Andy, Lars, Welcome to the Lake.

Dankine, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.

Hi Bev, Hi Dankin,
I am really excited to do this gig.
Andy

Welcome to Firedoglake – glad you could join us!

Thanks for having us! I am looking forward to this.

Good afternoon Andy and Lars and welcome to FDL this afternoon.

OK, so here’s my “glaring omission” question/comment. In the mid ’60s, the NFL specifically and American football in general started having place kickers use the “soccer style” kick rather than the “conventional style” straight ahead kick. The first one doing this was Pete Gogolak who was soon joined by his brother Charlie (natives of Hungary) and Jan Stenerud (Native of Norway on a ski-jumping scholarship to Montana State).

Since then, the soccer style kick has taken over leaving the “conventional kick” to go the way of the drop kick.

It just seemed that such an impact from soccer on American football warranted at least a paragraph or two of discussion in a book on the various sports language and impacts.

Andy, Lars thank you for being here. What did think of the World Cup?

Greetings, thanks for coming

Did you focus on male sports, or did you get into women’s sports?

True enough.
I remember PETE GOGOLAK and if you recall we mention TONI FRITSCH who played for RAPID WIEN and then kicked for the DALLAS COWBOYS.
This is a matter technique which is perfectly fine but NOT one of culture.
In other words, this would have warranted more attention had we been more concerned with THE WAY THESE games are played.
The equivalent would have been to write about how the DUNK arrived in Europe.

There is a bit of discussion of women’s sports and as I note in the intro, it is interesting how women’s soccer took root and has grown larger in those countries such as the US, China, and the Koreas where soccer is not the dominant sport rather than in the countries where soccer has been the dominant sport.

Lars or Andy, care to elaborate further?

Bev, I thought it was terrific that the World Cup took place in South Africa even though the economic impact, as so often with sports, is controversial. It was very important culturally, and overdue in that respect. The best team won-Spain-, though the quality of the play was overall disappointing. But that is also normal at events like these.

Eliott, yes, women’s sports plays a big role. We have an entire chapter on the feminization of global sports cultures, focusing on women’s soccer.

We have an ENTIRE chapter on women’s soccer in particular.
We have a DETAILED account of how women sports have made MEGA headway on the playing field but are still very different from the men’s games in terms of being followed.
We differentiate between FOLLOWING and DOING.
We are interested much more in what folks FOLLOW rather than what they DO.
I have so much more to tell you here but I cannot type fast enough.

Well, it is also an area where a fairly large number of folks born outside the US have come in and made an impact but fair enough (a quick check of der google had it at more than 70 kickers born in soccer dominant countries who have played in the NFL)

LOVED the World Cup — watched every second of all the games.
But there were also lots of problems in my view which are inherent to SOCCER’s arcane rulings and governance.
Great piece in the business section of today’s NEW YORK TIMES on how the game COULD be reformed but — alas — will not.
Lars and I wrote a much-circulated OP ED piece on this

This is precisely the point—in those countries where soccer is marginal or at least non-hegemonic women’s soccer could flourish because, among other things, it did not face the condescending criticism by the mainstream, it didn’t have to face a cultural uphill battle. It could develop on its own.

You discuss the various youth soccer programs in the US and their size. Do you have any comparisons in those against the overall youth populations of the US (as compared in size to other countries?)

Do you see the Youth soccer programs as slowly laying foundations for future US following of the sport since it is laying a foundation where the “language” of soccer will be spoken and understood by a larger group than it is today?

Interesting that you pick the kickers — far and away the most culturally marginalized players in American Football.
Indeed, many “REAL” football players do not regard kickers as football players but as odd and sissies and such.
So it is interesting to note that their marginalization also pertains to their being form abroad.
Our very own wonderful punter here at the University of Michigan — ZOLTAN MESKO, now drafted by the New England Patriots — was born in the same Hungarian-speaking Romanian town as I was, the town is called TIMISOARA in Romanian and TEMESVAR in Hungarian.

Indeed, apart from the ongoing problem of racism, soccer’s (and the World Cup’s) problem is the officiating system–established by FIFA–needs a complete overhaul and arrive in the 21st century. We need to introduce the available technology. It’s frustrating to see games decided, again and again, by referees’ errors. That needs to be fixed and was certainly a blemish.

As a counterpoint, you discuss the role of the US colleges on Women’s basketball and the WNBA yet a lot of times, the women actually receive better pay in Europe than in the US for basketball. Is this more of an appreciation of the play or does it tie back to basketball not being THE sport in many of these countries?

that is a GREAT question:
No country has as many organized youth soccer players as does the United States, reaching into the 15 million category by many measures.
But it is ORGANIZED soccer.
Where soccer is what we call HEGEMONIC SPORTS CULTURE, soccer is not learned in organized structures — or not exclusively in those — but also on the streets, on play grounds on the beach.
We have some data on the number of youth soccer players in Germany as well.

I believe it was Alex Karras who mocked the kickers for their language and lack of understanding of football (especially back in the early days of the soccer style kicker – many of the “conventional style” kickers up to that point had kicking as an additional duty – thinking players like George Blanda ann Lou Groza specifically but there were many others.)

Absolutely, these programs–and the fact that so many young Americans play soccer today–are very important and already have their impact. Fly over America, look at the big cities, and see how many soccer fields there are. There were virtually none 20, 30 years ago, and now they are everywhere. The Hispanic influence will also matter. Yet, again, it will take a long time to challenge America’s hegemonic sports culture, precisely because of the huge difference between what you are playing and what you are watching. You may PLAY soccer but you still WATCH baseball, basketball or football.

and that would be whee the traditional US “sandlot” games of baseball, football, and basketball come into play.

It is not that the European women’s basketball leagues provide BETTER pay than the WNBA, it is just that they provide it over a longer season that actually extends from the fall to the spring so that one CAN — and does — play both in the WNBA and the European leagues.
The reason that this is the case is because these women’s basketball teams are part of European clubs that have MANY sports — women’s basketball among them.

For what it’s worth, there are a lot of folks who play/played baseball and basketball who really don’t care to watch the games on TV. :})

Indeed, which once again proves the claim about their historical marginality. The soccer style succeed, and that’s that, but this is, again, a marginal aspect of football.

Well I was thinking here of how the top pay for the WNBA players is just over $110K for the season versus players getting a $2 to $4Million for the Euro seasons – at least the top level players anyway.

Exactly — it is the SANDLOT play that defines CULTURE in our view, or MASS culture.
As long as American soccer remains MAINLY the purview of middle class suburban kids, the game will not produce inspirational FIRST_TOUCH players as exist in countries where soccer is played EVERYWHERE.
As to your point about Alex Karras — spot on.
I remeber seeing GEORGE BLANDA in his latter days: A kicker and a QB

the top lever WNBA players make a lot more than 110,000

heh, I’d forgotten about him

Andy & Lars, thanks for being here.
”
As someone who was, one my say, “forced into soccer when my daughter started playing it at age 4, I’ve found it fascinating to watch the growth of the women’s game. A couple of points. She is playing in college right now (on a partial athletic scholarship) and it is unlikely that she would have played another sport where she could have competed at the collegiate level.

Two of her high school teammates are currently playing for the Mexican national team which, until a few years ago, lacked any support from the Mexican populace. It seems like Mexico looked to the south and discovered the popularity of the Brazilain womens team and realized that womens sports are not antithetical to a Hispanic culture that previously looked down on women in athletics.

Any thoughts?

No question, that’s true. Still, the difference is remarkable only when it comes to soccer as a non-hegemonic sport. There you have more kids playing the soccer than any other sport, but few are watching it (with the exception of the World Cup and, to a limited extent, the Champions League where the best of the best compete). But of course, there will always be practitioners of baseball or basketball who are disinterested in watching games, in watching the pros or college sports, for that matter.

you are probably far too young to remember Karras.

Now with Baseball (my most favorite of sports), you touch on the worldwide impacts in the Caribbean, South America, and Far East. As I think about the baseball playing countries, am I correct in these are also not countries where soccer is dominant? That is, Brazil and Argentina are soccer dominant cultures but others such as Venezuela, Cuba, Dominican Republic seem to be more baseball centric. Or am I misreading things here?

(tv:)

Lots of thoughts.
Alas, alas, the women’s game STILL has very little support in Mexico.
Ditto in Brazil. The ONLY time that there is any support for women’s soccer in these places is when their NATIONAL TEAM plays — and that is merely by dint of NATIONAL IDENTITY and support.
As we show in our book, the women’s game flourished ONLY in countries where the men’s game was marginal at best: The United States, the two Koreas, China, the Scandinavian countries.
Women could enter this MACHO world precisely because their men did not much care.
This has changed recently, esepcially with BRAZIL and GERMANY but, there, too, I have gone to games and I do not wanna tell you what comments are made CONSTANTLY during the games.
We discuss this in our book.

TBogg, this is a great observation. Indeed, there’s some movement, not just in Mexico. Women’s soccer IS gaining respect in various “soccer countries”, where soccer is the hegemonic sport. They have traditionally been lagging behind, and Brazil was, to some extent, exceptional. We talk in our book about the different development in different countries—think of Germany, which has become such a power house in women’s soccer, but it also took a while to gain some recognition by society, and by Germany’s soccer authorities. At any rate, it’s great to see that new enthusiasm in Mexico.

I know that several baseball players from the Caribbean area, as well as some American players, attribute their superior foot skills (speaking specifically about infielders) from playing soccer.

you are not missing a thing at all.
Indeed, you get the REAL gist of our book.
We argue that IF and WHEN a sport becomes HEGEMONIC CULTURE by the 1920s, 1930s at the very latest, the occupancy of the SPORTS SPACE is complete and a newcomer will have it very hard.
So MOST of Latin America is soccer cultured.
But the Caribbean is NOT, that is baseball cultured with Mexico having both though soccer being the more dominant of the two.

Actually, they make much more overseas but the top salaries of the WNBA are $101K per season per here and here.

Of course, some of the women do have endorsement contracts. But they are forced into playing almost year round between the overseas clubs and WNBA

I assume the comments are the sexist variants on the racism and anti-semitism you mention as being so strong in the lower levels of Euro soccer leagues?

Welcome Andrei & Lars. Thanks for hosting, Dakine01.
Bev, as always…
I wanted to pick up laterally on dakine01′s point about place-kickers: As much as it pains me to admit it, the soccer-style place-kicking seemed to me to have been adopted because it offers advantages to kickers over the straight-on style – much as the Fosbury Flop (which I don’t regard as a socio-cultural phenomenon) revolutionized the high-jump (that event is now exclusively dominated by Fosbury Floppers, or variants thereof).
I never thought of it as anything but a competitive necessity.
But reading dakine01′s comment at 12:

a quick check of der google had it at more than 70 kickers born in soccer dominant countries who have played in the NFL

I am forced to reconsider…

that is FASCINATING and I have never heard this.
What I DO know is that certain basketball players, like HAKEEM OLAYJUWAN (forgive the spelling errors) certainly attributed their foot skills to playing soccer.
So did KOBE BRYANT who played soccer while in Italy.
Also, European hockey players who played soccer attribute a certain cross-referencing as it were.

Have not read your book, but might have to, now.

My question (haven’t read the comments here either, so please forgive if covered already): How does the modern-day Olympic movement, with its global commercialism and nationalistic triumphalism, fit into your Gaming the World theory? It seems to me that the Olympics are the 800-pound gorilla in world sporting events, while the World Cup and others maintain a purity and legitimacy long gone from the non-free-speech zones our Quadrennial Masters impose on athletes.

Thanks for chatting at FDL today, I think you’ve sold a book to me….

Exactly—the point is that in these countries you had to start at ZERO in terms of cultural recognition. And this is, of course, totally limited to the national teams. Even with respect to Germany’s successful womens’ team, you still have to offer free tickets to fill a stadium. But it’s good to see that there’s more space for it than in the past.

Yes, you are right, the comments ARE the sexist variants of the racist and anti-semitic ones discussed in the book.

Ah, that would make a bit of sense as the double play needs would mean a need to know proper footwork.

I’ve seen first-hand some of the growth internationally as she has played against visiting teams from Japan, Mexico, and Canada. These were club teams made up of players from 12 to 16. Her current college team includes three players from Guam, although I can’t speak to the sports culture there.

Interesting that American football was mentioned above. Her soccer skills resulted in her being the first “girl” to play high school football for a Catholic school team in San Diego. Previously no female athlete had ever been given the opportunity to try out for one of the boys sports.

As I mention in the intro, that was probably the most surprising thing to me as we in the US are so very used to being beaten up in a lot of ways for the long time racism in sports yet to read how the US actually is a leader in stopping the overt hate talk where it is seemingly condoned at all levels in many of the European countries.

Teddy, I am not so sure that dichotomy is sustainable…There’s a lot of money involved in soccer as well, and in many “soccer countries” the World Cup is MUCH BIGGER than the Olympics. In countries such as Italy, Brazil or Germany, there are 100,000s at public viewing event and everyone watches the games. It can’t get bigger than that, and it involves–like or not–a lot of commercialism.

Dear Teddy,
thanks for your comment.
Alas, the minute the CINCINNATI RED STOCKING became the first professional sports team of ANY kind, this purported purity in sports never existed.
I would argue that it did not even exist before that.
So yes, we DO discuss the tremendous importance of the World Cup and other global events, but we do not see them as “impure” by dint of their being commercial.

Kudos to your daughter.
this is great.
I have been to many women’s soccer and baksetball games and will be going to the women’s World Cup next summer in Germany.
And we are VERY honored to have the legendary BRANDI CHASTAIN endorse our book. She LOVED IT!!!!

A friend of my daughter (with whom she played Pony League baseball) was an excellent soccer player before fully committing to baseball in his last two years in high school (which happens a lot here) was just drafted out of Stanford as a second baseman. The reason, his speed and his defense, attributed in many ways to…soccer.

Indeed, there’s still a substantial gap. In some European countries, the clubs and authorities (and part of the public, such as anti-racist initiatives), have taken action, in others the situation is quite nasty. But even in those countries where racism is more and more eliminated from the top leagues (such as England & Germany), racism and anti-Semitism (and violence) find refuge in the lower divisions of European soccer.

The book does cover and discuss the “Olympianization” of sports but along the lines of how folks look to the Olympic sports as the special every four years chance to be nativist “We’re #1 USA USA USA” style rather than how the various sports are embedded in the cultural soul

I know that this will be very strange to some of you, but the UNITED STATES has been the leader in many progressive things in the world, like introducing structural changes by law that assist the handicapped, on and on.
And in race relations, there has been a particularly important positive development in sports.
Ditto via Title IX in gender issues.
The United States is not as reactionary and evil as you might think.
This is not to exonerate some of the terrible things that happen here.
But in the world of public discourse and what is acceptable and what is not, the United States is WAY AHEAD of most countries.

EVERY country is what you call NATIVIST in its support of its team in the Olympics.
When I was on a book tour through Europe in the 2000 Olympics, I saw a DIFFERENT event in Italy from that in Germany, from that in Austria, from that in Holland etc. etc.

i’ve never been much of a sports fan — fun for occasional outings but i’ve tended to think of sports as trival when it comes to ‘the important stuff’.

i’m intrigued by the premise of this book — thank you for giving me a new perspective on the impact that sports has that i had never even considered.

I liked how you addressed the sport development in the US through colleges and the sham of “amateurs” with American football and basketball still trying to maintain the fiction where baseball, having developed outside of the colleges, was a bit more realistic (as the “everyman” sport)

Yes, in our book “Olympianization” refers to the quadrennial American interest in soccer—during the World Cup, quite a few people watch who don’t care about watching soccer, or taking any interest in the sport, between World Cup events. That’s similar to the sports featured by Olympic events. Few people who follow the gymnastics events at Olympic Games, and American atheletes participating, care much about that sport at any other time.

I haven’t gotten into your book as of yet (my wife is reading it), but I was wondering if you address the the old boys club that heads up organizations such as the Olympic committee or FIFA? I’m not entirely convinced that they are as interested in growing their sports internationally as much as developing their own personal feifdoms.

Any thoughts?

What we mean by OLYMPIANIZATION of soccer is that it has become a quadrennial cultural event in the United States via the WORLD CUP every four years with very few folks caring as to what happens on a regular day.
I mean who really follows the New England Revolution playing the Columbus Crew?
More than did 10 year ago, for sure, but still not a large number of people.
On the other hand more than 20 MILLION people watched the WORLD CUP final two weeks ago. That is what we mean by the OLYMPIANIZATION of Soccer in America

Oh without a doubt, Title IX was huge in the development of womens sports programs across the US. My sister and female cousins were pre-Title IX and were discouraged from even running track while at least one of my post Title IX younger cousins wound up on a basketball scholarship after having been all state in soccer and basketball both

My dear Suzanne,
thanks very much for your kind comment.
MANY things that one assumes to be trivial are anything but.
How can something be trivial if BILLIONS of people follow it with a passion as they do sports?
It might be TRIVIAL in the deep sense of that word but we still gotta understand it.

By the way, Contador won the Tour, as expected. Where does pro cycling fit in your examination of the world of sport?

Thanks a lot, Suzanne. I think it is important to look at the many facets of sports culture. Many intellectuals, especially in Europe, have looked down on sports as nothing but a capitalist leisure industry. There’s just much more to it. Sports are crucial in generating identities, local and global ones. But sports also play a big role in generating equality claims, and recognition of diversity. That is particularly true in the age of globalization. Think of Kobe Bryant–he’s now arguably the most popular guy in China, a country where no one even played basketball 30 years ago. Or think of a kid growing up in rural Nebraska, likely to root for the Nebraska football team and its many black players.

First of all, many thanks to your wife for reading our book.
We are honored and delighted.
No, we do not spend any time looking at the INTERNAL structures of the IOC or FIFA because there are GREAT books out that do this and also because we are interested in what folks FOLLOW rather than what organizations and their leaders do.
What you say about these guys up in these leadership positions is not incorrect. But that does not diminish the powerful attractiveness of the product over which they lord.

This leads me to another question: You discuss how US colleges and things like March Madness, while huge sports related activities in the US, don’t get much play in Europe. Since the colleges function to an extent as a feeder to the Professional sports of the Big Four, could the lack of interest in them be associated in a fashion similar to how the lower level of soccer clubs in Europe generally don’t get much if any coverage in the US?

That is, we may know the names and even a couple of players for Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, Real Madrid, etc but would have no clue whatsoever about lower level clubs, even if they are associated with the more well known clubs?

I loved playing Lacrosse in college; it suited me as a violinist (upper body and both arms.) Do women around the globe participate in this sport, or is it men only?

Cycling in our scheme is part of HEGEMONIC SPORTS CULTURE in places like France, Italy, Holland, Belgium, Spain.
What we DO discuss in the book is what one could here call the GREG LeMond effect, meaning that in ANY country when its countryman (or woman) succeeds in a sport that was not culturally important to that country, the sport suddenly receives a BIG BOOST precisely by dint of nationalism and national allegiance which is nothing good or bad — it just exists.
So Greg LeMond and then Lance Armstrong have OLYMPIANIZED the sport of cycling in the United States meaning that we (I mean not sports nuts like myself who follows everything in cycling as well)only follow the TOUR DE FRANCE but little else. I mean how many folks really follow the GIRO D”ITALIA or the VUELTA A ESPANIA.

Oh boy, many thoughts on that! The old boys clubs, FIFA and the IOC, are a HUGE problem. We only briefly touch on this in our book but this is worth mentioning. They prevent reforms and have an enormous power, and this power is not accountable to anyone. The reform of these international,indeed global organizations is overdue. The whole world is seeking more transparency, and we have emerging global publics but they have a hard time reaching to these institutions. I think the unwillingness to become more transparent and more democratic is also displayed, among other things, in the unwillingness to change soccer’s officiating system and make it more transparent.

I think that the leadership of the IOC and FIFa are at times detrimental to the attractiveness of the sport. Case in point: the recent World Cup which was overshadowed by the poor officiating.The failure to address the problems in a timely and quite frankly honest manner affects how the uninitiated view the sport. That in turn affects growth.

TITLE IX in my opinion has to be viewed as one of THE most monumental progressive pieces of legislation anywhere in the world.
Just tremendous and a REAL game changer, believe me.
IT allowed women to enter a world that was COMPLETELY off limits to them, in which they were ridiculed and demeaned and simply did not exist.
NO LONGER!!!!!
Just amazing!!!!
A REAL game changer to use an appropriate sports metaphor here.

As a HUGE LaCross lover, I assure you — alas — that it is one of the many PURELY North-American based sports.
It is not played by men or women anywhere outside of North America, I mean in a regular way.
In today’s globalized world, you might run across a LaCross game on the beaches of France, but that is not what I mean here.
Indeed, LACross is a great example of how — DESPITE globalization — LOCAL customs not only fail to die but actually flourish.
This is one of THE main points of our book.

To be honest, most people apart from dedicated aficionados have much interest, or know much, about lower division soccer in Europe, either. In fact, twenty years ago most people in Europe didn’t know much about even the top leagues from another country in Europe. What you may know is what your local or amateur club is doing, though if the club is not successful, many people do not care, either. But it’s true, of course, that there are different levels involved, and in the US people–even connoisseurs–may only know the “best of the best” of soccer, whereas in Europe people live and breathe the sport.

Andy and Lars, you mention early on how so much of sports language, especially from Baseball, has penetrated deeply within the US culture. Are there examples of this from soccer penetrating the the other languages? Or is it just baseball and the US?

Fascinating stuff about the relationship between colleges and the pros.
Our point here is this:
The College game PRECEDED the pros in football in the United States and even in basketball if we take the pros in that sport really to have only come into their own in the NBA that was founded as the BAA in 1946.
So while you are right that the CURRENT link between the colleges and the pros is something like a minor league to the major league,
this is historically not the case and uniquely
American.
European soccer has a structure like baseball: nobody other than the real insiders know the minor league players and follow them.

Totally agreed! That’s exactly true. Only huge public pressure and campaigns around the world now made FIFA at least CONSIDER some changes, though I doubt the introduction of video replay will be part of those reforms.

AS I think about it, that is also true here in the US with minor league baseball as an example. Even as a fan of the Cincinnati Reds, I’m hard pressed to name all of their minor league teams

Don’t get me started on FIFA’s leadership.
And the officiating was abysmal in many cases.
But what is fascinating about soccer and so prima facie evidence for its amazing power and attractiveness is that DESPITE FIFA’s blunders and arrogance, the game’s popularity is growing by leaps and bounds.

No, though nothing beats the influence of baseball on American language (and culture), there’s a lot of soccer language that has become part of quotidian culture in countries where soccer is the hegemonic sport. There are abundant examples of this. However, for the longest time sports, even soccer, was less “legitimate” in Europe than sports in the US. This is why some of that cultural influence in the everyday world is somewhat belated. Things are different now.

you guys ask great questions.
There is NO equivalent penetration of sports terms into regular languages ANYWHERE comparable to baseball’s into American English.
In my earlier sports book OFFSIDE, I give examples of this that count into the dozens and then some.
yes, there are a few soccer expressions in German and French that I know and a few in British English, ditto with some cricket expressions, but nothing like the richness of baseball terms in the American vernacular.
And there are many more baseball terms than football or basketball terms.
Again, take a look at OFFSIDE for a list of these.

Well, it took quite a long time to convince the authorities in MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, and college sports that instant replay in any way was a viable consideration (and then constraints were and are placed on the use). FIFA will just have to get over themselves and realize when “so much” is riding on the sports, it’s better to get it correct than to have the overall embarrassment of the poor officiating we saw this year.

Indeed–soccer is globally successful despite FIFA and its leadership not because of it.

Exactly our point: if you as a MEGA REDS fan do not know who is playing in the REDS’s single and double and tripple A clubs, then who would?

The Reds A-Ball team used to be the Potomac Cannons, until Washington brought in the Montreal Expos in 2005.

One huge difference between FIFA and MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL.
These latter leagues do not have to account for their actions to anybody.
they change rules constantly — from season to season.
This is NOT the case with FIFA because it is the PINNACLE of more than 200 country federations all with their own politics and pressures and interests.

I guess it is probably a good sign that people were outraged by the officiating. No reponse at all would have been a bad sign.

Having said that, Sepp Blatter is a detriment to the sport, his attitude towards the womens game is straight out of the sixties (tighter shorts! low-cut jerseys!), and he represents an old guard who has made a kingdom out of a sport.

Moving on…Ryder Cup. Should anyone really care?

Very true. And the problem will get bigger as soccer has become so much faster and more athletic. That is the main reason why we have more and more errors, while simultaneously the whole world is watching through the lens of more and more cameras, and in HD. This huge gap needs to be narrowed. At this point, even everyone in the stadium knows when a decision is wrong, and the only guy left in the dark is the guy that counts—the referee. It really hurts the game. But yes, it also took MLB too long to recognize the problem.

I truly dislike Sepp Blatter for LOTS of reasons.
But I actually disagree with you pertaining to the women’s game.
Regardless what his attitude is to the weird dress code of the women, the guy has actually been a HUGE proponent of women’s soccer.
Blatter has TWO very important redeeming qualities in my book:
His unconditional support of the women’s game against MASSIVE enmity and resistance by much of the MACHO football establishment;
AND
his support for the World Cup in Africa and his support for football in Africa and the developing world in general.
Trust me, these were not easy things to push through.
I care about the RYDER CUP immensely, but then again I care about ANY and ALL sports immensely.

Andy, we were talking pre-Salon about the impacts of Baseball in other countries.

You touched on the Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese players who have played MLB. You also touch on how players such as Pele, David Beckham, and Thierry Henry have come into the US sports scene although after they might have started the downside of their careers.

In most cases, the Japanese ballplayers are blocked from playing MLB until they’ve played in the Japanese leagues for years.

Do you think there will be a time in the next couple of decades where the sports like Soccer or baseball are so global that teams are bidding for players in their primes rather than on the back side of the career? That is, a Pele or Thierry playing MLS sooner rather than later? (I’m thinking along the lines of how the AFL and ABA were upstart leagues that challenged the status quo rather than the apparent “gentlemens’ agreements” that seem to prevail today)

Absolutely, the time is NOW!!!!!
Just look at the NBA.
Recruiting and drafting players when they are PRE their prime.
And ditto for the world of European soccer which drafts players PRE their prime.
MLS would LOVE to do the same but it is not a PREMIER LEAGUE so the very best wanna play in the top leagues in Europe and not MLS.

Take away headline grabbers like Tiger Woods and golf is just a bunch of country club types vs other country club types. Ryder Cup is the same taken to an international level. Our rich jerks vs their rich jerks.

From a European ve USA! USA! standpoint, kind of hard to root for.

Yeah, that is a fairly new phenomenon as you note the lack of impact of a Detlef Schrempf (or Uwe Blab) as compared to Dirk Nowitski.

And it was the Arvydas Sabonis types who probably could have been an NBA superstar if he’d been allowed to play NBA early in his career rather than being blocked by the USSR sports federations (if my memory is serving me correctly)

In the case of MLS, that really depends on its development, which is difficult to predict. In our book, we describe the many things MLS has to cope with in its attempt to gain some part of the well-established American sports space. However, there are also indicators for some progress. At any rate, we cannot compare Pele and Cosmos with Beckham and Henry. Both actually came while they are NOT at the end of their careers, which makes this quite big. Henry, for example, is only 32 and has ONLY played with top clubs on the highest level.

A MLB that sets up facilities in the Dominican for teenagers will next start courting talent in Asia before the Japanese league gobbles them up.

Count on it.

Andy or Lars, do you have any ideas why it was the US who has established the various Halls of Fame for sports rather than other countries? Is it because of the global nature of soccer that no one country had a corner on the market of great players? (I know you mention this early in the book)

I do not quite know what to say to such a comment.
ALL of these mega athletes are “rich jerks” to use your language.
I am not sure why they have to be stigmatized and insulted in such a way, especially since quite a few golfers — like MANY other best-of-the best athletes hail from lower strata and are anything BUT rich when they started out.
Why are they jerks???
Why berate athletes all the time?
Why begrudge their money that they earn by VALORIZING (to use the appropriate Marxist temrinology here) their amazingly rare talents?
Just my view.
Nobody should be called a jerk if he or she has not harmed you in any way.

That’s so interesting, and I didn’t know that. It’s such a total body workout requiring hand/feet coordination, and I’m surprised. My team nor I were terribly good, but we made a decent showing and enjoyed ourselves. There were times when I thought it was more than I could do, and I found the other team scarey. The point was that I came to appreciate sports and didn’t get hurt. Good times. I’m so grateful for Title 1X. Thanks for your book and your reply.

Yeah I think the Red Sox have already signed a kid out of Japan who chose the US leagues rather than Japanese leagues.

Fascinating point about HALLS OF FAME.
Uniquely American.
Do not exist anywhere else — or did not until some sports now have started to copy them.
Thus, for example, there now exists an INTERNATIONAL CRICKET HALL OF FAME.

Be grateful and proud of TITLE IX
An amazing piece of legislation.
And ALL sports require an AMAZING level of coordination at ALL levels, that of the PIKER level where I have existed all my life. all the way to the best of the best.
That is why I am in such awe of all these athletes who perform something at SUCH a high level.
And what makes sports SO wonderful is that they are perhaps THE most meritocratic venue and structure in any endeavor.

Yeah, it’s just been an American tradition. I have no idea why it took so long for others to even think about starting to pick it up. We’ll see. In soccer, of course, you have two different tracks to honor players—the national federations and international ones honor the best players of each year. That has become more important. And more and more clubs have started to build “museums” to honor players and their achievements. But it’s nothing like the HALL OF FAME tradition.

You also discuss another uniquely American component with the multi-sport athlete that does not occur that much in Europe. Any particular reasons why or is it just the four sport culture that lends itself to participating in more than one area?

Very simple indeed:
America speaks FOUR sports languages most other countries only one.
A kid grows up here and learns to speak all four.
He — or she — excels at all four.
Then, as he or she grows up further, she starts to specialize but the most AMAZING top-notch athletes remain multilingual at the very top level all the way to their pinnacle.
Thus, there exist a few folks like Bo Jackson or Deon Sanders or Tom Glavine or Dave Winfield a few others who COULD — and DID — play and perform in two languages so to speak at the very peak of their art.
This does not exist anywhere else. We mention Denis Compton in England who played football for Arsenal and was a good circket player for Middlesex.
A VERY rare person indeed.

A great many of the American golfers on the tour come from upper class families who belong to country clubs where their skills can be nurtured in a way that the lower and middle class can’t due to the cost of the sport. It is a rich mans sport before you start playing, not after you become successful playing. You see fewer and fewer Lee Trevino’s every day.

I don’t begrudge them the money they make on the tour but the country club, by virtue of its exclusivity breeds a mindset that is, shall we say, socially olympian. The same can be said for the wealthy people like Larry Ellison who have all but destroyed sailing and the Americas Cup.

The four sports culture and the fact that people grow into it is definitely the key difference. But we do mention a few of the few European cases of cross-over. The local hero of my youth, Borussia Dortmund’s prolific goal scorer Manfred Burgsmueller, was certainly often a game-changer in his very later career as a football player. Unfortunately, in spite of its relative grassroots popularity in a country like Germany, pro football did not survive.

Well, there was Jan Stenerud who was on a ski-jumping scholarship before becoming a NFL Hall of Fame place kicker. :})

For the record, I tend to place folks who show more than one sporting ability much higher on a listing of great athletes than I do those who show only mastery of one aspect of sports

Well, for my money that depends how good you are in what you are doing. Is it better being mediocre or even good in two sports rather than being one of the best in one?

As we come to the end of this interesting international Book Salon,

Andy, Lars, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with is discussing your new book, and sports.

Dankine, Thank you for Hosting this great Book Salon.

Everyone, if you would like more information:
Andy’s website
Lar’s website
Dakine’s website

Thanks all.

Wealthy people have ALWAYS played a key role on the ownership side of sports but not as a form of ECONOMIC capital — in other words not to make money — but to acquire SOCIAL capital, to have a measure of prestige and attention and such.
As we argue in the book, the economic dimension of these teams is minute.
Yes, the Yankees are alleged to be worth 1,6 billion bucks.
That is a pittance compared to the value of thousands and thousands of companies in the world.
None of these teams — not the Dallas Cowboys, not Manchester United, not the New York Yankees, the three most expensive teams in the world — come near to making any FORTUNE 500.
so these entities are not crucial by dint of their economic but their social power.

Thanks everybody!!

Well, I tend to think of folks like Bo Jackson or a Jim Brown (one of the greatest lacrosse players of all time as well as arguably the greatest NFL running back of all time) as the top of the pile of two sports athletes.

Thanks so much to you and Lars for being here. It was a pleasure.

Thank you to Andy and Lars for the afternoon here and many thanks to all the folks who have joined in with comments and questions

My dear Bev,
thanks VERY MUCH for having us in the SALON.
It was our pleasure and privilege to have been given a forum to present our ideas and our book GAMING THE WORLD: HOW SPORTS ARE RESHAPING GLOBAL POLITICS AND CULTURE published by Princeton University Press.
And one more thing:
my personal website’s address is:
http://www.andymarkovits.com
And there exists a FRIENDS OF GAMING THE WORLD on FACEBOOK

That is, indeed, one of the arguments of our book–we cannot understand the significance, meaning, or success of sports by focusing only on their economic context. It’s not the economy! It’s in so many ways a matter of social and cultural capital and impact. In history, BTW, sports (especially professional sports) have received spite from the upper classes and working class activists.

Thanks so much Bev, for having us. It really was a pleasure—what fun!
Lars

Here’s my website
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/lars.rensmann/home

And don’t forget our book

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9157.html

My favorite person ever: Jackie Robinson.
Courage, Character, and Talent.