Eli!

Egreg!

Jesus preached peace, yet the GOP is the party of torture and war and guns everywhere for everyone.

New Testament – what’s that?

I honestly think they must all have some kind of special abridged version of the Bible that just skips right from the Old Testament to Revelations.

Thank you, Eli. Well written.

It’s called Calvinism.

Mostly I think they misunderstood that the words printed in red in their King James were the ones they were supposed to pay special attention to…not the ones they were being warned about.

Thanks. I’ve written variations on this theme at my place, but I’m not sure whether I’ve done so here. It’s something that I guess I have kind of a morbid fascination with.

Tell it!!

The Christians driving the Republican Party are the American Herodian Sanhedrin, dedicated to preserving Herod’s sellout to Rome.

I think they bear an uncanny resemblance to the Pharisees, actually.

Even good ole “rise of capitalism” Calvin wouldn’t claim these Republican nutcakes.

That too. The “publican” party.

Supply-side Jesus rules, Eli. Haven’t you learned that yet? Jesus, man, get with it for chrissake!

I suspect that inside every republican tax-avoider is a Montgomery Burns just itching to yell “Release the Hounds” on the rest of us. Right after they bring back debtor’s prisons, work houses and all the rest of that good Xtian stuff.

The Republicans may be right when they crow that America is a Christian nation, but they really should hope they’re wrong.

Not so much. Juan Cole has a great post up refuting/repudiating the concept that this is a Christian nation. It’s great!

money quote:

The US Senate, full of founding fathers, and the Adams government, approved the Treaty with Tripoli (now Libya) of 1797, which included this language:

“As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

The treaty is important for showing the mindset of the fashioners of the American system. ‘

Game. Set. Match

Oh, my comment just got disremembered. I’ll say it again.
Jesus came to serve, not to be used.
I love it when thread titles get people riled up. Not surprised.

You are probably rignt.

It’s not a game.

Well, my point is that if America were really a nation dominated by actual New Testament Christian values, the GOP would be lucky to win any elections at all.

It was either this or something like “Why Do Republicans Hate Jesus?”

Jesus came to serve, not to be used.

Amen. Well said.

That might have been more to the point. Not every one gets the nuance. I could be wrong.

The wingnuts need to read the Beatitudes over and over. They could learn how to live.

Great quote from the Adams government. Ann Coulter may cry at seeing that.

Selah.

One of the few intelligent things my son ever said: What does Christianity have to do with Christ anyhow.

see #30

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” – Mahatma Gandhi

There’s also a fair number of Priests and Levites to go with the Pharisees.

It certainly isn’t and the founding fathers knew it. They were utterly intentional about religious tolerance and inclusion.

And yes, Eli, if this nation was living out the values that Jesus taught, which he learned as a good Jewish boy, we would be a totally different place and there would not be a rabid republican party.

I spent 4 years in seminary hearing the phrase “the Christian thing to do” or “It was Christian of him” and I spent those 4 years asking those who voiced those words how a person’s actions were Christian rather than Buddhist or Hindu or Jewish or Pagan. I never got a good answer. And that was a setting where my fellow students should have been able to articulate a difference if there had been one.

I continue to challenge people on this when I think those people either ought to know better or if I think they need to really think about what they said. Sadly too many people say it and even after thinking about it they would be clueless.

Where did you attend Seminary?

Here’s something to cheer you up.

Eli, two years ago I would have agreed with everything you say. I still agree with you, but today’s democrat party isn’t a hell of a lot better. We still have two wars and torture going on. Greed is still very much alive and well. We bail out banks, yet keep unemployed hanging for two fucking months without a damn dime. Our healthcare system is not fixed nor will it be. Children are going to bed hungry, our environment continues to be destroyed, and as a final knife in the back, our democrat in the White House has his sights set on killing social security. And sadly many democrats hate gays, Muslims, and immigrants. For the first time in my life I’m ashamed of the democrat party. I’ve been unhappy with it for some time, but now I’m truly ashamed.

It’s called Calvinism.

From Calvinism to Calvinball, where they make up their own rules.

Did I miss a link? Could be.

Andover Newton in MA. A somewhat liberal place then—a very liberal place now. The current president is a rock star as far as I’m concerned. Back then, not so much. I kinda helped break the ice for more UU’s to be comfortable there by getting a modified core curriculum adopted for us. Now we’re one of the largest groups on campus. Then we were barely visible.

I think Heaven has been outsourced.

Sorry, sorry sorry. Got it now, thanks.

Yep: the American & the Indian version of the same idea.

amen. I second that emotion. With a few notable exceptions, of course.

I really wish I could disagree with you. The Democrats aren’t as bad as the Republicans, but they’re not better by nearly enough.

The Republicans may be right when they crow that America is a Christian nation, but they really should hope they’re wrong.

They’re abjectly wrong about that premise, and I do believe that they’ll all be FRIGHTFULLY surprised when the rapture doesn’t come, and they have to account for themselves at the golden bar of Heaven. I believe that the Jesus that I was taught about in Sunday School and still hear about at Mass is horrified by them.

Rachel just said that Elana Kagan is an Orthodox Jew. Somehow I don’t remember hearing about the Orthodox part. Anybody? I would have thought that would have been kinda out there.

Sounds good. I guess my question is how can you do what you do with all the seeming anger you carry?

It isn’t easy. It’s places like this that I can get that anger out. Can’t do it in church. So I get involved in causes.

Sadly this administration more than any other has caused my crisis of faith in the democratic process. It’s been a really sucky year and a half.

Or if the Rapture *does* come and they’re the ones who are left behind.

Christians have so wrong that haven’t a clue. The sabbath is Saturday not Sunday and nothing in Scripture refutes that fact. When I tell ConserviChristians Jesus was liberal it makes them batshit crazy. They don’t see the War,Greed, Capital punishment, Torture, or Social injustice as going against all of Christs teachings… It’s all about – abortions.

I don’t know anyone who has it easy. Blessings, sister.

today’s democrat party
the democrat party

I’m pissed as hell at them too, but I still refuse to call them what the wingnuts do.

That would be choice. Can the rest of us take the good cars with us and leave them with the jalopies?

I’m hoping Heaven has a really good public transit system.

[snort] I’d love to be a fly on the wall, who’s looking down from on high!

Oh, you saw that movie with Albert Brooks, didn’t you?

I sooo want the rapture. I don’t care which side I end up on, as long as it is on the other side from the Christianists.

Light rail and hybrid electric cars, powered by solar power. What else were you expecting?!

Yes, loved it. Although I was actually not thinking of that at all.

What movie did I miss? I’m pretty much tabula rasa about movies…

I figure we’re probably assured of that, because either they or us are very, very wrong.

Your comment made me think of it. I love his movies.

Guaran-damn-teed you will be on the other side! Along with me. And anyone who really tries to take the New Testament seriously.

Yes, but there’s always that old joke: masochist sez to the sadist, ‘Hit me.’ Sadist sez ‘No.’ There’s a high chance the Christianists are sadists and their view of heaven is to torment us for the rest of eternity.

Defending Your Life. Teh google has it.

Are you saying that Jesus came to serve man?

“The Bible is a COOKBOOK!”

/Twilight Zone humor

Heh. See my 60.

or perhaps brooms like Harry Potter et al use. The Nimbus 2000? No carbon emissions.

Why do you hang out with that sadist?

Beats me.

Jesus, with homegrown tomatoes and basil.

Thanks! I’ll check it out on Netflix.

cute movie. Audry Hepburn has a great small role. I think it was her last.

You guys are just too freaking cute. Gotsa go. Dinney, Dinney.

Right now I’m reading book. My Life With the Saints. It’s interesting to see how some of the greatest saints had to keep getting back to Jesus’ message after the hierarchy of the church kept turning to power. The corruption in Saint Francis’ church was immense.

PS, lifting all y’all up! I mean it.

[so holding fire it's not funny]

ELI!

KELLY!

Your restraint is appreciated. Oh, who am I kidding?

I love what Grayson said to the repugs today. Reminded them of their Christian soul and the Great Depression. Good job Eli.

And you know we are Christians by our hate by our hate yes they’ll know we are Christians by our HAAAATTTEEEE!

Thanks!

And they responded by offering $100 for someone to punch him in the face. Just like Jesus would have.

Beats me.

No!!

What the heck did that little brown man do anyhow ?!!

Eli !

There is a reason I am not a christian. People profess to following jesus, who might or might not have existed, and then do exactly the opposite.

They are truly comical to watch operate, except fore the fact of their inherent bad taste, and meanness of spirit.

Nice post Eli.

If there were a rapture they will miss the boat, and they don’t float.

Petro !

but Grayson is no Jesus. He said he’s not the kind of guy to turn the other cheek. He’d punch back.

Is he the only dem who knows how to punch back?

There are actually people (like me) who call themselves Christians who don’t fall into that category. Just sayin’…. (Love and respect your work, by the way!)

Is he the only dem who knows how to punch back?

Fixed it for ya.

Nice post Eli.

Is he the only dem who knows how to punch back?

The only one I’ve seen this month of Sundays… [sigh] [sob]

This WMA audio clip is from 2005. A “neo-con theo-con” radio host in San Francisco.

They have a hard time dealing with other religions. Their religion is apparently very weak.

Geez we need more Graysons.

LOL … Spocko !

He’s the only Dem who knows how to punch at all. Well, to the right, anyway. They’re all very good at punching to the left.

Dya think?

Oh, I know it and I know lots of amazing Christians and Catholics. And that is one reason that the right wing radio host I have above made me so angry.

One time he said that Jesus was in favor of handguns!

“The gun was the sword of the day, Jesus told his followers if they didn’t have a sword before they went out to preach they should get one.”

My uncle the priest got a kick out of that one.

Thanks!

I try to differentiate between the gentle, compassionate, be-excellent-to-each-other New Testament Christians and the angry, vengeful, fire-and-brimstone Old Testament Christians. They’re practically different species.

Sounds like a photoshop: Jesus with a sword.

I’m going to retire with a good book because I just can’t stand looking at any more Georgia primary results. I’m going to pray for the outcome, but I have a feeling that this will be an unanswered prayer. (St. Theresa said that more tears were shed over answered prayers, and I’m hoping that she was wrong, at least for me today…) Keep your fingers crossed for Regina Thomas, and sleep well, y’all!

G’nite Marion !

Just so you know what’s really out there before I head off to bed…

Wave at the bee girls for me tomorrow!

You know, because you’re smart how words can be taken out of context. And, I don’t want to see that picture. Just fuels the xtians. Don’t want to do that. Dearheart. Settle.
BTW, how’d the vet trip go today?

I’m so out of the loop.

Gnite Marion. Hope your book is good & sleep well.

Click on Marion’s link at 97. No need to take my comment out of context; so much more OTT.

Got it. Hope your kitty feels better soon. Night night.

Forgot to a your q about the kitteh. Vet didn’t know what the problem is. Gave her a battery of tests; results tomorrow. Rehydrated her; gave her an antibiotic & parasite treatment.

The article with which this post begins is about a group of Christians taking on Glenn Beck’s interpretation of the Gospels. One would think that the title would be “Glenn Beck: You’re Doing It Wrong” but instead you opt for “Christians: You’re Doing It Wrong”. Why? I’ve been emailing some FDL links to friends who describe themselves as “Fundamentalist Christians”. Are you trying to make them feel uncomfortable? There probably isn’t a religion out there that hasn’t been hijacked for political ends but evidently only Christianity gets the full bashing. How about a few posts on Islamic or Jewish or Hindu hypocrites? I somehow doubt FDL would go there.

I don’t have a problem with Christians. I have a problem with conservatives who spit on the New Testament and call themselves the One True Christians.

If your fundamentalist friends have tolerance and love for all people, hate violence and war, and believe in compassion for the poor that extends to actual material assistance, then I’m not talking about them.

The theology of the Rapture reminds me a lot of Spaceship B in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. Wonder how they’ll do making shoes.

Would you ever consider bashing non-Christian religious hypocrites?

au contraire. Siun has had a running series for years on how the Palestinians have been short changed/abused by the Israelis. FDL has no problem calling out hypocrites no matter what their persuasion. Actually, if anything, FDL is more out there than most of the blogs.

don’t forget to bring your towel.

Au contraire. She doesn’t get into issues of doctrine.

Sure, which major political party do they control?

As we rightfully deride the Old Testament for its blood sacrifices, the murder of disobedient children and non-believers and abuses against women, we should recall that there was no mention of eternal damnation in Hell until the New Testament and our loving savior Jesus came along.

You’re ducking my question.

I haven’t noticed the Muslims or Hindus interfering in U.S. domestic political system. (Election of Keith Ellison provided a brief slew of headlines, but not by his actions or actions of other Muslims.) Jews much more so, but that’s such a sore topic, that has been rehashed so much, not worth rehashing stuff again. OTOH, Xtianists try to make political headlines & hay often, so they provide much more fuel for posts.

You’re missing my point.

Yeah, but the discussion never goes to doctrine.

You could do a post about AIPAC and Jewish doctrine and hypocrisy. Who else gets such lopsided votes in the Congress? Would you do that? Fill a post up with doctrinal stuff?

My wise ol’ Gram-mama always told me … never argue with a fool, he’ll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience !

…Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:24-25 and Luke 18:24-25

Thanks Eli.

Per many others, the Protestant/Roman Catholic work ethic has tortured the preaching of the historical Jesus of Nazareth into material wealth as the confirmation of God’s blessing.

Not sure what your point is. If the Xtians are going to use their faith to interfere in U.S. politics, do you think their doctrines are not relevant to the discussion?

Judaism is not a religion with “doctrine.” Justice is so fundamental to Judaism that it is impossible to divorce the actions of the government from the core of the religion.

I think that the reaction to what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank is so acute because it is so hypocritical on so many levels.

Doctrine is dumb – don’t care whose it is, particularly doctrines created by ancient people whose experience is completely irrelevant to a modern human.

~~~You have your answer. Move on, please.~~~

Jon Walker is upstairs!
Georgia Primary Election Results Live Blog

I mostly agree.

oy Jesus was a hippy Jew ,sorta like Bob Dylan

Petrussssssssskie!

Hiya sweetie !

I don’t mind. I’m just opposed to double standards. And for a long time, people on the Left have gone out of their way to bash Christianity. We object when the Right bashes Islam but seem to enjoy seeing Christianity bashed. Don’t think that it doesn’t drive people away. It does.

okay back to TCM and Tyronne Power…….easy to look at….nite nite

The Bob Dylan who said Meir Kahane “had it all figured out”? That Bob Dylan? Funny how he never gets called on that. He’s a hero and Helen Thomas gets retired. That’s the double standard.

Tyrone Power … v. nice !

If you want such a post, how about you write it and post it at the Seminal like anybody else? The way I figure it, there are few things that have to be more irritating to a blogger than the yahoos who come along out of the blue and tell them what they’re “supposed” to be writing about. It’s a free Internet. Use it.

Drop the name calling and I’d grant that this is a fair point.

We’re watching that too. Nightie night sadly!

Why stop at a sword, here He is with a gun.

Jesus of Nazareth died a pious Jew. It was only after the destruction of Jerusalem (70ce) that the pluralism that had existed in Judaism (Essenes, Sadducees, Pharisees, Nazarenes, followers of John the Baptist…. ) came to an end. Jesus’ followers were kicked out of the Temple. That’s why none of the Gospels (canonical and non-canonical) were written before 70. Expulsion meant they lost their jobs, their families, everything. They had to start a new religion and it’s that experience which generated a lot of the anti-semitic statements in the New Testament..

Another consequence of the destruction was that we lost the essential Jewishness of Jesus. Greek influences especially dominated the development.

I perceive the old testament to be an ‘expose’ on the character of God.
And one of these prime facets is Justice which may seem to be overemphasized. Yet there is also Mercy. Indeed I can see the story of Jesus(God) taking full responsibility for his creation in almost every book of the ot, Abrahamic Covenant, Moses and Snakes(numbers 21), Ruth’s Redemption etc. And to stipulate that Jesus repudiates( our word of the week :D ) himself as manifested in the ot seems intellectually dishonest.

Mark 14:62″I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ “

Boo – There’s a wonderful book called Jesus, For the Non-Religious that delves into the Jewish background, the Hebrew behind the Gospels. Rips a lot of what’s in the NT and leaves interesting questions. Written by John Shelby Spong.

Thanks.

Greek influences especially dominated the development.

That cannot be emphasized enough.

Also, the Greek itself becomes twisted through the centuries. Today’s reader of the Bible, both testaments, especially the Old Testament, has very little clue of what it actually says.

If the Old Testament in particular was made into a movie, and a truly faithful period piece, people would be aghast.

You’re so very welcome, BR.

Meh. If you confront the contradictions of any judeo-christian belief long enough the condition devolves into, “Well God is so amazing and awesome that He’s incomprehensible.”

Which if I’m willing to take at face value, means that the idea that I can with any certitude ascertain His plan, His concerns about what I’m eating when, and His interest in the boundaries of my sex life seems to be fundamentally insulting to the very idea that God is amazing and awesome.

Either God is comprehendible or He isn’t. If He is, then He’s either a malevolent prick, or has a sick sense of humor. If he isn’t, then all endeavors to comprehend Him are nothing more than spiritual masturbation.

Gibbon is particularly funny on the Israelites: when all the miracles were happening, they were most rebellious; but after the miracles stopped they were most devout.

curious – I thought most understood Luke 22:36 – [Jesus] said to [the disciples], “But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag; and the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.” (New Revised Standard Version, NRSV) to mean it is OK to use violence to defend when in immediate danger – but even a sentence to death by the gov is not to be resisted is the reading of others (Acts 4:25-31, 8:1-3, 9:1-2, 12:1-5), who read it in context as a one time only thing that was said so that the Scripture might be fulfilled (“And he was numbered with the transgressors” – having the sword made Jesus a transgressor).

A rebuke is recorded in three of the four gospels: Matthew 26:52 (‘”Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.’), Luke 22:51 (‘But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.’), and John 18:11 (‘Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”‘). Mark does not record a rebuke, but does note that while one disciple used a sword, Jesus allowed himself to be arrested peacefully (implying that he disagreed with the use of force).

Matthew records “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” – seems to condemn/strongly discourage use of weapons.

Besides two swords were not enough to defend the group, but Jesus said ‘That is enough’, and indeed, there was not time for them to sell their cloak and buy a sword, so it had to have another meaning beyond right to use a weapon.

No I do not think political objective discussions requires discussions of minority culture or population segment religion.

Indeed, I had a good laugh at spocko@87′s comment that “They have a hard time dealing with other religions. Their religion is apparently very weak.” since I see many atheists (and many in other religions) as having the problem that “Their religion is apparently very weak”, causing a lot of hot air to cover the problem.

So I am into the not dumping on any religion as a cause of political error. It is people that make decisions to preserve their power over others that I fight – not the religions they profess – indeed their religion is none of my business, just as mine is not the business of anyone else.

Great post.

And I’m gonna use your line often …

The Democrats aren’t as bad as the Republicans, but they’re not better by nearly enough.

Thanks much.

Spong’s an interesting fellow – not your standard Episcopal bishop.

I at first thought he had become a diest, but it is more subtle than that – he rejects the theist (the belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world) approach to the nature of God and our relationship to God, and believes that he is a Christian because he believes that Jesus Christ fully expressed the presence of a God of compassion and selfless love, and that this is the meaning of the early Christian proclamation, “Jesus is Lord” (Spong, 1994 and Spong, 1991). His rejection of the bodily resurrection do not change his view of Jesus (and for the record there is a lot to suggest that he is wrong on the bodily resurrection and suggest – which I accept but then I am a Christian – that there were folks on day 1 that claimed a bodily resurrection(and were writing very early).

His is an interesting version of Christianity.

Here’s a little history lesson for yall about Jesus and the Elite. It goes all the way back to about twenty years after Jesus was publicly lynched for being a revolutionary. See, our boy , Jesus, had twelve disciples and he told them that women were equal to men and he told them that all slavery was forbidden.

Well Christianity was really catching on and the Roman Empire was just a little intimidated. So then comes along a guy that had real connections with the elite and some other cats that wanted to boss people around and also detested women. Then enter stage left, a guy named Saul. He comes out and has this big public vision and says. hey Jesus wants me to be an Apostle, and now call me Paul and by the way, those women follows of his were just some nasty dreaded hos, ignore them. Jesus said, now that he is dead, no women can be Apostles and he wouldn’t be caught dead with a women cuz ya know, God only like peps with penises… exclusively. Also Jesus told me he changed his mind about Slaves. Now he’s for them so have at it and start chaining and whipping to your heart’s content.

Sounds ridiculous, well guess what, even the canonized Bible, canonized by guess who, the same peps Paul was in with, admit this much. Ever hear of the Southern Baptists? Guess why that church popped up. Yep because when they tried to end slavery in the south the SB made a church to honor Paul and his teaching cuz, you know, they thought the slave stuff was the bomb. AKA wars and killing okay by Paul. You know, some people need killing. Esp peeps that aren’t down with killing, slavery, and misogyny.

Anyone that thinks this sounds out there can just google it cuz, guess what, this is no conspiracy theory.

When you find a record of Jesus denouncing, slavery let me know.

Here is Paul in his own words, Galations 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Acts of the Apostles and some letters attributed to Paul, but not written by him are not reliable sources for his thought. Also some of misogynist monks, who later transcribed his letters, took some liberties.

Jesus preached the imminent end of the world. It was Paul who turned that into a realized eschatology and made his message palatable to a much wider audience.

Jesus also never saw himself as preaching to the gentiles. He got into trouble for including Samaritans. See Paul reinterpreting that at the Council of Jerusalem 49ce: 1 Corinthians 13:12.

Next to what Jesus said as reported in the New Testament, the most definitive source (at least for me) of what Jesus was teaching is found in A Course In Miracles. After reading this book, I then read again the four gospels, focusing on what Jesus said, and so, so much of his meaning became crystal clear.

One of several things I find interesting about a Course in Miracles, which focuses on Jesus and his message, is that a Jewish lady, a self-proclaimed agnostic who headed a medical college in upper state New York, transcribed this information in shorthand (as she received it in her mind from wherever) about forty years ago, spending time each day over several years transcribing her shorthand into prose with the help of a gay co-worker at the medical college.

Another interesting thing is that A Course In Miracles is the most liberal spiritual text you will ever come across. How do I know this? Years ago after reading A Course In Miracles, I asked some friends who had also read The Course whether the message contained in it was liberal or conservative. What was strange was that two of my friends who watch Fox News religiously and believe in the conservative ideology, after thinking for a second, responded liberal. Of course, I knew The Course was liberal, totally liberal, in its message, as if one were actually sitting at the knee of Jesus while he explained what is really going on in this world.

But don’t believe me. Read A Course In Miracles if you’re interested. No religion is involved. Definitely nothing orthodox related. Essentially we are all the Christ, the holy child of God, eternal Spirit and nothing but eternal Spirit, so help us God, which is exactly what Jesus came into this world to teach. Peace.

christians are the most un-christ-like people I have ever met

How interesting, that reminds me of something Alan Watts said in a lecture titled, The Relevance of Oriental Philosophy, one of my all-time favs of his.

ALAN WATTS: Theology has not, as a matter of fact, had a very distinguished record, in promoting the study of other than the Christian religion. And this is rather puzzling.

Most study of comparative religions that goes on in theological schools has historically been missionary oriented: To find out the weird ideas of the prospects, so as to be able to undermine them. Because you see if you know in the first place that you have the true religion, there really is no point in studying any other one. And you can very quickly find reasons for showing them to be inferior, because that was a foregone conclusion. They had to be.

And therefore all arguments about the respective merits of respective religions especially where Christianity is involved and often where Judaism is involved, and sometimes Islam too, all of which are essentially Imperialistic religions, in all such discussions the judge and the advocate are usually the same person. Because if, for example, you get into discussions as to whether Buddha was a more profound spiritual character than Jesus Christ, uh you arrive at your decision on the basis of a scale of values which is of course Christian. And in this sense the judge and the advocate are the same.

And I really do marvel at this [pauses] Christian Imperialism because it prevails even among theological liberals. And it reaches its final absurdity in religionless Christianity, the doctrine that there is no god and Jesus Christ is his only son. Ah, because you see there’s some anxiety here that even though we don’t believe in god anymore, uh somehow we still gotta be Christians. And obviously because we have a very curious kind of organization that must be understood: the inner meaning of the church as it works in fact.

A society of ‘the saved,’ you see, necessarily requires outside it a society of ‘the not saved.’ Because if there is not that contrast, you don’t know that you belong to the in group. And in this way all social groups with claims to some kind of special status must necessarily create aliens and foreigners. And St. Thomas Aquinas let the cat out of the bag one day when he said that the saints, in heaven, would occasionally peer over the battlements into Hell and praise god for the just punishment visited upon evil-doers.

Now as you know I’m not being very fair and very kind to modern theology but there is this strange persistence of insisting that Our Group Is the Best Group. And I feel that there is in this something peculiarly irreligious, and furthermore it exhibits a very strange lack of faith. … [My transcription and emphasis. The Relevance of Oriental Philosophy (audio download).]

My translation of Christian Imperialists: Who cares what those people think, look how miserable their lives are, god sure must hate them. What a terrible temper he has. I know, let’s show god how much we love him (and make no mistake: god’s got balls), by making their lives a living hell. That’s sure to get our sorry asses into heaven.

Yeah, well, Obama claims to be a Christian also. What a crock of shit. I understand the temptation to single out the Republican Church. It is un-Christian while being loud and proud. But when it comes to not practicing what you preach, the Democrats don’t have standing to complain.

D’oh, where are my online manners?

Eli! Dude, that’s a totally bitchin’ bit of myth-busting, nicely done. I bow in your virtual direction (Coriolis correction requested beyond North America).

So true…..one of Obama’s very first acts as president was to increase the faith based initiative which gives our tax dollars to religious groups with zero oversight on how that money is spent.
He also tried to create a panel of religious leaders to “advise” him, until the ACLU freaked out.

See my comment @151.

Eli has raised the issue I’m always on about: we can’t understand the behavior of our political class unless we understand their belief system, worldview, mythos.

It’s Barney Frank’s famous question, to the tea-partier, only we need to scale it up: in what cosmos do these people spend most of their time?

How do they believe the world to be composed and to function? What does that imply about the best way of being human in the world?

The difficulty of control: are you wise enough, to play at being god? And to understand what that question means, we’ve got to go back to metaphysical assumptions underlying Western common sense. And whether you are a Jew, or a Christian, or an agnostic, or an atheist, you are not uninfluenced by the whole tradition of Western culture: the models of the universe which it has employed, which influence our very language, the structure of our thought, the very constitution of logic, which are going into, say, computers.

The Western model of the universe is political. And engineering or architectural. It’s natural for a child to ask its mother, How was I made? It would be inconceivable for a Chinese child to ask, How was I made; it might ask, How was I grown? Or how did I grow, but not how was I made, as if I were an artifact. Something put together, something which is a construct. All Western thought is based on the thought that the universe is a construct. And even when we got rid of the idea of the constructor, the personal god, uh we continued to think of the world in terms of a machine, in terms say of Newtonian mechanics, and later in terms of what we call quantum mechanics, although I find it rather difficult to understand how quantum theory is, in any sense, mechanics. It’s much more like organics, which is, to me, a different concept. However that may be, it has percolated, you see, into the roots of our common sense: that the world is a construct, is an artifact.

And therefore, as one understands the operations of a machine, by analysis of its parts, by separating them into their original bits, we have bitted the cosmos and see everything going on in terms of bits of information, and have found that this is extremely fruitful in enabling us to control what’s happening. After all, the whole of Western technology is the result of bitting.

[...]

So we reduce the infinite wiggliness of the world, to grasps, or bits. We’re getting back to biting, you see, the idea of teeth, to grasps of thought, and so we thereby describe the world in terms of things, just as that fisherman could describe his view by the number of net hole over—through which the view was showing. And this has been the immensely, and apparently, successful enterprise of all technological culture, as superbly emphasized by ourselves.

[...]

There is a fundamental difference, between a mechanism and an organism, which can be described operationally: mechanism is assembled; you add this bit to that bit to that bit to that bit; but an organism grows. That is to say, when you watch, in a microscope, a solution in which crystals are forming, you don’t see this thing of little bits coming and coming and coming and joining each other and finally making up a shape. You see a solution where—well it’s like watching a photographic plate develop. Suddenly all the whole area which you’re watching seems to organize itself; to develop; to make sense, moving from the relatively simple and gooey to the relatively structured and prickly. But not by addition.

So then, if we are trying to understand and control the world through conscious attention, which is a scanning system, which takes in everything bit bit bit bit bit bit bit bit bit bit bit, what we’re going to run into is that if that’s the only method we rely on, everything is going to appear increasingly too complicated to manage. … [My transcription and emphasis. Alan Watts, Seeing Through the Net (audio download).]

“Too complicated to manage”–sound familiar? That’s where we are right now.

IOW, if any of our many Christian-Zionist Imperialists have ever seen the movie The Matrix, they were probably rooting for the freakin’ machines. You know, like Bill Kristol, who said he always rooted for Darth Freakin’ Vader.

IMO, it’s absolutely crucial that we understand both their mythos, and ours. Didn’t some long dead Greek guy say, the worst assumptions are those which function unexamined? If we work within their frame, we’ve already lost before we begin.

So for one thing, let’s take Scarecrow’s advice, and stop using the war metaphors for everything we do.

Second, we can also stop using machine metaphors for living, growing organisms. As it turns out, we don’t need Dr. Morpheus’s funny little pills, to release ourselves from The Matrix, we already have all the power we need, to release ourselves from within.

Great post knowbuddhau.

I think the most pernicious and destructive Christian beliefs are based on the principles of blood sacrifice and the right of a parent to demand it of their children.

Thanks, TS. Glad you liked it.

Re: sacrifices. You are so right! I’ve been thinking about the differences between war costs and war sacrifices.

The dead are the lucky stiffs we sacrifice (our dead, not “theirs,” their dead aren’t sacrificed, they’re slaughtered for getting in the way of our glorious mission), and the treasure is heaped on the altar of a cranky old god of war profits.

We’re practicing human sacrifice “over there,” so the oligarchs don’t have to sacrifice even a penny “over here.” No wonder war costs are “off budget,” wherever the hell that may be. Those aren’t costs to them, that’s the way they think they appease their cranky old war god.

After all, it isn’t a sacrifice if it doesn’t hurt–the little people, that is, us, the cannon-fodder and cash-cow serfs on Plantation Earth, born to be used to secure the eternal lives of leisure the self-appointed MOTU believe is their god-given right.

This mythology falsely places fear of our own Shadow at the center of being human, then valorizes a perpetual war against our other half as the only permissible way of being in the world. Onward, Christianist (Zionist, Islamist, whatever) soldiers, marching off to war!

Why don’t people realize how fortunate they are to have us bomb them back to the Stone Age in the name of asserting our god-given right to rule the world forever and ever amen? Ingrates. (/s of mythic proportions)

Just as prostitution is the world’s oldest profession, religion is the world’s oldest scam.

Even Cosby said, “I brought you into this world; I’ll take you out!” Oh, well, I guess we can’t all be Kahlil Gibran.

Now here’s a real-time case in point.

I just walked by a TV tuned to CNN. The story caption said, “New Weapon in Cleanup Arsenal.” WTF?!

It’s our war on mother nature herself, our effort to machine the cosmos into order after our own (self-projected) image of god, the male cosmic tyrant-engineer, that created the oil-fueled economy to begin with, and now we’re going to solve that problem by making war on our war against nature?

That’s insanity of mythic proportions!

If, in the creation of our shared narrative, we keep using the war metaphors for everything we do (try this experiment: pick a word, any word; add “war;” search for that phrase, and you’ll get a ton of references), then we shouldn’t be at all surprised, when “perpetual war for perpetual peace” is what we get.

Word! I’ve been thinking of exactly that phrase. It’s a perfect summary of the mythos that ails us today.

After all, to our self-righteous MOTU, we’re not really people, just herd animals, soulless unless we have the holy spirit blown into us by the proper priest of the proper church (whether that be sectarian, or secular: swallowing dictates of the Big Man Upstairs is the sine qua non of the Perfect Citizen, donchaknow); or worse, not even organisms, just soulless Newtonian voodoo dolls, oh so easily jacked.

In the growth and destruction they create, rising above it all with innocence guaranteed by institutionalized solipsism, in Max Keiser’s apt phrase, they believe themselves to be gods among us creatures of a lesser creation. They believe themselves to be wielding the cosmogenetic powers themselves, as measured in lives sacrificed and dollars sequestered. Therefore, since believe they’re doing god’s work by bringing the world into being (market-maker market-maker market-maker!), they feel perfectly justified, as financial terrorists and suicide bankers, in destroying it, too.

The method, as in our use of drones to machine people into submission by raining down death from above; BP’s use of submersible robots, to machine the GOM back under their mechanical thumbs; and Goldman Sachs’s use of high-frequency algorithmic computerized trading, to manipulate markets in the very act of making them; is to machine the world into full-spectrum subjugation by remote control.

It’s the credo of Perkinsian economic hit men: We built the (fill in the blank) economy, we’ll blow it up, too, sticking the people with the bill both ways. Bwahahaha!

I am a Catholic and find it insulting to see my own go so extreme, so often in all parts of daily life

I prefer to keep my religion out of my work and out of politics. It makes sense in every way

But then we have my lunatic religious right who want THEIR religion at every corner of every block and that is their 1st Amendment right per them….oh, but if a Muslim wants it…..TO HELL WITH THEM! RELIGION SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED THERE!

Such hypocrites