[Ed. Note: A vote is expected today on a $33 billion war supplemental, H.R. 4899. See Siun's previous post for more information.]
It’s fascinating to watch the so-called “progressive” COIN fans circle the wagons over the Wikileaks release of over 90,000 files from Afghanistan. Everywhere you look – from Joshua Foust to our very own Attackerman’s selection of Adam Weinstein’s post in Mother Jones as the “winner” of “the WikiLeaks commentary contest” – you’ll find concerned military journos assuring us that there’s really nothing there, no need to bother our pretty little heads trying to read or understand these files. As Weinstein writes: “But in truth, there’s not much there. I know, because I’ve seen many of these reports before—at least, thousands of similar ones from Iraq, when I was a contractor there last year.”
Repeating the White House and Pentagon talking points that “ there were few, if any, revelations in the documents” many followed the lead of Andrew Exum who, after assuring us that he has “spent the past two days” looking at the 92,000 files (even though his piece was published considerably less than 48 hours after the release) and “seen nothing in the documents that has either surprised me or told me anything of significance,” goes on to express his concern for us poor befuddled readers:
The publication of these documents, by contrast, dumps 92,000 new primary source documents into the laps of the world’s public with no context, no explanation as to why some accounts may contradict others, no sense of what is important or unusual as opposed to the normal march of war.
Many experts on the war, both in the military and the press, have long been struggling to come to grips with the conflict’s complexity and nuances. What is the public going to make of this haphazard cache of documents, many written during combat by officers with little sense of how their observations fit into the fuller scope of the war?
What these fellows miss is that the documents are important for us to read precisely because they are raw original source materials “written during combat by officers.” After years of watching the ISAF press office attempt to coverup mass civilian casualty events until some reporter or local doctor provides a cell phone video, after years of rhetoric from Bush and now Obama claiming progress in this disaster than spirals further into chaos, after all those McChrystal claims of caution and concern for the people of Afghanistan, we can now read the actual reports ourselves, with no PR officer to hide the facts. (cont’d.)
Not surprisingly, many overseas journalists have found a lot to pay attention to in these files. The Guardian notes:
Further disclosures reveal more evidence of attempts by coalition commanders to cover up civilian casualties in the conflict…
The war logs show how a group of US marines who went on a shooting rampage after coming under attack near Jalalabad in 2007 recorded false information about the incident, in which they killed 19 unarmed civilians and wounded a further 50.In another case that year, the logs detail how US special forces dropped six 2,000lb bombs on a compound where they believed a “high-value individual” was hiding, after “ensuring there were no innocent Afghans in the surrounding area”. A senior US commander reported that 150 Taliban had been killed. Locals, however, reported that up to 300 civilians had died.
But I guess these events just fall into Exum’s “normal march of war.”
And that march continues as we noted Sunday with the BBC’s report of yet another massacre of Afghan civilians:
At least 45 civilians, many women and children, were killed in a rocket attack by the Nato-led foreign force in Afghanistan’s southern Helmand province last week, a spokesperson for the Afghan government said on Monday.
The incident happened in Helmand’s Sangin district on Friday when civilians crammed into a mud-built house to flee fighting between Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) troops and Taliban insurgents, Siyamak Herawi told Reuters.
As usual, the ISAF press office is saying this didn’t happen, admitting that forces had “used helicopters and precision-guided missiles while responding to insurgent attacks near Regey village,” but claiming “All fires were observed and accounted for and struck the intended target.”
Yet we know that a BBC reporter went to the area, saw wounded children – and there are photos of the same circulating – and spoke to witnesses of the missile(s) that hit the house where the families tried to hide from the firefight.
As one of the survivors asked:
“They can see something as small as an insect just four inches on the ground, so how were they not able to see all of those women and children when they bombed them?”
And how can we see them if we do not look at the kinds of reports found in the wikileaks Afghanistan war logs?
Or is making sure we don’t see them the very reason why the Pentagon cheerleaders like Exum want us to ignore the Wikileaks story?
Today, the House of Representatives will vote on the latest Obama War Supplemental Act. You can let them know we are readng these files and we want to know why they are approving even more money for this fiasco. Let them know that you will not turn away from what Assange calls the squalor of our war and occupation in Afghanistan.
Video: The Guardian’s guide to reading the 300 “key” files they’ve published from the release. These files are here – it’s a good place to start before heading into the full 92,000.



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Mornin’, Siun
Thanks for the post. Nothing like telling the “little people” that there’s nothing to be seen in the docs. Just makes those with a brain want to see them all.
This is a non issue at daily kos right now. Nothing on this topic over there.
Why does that not surprise me? Can’t make things uncomfortable for Markos’ hero.
Pentagon Press Sec. on MSNBC now whining that if Chuck Todd had got the documents first, he would have called the pentagon and they could have sat down together and gone through them to make sure there wasn’t anything in there that would hurt the troops.
Politico had a survey up yesterday regarding the release of these documents. Seventy per cent of the respondents said (when I checked it) that the release of this information was a “threat to our national security.” How’s that brainwashin’ workin’ out for ya? Obviously, the majority of sheeple have drunk the Kool-Aid and refuse to see the obvious. It’s always the 20% of so of us who look behind the curtain.
With regard to the so-called raw data and the little people not being able to comprehend it, I’ll state the obvious: Whether we understand the information or not, we still get to pay the bills.
A little bit OT but not really, I heard a report on NPR this morning about college kids who are sleeping in friends’ rooms and other areas of the campus because they can’t afford to stay in campus housing but want to continue their education. How far down have we gone that we value guns and killing over educating and providing affordable housing for our students?
TPM is mum on the issue also.
Good morning, Siun, cathy, and SD …
We mustn’t trouble the minds of the people with stories of thing gone awry, after all, they’ve other concerns to occupy them, such as putting food on their families and deciding which channel to watch, as well as worrying about Tiger and Lindsay …
Perhaps, if it can be framed as “boring” and “nothing new”, sufficiently, the ruling classes can get on with their “business”, unfettered by doubt or questioned by reason?
“Looking forward” … of course, as all good Americans should do …
Would that this were simply snark …
DW
Good post, Siun. Very pointed.
That’s right, we have all the latest Police
Propaganda, er, summer shows, coming on now to occupy the citizen’s minds and reinforce that the Police are really, truly, nice people, with their best interests at heart. Wikileaks must be translated to a fifth grade reading level and illustrated for a comic book layout to generate any interest among the greater US population-any volunteers?The importance of the documents is that like the Pentagon Papers, whose contents are vastly different, someone thought that the public needed to know what was going on because DoD press control was suppressing important information.
We won’t know the importance of the contents of the document drop until folks have a chance to go through the over-90,000 documents. The sample of 300 that the Guardian summarized might not be representative. There might be something more important that was missed.
The names of US troops were not redacted from the documents; that is indeed a risk to the troops still in Afghanistan or folks with similar names. And a smaller risk of later retaliation in the US for individuals involved in particularly egregious acts. But what’s out there is out there, and the folks named will soon know about it.
Comparing field operation reports with local reports has its problems. The reports from US troops might hype success and minimize failure and civilian casualties. Depending on the source of local reports, they might be accurate or they might be exaggerated. This is even more true of air strike reports; air strikes depend on the intelligence information delivered to the crews; there is no way an air stike mission crew can accurately know what they hit. Someone has to be on the ground to report the results. And lots can happen between the air strike and the on-ground observation.
A recent DK Post is “The Astonishing Lameness of Barack Obama”. The comments begin with astonishing lameness.
The comments continue about the Meta Tip Jar. Wikileaks, not so much.
I read a financial blog regularly and the author wrote about the leaked papers but from a financial viewpoint.
He was complaining about the financial cost of an un-winable war. The readers of this blog are mostly libertarians and republicans. This topic makes for some unusual bedfellows.
Here’s an easy one that should register in the minds of low information voters and “Attention Deficit Disorder” afflicted Americans.
The tidbit about a Bin Laden meeting in Quetta in 2006 should set off some type of bullshit alarms. It does require they remember how we’ve been told for the last seven years that Bin Laden is “somewhere” in Pakistan, but nobody knows where. Well, seems they know a whole lot about his movements.
Hell, the most rabid war supporters gotta wonder WTF is going on, eh? The US allegedly “let” Osama slip away to Tora Bora years ago and now it appears he’s serving the US in endless war.
We will never know the truth about this clusterf__k.
The only thing I’m certain of is it’s designed to continue past the rest of my life.
It’s really sad to see that treason is not only alive and well, it’s being eagerly abetted and even celebrated.
That doesn’t seem like a bad thing.
I stopped reading the polls in the US. It’s too terrifying.
So right about the brainwashing thing.
It is pretty hard to defend, so if one has been pro-slaughter all along, admitting the whole thing was a big fat christian holy war is not going to be on the agenda.
I’m not surprised he/they are quiet. What can they possibly have to say? “It was fun while it lasted.”
Pentagon LOST/STOLE another shitpile of OUR MONEY
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq-funds-20100727,0,3856364.story
Why should the troops names not be published? Why should they not be held responsible for fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq? I don’t understand what the secrecy thing is all about. It’s a war. Would anyone have objected to the publication of names of soldiers who fought in wwII during the war? So what’s the diff?
Don’t be so hard on the government. They’re only looking out for their corporate masters. I mean, we’re the ones who let the little weasels take over, didn’t we?
Has to be kept secrud though. Can’t let us know that our fearless leaders are committing treason. That would be unpatriotic.
The diff is their families saying, “Wait a minute, you told us he died taking a hill against enemy fire. You Pentagon assholes are LIARS!”
Oh, silly me not to see why someone might not want to know the truth. /s
Has anyone in Pentagon or WH or elsewhere in USG alleged that the docs are either not accurate or biased? The only denials I’ve heard is that it’s a threat to national security to know the truth? Just heard Gibbs clip on democracynow say that there are no new revelations in the docs. All the more reason to have them public.
Many experts on the war, both in the military and the press, have long been struggling to come to grips with the conflict’s complexity and nuances. What is the public going to make of this haphazard cache of documents,
Well, maybe they’ll think this war is a giant clusterf@#k and we need to get out now?
Really, how is the US pays Pakistan, Pakistan works with Taliban, US fights Taliban loop going to hold up to scrutiny for much longer?
This war is a an uncapped gusher of money in the budget. There’s no blowout preventer, there’s no junk shot, the tophat surge won’t work.
All that’s left to do is cut off the money, and leave AfPak.
Many experts on the gusher, both in the industry and the press, have long been struggling to come to grips with the gusher’s complexity and nuances.
forgot to ask you,what new book you were reading on financial collapse?
WikiLeaks on MSNBC,
Morning Joe
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/#38427349
Ari Fleischer, “If it is classified it shouldn’t be leaked … blah, blah, blah.”
It is always interesting to see the mass murderers and war criminals argue why they should be allowed so much secrecy. He loves Mika because he knows she is one of them and will treat him kindly. Gag.
how is this different from Nam,cept for body armour?
TREASON.
It is.
(How that word frightens, the act, apparently, not. so. much.)
Consider how long it took for that other “T” word to pass the lips of most?
Yes.
Treason …
No less.
DW
dont watch those sociopaths
Typical DKos. O/T: I’ve noticed that slight criticism of Obama is allowed, as long as there are at least 15 paragraphs of fanboy-like praise and lots of photos showing Obama being awesome.
That other T word: Tattle-tale?
How dare they!
Read Yves Smith Econned, before that Stiglitz Freefall. I’m on to other subjects while I mull how to write about fin crisis & economy. So read Lenin’s Tomb on USSR, Road to 9/11 (which discusses the ‘deep govt’ in detail, which is impt wrt fin crisis), and now am reading Leopold’s Ghost about Belgian Congo, which is also relevant to ‘deep govt,’ or how leaders with an agenda pull the wool over people’s eyes. Leopold was a master of it. Puts W to shame both on propaganda front and on execution of cruelties. Most people around the globe thought, for a long time, that Leopold was a benevolent ruler who sought to eliminate those terrible Arab-African slave traders and civilize those primitive Congolese tribes who so needed enlightened Europeans to guide them
Road to 9/11
that was the one…thanks
colonialist…worlds greatest thieves
New post up top…
Leopold’s Ghost about Belgian Congo
isnt that about 10 years old…think i read that…they all copy the monsters of history
Ah, but where would we be unless the true war sophisticates were not there to protect us from the bad behaviors that we really shouldn’t know about. They get paid to expunge history so we won’t have to.
We surely need an ethically challenged elite to protect us from knowing about their mistakes or their profits surrounding their intentional misdeeds.
Why the next thing you know folks will start saying that a transparent government is a necessity for democracies.
Mixed reviews on that one. Very good on the history, esp Nixon and how he & Kissinger made foreign policy between the two of them. Good on Halloween massacre, which is when Cheney-Rumsfeld took over US execute branch under Ford. Pretty good on Reagan dirty tricks. But the implications of the Continuity of Govt, which I’ve always wondered about, a core Cheney-Rumsfeld invention, and how it ties into MOTU, not well described. Too much detail questioning timing of phone calls to puppet W on 9/11 and not enough on what the goal was. But maybe it’s too soon for that, but I think those who’ve studied it should know more about motives since C-R have been in cahoots for decades.
by you
More deadly and indiscriminate machine warfare?
Boy, I hope this re-energizes the anti-war movement. People have had enough of these wars.
There has to be a movement against the war criminal Oilbummer and this may be the spark.
BTW, where’s Digby on this? I haven’t heard much from her.
One nice thing about leaked docs (among many) is that it answers my qs about how helicopters are being shot down. Amazing how NATO’s managed to keep secret that other side has heat seeking shoulder fired missiles.
Could the big, red flag be any…um…bigger and redder?
Wait. This is comedy, right?
It is not only military journos who are questioning what is new here, there are others much further to the left who wonder what all this is really about. If you watch JA’s press conference, he says he gets asked the question of what is new here more than any other and all he said basically is that war is hell, day in and day out, people become amputees. We didn’t need Wikileaks to tell us that though did we? Go ahead and look through the 90k items, but keep in mind a few things:
-These are no Pentagon Papers. These items come over the computer and can be viewed by hundreds and perhaps more than a thousand folks. The Pentagon Papers were high level and showed that at the top the view was that Vietnam was a failure.
-For the first time in Wikileaks history, the items are provided without digital signatures. What explains this unprecedented fact?? The site has not put up any new documents for 6 months but now does so without the signatures? Odd.
-Why is Wikileaks “overpromising” security in the words of John Young of cryptome? They cannot guarantee a whistleblower’s anonymity, as we see with Manning, but they seem to be doing just that.
-Keep in mind that Wikileaks has kept back many documents. They are not a repository of leaked documents, but rather another group of editors standing between reality and the public. Just as we recognize that all news organizations have their biases, we should recognize Wikileaks does also. Let’s please not assume that Wikileaks=TheTruth. That would be as foolish as assuming NTY=TheTruth.
-Are we really supposed to believe that JA fears the CIA yet cheerily pops up in Brussels and the UK?? People who fear intelligence agencies usually keep a much much lower profile disappearing to Argentina, not hopping around Europe. Very odd.
-The only people who are truly upset are the Pakistani intelligence people. Are we to believe that this was not intended? I’m very skeptical.
Was listening to Gibbs yesterday saying the leaks were a crime. Yeah, a crime to tell the frickin’ truth. And who are the real criminals here???
What an upside down world we live in. The rhetoric of the Oilbummer Brigade (re leaks) sounds strangely like Junior Bush’s. Or am I wrong?
My opinion. The Wikileaks documents provide a picture of the Afghanistan war from the same perspective as folks saw on the nightly news during the Vietnam war. But instead of a few actions per day, it document almost every action for six years.
That LA Times story is perfect:
Of that amount, the military failed to provide any records at all for $2.6 billion in purported reconstruction expenditure
…
“The breakdown in controls left the funds vulnerable to inappropriate uses and undetected loss,” notes the audit report,
If we could just figure out some way to put a video camera on the money and stream it online…..
Indeed, and – equally important – these reports are the raw data that our governments use to determine military policy in Afghanistan. They not only render the war, but also the policy decisions that extend the war, less opaque.
It all depends on who is holding them responsible. We’re not the only actors in these conflict who keep hit lists. And that fact legitimizes the “endangers the troops” response for why the reports needed to be kept secret. Of particular concern is the fact that the full roster of air strike flight crews is listed.
Now if you are talking about following up on the evidence presented in the reports to determine breaches of the law, those names are important to be in context.
On the other side of the coin, the response of those who are cheerleading the war is to make these folks automatic heroes.
Clearly someone forgot to tell the Pakistani’s that these new revelations by Wikileaks mean absolutely nothing.
I am the Obama Administration…Hear me SPIN!!
Web based vaudeville mixed with a bit of McCarthy – Joe not Charley.
Well, golly gee, it must be our turn. The cheerleaders of the Iraq War had their turn with the burning of Valerie Plame Wilson.
Mother Jones is pathetic.
They should just change their name to Mother and leave it at that.
Look man, these are war crimes. Killing innocent kids for nothing is fucking immoral and insane. I don’t know how to make it any plainer than that. Our gov’t (all gov’ts for that matter) are run by murderous lunatics, if you really think about it. I believe John Lennon had a quote about that and I am paraphrasing… “They think I’m insane for pointing out their insanity…”
What did you think they did with the missiles we delivered to them to shoot down Soviet helicopters? Must have been a bunch of those left after the Soviets left. And the civil wars did not provide them with many helicopter targets to deplete their stockpile.
Alternatively, who else makes those kinds of missiles?
Precisely!
How dare we learn what it is our taxes pay for and our government does in our name.
Ye olde “Move-along-there-is-nothing-new-to-see-here” spin move in heavy traffic is as trite as beginning a story with “It started innocently enough,” and ending it with, “and suddenly a dog barked in the night.”
As Julian Assange said, it’s the sheer volume of reports detailing the numbing nastiness of armed people gone mad and the unavoidable human suffering of the civilians caught in the middle of their bullshit. Mistakes happen and innocent people die again and again day in and day out. It’s hell made manifest on Earth and there is no end in sight.
The best the White House can come up with is to say all of this happened before Obama announced his new strategy in December, but that would be the strategy that has produced a record number of NATO and U.S. deaths each month this year, a humiliating defeat in the effort to take and hold Marja, and the deaths of 45 more innocent civilians this past weekend.
The field reports conclusively disprove the COIN strategy. It’s impossible for an occupying military force to win the hearts and minds of the civilian population in the country that it occupies.
This point should have been obvious to anyone who has witnessed a war up close and personal. No one has any reason anymore to wonder why so many of our troops suffer from PTSD and why their suicide rate is so high.
This is why the reports are significant and this is why anyone who pimps this war or votes in favor of the war supplemental is insane and unfit to serve in the military or hold public office.
Us, the French, the English, the Russians, probably the Chinese and a few others that don’t come to mind right away. Our number one hardware export in dollars generated is military stuff.
War is fucking immoral and insane. Full stop. Killing civilians happens in war. Always has, always will. In an asymmetric war, the whole idea is for the insurgents to blend in with civilians so that the occupying army can’t distinguish between them.
War crimes are illegal and involve proof of intent. They are immoral, insane, and potentially punishable under the law. And aside from national laws, there is the Geneva Conventions and the International Criminal Court (which the US has not agreed to use).
And to make your point that there are actual war crimes in these documents, you have to have read them sufficient to cite the incidents. And they have to explicitly or implicitly express intent. Such as troops killed persons known to be innocent civilians. Given the formalities of the documents, I imagine that sort of blatant admission is suppressed.
Governments have been run by murderous lunatics for as long as there has been written history. And that to a lot of people has seemed preferable to a war of all against all. For a glimpse of war of all against all, consider the gun nut vision of society.
I’m outraged by the war, but I don’t know yet how much these documents will make the case for ending it any more than other reports.
I would suspect that North Korea would be interested in them as an export good, but I don’t know if they have developed them.
So what? They did what they did and they deserve to be identified. Many probably deserve to be prosecuted for war crimes, not that they ever will be with Obama, the torture and war criminal apologist.
If, as happened in Viet Nam, a news photographer photographed a soldier shooting a civilian in the back as the civilian ran away, and that photograph was shown on television, the outrage and criticism was directed at the soldier, not the photographer, and this is absolutely proper.
Why can’t you fathom this obvious point?
You are choosing to be willfully blind and not see the forest for the trees. When you open your eyes and see the forest, you will understand what I’m talking about.
What’s that about ignorance and bliss?
The whole Iraq war is a war crime. I don’t have to look at any documents to know that.
” . . . in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan . . .”
We got the same line of BS with regard to the torture tapes, “You’ll harm the troops! The fallout will only damage our image! You just want to see gore!”
Absolute smoke-screen rubbish designed to distract from the real, obvious, underlying reason to oppose transparency: to cover law-breakers’ asses.
Yah but the North Korea models are using diesel motors and really long strings for guidance.
I agree that those who committed war crimes need to be prosecuted for those war crimes. But unlike Vietnam, judicial solutions are not the only possible outcome. And everyone named is not guilty of a war crime just because they have been sent to fight a war. “Crime” being a legal not a moral category.
Given the fact that the material that Wikileaks received includes unredacted names, it would have still been possible to provide to prosecutors or investigators the names associated with any incident clearly a war crime. Not all persons named are guilty of war crimes, but they still could become a target of retaliation.
And there is a lot of presupposition of what is actually in the documents by all sides.
Here’s a situation that is common. A unit is given dubious intelligence that they have no choice but to treat as operational. They attack a designated target. After action investigation shows that there were no insurgents there but several civilians, including kids, were killed. They report it as they saw it. The report becomes “US soldiers killing civilians”, which is literally and technically true but misses the broader story. The US is fighting a war in which the intelligence is crappy and subject to ignorance and misinformation that can cause US units to kill civilians. Bigger picture. The US is fighting a war of occupation; that is the fundamental problem. And it doesn’t work like it did before World War II; the British found that in India; the French found that in Algeria; the US found that in Vietnam, and foolishly engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq. Counterinsurgency is a mirage.
I’m not outraged by the fact that Wikileaks didn’t redact names, but charges of endangering the troops have a kernel of truth that shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.
Have you looked at the documents yet. If you haven’t you can’t say I am willfully blind.
Not one more life sacrificed in vain.
End this illegal and insane war NOW!
Iraq, yes. That is a demonstrable crime of policy. It clearly violates international law.
Afghanistan is different. There is a figleaf of self-defense in our original invasion up to bin Laden’s escape from Torabora. Everything else is a failed attempt at nationbuilding.
I hope so.
Whether or not one looks at the documents–and we all should–using drones to drop bombs on small villages in a desperately impoverished country is immoral. Bottom line. Shades of Vietnam. Have we learned anything in 40 yrs???
Everyone is worrying about the US troops. Well, what about all the innocents killed by our criminal gov’t??? Who speaks for them? Who? I am sick of this blind troop worship in this country. It’s unseemly and wrong.
We are yet in the early phase of “revelation”, Tarheel, there is more, much more to come, some of it, possibly, may yet fall within applicable SOL.
The flood-gates are not yet open, the levvy has not yet been breached …
Time will tell.
It always does.
DW
I’m dismissing your concern because I believe it’s irrelevant, and even if it were relevant, I do not agree that any person identified by name in a report, or someone with the same or similar sounding name, is at risk for reprisal back in the USSA.
At least we agree that war is hell and this war is indefensible and that’s a lot more important IMO than arguing about names.
Ah, like the first rays of sun that lift the morning fog, so are the words of Siun and fiercely anti-war firedogs.
I had the same reaction to Matthew Hoh on Democracy Now! yesterday.
We must not attach moral colorations to immoral acts that go beyond our own laws of war? WTF?!
Didn’t he just answer his own question? If this is all as moral as the weather, then what’s there to be upset about? Does he think Petraeus, McChrystal, and the lot are freakin’ meteorologists?! Sir, I don’t think that word means what you seem to think it means: MOTU.
Why is he hammering Congress, and not the IIC ‘n MIC establishments that pulled off this national hijacking? Oh, riiiight, because, despite his resignation, he’s still establishmentarian at heart.
Where was Congress? Complicit, sometimes even corrupted, yes, when they weren’t being co-opted and neutralized by the Exec.
Where were the People?! Brainwashed by psy ops generally reserved for preparing battlefields.
Likewise, I don’t understand why a cheerleader for war is associated with FDL.
Whatever happened to Ack’s “one serious motherfucking success”? In the article, he admits–in an offhand way–that our ally, Pakistan, is known to torture. What we need to do, he says, is be smart and not torture this VIP detainee.
That. Is. So. Wrong.
No, Ackerman, we need to be moral human beings, and not torture anyone, not have anything to do with torturers, actively seek to bring them to justice.
Once upon a time, it was considered one serious motherfucking crime, to know about torture, but neither investigate nor prosecute. So why isn’t Ack investigating the torture of our “staunch allies” in the “war on terror”?
Because they and the CIA just pulled off “one serious motherfucking success,” and now we should all bow down and kiss the ISI’s ass, you know-nothing silly-vilians. When we want our victory parade, we’ll let you know. Until then, get in, sit down, strap in, shut up, and hold on, we’re going for a ride.
Actually, Ack, if, by “deal with terrorism,” you mean, deal with our allies, who are supporting the so-called terrorists, I gotta give you that one.
And why is that? Because, as Pepe Escobar has abundantly documented, and as they have since the country’s founding, the Pakistan military is playing a double game. GAFC, Ack.
I’m betting they’re not any closer to that apology today.
So, following the recent Wikileaks release, the score is:
Critics of relying on Pakistan’s military to get us out of the Afghan trap that Brzezinski set for the Soviets, and now traps us: 92,000.
Apologists: big fat rotten goose egg.
By all means, keep that nasty information under wraps. That way, the guy who murdered little kids because he convinced himself he had no qualms can go off by himself later (when he finds out he actually did) and put a pistol in his mouth. Don’t expose it. Keep it secret. Let it fester. Don’t worry about investigating, we don’t have time for it now, and we won’t care enough later.
“…endangering the troops …”
You will agree that there is more than one way of doing that, no doubt.
What, might you consider the “initiating” way of exposing troops to danger?
What about lying, what about deceit … at the outset … at the beginning, could that be the genesis of “endangerment”?
Or, is that … “off the table”?
What about how the “war” has been prosecuted?
Any dangers there?
To the troops or the truth?
DW
Up until now, the license afforded to the troops to rape, pillage, murder, and terrorize the local population was predicated on secrecy. Who’s gonna know? It’s war.
Paradigm shift.
“Whether or not one looks at the documents–and we all should–using drones to drop bombs on small villages in a desperately impoverished country is immoral. Bottom line. Shades of Vietnam. Have we learned anything in 40 yrs???
Everyone is worrying about the US troops. Well, what about all the innocents killed by our criminal gov’t??? Who speaks for them? Who? I am sick of this blind troop worship in this country. It’s unseemly and wrong.”
Right on!
BAM! Well said, hotdog.
And when PTSD-stricken vets, brainwashed into killing machines by boot camp, traumatized by murdering kids for fun, apply those skills here at home, we’ll scream bloody murder, asking, why hasn’t something been done for our throwaway soldiers?
Do something for them?
But but but I thought war was a good thing! If it isn’t, if it’s really hell, then why do we spend so much on it? I’m confused. Mebbe I should just let the self-appointed “experts” tell me what to think. It worked so well in the run-up to invading Iraq, what could go wrong now? (/s)
Blah blah blah. It is always possible to cite scenarios where “revelations” might “compromise the mission” or “harm the troops.”
I’m with Mason: SO WHAT?
The troops made the choice to join the service, and if they are now making immoral choices those choices should be exposed. You talk from one side of your mouth about your outrage over the war, Tarheel, then spiel your “support the troops” crap out the other. As Noam Chomsky has pointed out (“Media Control” is the book), the whole notion of being opposed to war but “supporting the troops” is just propaganda which allows the Pentagon and the Obama Regime – there, I said it – to perpetuate this mess in particular and the military industrial complex in general. Take a look at the pro-war comments on mainstream news sites around this story today, Tarheel, and show me – other, perhaps, than yours here being a tad more subtle – any difference between yours and those.
As you say, war is immoral and insane. That is EXACTLY why we should stop defending it, or anyone engaged in it. If Wikileaks’ action awakens a few more people to this truth, it was a worthwhile endeavor. Simple as that.
“Nation building”?
Euphemistic bombast.
You cannot excuse what has been done.
You cannot, even, explain it.
No one can.
For it defies reason.
And humanity.
DW
Truth.
DW
Not just “will vote,” though, Siun…:
But rather, “will (apparently) vote” to suspend the rules to pass this war funding bill, before the August recess, with a two-thirds majority.
The Democrats in the House must. be. joking. They’re going to help the Party leadership suspend the rules to pass the war supplemental?!
Everyone, please understand what this means, if that vote actually proceeds this afternoon, as indicated:
Are there really not enough self-directed, principled members of our House of Representatives to block the necessary two-thirds vote required to jam this $33 billion in new deficit spending on war through the House this week as a suspension bill (a process usually reserved for naming post offices, etc.), after the way the House was (willingly?) conned on this funding vote the first time around??
Here are some of the other “suspension” bills the House plans to consider today, for comparison:
Oh. my. word. How corrupt the Democratic Party has become, and how despicably irresponsible the Party’s rank-and-file toadies in the House are proving themselves to be…
I spoke too soon. There is no “fig leaf of self-defense in our original invasion,” because Mullah Omar offered to capture and turn over Osama bin Laden before the invasion and Bush ignored him. The 9/11 planning took place in Germany and the training took place in the United States. Mullah Omar and the Taliban had nothing to do with planning 9/11 and did not know anything about it before it happened. Afghanistan is a sovereign nation and the United States had no more right to invade Afghanistan to find and kill Osama bin Laden than it would have had to invade the United Kingdom based on intelligence that he was living in London. The nation of Afghanistan and its government certainly represented no threat whatsoever to the United States.
The nation building excuse is 100% bullshit because the invasion was all about what all of our wars are about: seizing control of nations that have valuable natural resources so that U.S. corporations can steal and exploit those resources for profit without fear of reprisal, or seizing control of nations that are strategically located to build military bases. Both reasons were behind the invasion of Afghanistan. First, the U.S. wanted to secure the country so that an oil and natural gas pipeline could be built through Helmand Province and defended from attack. Second, the country is strategically located in Central Asia which is known to have vast underground resources of oil and natural gas. Billions of dollars have been paid out in bribes but not a damn thing has been done to attempt to build a nation except for the ludicrous and absurd COIN strategy that never has worked and never will work for the simple reason that no civilian population in any country in the world is going to tolerate the presence of a foreign nation’s military occupying their country. We certainly wouldn’t tolerate it here for any reason and nobody else in the world would tolerate it either.
American exceptionalism is American arrogance and selfishness. It’s disrespectful and insulting. The United States deserves to be vilified and smacked down hard everytime we assert it anywhere in the world.
Thank you, powwow.
There we have “it”.
Any questions?
There should be.
DW
Exceptionally well said.
Thank you, Mason.
DW
Who’s excusing it? I think that nationbuilding is just colonialism. And that was my point. Catching bin Laden and the al Quaeda leadership was the only reasonable justification for the war. (Leave aside that the war was stupid and the use of law enforcement would have been smart). After Torabora there was no real justification for the war, so it morphed into nationbuilding. Which fails because the Congress does not have the will to commit large amounts of foreign aid like was done under the Marshall plan. So failing to get the promised goodies, the population realizes that it is just occupied and the insurgency begins to gain strength. Should we have comitted large amounts of funds for civilian projects. No on the face of it. But once promised, you better well deliver or people get just a little pissed and you’ve definitely worn out your welcome.
Wow, Mason, I couldn’t have said it better myself. That rocks.
Learned our lessons since Vietnam? Hell, we haven’t learned them since Plymouth Rock.
(BTW, some of those massacred, according to a marriage license I have from the 18th century, were my ancestors. But I can’t say which ones, b/c Heather Flower’s tribe wasn’t noted. No surprise there, eh? Back in the day, it was said: the only good Indian is a dead Indian. News flash: we ain’t all dead yet.)
According to Exceptionalists, we’re god’s gifts to earth. How do we know? Our very own high priests told us that’s what he told them. That makes us his (that’s right: god’s got balls, and don’t you forget it) exclusive landlords. Why don’t people realize how fortunate they are, to have us bomb them back to the Stone Age in our march to full-spectrum dominance? Ingrates. (/s)
Thanks, powwow.
Thanks, Siun.
Also: DW! Methinks you’re what Melville would’ve sounded like, if he chatted via text-bound comments.
Well put.
What DW said, and the others. Concrete information, in real-time, and concrete steps to take.
Well done, powwow.
My apologies, TD, and excellent comment.
DW
Simple. as. that.
DW
The ongoing revolution is about understanding … and what one will NOT go along with …
DW
You still don’t get it, which is evident from your disrespectful and insulting tone. The Afghans didn’t ask for or want “goodies.” They want their country back and they want the United States to get the hell out and leave them alone. The only exceptionalism they see and experience is exceptional self-importance, arrogance, greed, entitlement, disregard for honor and truth, disrespect for them as human beings, and disrespect for their values and beliefs.
Why do you think so many are willing to detonate their physical existence to kill the invaders?
I can absolutely assure you that it has nothing to do with a failure to deliver promised “goodies,” and I strongly recommend you reexamine that view and reject it, or keep it to yourself because it really says everything about who and what you are and nothing about the Afghans who risk, and in some cases sacrifice their lives to be rid of the Ugly American Assholes who have invaded their sacred land.
I’m going to repeat my conclusion @ 59:
TD did kind of wander “off” once the statement, “After Torabora there was no real justification for the war …”, was made.
However, it seems more a “rationalization” than an excuse.
Spitting the very fine hairs which separate one from … the other.
DW
Pimps also … profit.
DW
Simple solution: Pack up and leave.
That would make sense, not dollars.
DW
To all you left hand towel snappers above….i salute All of you , the others not so much.
Um, much as admire your contributions, DW and TD, I disagree. There never, never was a legal justification for invading Afghanistan. There never was any intention, to fulfill the fine promises in the cover story.
It’s all about dominating Central Asian geopolitics. Brzezinski set the Afghan trap (that now so intractably traps us), and the US officially denied any involvement, just like our so-called allies, Pakistan, did–that is, until they declared victory for the policy of jacking nations to hell and back by the power of their indigenous myths, aka “the jihadi policy.”
As have been ours. As in, “Somoza may be a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch.”
Remember Reagan’s “freedom fighters,” the nun-raping, priest-murdering, village-burning butchers we funded? It’s the same damn policy, the world over.
Ever since WWII, we Americans seem to have taken for granted, that our military machine is a weather machine, and our high priests of the temples of kinetic activity are nothing more than freakin’ meteorologists.
As Matthew Hoh astonishingly said (see above @78), we must’nt attach “moral coloration” to the acts of our military, even if they shock the conscience of ordinary citizens.
WTF is up with that?!
Say it with me: it’s the mythology!
We seriously believe the cosmos to be a mechanism, and we seriously believe ourselves to be the masters of that machine, as manifested in our global empire, the sole purpose of which is full-spectrum dominance, not self-defense or nation-building or any of that fine, lofty, rhetoric in which our covert ops are couched.
Our minds are One regarding this matter.
Namaste.
Re: the “we were savagely attacked from over there” myth, see Vietnam-lite is unveiled, Pepe Escobar, Asia Times Online December 3, 2009.
Is war really the way the world is made to work? The whole idea, that Uncle Sam’s He-Man MOTU would go to Afghanistan, arrest bin Laden, bring him back to a fair and open trial, and at the same time build an entire nation on the backs of the Afghans, but in our own image (gov’t in a box, anyone?), all in a few years, and all on the cheap, should have been laughed out of public discourse.
Why do we Americans always fall for the war myths? Because that’s how we’ve come to believe the world is made to work.
Bad news, friends: If the cosmos is a mechanism, then so, too, are we, and the high priests of the temples of kinetic activity really are the MOTU, they really are perfectly justified in using our own myths, the very things that are supposed to be humanizing us, to jack us all into full-spectrum subjugation, sticking us with the bill in every freakin’ way.
So I ask you, my beloved community: Are we organisms, or are we Newtonian voodoo dolls? And what does that imply about the best way of being a human American right now?
Right back at ya, o brother my Brother!
Just checked in DKos. It’s like an alternate universe over there. Very strange. Almost like the site of a cult, which it may be morphing into.
Thanks, Siun, for a great article.
I believe the best thing we should do right now is to start doing unto others as we would have them do to unto us and fully realize that there is no difference between Afghans and ourselves. We would no more tolerate Afghanistan invading and occupying the United States than Afghanistan tolerates the United States invading and occupying their country. We are One and when we diminish them, we diminish ourselves.
It’s long past time for governments and religions to practice the Golden Rule. The United States government, the MOTU, corporate America, and the MIC are out-of-control rogues who must be stopped and We the People must assume the responsibility for stopping their irrational, insane, and out-of-control desire to enslave us in service to their craving addiction for power, wealth, and world hegemony. We have the numbers, but we lack the will to do it. To succeed, the coming revolution must be founded in community, unity of purpose, commitment to non-violence, and willingness to risk imprisonment and even death to prevail.
If all of the unemployed, who number at least 15 million, were to meet in Washington, D.C., they could shut it down and make the mountains tremble.
Well, to be fair, the “excellence” of TD’s comment ended, as I said to Mason @ 102, after TD’s statement about Torabora.
I encourage such understanding.
After that, well, hair-splitting … it is.
DW
Amen, o brother, my synonymous Brother (we share the same first name, that is).
Consonate apellation, sensibilities, and hopes.
Much there is, a universe, that we share.
Namaste
I’d say almost exactly the same thing, with a slight twist on the popular understanding of the Golden Rule.
Short, very smart-alecky Zen answer: What others? ; }
Surprise at empathic altruism comes from the unfounded assumption, evident in your accurate rendition of the pop GR, that there really are two “things” involved to begin with, whose interests are in competition for scarce resources.
That assumption implies that there’s some sort of inviolable line, eternally and absolutely dividing each of us from the other. (Not that I’m picking on you for it, it’s just a feature of expressing a multi-dimensional reality with these serial words and spaces.)
Zen masters have been asking this for centuries: where’s that line? Show it to me. Produce it. Put your finger on it. That’s why they so often sound like they’re talking crazy talk.
If there were such a line as is popularly reified, then how could even a single cell of our bodies survive even for an instant?
A more accurate interpretation of the GR, therefore, abundantly evident in every tradition of earth, goes something like: in doing unto others, ultimately, we are doing unto our selves.
Cell membranes are very selectively semi-permeable. That means, just as each of them is joined through the intercellular fluid, all sociopolitical self-other divides are relative, not absolute; imposed, not simply and naturally found in nature. We call our larger self the body politic, right?
That means, we share identity, implying relationships based in empathic, compassionate, cooperation, not antipathic, belligerent, competition. That’s so last millenium!
Being excellent to each other is natural, in this mythos, unlike treating each other like billiard balls in empty space, the behavior of which ever and always is to be determined by outside forces applying ever greater leverage.
Newton’s reduction, of all of us to cellf-imprisoned cellves in absolute vacuums (the atomic model applied to psychology), still clouds our thinking. Just look at border walls and prison cells. That’s how we conceive of our selves, too.
How a nation treats the absolutely powerless, of course, has long been held as the best measure of its commitment to justice. Isn’t that what going to war to capture bin Laden was supposed to be all about?
The jarring contrast, between our cover stories and our brutality, expresses the fact that it’s not about the justice, it’s about the dominance. Just listen to how war-god-wannabes talk about force and power projection and so on: as if war-machining our fellow earthlings into submission is actually the “smart” thing to do, because, as we all know, all they understand is force. Speak for your own cellf-imprisoned selves, pals.
How do we express non-duality in sociopolitical definitions of who we are and how best to play our role? I’m glad I asked.
Although I did it just last month, this is a perfect chance to quote my favorite poet again: me ; }.
O SISTER! MY SISTER
[First voice: Osiris speaks to his beloved Isis; second voice: Luke speaks to his sister, Leia Skywalker; third voice: we all speak with one voice; fourth voice: the self-same voice, sounding in your inner ears right now, we all share equally.]
My sister is my Goddess;
My sister is my Wife.
My sister is my Princess,
For whom
I bear All
STRIFE!
My sister is my Mother
Beyond whom
There is
no
Other.
In sum, O Sister! my Sister! my Sister is my
LIFE!
O BROTHER! MY BROTHER
[First voice: Isis speaks to her beloved Osiris; second voice: a caregiver speaks to a retired pilot; third voice: we all speak with One voice; fourth voice: the self-same voice, sounding in your inner ears right now, we all share equally.]
My brother is my god; yes,
My brother is my husband, too;
My brother is my Pilot,
For whom
I am
Ground crew.
My brother is my Pater, He
Who rhymes with Mater in water;
In sum, O Brother! my Brother! my Brother, He is
YOU!
dp
Sorry I came so late to this. I just saw the Exum piece in the NYT. What he is saying is that Afghanistan is very complicated and we should not believe anything that might conflict with his narrative of the war, even if none of it is new. But I have to wonder if we already knew this stuff then how could it conflict with Exum’s narrative unless that narrative was flawed? Also if Afghanistan is so complicated how come his narrative, and all the various Afghanistan strategies, including McChrystal’s (which Exum presumely worked on) failed to take into account all this complexity?
Exum is just another case of a lazy apologist telling us not to believe our lying eyes, you know, because he’s an expert, and well, just trust him that’s all.
Superb.
DW
Perfection, my wise friend.
Behold the new paradigm: Biocentrism.
Consciousness creates matter.
(New to the West, perhaps, but not the East. Also, it’s the core principle of the wisdom schools)
WORD! This is the most fun I’ve had since the last Siun thread.
The so-called “mind-body problem” is very much like Xeno’s stupid paradox: a result of the failure to drop a perspective assumed, not god-given.
“Consciousness creates matter.” Or, as I like to say, our intentions materialize our realities. As in, actions speak louder than words.
This is the most mysterious thing, about being a self-knowing organism: we are aware of our own roles in our own becoming.
Tell me, my erudite, eloquent friends, oh so adept at the use of these very words and spaces and squiggles, oh my: how do words really work?
Do we have to force out of these very words, right here on your screen, their inner meanings? No, of course not. Just so, as with these words, so with being human.
How do words really work? This is a lesson my inner-city “problem students” taught me, in the two years I tutored online for Brainfuse.
Words are the self-emptying vessels of mind.
Into these self-emptying vessels, I am pouring my heart-mind out to you, my beloved community; from them, just as steam from a tea cup, our shared awareness of this: our shared becoming; is arising; and out of which, which, just as sipping tea from a cup, our shared behavior is flowing like water.
“The process goes from dream to vision to reality,” ol’ Joe Campbell used to say. And in that process, as I’m sure the most astute commenters it’s ever my pleasure to engage in no-taboos-barred virtual conversation, are well aware, there’s ample opportunity to “manipulate the media narrative,” in Scott McClellan’s perfectly Skinnerian phrase for “fucking with our sense of reality itself.”
Ahem. But that’s not really why I came back. I thought for sure, my unexcelled talent, for killing conversations, had cleared the virtual room by now. Pretend you can’t see me writing this.
After a couple ice cold Henry Weinhard’s Summer Ales, this strange thought sounded in my mind’s ears. Sounds to me like a Web Age version of the Golden Rule. But then, I get a hellish feedback, from listening to the sound of my own voice, sometimes. Can I get a sound check?
[Assuming my most James Earl Jonesian voice:] Ask not with whom thou doth chat; ultimately, thou doth chat with thee.
Now, change the verb, and see how it sounds: whom thou doth bomb, thou doth sacrifice, etc.
“Ask not wth whom thou doth fuck, for thou doth fuck with thee,” I will say, sure sounds good to me.
Anyone who wants to question my concern, for the family of humanity, will have to first refute the principle of universal common descent, by which we are all kin, baby, kin, of the same universal tribe: the Tribe of the Unkowable Name.
I know the unknowable name, but I can’t tell you because then I’d have to kill you.
O brother, my Brother Mason! Go right ahead, make my day into eternity ; }.
Riddle me this, my fierce fellow firedog: When a light goes out on its own, or is put out, where does the light go?
Our candles and bulbs will surely burn out, but the Light goes on forever.
Reminds me of the death poem of a certain mythical desert sage: “If you strike me down, I’ll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”
(That’s probably what’s keeping Julian Assange, among many others, alive right now, come to think of it.)