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Watching last week’s Closing Arguments in the Perry v Schwarzenegger federal trial to determine the constitutionality of California’s Proposition 8, which revoked marriage rights for same-sex couples, I was struck, as I am every time the Proponents’ (Defendant-Intervenor) Counsel rises to address the Court: here’s yet another argument they’ve decided to take for a test drive.
Last week, it was some new silliness that the state has an interest in opposite-sex (“traditional”) marriage because the state-sanctified marital bond provides a way to channel otherwise irresponsible procreation. This will ensure that the child resulting from such “sexual congress” will be raised by its natural mother and natural father. Left un-argued was how, exactly, it then becomes the state’s business to delegitimize same-sex marriages, since the possibility of accidental procreation from these unions in approximately zero. No, Charles Cooper’s argument was that marriage was the state’s business, since a child would become a ward of the state if not properly raised by the state-channeled loving union of its own procreative natural parents. Therefore, no gays!
Got it? No, me neither.
Of course, this wasn’t the Prop 8 folks’ first argument, promulgated in 2008 during their barely successful campaign to strip civil rights from their fellow citizens. That winning proposition was that your kid would come home from school knowing how to give blowjobs (boys only) or perform cunnilingus (just for girls) since gay sex would become mandatory kindergarten fare. Princes marrying princes! Princesses marrying princesses!
In between, they’ve been equally creative.
Teens would become gay if they knew marriage equality was the law; their experimentation would lead to permanent choice of a gay lifestyle. Parents will lose the right to tell their children about permissible sexual or romantic arrangements. Heterosexuals would feel their own marriages were somehow less than if they had to share the institution with gays. This would mean the marital vows would be less strong and more frequently violated.
The promiscuity of the gay male, once he could marry, would lead to the promiscuity of all married males. The lack of a strong male figure at home would mean boys would become ladylike, and perhaps prefer ironing to baseball. Ladies might go back to liking men instead of other ladies, leaving their adopted children in the lurch. Two men aren’t birdlike, or beelike, or something about the bees and the birds.”
Churches would be sued to perform same-sex ceremonies, or at least have to rent their property to allow such abominations. Church schools would have to adopt the mandatory-in-kindergarten gay sex curriculum, or lose their federal education funding. Tax-exemptions would be eliminated for churches that promoted heterosexual-only weddings.
Marriage among heterosexuals would become de-institutionalized by allowing same-sex couples to participate; somehow the already well-on-its-way-to-deinstitutionalization state of the marital institution, treated quite badly by heterosexuals, went unmentioned. Sharing marriage with the gays would make opposite-sex couples see it as even less honorable than they see it now, with 50% of their unions eventually splitsville.
(I mean, really!? Could same-sex couples be any worse at marriage than opposite-sex couples? Could the marital institution be treated any worse than it has been as an opposite-only operation? It’s hard to imagine; heteros are batting .500 at best.)
Pastors would be arrested for hate speech for reading Leviticus from the pulpit. Cities would seize church property if they didn’t hire drag queens to teach Sunday school. Church picnics would mandate non-gender-determinate garb. Sunday school teachers would need to become fellatio (for boys) and cunnilingus (for girls only) training specialists, because five days a week in public school just isn’t enough.
Pastors would be required to marry dudes to their dogs. And ladies to their kitties.
Life as we know it in America would come to an end.
And yet, despite the heavenly chorus down the millenia calling out for traditional marriage values, for preserving this sanctified marital bond as between only one man and one woman (as they claim, incorrectly, it has been throughout human history) the Defendant-Interveners’ Counsel never was able to rebut, argue, or present evidence to counter the central argument put forward by Plaintiff’s Counsel Theodore Olson: the Supreme Court of the United States has, fourteen times since 1888, defined marriage as a fundamental individual civil right in America and — in Lawrence v Texas — then further defined intimate relations between two people as protected by their fundamental right to privacy.
How, then, Ted Olson asked, can the intimate expression of that protected private right result in the state’s withholding of the fundamental marital bond? It can’t. It especially can not withhold a right when no harm, or possible harm, has been shown.
No harm ever was shown, despite the wildly shifting claims I’ve cited above.
Counsel for the Defendant-Interveners, despite all their predictions of a vastly changed American moral landscape when marriage equality is again permitted in California, cannot explain why the state must withhold the fundamental marital right from those whose private expression of it differs from the majority’s.
In fact, they never even tried.
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You all did fantastic blogging at the trial Teddy!
Thanks, Matt, and thanks for tuning in last week.
Charles Cooper, dumbass at large.
As I watched this place for trial coverage, it seemed that the PropHate™ forces had to squeeze themselves into smaller, tighter boxes from which to fight out of.
They are now a squeaking little gerbil.
Thank you Teddy, and FDL, for such lush and comprehensive coverage of this, and everything else.
Teddy!
The haters are as incoherent and counterfactual as always, I see. Don’t know how you have the stomach to listen to all that. I would be pelting them with rotten eggs after about 5 minutes.
hiya Doc
I kept thinking on Wednesday, “he can’t really be this stupid, can he?”
But I think, despite my wanting to believe he is a smart lawyer, that he is not. There’s no way a smart lawyer would bring ‘millenia’ of non-evidence to bear on the case, as well as introduce an entirely new ‘irresponsible procreation’ argument at Closing.
And there’s no way a smart attorney would respond to a federal judge who asked for his evidence that he didn’t need evidence. That’s just not smart.
heya newtonusr
It’s a special place, here, right?
Hope the SLN crew can dig deep tonight. We need to keep the hamster wheels running.
Teddy! (Smooch!)
The idea that the state has a vested interest in preventing “irresponsible procreation” would be frightening (eugenics, anyone?) if it weren’t so obviously incompetent at doing so. Has Cooper ever heard of divorce? Step-parents? I mean, for crying out loud, the idiocy cries out to heaven.
Back atcha, Kelly
This kind of shit is why I make a point of talking about widespread same sex (different genders, however) marriage in my intro classes. Looks like I need to talk some more about fosterage and adoption as well.
teddy!
This is pissing me off to no end…!
I was very suspicious of Olson’s participation in this at fist.
No longer.
They make all these specious nonsensical arguments in support of “traditional marriage” which would be laughable if their actions didn’t cause harm to so many, then when it finally reaches SCOTUS I expect the conservative activist judges will rule in their favor.
I wish I could live in a civilized country.
5-4 decision, the Usual Suspects for the majority.
Reminds me of the argument being put forward in the 1980s about AIDS being divine judgment against homosexuality.
That argument kind of falls on its face when — statistically speaking — the demographic group least likely to be struck with AIDS were lesbian women.
I kept hopping back and forth between you and Marcy which made double the fun!
What’s even weirder? Norquist joins GOProud.
Probably although I have no confidence in Obama’s noms.
What on Earth is the BigOrangeCretin™ going to do now?
But I thought all of Obama’s nominees were lesbians. [/snark]
I have a nephew who did some “irresponsible” procreating. Goodthing is that he had good support to help him through that part of his life. His kid is cute but my nephew was not ready for parenthood. And he didn’t marry the mother but they get along OK.
A lot of conservatives don’t object to teh gay, provided you don’t object to being second class citizens.
Igaveealiertoday!
Hellllo Suzanne!
They are also trying to woo the LGBT community away from the Democrats since many of them are fiscal conservatives.
Well, Plaintiffs’ attorneys don’t expect SCOTUS will hear this case for some time. Must go through the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, then onto The Big Show.
Lots could change, right?
When I said ‘lush’, that’s what I meant.
I recall well reading the Libby trial liveblog with newness and fascination.
But this one: when you started, I was sure you and the other reporters couldn’t keep up the pace, keep painting the word-pictures. But FDL pulled it off.
Big hat’s off.
Implode…! Hopefully…! ;-)
:: driveby ::
Hey Teddy! And hey all. Just kicked in to the tune of $50, and I wish I could do more. This is the best damn site on the internets, with the best authors and commenters, and the very best coverage. Big thanks to everyone for all you do.
Or worse.
I had a lovely experience late this morning. It’s Pride Day in Denver today, but I had tons of errand stuff to do since I worked yesterday. So I just went to the tail end of the Parade before going to the grocery store. I was wearing my “Don’t want gay marriage? Don’t Have One” t-shirt.
Walking back to the truck, there were some Phelps wannabes ostensibly going back to their vehicle. One of them noticed my shirt and hollered “Die Faggot!” Once that one got going the other 4 with him all started up “God HATES you!” “Burn in hell!” and the rest.
I blew them kisses.
Doesn’t help that the Dems have turned out to be such piss poor advocates for equality.
Yes we were quite the tag-team this time, with Texter Bmaz playing cleanup (and celebrity photographer as well!)
.
.
Hey, folks, I am back East tonight, where it really IS late at night when Late Night appears! So I’m going to leave you to your own devices after suffering through the DC area’s hottest day so far. Sacrifice a virgin, or whatever your faith tradition requires, for me please — more, even hotter days ahead in Virginia this week!
Behave, now! Don’t do anything you wouldn’t do if I was here…
(heh)
That’s like Hitler trying to woo Jews because many of them are pro-business. [/SNARK]
Don’t be such a stranger, drive by more often!
Enjoy getting up early! Damn early!
*waving to Teddy from central Loudoun* Enjoy your stay and keep cool!
Aloha, LL…! *g*
Yeah, they seem to have gotten really good at ignoring or outright alienating their actual base in the past 30 years.
Nighters. Stay cool as always.
Hi/bye, LL!
Well thanks Matt, and ok — I can stay for another 25 minutes ;-)
And aloha CT!
Hey DrD!
I am glad their violence was only verbal… this time.
It makes me ashamed for our country.
Olson’s trying to do something to make up for getting Bush “elected”. Guilt much?
“sexual congress”
I’m assuming that refers to the likes of Diaperman Vitter, Widestance Craig, “Abstinence me, baby” Souder, etc., etc. Yes, I would say our Congress is very sexual.
Can we just find a nice rock out in the middle of a swamp somewhere for these people to crawl under so they don’t annoy the citizenry?
So have the sane people of Virginia figured out how o get rid of the insane attorney general yet?
What could possibly be misconstrued as something we wouldn’t normally do…? ;-)
It seems like more and more Dems are openly pro business and even the ones who still talk like populists don’t act as if they really believe it.
To make up for that, he would have to move mountains, and more.
But I’ll take this. This is an absolute good.
Heh – you’re telling me.
It’s too bad belch wasn’t home. He’s a tad under 6’5″ and I usually don’t have a whole lotta problems when I have him on my arm.
LOL!! A Kodak moment!
Gawd, I wish…he is just unbelievable, a loose cannon. And sadly the sane people of VA seem to be in the minority.
Never hurts to have friends in high places. :)
Well, here in Arizona….
Too many fruitcakes.
Sadly true. As the Republicans have surged ever further out of the rightwing fringe, the Dems have moved right as well. At this point, the Democratic Party, as represented by elected officials and the party leadership is a center right party (Rockefeller Republicans). The bulk of the membership remains center-left or moderate left. We do not actually have a progressive political party in this country any more. Unfortunately I do not think there is any realistic hope of establishing a viable third party as there are far too many institutional obstacles.
You look up to him?
Or does he bow down to you?
I’ll accept this as a small down payment, though. He still owes…big time! With interest.
I feel for you all out there as well, with the likes of Jan Brewer as gov!
Ok, time to split, got to save the public from themselves tomorrow. Nice to chat, thanks Teddy, and take care all!
One of these days they’ll invert the capitol dome so it is easier for corporations to fly overhead and throw money in.
G’nite LL. Think I will follow your lead. Splendid evening to all.
Night!
I think they already have.
Vconras Mighty Leader.
You brain fried Lanny “Douchenozzle” Davis into a sputtering idiot.
What do you think that train under the Capital is really for?
Think I will toddle off. Take care all.
We had a total of two protesters at the last pride even I attended in Austin and they were studiously not being obnoxious, they were so heavily outnumbered. I didn’t approach them but only saw them from a distance and judging by the way they were dressed, they were probably LDS.
Lanny started off a blithering idiot. Anything else is just icing.
He and Lieberman must sit around in a Georgetown bar, thinking of ways to undermine ‘their Progressive base’.
I love the vision of drag queens teaching Sunday school. Cracks me up.
Jane was great.
Reducing a Washington lawyer to defenseless shyster is divine.
Sorry for the totally OT, but was just wondering if there’s any news on the AA job. Sorry also if redundant as I’ve not been monitoring all threads lately.
Sure hope things go well. If there was ever a person that deserves a break, IMO it’s you. Good luck. Of course, lot’s of very good folks here at FDL. I wish them ALL the best.
God damned assholes that look at us as “lesser people” (sorry no link, but I swear Alan Simplson said that, asshole.) sure know how to make life, which is already hard, even harder. Fucking assholes.
That is classic!
Should be spread far and wide, ratfood.
A couple of weeks ago Ed Schultz had Davis on his show because, well, because he’s Ed Schultz.
And Lanny argued that he and Ed and the President are all Progressives, but that they have some minor differences.
But you could see Ed stop short – he could not attack Lanny’s ridiculous statement… because Ed had gone into the tank, right on cue, for ObamaCare™.
LOL!!!!
Goddamned that’s a good one RF!!! Even for you, who’s made me spew more than anyone, that’s one of your best!!!
Well, at least it looks like Rahm’s leaving soon.
Well that couldn’t happen too soon.
We have seen this floated several times.
But let’s say it is true: who will Obama appoint to replace him?
Reading professional literature at work, there was an add for
Special Libraries Association annual meeting for 2010 — Mary Maitlin and James Carville “special speakers” in NOLA conference. I’ll be skipping that one.
Right – Jim Messina, currently Rahm’s 2nd in command? Formerly Baucus’s boy? Equally disastrous.
Nope, I haven’t heard anything but I only applied on Friday so I wouldn’t expect to over the weekend.
Maybe even more so, if that’s possible.
Actually, Podesta could be worse now that I’m thinking about it.
That’s the fun part. I say Rachel Maddow! And she’d be worth ten times what Rahm has been. I know everyone here hates Obama, but I don’t. He’s a smart, smart guy. Plus, I think he cares more about America than he does about a second term. It will be telling to see who he chooses.
Granted, he’s been too tough on “terrorism”, but he cannot govern without this approach.
Messina has made hash of public policy and communications, perhaps worse that Emanuel. So he has that going for him.
What I worry about is if O goes for an old DC hand, an institutional Democratic player. Like Panetta.
And the COS is hard to fill with fresh blood.
“idealism” Give me a break…!
I don’t know anything about Jim Messina, but that sounds bad. Fuck.
Well yeah. It’s like using a nuclear weapon in a knife fight.
No possibility. I’m guessing (hoping!) Obama will surprise.
You didn’t call me again Kelly but I hadn’t realized it was Pride weekend in Denver.
I think Bill Clinton should be his COS!!!! Give ‘em something to talk about.
Bill is cut from the same New DLC’er cloth…! 8-(
So does that mean you think Bill Clinton is a bad guy?
No worries. It’s not likely it will actually be Messina.
At least I don’t think so. Been wrong before, will be again. Many times.
From Wikipedia page on the judge in the case:
I had no idea, I am surprised I haven’t seen it mentioned anywhere. You can be sure that once the decision is handed down against Prop 8 (and you can be sure it will) that every religious nut will be using it to tar Judge Walker.
The only question is how sweeping Walker’s decision will be and whether the 9th Circuit will stay the ruling pending review: my guess is it will be sweeping (overturning all like laws in the US) and that the appellate court won’t place a hold on its enforcement because the defendants have little chance of success because their argument was so weak.
I certainly didn’t imply that… But, I’m none too impressed with his record…! 8-(
It was a beautiful day here in the land of Cleve. Blue skies, clouds passing by and breezes galore. MrCE and I, in our quest to lose pounds ended up at Whole Foods (I KNOW, I know) and were seduced by crab cakes. Then I read Masaccio’s message from France, sigh. Local food rules there.
Ladies & Gentlemen, Late Late Night is upstairs…
Late Late Night FDL: Look What the Cat Drug In!
OMG Loo Hoo, that’s huge! Wow.
I personally see no reason what.so.ever to believe that Obama cares about anything or anybody outside himself. He’s just like pretty much all the rest of the politicians regardless of their ideologies…another stuffed shirt, imho.