The Rachel Corrie was planned to be the first boat in the flotilla attacked this weekend by Israeli commandos but suffered mechanical problems apparently caused by Israeli sabotage as suggested by the comments of the IDF’s Col. Itzil Turgeman:
A senior officer in the Israel Defence Forces hinted that the IDF sabotaged the engines of five ships, saying ”they took care of them”, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported. Colonel Itzik Turgeman told the paper the army decided not to sabotage the largest ship, Mavi Marmara, fearing it would become stranded in the ocean and a humanitarian crisis would emerge.
At the time this post was composed (11:00 p.m. CT, June 1, 2010) there is not conclusive word on the location of the MV Rachel Corrie. While earlier reports placed it off the coast of Libya and suggested a planned landing in Gaza Wednesday afternoon, the latest updates say:
IRISH SHIP: The delayed Free Gaza Movement’s cargo ship Rachel Corrie yesterday assumed a holding position in the eastern Mediterranean, poised to make a fresh attempt to reach Israeli-blockaded Gaza.
Organiser Greta Berlin said the ship was waiting for Challenger II , a small passenger boat which suffered failure of its steering gear while preparing for the passage.
The ship is expected to pick up additional human rights activists and journalists before sailing to Gaza.
A representative for the Malaysian passengers aboard the Rachel Corrie, Perdana Global Peace Organisation (PGPO) chairman Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad, noted today that:
the ship was going to sail through Gaza waters and it had nothing to do with Israel.
“They are not going to Israeli waters. Why is it that these Israelis are going to block people going towards Gaza and not using Israeli’s territorial waters at all? They have no right,” he said.
And tonight, the Irish government declared their full support for their citizens aboard the Rachel Corrie:
The Irish taoiseach, Brian Cowen, warned Israel tonight that he expected no violence against those on the Rachel Corrie.
“If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences,” he said, calling on Israel to guarantee the vessel safe passage through the military blockade of Gaza…
“I’d say the mood on board is resilient and steadfast. When people signed up to this they knew what might happen,” said [organizer] Moloughney. “We expected we would be confronted and there would be a stand-off, but no one expected this. But there’s never really been a question of the boat turning back.”
…Speaking on the boat’s satellite phone, Maguire said she was determined the boat should continue on its course.
“We’re not frightened, no, we hope the Israeli government will allow us to go freely in and we know the international community are calling for our safe passage,” she said.
Halliday said he had spoken to Ireland’s foreign minister, Micheál Martin. “He was very reassuring that the government was behind us and he gave us a complete green light to do what we’re doing and he’ll protect us as much as he can,” Halliday said.
Martin himself told parliament: “We will be watching this situation very closely – as indeed will the world – and it is imperative that Israel avoid any action which leads to further bloodshed.”
It’s important to note that while earlier today, there were numerous reports which seemed to represent hopeful news – of Turkish naval escorts for additional humanitarian sailings and an Egyptian border crossing, you should never underestimate the potential for heartbreak in news of Palestine.
There is no confirmation or even direct reports that Turkey will support the Rachel Corrie – and the Egyptian “opening” is merely a decision – in light of Egyptian people’s outrage – to potentially allow daily aid shipments into Gaza via the Rafah crossing (with no specific word on what conditions will be imposed on that aid) and to allow ill Gazans and students to cross at Rafah on their way to and from treatment and schools. Egypt has not announced when this easing of the blockade will end – and certainly has not said the easing is permanent.
Meanwhile, we have word that Sydney Morning Herald reporter Paul McGeough and photographer Kate Geraghty are still being held by the Israelis. They were offered immediate deportation but only if they would sign confessions stating they had illegally entered Israel and subjected themselves to a 10 year ban on re-entry. The Herald’s editor has demanded their immediate release and return of all of their equipment and film. McGeough intends to fight the deportation.
And, while there are multiple reports coming out from passengers deported over the last day, there has yet to be a confirmed, independent death count from the attack or list of those who suffered injuries. For all the official international outrage – and tepid McChrystal-ite “regrets” from Obama, Israel has still not been forced to release even this most basic information. Reporters San Frontieres is demanding a full accounting of the journalists seized during the attack and lawyers representing Free Gaza have filed a habeas brief for information on all passengers including those killed and injured.



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I think it has reached a point where the only way for the Palestinians to avoid being totally exterminated by the Israelis is for them to learn from the Israelis on how to become such savvy terrorists that the Western powers will see them as freedom fighters.
I thought less people died yesterday as was reported in the news? Was Israel lying or did some more Peace Activists die last night of their wounds?
Reporting this morning makes clear that the flotilla was intended to provke a violent response from Israel. It succeeded, yielding the desired PR victory.
Also, quoted in the Times this morning is a leader of the Turkish group that backed the flotilla, gleefully and triumphantly boasting that his group has a chieved a great success because they are “famous now.”
Just a couple of inconvenient facts to add to the stew.
Will the UN, Interpol, Ireland etc investigate these charges?
Is this just talk sometimes politicians just say stuff to get elected ( like Obama ). What does Ireland mean by serious consequences?
Looks like “humanitarian aid” included a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles, as well as gas masks and at least “50 passengers” without passports, but carrying large sums of cash…no wonder they wanted to avoid the port at Ashdod.
Turkey getting any new aid packages or weapons? :(
So….that makes slaughtering unarmed civilians okay? I’m not sure I get what you’re saying. Sounds like you’re saying that if someone curses at a police officer in this country, the cop has every right to shoot them down. Is that it? And if not, what’s the difference?
In response to karmi@6
Bullet proof vests! NO! Say it isn’t so. Gas masks! How dare these people want to put something between themselves and the weapons the Israelis point at them constantly!
What do you mean by “savvy”? From the 1970s forward, Palestinian terrorism was quite tactically savvy in terms of striking symbolic targets.
The result is that terrorism has not seemed to work even after almost 40 years.
The attack on the flotilla is a situation that could change the dynamics. If Palestinians respond with violence, they lose again. If they respond with restraint, Israel finally loses its appearance of moral superiority, even in the US. This is very much a case of the one who shoots first loses.
Playing into the Muslim = terrorism meme will not work with Western powers; it is the sure way not to be seen in the West as freedom fighters.
Oh please! Look at the source. The Jerusalem Post? Might as well get your information from FAUX “News”. Has it not occurred to you that the Jerusalem Post has a dog in this fight?
“What does Ireland mean by serious consequences?”
It means that the Irish Prime Minister will express outrage when Israel kills Irish protesters by submitting a sternly worded letter of condemnation for consideration to the U.N. Security council, which the United States will most certainly immediately block.
“no wonder they wanted to avoid the port at Ashdod.”
I think they wanted to avoid the port of Ashdod because their destination was Gaza, where Humanitarian aid is desperately needed. The Israelis get all the Humanitarian and Military aid they need from the U.S.
It’s inconvenient to demonstrate the brutality Israel so regularly practices? Inconvenient for whom?
“Israel finally loses its appearance of moral superiority, even in the US.”
I’m pretty sure the Israelis lost any pretense of moral superiority a long, long time ago.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169
Are you sure this was not planted I mean during the night attack on the Peace Ship Night Vision googles to see the Israeli Commandos, Bullet Proof Vests and Gas Masks would have all come in handy.
To bad the Israeli’s made them put up the White Flag and surrender by shooting at them bullets and gas before they even landed on the boat.
You would think Israel would have at least offered them a last chance to surrender.
Apparently not enough to change the politics of US response.
Is it impossible to imagine Israel letting the food in? I really thought civilians should not be directly targeted during war?
If Israel wants to go after terrorists fine, but they are punishing everybody innocent and guilty alike with their blockade.
Thank you Siun, for using metaphoric night vision goggles to see through the fog of Israeli propaganda. Israel is becoming a criminal enterprise!
This is just their latest attempt at victimhood. Alas! Poor us! First we are condemned for killing aid workers trying to run our blockade with *gasp* humanitarian supplies but look over here! We found bullet proof vests! Gas masks! (Things that every Israeli owns BTW) and people with CASH! Do you know what CASH can buy???
What does moral superiority even mean? Something like, we torture in a much more civilized manner?
Wait are these the guys or was it someone else who claimed the night of the attack that the peace activists were hiding behind children as human shields? What ever happened to that story?
Hasbara’s getting its trolls from the bottom of the barrel these days.
Food? :)
In politics, you get what you pay for. We pay the Israelis to feel good about ourselves and they use that money to pay our politicians to look the other way while they steal land and water from the Palestinians.
IF the Israelis were sincere that all they are trying to do is prevent weapons coming in, they would have searched those vessels and taken anything they found objectionable off and let the rest go on. Instead they stopped the entire flotilla and seized everything and everybody. That tells me that they want to punish people, probably for electing Hamas rather than preventing weapons coming in. The Israelis found food, medicine and construction materials to be objectionable. Sorry defenders, that isn’t justifiable and neither is their over the top response.
See mine @ 26 :-)
Well said. Quoting Mr. Spock” Logic is inescapable”.
Let’s hope the Israelis don’t have a floating bulldozer.
You sure have your snark on this morning.
You didn’t by any chance run into that burning bush on your walk this morning, did you? I still think The Chosen Ones need a refresher.
The American Zionists in New York found My Name is Rachel Corrie so objectionable they threatened to withdraw their support from a major theatre group if they presented the play. It’s not only weapons the Israelis are afraid of. Brings back “the pen is mightier than the sword.”
New post up top…
I’m usually very worried about any person or group of persons who are so easily offended. Very telling.
Nope. My walk got rained out and so, presumably, were any burning bushes.
http://firedoglake.com/2010/05/30/israeli-warships-try-to-block-wheelchairs-and-schoolbooks-for-gaza/
Yes the night of the attack the Israeli trolls were saying all kinds of shit. So why should we believe them now?
Siun kicked the trolls ass:). What makes the IDF think after lying about peace activists hiding behind kids that we are going to believe anything they say today?
Good to know that Elliot Spitzer thinks Israel’s terrorist actions are the fault of the humanitarian aid workers. Somebody send that clown to Fox News.
Seconded!
What bothers me most is that these people are so willing to invoke Hitler and the Nazis at the least amount of criticism of Israeli policies. It’s like otherwise reasonable people spontaneously start to channel Glenn Beck. An incredibly defensive act that I find incredibly offensive.
Why do they blockade us?
Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers … so much for being “peaceful activists.”
Yes Israeli Commandos being attacked by Peace Activists tell me do these Commandos fear Peace Activists or Senior Citizens more?
IDF solders had no right to board ships in international waters or are you saying when solders break the law its not a crime?
Is Jon Yoo writing you material?
The flotilla could’ve gone to the port at Ashdod for inspection, but chose to run the legal maritime blockade instead…and, BTW, resorted to violence when boarded.
Wai Wait I know its the legal theory of Might Makes Right!, Bullies hate it when victims defend themselves.
From now on, every time I see you criticizing the United States military and finding video released by them questionable, I’m going to point out your double standard. Don’t link to IDF released video and expect it to be greeted as anything other than what it is: Propaganda.
You rappel, armed to the teeth, onto my craft in international waters and I’m gonna do things the mods would delete.
Look up Maritime Law…you will find that ships can be boarded in international waters.
Because then none of the aid materials would have GOTTEN to Gaza! BECAUSE of the Israeli BLOCKADE! Any of this getting through to you?
Yes and people keep feeding them. FDL’s veterinarian has specifically asked the lake’s denizens not to feed the poor little things as there’s been a really serious outbreak of rotfang and droopscale in the kennels and they need to fast for 168 hours. But no!!!!
Some cruel people selfishly insist on feeding them it’s so inhumane I’m thinking reporting them to the humane society for spanking, kneecapping, and attitude adjustment ……….
The Rachel Corrie? I wouldn’t want to be on THAT ship!
Yes and the IDF could have said that before they attacked the boat.
The Israelis shot first. If the civilians had responded with machine gun fire, (which they couldn’t, being unarmed), they would have been justified. This is no different than the Intifada where the IDF “justified” shooting children because they were throwing rocks at tanks.
Would this involve doing things to roughly ovoid shaped objects in a convenient tear-off pouch?
mfi
Guilty as charged. *g* Read your piece. Always a pleasure.
A military attack of a civilian vessel in international waters is piracy and terrorism. Those ships are the property of the nations they are flagged under, and Israel’s lethal raid was an act of war against Turkey.
heh
And their cargoes seized? Last I heard Israel was not at war with Palestine, Turkey etc inspecting cargo in a blockade is fine seizing the cargo if nothing illegal is on board not fine!
Attacking a ship without first giving them a chance to surrender? Then ignoring the surrender and keep on firing? Really not Ok.
So I saw I left you a reply there anent Laith and his son.
mfi
Your basis for your statement?
The relevant international law covering such situations is the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, of 12 June 1994.
“What is missing so far from flotilla clips on both sides is context: it is difficult to say who attacked first.”
Military boarding in the dead of night is not an attack?
homer http://www.altara.blogspot.ccm
It’s just astonishing to me that the very same people who, (rightly), go off on the United States military over predator attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan can then defend and support anything the IDF does, no matter how heinous, no matter how violent, no matter how unjustifiable. Seriously. Never come back here bitching about civilians in Asia being illegally slaughtered by the United States. You don’t have the right to anymore.
No it isn’t. It is a warcrime, there’s a big difference. I discussed this here on the lake yesterday in this posting:
The Israelis Are Now Caught Between Two Equally Unpleasant Possibilities | The Seminal
I know zip about the law. Doesn’t that apply to warfare? When did Israel declare war on Turkey?
Attacking civilians in international water is a violation of international law. There is no law on land or sea that allows militaries to attack civilians.
Sure they do, only on the water, they’re called the corvettes, missile boats, submarines, etc. of the Israeli Navy.
Their motto: Open Sea, Safe Land (not kidding).
Open and safe for whom?! We have the (USS) Liberty to do and believe exactly as we’re told by our MOTU, or be accused of being an evil-doer and whisked off to
hell on earthBagram, there tosuffer for all timeenjoy “indefinite detention,” where dignitaries can take tours, peeringover the battlements into the hell belowthrough the bars at the detainees, praising the MOTU for the just punishment visited uponuppity citizensevil-doers.It’s what
they say their god tells them to tell us that’s whatgod would do. How dare we question their motives?Barnacle on MSNBC just inferred that the whole operation was set up by hamas to make israel look bad.
Mounting Global Criticism of Israel for Raid.
Headline on MSNBC.
They really asked for it this time.-
Mike doesn’t always come off as intelligent, does he?
Not that I think they should do it, but Para 98:
98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.
“always?” or did you mean “ever?”
AP has been writing that Gaza is controlled by “Iranian-backed Hamas.” At this point it’s almost sad, like watching a person who’s been in denial about their condition desperately trying anything before finally falling apart.
And the hasbara Rusty Trombone Squad sure are scurrying around this morning.
Right you are. I was going to say maybe he should be a weather announcer, but then I though of Dylan. You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
But that’s for declared war! Not for blockading relief for civilians outside the scope of war.
There is no confirmation or even direct reports that Turkey will support the Rachel Corrie
thank you Siun. although I am very glad to see twitter being employed, but just as with Iran, it is tough to get the straight story in real time.
long live Glenzilla ! a horrid state of affairs when we cheer for someone merely telling the truth.
p.s. optics aren’t looking too good for Israel this morning – even Fox had to report the cargo was nothing more than “generic humanitarian supplies”, same at NBC news
Barnacle is Israel’s moral defender, What Pat the Nazi wouldn’t do it? Joe I don’t know how that dead woman got in my office was sick?
Mika could,t understand the question?
http://www.bostonphoenix.com/archive/features/98/08/20/MIKE_BARNICLE_STEALS.html
As if Israel needed any help with that!
Also: what part of “international waters” don’t defenders of Israel’s latest atrocity understand?
I’m certain former Ambassador Craig Murray’s adamant appraisal of The Legal Position on the Israeli Attack has been posted before, but it bears repeating loudly and often:
No, it means confrontation was sought for political purposes, and confrontation was achieved. You know enough to understand these kind of tactics. There’s an old saying, “If you fuck with the bull, you get the horns.” They deliberately fucked with the bull, because the PR victory was more important to them than the lives of the activists on board. No good guys here that I can see. No justification for the black-and-white analysis that is prevailing here.
Is there any cop or soldier anywhere that would not respond with lethal force to being attacked with a crowbar? I certainly would.
Is there an armed conflict at sea?
Exactly that means Israel recognizes the State of Palestine!
Now then did the Israeli government make this argument citing the law or just the Israeli news, Fox News or what ever voices trolls hear in their heads?
No I see no reason to use lethal force I see jail in somebodies future.
It’s occurred to me that everyone has a dog in this fight. Why accept the talking points of either side as Gospel?
Inconvenient for those who favor a black vs. white analysis to a more accurate one that takes the grays into account. This situation is full of grays.
See my 44.
I attacked you. You fought back. Therefore, I was just defending myself.
Great logic there.
Reminds of the old jewish mother joke, “Look at me when I talk to you!” “How can you LOOK at me after what you’ve done!”
Yeah, we should just let Netanyahu investigate it all so it can just be swept under the rug like every other Israeli atrocity.
I think under international law Israel is within its rights to establish a maritime blockade.
War does not need to be declared on Turkey. The blockade is of Gaza which is ruled by Hamas, which has launched missiles into Israel targeting and killing civilians.
Israel says shipping humanitarian supplies into Gaza can de done by off-loading them in Israel for inspection then they would be trucked into Gaza. Is this true, I don’t know, call their bluff with this new ship. Better than getting killed.
Is aid shipments to Gaza their real aim is it simply to break the blockade. Whatever their aim, I believe Israel has a right under international law to prevent such ships from reaching Gaza.
I’m sorry you feel that the slaughter of innocent civilians is justifiable or even understandable, no matter the “provocation”. I also would like you to be fully aware that you have, by unconditionally supporting the IDF actions in this and other cases, lost any and all credibility when discussing such actions in or out of warfare or involving Israel or indeed any other power/nation. Don’t come back here griping about predator drone attacks on the innocent or about North Korea’s latest provocative action or the tin plated dictators who go around killing and maiming people like Charles Taylor. You’ve ceded your credibility, don’t cede your consistency.
Well, they say they had no problem with the food. And most here auttomatically assume everything they say is a lie.
I can understand the need from a security standpoint to insure nothing gets in that has a military value. Can’t you?
Bottom line, for me, is that both sides seemed to be spoiling for a confrontation. That makes it really hard for me to make a moral judgment about what happened. I also think any violence is deplorable. But everyone in the Middle East seems to love it. They just won’t listen to me, for some reason.
An illegal blockade. An illegal act of piracy. A bunch of dead people. Not a lot of gray here, unless you’re easily played.
Because I was watching the live stream. It was far from complete but what I’ve seen from the IDF is very heavily edited.
I guess that’s going to be up to Turkey now, isn’t it? And no. Too many relief supplies never reach Gaza, hence the blockade running. This has been independently determined over and over. Even by the United States.
Israeli embassy spokesperson on MSNBC now, assuring us that israel will do a thorough investigation
ROFLMFAO *snort* *can’t breathe* LOL Hoa, shit.
All I can say is, don’t ever try attacking an American cop with a crowbar, OK? I don’t want to lose you. ;-)
OK. Larue clearly would disagree with you, and so do I. Would you also support combat with police who used violence to break up a civil disobedience action here? I don’t think so.
I see the post is being overrun again, reading the ignorance on display is like stepping in dog dirt, one sort of wishes it didn’t happen.
Did Obama say anything else while he was on?
The pro-Israeli response reminds me of this.
There is a great deal of puerile “he hit me first” here. What should be essential to American patriots is VERY SIMPLE! A legally flagged ship of a NATO ally has come under attack in international waters.
The United States of America has no treaty obligation with the attacker. The country under attack may be our most important NATO ally. Should our ability to use Turkish airspace, and our major airbase in Turkey be hampered, American GI’s lives in Iraq and Afghanistan are imperiled.
ANYONE, even (especially) elected officials, who say that we should abandon our treaty obligations (which may cause the collapse of NATO), which would lead to significant deaths of GI’s and weaken the security of the USA is a traitor!
If, because of ethnicity, you believe that another country’s welfare is more important than the USA (especially in a time of NATO war), I would invite you to go to your home country. Until most recently, immigrants to America came to America to be Americans. Patriots do not leave America, swear allegiance to a foreign government and then come back to act against America’s interest – that is treason.
I say America first! If your first loyalty is to another country… get the “f” out of ours!
Wow, such overarching concern for human life, razorbrain! I agree that you don’t overcome juggernauts by head-on force, you simply side-step them. The Mavi Marmara had done just that, they had turned away, as directed, and were attacked anyway. GAFC.
Your argument is risible. Here’s a thought: the activists themselves knew they were risking their lives. None of the organizers sacrificed them on the PR altar, as you so absurdly assert. They themselves put in motion the events that cost them their lives, and they did it knowingly, thus the dignity of the act of self-sacrifice. Sometimes, people do the darnedest things, like laying down their own life for someone they may never have met.
It takes great courage to run with the bulls, my friend. What would you have us do with the rampaging bull of Israel, brave Sir Razorbrain, run away?
Shorter razorbrain: Ooh, the big bad heartless organizers sure look good after the massacre, that means they’re the ones responsible for Israel’s latest war crime. They callously sacrificed the lives of unwitting dupes.
No they didn’t, my unbelievably obtuse friend. Israeli commandos murdered them on the high seas, for which self-sacrifice the activists deserve our greatest respect, and Turkey deserves the right to investigate and prosecute the perps. Turkey, BTW, is a NATO ally, with whom the US has a treaty alliance. We have no such treaty alliance with Israel. Why is that?
As you may know, Israel refuses to define her own borders, one of the demands of a military alliance. The craven response of Obama is indefensible, making plain for all to see the real political landscape: Our de jure ally, Turkey, was just attacked by our de facto MOTU, so of course we’re kowtowing like there’s no tomorrow.
You might find it helpful to study some civil disobedience manuals. OTOH, if you don’t want non-violence in a situation you deliberately provoke, then by all means fight back if that pleases you. Just don’t cry about the violence afterward. Once ANYBODY in a dynamic situation resorts to violence, everyone involved will also resort to violence, and the strong will defeat the weak. If that outcome displeases you, refrain from violence and take comfort in your passive non-violence. But you can’t have it both ways.
To make your example more accurate, keep in mind that it is happening outside of the cop’s jurisdiction.
heh
I always believe that investigations should ony be conducted by impartial parties. If you can find any.
Barnie Frank (D Mass., Chair House Banking Cmte) is interviewed by the Boston Herald.
From the article: “Frank, in a wide-ranging interview with the Herald, went on to say that “as a Jew,” Israeli treatment of Arabs around some of the West Bank settlements “makes me ashamed that there would be Jews that would engage in that kind of victimization of a minority.”
Source here: http://bostonherald.com/news/politics/view/20100602barney_frank_calls_for_probe_of_gaza_raid/srvc=home&position=also
Even shorter version of events: “They made us kill them! We’re the real victims here!”
+style points for “risible.”
Couldn’t disagre more with your take on this. Once you say, “no matter the provocation,” you have chosen to depart from the realm of reality, IMO.
I deplore all pain and death, and will retain my right to deplore them at will. I will also retain my right to recognize that Mideast politics ain’t beanbag, and sometimes people orchestrate violent encounters for PR purposes, and that the tactic works very well, so it is used over and over.
And since you mention North Korea, don’t you find it at least abit curious that the incident there, which killed many more South Koreans. has not received even 1% of the attention here as the flotilla incident? I do.
per a Guardian link from yesterday – US wants Israel to conduct impartial investigation
link
. . .I really can’t wait for that Obama guy to assume office and we wont ever have to be embarrassed by our govt’s geo political callow ham fistedness again X~o
Whose crying? Let’s sue the MF’rs and hold the clear evidence of their crime up for everyone to see. Meanwhile, let’s capitalize on the obvious tongue twisting efforts of the US lapdog government to expose an incestuous relationship with Israel and its undue influence on our own country.
I’m thinking about a fox and a hen house. No one’s that
stupidnaive, are they? /sMaybe we start from different points, if you assume the blockade to be illegal. I don’t know eneough to be sure about that point. I do know it could be credibly argued both ways.
We can agree the video is incomplete. Which is why I am waiting for more facts. But, I also saw video that showed instantaneous attacks from the ship passengers. So, I’m honest enough to suspend judgment until I know enough to make a credible overall judgment.
Now we’re getting somewhere. Do you agree with our SOS’s statement then?
The flotilla of humanitarian aid was intended to call the world’s attention to the dire plight of the Palestinians in Gaza as a result of the Israeli blockade of their democratically elected government. It was not intended to provoke violence. The Israelis had many ways to stop this flotilla without using violence had they so chosen.
And it’s a good thing that world attention is now focused on what the Israelis are doing to the Gazans. What’s not good is that Israel has murdered civilians bringing aid to a distressed people.
And Israel is still holding incommunicado many of the people it captured and kidnapped. That, too, is unfortunate.
A troll is anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint. How convenient!
Why even have a debate with that attitude?
razorbrain,
I am surprised by the line you are drawing. If I accept your logic, then we both have to accept the no small matter of proportionate response.
would you tell this woman’s parents she deserved ‘the horns’ ??
Or, put another way: Facts are stubborn things.
Apples and oranges. How about heat who bust into the wrong house and are met with armed resistance? How about the murder of Fred Hampton by the Chicago PD at the behest of the FBI?
Please don’t tell me that the heat announce themselves on no knock raids. Detroit comes to mind.
Feel better now?
That jurisdictional issue seems to be in some dispute. Are you an expert in that field?
“get the fuck out . . .” ????? I would think you would be embarrased to voice such a sentiment, if you were at all cognizant of our own history.
dark :)
Mess with the Bull, you get bullshit.
Yeah, I applaud people having a good vocabulary, even if their head is in the clouds while they utilize it.
Not sure where “we” would get the standing to sue them. Hell, we can’t even get the standing to sue our own govt.
Will the Israelis keep the ships and the supplies on them? If so, those supplies will go to feed Israelis, not Palestinians.
Of course not. Impartiality is always key to me. Not that we ever see much of it, anywhere.
And a fair amount of the RED color.
As my opinion of whether your credibility in other matters is impeached by your reflexive defense of the IDF is entirely subjective, your agreement or disagreement is irrelevant.
Please, show the audience where the word troll was used in my statement. The comment you so inaccurately read had reference, was aimed, if you will, at those proffering propaganda rather than facts. If that fits you, you are the one to call that shot, you know yourself better than most.
[Edited by Moderator: Amazing how much shorter some comments can be when all the personal attacks and namecalling are taken out. But as you know, personal attacks and namecalling are verboten here.]
I would tend to agree with you, as I usually do, but I’ve seen reporting that credibly suggests to me that confrontation was the true goal here. That fundamentally alters the equation, IMO.
I don’t root for sny team. It’s not my way. Nor is it my way to make judgments before I know all the facts. It is my way to deplore and regret any situation where people choose to be violent rather than engage in reasonable negotiation leading to a fair and pragmatic settlement.
Crowbar coming at head? What is the proportional response to that?
If I ruled the world, there be no weapons and no violence at all, we’d all love each other and share the goods of the earth. But, for some unfathomable reason, noone will put me in charge. ‘Tis a puzzlement.
The WaPo continues to use images of Muslims rioting and burning things as the default backdrop for coverage of the flotilla massacre.
(The rest of the MSM has been guilty of this as well.)
[Edited by Moderator: Due to complaints by several other commenters, the part of this comment that was considered offensively racist was deleted.]
You well know, SD, that if the police wrongfully/mistakenly bust into your house, and you point a gun at them, they will kill you and it will be ruled a justifiable shooting.
If that satisfies your requirement for a logical riposte, good for you.
LMAO! Comment of the day!
Now that’s just racist! Flagged!
Margaret, last night, this exchange happened – my emphasis in all cases-
me @ 150:
razorbrain @ 160:
Note the futility of discussing matters of law and humanity when one participant goes with the “They did it, so why can’t we?” defense. Probably best to consign this one to the ‘ignore’ file.
thank you.
See there, we agree!
And on #130 too.
Well, it’s by no means “reflexive,” nor even a defense. Just a recognition that we don’t have all the facts yet, and that some here insist on ignoring/dismissing some that we do have.
And you are always entitled to have a “subjective” opinion on any subject, I guess. The Israelis have “subjective” opinions as well.
Sort of bears out my opinion on razorbrain’s credibility in these matters. It’s a shame. He or she is otherwise a very reasonable person.
Not brainless. Reflexively defensive, and persistent.
I responded to the clear meaning of your comment. Or did you literally mean dogs were typing comment here? If so, who’s the “brainless twerp”?
QUERY TO THE MOD: Does “brainless twerp” satisfy the standards of civility today?
[Noted by Moderator: No. Therefore, it's been disappeared.]
The difference is that my subjective opinion doesn’t lead to the slaughtering of other people. Israelis subjective opinion too often does. Can’t you see the difference?
Sounds like a BUI.
Blogging under the influence.
Yeah, please let’s not bring name calling into this. Razorbrain is defending the indefensible but is hardly brainless.
Yes, don’t forget to include the fact that you could not provide the comparative list of relevant enforcement actions that I challenged you to provide.
Your argument is with reality, not with me.
Southern Dragon @ 44 expressed my sentiments exactly when he said,
I’m not defending anything, just pointing out inconsistencies and deficiencies in the otherwise-unanimous mob response here.
That unanimity would be a danger signal to anyone who was honestly searchiong for truth.
And you would get killed. Congratulations.
Yes, exactly. I don’t understand why some people seem to feel that it’s okay for OTHERS to have their homes invaded and that the owners must not fight back. The people on the ships had every right to be there; the soldiers did not. I can’t imagine that any American would just give in to that kind of assault.
I just watched this clip. It’s kind of surprising that the translation says, “I think I just hit something.” The bulldozer operator actually said, “I think I just hit someone.” Then later, when asked how the person was, he said, “In my opinion, he died.”
I’ve seen a lot about Rachel Corrie in the past. It’s heartbreaking each time.
Egypt and Israel have borders that are blocked. The reason is Hamas. They have a mission. That mission is to exterminate Israel. This is what HAMAS says. Israel and Gaza lived in relative peace until Hamas took over. 10,000 rocket attacks later, Israel has a right to defend the citizens of Israel. Getting rid of Hamas, gets rid of the blockade. Wait till the next ships come. Same results. If the Europeans had not tried to exterminate the Jews, we would not have this problem.
true goal was to aid the gazans.
Can you back up this statement?
Your comment about Jews is offensive.
The ship where the people were killed is a Turkish ship. It is the same as being on Turkish soil. International waters. Unarmed citizens. Mercy mission.
Anything else?
Yeah, i thought so too. I even flagged it. I wonder where the mods are?
Hamas was duly elected. Do you feel that the Palestinians don’t even have the right to decide who represents them? Why don’t we be honest – the Palestinians are little more than bothersome cattle to the Israelis.
Something like this:
The San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, of 12 June 1994.
Para 98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.
Isn’t that the truth ! Lordy, how low can you get.
The ships were backing up trying to avoid the confrontation.
LMAO! Other than the ships were Turkish flagged and the people aboard had permission from the Turkish government and were in international waters you mean? WTF does that mean, “Can you back up that statement”? It doesn’t NEED any “backing up”.
I saw that you said it was racist.
MODS: Is Eternal Vig’s statement at 129 acceptable on FDL?
The only problem with this is that there was no armed conflict.
Hitler was elected. Should we have let him continue to exterminate {mostly]Jews? Palestinians elected a terrorist wing. So the Jews should just go along with Hamases plan, right.
Barney Frank. Feh.
He mouths a few sound-bite worthy platitudes which are later used as cover for supporting the status quo.
Note that even in this one interview he then goes on to compare an attack on a humanitarian aid flotilla in international waters with the sinking of a warship in a combat zone:
Yeah Barney – how about moral consistency in comparisons, for starters.
Lastly, if Frank were truly serious about doing anything to change things (as opposed to being deadly serious about doing everything to maintain things), he’d point out that America’s $3B annual aid to Israel is completely illegal (under the Symington Amendment), and stop it.
After watching Frank for years I’ve come to the lamentable if unsurprising conclusion that Frank simply says what’s good for Frank and his supporters.
Yep, in one of the biggest acts of hypocrisy by Israel and the warhawks in the Bush administration, they pretended to encourage free elections and when Hamas won, in what every observer said was a fair election, suddenly the US and Israel say they aren’t the legitimate government. Israel then slaughters a whole bunch of Gaza residents and then imposes a blockade to punish the people for daring to vote for who they wanted to elected.
Not if you’ve already made up your mind it doesn’t. Here’s what the law says about your “Turkey Flag” argument:
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
Oh, for pete’s sake. The Jews are not starving, going without proper medications, having their homes bulldozed, etc. If you are trying to make this an equal situation, you won’t succeed with me. It’s just not.
Your apparent support of the WaPo’s racism is what’s truly offensive.
Are you really that racist, or did you simply miss the point?
Bullshit! The blockade is a crime against humanity because it’s nothing more than a continuation of Israel’s grossly disproportionate response in Gaza that included war crimes like using phosphorus bombs to blow up hospitals and schools incinerating innocent women and children. Israel is using the blockade to slowly murder everyone who lives in Gaza.
Israel is a rogue apartheid state controlled by a terrorist government that deserves universal condemnation and isolation.
Amen Margaret..
You dont have to go towards Gaza to get beaten up or killed.
Mouthing off to police officers in Portland Oregon has lead to broken arms. Not to mention driving too slowly near the off duty head of the police union has lead to verbal assault.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/05/_by_aimee_green_a.html
http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/03/woman_claims_portland_officer.html
Thanks for previous posting of this link.
http://palsolidarity.org/2010/05/12604
Once more: This is covering DECLARED WAR! When did Israel declare war on the Palestinian state? When did Israel RECOGNIZE a Palestinian state? You must be privy to information that nobody else on the planet has: that israel has both recognized a Palestinian state and declared war on it. Stop it!
Why do we have to put up with racist comments and personal attacks from this person mods? Where are you?
Gaza has some similarities with the Warsaw Ghetto.
People were starving and dying in the Warsaw Ghetto for the same reasons – you had to take your life in your hands to sneak out and bring food back in. At that point in time, the Jews were being persecuted. Steps were taken to end the slaughter of Jews.
Now the Gazans are in that situation at the hands of the Israeli government. Steps need to be taken to end the oppression.
I don’t support WaPo’s racism and I don’t support your anti-Semitism.
What is Egypts motivation for their blockade?
Goodness, the Israeli hasbara crew are so energetic … and yet they need to invent “facts” to argue their side.
The simple reality is that civilians carrying aid were attacked on the high seas and then kidnapped by Israel. The world’s governments once again expressed outrage – well, the US expressed vague regret – but nothing has been done.
God speed MV Rachel Corrie – once again, it is up to the citizens of the world to attempt to save ourselves.
Oops! Looks like it’s down finally. Thanks mods.
The American government has bought them with aid money.
Inventing facts and channeling Glenn Beck, yep. Fortunately there hasn’t been any of the latter yet today.
You do not need to declare war to declare a blockade. We board ships all the time, looking for drugs. Kennedy did not declare war on Cuba or Russia in his blockade.
These ships had not tried to go through the blockade.
They were backing up !
But he did RECOGNIZE them as states, did he not? Besides, there is a HUGE, ENORMOUS difference between declaring a weapons blockade and one that affects food, medicine, building materials, water purifiers, clothing and etc. In case it escaped your attention, Russia, or rather the Soviet Union was sending nuclear tipped missiles to Cuba, Israel is punishing the Palestinian people for daring to vote their conscience. Those are not analogous.
That is not a good answer. Does not compute. The only people you blame are the Jews and the Americans. No blame for the thousands of rockets fired into Israel. Egypt shuts down its border to Hamasville? Americas fault. You are not making sense. Sorry.
They admit to attempting a total media blackout of Israeli aggression.
So, then, the IDF wasn’t the welcome wagon?
LINK
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/06/israel-turns-to-youtube-twitter-to-rescue-info-war/
Why does Israel get so upset if anyone exerts their right to defend themself?
M’eh. I’m done with these folks. This is a pointless waste of time. I might as well argue with my cat. At least she would give honest responses.
Moderator, Your interference with free expression is unwarranted and I object most vehemently. I refuse to allow this travesty, reference was to a pseudonym and incapability of their thought processes in presenting propaganda drivel. On consideration, Have it your way. This is as bad as once having to A*PAC here.
A request: Please take my name off all notices sent by FDL. Also take my T-Bear and cancel its password, I am not going to play high-school level cutsy with you people. Tails you loose.
Nobody is blaming Jews, except EV. In case it’s not clear to you: Not all Israelis are Jews and not all Jews are Israeli or Zionist. Stop equating them. You’re just as guilty as those who equate them because they are being bigots.
Not true. Israel asks to look over cargo in a port. If said cargo is not weapon related, it can enter. Get the facts straight. Israel has recognized a country for Palestinians several times. One time under Clinton. Peace deal was reneged on by Arafat. Remember? Clinton vowed to never trust Arafat again.
When it comes to racism (regardless of label) look in the mirror.
You see dark satire condemning pejorative descriptions and somehow twist it into “anti-Semitism.”
You’re not seeing me or even what I wrote, you’re just seeing your own prejudice.
Hey Mods, can you please put a stop to this groundless bullshit?
Since we give almost as much money to Egypt as we do to Israel, I imagine that we pull a lot of strings. I don’t like war or killing or people maimed. But think about this – what if someone appeared one day, bulldozed your home, injured your family and said “get out”, what would you do? We, fortunately, have never had to live through that but I don’t think Americans would take it well. The Israelis just keep taking large chunks of land that don’t belong to them and the Palestinians are going to do nothing? I don’t think so.
I went back and read the law again to be sure.
I can’t find this anywhere. I assume it’s an opinion.
To reinforce your point, the Israeli armed drones overhead these days actually increase the terror aspect of it a little.
Don’t go.
How is that groundless? Your comment about “jews slavering over piles of money” was appropriate in your mind then? Spare me the self righteous indignation.
Arafat is dead. the PLO lost the last election. What does any of that have to do with the current situation?
Surely you know that some things are simply over the top and unnecessary. We try here to respect each other and we’d like you to stick around.
I’ve admitted I know zero about the law but every reference seems to cover warfare, declared or otherwise. Still, like I said, neither my interpretation or yours are relevant. Turkey’s interpretation is the one that will ultimately matter.
Margaret, as bad as that sentiment is – and it’s one for the books – I wish it were retained.
Here we sit, litigating thousands of years of history over electronic means, but the raw remains. I for one want to know the hearts and minds of the players. The better to judge whether to give reply or ignore them.
And this from one who leaps too often into the breach on sentiment alone… what a planet!
So, if the red color was coming out of an Israeli body, may I assume you would be on the attack against the Muslim who brought that about? Or would you be justifying it?
Yep. Homes were demolished in Gaza. Jewish homes. The Jews destroyed the Jews homes when they forced their own people out of Gaza, in the name of peace. Israel and Gaza lived in peace for a couple of years. Then the Hamas regime was elected. They were to share power. Hamas killed other Muslims to get them out of Gaza. Then the rockets started. Israel retaliated.Egypt and Jordan have peace agreements. Sadat was killed because he made peace with Israel. Sorry. There are Muslims in the world that want Israel wiped out. Israel was almost wiped out by the Europeans. The Jews will fight to the death this time.
I’ve always thought of you as being fairly circumspect.
We all agree to the terms of use when we come here to comment and clearly that one was not only offensive but far outside those boundaries. If you believe that those terms are too strict or unforgiving, you’re going to have to take it up with the powers that be. I’m just another commenter here. Just like you.
That is an astonishingly ignorant and naive statement to make in a country where police regularly make shit up to get search warrants, plant evidence, commit perjury, and assault and kill unarmed innocent people who are not resisting or disobeying police authority.
You are living in a dream world if you honestly believe that shit.
I’m in the group that says T-Bear should stay. Just take a break if you want, then slip back into the pool. Or at least consider it.
The breach awaits…
No, stand up, walk around, reread what you have in preview…
delete, start over. Almost all the time.
But I remember John Rocker being essentially banned from baseball, and Marge Schott, too, for race-tinged comments, and I wanted them out there because we need them to keep placing hate and fear in the appropriate context for us.
If I believed that, I’d be totally with you. But see the Times Page 1 article today, then tell me if you really think that was the true goal. Doesn’t look like it to me, looks like provocation and PR ammunition was the true goal.
Where in history has this land belonged to the Palestinians? In recent history, the ottoman empire was in control. Then the English. They named it Palestine. Hence, Palestinians. Most, so called Palestinians, came from Syria.the Arabs were given the same UN charter as the Jews. The Arabs refused. Said they could not live next to the Jews.
I hear you.
But there is armed conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. This would seem to be the crux of the matter.
Um, you just used the defense of Israel via international law (to which they’re not a signatory anyway, though neither is Turkey) to de facto declare the sovereignty of Gaza as a state-actor.
Nice work.
Israel can’t legitimately naval blockade its own ports in peacetime, so whose ports are they blockading?
Beyond that, they can’t blockade humanitarian aid regardless of the situation, and these vessels had been thoroughly cataloged and marked as such by an allied nation, and every other port along the way, so far as my understanding of the situation goes.
You’re still throwing a tantrum over your mistakes of yesterday.
I will say that on both days you’ve been able to misunderstand what I wrote and then managed to take personal offense at what you imagined I meant – so at least you’re consistent.
If you could step out of your emotional reactivity and read again what I wrote, you’d (perhaps) be able to recognize that the entire point of the second construct was to highlight the utterly offensive nature of the first – in other words, the use of what is clearly stereotypically pejorative imagery.
To try to make it even more obvious for you:
The use of stereotypical, pejorative and racist images of Muslims – in this case images of “violent and dangerous” Muslims rioting and burning Israeli and American flags, the standard images of the “Muslim terrorist threat” to America and Israel – when purporting to cover the massacre of those attempting to give humanitarian aid to Muslim victims of Israeli war crimes, is just as offensive as if the WaPo were to use images of covetous Jews when covering Israel’s concerns for its safety.
I hope you can’t manage to misunderstand that.
As I said yesterday, you might want to re-read your own comments, ask yourself how you could have misunderstood things so badly and yet failed to even question whether your interpretation was correct, and most of all examine your projection onto me of your own “self-righteous indignation.” That seems to be a big theme for you.
You used to have a succinct set of suggestions for affective and appropriate comments which I haven’t seen for a while. Would you kindly share that advice here? Pretty please?
You left out the part where Jews where being rounded up and shoved into gas chambers. Which is where your analogy breaks down.
You mean the comment mantra – don’t say anything that your mother wouldn’t approve of if she were looking over your shoulder while you typed it?
Heck, to her, I’m to the Right of the Kaiser.
You just don’t get it, do you? They may kill you no matter what you do and get away with it. Happens all the time.
Some people refuse to accept police intimidation and choose to fight back because they justifiably believe they will be killed whether they fight back or not.
I got up this morning and saw Siun had written a thread about the MV Rachel Corrie, and that it had almost 200 comments. I then read through them, getting sadder as I went. Now I’m here at the end.
The Israelis were fully capable of disabling the vessels without boarding them. They could have waited until morning to do this, as the recorded tracks of the vessels, as monitored on the internet at the time, showed them slowly getting further away from the coast. I know – I watched it on google maps as it happened.
The skippers of the flotilla who were in contact with the IDF announced their intention to not approach the coast until daylight. I know, because people on the vessels tweeted about it in the last hour before the Israelis opened fire.
All of this stuff is on the web and time tagged. Please note that the IDF videos that have been released have had their time tags removed – at least all those I’ve seen so far.
Anyone who, in light of these known facts, chooses to then cite various laws meant to apply to actual war in defense of this, is also, in my opinion, defending what many Israeli military experts are quietly and not-so-quiertly calling “stupidity.”
Ok,
I’ve come to FDL with opinions, read both points of view, then researched to determine if my opinion held up.
In this case I’m not pro-Israel, but up in the original story was this:
I was curious to know if that was true. I read the applicable laws and believe that it’s not. Notice I haven’t argued that what Israel did was good.
Similarly, the first thing I did when the Arizona Immigration issue came up was read the law. It’s a lot easier to yell RACIST or declare that you know the intent without any proof.
By the way, this has also worked to change my opinion to be more FDL-like on some aspects of HCR.
At least we can agree that the “Mess with the Bull” comment was funny.
Ha. No, it was something like “Is this comment on topic? Is it civil and does it move the conversation forward?. Something like that.
No, they stated their intent to break the blockade. Sheesh, can’t we even get the basic facts straight?
Good riddance. We shall somehow survive without you. It will be oh so difficult, but we shall rise to the occasion.
Before you swear Israel is only looking for weapons, you just might want to check out the list of items Israel has banned into Gaza for years and years because they deem it a threat. It’s an absurd list being used as their cover for a slow, cruel death to the Gazans.
Give it up.
A last message:
Thank you all for the confidence but I don’t have much more to add. I am expatriated from the country, of my volition. I experienced a situation where my voice was eliminated in a court of law, that elimination cost me everything I had, nearly my life, depression drives self-destruction. In that action, I had to prove my innocence against a story told, so my lawyer stated, by a pathological liar. I did not prevail, my public innocence was usurped and destroyed as well. You would not guess the power of NO, the power of innocence that has been taken from me. I am not tolerating any further curtailment of my voice, by anyone for any reason. If you do not like what I have to say, move on to something else, BUT DO NOT MESS with my voice, EVER.
I have cancelled the notices from FDL. Thank you commentators again, you are a wonderful resource, especially Siun, Leen, and MarkromIreland.(I am missing loads others to mention as well)
You must have been listening to the spiritual being on the unfavored shoulder.
First, the “San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea” isn’t a binding treaty defining international law, it’s a framework for expanding customary international law.
Second, the entire purpose of the San Remo Manual was to address conditions of naval conflict during warfare. That was the stated goal of its authors. It’s supposed to act as an addendum to existing law codifying the rules for warfare on land.
Third, the term “belligerent(s)” in international law on armed conflict refers to state-actors. Belligerent states.
Razor, you and I had a nice conversation yesterday and now you’re back banging people over the head. Their intention may have been to break the blockade but they had not. They stopped. So they were boarded without having done anything except be there. And the idea that the soldiers were in any danger is absurd. And people who were not armed are DEAD! Doesn’t that matter?
Margaret’s subjective opinions render all others irrelevant today.
Nice snark.
I don’t know if I did or not. The law talks about States and also belligerent forces, so maybe they’re not state-actors.
I’ll do some more digging.
You Angel You
NA
Oops, looks like you already answered.
If Hamas would give up there hatred, the Palestinians would live in peace. Hamas is the problem, not the Jews. Ask Egypt and Jordan. Gaza is not in bad shape. Go on the web and see Gaza and the nightlife. You will be surprised.Israel has a right to do everything they can to protect their people. Asking Hamas to stop rockets is not to much to ask. Again, Hamas is bent on destroying Israel. Why this does not bother progressives amazes me. Maybe you agree with Hamas.
I read about those pictures of the Gaza “night life” and it was stated that they were taken years ago. Want to try another approach?
Four soldiers in the hospital, one near death. Nope. Soldiers never in any danger. Try smacking a US navy seal. Me thinks you will pay a price.
Mason, really, noone agrees more with the first part of your comment than I do, but I can’t see where it relates even tangentially to my comment that you were responding to.
I admire your firebrand spirit, and have been chastised often here for perhaps sharing it too much, but I think we are talking past each other here.
The menu from the deli has this years date on it. Look them up for yourself. The pictures are a click away.
I share your sentiments, but reality intrudes anyway.
Good riddance again.
Hey clemenza, I responded to your earlier question about responding to paranoia and sociopathy.
(Crossing my fingers and hoping you don’t ask any more “simple” questions today – they take a long time to answer! ;-) ).
Hamas has now refused to accept the aid from the ships. The Rafah terminal is reporting the Aid for the Palestinian people has been refused by HAMAS.
I did not blame anyone. I stated, in response to your question about why Egypt was blockading Gaza, that the American government bought the Egyptian government with “aid” money. I still say that and I find it an acceptable response. There is no blame assigned in my statement.
Let’s keep it nice, I have no quarrel with you. But understand that it is a bit of a strain to be one of only a couple of voices standing against a howling mob of unanimity. All the ad hominem attacks today have been AGAINST me, not FROM me.
I’ll say again, we don’t know all the facts, we have conflicitng accounts, as well as confusion (including on my part) about the specific applicable law.
But one thing that really seems beyond dispute is that the very purpose and intent of the flotilla was to break the blockade or create a PR disaster by provoking a violent Israeli reaction. Read the NYT quotes today. I don’t know why you would want to completely ignore that if the goal is to make an honest inquiry and analysis.
Re danger–I saw for myself many arms swinging clubs at a few soldiers. That’s danger.
You’re welcome to keep digging if you want to, but the entire interlude regarding the San Remo Manual is a non-sequitur. I’ve seen other people bring up the Helsinki Principles as another supposed “international law” governing maritime conflict. So you don’t waste your time on that one, it’s a document published by the International Law Association back in 1998. It’s basically an academic paper, not international law.
The only international law that I know of that would cover this is the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, except that neither Israel nor Turkey are signatories to it, and for our part we haven’t ratified it here.
The discussion about international waters is really about how we deal with Israel being in violation of our laws/norms (‘our’ as in almost the entire rest of the planet). Like, would we tolerate Israel’s blockade encompassing the entire Mediterranean? After all, they don’t recognize international waters through any mutual framework. They wouldn’t be in violation of anything they agreed to.
Make sense?
~~~ModNote: As this thread returns to a cogent discussion about the issues at hand, let’s curtail the ad hominen, please.~~~
NO, T-Bear, don’t go. What happened? Did I miss something?
of course they wanted the PR. it was their strategy to meet their goal. if they could have been left alone to deliver the aid, who would have needed the PR? instead, israel warned them; they decided to continue – because their mission of freeing the gazans from distress was more important to them than what might happen to them. courageous heros, in my opinion.
I think in an effort to corral an unruly and flame-prone thread, a comment was edited. I sympathize with all parties involved.
You are saying America has bought off Egypt so that they will close the border? Wow. Nothing to do with Hamas? Wow. Whatever. Real clear politics has a new video of the incident. Check it out. Dramatic. The peace lovers fired on the Israelis first. Check it out.
I guess they’re not all that hungry, then. Or is PR more important, once again, than taking care of their people?
((((T-Bear)))). Love to you, honey.
To clarify my own position. I don’t really care who fired at who first. The IDF had no legitimacy boarding the ship in the first place, and definitely not via a hostile arial commando raid.
As I noted in a different thread, if the IDF wanted to deal with the flotilla in a non-batshit way, they should have just disabled the rudders of the larger vessels, and used some of the 78-ton tugboats in their naval fleet to shoulder them to shore. Full stop.
“Make sense?” Well no, not really, with all respect, it doesn’t. There was proximity here and clear intent to make a landing.
My sense is that we could argue applicable law here for a decade and never get clarity. I’m just amazed how worked up people get in the absence of clarity.
But their alternate goal of breaking the blockade was also unacceptable from the Israeli perspective, and they knew it would be going in. I don’t understand why you leave out that part of the equation.
~~~We request that all participants step back, take a breath, and remember that this is a conversation forum, not a place to flame or incite others.~~~
Would you not have also deemed that illegaL?
Ppeace terrorists fired first. Hamas refuses the aid. It is not about the people. It is about the destruction of Israel.
Ever wonder why only the Israel-related threads require you to work so hard? At least I’m being good today lol. But I thought about my vow to “never again” participate on these issues, and couldn’t come up with a good reason why the contra-majority viewpoint should not be represented.
But I will certainly continue to behave myself. ;-)
Probably time to stop taking the bait.
No bait. Just the facts. Seems the facts do not meet your agenda.
There is no applicable codified maritime law governing either Israel or Turkey. That’s perfectly clear. So I have no idea what ambiguity you’re talking about.
Palestinians from Rafah are saying outdated medicine was part of the aid.Does not matter what the aid was. HAMAS has refused the aid. Yep. Sent it back. So much for the people.
Your paranoia is showing. Everything is about the destruction of Israel. This is about food and medicine and building supplies for people who have nothing. It’s about unarmed people being shot by an illegal boarding party. Are only Israeli lives special?
Ambiguity would seem to be all we have surrounding several of the key issues here. And a determination to completely ignore several very unpoular facts, as well.
Peace will come to the middle east when the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews.
I don’t deem what Israel did as being illegal, except for the blockade itself, because they’re violating the 4th Geneva Convention which Israel has signed and ratified. That’s why they have no legitimacy intercepting that ship at sea, and absolutely not in the way they did.
So, even if they had just disabled the vessels and escorted them ashore, I’d still say they had no legitimacy in doing so. That’s irrespective of it being significantly less batshit than a hostile arial commando raid. I mean seriously? Why not just torpedo them in open water if you’re going to go that far?
Why is Israel acting this way? Chicken, meet egg.
Thank you, Golda
With all due respect, I believe your comment was over the line, although I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not intend to disparage Jews.
Yes, the MSM’s use of stock film depicting Muslims rioting and burning was racist commentary because the intent behind showing the clip at that time was to say, in effect, that all Muslims are crazy and violent thereby justifying Israel’s violent, reprehensible, and unlawful interception of the humanitarian flotilla. The clip itself was just a film clip.
Your reference to “pictures of Jews gleefully salivating over piles of money,” is offensive because it presumes such activity has taken place and pictures of it exist somewhere. Neither presumption is valid. The image to which you referred is an extremely offensive racial stereotype of Jews, as you know, and since no film clips of such activity exist, it would not have been possible to display them in the background in a point, counterpoint manner.
You could have avoided most of the controversy your comment created if you had said,
“The use of stock film depicting Muslims rioting and burning was racist commentary because the intent behind showing the clip at that time was to say, in effect, that all Muslims are crazy and violent. I am as offended by that racist characterization of Muslims as I would have been if the talking head on the show had referred to Jews as gleefully salivating over piles of money.”
That offensive stereotype, btw, is best handled by never using it.
Meanwhile, all of us need to distinguish between the actions of Israeli citizens and their government. For example, I would deeply resent anyone assuming I support our government’s illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the use of drones to deliberately kill innocent civilians in order to terrorize the local population into submission. Many Israeli’s abhor the actions of their government.
Kojo Nnambdi interviewed Edward Peck, who was on one of the flotilla’s passenger ships: . And Hamas didn’t just refuse the aid and send it back: . Note that the sources cited are CNN and Jerusalem Post.
(Sorry about all the \ marks. I’m using a public computer and must go now!)
Go to real clear politics and see the new video. It shows the Israelis coming under fire before the first boot hits the ground. Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel, not me. I just believe them when they say it. They are in charge of Gaza, and Israel has a right to inspect everything that goes to the terrorists. UAE sent 70 tons of supplies that went right through the inspection. Hamas refused the aid from the activists boat. Why?
Hey “Moderators” – care to deign to deign the grounds on which you’re deleting comments?
Please provide specific examples that justify your decisions, since clearly there’s a need for an objective reference as to what FDL considers acceptable.
Or must we never dare question the opinion of “Moderators”? If that were the case, then “Moderation” here would simply be a synonym for “Acts of Arbitrary Censorship, Personal Preference And Favoritism.”
Moderation can sometimes be a very good thing in our discussion of public affairs.
Arbitrary censorship – particularly of a person’s defense of their position in the face of insult and defamation – rarely is.
I have no true expertise in the legal issues involved, don’t know if anyone truly does, as opposed to a willingness to bloviate about them, lawyers included. I have a good grasp of the moral, I think. I don’t know how much true relevant legal expertise you have (although I’ve had high regard for your thoughts on other issues), and I’m quite sure that most here have none.
So, I am distressed to see everyone lined up on one side, and ignoring any facts or arguments that support or mitigate the other side. Of which I see several.
If you think anyone but the Israelis are in charge of Gaza I like to see the evidence. They control the supply of everything and they have them fenced in. Like cattle as I said earlier. You cannot in good conscience defend the treatment of the Palestinians. You just can’t – it’s inhumane.
Geneva convention does not apply here. Sorry. Terrorists like Hamas are not covered. Rachel Corrie will be stopped also. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
Heres your proof. Egypt. Sorry about the facts.
That is a racist and extremely offensive remark.
Hamas saying today that they recognize Israels right to exist and stopping rocket attacks, and we are at the peace table. Iran controls Hamas, so this aint gonna happen.
That is a quote from Golda Mier. I do not see the racism though. Arabs do hate the Jews. Read their Koran. It calls them swine, worthy of death. Sorry. Just the facts.
You are at least consistent. Israel is always right; everybody else is wrong; everybody is mean to Israel, boohoo. Israel is a nuclear power with enough arms to remove the entire ME so don’t crybaby to me.
I endorse that wholeheartedly.
You’re unfortunately quite incorrect. The Geneva convention does apply. Both to the people in Gaza who are currently victims of collective punishment, which is strictly forbidden, and the the Hamas militants. There are specific categorizations for irregulars and unlawful combatants, as well as catchall clauses for others. Including provisions that cover scenarios of civil-war.
But they don’t use their nukes. What does that tell you?
True. Israel has nukes. Notice how they have never used them. Iran says they will. The Holocaust makes me sympathetic to the Jews. I see no reason why they are the only country in the world that most of the Arab world does not even admit they exist. Many an Arab country teaches their children to hate them. The Arab maps do not show Israel existing. If Vermont were rocketed by Canada, what would our response be. No other country in the world would put up with thousands of rocket attacks. Remember all the homicide bombings of the past. Remember Munich? At the peaceful Olympics they were killed.Asking to be recognized seems like a no brainer to me. If the Arabs wanted peace, and the Israelis refused, I would rail against the Jews. All I want is peace.
I made no mention of whose blood, did I?
Don’t assign your prejudices to me, thank you.
The Geneva convention covers soldiers in uniform. In order to be covered by the geneva convention, you must abide by it. Example. Soldiers are not allowed to fire at hospitals. Now, if you fire at your enemy from a hospital, you are no longer covered. You can not hide behind the rules, you must follow them.
The problem with that is that Israel was trying to sell nukes to South Africa back when the apartheidists controlled it — and probably helped the apartheid SA regime figure out how to make its own nukes.
So much for being trustworthy.
Well, then I am perplexed by your transition from a comment about ambiguity to one about blood. Or did you use red to describe a robin in your yard? If so, excuuuuuuuse me!
You are incorrect. The Geneva Convention does not only cover uniformed soldiers, that’s just the requirement to be considered a POW (there are other metrics for irregulars as well). Wherein you haven’t committed any specific crime to be tried for, just fighting as part of a formal opposition force.
There are other categories as well. The Convention even covers unlawful combatants and unaffiliated forces, etc.
Being a terrorist is a criminal designation under Geneva, as is being an unaffiliated saboteur.
You are also incorrect about the kind of trigger-nullification of the Convention you assert. Simply because an opposing entity does not abide by them, does not invalidate your duty to do so. It just means they’re in contravention of the provisions, and that changes their designations. Regular, irregular, unlawful, etc.
Regardless of any of that, collective punishment is very strictly forbidden no matter what designation you end up assigning to Hamas militants. Sorry.
Thanks for responding (though with the censorship it’s not at all clear you’re responding to me – forgive me if I’m mistaken in my assumption).
You’ve made two points to which I’d like to respond.
The first is that there’s some difference between pejorative images depending on their sources, that somehow because one image was generated photographically and another might not have been that one is somehow more “real” and less pejorative than the other.
I don’t believe this distinction is meaningful. Would it somehow be inappropriate to use a caricature of a black man lasciviously eyeing a white woman – but acceptable if instead what was used was a picture of a black man in prison chains being convicted of rape? How about a picture of Lloyd Blankfein or Jamie Dimon on their estates, instead of a WWII propaganda drawing? They may stem from different sources, but the intent and the effect is the same. To me, that is the basis on which they should be judged.
I’ll also state that it’s sometimes easier to lie with a photograph than it is with a synthetic image. The ultimate assessment of what constitutes “reality” is something that is left up to each of us to judge for ourselves.
You also make the statement
but in strict point of fact you have no evidence whatsoever to back up that assertion. You might prefer to believe it’s true (as would we all, I would hope), but you simply pronouncing that such a thing cannot possibly exist in no way makes that true.
That isn’t a justification of stereotype, but an unwillingness to accept arbitrary personal opinions as statements of global fact. In the search for common ground such logical errors must always be identified and resisted.
I suppose I could get the Israeli friend who first explained to me the Israeli relationship to money to pose for a picture – would that somehow make it a “real” event? How do you know how one picture is “real” and the other is not? In the case of the picture used by the WaPo, what were the circumstances under which it was taken? And who gets to decide what’s “real” enough?
The only answer, to me, is to judge the images (photographic, synthetic, verbal) the way I’d hope we do with people – all equally.
My approach is exactly the opposite. I find that the best way to live is to assume other people are adults and can respond in an adult manner, they can manage their own emotional reactions, they can ask questions when they have some question as to meaning, and they enter into discourse from a position of mutual respect and can tolerate disagreement.
The “it’s best to never use it” panders to the least capable, the most reactive, in general the lowest possible common denominator of interaction. In my opinion and experience, this fearful political correctness as cover for our own prejudice creates neither a society in which I’d want to live, nor a society that can face and respond to adult challenges. I’d argue that it’s a society that cannot even survive.
I agree very much with the need to understand the culpability of each individual (which you stated as needing to distinguish between the actions of citizens and governments). Your examples of the actions of the Israeli and American governments not being supported by all the citizens of those countries are examples I’ve used here myself. I would want to add that I believe it’s important for all of us to consider our individual responsibility for the behaviors of our government even though we don’t “approve” of them. For example, while some Americans might not support the use of drones for assassinations, if they pay federal taxes then in effect they actively and directly support it – which is far more significant than any verbal argument or moral position they might take. So I agree that one must distinguish between the actions of citizens and their government, but I also say we must understand when apparent disagreements in position hide implicit culpability as well.
I appreciate that you’d take the time to explain your positions, and I appreciate as well what I hope is your consideration of mine. I don’t claim I’ll always be swayed by yours, but I will most certainly take them into account, particularly when dealing with you personally.
Thank you, and I hope you have a nice day.
This is funny, my browser keeps auto-correcting aerial to arial, like the font. Anyway, please adjust your reading accordingly. I was not trying to insinuate that the IDF was assaulting the flotilla using generic web fonts.
You are wrong. Being caught out of uniform makes you, yikes, a spy. If you fire at me from a mosque, I can blow the mosque to hell if I so choose. I can not fire on a mosque just cuz I feel like it. Where in the Geneva convention does it say you can use suicide bombers. How about rockets fired at civilians just because Hamas wants to. Why no progressive agrees that recognizing Israel as a country may be a good thing. Why no blame for HAMAS. Hamas is a terror wing of Iran.
This is untrue propaganda.
Being out of uniform doesn’t make you a “spy” according to the Geneva Conventions. There’s no provision against using suicide bombers. Japanese kamikaze pilots weren’t unlawful combatants, or terrorists, because they committed suicide while attacking military targets.
It’s what you attack, how you attack it, and what you use to represent yourself when you do so. And no matter what the case, there’s a provision in the Geneva Conventions to apply. You can be a regular soldier, an irregular soldier, an unlawful combatant, etc. Again, there are catchall clauses to make sure everyone is covered, and has an assignable status.
And again, all of that is not at all germane to whether or not collective punishment is legitimate. Under no circumstances is it provisioned for. Collective punishment is specifically forbidden.
You are making that shit up. I am retired from the army. You can bomb a city to stop the enemy. Civilians would be killed. This is not against the rules. Targeting civilians is. Collateral damage is not. You better be in your countries uniform, or you can be executed. If you are caught in any oyher attire other than your countries uniform, you can be executed. You are either civilian or combatant. No gray area here. If you do not follow the rules of war, you are not covered. war is hell. Fast and furious. Hiding behind a civilian and shooting at me gets you and the civilian killed. I will not get in trouble for shooting that civilian.
Nathan, you got any special creds in this area? I asked before, and got no response.
Geneva convention is easily obtained on the web, I am sure.
I don’t give a shit if you’re retired Army. I’ve read the law, and studied the cases of its invocation, and its addenda, since it was established.
Collective punishment is not the same thing as collateral damage. Collective punishment != collateral damage. It has a specific definition. Israel’s blockade (both sea and land) is a textbook example of collective punishment. Essentially a militarized siege laid to an entire population in an attempt to root out the malefactors embedded within.
Your being retired military doesn’t make that any less a violation of a treaty that Israel signed and ratified.
And know, you’re not either a civilian or a combatant. There are gradations of combatants, and civilians for that matter. You can be regular military, irregular military (organized insurgents, militia, paramilitary), you can be an unlawful combatant (unorganized or unrecognized insurgent, militia, para military), you can be a terrorist (civilian criminal), etc. I’m pretty sure they’re supposed to teach you this stuff in the Army.
MV Rachel Corrie
Spirit of Freedom
9/11 Holocaust
Spirit of Truth
Thanks,
Ireland
Sorry, didn’t see you ask before.
No special creds. Just piles of books, access to LexisNexis, prosecutors I can bounce questions off of, and free-time.
I scored a 167 on the LSAT several years ago, but that didn’t imbue any credentials. :-) I took it for fun with some friends that were planning on going to law school. I wanted to see how I’d do without any prep.
I went into business for myself instead of going to law school.
I did go to law school, and never lost a case in litigation. But I would never express a hard opinion without extensive research and analysis of the law and facts from every conceivable angle, and even then, I’d know my opponent was going to come up with some strong contrary arguments.
It is in the nature of law, and international law especially, that every point can be credibly argued in good faith almost ad infinitum. So I find the knee-jerk unanimity of hostility toward Israel very distressing, when I see many unresolved ambiguities, and have a knowledge of the background history that created the present lamentable situation.
Such unanimous certainty cannot be rationally supportedd on the instant facts. Which suggests prejudice to me, or ignorance. Not on your part necessarily, I have the highest regard for you, but I fear on the part of many. It is very distressing to see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention
Article 33
Why would you expect that anyone here would regard your comment with anything but scorn, contempt, and derision?
The IDF did not find any guns, ammunition, or bombs on board any of the vessels in the flotilla, yet you would have us believe that people on a humanitarian mercy mission with nothing more than the equivalent of a few sticks and stones available to defend themselves, deliberately attacked trained professional killers (i.e., commandos), who repelled aboard the ship before dawn in international waters after discharging stun grenades and strafing the deck with automatic weapons to announce their arrival and murderous intent, because they wanted to provoke the killers into a murderous rampage for PR purposes!
Do you realize how absurd and stupid your argument is?
Clueless nonsense!
Meh. I don’t find anything compelling about the narrative that Israel is significantly under threat of anything enough to warrant blanket violations of international war and humanitarian law. They’re a nuclear power, they’re an exceedingly agressive military state (democratically elected or not), and as far as I’m concerned their bullets and bombs have my first and last name printed right on the side thanks to the completely asinine support of my own government.
My overall attitude toward Israel is primarily that I don’t care about it. It has no strategic or material value to anything that can be remotely construed as U.S. interest other than via some kind of perverse circular logic where Israel is essential to the U.S. for its own sake. I’d rather keep school teachers employed, highways paved, and the elderly covered, clothed, and fed than make sure Israel is armed to the teeth and itching for a reason to show it. The entire investment in militarizing Israel is a spectacular fucking waste of time and money, and will bring about “peace” about as quickly as Predator Drone strikes will bring about an end to “terrorism.”
If some kind of massive humanitarian crisis were befalling the people that occupied it, and they happened to be Hebrew rather than Arab, then I’d be just as much against that atrocity, and would always err on the side of the claims of the oppressed. Israel is not the weaker party here, as they constantly like to brag about the entire rest of the time they’re not brandishing their persecution-complex.
The blockade of Gaza is so utterly bereft of legitimacy that I just assume it’s some kind of clumsy attempt to get Stockholm Syndrome to set in on the Palestinian population, otherwise it’s just an unnecessarily brutal act of dickish-fuckery.
They could not know what was on board before they searched, right?
Israelis got injured too, right? How did that happen?
The ignorant are always so certain.
Except for the manifests generated and checked at every port?
The right to self-defense dramatically complicates all the legal issues, Nathan. As does the less-than-pure intentions of the flotilla people.
Israel may have nukes, but can’t use them, and does not use them. So, they might as well not exist. They do suffer casualties. What would you do if your people were getting rocketed? It’s an ugly situation, and I can’t honestly see purity on either side. But I have a lot of trouble believing Israel would oppress the Palestinians if they were not subjected to attacks from Palestinian terrotory.
Once anyone employs violence, the jungles rules will always take over. If I were in charge, the initial violence would never happen. But I’m not in charge.
Why would they trust that? Their clear policy has always been to take total responsibility for their own ssecurity. I believe we follow the same policy.
I was always taught not to judge until I stood in the other guy’s shoes. I see noone here even attempting to follow that guidance.
No time and date stamps, questionable sourcing, looks like day footage (other video’s with time/date stamps don’t have this lighting), and who knows what ship that was, when it was, or who any of it was.
Coulda been staged, for all that matter, somewhere else, shot a year ago.
Your remark is not responsive. You claimed the people on the Turkish Ferry attacked the commandos to create a PR incident as opposed to acting in self defense when the commandos repelled aboard the ship before dawn in international waters after discharging stun grenades and strafing the deck with automatic weapons to announce their arrival and murderous intent.
People on a humanitarian mercy mission defended themselves with nothing more than the equivalent of a few sticks and stones against trained professional killers armed with fully automatic weapons who dropped in uninvited out of the predawn skies in international waters after discharging stun grenades and strafing the deck with automatic weapons to announce their arrival and murderous intent. We don’t know the death toll yet, but it could be as many as 19 humanitarians on a mercy mission. One soldier may die and three others were injured. We don’t know how many humanitarians were injured.
There’s no crying in baseball!
Are you saying BP did it?
What do you do when the other guy’s feet are several sizes smaller?
Don’t be twisting my stuff up to make it look like I’m against SD.
MY POV was regarding civil disobedience.
SD is simply saying if HE was boarded, he’d fight back.
Apples n oranges.
Do NOT misuse my comments in this manner.
You do not understand how much this Israeli government hates the Palestinian people and Arabs in general.
You mean you’re trying your best to create ambiguity in a perfectly clear situation? I really am getting sick of lawyers who think they’re ALWAYS the smartest people in the room. You’re smug position begs the only question worth asking, one whose answer is so clear as to render it rhetorical:
When is it legal for fully-armed soldiers to forcibly board a foreign-flagged civilian vessel in international waters?
And razorbrain-were you offended by the unanimous, knee-jerk condemnation of BushCo policies here? Did that put you on guard for an anti-GOP witch hunt?
Also, have to say in re: this thread and this site, generally: the PC censorship at times is a bit much…and a bit arbitrary-stevepatriquin’s comments here are characterized just as much by offensive broadsides at muslims as any other is by anti-semitism. Why the double-standard?
How does the right to self-defense complicate Geneva IV? The Convention is specifically for the purpose of restricting action in precisely the condition that you’re actively undertaking self-defense.
Why can’t Israel use their nuclear weapons? Are they not functional?
My response to being rocketed is to assess why I’m being rocketed, and to attempt to do so without delusions of exceptionalism. Radicalization doesn’t happen on accident, it’s the symptom of something else. So figure out what that something else is. Whatever the conclusion, my solution would not include building a mass poverty pit, and laying siege to it. Why? Because that’s more than likely not going to help anything, and would have all the appearances of making things worse. Clearly it doesn’t work, rocket attacks happen anyway.
Further, if the opposing party is literally dedicated to my complete eradication, and they have anything resembling the means to do so, then logically I would assume that they already would have done so. Otherwise they lack either the means or the will. Thus my continued existence to ponder this question would indicate that they in fact cannot or would not eradicate me. If they don’t have the means or the will, then the paranoia surrounding their bluster is just that, paranoia. Being the victim of a rocket attack is a statistically insignificant aberration among all the ways you can die or be killed as an Israeli. Being impoverished and starving is nearly a certitude in Gaza.
What’s the leading cause of death in Israel? Is it Gazan rocket attacks? No? Then get to waging a military campaign against that thing and choke the life out of it. Israel dealing with this problem like this absolutely reeks of U.S. policy. Our reaction to 9/11 is a bad joke. The flu kills more people every month in this country than Islamic radicals have managed to muster in the entirety of U.S. history. Where’s our war on the flu? 9/11 and the Gazan rocket strikes just provide a quasi-legitimate cover for authoritarian sociopaths to get their rocks off orchestrating the death and dismemberment of other people. Full stop. There’s no sensibility at all to the way we handle these things.
If you were being systematically starved, deprived of basic materials for life and commerce, had your cultural and social development continually stamped out by a foreign entity, and who wore the treasure they stole from you around their necks and asses in the form of unmitigated amounts of worthless human fat as a constant “fuck you”… what would you do?
Ya lost me here . . . .
~~~ModNote: Continued attempts to derail this or any thread are subject to moderation.~~~
Nathan, I respect you too much to fight with you, and I’m in a bad mood right now from dealing with others who don’t deserve the respect you do. And I’m tired of this.
So, I’ll just say, you don’t use nukes against isolated attacks unless you’re insane, and if Israel wanted to eradicate the Palestinians, they would also have done so, right, by your reasoning?
And none of us here are expert in the international law everybody is throwing about as though they understood it.
See you on a more rational thread. Peace.