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During the Prop 8 aftermath I watched as the manager of the landmark El Coyote restaurant sobbed through a community meeting, trying to stave off a boycott of her family business. Her Mormon bishop had told her to write a check to support Prop 8, and she did, even though she claimed she loved her LGBT customers and employees. It was stunning and appalling. 8: The Mormon Proposition takes us into the mindset of Mormon leaders and their followers like Margy who were just following The Prophet’s orders.
The film uses the wedding of Spencer Jones and Tyler Barrick as a linchpin, exploring their past and connections to the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints; as their story and those of others–including activist Fred Karger–unfold, we see the effects of Mormon politics and theology on individuals, states and our country. 8: The Mormon Proposition exposes a very ugly side of the political process, specifically how the Mormon Church carefully and successfully orchestrated a ballot initiative in Hawaii 1996 to quash same-sex marriages, and again 12 years later, in California using the same methods.
Filmmaker Reed Cowan reveals the Mormon machinations behind the scenes and in their temples, how Mormon leaders leveraged money, manpower and their adherents’ salvation in order to force their plans for, and vision of, Heaven onto America.
Interviews and archival footage combine seamlessly to prove the point: A theocratic putsch was at work during the 2008 election and is at work now to deny Americans equal rights. But the film goes deeper than just the political process; it gives a human face to the homophobia–oh let’s just call it by it’s name, “hatred,”–at work in the LDS.
Cowan, himself a former Mormon, also explores how Mormon theology has painfully destroyed the lives of many of their followers and families. Interviews with LGBT former-Mormons and their families, victims of Mormon reparative therapy, LGBT who have been forced out of their communities and families, and those who have lost loved ones to suicide, show a painful human side to the religion’s harsh dictates.
The film also raises questions about religions’ place in politics and their tax exempt status, as does this news article:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been ordered to pay a small fine for failing to properly report about $37,000 in contributions on behalf the successful effort to pass Proposition 8, which banned same-sex marriages in California…
In a statement, the gay rights group the Human Rights Campaign said the fine reflects “a pattern of blatant disregard for California election laws and provides ongoing evidence that the Mormon Church was a significant leader in the campaign to repeal marriage equality, even while it evaded standard reporting requirements and denied its involvement.”
8: The Mormon Proposition opens June 18 in select theaters and Movies on Demand.



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Reed, Steven, Dave, Welcome to the Lake. Great film!
Please stay on topic–in this case Prop 8, Mormons, theocracy, religion-based homophobia and its effects…
Kindly keep in mind that while it may be your opinion that religion/God is a big fake lie, others may be of certain faiths which embrace LGBT– We’re not here to debate whether God/s exist/s or not, but rather how Mormon leaders have utilized their faith in a way that manipulates and harms others, including members of their own sect.
PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC If you want to jump in about the Gulf oil spill, politicians, predator drones or anything else not about tonight’s topics please find a post elsewhere on FDL to do so. Thank you.
Please–and I can’t believe I still have to say this, but–no ad hominen remarks. And please be respectful of our guests and of each other. And yeah, I tpye badly…
Hello gentlemen and welcome to Firedoglake Movie Night!
Thanks! Great to be here.
And on a more personal note, hi Reed, Steven, Dave.
Thank you for explaining the many levels of Mormon process involved, form political to religious–and showing the effects
For our readers;;a little background on each of you, fomr each of you, please.
Hi there- glad you all are here. This should be pretty interesting!
HELLO! Finally got logged on! – Steven Greenstreet
Hi this is Reed Cowan
Hi Dave! Hi Steven!
I am a documentary filmmaker and video mercenary and have been for 10 years. “8″ is my 3rd film. I used to be a Mormon and served a Mormon mission to Venezuela. I am now an “atheist”.
I am the Executive Director of Affirmation: Gay and Lesbian Mormons. We advocate on behalf of LGBT Mormons, work to create safe spaces (both within and without the LDS church), try to build pathways of communication, and work to end some of the damage caused by those with “less-than-Christ-like love.” I was a convert to the church, and I served a 2-year mission.
Reed: I was schooled in Mormon Seminary from 7th grade to 12th grade. Trained to be a full time evangelist missionary for a two year mission to Dallas Texas. Then on to Journalism school…and then the business of asking questions!
Hi, please rememberr to refresh your browsers!
who is here?
And btw to add a little spice, Dante Atkins at dkos is reporting on the current kos frontpage post:
Mormonism is a really fascinating sect of Christianity. I was lucky enough to tour the Orange County temple before it was dedicated and see the baptism font. I already new about some of the rituals an cosmology, but for our readers, could you all explain the theological “logic” in Mormonism that has developed into such homophobia?
Mormon bishop had told her to write a check to support Prop 8, and she did, even though she claimed she loved her LGBT customers and employees.
Why don’t they pay Taxes, any religion that fights a fight in the world of politics should have it taken away. Oh right o in charge more change we can believe in
I saw a pre-release screener of this movie this weekend. It is wonderful.
As much as anything else I have ever seen, this film explains why the Mormon Church is so bent about marriage equality: gays marrying challenges their very idea of heaven, which is where everyone (male) gets his own planet when he dies and as many wives as he wants. It’s essential that maleness and the patrimony be exalted for this to work.
I really recommend this movie, and I want to point out also that it is under organized attack by people who have NOT seen it but have been told by their Mormon Bishop to run it down on Fandango.
It’s a start, but still a fairly low “cost of doing business.”
Thank you
The really sad fact is that the voters approved 8. But the arc of history bends ever left, just this morning my mom forwarded me an email about the suffrage movement, many of those women were thrown in jail and tortured for demanding the right to vote. And that all happened less than a century ago. They will eventually lose. It just sucks we have to put up with them in the meantime…
Loved the movie! That was so enlightening.
I was particularly fascinated with the success the Mormon Church had forming a committee to run the operation through in Hawaii, and the fact that even they were amazed that it absorbed most of the impact.
It really gave them tremendous cover. Sort of like a “Chamber of Commerce” for bigots.
I see it as two fold: 1) Sex. Homosexual sex has always been feared and demonized by most religions. Mormons are no different. They believe that Mormons, if good, can become Gods of their own planets and populate that planet with their own kids. Gays (biologically) disrupt God’s plan and thus the structure of the entire universe. 2) Ignorance and refusal to progress with an open mind. It’s really outdated to be racist. The same is happening with gay rights. They cling to a Reaganesque era of blissful disregard of the realities of the LGBT community. Hopefully, “8″ helps break down some of those walls.
Thank you Teddy! And jo6pack…point taken. You’re asking the same thing many are
Steven, my same-sex partner was also raised Mormon. This movie was very hard for him to watch. Do you think ex-Mormons bring a special sensibility to this topic, since you are willing to tell tales, such as about the concept of heaven (not widely shared outside the Church) and about the “means and time” donation? He was very disturbed about the extraordinary “tithe” for Prop 8, where the home teachers came around to ask for extra money, knowing full well people’s financial situation.
Thanks for this great movie.
Far as I’m concerned we owe a debt of gratitude to the LDS for their leadership in fighting the final devolvement of marriage into a sad parody
Yes, and how they formed coalitions with other faiths (my enemies enemy), but basically did all the heavy lifting in terms of $ and manpower. Creepy.
runfast and win. YES. And that’s our hope. We want to punctuate the issues in this film and hopefully voters will embrace this film as their own. Tihs is not a “gay” film. It is a film for anyone interested in preserving the integrity and transparency of the voting process.
Tomonthebay…I actually disagree. And so do my two children who are being raised in a relationship with parents that do not have the benefits and protection of marriage.
Well, if your marriage is a sad parody, that’s pretty much up to you, not gay people you’ve never met.
I have a great same sex partner, and it’s no sad parody.
Religions are allowed by law to participate in political “issue” based campaigns. They are allowed by the IRS to donate an “insubstantial” amount of their net worth. The problem is, the IRS has NEVER defined what a “substantial” would be. Thus, religions are easily able to cook the books and withhold their donations.
Is she still in business?
And thank you for exposing the tragic loss because of LGBT suicides related to church and family pressure. Utah’s suicide rate is stunning. Shocking.
Mormons are trained to be very efficient at organization; local units of the church have no paid clergy, but multi-layer organizational structure that transfers well to other purposes. Couple that with limitless financing, it is easy to build an issue-oriented structure
Just what does it take for a church to lose tax exempt status? Should I create a church that holds all Mormon marriages to be illegal?
Lisa. It was imperative to connect the personal stories to the political actions of the Mormon Church. It’s one thing to follow the money and the memos. But it’s another imperative to follow the damage in the lives of those who live with 8′s ramifications.
and insuring separation of church and state.
It’s important to show that coalition building. Because it can happen again on any issue.
Thanks to everyone involved in producing this documentary.
Being a Utah resident, and having a similar history with the Mormon church as Reed, I’m really interested to see how it is handled here, not only officially, but within the Mormon community.
I’ll be making sure that I sit my extended family down for a screening.
Having grown up Mormon, I saw this as essential to making the film. I was aware of certain “inside” jargin (like the “means and time” thing) as well as the general cultural feeling within the church. I knew instantly when I heard bullshit being spoken by church PR people. Why? Cuz I used to be on a mormon bishopric and a mormon missionary. And I knew otherwise. So, yes.
Jahiz, thank you. Screenings in home (film available on the 18th on demand) are going to be key. Communication can and will happen. Watch, take notes and share.
Hawaii was Prop 8′s proof of concept, on a small scale: find and fund front organizations so that anti-Catholic and anti-Mormon feelings don’t percolate around the initiative to revoke marriage equality.
On Prop8, though, they brought the full power of the church to bear, with families stripping their kids’ college funds because the Bishop knew people had that savings. They still appeared to operate in the background, behind the facade of the coalition, though.
It was EXTREMELY difficult to edit this section of the film. Heart breaking.
Yes, politics have personal ramifications. And heaven may or may not exist, but here and now does. So love now, and accept children for what they are.
To Steven’s point regarding inside jargon…it’s a good one. As a journalist I watch outside journalists come in to SLC who know nothing about the inner workings of the faith…and what the public gets is a dumbed down copy paste version of what the public relations dept of the LDS church feeds them. Perhaps for the first time in history…film makers who know how it really works on the “inside” are telling the mormon story relative to this issue. And we are damned proud of that.
*standing on chair, clapping!*
Kelly! Dont fall off that chair! ;) Mwaaa!
The Mormons tell their people how much they should give in a political campaign? This does sound like they are giving to a political campaign.
Fine tax all their cash like any PAC for ten years as punishment. Plus I want some DNA tests done these fools think Mexicans and American Indians are the lost tribes of Israel.
Lets get some Israeli genetics experts to do some tests. Then insist that every copy of the book of Mormon have those results added into a new chapter.
Why do you put atheist in quote marks?
How have Mormons reacted to you spilling the beans on their Top Sekrit scriptures and (more importanlty for all of America) the political machinations?
You’re opening in SLC on Friday, correct?
Thanks, as some one who has been in front of the irs 6 times 7yr and never lost I wish they would
A lot of questions today about what we are the most proud of. I’ll start. THE DOCUMENTS. When I got my hands on the 1500+ insider documents, I knew that we had the most bullet proof elements of the entire film. I’m excited audiences will get to see these for the first time. You can’t argue with those.
Their top-down God-driven heirarchy doesn’t hurt either.
Just like for Catholics, it’s a very strong statement to go against the head of the Church. You could see the agony on the faces of the Mormon mom whose family, and Church, she was defying to love her son and his male partner.
On the other hand, my non-Mormon friends in Utah have an all-purpose answer when they are proseltyzed by neighbors: “God told me you’re wrong.”
Mormons have no answer to that kind of personal revelation. It is the center of their church, and their faith, and so they must respect that of others. Despite the loss of a potential convert to hell, or whatever version they espouse.
Why are you still a Mormon?
To be snarky. :-P But I guess I was trying to treat it as some brand new fantastic thing that everyone should know about. Have you heard the good news? I’m an atheist.
Lisa. Some Mormons have surprised us with an honest hurt over what their church prompted members to do. Others have gone for the throat, and of course that stings.
That coded language reminded me very much of how George W Bush’s speechwriters used to include evangelical code to reach people deep in their faith, while it sailed over the heads of us gentiles and heathens.
thanks for the laugh and the good newsw.
There are a lot of good people within the Mormon church, and it is shameful the way that some of their leaders have used them and taken advantage of their trust
Just how do Mormons recruit people in third world countries free food and medicine in exchange for a sermon?
Do they up the rewards if you convert?
If so isn’t that bribery unless you treat everyone equal?
For information on screenings
http://www.mormonproposition.com/
and their Facebook page
Teddy. I call it TRIGGER LANGUAGE. “Means and time” were trigger words in the Mormon call to action in this holy war against LGBT rights. I think you will be interested to see how this plays out in the film.
This wasn’t done as policy. But, in many cases, yes Bishops went to members’ homes and said “get out your check books”. These guys are friggin serious about their religion. It’s a 24/7 cultural immersion.
things come undone. First, credit where credit is due. Mormons do AMAZING charitable work in third world countries. Whether or not this is altruistic or an effort to gain favor is up for debate. Regardless, people are getting help and I applaud that. However, the Mormon packages that DO arrive in third world countries are OFTEN marked with the Mormon trademark and logo…and ARE used for missionary work purposes.
yes the true believers–Eric Hoffer
Speaking of “gentiles” – I travel to Salt Lake City quite often on business, and that’s what the non-Mormon folks (Typically ethnic) that I deal with call themselves.
I go there enough that I frequent a martini bar on 200 South, and they make me a “Goyim” Martini – 2 olives and a pickle speared EXACTLY the right way, ifyouknowwahdImean…
HA Kelly! I think I know that bar. Red Door?
Really? Mormons really believe that sh*t? Seems completely crazy to me. And I was raised R.C., so I’m pretty blase about crazy religious ideas.
That’s IT!
A question for all of YOU now. What will YOU do with the information you got from 8? What is YOUR trigger point? Where will YOU take the movement?
I do wish that in the section about folks who’d fled to Mexico you’d mentioned that Mitt Romney’s grandparents were also among those who’d left the USA for Mexico to practice polygamy. There was always a questions about George Romney’s eligibility to serve as President, being born to religious exiles outside of the country. The question was whether his parents had renounced their American citizenship when they fled to Mexico in plural marriage.
When Mitt talks about cracking down on border crossings, he’s talking about his own father returning to America. He’s the son of a potentially illegal immigrant who never got his papers in order.
I am still technically a member of the church because (A) it helps to be able to fight from within, (B) I refuse to make it easier for them to get rid of me by resigning, (C) I believe in much of the doctrine, even though I am not convinced that some of the leaders of the church either believe or follow that doctrine, and (D) I have watched the church in other cases as well as my own, and they would rather endure an “undisiplined” member that take on the negative publicity envolved in getting rid of us. The last time that I attended a church meeting in my home congregation, I bore my testimony as a gay man — and was praised for doing so.
Thanks Teddy, well dinner ready and thanks Lisa and all
Teddy. Want an inside tip? Watch thoroughly Mormon Mitt and what he does in 2012. Get ready! ;)
I think the most important point to take away from your movie is that our rights aren’t up for a vote. I’m very discouraged to think that the LGBT marriage movement wants to put marriage equality on the ballot again in California.
Civil rights should never be put to a vote.
The federal court case, at SCOTUS, will overturn all amendments to state constitutions barring marriage equality. As it should. We should not pursue ballot initiatives; at the time of Loving v Virginia, only 20% of Americans believed interracial marriages should be legal.
It should be mentioned again that Dave Melson is one of the main voices in our film outlining some of the detailed logistics of the church’s political machine. He’s the one who delivers the “man behind the curtain” line that’s in the trailer. Brilliant.
Do you think you will be excommunicated because of the film, like that BYU student was because of his racy missionary calendar?
WE HAVE 5 MINUTES BEFORE WE HAVE TO GO! We have a QnA to do with the NYC audience. Any final questions?
Just as Hawaii was proof of concept for Prop 8, I think Prop 8 was proof of concept for Mitt2012.
Teddy. AMEN! I hope for FULL FEDERAL EQUALITY. Piecemeal equality will never do. Gotta run y’all. Screening in NYC is nearing an end and we have a full audience of q&a. Dave, we leave these good people to you!
‘Zactamundo – so what I’m doing in Denver, is I renewed my ACLU membership, and marched over to the Corona Street office and told them I’d stuff envelopes, do paralegal research, anything to help combat the issue here in Colorado.
Thanks for this chat today, and for making this great film.
Best of luck to you with it!
(People, see this movie. It opened my eyes, and you know I was steeped in the anti-8 campaign)
Interesting approach.
I skied for 30 years at Alta, so I had some rubbing shoulders with Mormons, mainly ones who lapsed, who worked at the ski areas. I also worked for Goldman Sachs, where several of the high net worth salesmen were Mormons. At another Wall St. firm, I visited the SLC Mormon office tower to talk with their economist about my forecast as often as I could get my firm to pay for transportation for a ski trip. So my relations were always civil, but I was never convinced that there was much there there except teh crazy.
Wow. You are intense and strong! I salute you!
I gave up trying to figure their logic on things like that ages ago. A good friend who was totally obedient, celebate for 40 years, was excommunicated last week for simply being gay
Ding. The minute the majority gets to abrogate fundamental rights of anybody is the day fundamental rights are dead.
Oh, wait…
BTW, while Reed and Steven may have to go around 6pm, Dave Melson will be with us thru 6:30
I will see you at the screening in Washington, DC, tomorrow night!
Bishops are agents of the church ask the Catholics about church liability for what bishops do. I think Gays who can’t marry because of these bishops who told their flock to contribute should sue.
That and I am still convinced their tax exempt status should be stripped.
Well long as its not quid pro quo for conversions.
closing arguments start this week in the Federal case concerning Prop 8
Cool I’ll try and be here for the news.
You know how I go like a broken record that women’s rights/repro rights are linked to gay rights.
Mormon ideology describes and supports that finding perfectly. During the marriage ceremony, when sealed in the Temple, the woman is pulled through the veil, from earth to heaven, by her husband.
Implicit in this, is that the woman CAN’T go to heaven without her husband pulling her along.
This crazy bio/gender-trac to achieving grace is present in their daily world. And politics.
Teddy P and the crew here are going to cover it. You should see Teddy’s liveblog coverage. It was awesome.
You still are Teddy you still are. And I agree this must be settled by SCOTUS… even with these right wingnuts up there…
You mean, as a woman, I can’t have my own planet?
I beg to differ. I’ve created my own widdle planet right here.
As for Mormonism, I’m particularly impressed by how all the gold plates of the Book of Mormon were conveniently lost. Seems that alone would be enough to create some skepticism.
Amazing work, guys. Thank you. My wife and I will definitely be watching this Friday when it hits OnDemand.
I applaud your bravery and wish you all well.
Dave Melson – don’t you think it’s going to be harder for the LDS hierarchy to pull off anti-marriage activities in the future? I’m just asking on a relative basis.
Because I don’t see how they can get the same results as easy as they did this last go ’round.
Thanks! Your support is greatly appreciated. The purpose of any film of this type is to move people to action — the film is just the starting point.
Also, do you have any comments on how the google donations map played out?
The magical thinking amidst the “burned-over” parts of Upstate New York in the middle of the 19th century can’t be overestimated. There were some really odd things happening there. Here-then-gone gold plates were just a small part of it, that happened to last.
Senior leaders in the church live in a somewhat sheltered environment. Friday through Monday they travel to speak in a conference somewhere in the world (in meetings the whole time). Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, they open the mail, kiss the dog, feed the wife. There are a few of them who do not see that there is a problem. In Utah, what a General Authority of the church says is automatically fact and is to obeyed.
Dave, as a convert, have you noticed that converts to LDS are particularly active in the anti-marriage-equality effort? I wonder if that’s an important ticket for folks to punch as part of showing the heirarchy that they are really devout.
Being the top man in an organization in which disagreement with the top man is heresy and subjects you to excommunication is a very sweet gig.
My sweetie sings soprano and her choir was going to do a concert together with the LDS choir but I reminded her what they had done re: prop 8. She and several others refused to participate… Her church is UCC and has an openly lesbian pastor… They are open and affirming in the journey with Christ…
The Mormon church has long depended upon obieience to central authority. The issue of gay people in the church is one area where that authority is starting to break down. There are wards (congregations) in the church where you can be excommunicated simply for being gay, and others where gay men and women hold church callings and are welcomed and esteemed. This split continues to the highest levels of church leadership
Last I looked at my calendar, it was 2010. Oh, never mind.
Perhps a convert to the church has a different appreciation of the good things about the church that have been hijacked by small group that teaches homophobia as a family value to the exclusion of all else
What % of the Mormon leadership do you think are closeted gay?
It will be 1956 forever in St. George, Utah — Lake Wobegon was never so unchanging
Is the LDS church at risk for schism because of this split, especially where there are women leaders and gays treated fairly? Seems to me that’s pretty near what’s happening in Anglicanism in America. How do Mormons in the more tolerant stakes square their disobedience?
I hope you are able to help open minded members.
I know people who insist that they have first-hand evidence of gay individuals within the General Authorities (highest church leadership). Mae Swenson and Louie Felt were two of the highest female leaders in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and were supposedly openly lesbian (they were known as the “Jonathan and David of the General Primary.” The son of Brigham Young earned his living as a drag queen, perfoming to church audiences
Sorry Dave, but I just have to tell a little joke –
The Mormons have a rather arcane tradition about divination, called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim_%28Latter_Day_Saints%29“Urim and Thummim” from the Hebrew terms.
My long ago Mormon boyfriends and I would go to the bars, and as regarded particular hotties, we would say “Do-him, or Shoo-him?”
If only we could confine 1956 to that place you mention.
Ah, 1956 memories. I was 12. Went to mass every morning. Read Nun Story (movie was 1959), and thought that was my vocation. Was one year away from becoming atheist (no quotes) for the rest of my life. Wore hat & white gloves (summer only) to mass on Sunday. I remember 1956 well.
part of Affirmation’s mission is to build communication — including communication between the lgbt community and church members — and to create safe spaces for gay church members, which often involves identifying wards that are relativly welcoming and/or affirming. We also try to work with individual leaders who are open and welcoming
you were no doubt above average, as were all children in 1956
Do you have a link for that? That is too good to not bring up with appropriate documentation at relevant points in the future.
BTW, why did they not mention that when I toured the BeeHive house?
If all children were above average in 1956, why are we in the fix we’re in? Rhetorical Q, asked in the same snark as your comment was made.
There is a photo of Brigham Morris Young (in drag advertising one of his shows) on the Affirmation web site (www.affirmation.org) in the history section, as well as citations to the source material
The parents of suicided teens who are told by their Bishop, at their sons’ funerals, that their families are better off with a dead kid, is really an amazing approach to growing your church. How can people sit still for that? I’ve heard it lots of places, not simply in this movie.
Side note related, my mom used to tuck me with a pun on the Biblical Shadrak, Meshak and Abednego
8: The Mormon Proposition theatrical dates:
Playing in the following select theaters:
Opening June 18
Atlanta – Landmark Midtown Art Cinema
Boston – The Coolidge Corner Theater
Chicago – Gene Siskel Film Center
Dallas – Angelika Dallas
Ft. Lauderdale – Gateway
Honolulu – Kahala 8 Theater
Houston – Angelika Houston
New York City – Village East Cinema, Chelsea Clearview
Los Angeles – Laemmle’s Sunset Five
Palm Springs – Camelot Theaters
Scottsdale/Phoenix – Harkins Camelview 5
Salt Lake City – Tower Theater
San Diego- Reading Theater- Gaslamp 15
Spokane – Magic Lantern Theater
Washington, DC – AFI Silver Springs
Opening June 25
San Francisco – Presidio Theater
San Francisco – Sundance Kabuki Theater
Berkeley – Rialto Elmwood Berkeley
Santa Rosa – Rialto Cinemas Lakeside
Opening July 2
Denver – Film Society at Starz Film Center
A member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, not that many years ago, preached that it was better for a young man to come home from his mission in a pine box than for him to come home gay. There are still Bishops in the church who will council parents that they must throw their gay child out of the house onto the street at once, rather than allow the child to contaminate their other siblings.
This one? Certainly is much classier than this guy.
Anyone who wants to understand more about ‘revealed truth’ within the LDS Church should read up on the decision to abandon plural marriage, in order to achieve Utah statehood, and the decision to include blacks, in order to avoid charges of bigotry.
These politically convenient revelations from God have always amazed me. The faithful seem to view it as their God’s influence on every current event; I have a more cynical view.
And when Mitt Romney talks about hearing the racial revelation on his car radio, pulling over to the side of the road and breaking down in sobs, I want someone to ask: Why did you sob, Mitt? Was it that your church was now welcoming to blacks? Did that in and of itself make you feel better? Or did you realize, suddenly, that an obstacle to your father’s — and perhaps also your own — political ambition was lifted? Why did you break down weeping, Mitt?
it gives a human face to the [thing I don't agree with]–oh let’s just call it by it’s name, “hatred,”–at work.
Do you mind if I use this against the people I don’t agree with?
Thank you all for being here. And thank you for making 8: The Mormon Proposition
Please go see the movie. It is super important.
Thank you all for your interest. Please come see the film this weekend, please download it or buy the DVD and then share it with others. This project has been a labor of love on the part of Reed, Steven, myself, and everyone involved. We hope that you feel some of that love as you view it.
please do! honored.
Not surprising – and it’s not just Mormon hierarchy that will say that sort of thing, as I can personally attest.
I want to re-iterate how educational and entertaining this movie is. I thought I knew everything about Prop 8! And I learned a lot on Saturday night, watching it.
Please see this movie.
Linchpin, not lynch pin. It has nothing to do with lynching.
Ok, so now we’re far enough along in the thread to go tangentially off topic.
In 4/09 I went with a friend to tour privately-owned historic houses in Savannah, GA. The tour was started as a fund raiser 70 years ago by the Episcopal church in town, founded in 1700-something, with current building being early 1800s. So the opening night reception was in the public square in front of the church followed by a church service. After the service the minister did the usual, i.e., shake hands with the peeps leaving the building. I observed that he had consistently referred to his church as “Anglican” not “Episcopalian.” So I asked why. I expected him to reply something about the aged tradition of the congregation, but instead I got some wacky obfuscation that I couldn’t make head not tail out of. Two days later I met, face-to-face, with MarioninSavannah, who is a frequent commenter at FDL. She collapsed in gales of laughter and told me that the Savannah church thought gay or lesbian bishops were anathema and had chosen to go with the Ugandan branch of the church. But the minister was too ashamed to give me a straightforward A to my Q.
typo, not misunderstanding of term.
thanks.
The bigot Anglicans just lost in front of the Virginia Supreme Court, too, in their plea to steal George Washington’s Church from the Episcopalians. Case referred back to the lower court, I believe because the breakaway sect is not actually part of the overall Episcopalians.
Odd that Virginia would have such a law, but they are very big on private property there, and I guess that applies to church property too.
I presume you then endorse polygamy and incest as the Bible does.
Jon Walker is upstairs!
AL-02: Cong. Hopeful Wants to Impeach Obama And Americans To “Gather Your Armies”
I lived in Utah for a decade. No faithful Mormon is allowed an original thought, nor is anyone allowed to question church authority or the Bishop’s direction. Everybody, and I do mean everybody in the church know everybody elses business. If you make a slip the Bishop is at your house before dinner. If you are woman, it is the husbands role to bring you back in line. It may be a good deal for men, but is servitude and stiffeling for women. This was a couple decades ago and anti-depressents were in a woman’s basis food group.