a lot of people ask you ‘how’s it hanging?’ then.

I’ve said this before, I think we are usually less offended by people we know. Once you are fond of someone, you can handle a bad mood now and then. We seem to judge people we don’t know more harshly.

All religions make me uncomfortable; as an Atheist I see them as forms of insanity, and as a secular humanist I see most of them as oppressive, backward institutions fighting against my (and everyone else’s) rights. So, yeah, I try not to frequent businesses that push religion as a sideline, and if anyone actually tried to push religion on me personally I’d find my way to the door.

On the other hand, it’s easy to react more strongly to some religions than others, based on politics and personal experience. If I see a buddha in a chinese restaurant it’s not going to make me feel unease like a big cross would, because, quite frankly, there aren’t a lot of Buddhist theocrats working here in the US.

Yep, I think I didn’t realize how much I may not be welcome here….sigh.

BINGO! So am I.

Now the last cup of tea is gone and I must go get started on my Saturday to-do list, much as I’ve enjoyed sitting “in the woods” on my screened porch and chatting with you all.

Have a blessed day. BBL.

*tee hee*

So, Ruth, what do you mean by self-disciplining, anyway? I’m a little confused, but would love to better understand people here.

I really view it to each his/her own; much prefer a cross to “drooped” britches.

When we have conversations here, it always is quite easy for me to say and hear things that disagree or contradict, without being offensive or offended.

Sigh back attcha. But, at least there is a dialogue going these days. When I first started visiting the Lake, one did not mention God without getting sliced to pieces.

There’s a book, title something like: You Only Have 3 Seconds. As I recall, it’s a how to book about interviews (not worth looking it up to make the point). The message is that strangers will judge you pretty quickly, and your appearance and demeanor will instantly set the stage for how the other person thinks of you. Fair or unfair, it’s one of the many things humans do to cope with complex busy lives. So if you choose to come across as overtly religious, expect the reactions, favorable & unfavorable, that provokes.

Wish there were more pups like you, Ruth.

Yep, I think I didn’t realize how much I may not be welcome here….sigh.

I’m sorry you feel that way. For my own part, I like and respect you.

Do I come across as overtly religious, do you think?

Not in the slightest.

I’m guilty of using that one, perhaps too much. I try to just make it “later” now. No matter what I use, somebody is going to be offended by it or grow weary of it. That’s just the nature of the beast.

It is, but a business situation is more a ‘sales’ approach. I like what eCAHN says at #84 about the reaction you’re choosing to make.

Thanks. Appreciated, and same back atcha.

Whew! I try to be a nice person, not always successfully. I think it’s better to show people who you are than to tell them.

I am sure no one feels like you’re not wanted or respected. And that was very much not what I felt like this conversation was about. It’s really about handling overtly religious approaches on a business plan, something I am trying to deal with.

Ah, now we’re getting to the nitty gritty.
There’s a little Spanish evangelical church in town, where someone is always out front with a megaphone preaching something. As I don’t speak Spanish, I don’t know what they are saying, so I just imagine. But, it used to bother me. I use to think, what a bunch of crap. Then one day, as I was driving by, I thought, wow, what if someone was really desperate, like suicidal and something they heard from the minister made them turn around and look for help. What if?

So if you choose to come across as overtly religious, expect the reactions, favorable & unfavorable, that provokes.

Excellent point. yep, like I said, it’s usually the fundie crowd who is overt about it. For me, I’m not “offended” by garish religious displays, people have a right to their space and person and if the want to be a billboard for religion, more power to them. It’s when they invite me to church or start asking my what my beliefs are that I draw the line. I have a sign on my door pointing out that my beliefs are my own and are not open for discussion with strangers. It was necessary as there are a whole lot of evangelical types around who go door to door.

BTW, thanks for introducing me to your BIL. (Think I thanked you before, but if not, feel free to give me 50 lashes with a wet noodle.) I started the book he recommended by Tariq Ramadan. Unfortunately, I find it nearly unreadable, a writing style I refer to as Oxbridgian. I had my fill of that in working with the economists from the London office. I’ll persist for awhile longer, to see if &/or how, Ramadan gets to the point I’m interested in, but it’s a struggle.

Having said that, your BIL’s responses to my emails were gracious & informative and definitely advanced my understanding of Islam.

I’m interested to know how the atmosphere at your local businesses is – and how it affects where you choose to shop.

I live in a suburb of ny city and business here is almost entirely secular except around christmas

Sorry. The nitty gritty I was referring to was not my story, but the comments that deal with how we accept each other, what types of actions offend us and how we need to know how we are perceived by others.

The megaphone thing sounds absolutely obnoxious to me. I’d hate to own a house or have an apartment near that church and have to put up with some evangelical shouting about Jesus day and night, no matter the language the shouting’s in. What-ifs about how somebody, somewhere might get some thing out of it wouldn’t get me back my peace and quiet, which is far less speculative.

Quick drive by. I personally don’t notice that much of it in Austin, but I also keep guidelines for myself to try to not support business that give or are likely to give money to causes I’m not in favor of. Also I’d rather support local businesses and businesses to subscribe to green energy.

On my way to a class in Native Landscaping.

A heads up: Yves Smith now on WJ on cspan.

You did thank me. So no noodles today. He is very much an ivory tower scholar, and it’s sometimes difficult for me to speak with him. So, I’m not surprised by your take on the book he recommended.
When I first met him, I thought Who does he think he is? Well, he is who he is and I learned to take him for that and not be offended or take his attitude personally. Isn’t that what we’re talking about here?

Like many here, I used to follow a live and let live philosphy. But it seems to me that religions have gotten more and more into the election cycle. As a result I have stopped donating to church groups since so many of them have a political message these days that offends me, like “Pray and fast to end abortion” and they don’t mean some abortions they mean all of them. Those signs and others with social messages pop up on lawns every election cycle. Then there is Fox News in restaurants. I don’t know how to respond so I keep quiet and stay away. I offended one store manager by telling him that Fox News was mostly lies and I could no longer tell what was true and what was false.

General on-topic point. I don’t care what the beliefs, religious or political, of the shopowners where I shop are, as long as they are not part of the business transaction. I do try to shop local as a manifestation of using my consumer dollars to advance my own agenda.

It’s a commercial part of town, on a busy street and I don’t think the noise goes too far beyond where he’s standing. But, I hear you.

Agreed. I love church bells off in the distance, though.

one word: integration

Thanks for stopping by. You reminded me, I will not go to WalMart at all, or Domino’s Pizza.

I tend to think of church bells as being like tornado sirens: you might like the idea in concept, but rarely would you want to live next to them.

At least not if you like sleeping in.

You sound like a tough cookie. Are you easy to live with? *g*

I have other reasons to avoid Wal-Mart….and now Target. *sigh*

He did come across as a scholar, which was exactly what I’m looking for but have no entre into, but types, at least in email, in a very readable way. Also seemed to understand why I was interested in the topic, i.e., why a non-Muslim would want to know the state of the way Islamic scholars currently think about their own religion.

Quick read through of the posts so forgive me if I repeat or offend.

My small towns in North Georgia are pretty much as you describe Ruth. I am most perturbed by medical personnel intruding their beliefs and frankly offended by the co mingling of religion with politics. I strive to accept that it is the culture within which fate has decreed I will live out my last years and learn more of what it feels like to be member of a minority. It does bring me to treasure those who share more of my values and habits.

Details make all the difference, yeah. On the other hand, then, I’d hate to be doing business trying to walk down the sidewalk with some guy shouting at me with a megaphone. Sidewalk preaching’s one thing, but what’s with the vocal amplification?

I’ve had fun myself arguing with sidewalk preachers, who tend to be frothingly insane. You can really kill an hour between classes with one of those fire and brimstone whackos who like to set up shop on a college campus.

If you know of any worship that involves early brass gongs, let me know so I will be sure not to locate in the next block.

Did I tell you how my sis met him? A couple of months after 9/11, my Methodist church was looking for someone to come and speak about Ramadan and he was the one they found. My sissy met him and, as they say, the rest is history. :)

jumping in, i have a very negative attitude about public expressions of faith. but i know it’s a free country, and just like i want to kiss my gf du jour on the mouth in public and have that be legal, i grok that public expression about religion is in the same category of essential freedom. but so is my right to be a mouthy atheist if people feel the need to talk to *me*. if someone says that smarmy “blessed be” or “have a blessed day” junk to me, i shoot right back with something like, “no, thanks. i don’t need that kind of intellectual crutch.” i figure people of faith need to be reminded of what some of us think of them as much as i need to be told to conform to belief in unprovable things.

i don’t exactly avoid businesses that advertise a relationship with churches or whatever. that’s just basic american business practice, and again, like i want a business to be loud and proud about an association with Lamda Legal or the local out candidate, i suppose i can tolerate the fact that they also court the religious market. again, it’s a matter of degree. i have no problem with message boards and raffle sales and even salvation army grifters out front, for all i avoid the latter like the plague. but if a business takes out a big ad that says something like “25% off all wrapping paper for Christians this saturday!” i’m going to mark that business in my mind and keep an eye on what the owners are doing, socially and politically. if i find out they’re big donors to xtian fundie candidates, i stop going.

…so this is where everybody is on saturday mornings now. :-)

I may agree so long as they do not wear their politics or religion on their sleeves like with signs and things (Fox New). Some of these people are just plain obnoxious and I find it easier to avoid them.

Actually, I can be more at ease with this environment by feeling like I’m contributing some measure of rational behavior and speech that would otherwise be lacking. And like you, I really treasure the ones that are at least a bit like that, as well.

Heh. Stayed overnight at a small hotel right on the square where the Rouen cathedral is that Monet painted. The bells went off every 15 minutes, and could have been right in the room. I slept through it (don’t know how, but there it is), but my son not so much.

Good on your church. A very progressive approach to post-9/11 environment of fear mongering. How was his presentation? Did it advance understanding?

Good Morning Ruth and Firedogs,

living in Central Texas, we encounter this from time to time in our restaurant. well, the building is made of limestone – said limestone contains fosilized bits and impressions of the ‘first’ texans. . . so, we usually let the proselytizer finish their spiel… and then say, “that’s nice, have you seen our fossils ?

tends to end the conversation right quick :D

…so this is where everybody is on saturday mornings now. :-)

PUAC’s been going on for a long time ‘dyke.
Long time, no see. Welcome. :)

‘that’s just basic american business practice, and again, like i want a business to be loud and proud about an association with Lamda Legal or the local out candidate, i suppose i can tolerate the fact that they also court the religious market.’

in this area, it’s practically impossible to find any outright support for the gay community or women’s procreative freedom of choice, so I guess maybe I’m more put off by the opposite because my progressive leanings are given a pass.

glad you stopped by.

nice to see you here again, it’s been a while !

Righto. Overt displays by businesses of things I don’t support, would not be in keeping with my using my spending in part to advance my own causes.

Going to go start my Saturday. Congrats on the PUAC Ruth. Nice one. And have the best Saturday you can one and all, it’s time for my Airbender cartoon. Out.

Very nice. Ammonites are used in a lot of decorations here, as they’re pretty common.

Indeed. Where we spend our money is the only real power any of us have anymore.

integration indeed, Palli. it’s the scariest word in the english language for fundies, and nowhere to be found in their imagination of the constitution, bible or any other document they revere. i have long argued that progressives make a huge mistake, not paying more attention to rural areas and small towns, and taking the fight to those streets. that’s how the civil rights movement grew in power, and for many of our progressive causes, the only way we’ll make any progress as well.

my mom lives in a small town. it’s totally integrated. they have their issues, and it will be interesting to see if the frothing winger candidates do well this year, given the official messaging of “kill the brown people!” from top down. most of the Latin American population in the area is third or fourth generation. but they don’t vote at quite the same rate as the fundie community, or at least, they haven’t yet. mom lamented to me that there is no strong progressive choice for miles around. greens, real democrats and others shouldn’t allow that to happen as often as it does in rural areas.

I didn’t hear his presentation, but the church is fairly open minded and although they don’t attend services, they do come for some specials things and he is well thought of.

Not that the little peeps’ spending power is in any way determinative. But if it’s all ya got…

Margaret,

I do know what you mean about the crosses – they look like something from the Hernan Cortez Collection – some have even larger ones emblazoned on their handbags – It appears to be the current fad, like capris :D

This place rocks on Saturday morning. And, it’s almost exclusively the nice smart folks. So, I hope you come again. :)

I try to do the same. And I certainly take the opportunities to express the minority values directly through letters to the ed and support of what liberal organizations I can. This as well as socializing as a minority member of my age/status peer groups. The latter has been a rewarding if precarious aspect of my life..

See yaz.

At least the gong would be novel. If they’d let me use the giant padded beater I might even listen to their spiel for a while.

good morning, margaret. i have just had no time to blog, anywhere, including at my own blog. it’s the gardens, on top of the other 3.5 jobs i have. i’m very american like that right now, i’m sure Chimpy would be proud. /angry emoticon/

two of my favorite blogs have succumbed to the perhaps fatal disease that is Echo (commenting system). two of my other favorite blogs are deeply infested by regular troll(s), but the owners seem unwilling to moderate and so many decent readers have stopped commenting. meh, the blogosphere is like a river and is never the same place twice, and all communities change. it’s… scary that i’ve been doing this so long i can almost predict the popularity and evolutionary arc of a blog, having seen it over and over again. i’ve been doing this since the 90s, which seem so frakking long ago at this point sometimes i want to cry.

Yeah, well, like eCAHN said, if they choose to wear and display something like that, they can hardly complain about being perceived as overtly Christian

I won’t knowingly do business with a company or store if I see their public support for political candidates or causes that I can not agree with or if they have a sign, logo or advertising phrase that refers to religion or a reference to a moral social cause that differs strongly from mine. I pulled my considerable trade from a photo developing company when, by accident, I learned the owner had given advice to a district attorney about “supicious” photographs.
It might even be considered unconscious entrapment because I speak political asides often when in public. For example at the gas station I usually say something about the hidden cost of gas and why are their still outlandish profits or at a small business I’ll say “don’t you wish you could have corporate offices off shore like Halliburton”. It serves to help me spend my money wisely and brings political thinking into informal public dialogue.

I don’t subscribe to any superstitions, and wonder why people who do have to proclaim their lack of rationality so overtly. Whom, exactly, are they trying to convince? Themselves, for their own doubts? Their sky daddy, who’ll smite them if they even once fail to show proper obeisance? Me?

Still, the is the US, and we all nominally have the right to express ourselves however we want. It also means we all have the right to avoid people and businesses as we choose. I, for one, refuse to do business with anyone who puts that stupid little fish on her/his business card, billboard, or other advertising.

Well you could give me 1.5 of those jobs….. ;)

May I introduce you to the mods? Mods, meet ChicagoDyke, she’s good folks.

I once went to the Winter Solstice celebration at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in Manhattan. There was a generous usage of big brass gongs, which was spectacular in the context. Goose bumps all over. But sound didn’t reach outside the building.

Second that and not just because of my girl crush on her. Really out this time.

That sounds wonderful. And I would not miss the sleep either.

Gonna get going too. Thank you Ruth for a wonderful discussion. So many nice and smart folks here. Ta!

Thank you everyone, so appreciate your contributions. Phoenix Woman above with grand tomatoes.
(ED: be at the seminal in an hour for Filibustering.)

bye, doll! hope to catch ya in some of the threads this week end
mwaaah!

I hope so too! Take care. That’s politically correct, isn’t it?

Thanks for a thoughtful and provocative topic, Ruth.

karen

My great pleasure. really.

The cathedral is an interesting place, in general. I don’t know a lot about it, so I won’t go on too long. As far as I do know, it was probably located where is is (right of the NW corner of Central Park on 110th St.) originally because there was a lot of space for a spectacular building. Now the neighborhood that has grown up around it is lower middle class if not poor. I think the cathedral does a lot of outreach and crafts very creative programs to attract attendance.

oh, that’s right. i have to heh, be moderate in speech over here. i’ve been warned before; i tend to curse like a sailor even tho i’m a Marine and should have better manners. /naughty/

For example at the gas station I usually say something about the hidden cost of gas and why are their still outlandish profits or at a small business I’ll say “don’t you wish you could have corporate offices off shore like Halliburton”.

i am always overtly political in public, with very rare exceptions. i bitch if fox is on the TV. i bring up prices and inflation and whatever economic news is front page on today’s papers. i make snippy comments about pompous people like street preachers. i flirt with women, not in a yucky way but the friendly, “normal” way that straight people do without thinking twice for having done so. i’m intolerant of people who skirt the edge of abusing children and women in public, or animals. i get in their faces if i can. pretty much, i wear my politics on my sleeve and try in action as well as words to be the progressive i think i am supposed to be. then again, i also love Trouble. :-)

Where I live I encounter a wide variety of personal religious/cultural demonstrations on the street and inside businesses, so it barely registers to me. Being on the other side though, I’ve had Muslim men ask for a private room in our office so they could pray (why did you schedule an appointment with us when you knew you had another obligation?) and Muslim women who’ve refused to be in a room when a man was present. Although it may throw off our scheduling, we accommodate everybody. Mostly. I have had to ask a couple of young men to pull their trousers up because it’s unsanitary for our other patients who may wind up sitting in the same chairs in our waiting area. In our society, it’s become cliche: “So what are you gonna do? Everybody’s different.”

Hey Chidy!

I am furious with the DEMs who voted to knock ACORN out of action. I know all the Delaware ACORN crew very well and they were integral to bringing empowerment to our urban brown population – not just voter registration but that was a big part of it. DE ACORN is now renewed under a new charter but have struggled to find funding for their varied programming. United Way is keeping their tax assistance going. They are working with union orgs for Health Care and Finance reform activism and now Education –the new civil rights frontier.

If being waited on by someone “dressed in all black wearing a large cross” made you so uncomfortable, I would suggest you find another place to shop. Perhaps there is a comparable business where all the employees are atheists and you would feel more comfortable shopping there. Seriously, WTF do you care how someone is dressed who waits on you? Did the person insist that you convert before serving you? YOU are the one with a serious problem IMO.

Small ones, I can see. Large ones are making statements.

There was a woman I worked with – now dead – who was very aggressively Catholic. She wasn’t proselytizing, but she’d get caught up in ‘this movie should be banned’ campaigns. (I think she’d have been one of the Prop8 supporters, too, if she hadn’t died.)

I’m inclined to not do business at places or with people who push their religion or their politics at me. The ones with fish in their ads or on their signs, for example, where it’s basically saying ‘we prefer our group to the rest of you’.

Hey Ruth, it might be important to keep in mind that this could be an expression not of religious fervor but of grief.

In the in Greek Orthodox church, immediate family members of the deceased wear black for 40 days during the official period of mourning after death. Some mourners may wear black longer; my sister-in-law wore black for a year after her spouse’s death, and some widows/widowers may wear black for the rest of their lives by choice.

I guess you like other people displaying their religious views, especially when those views aren’t yours.

BTW, ‘not displaying religion’ is not at all the same as ‘atheism’. A lot of people think that religion is a private matter; the people who think it is and should be public are aggressively Christian (what I think of as Christianist), or aggressively atheist and insulting everyone who isn’t.

Shortly after W was appointed president by the Supreme Court I was buying new eyeglasses in a conservative part of Florida. The optometrist was a chatty east Indian, who asked me how I spent my time.

When I told him I did a lot of volunteer work for the Democratic Party, his eyes widened, and he did a double-take, as though he had never seen a Democrat before. He recovered himself and said, “I suppose you are not happy about the outcome of the election.”

“It is a tragedy for our country,” I replied.

Another double-take. “Well, I wouldn’t exactly call it a tragedy,” he said.

I answered, “You’ll see.”

Not a religious discussion, but thought you might be interested.

I grew up in the SF Bay Area, and this was a non-issue. Then in 1990 we moved to the central valley for several years, where The New Religious Right had taken hold like gangbusters. While this was always God’n'guns territory, I’m told the pushiness was new. I was really shocked that no matter where I went, even in my workplace, people were wanting to drag me to their churches. I thought WTF are these people, Moonies? It was completely outside my experience to discuss one’s faith with strangers. I quickly learned the answer to “Do you have a church home?” is Yes, even before I started attending the local fellowship.

There were lots of fishies and crosses in advertisements and I made it a point to avoid those businesses; once I overheard a shopkeeper talking to a friend who’d stopped in about how God wanted xtians to ‘save’ every last person on earth and I got out quick. What really bothered me then and since is how patronizing it all is, and how eager some people are to give over their autonomy.

A friend invited me to a non-denominational retreat last week, and I popped in for part of a day (luckily missing organized activities). Toward the end of lunch, there was an announcement that one of the families was hitting the long road for home, and we should wish blessings for their safety. The room burst into song, “God’s blessings on you” sung to the tune of Happy Birthday, and including praise-type arm waving. This was a room full of GROWNUPS. I can’t tell you how creeped out I was, and thankful that I made it back to more secular civilization.

FWIW, hubby is Christian but doesn’t attend church, mainly because it’s hard to find one these days that isn’t aggressive, and without credo requirements.

Heh. I’m currently in the Santa Cruz, CA, area, and my next door neighbor is from Oklahoma. We were talking about the current state of affairs here, and he was surprised, yet interested in the details, that I would lay it at the feet of Saint Ronnie. Probably not a convert (yet) but he at least has a different view to consider.

A contrary view: the generation that shocked its elders, deliberately, with provocative clothing and long hair on guys has no standing to criticize how others dress themselves.

What are we saying, we want freedom for ourselves, but not for anyone who has religious beliefs? Who cares what people wear? Let folks put on the clothing and accessories that keep them warm and make them happy.

A person wearing a religious object is not “out to convert me” any more than a person wearing pearls is out to force me into the nearest country club.

Hubby used to have a business next to one of those storefront, bring me your addicts, etc., churches, and they were constantly having carwashes. The incessant screams of “CAR WASH!” got old really fast. Then when we complained, the leadership would tell them to keep it down, but some seemed to think we were anti-Jesus or something and would move closer to our entrance.

We finally had to threaten them with a complaint to the city – these were held not only every weekend, but often during the week, since it was apparently part of their ‘job training’ program.

Heh – “blessed be” is not exactly an xtian greeting ;-)

My Wiccan sister who works retail has a memorial art tattoo to her daughter (who died for lack of insurance), with a ‘Blessed Be’ caption. Says she gets a lot of “Yeah, blessed be the lord!” feedback, and she just smiles…

Thanks, Rayne, that is a consideration.

Thanks for all your comments. I should have made one aspect of ‘dressing for business’ more of a part of the post.

Most jobs have a particular dress associated with them, and of course, if your job is about taking care of a stable or an office, or any functional job that doesn’t involve meeting the public, anything that’s okay with the general functions of it are fine. Meeting the public, however, involves representation of your firm. When the person doing my business includes religious paraphernalia, indeed, I do not continue to do business there because I don’t wish my business, and my money, to support a religion-oriented approach to my business affairs.

i am well aware of that. i include wiccan superstition along with the xtian kind, when i talk about “bunk.”

i do however, apply a great deal of difference in how i think of and treat wiccans in a social and political sense. they do not insult me nearly as often, nor do i find the core of their beliefs as offensive, as american fundies. if you gave me a choice of “50% of the country atheist, and 50% fundie; or 25% of the country atheist, and 75% of country wiccan,” i’d choose the latter. wiccans are on the right track, they just don’t know ancient history and archaeology like i do (phd). which is fine, everyone deserves to have fun and believe in silly things if they want. i just don’t. so technically, i’m as disinterested in hearing “blessed be” from someone as i am “god bless you.” really, just keep the ‘blessings’ to yourself, i don’t need them. k?

I don’t care what other people’s religious views are or how they display them. It’s none of my business and none of YOURS. Unless someone is trying to convert me to whatever, why would I care? Particularly, why in the world would anyone except the biggest busybody nanny stater care how someone who waits on them dresses? If it is so offensive to you, never go back there. You’re free to shop elsewhere if you don’t like what people dress like who work for a business. I’m not into trying to stamp out everyone’s beliefs that are not the same as mine, which seems to be your purpose as well as many people on this thread. Last I looked we still have freedom of religion in this country, NOT freedom FROM religion and unless we are breaking some local law (like the no shirt-no shoes laws,) we’re free to dress as we please too.

Good idea – shop somewhere else if your sensibilities are offended.

Thank you for telling me how to run my life. Not.
You might want to get that log out of your eye before you do it again; not everyone will take it in a polite way. (On a bad day, I’d be sending you flaming comments, and hoping not to get edited by the Lurking Mods.)

Also, it’s clear to me that you have never lived in an area where most people don’t share your views, or you’d have noticed the pushiness that some people have about religion, whether it’s their flavor of ‘Christian’ or not. (Atheists can be as offensive as the ‘Christians’.)

When the person doing my business includes religious paraphernalia, indeed, I do not continue to do business there

Does this extend to refusing to do business where they hire devout Muslim women who choose to wear the head scarf?

I hope we can differentiate between a simple display, through clothing, of one’s identity and beliefs, versus an active attempt to push one to believe something against their will.

What difference is there? None. Religious dress started as a cheap way to try to spread the word. It’s not a sign of devotion to anything but making the Church, defined as you wish, bigger. It has no place in a public sphere.

I’m a Reverend, for example, and I’d never wear a religious symbol to a public place. It’s nobody else’s business, and not my place, to bother them with my religion!

Actually, I would be less likely to react, especially if it were one among others not displaying muslim headdress, as that is part of the religious practice their particular religion requires, while wearing standard christian decorations isn’t.

Thanks, when I worked for a Methodist minister it was also part of his practice to do what would make others comfortable, never tried to make a point of his church affiliation.