The progressive movement is at a crossroads. The alliance with the Democratic party that served both groups during the Bush years is breaking down. Progressives must now choose: do we accept a corporate-sponsored model functioning within the party that ultimately bows to the party’s corporatist goals, or are we willing to fund an independent movement, capable of freely advocating for progressive values from the outside?
FDL has chosen the latter path, and although the rewards are much greater, it’s also much harder. People often don’t realize that the freedom that our writers have to speak their minds, buck the party line and explore the topics that are “third rail” in other places is a direct result of a conscious choice we made several years ago to finance and scale FDL to operate on funding streams that could not be cut off by powerful interests. We’ve worked hard to find and develop the best talent on the internet, pay them for their work and give them the freedom to do so without worrying about whether they’ll get a check or not that month. An enormous part of my job has become making sure that the money is there to give them that freedom, in addition to paying for the the platform and the technical support to get their message out.
I’m asking for your help today. We need to raise at least $50,000 by the end of June so that we can continue to cover stories like the BP oil spill, Prop 8, Social Security, financial regulation, and the wars in the Middle East without fear that the rich and the powerful can pick up a phone and cut our funding if they don’t like what we write. And if we’re doing our job right, they won’t. That’s the role of a functioning fourth estate: to hold those in power accountable.
But I’m asking for more than a one-time donation. I’m asking progressives to re-think the way they think the way in which we fund the movement. I know that this comes at a time when people are forced to make hard economic choices on many fronts. But that is happening in large part because the Masters of the Universe have run roughshod over the world economy unchecked for so long. Our movement had an incredible growth spurt with the advent of the blogosphere and the ability that the internet gave us to communicate directly with one another, without need for mediation by the traditional media. But we will cease to be “progressive” if we allow it to continue to be subsumed within the Democratic party. The independent channels we established are quickly being filled by corporate money, and the upshot is that our arguments are being distorted and hijacked, and we are losing our best talent.
The blogosphere is in transition from a volunteer model, where people worked on passion alone. But we cannot expect people to continue to work endlessly on a volunteer basis. They’re burning out. I know several progressives that I have tremendous respect for who have received lucrative offers both from the Pete Peterson Foundation and the organization that Peterson is funding to build public support for cutting Medicare and Social Security, AmericaSpeaks (who just received $4 million in funding from the Peterson, Pew and Kellogg Foundations). Some of these people have been able to say no; others didn’t feel they were in the position to do so. Look at their National Advisory Committee for AmericaSpeaks (PDF). If it doesn’t depress you, it should. There are people with solid progressive histories who are lending their names and their credibility to Peterson’s “wolf in sheep’s clothing” effort to undermine the New Deal.
They would not be part of an effort headed by a guy who wants to reopen debtor’s prisons if there was a vital progressive movement that could fund their work.
Corporate money flowing through the conservative movement financed its rise to power. Consequently, the right has been able to develop and nurture young talent where the (genuine) left has not because they have plenty of corporate money at their disposal to do so. Creating career paths for talented youth was a key tenet of Lewis Powell’s 1971 memo for the Chamber of Commerce, in which he outlined his vision for a conservative infrastructure funded by corporate money.
But that money also muzzled the conservative message into incoherence. Those on the right decrying “bailouts” have never been able to turn their turrets around and fire on the Chamber of Commerce itself, whose $100 million-a-year lobbying budget has orchestrated virtually every one of those bailouts. To do so would mean that their access to Chamber money flowing to them in one form or another would come to an end.
During the Bush years, the online left successfully constructed a powerful progressive counter-narrative that challenged the orthodoxies of elite media surrounding the Iraq war. That counter-narrative was embraced and promoted by Barack Obama and the Democratic party, who harvested its energy and used it to take control of the White House and both houses of Congress.
But since the 2008 election, the principle agenda of Barack Obama, Rahm Emanuel and the Democratic Party has been to siphon off the financial patronage that the GOP has long enjoyed. And they do that by successfully fulfilling corporate ambitions that have not changed. Disgraced neoliberal corporatists are all too willing to wrap themselves in the mantle of “progressivism” as a way to re-brand a product that the public no longer wanted to buy.
Progressives thought they had won a battle for the soul of America. What they got was a battle for control of K Street.
All of this has had a serious impact within the online progressive movement. There has already been significant “brain drain” as people with solid online skills are now in high demand by a variety of institutions with deep pockets. Some have been directly snapped up by the corporate world. Others have been pulled into the Democratic party infrastructure, or into organizations that derive very lucrative revenue streams now that the Democrats have pried K Street out of the hands of the GOP and cracked open the piggy bank.
It’s all corporate money, one way or another. It appears because those on the giving end are getting something of value in return. Much of it has gone straight into the pockets of people whose initial entry into online politics was fueled by idealism, and it has strongly incentivized them to support and promote the Democratic party even when it is working diligently in opposition to the values that inspired them in the first place.
Equally debilitating is the money that has come from the think tanks and other liberal institutions that depend on corporate and foundation money to sustain them. The message is not always communicated in overt ways, but it is there: the availability of that money is dependent on the success of the Democratic party. Criticize the party, and their agenda, at your own peril. Thus organizations that used to be vociferous in their criticism of corporatist Democrats like Evan Bayh and Blanche Lincoln when Bush was in office have grown mute. Many bloggers who receive their financial support from these entities have grown timid about criticizing White House policy that would have sent them into paroxysms of anxiety if George Bush had done likewise.
The institutions on the left that have continued to meaningfully pursue a progressive agenda are those that are financially independent of the web of influence spun by the Democratic party. Political independence is a direct function of financial independence. The unions, which have a reliable source of funding in the form of member dues, have thus been the most reliable advocates for middle class economic interests over the years.
With the advent of email, MoveOn has also been able to build an online distributive funding model that depends on small dollar donations for their financial support. They can now send a fundraising email for a small fraction of the cost of one piece of direct mail, which was formerly the primary way in which member-based organizations could solicit donations. Other online organizations have imitated the MoveOn model, and likewise enjoy a measure of financial independence: DFA, PCCC and FDL among them.
It is no coincidence that those organizations were the ones that joined together to support Bill Halter in his race against Blanche Lincoln, which meant opposing the White House and the Democratic establishment. They were the only ones that could.
The MoveOn model, however, has its own flaws. Money is primarily raised when people are passionate about an issue in the headlines, and thus fundraising is both unpredictable and frequently tied to application only within specific campaigns rather than covering operating costs. It severely limits the ability to plan and build, and inherently rewards organizations for watering down their message to reach the broadest possible base.
If we do not accept the challenge of developing new independent funding models, we can see our future in the fate that has befallen the big nonprofits. That’s why it’s critical for Firedoglake’s readers, commenters, activists, and supporters to help us build the next phase of our important work. We need to raise at least $50,000 by June 30, and the only way we can do so is with your help.
Masaccio has written about the interlocking relations among the social upper class, giant corporations, and policy planning networks. “The large single-issue groups are limited because they are dependent on money from the Power Elite, the upper class, and their hired hands from the professional class,” he notes. They take on bloated budgets and staffs that can only be sustained by corporate money, and there is no incentive for corporate money to show up unless the institution is going to play a role in fulfilling elite goals.
Online advertising helps supplement blog income, but thus far has not been able to generate revenue sufficient to cover operating costs. Google’s monopoly is globally suppressing online ad revenues, and print advertising has simply not had an effective transition to the online model. Advertising revenues cover roughly 5-8% of FDL’s monthly operating costs. The rest of the money comes from small dollar online donations.
Siun, Scarecrow, Masaccio, Marcy and I are exploring a variety of models that take advantage of the ability the internet grants to connect quickly and directly with large numbers of people in order to sustain FDL. We also work together to carefully examine our organizational costs and revenues to make sure that we’re operating in the most efficient way, such that we maintain the ability to provide a space for progressive media and advocacy that is scaled to the income we can realistically derive from independent sources.
But unless progressives accept the challenge of financially supporting organizations that advocate for their values on a regular basis, the only other option organizations have to keep the doors open is from a flow that stems from corporate capital. And while corporate capital is not inherently toxic, once it provides a percentage of an organization’s operating budget such that the organization cannot exist without it, the ability to speak and act independent of its influence becomes limited.
In order for the progressive community to continue to grow, there must be a cultural shift from funding personalities and the “outrage du jour.” Progressive organizations need regular, predictable sources of revenue that allow them to plan and grow. Those organizations, in kind, must accept the challenge of operating at a size that can be supported by a broad membership base, or they can never be truly independent from the interests of their elite donors. Their own success in advocating for progressive interests will trigger the call that cuts the purse strings.
FDL is a remarkable place and we want to be able to provide security for our staff that their financial needs will be met. We also want our community to be able to rely on us to be here, even when we threaten the corporate hegemony that exerts such a pernicious influence on the content of most media outlets. If progressives want true progressive organizations to exist, we all have to consciously build and support them. I’m asking for your help to do that. Because without it, “new media” will fall to the same pitfalls that destroyed the ability of “old media” to act as a credible and reliable fourth estate.



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You got my donation Jane… Keep up the fantastic work all of you do for our Progressive Causes!! Thanks!!
1) $20 coming today.
2) Thank you!
3) Paragraph 5 “we funds” –> “we fund”
I’m in. I’m so proud of FDL and the work that is done here.
Thank you so much. We could not do it without you.
Fixed!
Thanks. Proofreading is a contribution, too.
;)
Thank you, Twain. You have always been such a great supporter. We really appreciate it.
How do I double my monthly contribution?
We long-term unemployed do what little we can. And pale in comparison to you. You hero.
Speaking of fighting for what you believe in, check this out.
That means a lot. You have no idea. We really, really appreciate it.
I’m already a monthly donor.
I’d like to suggest that people “rethink” the donations that they’ve probably been giving to what we now know are “veal pen” organizations, particularly the environmental ones and ones purportedly protecting a woman’s right to choose.
If you’ve given to ANY of these folks, take a look at what they’ve done for us in the last 18 months. Compare that to what FDL has done, and what it can do, and direct your donation here instead. You’ll be much more likely to get the result you’re interested in — a better environment, protection of women’s rights — than you will if you donate to the folks who toddle up to the White House for planning lunches with Rahm.
I’m in. Don’t always agree, but I’d rather have you around than not. Good luck.
I’ve already given Jane but if the Senate ever passes the UI funding, I’ll double it. Until then, I have to hang on to every penny. I’m sure you understand.
I’ve been declining requests for donations to many of the groups I’ve given to for years because my family is struggling financially.
But there is no more valuable cause than keeping FDL afloat, and I will gladly contribute whatever I can. The work being done here is consistently superb. Far and away the best place on the internet for news and opinion.
Davis brought “civil liberties” to Honduras. He also is planning “Civil liberties” for Equatorial Guinea.
Jane,
Great article. But I think you may be too quick to criticize those on the America Speaks Advisory Board. If some of those progressive groups weren’t there, the language and agenda of America Speaks would have ZERO input from those who represent the concerns of regular Americans who oppose cutting entitlements. Just because they are there, does not mean they support Peterson and his agenda. We need groups there to raise the concerns of regular Americans hurting from this recession since Peterson clearly will not provide those viewpoints himself.
And those of us who are broke from financing our kids’ college educations and now must watch them search unsuccessfully for employment give what we can as well.
Good thoughts to you, Hmmm.
Got a fundraising email from the Sierra Club this morning. I’d rather increase my monthly donation here than give it to them.
The “turn their turrets around and fire” metaphor appeals to me because I’m a former tank commander. I want FDL’s main gun to be able to traverse 360 degrees.
I was very disappointed and dropped out of MoveOn, when the membership voted to endorse health care without a public option. President Obama campaigned for the public option, and against the individual mandate.
I hope you wrote back to tell them exactly why!
I long ago consigned the Sierra Club to the spam folder, along with MoveOn.org. They have both moved into the veal pen.
Thank you, Mauimom. You’re the best.
I totally understand Margaret. Take care of yourself.
I don’t always agree with you either, but I believe that in a two-party system, either you are a progressive first and a Democrat second, or you’re a bad Democrat. FDL and I don’t square completely, but y’all have done your best to pursue that principle when others have criticized you.
I’m donating here – I’d hope that in response, people will donate to their local Legal Aid organizations, which are the groups that provide civil legal assistance that ensure people facing foreclosure have a fighting chance to keep their homes and that those who should be receiving unemployment benefits can keep their children fed and power on.
Click here to find your local Legal Aid organizations, how you can help them, and how they may be able to help you.
Or maybe I’ll get this administrative assistant job. It’s a bit beneath my pay grade but I could live on in. :-)
Not yet. I’ll do that tonight.
Good luck with that Margaret. Man I REALLY hope that does work out for ya.
Got my fingers and toes crossed. Best wishes.
Fingers crossed for you. Keep the faith.
I dumped MoveOn long ago. When they had to ask the membership whether or not to resist the wars colour me gone.
Sending lost of positive vibs yer way. I’ve been working way below my pay grade for years but I’ve still got a job. Good thing I’ve always lived simply.
I’m sure that’s what they tell themselves. But I’ve heard more than one progressive look at these names and it legitimizes the AmericaSpeaks message, which will not be influenced one whit by what they have to say. That’s not what Pete Peterson is writing $189 million checks for.
There is no free lunch.
But welcome to FDL. This appears to be your first comment. If you’re associated with any organization that has an interest in this issue, or takes money from Peterson, that is something you should disclose.
I’d love to comment, but JH has me banned for being a premature advocate of re-evaluating the alliance with the Democrats. Ironic, yes?
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is up: The New Republic’s Chait Puzzled by Liberals’ “Curious Sense of Disappointment” with Obama
Precisely the same point I left.
Jane,
I contributed several days ago, although it was a small amount, it made me feel good to help FDL in any way possible. FDL is really like fresh air to a lot of us. Without it we would simply suffocate.
Please continue your good works as well as the good works of your other FDL staffers! May I suggest that you also let some of us know how else we can help, even though it may not be financial support. I do not have the ability to donate a lot, but I am more then willing to donate my talents.
I think tere a lot of folks who are here daily that are in the same financial situation, but would like to offer their respective talents. Point us in the right direction Jane.
Peace!
Jane, is there a form to increase my monthly contribution?
Thanks you so much edve, and that’s a great suggestion. And thanks for your support.
I’m not able to make a monthly contribution yet, but I can (and did) make a one-timer. I greatly appreciate FDL!
Thanks, Jane.
One more fund-raising thought: yesterday was my birthday. At my age, my husband and I have entirely too much “stuff,” and always request that any “birthday presents” take the form of a donation to a worthy group.
I suggest that folks in a similar situation — or with similar ideals — ask that “presents” to them take the form of a donation to FDL.
Fathers’ Day is coming up. I can think of no better way to honor our fathers than to contribute to FDL, a force for maintaining the values on which our country was founded.
As a matter of fact, I’m going to hop right over to the site now and “honor my husband” with a donation, and give myself a belated birthday present of an additional one as well.
Thanks for the positive waves everybody. The good news is that I can finally get back into a size ten so I have a lot more to wear than just my blue suit, which is a little big on me now.
I don’t think we can adjust an existing monthly contribution, that’s something between you and your bank.
But you can always add another here: https://secure.firedoglake.com/page/contribute/fdlrec
Thanks so much, SD. You rock.
Just sent some money, Jane, along with some extra on behalf of those who can’t donate at present. I can’t think of any entity more worth supporting than FDL. You, the crew, and this place are more indispensable than ever.
Ah, so. Going to the credit union this afternoon as a matter o’ fact. If we get paid, that is. *g* Boss went off until Wed and ain’t nobody seen a paycheck yet today.
Would be a treat if we could get to $20,000 by the end of the day. Right?
Sorry Jane. You allow people to contribute to FDL and think they do something. That’s not far enough nor is creating another Moveon, this one manned by true progressives a solution.
You might meditate on what went wrong with health care, the whips, petitions, faxes and phone calls falling on deaf ears ending without the promised public option.
The answer IMHO requires creating the ability to decide things together via the internet. Rather than a Moveon whose executive committee wants only contributions not real input despite the numerous polls, can we create a community where decisions are reached by consensus? No Betrayus ads by the powers that be, but a community whose acts are controlled by the community itself. There are, as I see it, two problems. (1) the individual community members don’t want the responsibility and (2) the leaders do not want to surrender authority. Before we fix society, we must fix ourselves.
I’m in for Legal Aid, have been for years.
Sorry my contribution wasn’t larger, but like many others, I’ve been chronically under or unemployed for almost two years now, and it takes a financial toll.
I find that very strange. We are always asked what we think about things. This is not a top-down group and I’m amazed that you think it is.
I’m amazed that you think it isn’t.
TRUTH!!
I contribute what I can to FDL because I want to continue to have access to the information here. I don’t view this as making a “political” contribution, any more than I view my CounterPunch contribution as political. These are sources of information I value, and I want to pay to help keep them viable. FDL polled its members to determine its stance on marijuana legalization, for example. What is it exactly that you wish to “fix” about FDL?
I had a boss do that to me once. When I didn’t show up the next day or the one after, he got back on the third day and paid us. Then and only then did I go back to work. Yes it was a different time but by law you have to be paid at the agreed upon time. My boss never tried to pull that crap again, though he let it be known on several occasions after that how getting back on Wednesday to pay us was putting him out.
Are we reading the same blog???
I would like to donate to FDL. So, I will check it out.
I think the turning point I saw was when FDL gave Kucinish a contribution to stand firm on single payer and he just tossed it out.
After that, what can you do?
You’re leaving me horses’ heads! eeeekkkkk
I just found out that my weird cat likes Oreo Funstix™
I received a check from Senator Kucinich in reimbursement for the contribution you refer to. While I was extremely unhappy that he acted as he did, he at least returned the contributions.
I would argue that the alliance between progressives and the Democratic Party during the Bush years did great harm to the progressive movement. Had progressives seen it as a time to shape the Democratic Party (the way Tea Partiers on the right are doing now with the Republican Party), both the progressive movement and the Democratic Party would be much better off today. What’s the point about yelling about the assholishness of Republicans, then or now?
MUCH better than getting left a horse’s ass IMO.
LOL
We have and we know. In fact this is one place where it was all examined in great detail.
I missed it. What went wrong?
Oh, please.
I commented and wrote here for a while during the HCR debate and have continued reading since. You need to spend more time here if you think that Jane and others at FDL aren’t interested in hearing the views of the community and in getting feedback.
Hey, Knox. Where have you been?
Hello, Firedoglakers(lakees?) I hope you will respond kindly as I delurk after over a year of almost daily reading of your blog.
I am a midwestern, homeschooling, Southern Baptist, wife and mother of three. The term “conservative” might be to the left of me. I honestly can’t think of anything I’ve read over the last year here that I could agree with. But I felt very strongly the need to delurk today to tell you that I have nothing but respect for Ms. Hamsher, the writers and commenters here. It’s absolutely admirable the way you all have “stuck to your guns” on your beliefs and your absolute consistency shows, I think, a great deal of integrity. I firmly believe that if more people exhibited such integrity and consistency that our country would be the better for it. There are many issues on which we will never be able to agree, but there are just as many issues that we could find common ground if only everyone on both sides of the debate would have a “Say what you mean and mean what you say” attitude.
I wish you all well.
Mary
Again, ekunin can’t be talked about the same FDL I read.
Welcome and the term we use is usually “pups” or even firepups. I’ve been known to use kaji koinu. :-)
White Knights my friend White Knights!!
Yours is a kind, kind soul, mauimom. Thanks much, and best wishes to you and yours.
The UNhooded variety!
Dam I will see if I can find one of them they would be VERY useful at times…LOL
By the way best of luck in find employment.. I have been there and done that over 7 years of NO job except what I could do.. I had to do consulting to make ends meet until SS kicked in last year.. Don’t mess with my SS
Thanks nahant. I still have 17 to 20 years to wait if indeed it isn’t totally discarded by then. One thing for sure: if they eliminate the program, we’d all BETTER demand the money we’ve paid in back!
Never happen. Need the money to fight the war with Canada.
FDL must become much larger. Right now we preach to the choir. I think we need to organize on local levels, the same state political subdivisions (towns and cities) that elect state, federal and local representatives. I believe representative democracy as practiced in this country is broken beyond repair for several reasons, not the least of which is our elected officials lack the self assertiveness to depart from the party line.
My federal representative, the Democrat Jim Himes, ran as anti-war. He ran in a district that had been solidly republican for years. As a member of congress he voted for every military appropriation that came down the pike.
I’m not sure what FDL can or should do, but it’s something to talk about. I don’t think clicking on a box that says you are for or against marijuana does that much. Maybe we should talk about how we might go about legalizing marijuana nationally. I’m not sure what issue grabs most of us. We have different axes to grind. We need the network first. After that anything is possible.
Thats for sure Margret,thats for sure. The bastards have been trying since the New Deal to rescind all of the reforms and go back to the Gilded Age where the Rich have everything and the rest of us eat Cake!!…& Die young..
The problem I see here is that we are “small people.” We simply don’t have the resources of a sugar daddy as the wingnuts do. For us, we give what we can, even though the value to us of FDL is priceless.
The wingnuts seem not to be bothered by the hypocrisy and paradoxes that their statements and actions show. The progressives and wannabe progressives generally try to be consistent. The rightwingers don’t seem to realize that they have been neutered or they are proud of it.
It seems to me that there isn’t a large body of people calling themselves progressive that wouldn’t be willing to turn quickly and bite FDL. Raising money for them might be hard to justify after a couple of bites. The big boys that have the money don’t really seem interested in helping anyway. Probably because they know that they would quickly lose control of the message.
I monitor FDL daily. I don’t comment that much because I see things differently and I don’t see much point ringing around that rosy. This thread is an exception.
W00T $8 away from 10 K Way to go FIREPUPS!!
I have not forgotten You. FDL to receive my contribution by snail mail by June 25th, 2010. Carry on. Thank you so much for remembering the Wikileaks folks who need our protection.
No. It totally isn’t. And your calling it that doesn’t change that reality. Sorry. This is very typical of FDL threads.
Someone or ones gave $1k… w00T indeed!
Let’s just ignore ekunin. If he/she reads this blog regularly, then h/s knows the comments that h/s is making are silly. If h/s doesn’t read regularly, then it’s not worth responding anyway. ekunin seems simply to be acting in sophisticated trollish behavior.
I saw that. Thanks, whoever you are! (she said, speaking out of turn)
Yes, I agree. One area where the FDL community could IMHO improve might be in refusing to allow people with strongly expressed minority opinions to distract and redirect the excellent conversations we have in comments. Personally I’m not in favor of excessive moderation, so the only other remedy is to simply not engage with commenters who seek to be disruptive to the discussion. This has been a particular problem recently, I’ve noticed.
International Hmmm of mystery, at yr service.
W00W I just saw that… Kudos to all who give…and those who wish they could… We will keep this the same community it has been for years…Progressive and for as the Chairman Bee Pee said “The small People”
ya mean there have been TROLLS on the loose?? Drat
:-)
I did not mean this is an exceptional thread. I meant only that it deals with something that interests me(not that other threads aren’t interesting)and so I responded to several posts.
I might add calling a person with a different opinion a troll doesn’t strike me as all that progressive.
My check is in the mail. Great work here, firepups!
When did I call you a troll?
You didn’t but that seems to be the intent of some comments.
Like most of the contributors here, I’ve been thinking about ideas like yours. We have a long way to go; we are not strong enough to do it yet, organizationally or otherwise. As Jane says, we need to figure out a funding model that will leave us independent of corporate interests as a very first step. Any thoughts on that?
No, I didn’t. So if you take exception to name calling, please call those individuals out and not me. I had nothing to do with it.
H/s is not refering to you, but to me at 83 and Hmmm at 85. What we were refering to was that h/s made the point of saying that most of the time @45 FDL is a topdown thread which was disputed by Twain at @48 and reiterated by ekunin @49. After making that point h/s continued to try to beat on the point and I commented that it was “trollish behavior” and Hmmm agreed. We both felt that it was an attempt to hijack the thread and should be ignored.
This is one of the more interesting posts I’ve read this week. I’m at the place Jane mentioned of passionate burn out. It’s nice that some people at least are being approached by corporate backed veal pens. Not all of us even get that call because we are either too agressively fighting the corporate interests or are not considered a Very Serious Person.
Being named after a TV character probably doesn’t help.
I feel like Wendy Whiner these days talking about my confusion that none of the groups I thought could/would pay me to help them did. I now see via Jane’s posts about the Veal pens part of the reason why.
What is interesting to me is the way the right wing financial infrasture can support vicious crazy people as long as their goals don’t attack the corporate interests. Would Freedom works keep getting corporate money if the tea partiers started showing up at banks and Wall Street headquarters with their Guns?
Having worked for years helping corporations and executives tell their stories I know how powerful their money spigot can be on an organization. Frankly it is what I used against K S F O.
I thought I was very clever the way I did my whole campaign. But unlike the wingnuts welfare workers on the right there are as many homes for people on the left who want to keep fighting uncompromisingly. FDL can be that place for a few people.
If I’m lucky I can re enter the “real world” of cautious statements and generic messaging that isn’t effective but at least doesn’t offend.
PS , my contribution to FDL activism today is my diary Oil Crud in Worker’s Lungs. EPA’s failure. http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/55435.
It’s about why workers won’t be getting respirators anytime soon. I’ve been coordinating and getting support from Michael Whitney, Dr. Kirk, Suzanne and other folks here.
True but the sentence was in the box labeled “Replying to Margaret”.
(Obviously we’re getting OT here.)
You may mean me. FWIW I don’t consider you a troll and intended to be reacting only to the general issue. Re-reading my @85, obviously my “Yes, I agree” was a badly chosen way to express that, particularly as an opening, and it’d be quite reasonable for you to think I was talking about you specifically. I didn’t mean that, and I’m sorry I expressed myself so badly.
I do think the general topic is valid and important: commenters who go to a hard core position and stick there and post excessively after having already had their say. We do let that class of side discussion become the main conversation too frequently, and only self discipline will fix that.
Actually I did a bad job writing that. My fault. I wouldn’t call ekunin a troll, especially compared to some of the other much more extreme and personally caustic behavior we’ve seen recently.
Again, I said “trollish behavior.” After a commentor has made a point about the thread and several people have said that the comment is not valid, then continuing is trollish behavior because it is an attempt to divert the discussion. Usually I don’t say such a thing more than once and only occasionally. I felt that the whole thread today was more important than to try to convince ekunin that h/s was diverting from the point. I certainly would not want to keep anyone from commenting, but just keep it to the point unless there is something important to add that is OT.
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Certainly didn’t mean to put words in your mouth either, nor to criticize you. I was responding to ekunin in case ekunin meant me. In fact I agree with your general approach, was my original point.
As per the late JR ‘Bob’ Dobbs, you could refer to a troll as she/he/it.
Banned? Funny, this is the second comment I’ve seen from you today.
Are you a ghost, or just someone who won’t acknowledge that Nader wanted Bush to win in 2000? Or that Republicans have given millions of dollars and tons of support to the Greens over the years precisely (such as in Texas just last week) to siphon off those progressives who could have worked to change the Democratic Party for the better, as well as to ensure GOP victories. (In fact, the Pennsylvania Green Party was owned, funded and operated by the local GOP!)
If the Democrats are all identical to the Republicans, why was it so important to the Arkansas Chamber of Commerce that Bill Halter not beat out Blanche Lincoln in the AR-Senate primary?
It really takes some nerve to come in here and argue with people whose salaries you’re trying to take away by killing a fundraising effort aimed at paying them.
“Troll” doesn’t even begin to touch it.
Hello, Knoxville! Glad to see you here.
Your continued presence at FDL, despite (or maybe because of?) the heated disagreements I would have with you over various issues, is proof of what you say.
Hi, Spoocko! Nice to see you, too!
You’ve done far more than your share, dear. You’re amazing.
maybe this spells it out better!!
Jane
Thank you!
I’m struggling a bit with that “authority” thing myself, given certain recent events. It was only a few weeks ago that some were threatened with banning or ostracism for advocating a break with the Dems before Jane was quite ready. That burned. More recently, rank and arbitrary censorship has taken place many times in the Comments threads, and that sucks even worse. FDL is great, and I want to support it, but I need to see some remediation on those issues. I can’t support censorship or intimidation for merely being ahead of the herd, or even just having a different POV. If this letter reflects what is to be the new FDL order, then the whole, “You don’t own this blog, Jane does” thing had to get adjusted to reflect free speech values to a much greater degree.
Thank you and best wishes. Mayhaps at some point you will come across an idea or issue where we will have common ground.
Be good to yourself, and all other living things.
Namaste
Thanks for all you do. I look forward to donating!
Yes, by all means, let’s eliminate ALL THE MINORITY OPINIONS !!!!!! Then we can burn away the hours telling each other how very smart we are for agreeing with each other about absolutely everything. We don’t need no stinking “marketplace of ideas.”
This particular puirveyor of occasional minority opinions was way out in front, along with many others, in advocating a break from the Dems. We took a mighty lot of shit for it, too. Think about it.
If nobody else here speaks up to reject this misguided concept, I’m gonna blow a fucking gasket. The correct course is the opposite, open up the discussion guidelines and minimize the role of the Moderators. Sheesh.
BTW, this comment will be “awaiting Moderator approval,” just as has been the case all fucking year.
No, it’s not, but it’s become a very fashionable thing to do of late.
Do tell. Many of us having similar ideas and philosophies makes us a herd?
And you were both wrong to do that. Please have the grace to admit it.
There is a serious issue as to whether we want unanimity of opinion, or freedom of thought and expression. Can’t have both. I don’t want the former. I don’t want censorship.
This is a matter that deserves serious consideration and discussion. It’s unfortunate that donations are requested just as the issue seems to be coming to a head in the Ccomments threads.
A new independent progressive movement funded by individual donations sounds great to me. But just what kind of a movement are we going to be?
The rule is, “Shut up if several people say they disagree?” Does it matter at all who those “several people” are, or whether they’re completely out of line or wrong?
I think many here need to read up on nthe meaning and purpose of the First Amendment, especially now if we’re turning into a progressive movement with ownership society features, i.e, direct, regular donations.
I forget, is ignoring a comment the same as censoring it?
Is criticizing a minority view the same as censoring it?
Peace/out.
He’s right on his issue, PW. This new direction for FDL has long been advocated by many, including myself, and we were threatened with banning for it and took a lot of shit from those who did not yet see the need for the new direction Jane has now adopted. He has raised a valid free speech issue, and we should deal with it honestly if we mean to move forward together.
I sent Jane an email on this very issue early this morning.
SD, I’m referring very specifically to those who advocated a break from the Dem party long before Jane was willing to consider it. (My comment lost the end of that sentence in the Submitting.) We took a lot of shit for advocating that, and some came from Jane herself. It raises the whole larger issue of whether we are going to be open to ideas and opinions, or just expected to follow the leader.
I thought I made myself clear last night- censoring is when you submit a comment, and it never appears because the Mod has decided to “disappear” it in its entirety. Was happening to me all night last night, and many other times. Nobody could even know a response was submitted. Recall the immediate appearance of a cheap-shot artists at the end to imply I’d been scared off? NO, I was censored repeatedly–comments disappeared by the Mod. Not moderated, not certain words deleted. Just rank, wholesale censorship, apparently because of the opinion expressed.
The impression I get from your comments is that Jane, and by extension those of us who agree with her direction, are not allowed to attempt something and fail. Only by starting a 3rd party would we have avoided the pitfalls of HCR, primaries, etc. Only by accomplishing something nobody else has been able to accomplish in the last 50 or so years will we be met with approval and manna from heaven will descend upon us. We must be perfect, never lose a case, never lose a campaign. I’ll stick to the real world, thank you very much.
The one thing the ardent supporters of a 3rd party were not, and still aren’t, willing to admit is that there is no viable 3rd party and won’t be for some time. Many of them spoke as if there was a 3rd party out there we could all run to. There wasn’t and there isn’t. Nor do I see Jane advocating for one now and I agree. George Soros is not gonna swoop down to the Lake and lay a few million bucks on us to get one started either. Unless and until there is a viable 3rd party we’re stuck with working within the system we have.
I wrote Google with my idea for a grass roots network. I thought it made sense for them in terms of local advertising, local Craig like lists. My pet project is putting local town check books on line so citizens can see where their money goes. That idea doesn’t get traction. I haven’t heard back from Google. Google’d be a good source of money and expertise. Maybe we should talk about something that might interest them. I don’t know what that might be.
Jane-I’m not sure you mean me when you say I stand against paying the salaries of the people who make this place run and that exceeds Trollish behavior. That’s not so. If I could afford it, and who knows, maybe someday I will, I’m all for paying them as much as you’d like or even as much as they’d like. At the end of the day that means more of the same (except with happier employees). I don’t think that’s good enough.
Third party was advocated. Militant street demonstrations were advocated. Breaking with the Democratic Party was advocated.
It’s not that any one idea had to be adopted, rather, it’s that the right to submit new ideas should be respected much more than it was. Jane and FDL are, indeed, the best thing that’s happened in 50 years, but if we are now to move into a new phase, I want to know that individual expression will be a key component of the new way. Every true progressive should agree with that, IMO.
[modnote: once again, FDL does not advocate violence.]
Ironically, some of my comments on this very thread have apparently been disappeared. Unbelievable.
MODERATOR: I don’t advocate violence, either, and did not do so here. My use of the word “militant” was meant to convey only “noisy and persistent.” Violence would only get us killed, and I know that.
I’m done rehashing the 3rd party debate. Waste of my time.
Street demonstrations. How many demonstrations have you organized or been a part of? Seven years my anti-war group was in the streets. We were on the local news, in the local rag, on YouTube. Our largest turnouts were when the heat erected barricades to prevent us from being on a sidewalk. Even with that a Pride parade draws more people. This isn’t 1968-69.
Breaking with the Democratic Party. Where ya gonna go? Circular argument back to 3rd party.
Individual expression. That’s fine but I’m not gonna engage in discussions about things that I know aren’t viable.
Tighten it up, SD. Jane is advocating a break with the Democratic Party right now–read her post.
The point is not that you have to agree with a specific idea–of course you don’t. The point is that people should not get threatened with banning, or get censored, for having and expressing their own good faith ideas. Surely you can agree with that? If you think a particular idea is not viable, you don’t have to engage it. Just scroll. Just like I do.
The issue is, if FDL is going to exist and function based on our direct donations, how much freedom of speech do/should we get in return? Without free speech, what you have is just another variety of authoritarianism, and I reject that.
I just gladly paid a $50 troll fee to get this fundraiser back on track.
I just paid my $50. Fee speech anyone?
I see her direction as supporting candidates who are willing to buck both parties and have a track record of doing so. Call it anything you like.
I have no intention of getting involved in your pissing contest with the mods.
You’re much worse than a troll. You’re hijacking a thread and trying to keep people from being paid because they’re not performing to your standards.
You can’t preach about “insufficient liberalism” and practice ruthless authoritarianism.
Don’t use “free speech” as a crutch. You’re trying to mess with a fundraiser that would pay the mods a really modest salary for their work because you broke the rules, engaged in hate speech and they did their jobs and took your comments out.
The reason we have to have mods in the first place is because of comments like those, which get picked up by Bill O’Reilly and the next thing you know we’re under attack. On top of necessitating the mods and then giving them a hard time when they do their jobs, you now are in here relentlessly trying to make sure they won’t be paid.
All in all, extremely petty behavior. I expected better of you. If you want your arguments to be respected, take your complaints to a thread where you won’t be doing so much collateral damage — unless that is your intention.
Perhaps a bit OT…
but a historical perspective about freedom to speak out
Quote:
…Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the FDL bloggers
and I did not speak out
because I was not a FDL blogger.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
We are close to crossing this rubicon soon with the Corp/media subverting and perverting everything…and the next step will be to arrive at your doorstep in the middle of the night and it won’t be to give ya a handshake!
FDL and it’s staff are fighting the good fight and are one of the few organizations doing so!
Credit union said that since I pay via debit card the change has to come from the Lake. I’ll do it the easy way and just donate as a single each month on the 18th, which I’m gonna go do now.
I was going to set up a recurring $50 donation, but will double that to cover what you’re unable to do now.
Jane, I really appreciate the work you and your team does. Keep it up!
I can’t donate now as I am a full time student with no discretionary income (buying groceries is a stretch some weeks) but I just want to say a big thank you to everyone who is able to donate at this time… if you can donate, please donate big for those of us who are unemployed or in school and can’t contribute right now!!! If you have money, that’s a big deal in today’s economy. Make the most of it and pitch in!
I doubled my monthly donation earlier. You’re covered. I’ve been there, twice.
Welcome to the Lake.
Namaste
I think the mods here do a really good job. If it were not for them I probably would not be here and would not likely recommend it to friends. I don’t know if there is a school for mods but I wouldn’t mind if one of them wrote a book on modding. I think they must learn a lot about human nature, how to discriminate between the inadvertent pains in the ass from the intentional disrupting trolls, how to gently move things along etc. I hardly notice they are here. Sometimes I wish they were more forceful. We’ve all been in the classrooms and meetings where the self-centered, the argumentative, were allowed to crap up the place.
IMO FDL is fortunate to have these mods and they should be paid well.
I totally Agree Jane and well said… Kudos!!
We love our mods. They do an amazing job.
Thank you for that!
And they Are nice people ☺ truly nice people… I give them Kudos for what they do & do as gently as possible… They & the rules is what makes me a loyal commenter! ☺ ☺ I care a lot about my FDL friends.
Yes they do – each and every one.
Self moderating is a talent I still struggle with. So to many of the comments on this thread I will just say:
Grrrrrr.
Grrrrr and bowwow.
Eli is upstairs!
Mediamnesia
FDL is the model I sincerely wish the rest of the blogosphere would emulate and strive to be like. Great founders like Jane, great posts by a talented crew, and intelligent mods that use great discretion in monitoring commentary. FDL always aims at elevating the discourse and attempting to fairly honor all aspects of a lively exchange. This alone is worthy of support in an age where MSM and other media outlets attempt to ‘dumb down’ the populace.
Thanks again FDL! I sincerely hope the support goal exceeds the $50K well before July!
‘helping you folks to keep it up–you are very important to us!
Any amount is difficult these days, but I just sent $10 via PayPal and I think I can do that monthly.
This isn’t a difficult decision to make when one considers just how utterly failed the efforts to reform the Democrats from within are. It’s not a pleasant truth to have to accept, let alone acknowledge publicly. But in order for FDL or any other progressive organization to make substantive change in this country, there really is no other option left than to finally disconnect from the Democrats. The Republicans are our enemies, but so are the Democrats, and the old adage of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” does not apply when the ally you picked to fight against a common foe has chosen instead to side with that foe against you.
I’m glad that you’re making genuine efforts to break from the Democrats, but I’m afraid it’s going to have to be a more complete break than maybe you’re comfortable with. That $50,000 you’re trying to raise for FDL is an example of the kind of money-raising this site is capable of when its owners put their minds to it. So why not expend efforts to independent political parties, like the Progressives in Vermont and Washington, and the Greens? Because it’s going to take much, much more than running primary opponents who are only marginally to the left of today’s extreme right-wing Democrats in order to get that party back to its New Deal values; it’s going to require running strong third parties from the left, the REAL left, to cost right-wing Democrats their positions in government. The threat of GOP victories if Democrats lose, something they excel at without independents running in three-way races anyway, no longer serves as an excuse to sit down and shut up until the next election cycle.
I’m sending out the challenge, Ms. Hamsher, to throw down the gauntlet and raise money not only for FDL and its sister organization(s) but for third party candidates as well. I’m asking for stories promoting Progressive Party, Green Party, and even Socialist Party candidates — front page stories. Is it not time to finally do something beyond what we’ve been doing?
I see. So the guy refuses to join in the blame-Nader-for-Bush hatefest, and you think that’s grounds for questioning his motives. This is why progressives cannot develop a coherent organization; they’d rather snipe at each other and engage in personality-driven disputes than consider that guys like Nader had it right all along and we were simply being too petulant to listen, convinced as many of us were that we were right and he was wrong.
Just because your insults got edited out of your comments in a thread pertaining to Israel doesn’t mean that FDL has become Kos-light. (For the record, one of my comments was edited to remove a line as well.) You went on the attack against people and chose to hurl insults. If you don’t like what the moderators do in response, then perhaps you should reconsider what you’ve chosen to write thus far.
In defense of RB, you’re wrong. As Jane herself seems to finally be acknowledging, we have tried and failed with the work-from-within-the-Democratic-Party strategy. The end result was wasted years that could have been spent organizing a solid progressive movement that uses third parties as its vehicle for pressuring politicians who hold power. The goal, transforming the Democrats back into the party of FDR, Truman, and Johnson (without the war-making), was misconstrued. It was simply assumed that third party efforts were trying to rise up to prominence and replace the existing structure, when the truth was that we have been trying to build a movement.
And all the while, we’ve been facing nothing but insults, threats, and what amounts to collective political punishment on the blogs for daring to suggest that the strategy being pursued wasn’t working and that a different, more effective one is needed. We get shouted down, moderated, and banned by way of organized hit squads of trolls operating on behalf of the blog owners (as on Daily Kos and Open Left). We are ridiculed on those blogs we are allowed to post for the “crime” of being truly progressive and, most unforgivably, truly independent of a corrupt and failed system.
Ah but there were and there are viable third parties, and you know it. The Greens have been around for years, and although their organizational efforts can stand to benefit from a lot of improvement, there was never a time when progressives couldn’t have co-opted that party and built it up over the years that have been wasted trying to reform an increasingly fascist, totalitarian, corporate-controlled organization like the Democrats. And while many so-called progressives were throwing out insults and threats, and organizing efforts to deny ballot access to third parties on behalf of Democrats, the Progressive Party in Vermont rose up to become the most successful third party in the nation (which, by the way, has a long and proud history of successfully altering political landscapes).
No one has seriously argued that third parties would have toppled the Big Two. That was always a straw man, created by Democrat partisans to rationalize sticking with the status quo for the sake of further enabling the right-wing takeover of the Democrats. But we have argued that by throwing progressive support behind strong organizations from the left, we could force Democrats back to that ideological side and keep them there. After all, the far right has done something similar to keep Republicans firmly under its control, enjoying huge success in building its movement. That the far right already had gobs of money is less relevant than the movement’s efforts to take control of the system as a whole; it raised the funds as the means to an end. We on the left can and should be doing likewise.
Sorry, but that’s either an ad hominem or a straw man argument. Jane, I am unemployed and have been since 2007. Every passing day without finding work reduced my chances of finally obtaining it. I exist solely on financial aid from college right now, but that can’t and won’t last forever. Many of us here would donate if we could, and I am one of them. But we can’t. I think it’s fair, in light of the past four years of endless Democratic Party betrayals and the hijacking of what passes for a progressive movement in this country to further the dubious interests of the Democrats, to ask if our money-raising efforts could stand a change in method. I see no legitimate reason why we cannot offer ideas for how we can accomplish the ultimate goal we all seem to share. And I see nothing in ekunin’s comments that suggest he or she is being a troll in this thread.
I realize tempers here are running high, and mine is probably no exception, but maybe if we all took a breath, actually read what people are writing as opposed to reacting immediately and taking it as attacks, we would realize we’re all on the same boat and the same side.
Hi Michael, I’d like to say thanks for backing me up, but they’ve banned me again! FDL sure is turning over a new leaf!
good discussion with the Priesthood of the Least Worst, razorbrain, sorry I couldn’t be involved more. Notice how few took up the old cudgels in defense of the Donkey?
certain authoritarian mindsets have a visceral dislike of independence itself.
belated acknowledgment of blazingly obvious truths about the nature of the Democratic Party does not necessarily mean this tendency is in any way diminished.
one sign that a significant reappraisal has actually occurred would be fair treatment of those who had correctly appraised the real political situation in the USA long ago.
goon behavior in defense of cherished myths will never disappear, but it is notable that there are fewer and fewer who feel comfortable engaging in it with us. Remember the mega-threads around the Coakley race? That was a sea change, a large mass had turned, and now some astute Leader types are trying to get out in front of it.