Welcome author Mark Sumner, Contributing Editor DailyKos (devilstower), and Host JD Stemwedel, Adventures in Ethics and Science.
[As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
In The Evolution of Everything: How Selection Shapes Culture, Commerce, and Nature, Mark Sumner prefaces his exploration of Darwin’s theory of evolution – and of the power of selection to explain phenomena as diverse as the economic downturn, the “success” of patent medicines that don’t do much to cure what ails you, and the shape of the new TV season – with the reminder that what you think you know could well be wrong. Sumner argues that the set of erroneous beliefs to which most of us cling includes our sense of what Darwin’s own Darwinism actually asserts.
The first order of business in The Evolution of Everything, then, is a clear retracing of the central ideas of Darwin’s theory of the evolution of life forms over generations driven by the force of natural selection, as well as a lively examination of the path of Charles Darwin’s life and work as he formulated his theory, and of the historical context in which he was living and working. Indeed, Sumner pulls back and gives us glimpses of other figures – naturalists, geologists, economists – whose theories and findings figured in Darwin’s thinking. More importantly, Sumner challenges what we think we know about how resistant the public of Darwin’s day was to the idea of evolution, or how attached to Biblical literalism and Creationism.
Here, I should note that, far from being ponderous, Sumner’s exploration of the relevant history (including a great deal of significant work in biology that came after Darwin and that influences our modern understanding of evolutionary processes) reads like a beach book. I’m halfway tempted to assign The Evolution of Everything to my undergraduates to persuade them that what they think they know about assigned reading is wrong.
How have we come to have such a false impression of the reception of Darwin’s work in his own age, and of the concerns that actually drove resistance to it? How, for that matter, have we come to have such a false impression of what Darwin actually claimed, and of the broader implications of his theory? As Sumner describes, it didn’t help that writers like Herbert Spencer appropriated Darwinian clothing for preexisting commitments to a social order in which the intelligent and the rich assumed their natural place at the top, or that Darwin’s cousin Francis Galton used Darwin’s idea of the mechanism of selection (and his own mathematical brilliance) to advocate for eugenics. But the muddled public understanding of Darwinian evolution runs deeper than what we can lay at the feet of a handful of major figures who appropriated Darwin’s name and theory to advance their own ideas. Rather, Sumner identifies our basic human resistance to ideas that don’t fit comfortably with our sense of how things ought to be. On the other hand, ideas that do fit our worldview stick easily and end up being very difficult to dislodge from our heads even in the face of evidence that undermines them.
In other words, as the physical environment exerts selection pressure on organism that influences which will survive long enough to pass on heritable traits to progeny, there are forces of selection that act upon the ideas in our heads. Such forces of selection played a role in how Darwin’s theory was received by his contemporaries, and they play a role in current reactions to Darwin.
Sumner mounts a compelling excavation of Darwin’s startlingly simple mechanism for evolution from all the extraneous ideas that have become attached to it. He explores the power of this mechanism to make sense of extinctions of big dinosaurs and big financial institutions, of the adaptive value of an impressive appearance in peacock and patent medicines, of the success in environments with limited resources of island dwarfs and Mad Men. Darwinism, as Sumner describes it, is not a philosophy of life but an explanatory pattern that can serve as a valuable tool in domains some remove from the finches, barnacles, and pigeons Darwin studied.
In the undercurrent of this discussion, we are faced with some important questions. What should we make of our tendency to confuse adaptive success with merit (rather than recognizing that such success usually depends on getting lucky with one’s environment)? Where do we draw the line between nature and culture (and does it even make sense to separate ourselves and our activities from nature in this way)? How do we reconcile our commitment to the idea that the natural order favors the “right” winners with our anxiety that the “wrong” winners will get the upper hand? And what’s adaptive advantage of having our preexisting (and unconscious) biases select for some clearly wrong beliefs while selecting against some well-supported and frankly useful ideas?
In other words, in unpacking Darwin’s ideas and offering ideas for how we can use them, Sumner is also opening up a larger discussion about the forces, external and internal, that may drive our ability to succeed as our physical, economic, social, and political environments change.



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Mark, Welcome to the Lake.
Janet, Welcome back, and thanks for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Good afternoon Mark and Janet and welcome to FDL this afternoon.
Mark, I have not had an opportunity to read your book so forgive me for the questions as I assume you do answer it in the book but what are the most common ways people misconstrue Darwin (besides the use to justify “social Darwinism” that is)?
Thanks for having me back.
A question to Mark to kick things off: What do you think is the main source of resistance to the idea of evolution by natural selection? Is it an ignorance of the details of the mechanism Darwin proposed? Rejection of some of the other ideas that have been sold to us as inescapable consequences of this mechanism? Something else?
Thanks for the wonderful writeup. I’m happy to be here.
It’s been way too long since I posted anything around this place, though I still read FDL pretty much every day.
What makes people antsy about Darwin’s great idea is the same factor that made them cringe over Copernicus’ great idea — it removes us from the center of things. The Copernican model revealed that we are not the focus of the universe spatially. Three hundred years later, James Hutton showed that the world was a lot older than 6,000 years and that mankind’s history was only the tiniest fraction of Earth’s long story. So by the start of the 19th century, people were booted from the middle of space and time. Then Darwin and Wallace showed that natural selection was all that was needed to explain the vast diversity of life. Worst of all, man could be explained by this idea as well as any other creature. There had been models of evolution before Darwin that showed life as a “ladder,” where each step leads to something more closely aligned to humanity and people claim the top rung. Darwin understood — understood from the beginning — that the implication of natural selection was not a ladder of progress, but a branching bush of diversity. In that bush, mankind occupies one twig, no “better” or “worse” than any other. That’s a hard thing for some people to accept.
(Also, let me apologize for doing my posting duties today with one hand — I burned the other pickling some cucumbers, which does not bode well for my survival should the environment shift to one in which putting up pickles is an essential adaptive trait.)
For all our leaps and bounds we’ve made in our evolution, the fact is we’re just talking animals. Narrow minded, short-sighted, territorial, and ruthless animals.
With some exceptions, granted.
Related to that discomfort with the history of the natural world not being all about us, as it were:
What should we make of the tendency to confuse adaptive success with merit in some larger sense? And what should we make of the conflict between the idea that God (or nature) favors our enterprises (which you’d think would mean the winners will be as they should be) and the impulse to make sure the right side wins (whether through eugenics programs or economic bail-outs)? (This latter tension also turns up, I think, in Darwin’s *The Descent of Man*)
The most common mistake is that people view evolution as a process with a goal in mind — us. They’re still drawing that “ladder of progress.” This is reinforced by ideas like “the missing link” that still pop up in almost every news report about discoveries of hominid remains and by many presentations of relationships that still place man in a prominent spot (often on top).
Natural selection is not random, but it is directionless. There’s no goal, no guarantee, not even any repeatability. If you rolled back the tape and tried it again, even with no major changes in external factors, it’s likely you’d end up with a whole different cast of creatures.
It’s tantalizing to be told that a visitor is unpacking a delicious-looking suitcase; it would be intriguing if you also described what lays inside, the Darwiniana distinguished from the tissue paper and dustbunnies that cling to it.
That is so perfectly and reasonably said, Mark.
Why it is not understood as liberation, is beyond imagination.
Thank you, Mark, and Janet as well, for being here, today.
(As well, for all the other things you both do and have done.)
A pleasure, indeed, to meet you both.
DW
The idea that the winner deserves to win is extremely attractive not just to people generally, but especially to Americans. It’s intrinsic to our national mythology. Sure, we sometimes get reminders that the world is not a level playing field (often from people comfortably placed in a nice area of that field), but that doesn’t mean we don’t generally assume that success is earned. People want to believe that the first across the finish line got there through talent and determination. But the evolutionary “arena” is one full of surprise obstacles and shifting rules. It’s as if we staged a hundred meter dash through a minefield — finishing first might not mean you were really the fastest runner, just the fastest in that situation. That’s all that “fitness” means in evolutionary terms. Even a second race with the same challenges might yield a different result. When we take actions like a “bailout,” we’re placing the mines ourselves. We’re the ones disrupting the system. That doesn’t make what we’re doing bad — just different — but we need to understand that the effects of our actions are likely to extend beyond the immediate object of our dollars.
The directionless nature of natural selection is an interesting point to highlight, given that one of the big points I think you make in the book is that explanations in terms of selective pressures can shed a lot of light on things like what car models will succeed with consumers, or what television series will succeed with audiences (and the network execs who have to sign off on them).
In those situations, the selective force isn’t “directionless” in quite the same way, is it? And is this the kind of parallel that might end up confusing people about the nature of biological evolution?
Or, is the “invisible hand” operating as a law of nature analogous to natural selection? (Sometimes is feels to me like the invisible hand is putting a thumb on the scale…)
In that respect, the branching and the human position as one twig on the branch pretty well correlates to Chaos Theory or more to the point Deterministic Chaos.
Is it fair to say that the variation produced by nature is random, but that nature selects, that is, individuals and species thrive relative to their competitors owing to traits they are born with and which give them an advantage, often modest, in adapting to their immediate, local environment, a result which then shapes the raw material on which later “natural selection” works?
The latter observation seems important in refuting claims by ID/creationist proponents who argue that complex features could not arise by way of natural selection. The point being that nature doesn’t start from scratch at each step, but works with what has survived through countless earlier generations.
Yes. What is often overlooked in lay reading of Darwin is the prime of the importance nature of the environment at a particular point in time. ie specialization is useful for one environment. Adaptation to changing environments in the whole enables survival.
The invisible hand operating in the markets is creating sharks. If you have an environment that only supports sharks that’s what you get. :-)
Well, I can see that I am going to enjoy this salon quite thoroughly, Mark.
Your wavelengths dance well with mine.
“We” determine our own “games”, write the rules, and determine what “matters”.
Thus, the nature of “our” time, really is up to us, collectively.
Time … is all human beings ever really get to spend, so we might as well spend as wisely and well as we may.
DW
I’d say this is right, with heavy stress on the immediate, local environment (and with the caveat that that environment is bound to change, sometimes in unpredictable ways).
A point Mark makes nicely in the book is that adapting is hardly ever a matter of changing quickly in response to an environmental change. The critters (or cars, or businesses, etc.) that do best in the face of an environmental change almost always are the ones that *already had* some of the traits that are well-suited to the new place the environment lands.
This might be useful to keep in mind as we put off changing our energy policy, for example.
Important points, nuances often lost in MSM discussions. Anthropomorphizing survival by adding a layer of moral weight – he “deserved” to win – seems to obscure the biological process.
Attempts to apply Darwinian concepts to human behavior often seem to count the obvius, speed, endurance, but censor such things as deception, cheating, stealing, and rigging the ref. Those frequently lead to winning, but generally lack the positive moral force ascribed to speed and endurance.
Selective pressure has a direction… at the moment the selection is being applied. It just doesn’t imply any preferred long-term trend (at least in systems complicated enough for selection to be worth studying). So the situations that drove the rise of SUVs starting in the 1980s, can turn around and squeeze them out just as quickly. Hummer can soar and crash in a couple of decades.
But, just as with natural selection, those goods don’t vanish from the stage without a trace. You get effects on the environment, on the companies, and on subsequent vehicles related to changes introduced by earlier pressure.
Look at all the “CUVs” out there now — the downsized descendants of SUVs running for cover.
Unfortunately, taking that tack can place one in the category of climate change denier!
Possibly related:
When we’re thinking about natural selection, where do you see people wanting to draw the line in terms of what’s part of nature and what isn’t? Where do you think we *should* draw that line? (Does it even make sense to try to draw it — i.e., is it all nature?)
I think this comes into play especially when people talk about what’s suited for an environment, but act as if the environment is just all the land masses and weather systems and critters who aren’t human. All the ways that humans contribute somehow fall off the balance sheet. (Maybe this is less true now as the public learns more about global warming, crises for populations of honeybees and frogs and bats, etc. But I think the tendency is still there.)
It’s very hard for people to get past the idea that there’s something moral in survival. That’s not surprising, since we’re at the end of a long chain of survivors. We are also the product of a process that drives us to survive and pass along those genes, so it would be odd if we automatically assumed that “losing” in either a race or the race to survive had intrinsic worth.
Is evolutionary change being perverted/distorted/changed by money – the concentration of wealth? We little people seem not to matter as the masters of the universe decide that we need to burn all the earths’ fossil fuels as quickly as possible (for their financial benefit).
The real cost, of course is an uninhabitable planet.
My favorite description of 19th and early 20th century Social Darwinism is that it is neither social nor Darwinian, but a deceptive argument bent on excusing – obtaining social consent to use and profit from – ruthless, brutal selfishness. It seems a timely topic; Rockefeller and Carnegie are gone, but the misuse of Darwinism continues, outright in the case of Fox Noise, slightly veiled in the case of Pete Peterson.
In the book I argue that there is no line. We’re a part of nature and so are all the things we make. Our economic system, for example, may be complex, but just because it’s not encoded in our genes doesn’t make it any more “unnatural” than a bird’s nest or a whale’s song. However, for practical purposes, I think it’s very important that we do make distinctions between behavior that is essentially benign and behavior that has a long-term impact on the larger environment. For example, I wouldn’t want anyone describing the oil disaster in the Gulf as a “natural event.” There’s a line between things we can control and those we can’t. We just need to be careful when drawing that line that it’s not a line between “us people” and “them animals.” It may be a semantic difference, but it’s an important one.
It is awfully difficult for people to accept we are just one more species whose survival is a matter of a lucky environment that fits our capacities, including the workings of the brain.
Which brings up the notion of the evolution of consciousness, if there is such a thing.
I am convinced that there is.
DW
I’d have thought the recognition that we’re better off improving how well we can adapt to extreme conditions that aren’t yet here (but could be soon) would push people to act *despite* whatever “uncertainties” they might imagine with the science.
I mean, is it even plausible that we could end up in an environment where we’d all have to consume *more* oil or risk extinction? (That’s the only way I can think of that we’d get spanked by a decision to figure out how to survive with less — assuming we don’t turn to energy sources that are more polluting, etc.)
Bingo!
DW
Precisely well said.
DW
Mark I have not read your interesting book so forgive if this is redundant: But have you covered the work on the survival value of cooperation within and outside the species? A couple of years ago Science Magazine in the News Focus had a nice summary of work done in this area. Unfortunately this is not a free download but the article may be found On the Origin of Cooperation–Elizabeth Pennisi: 4 SEPTEMBER 2009 VOL 325 SCIENCE http://www.sciencemag.org
To the extent that the rich suck more resources than the poor, they may be in kind of a brittle situation if the environment changes in such a way as to vastly reduce the resources they’ve come to depend upon. They could be the big dinosaurs that fall, clearing the field for the small mammals.
(Not that Darwin was advocating class warfare! But what if it turned out that the rich were very tasty and nutritious?)
It is Calvinism.
Using chaos theory as a starting point, I also felt uncomfortable with projected outcomes, especially those that looked to return to some better place, i.e. roll back the clock as the expected outcome of revising the energy policy. But to pursue this any further here could lead OT so I’ll stop here!
The lottery winner as morally worthy and destined to win. It’s an attitude more common after the drawing than before.
I think it’s the sheer number of losses implied by natural selection that intimidates the self-aware human. Discussions of natural selection often center on survivors, but give short shrift to the many, sometimes the great many, of non-survivors or non-procreators. Disney may film bucks and sheep butting horns, and anthropomorphize the winner enjoying his harem, but doesn’t film the many more losers in that game.
Part of what’s interesting about evolution of all sorts is that outcomes are unpredictable. Still, the whole point of our doing things like science is to get a little more warning about what’s coming up so we can deal with it sensible. There are limits to how well we can do that, but it seems like being “nimble”, able to survive in a range of conditions, might not be the worst strategy in a changing world.
You must not, Janet, inject such devastating humor into serious discussion, for it might rattle the wits of certainty.
;~DW
It’s selection. But more significant, It’s RANDOM.
Next, you shall be saying that it would be wise to err on the side of caution. Go on with ya!
DW
Another question for Mark:
In the book, you point out lots of arenas where selective forces of the sort Darwin described can help us get a better grip on what just happened.
Is there an arena in which you think selection would *not* be an appropriate explanatory strategy?
There’s some really interesting work going on around this idea. Part of the misreading of natural selection is that people tend to see “survival of the fittest” (which, BTW, was not Darwin’s phrase) as equivalent to “nature red in tooth and claw.” But there is a lot more going on out there than just developing bigger teeth or faster feet.
Cooperative behavior is something that’s emerged across many different types of animals. It can be as simple as the kind of “swarm intelligence” evinced by everything from insects to herding mammals, or as complex as the interactions you see in prairie dogs or baboons.
It would be interesting to see if it is truly random (what’s a fair coin?)or deterministic in the sense of stochastic behavior in a deterministic system.
Or even amoebas. It seems pretty intrinsic to surviving species.
There are certainly areas where selective pressure is not a very helpful tool. For example, classic physics problems only become more confusing (Mamma mia, said Galileo, see how gravity selects for light and heavy objects just the same! Yeah, that doesn’t work). In general, selection is a simple idea that’s best for dealing with complex systems — especially systems where not all the rules are perfectly understood or easily calculated. If all the pieces of the watch are on the table, along with the assembly instructions, you don’t need ideas about selection to guide your hand. But if you have a thousand watches, and you’re trying to decide which ones would be most appealing to your customers, you’re nudging toward something where selection can be helpful.
A lot of biologists would probably cringe at the way I swing between natural selection and the kind of consumer choice we see in the marketplace. Both are selective pressures, but I’ll confess I’m guilty of massaging a few metaphors to make the two seem more analogous than they often are. Shoot me. It’s more fun that way.
The only thing that is harder to accept than we are not a favorite child of an omnipotent god is the notion that random happens.
Perhaps, that is why there is such ready belief in the “exceptional”?
DW
Or meerkats.
Our current business and governmental leadership seems dominated by behavior more common to cuckoos than bees, more Tiberius St. Francis. Are we to account for it via the selection process employed in rising to such levels of leadership? Since that leadership appears to be unhealthy to most citizens (or worker bees), and not entirely explicable by external factors, what possibilities are there to generate less predatory and more cooperative leadership? Or is cooperative leadership an oxymoron?
Heh!
And yet, sometimes eating your young is the behavior that ends up being adaptive.
Critters like us who have the capacity (even if we don’t always use it) to think about whether competitive behavior or cooperative behavior, in a given situation, is really in our long-term interests. But I wonder how good we are at doing that calculation (or at coming up with reasons in the moment not to do that calculation).
Which makes me wonder whether our big noisy brains will end up being adaptive or maladaptive for us.
As a biologist I do cringe at the practice, well intentioned or not, of applying biologic principles to the market.
I guess we need economists to come up with some better ways to explain it then.
Randomness, mortality, and self-awareness yield intimidating observations, principally that self-awareness, one day, will expire. The void doesn’t stare back, it’s just a void. Describing “eternity” as a function of living memory, not a place or physical attribute, is daunting.
It’s not directed, but it’s not random — though it can be hard to tell the difference.
If you want to deal with organisms at a very high level, you can demonstrate that the overall effect of evolution is equivalent to randomness in a simple way — take a bell curve, slice it down the middle so that one side is tall and the other tails off to nothing. Got it? That’s roughly the distribution of complexity among organisms on Earth. The vast majority of organisms are simple and single celled. The bigger and more complex things are out there at the tip of the tail. Why isn’t there a complete bell curve? Because there are limits on how simple life can get (for statistics buffs, yes this is yet another invocation of “the drunkard’s walk”).
So it looks like the product of random distribution, but there’s a lot more at work in this picture. It’s not truly random.
Ah, reminds of the book, “The Human Race” by Willy Maykit and Betty Whoant.
;~DW
Cannibalism is extremely rare in warm blooded creatures. It is of interest that warm blooded infants pretty universally have cries that attract the parents. Baby lizards do not. Lizards do eat their young.
In one sense, we’re all lottery winners; in another, we’re merely the raw material for an inexhaustible number of future lotteries. The idea that some biological and social bottlenecks are cringeingly tight is easier to contemplate from one end of the bottle than the other.
Yep
Plus, isn’t the idea of a “winner” psychologically more convenient to humans, as well as explanatory of low regard for other species, from this point of view:
Of course, there’s no evidence that intelligence is a survival factor. Depending on the source, you can get numbers for the average “lifespan” of a species ranging from 1 to 10 million years.
Want to make any bets on H. sapiens hanging around another 9 million years plus change?
The one thing I would hope: we use our brains to look for mid-grade disasters. There are a lot of things out there that are ridiculous (see “2012 galactic alignment”) and more than we’re unable to address (see “what happens if a supernova kicks off in your neighborhood”) but there are also plenty of threats that we can do something about, many of them threats that involve our own behavior. If we want to demonstrate that big brains are a good thing, we could start with those.
I guess in some sense the whole selection explanatory pattern is related to what professional philosophers describe as a hypothetical imperative. If you want to survive long enough in this environment to pass your genes on to progeny, here are the bundles of traits that will help you do that. If you want to sell a patent medicine that people will buy in a regulatory environment in which you aren’t allowed to load it up with cocaine or make direct claims of efficacy that you can’t support with data, here are the ingredients and marketing strategies that might work.
In popular discussions of how well adapted or fit we are (as individual humans), we hardly ever mean, “Look at how well I did staying alive and having kids!” But biologically, that’s what being well adapted is about.
The principal forms of life on earth are viruses and bacteria; humans are at the far end of the hyperbolic curve, not in the middle?
Again, I would be interested to know if determinism and stochastic behavior are present in this process. Unlawful behavior in a system governed entirely by laws is a bit of a mind bender!
Nope. Not even sure I’d be willing to bet on humans making it another 9 thousand years
Once the results are known, it’s easier for the lottery winner to imagine the win as deserved or destiny or providence, than it is to contemplate how many times one would have to replay that tape in order to yield the same outcome.
My resistance to it is that it is economists that have been applying their peculiar interpretations of Darwin to the markets. I really should backtrack and say I have no objection to serious study by competent scientists studying the markets from a biological standpoint. But the casual application of the term survival of the fittest has really become a religion practiced by the Masters of the Universe.
For Mark I am so glad to see you taking this on with the seriousness you display. But I would like to see much more justification for comparing consumer selection to environmental selection.
“Of course, there’s no evidence that intelligence is a survival factor. Depending on the source, you can get numbers for the average “lifespan” of a species ranging from 1 to 10 million years.”
Roger Penrose in “Shadows of the Mind” expressed this same idea, and even has a funny cartoon depicting the position of a mathematician in the middle of a survival fight with a saber-toothed tiger!
I guess our performance dealing with mid-grade disasters reminds us that we’re not all choosing strategies on the basis of the same constraints. Some are selecting for a response that seems like is will disrupt ecosystems the least, others are selecting for a response that seems like it will disrupt their economic life the least. (Plus you have the people picking strategies on the basis of short-term predictions vs. those picking strategies on the basis of long-term predictions.)
Also, given its prevalence in modern humans, you have to wonder at which moment in our evolutionary history sloth was the adaptive trait to have. (Or perhaps sloth is one of those spandrels …)
Well said. This is why I personally have become convinced we will not deal with global warming and likely most life will have to die off before it can cycle back.
I have to go. Thanks so much for a great discussion.
Actually there is a twice winner of the main prize in an Oregon lottery several years ago who was a very well off founder of a local restaurant chain.
We couldn’t believe it at the time!
A question I think the book raises (and which I pose in the post introducing this discussion):
What’s adaptive advantage of having our preexisting (and unconscious) biases select for some clearly wrong beliefs while selecting against some well-supported and frankly useful ideas?
The issue for me is the frequency of cooperative behavior, and the tolerance for predatory behavior. So far as we know, snails, trees and meerkats don’t have a moral responsibility to their species mates (though the jury might be out on meerkats). Saying we have a tendency to certain behavior traits is not to say we should garnish them equally with social approval.
The drive for social approval is one of our strongest traits as a species, I would submit. Once obtained, it persists despite much evidence that the actual behavior is harmful. Look, for example, at how hard Obama and Peterson are seeking social approval to cut welfare spending, while leaving taxes on the wealthy at historic lows, in the midst of a depression.
We sometimes think about animals as if they were stereotypical Indians from a bad 70s western — the wolf knows not to kill too many deer so that there will be more deer for the future, etc. etc. (I can practically hear the beep of the film strip projector from my 8th grade science class). The truth is that all sorts of organisms adopt strategies that provide short term benefits and long-term disaster. Sometimes those strategies end up sinking individuals, sometimes whole species.
Some of those organisms are called Republicans.
The improbability of it would power a starship.
Great response!
Gotta leave also. Great discussion and thanks to Mark and JD for bringing this to FDL.
Came late. I would note that the intro concentrates on the reception of Darwin but the title of the work indicates a broad application of the principle of selection. I share TalkingStick’s concerns. We have seen many invocations of social Darwinism and all of them have been bad.
I would also note that Stephen J. Gould made the point, again and again, that evolution is not about progress from simpler forms to more complex ones. Rather bacteria are and have been almost from the beginning the dominant life form on the planet and in terms of evolution. We are a statistical oddity at the far end of the tail.
Complicating the need we feel for social approval: the recognition that we can get it (at least sometimes) through mimetic behavior — seeming to be doing the thing that will give us that approval but not *actually* doing it. (Since this gets you the reward and save you the cost of doing that praise worthy behavior, this is the best strategy of all — unless you’re outed as a faker.)
This kind of explanation of why individuals make “bad” choices (e.g., why sometimes scientists fabricate data) makes a lot of sense. But it also presses on the issue of whether the larger group giving the approval or other reward that is sought (e.g., the community of science in deciding who gets grants or tenure, etc.) are actually selecting for the right things, given the larger goals of the group.
In the long run, we’re all dead, so it seems possible the short-term is what counts. The ant-grasshopper fable suggests that short-term behavior needn’t always be extractive to be of short-term, but not immediate advantage.
Maybe this is where levels of selection questions come in — is my behavior well adapted if it gets me over the reproductive hurdle, or is it sometimes aimed at getting my progeny, and their progeny, over it, too?
And of course, whether those progeny are my genetic kin or are more distantly related to me might make a difference, too.
In general, we’re wired to believe. We’re the survivors of those guys who jumped at shadows, not the ones who looked back in the cave and said “naw, nothing home” right before the short-faced bear attacked. We are inclined to be suckers. But we’re also the guys who weighed the odds, took chances, and made it. I’d like to think we can make that work for us if we’re given the opportunity… but how many basic logic classes are they teaching in your local elementary schools? (And to visit my current pet peeve, when’s the last time the History channel offered a special that didn’t present a false equivalence between science and mysticism?)
But here’s the one that baffles me: all those things I talked about in response to the first question? How resistant people are to ideas that say “you are not the center of the universe”? How come that same mechanism doesn’t kick in when people are told “you are screwing up the climate”? Instead, people seem to default to “pick any answer but we’re causing it, and I’ll believe you.”
Self-sacrifice is a common behavior, one often adorned with the greatest of religious significance. But as you say, there are predators who can mimic the behavior and obtain social approval without the sacrifice. It seems to frequently empower the predator with other resources that allow it to flourish.
Another question for Mark, getting into the more Culture War-y aspects of popular thinking and discourse about Darwin in particular and evolution more generally:
In the book, you note that a lot of the baggage that “Darwinism” carries around with it are add-ons from others, not things Darwin actually included in his theory. I reckon that this tendency didn’t end with Spencer or Galton.
In our current climate, who do you see as the successors to Spencer, Galton, and that crowd? Who’s using the mantle of Darwin to advance an agenda that’s completely separable from the core of Darwin’s theory of evolution? (And, do you think they recognize that this is what they’re doing?)
In a lot of ways, the long term never gets “debugged” by the process of selection. Human society gets some advantage from the relay of information by the older generations, otherwise you could be carrying genes that caused you to burst into flame at 45, and it would have minimal impact on odds of passing along your genetic heritage.
So perhaps it’s not surprising that thinking beyond the moment is a rare trait.
Like our genes, our behavior is an agglomeration of historically and currently useful traits, some of which have ancillary benefits that can become primary, others of which are outright harmful when exhibited in different circumstances?
I’m going to wander a little off topic and say that in many ways I see the whole political system of the United States right now as dominated by a single idea — purity vs diversity. On one side are
forces that want to promote the interests of a particular subset of the culture which they view as being more like the “traditional” version of America. However, they fail to recognize (refuse to recognize is more accurate) that this group is wildly different — in their religious views, in their economic views, in their social views — from the past they idolize. Many of the people in this group are still espousing the Social Statics theories of Howard Spencer, only they don’t recognize the source.
On the other side is a group that both is more diverse and favors more diversity. In the short term, the “purity” group gains strength simply from its ability to shape and support its own environment. The diversity group appears less organized and suffers more internal conflict, which comes because while their views are often similar their priorities are all over the board.
At the risk of stretching the metaphor to the breaking point, think of it as wildebeests vs antelopes. Wildebeests are powerful, numerous, and they use their “herd mentality” to an advantage. They all move together and tackle obstacles by reacting in predictable ways. Antelopes are smaller and highly divergent in both size and appearance. They sometimes form larger herds, but often exist in small groups. Anyone watching the annual migration of wildebeests is likely to be overwhelmed at the power on display and the way all the animals move together. They appear unstoppable. Antelopes are… not so impressive. However, there are only two species of wildebeests limited to a relatively narrow environment. There are over ninety species of antelopes and they tackle all sorts of habitats. In the long term, my money is on the antelope. In the long term, purity = fragility.
Like you, I bet on diversity versus the monoculture.
However, to the extent that we have different groups (with different strategies) competing for the same scarce resources, it’s not surprising to see the wildebeest in our political environment making a go at getting to all those resources before the antelopes — indeed, trying to use their political power to give them better access to the resources and the antelopes worse access.
Maybe this requires the antelopes (in the metaphor) to tweak their strategy. But a big question for me is how to do that without becoming wildebeests yourself in the process.
That would be an interesting segue into the problems/opportunities of both GM and BigAg’s monoculture of our prime feed crops.
There’s actually a nice discussion in the book of bananas, and how getting “the perfect banana” from clones (all genetically identical to each other) renders them more susceptible to disease than if we had a variety of bananas in the marketplace.
(I worry about apples, too — there are many fewer varieties at the supermarket than there were when I was I kid. Of course, there were still filmstrips back then.)
There’s no doubt that our just-in-time, best-of-breed infrastructure is incredibly fragile at many points. Take a look at the introduction to James Burke’s 1978 book, Connections and read the tale of the East Coast blackout. The chain of mistakes and physical connections is enough to make you shudder — especially when you realize that things have become much, much worse since then.
In many ways what we think of as “efficiency and productivity” in the economic sense are the enemies of flexibility and robustness. A single virus did in most of the world banana supply in the 1950s, a single switch failure lead to a blackout across the Eastern seaboard that lead to a number of deaths, and that kind of fragility grows by the day.
Take a look at the nearest Interstate interchange and tell me how many of the stores you see are not part of some huge national or international chain. That’s not a system that generates stability.
Every red delicious apple you ever ate is a clone from a tree that sprouted in an Iowa field in 1880. You can imagine how vulnerable such a system is to disease and pests, and how extreme the steps are to prevent either from taking hold.
A thought I just had in thinking about the parallels between natural selection in the biological world (weeding out individuals who display traits that are maladaptive in their environments and leaving the rest of the individuals free to spawn the next generation) and discussions of something like selection operating in economic and political realms:
What is it that defines whatever is analogous to species in these other realms? Instead of a common genetic endowment (with the requisite variation so as not to be completely identical from one generation to the next), is it a shared set of explicit goals? A common store of unconscious biases (or ways-the-world-feels-like-it-has-to-be)? Something else altogether?
The apple problem is being solved at least in my neck of the woods. Black Alabamas, Pink Ladies, Empire, Mutsu, Braeburn and more can all be found at Apple Hill, CA.
As we come to the end of this great Book Salon,
Mark, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with is discussing your new book and evolution.
Janet, Thank you again for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you would like more information:
Mark’s website
Janet’s website
Thanks all.
Just one more reason some of us take city streets whenever possible!
Late to the party so don’t know if this was covered. I always find evolution circular: evolution leads to survival of the fittest, and we know they are the fittest because they survived. Where do I go wrong in my thinking?
Thanks again for inviting me, Bev. The discussions here are always thought-provoking.
“Survival of the fittest” is a phrase from Herbert Spencer (proponent of Social Darwinism, and more of a Lamrckian himself).
Darwin was basically giving us a theory where pressures in the environment put a constraint on which organisms survive long enough to reproduce. Heritable traits that reduce your ability to survive in that environment make it more likely that you get weeded out, so the genetic endowment of the next generation is likely to have a lower frequency of the genes that caused those traits.
Looking at it that way (without the sloganeering), it’s not such a tautology.
spocko is upstairs!
Why Fiduciary Responsibility Beats Moral Responsibility
Thanks.
Some are called Max Baucus.
As a fan of the English Cox’s Pippin and of the more obscure but tastier of the 88+ varieties of potato grown at Wisley, in Surrey, I would not be sad at the demise of the red delicious apple; but I would be sad at the wholesale economic damage of such a calamity.
For some reason, this discussion reminds me of the great spaghetti harvest of 1957, which the BBC covered in depth in a broadcast on April 1st. The consistent length and texture of the fruit was achieved only after years of meticulous selection for the desired traits. The long, short and thick varieties were ruthlessly culled, and sold to macaroni vendors or distributed by migrant linguine sellers. And heavens, what a calamity a wet harvest could wreak!
The broadcast was received rather like the original broadcast of War of the Worlds: some viewers wanted to know where they could import spaghetti hybrids from Switzerland, others displayed a complete lack of a sense of humour.
I am very sorry that I missed this discussion as it occurred, so I am dropping in quite late. I bought a copy of Sumner’s book at the Netroots Nation convention– it was the only book I bought, and I look forward to reading it. However, I must respond to this point:
This is not entirely true. If there is a long period of environmental stability in a given area, some of the species that inhabit it will adapt to their stable niche to a highly efficient degree– until the environment changes. Then they become like Spotted Owls, unable to adapt to the new realities. Other species are generalists– e.g. omnivores– rather than evolving a super-efficient adaptation to a particular food supply in the stable environment, they muck around. They are at a disadvantage as long as the environment stays stable, but if it changes, then all of a sudden they can take advantage of what is available.
Besides, Stephen J Gould showed us that evolution is not always a matter of slow and steady progress, but a series of punctuated equilibria– rapid evolution for a short time, followed by a long periods of very slow evolution.
I look forward to reading the rest of the comments, and Sumner’s responses!
Bob in AZ
Am I the only person here who noticed that this became a great big circle-jerk among us liberals, where we sit around going “we’re so fucking wonderful, Darwinism proves it all!”
No. Social Darwinism is a terrible idea and Mr. Sumner shouldn’t have written a literal book on how to do it in a new, more socially acceptable way. It’s the act of the priesthood, saying ‘believe me, I know why you do things”…
No way to test this theory. No way to really examine it. But it’s out there, and it’s attractive, yes? Ooh, people do it for this reason. That reason. They’re thinking short-term goals, long-term goals, yadda yadda yadda. All bullshit.
Whenever we decide that “someone else!”, name it God or Selection or whatever you want, is responsible for human action, we once again shift the blame for ourselves onto something else. Here we blame biology for it. Could blame religion, politics, whatever.
But in the end, it’s our fault.
An interesting example of this was in the news recently: a swarm of alligators converged on a school of fish in a swamp, surrounding the fish and enabling the ‘gators to share in a feeding frenzy.
Bob in AZ
Aren’t you confusing a particular theory of social evolution with the phenomenon of social evolution itself? Or do you deny that social evolution occurs at all? or that selection operates at all on a social level? I doubt you have read the book; you have evidently decided that you already know what is in the book so you don’t have to read it. Your dismissive attitude is not helpful.
Social evolution occurs. Sumner does a good job in helping us think about this phenomenon, and shows us some ways of thinking productively about it.
Bob in AZ