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But the real story is even worse. According to a new report in Ha’aretz:
The Prime Minister’s Office issued a press release in English following the meeting, which was also sent to foreign diplomats, was substantially different than the Hebrew announcement – according to the English text, a decision was made to ease the blockade, but in the Hebrew text there was no mention of any such decision.
However, upon concluding the discussions, the ministers did not vote on any binding practical draft of the decision…
In addition to the English statement, word was sent to foreign consulates and embassies indicating that the decision made by the security cabinet will be implemented immediately. However, according to the officials charged with the actual monitoring of the transfer of goods into Gaza, they have not been notified of any change in policy as a result of the cabinet meeting…
Sources at the Prime Minister’s Office admitted that there was no decision, and no vote, during the security cabinet meeting. One of the sources said that “it was a briefing by the prime minister,” and another source said it was a “declaration of intent.”
“A meeting will be held soon, and we hope that a binding decision will be taken then,” the prime minister’s office said…
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Of course the US networks won’t mention this, any more than they’ll mention that Avi and Bibi are now touting the words of US archconservative anti-Semite Glenn Beck. http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/israeli-gov-promotes-glenn-becks-gaza-flotilla-screed/
Israel has a fascist government and a largely fascist political spectrum. They don’t do propaganda to us some of the time. They do propaganda to us all the time. Truth, facts, justice have nothing to do with any of this. It is all about selling a story. It doesn’t have to be a particularly good or credible story. Our media will swallow it whole almost always. This is what we are seeing. Fascist states behave like this. They are completely untrustworthy. There is really nothing surprising here.
Juan Cole on Turkey-Israel brinksmanship. From mild mannered Cole, this is a surprisingly strong statement, at the end
And like several fascist states, seems particularly enamored with doubling down.
What an ingenious trick!
Ya really gotta hand it to those Israelis…who would ever suspect anyone might notice the English-language communique includes a lie withheld from the domestic-p.r. notice?
Do they know about video and audio recording devices?
Everyone in on a lie should all tell the same story to everyone. This is politics 101.
If you really thought that your tribe was more important than anyone outside it, and that it was moral to simply use everyone outside your tribe, the way you or I might use a coffee maker or a horse, to achieve your goals… why wouldn’t you lie to outsiders?
Tribalism is ugly and evil wherever it occurs, whether its Rep. Price using the disgusting phrase “Chicago-style politics” (what’s “Chicago-style”, Rep. Price — wearing shoes??), or the Israeli government handing out comforting press releases while fully intending to continue its program of apartheid.
Amateur hour
Isn’t this precisely the deceit of which guys like Benjamin Netanyahu always used to accuse Yassir Arafat? What. It’s only wrong if Palestinians do it?
Israel knows there’s no on in the USG who speaks any language other than English.
http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/turkey-shelves-israeli-cooperation-considers-breaking-off-ties-israel-lobbies-in-congress-denounce-ankara.html
9/11 victims can’t sue the Saudis but the Armenians can? I am all for the Armenians suing the Turks but the 9/11 victims are going to be remembering this.
http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/turkey-shelves-israeli-cooperation-considers-breaking-off-ties-israel-lobbies-in-congress-denounce-ankara.html
The Next question is how many military contracts will the Turks cut with us if we don’t support Turkey getting a real international investigation? If we block action in the UN and NATO in this matter and if we allow Armenian lawsuits to go forward?
It’s exactly what all Arab leaders used to do, and still do, re statements in English about no longer seeking the total destruction of Israel. And yes, lying sucks whenever anybody does it. But the fact is, that lying has always been a way of life in the world generally, and in that part of the world in [articular. Which is why I find it amusing to see how so many here only question information issuing from the Israeli side of the equation, and automatically accept anything from the other side as Gospel. E.g. The Turkish autopsy findings, determined in secret, with the evidence immediately buried. And that’s why my attitude has always pretty much been, “A pox on both their houses, let them deal with each other in the only way they seem to be willing to deal with each other, i.e., dishonestly, and usually with bad intent on both sides. The essential point I’ve been trying to make here throughout this debate is that the idealistic faith placed on the Palestinian side of the conflict represents a cognitive dissonance of the highest order. There are no good guys in the Middle East.
Incirlik is a significant asset. Turkey is a major ally. Israel is a drain on our resources and complicates our foreign policy immeasurably. So naturally our elites tilt toward Israel.
You should perhaps brush up on Islamic burial practices. The argument you use is a well known one. It is “the everyone does it” argument. But still I suppose that is progress if you are now willing to admit that Israel is no better than Hamas.
Gosh, now I see where Barak Obomba found the model for his flim-flammery. Wonder if Rahm was the primary “say one thing and then deliver either the exact opposite or something of almost zero value” coach.
Hugh, I know about burial practices. And also that they can be suspended to preserve evidence. And I hope you realize I’ve never argued the Israelis are pure, I’ve only argued against assuming the Palestinain side is pure. You can easily verify the truth of that, everything is preserved. The lack of balance that I’ve seen on every Israel-related thread here, including this latest round, is my only impetus for intervening; I would do the same any time I saw a wildly unbalanced conversation. And I’ve tried to be a good faith fact checker. You should also know that I care very little about this conflict overall, and have studiously ignored it as irresolvable for 30 years. I do confess to having a legal interest in the concept of self-defense that goes back at least 25 years. I’ve been called a religious zealot (I’m agnostic), a troll, loser, “no different than a Nazi,” etc., etc., for trying to bring some rational balance here. You might wonder why unanimity here must be so viciously enforced.
Now THAT’s a balanced statement. /s
Oh, by all means, sir, please feel free to identify the good guy. And why you think so.
Yes they do:
“I’ve got some food, blankets and concrete. I’d like to get it to some people who need it.” – Good Guy
“Take this you Arab scum. BLAM.” – Bad Guy
I don’t think “balance” or “unanimity” are good things. How about accuracy? I’d hope that’s the driver here.
Fighting a battle here at FDL where the Israeli propaganda campaign is not as unanimously accepted as elsewhere is “fighting for balance”? If balance is your goal, why not go comment elsewhere about the lack of a Palestinian viewpoint in MSM reports or US admin/congress support for an Israeli self-investigation instead of an international inquiry. Are you out there asking for balance from Schumer when he’s speaking to NY Conservative Jewish groups (who have tended to be extremely pro-Israeli)?
If we are looking for balance:
Where is the balance in the death toll here in this flotilla attack, where Israeli soldiers boarded ships in international waters and posed no immediate threat to any Israeli (which would have been true true even if the ships had weapons aboard)?
Where is the semblance of a balanced response?
Where is the balance in a several year seige of 1.5M people because you dislike its leadership and occasional incoming amateur rockets?
Where is the balance in the annual giant foreign aid checks?
Where is the balance in the military supply agreements?
Where is the balance in the blind eye paid to nukes in one case and calls for international sanctions and partially veiled threats to invade based on alleged plans to develop nuke weapon related activities?
All that said, it really shouldn’t be about balance, but rather about trying to get some semblance of accuracy and then some semblance of a just outcome from a very messy situation in which no one is blameless, though the Palestinians have drawn a very short stick.
Yes, but this leaves unanswered why you said what you did about burying the evidence. Apartheid South Africa looked equally unresolvable for many years and then it was. During that time the ANC was treated as a terrorist organization. Indeed it was hardly pure. But the ANC and the South African regime were not equivalent. One had power, the other did not. With power comes responsibility.
Now we have the case of apartheid Israel. Neither side is pure. But the Israelis have the power. They have 200 nukes and a large modern military. Only the US in Iraq and the Gulf and Turkey with NATO behind it have superior forces. So in this context, having Israel with the power and the responsibility acting as badly as those who are without power is unacceptable. This is why your arguments about Hamas ring hollow. They ignore the massive balance of force in Israel’s favor just as they ignore Hamas’ past attempts to strike some kind of a deal with Israel.
Is Hamas imposing a siege on Israel…? Are they intercepting/hijacking ships in international waters…? Do you suppose that would naturally lead to a ‘balanced’ discussion…?
Thank you – this is a very important point. We’ve grown (devolved) into a country that looks for balance over accuracy – and therefore miss the real story completely.
I think this is what you intended.
Well, accuracy, and the honest striving for it, has always been and always will be my God. I guess I want to see it here because for six years the people here have been my thought community on all the other issues that really matter to me. That make any sense to you?
Many of the other points you made depart from accuracy in obvious ways, i.e., 10,000 is not “occasional,” we give money to everryone in the Middle East, etc. etc. Most obviously, history did not begin there two weeks ago. I share your love of, and desire for justice in all situations, and agree it is not present there now, but also feel that neither side scores very well in the “desire for justice” department. They all just want what they want, and do not care much any longer about what the other side needs or wants.
I would imagine there is at least one person in the WH who speaks Hebrew…
Mandela did not support terrorism.
Power brings responnsibility, yes, but also to one’s own people to make them feel secure. Without a good faith partner on the other side, it’s always hard to achieve equity, unless one is a saint. The Israelis are no longer interested in sainthood or in being perceived as saints. And I can understand why. It’s regrettable, but understandable. You also must be aware that the other Arabs have little interest in easing the plight of the Palestinians. I would also make the point that massive military power avails little against those who resort to asymmetrical warfare tactics.
Balance, properly conceived and applied, IS accuracy. The media use of the term is a travesty of the real meaning of the term. I use the term in its proper sense, which includes giving fair and appropriate weighting to the arguments on each side, not just noting that there exist arguments on each side.
Thanks. Wish it didn’t need to be said.
Mandela if you remember was in prison for something like 26 years. The ANC was effectively being run by others during that time.
So it is regrettable but understandable for the Israel’s to use their preponderance of force to establish an apartheid state? Then you blame the Palestinians, and then other Arab states for the Palestinians’ plight. Then you try to say that oh wait, Israel’s military dominance doesn’t mean anything. What you are laying out in your #29 is a series of non sequiturs, but the overall effect is to say let’s just forget about Israel’s vastly greater power and responsibility in this. Let’s just pretend like Israel and the Palestinians are actually on a level playing field, and now let’s blame the Palestinians as being the ones really at fault because, and let’s make sure we use the Israeli formulation here, the Palestinians are not a “good faith partner”.
No.
I will continue to believe my lying eyes. I will not make false equivalences. I will not blame the victims, just because they are not Mother Teresa clones. I will not equate the deaths of a small number of Israelis with the thousands of Palestinians who have been killed. I will not say that those who suffer apartheid are as much to blame as those who maintain it.
From the Ha’aretz story…..
Well, Rahm does, but for some reason, I just can’t see him ratting them out.
You always try to wedge that quest for truth element into your answers. I admire the sentiment…but wish you’d follow through.
I said occasional to acknowledge that there are provocations which are cited regularly, though these rockets are indeed pretty amateur. That said I’m not sure where you get 10,000…I believe that it is accurate to say that Israeli bulldozers have killed more Gazans in Gaza than Gazan rockets have killed Israelis in Israel.
But more importantly, where’s the balance and sense of proportion? 1.5M people blockaded for years inside a rubble pile that isn’t even a mile wide…
I didn’t say we don’t give money elsewhere in the middle east (though I’d like you to cite a source for us giving roughly the same amount of aid to the Palestinian authority that we give to Israel. Or the same amount of UN Security Council support we give to the Palestinian Authority vs Israel. Or military support… ie the point that I made as opposed to the point to which you decided you wanted to respond.)
And you are quite right that history didn’t begin there two weeks ago. And frankly the Israeli state has been visiting death destruction and ruin on the Palestinians for the majority of its existence. You can even say [accurately] that other states in the area have made it difficult for Israel, but the Palestinians are not these other states (they aren’t Jordan or Syria or Iraq or Iran or Egypt or whatever). Regardless, it gets really difficult to find a just solution when you don’t deal with the reality that is occurring now vs reality that occurred (or may have occurred…or is claimed to have occurred…at some point in the past when none of us were on the planet.)
Care to respond to any of the other questions I posed? What about cameras, videos, media cards, from this incident? Are they back with their owners? Are their owners all out of detention?
Some people have been fooled by this Israeli duplicity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How generous of the IDF…!
And you wonder why the PA and Hamas call it a PR ploy…?
Sorry, I misspelled your handle. Unintentional.
Just as a point of general info, the Moderator is deleting/disappearing my comments and edits willy-nilly, although they do not violate any guidelines that I am aware of.
What will your response be when/if Hamas now rejects the food?
Honestly, Do you really think they’ll reject the food…? ;-)
No, Tut, I don’t wonder at all about so many things in the region being PR ploys….
The last time I suggested such a thing, it was treated as cause for horror and censorship.
They’ve done it before, so I have to say it’s a real possibility. PR is a major tool that both sides use regularly, and cynically. You must be aware of that.
I was just reading plunger’s post and it really disturbs me at how much the discourse can be carried to extremes…! Comity and reason seem to be in short supply these days…!8-(
BTW, I have commented on the post that announced the Israeli self-investigation that it was unacceptable and deplorable.
And, you might be surprided to learn (but not TOO surprised, I would hope) that I have one Orthodox Jewish friend of 40 years that is rabidly pro-Israel, and a long history of castigating him over HIS lack of balance in his viewpoints and positions. And, let me assure you, I am not as gentle with him as the Moderator requires me to be here.
reading plunger’s stuff for the first time, when you haven’t developed a feel for what it is, … can be very disconcerting.
Israel is on the verge of imploding – their right wing nut jobs are even crazier than our own! Bibi will do anything to stay in power. God help us all what will he think of next! Is anyone talking yet about the German/Jewish ship that intends to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza?
One would surmise that he chose his handle with great deliberation and care lol.
Netanyahu probably won’t be able to stay in power very long.
Hmm. Well, I think arguments about “purity,” both sides committing sins, etc. are a sidetrack and a trap. There are only a few over-arching principles that matter. Israel, as the aggressor, has no right to use any force whatsoever against the Palestinians. Any force against the Palestinians is disproportionate. The Palestinians alone have the right to self-defense. They have the right to weapons to defend themselves. As people being attacked and expelled from their own lands for the sole reason of being non-Jewish, they are victims of ethnic-cleansing, a crime against humanity. Our government, by collaborating in the ethnic cleansing, by preventing the Palestinians from having defensive weapons, not to mention food, medicine, electricity and water, is guilty of a crime against humanity. Israel does not have a right to self-defense against the Palestinians. As Michael Neumann has eloquently explained, the Israelis only have the option of getting out of the way, removing themselves and their families from the homes built on stolen Palestinian land, out of the reach of any rockets fired by the legitimate owners of the land, most of them now imprisoned in Gaza.
However, the issue of responsibility and power is important, and unfortunately it’s clear that the greater the power, the less responsibility. Israel is very powerful, possesses nuclear weapons, has absolutely no morality, behaves ruthlessly and without conscience, and believes that any means is acceptable, no amount of force is too much, no victim too young or innocent, and no civilians exist on the side of the enemy. There is no reason to assume that an aggressive, expansionist, paranoid Israel would stop with the Palestinians.
That’s an interesting formulation of where the right and wrong of the situation lie. Seems rather extreme and unrealistic to me. I’m just a poor dumb lawyer, but I could swear they taught me that EVERYONE has a right to self-defense.
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Not supported by the evidence, counselor. Currently, where you comment is in Israel related posts, by a vast disproportion. And a disproportionate share of the posts in those threads are from you. And you yourself and your attitudes and grievances are the subject of a disproportionate number of your posts.
Disproportionate Response is the heart and soul of the Goldstone Report…
It is disturbing to know that Bibi knew that Freedom Flotilla had no fire-arms aboard and still authorized the use of deadly force and seized them in international waters… Ironically, shortly after first contact with the Israelis, the Mavi Marmara turned away and tried to head straight out to open sea away from Gaza and Israel…!
Try to find Israel-related commentary from me prior to the flotilla incident-only a handful of instances exist.
If my presence on these posts seems disproportionate to you, perhaps it might be because I am only one of at most a couple of voices debating the majority, and so many direct comments to me specifically, and I have the courtesy to attempt to respond to them individually. When I don’t respond, people rush to accuse me of being afraid or unable to respond.
Finally, you should try being on the Moderator’s Most Wanted list sometime-every comment I’ve made on any thread has been withheld “awaiting Moderator approval all year, sometimes for hours, and many things I write
just get disappeared for no good reason that I can see.
So, I’ll just be me, and you can just be you. I guess you’ve forgotten that you offered me a very moving apology not so long ago. I guess you’ve forgotten why you offered it. You can have it back anytime.
that and Crime against Humanity.
I am addressing only your factual claim @17, “I would do the same any time I saw a wildly unbalanced conversation.” You may have missed the point of my comment @51 which is that there are always any number of wildly unbalanced conversations at FDL, including during this same time period, and you do not behave at all the same there as you do in Israel related posts. Your claim is not supported by the evidence.
Agreed!
You can always scroll. I think your interest in me is aproaching the unhealthy.
I really don’t see the wild imbalance you do in these I/P discussions. Most of those critical of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians don’t seem to me to idealize the latter. An impression of imbalance may be created by the fact that, as others have said, most of the conversation revolves around things Israelis are doing to Palestinians because they are wildly imbalanced, like the 2006 war on Lebanon in which Israel killed some 1500 in retaliation for 10 or so Israelis killed by Hezbollah. This spectacular imbalance, Israeli might and the puny Palestinian resistance (Hamas rockets lobbed into Israel, most of which fall harmlessly) is a matter of horrified fascination for many. Part of it is simply that the Israelis do everything in a very big way – it gets attention.
When I have commented, I’ve tried to show that I’m aware of the misdeeds of too many Palestinian leaders, but I’ve also tried to express understanding of the root causes of these. Below is something I posted recently that illustrates this. But I truly believe most thoughtful posters here do not idealize Hamas et al and are fully aware of their iniquities.
Could we say that Hamas’s thuggishness in part stems from the fact that from the day they were elected (in monitored elections) Israel and the US have done everything they could to destabilize them. Brutalization is what comes when you are a very small, weak people and powerful governments are trying to overthrow your elected government and subjecting you to an inhumane, brutal blockade. This on top of 60 years of oppression. From what I remember at the time, Hamas was elected in 2006 because they were the only group who were actually providing services for the people and not engaged in self-aggrandizment.
Thank You!
First, I don’t count you as among those making wildly unbalanced comments.
Truth is, I’ve been here every single day, often many times a day, for six years. With only one or two exceptions, I’ve scrupulously avoided participating in these Israel-related threads, because just a quick glance would make me feel there were a lot of Jew-haters giving voice to their hatred. I know, Israel ain’t the Jews, and Obama ain’t the black people, etc., etc., but Jew-hatred is a real thing and I have been around long enough to recognize its flavor, I believe. So, I’d just avoid them, because I did not want to get into a spitfest with people who are my comrades on most other issues.
I know the history for the last century in Palestine, and I remember the Arab wars of attempted extermination. Maybe some comments here are just ignorance, that they don’t know the history, or maybe they decide history begins when they want it to, like last month. But the people in the area under discussion remember everything forever. I see no balance as to taking that fundamental fact into consideration.
Also, I read the Hamas charter last week. I recommend it to all here. It incorporates and relies on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which has been used for more than a century to justify genocide against Jews worldwide. It makes clear it determination to never allow JJews to live in peace. When you elect a govt like that, you have to accept some unpleasant consequences, including the hatred of the Israelis.
How can you sue the Turks for what the Ottoman Empire did? History folks, remember, remember… It’s Israelis that opposed the declaration of the Armenian Genocide as such, for it would diminish the “singular” Holocaust. You want Genocide, USA, USA, USA. Those Native Americans are GONE BABY. We ARE the same gov’t, how those lawsuits working out for ya.
The Israeli distortion of the importance of this declaration is akin to their insistence that Arab gov’t are concerned about Iranian nukes. They aren’t concerned when you ask them, it’s all part of Israel’s narrative, so they hold to it. They know they’ve snowed us, they forget they haven’t snowed everyone. Kinda like when Cartman thought he was invisible, but was really just naked.
Finally, how many suicide vests and rockets would any of us truly tolerate in our own neighborhoods before we became completely hardened against those who threaten us with them? That’s a human question, and deserves a human answer. I don’t think it’s enough to say we’d let them kill just a few of our family members before we got real worked up about it. But those are the prevailing sentiments voiced here, over and over and over. See Evelyn, above, claiming Israelis have no right of self-defense. Sheesh. Not balanced, because the Israelis are expected to act without reference to common, indeed, universal, human emotions against those who attack and threaten and kill or want to kill us. It’s ugly, but it’s the same for every human being.
Sorry, but the Sunni Arabs have been very concerned about the Shiite Iranians for my whole life.
Razorbrain, What do you know of Jew hate? You seem paranoid to me. As a point of fact, the Arabs only attacked Israel once, in 1973. The Six Day War was a war of aggression–you DON’T know your history. You Michael Oren books aren’t history, they’re lies. He lied about the Liberty. How ever do you explain shooting the life rafts, mistaken identity or no?
Why would you refer to the Hamas charter? This commits the Genetic Fallacy on one hand and on the other, ignores how Hamas was created. If Israel didn’t give birth to Hamas, she Midwifed it. [***Edited in Moderation***]
***Mod Note: Abuse of commenters and inflammatory language is not permitted.***
What would I do if people in suicide vests… I don’t know, I’m not “Starving, Humiliating, Dominating and Oppressing and entire people.” So, how can you draw equivalence? You are sure ignoring a lot when you pose that question. What would you do if some injun came and took your house, with no recourse. Then their Mexican brothers took over the interstates and only let native peoples drive on them. Let’s, to keep the analogy alive, give them Texas, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Utah and Nevada. Only, considering the occupation of the Jordan river valley, let’s give the Mexicans Washington, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Michigan, Illinois, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Further, to keep true to the analogy, the Mississippi River, the Colorado River and the Ohio and the Missouri Rivers would all go to MEXICANS. Mexicans would police the streets in our few remaining cities. Mexicans would control our ports, trade, airports, passports. [***Edited in Moderation***]
*** “ModNote: Repeated abuse of commenters is not permitted. ***
BTW, I like Mexicans.
[***Edited in Moderation***] Perhaps I should say, those arguments are the arugments of some one who’s failed to do any due diligence to corroborate facts, or has trusted someone who failed to do any due diligence to corroborate facts; or someone who is uninterested in the facts and is simply spinning their arguments to obfuscate, distort or confuse.
***Mod Note: Continued inflammatory remarks and insults to the commenter will not be permitted.***
CIA report: Israel will fall in 20 years
http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article67325.ece
Quite. An problem with facts is where I was going with @51 and @53.
Nonresponsive to the evidentiary issue, counselor. Not to mention ad hominem.
razorbrain@27: “…accuracy, and the honest striving for it, has always been and always will be my God.”
would you, by any chance, have any idea who has seen this secret CIA report or why either the Arab News, PRESS- TV or Mr Lamb would have the faintest idea of the contents of the report?
Responsive to the fact that I feel I’ve wasted a lot of time trying to communicate with you, and I’m done.
Can’t fight a Moderator who keeps disappearing my responsive comments down the memory hole in their entirety. Good night, all. Play amongst yourselves.
He has a way of leaving when the conversation gets too focused.
how would you know that he left for reasons other than the reasons he offered?
I’ve asked you before to refrain from interacting with me. As for him, he’s done it before. That was my implication.
see #74. give weight to it.