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by hoyasmeg
Because it’s always “Israel, right or wrong” with the American Likudniks, aka “conservatives.”
Israel should continue the Gaza blockade for as long as it thinks its security requires it. They are our enemies, too. I’m pretty sure that most Israelis know the score, and I think most Americans do. The Obama administration? I’m not so sure.
Having been too meek on too many fronts for too long, it’s a good opportunity for American Jewry to step up to the plate and take on that task — and be prepared to also take on the administration should Obama be less than fulsome in his support of Israel’s right of self-defense.
But on the White House website ? Not a whisper. Not a blog post. Nothing. This is to be expected. It takes time to craft a statement that stabs your best ally in the back without making it appear that you are doing so.
Nothing like invoking Der Dolchstoßlegende in a pro-Israeli/anti-American rant. Apparently, the irony is lost.
Every time something like this happens, I’m always amazed that America’s “conservatives” — who love to wrap themselves in the flag and brag about how patriotic they are — automatically side with a foreign government over their own.
It’s deeply bizarre.
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They’re siding with the neocons and Likudniks, such as Doug Feith, the guy who gave us the Office of Special Plans and who Gen. Tommy Franks famously described as “the stupidest fucking guy on the face of the earth”.
Meanwhile, sane Israelis are condemning their government over this attack:
“deeply bizarre.” True.
And, as we knew of course, ignorant – Commentary (Jennifer Rubin) doesn’t know the meaning of “fulsome.”
It’s not bizarre. If they don’t kiss Israel’s ass AIPAC will cut off their campaign dust.
The Right’s support of Israel proves Israel is evil. It’s basic logic.
Speaking of “peace partners,” the US long ago forfeited any right it may have had to act as an “honest broker.” Anywhere.
What is even more bizarre is that they are making these criticisms about an Administration that is as extreme in its support of Israel as they are.
So now if they don’t rush out to french kiss Israel and AIPAC butt, the Orahma administration supports terrorists. never mind that the single biggest Zionist ever has a really super high position in the White House and is, in fact, in Israel as we speak. perhaps the wingers think Orahma should give them predators with which to slaughter more Gaza residents.
It’s because Obama and Short Ride haven’t been on Fox News, hand in hand, praising Israel for its “compassion and restraint” in its dealings with civilian activists.
Ugggggghhhhh. You just had to bring Holy Joe into it.
Sorry, been sayin’ that all morning. *g*
Speaking of which SouthernDragon, I don’t get the “Short Ride” reference. Maybe I’m just being obtuse. Will you explain that one for me? :-)
Maybe you are right. Here is some right wing nut thinking.
No peace in the Middle East is possible for one reason. The Palestinians and some Arabs have as their goal to reverse the 1948 establishment of Israel. Note, some Arabs and Persians, not all.
You have two things that cannot exist at the same time.
1. pre-1948 conditions
2. Israel
One, or the the other must give way for there to be peace.
I think that many, maybe even a majority of Arabs, Palestinians and Persians could be satisfied with something on the order of pre-1967 conditions and two states side by side.
Unfortunately, those are not the Palestinians, Arabs or Persians in charge.
To me, Gaza was a key. Rather than accept Gaza being reinstated to their control and doing all they could to establish good relations with Israel, Gaza was simply set up and used as a launching pad for attacks.
Had cooperation been the order of the day, the blockades, etc. would have been reduced and not tightened.
IF you don’t have blinders on, this was easy to see coming. Since the goal is rolling back to pre-1948 and not 1967, the actions by Hamas in Gaza are very easy to understand. You wouldn’t expect anything different.
The flotilla was part of the same idea.
Maybe someone can prove that lifting the blockage would not result in large imports of weapons used to attack Israel. Or give some sane reason why we should believe otherwise.
Until either Israel gives up the idea of existing, or Palestinian leaders give up the idea of pre-1948 conditions, there will be no peace. There is no sign either is willing to do so.
It comes from a statement he made about public funding for abortion. He said it would only be a “short ride” to another hospital that would do an emergency abortion. I’d have to search for the statement but iirc it was during the Lamont campaign.
Aren’t we lucky that the rest of the world hasn’t adopted this Military Brass Balls thing to addressing mankind’s problems….yet
The drones, the blockades, the boardings, the occupations of lesser people since we are “GOD”s” people.
I think a just God would say fuck you both, may your countries ,that claim God’s leadership, devolve to a type of hell on earth and I’ll raise you 50,000 barrels of oil a day to speed your demise.
For me, that might be the most dysfunctional aspect of the US response.
Obama’s response: wrong, off target
GOP response: Obama wrong, off target because the wrong guy said it.
crazy.
The Likudniks just screwed the pooch on this one.
They thought it was still 1967, when they could attack a US Navy ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing and wounding two-thirds of its crew, and get away with it. That ain’t happening now.
Turkey, their strongest Mideast ally, has now not only bailed on them, but is very close to actually declaring what Israel did an act of war — and will be sending military escorts to protect all future Freedom Flotillas. Egypt, who Israel pressured into helping it maintain the starvation blockade on Gaza, has now lifted it on the Rafah point of entry — the one portion of Gaza’s borders that Israel does not totally control.
They’ve managed in one swift move to not only end the very blockade they were trying to uphold, but to eliminate what few friends they had left in the Mideast.
Oh, and the Turks, being NATO members, can exert leverage on the US by kicking us and our military bases out of their country. That would make it a whole lot harder to wage the Iraq and AfPak wars.
Ah! Of course. I remember that one. Thanks. :-)
Questioning the US president or his administrations position = siding with a foreign government over their own.
Wheelchairs and water purifiers are weapons of war?
Oh, and maybe Israel wouldn’t have to worry so much about attacks if it didn’t do things like try to starve Gaza.
Right after that either a front pager or commenter referred to him as Short Ride and I’ve done it ever since.
Let’s also keep in mind that in this digitally wired and wireless age we now live in, the old stand by lies just don’t fly. Not with reality based people anyway but I wouldn’t expect that to affect conservatives. They still seem to have a hard time wrapping their brains around the fact that their statements are often recorded
And that is the truly tragic thing…after Bush/Cheney threw out the rule book, anything goes. We have absolutely no credibility about anything, because we have done all the bad things that we don’t like others to do.
No longer do we stand for freedom, humanitarianism, and doing the “right” thing. It’s power power power. And money. And power.
Gaza = 21st century concentration camp
Maybe if someone threw you out of you house, drove you from your property then bulldozed your family home, you might have a different outlook unless you’re chosen by god as “special”.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/
I remember that too, now that you bring it up. I’ve slept since then though. If that excuse doesn’t work, let me know and I’ll try to come up with another.
The abused has become the abuser.
Victor Frankl is rolling in his grave.
Here I was thinking it had something to do with the temple of doom but I guess that was Short Round.
Norman Finkelstein points out that the government of Israel thought long and hard on its reaction to the flotilla before carrying it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8
Yep, this was planned.
Neoliberalism at its best. I highly recommend Monday’s edition of Democracy Now! Chomsky speaks for an hour, one of his best imho, and pay particular attention to the last 10-15 minutes.
There was a law pending in CT that would allow the Catholic hospitals an exemption from the requirement that emergency contraception be supplied to all rape victims. Joe said the law wouldn’t be a barrier because in Connecticut, it’s just a “short ride” to another hospital. Because we presumed that “short ride” would by necessity be on a hospital gurney, Joe also has the less pleasant nickname “Rape Gurney” Joe, or RGJoe for short.
Barbara Boxer, of course, defended Joe by saying he had the support of “all the single issue choice groups” in DC and that he had never actually said that at all.
The oppressed have become the oppressors.
Thank you. Fucked it up as only I could.
No, not at all — your explanation was fine, I only meant to expand on it.
Back to work.
Namaste
This is why oppressing people is never a good idea. Eventually they will come to oppress you, (or somebody else). If we didn’t artificially prop up Israel, they would be eradicated almost immediately. I wonder if the Arabs would be less inclined to slaughter civilians and children than the Israelis are?
Gaza = 21st century Warsaw Ghetto
Who’s wearing the suiside vests down to market?
Ignoring ethics, Israel, because it can count on the US to do nothing, has very few downsides here. There won’t be another large sea operation again due to threats of violence and attendant increased costs. So long as the US has their backs the power of the oppressor will win the day. The use of fear to keep people from feeling that they have the right to be treated as human beings wasn’t invented by Israel but they have certainly made it into an art.
and lying his ass off. told Greg Sargent, the Israeli blockade was “internationally recognized”. who the fuck knew UN Sanctions meant international recognition ?!?!?
Has anyone in the administration made a statement about American citizens being held after being kidnapped in international waters? I haven’t seen a word. Stupid.
Suiside? But let that pass. You’re saying that because PLO member A commits a terrorist act, it justifies killing children B, C and D who are there through no choice of their own but due to the circumstance of their birthplace? Seriously, why do you come here? So we can have a resident Sociopath?
[modnote: please don't make it personal.]
This fundamentally irrational relationship of the U.S. government to the state of Israel cries out for making Israel the 51st state. At least then, they’ll pay the U.S. taxes instead of us shelling out money to this rogue state during an economic recession–if THAT isn’t the height of the Twilight Zone world of the neo-con Lukidniks that aren’t just in the Republican Party I’m extremely sorry to say then I don’t know what is.
Are there usually this many trolls on this site? Or is it just when we talk about the differences between US goals and those of Israel?
There are plenty of Jews in this country (and in Israel) who know we are NOT joined at the hip, shouldn’t be joined at a hip, and that our policies and strategies had better be different or we’ll wind up exactly where Weiner wants us to be — “us” against the world.
That’s not a leadership position — that’s a position that only a country with a paranoid outlook and a prison mentality can hold for very long.
Nuttyahoo is a war monger. It’s a shame the Israelis put him in power. But they did and now we have to deal with that fact — and it certainly should NOT be business as usual. Israel right or wrong is fine for them, it doesn’t work for the United States.
Israel is hurting us badly and we get to pay for it. Israel is NOT our country and we need to do what is best for us. Sound selfish? Maybe, but this is my country.
It’s not just the right-wingers reflexively defending unjustifiable murder and oppression by the IDF, unfortunately:
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/06/01/weiner_israel_raid/index.html
Even the usually progressive Rep. Weiner goes on villain rotation apparently. Reading a statement like that makes me feel filthy for giving him money (indirectly through FDL).
(.. Not that I’m necessarily criticizing FDL’s decision to support him in the context of the HCR debate.)
I was just at RS and HP, which are turning into propaganda wars between newly-minted Israeli apologists and regular posters. At least, the apologists for war crimes and murder on this site’s comment threads can spell.
The government of Israel has completely gone off the tracks. They want a war, and they want it now. This was as brazen an act of war by a government as any I’ve seen in my lifetime, and the Israeli navy indicates they intend to escalate the hostilities when the next ship arrives, which should be tomorrow. Egypt has lifted its blockade of Gaza and the Turks said they intend to send a military escort the next time one of its ships is used to bring relief to those suffering in the concentration camp Israel maintains there.
Associating oneself with this disgusting aggression ought to be the end of one’s political career, and anyone approving of it, or anyone attempting to blame the victims of this assault, is literally acting as an accessory after the fact for cold-blooded assassins and murderers. This was more than piracy. This was government-sanctioned murder, illegal detention, kidnapping, and an act of war against humanity.
Our “conservative” politicians ought to consider which nation they represent. After the Israelis decide to sink a ship, everyone else damn sure will.
Sorry to upset you.
I thought about your question for a while and answered. Isn’t that what people do here? I don’t think killing civilians and children is right for anyone. Your question wondered if “Arabs” would be less inclined to slaughter civilians and children than the Israelis are?
From a daily read of the headlines, I’d say no.
some ‘interim, deputy assistant underSoS’ muttered something about ‘waiting for facts on the ground’ blah, blah, blah.
and hey, President Doormat claimed to be ‘deeply troubled’
Where would you Democrats be without doltish propaganda from right-wing idiots, which you simply invert so Obama becomes the good guy?
Obama is just as devoted to Israeli interests as a Republican President would be, maybe more so, and this reality is unchanged by some right-wing Israel-firsters being oblivious to it.
They raided a ship from a NATO country in international waters and killed a score of civilians and Obama coddles and protects this criminality.
And ‘progressives’ enable this amorality from Democratic politicians, because, why, superior marketing?
fyi – Jane Hamsher was among the first to call him out for his HCR flim flammery
If we took half the money we send to Israel and put it into social security then the ss issue would be fixed. If we took the other half and put it into health care then maybe 45,000 Americans would not die each year from lack of care. So, Israel is killing Americans.
You’re right mod. My bad. Just trying to make a point in which I should have used an illustration instead. I’m sorry for the dig alan1tx.
Let’s say there is a drug house in your area and they are selling very dangerous dope to anybody and everybody with the money and are so unscrupulous that they cut their stuff with a poisonous substance and people are dying from it. The police are called and they make a mistake on the address and raid your home or some other innocent family’s home. They come in with stun grenades and guns blazing and one or more of your children is killed, is that collateral damage? What is the difference between that and what Israel is doing to children in Gaza and why?
I really am having a hard time with this. I’m so angry and outraged. Sent an e-mail to the WH and said, among other things, NO SECOND TERM. Some underling in the basement will no doubt be surprised.
Also if anything happens to Israel now then the Rapture can’t happen on schedule, and they’ll need a lot of time to get back to this point.
Conservative logic is irrational and illogical.
Fuck Obama. The Gulf of Mexico is Obama’s 9/11. Utter Fail. His love of all things Zionist is just another sticking point.
Now Obama is “deeply troubled?”
Wasn’t it just yesterday that he was “angry and frustrated with BP?”
Wow! Guy needs meds!
It’s gotten to the point that when the Rapture happens I don’t want any of their stuff any more.
Even if adults knowingly and intentionally put children in harm’s way or even hide behind them, those children have zero choice in the matter. No more than the minor child of any parent here has a choice in where they live. That makes the parents jerks but it doesn’t make the murder of the kids justifiable.
I think here the question is justification. The people of the occupied territories say that they have every right to defend themselves against the occupier and the occupier’s allies by any means they can in the same way Israel excuses it’s murderous attacks against the enslaved Palestinians by saying they are only trying to protect themselves.. Neither side has the “right” to kill non-combatants but in a war innocents will be slaughtered.
New here, I take it.
in a perverse way, I give Weiner credit for speaking publicly. Jerrold ‘The Settlements Aren’t Illegal !’ Nadler is in hiding, praying no one asks him to scuff up his progressive bona fides
too bad Weiner’s best humanitarian principles don’t apply universally.
This time may be different from all the others – I certainly hope so. What is it we fear from the Israelis and the Jews? We know that most Jews in the US don’t approve of actions like this at all. There are even demonstrations in Israel.
(((Twain))) ya got lots of company.
equally disturbing – there are people actually defending POTUS’s performance in the face of our destroyed Gulf.
Dude. No one said Obama was the good guy. Read all the comments. It’s more twisted than black/white.
Obama says what GOP would say and still gets bashed for it. Both camps are twisted. Seriously defective communication going on.
I’ve done that before. It hasn’t stopped the solicitations for a donation, so I presume anything less than flattering is simply discounted and ignored. We’re the little people who don’t know anything. Thank Wotan for our wise elected officials who inform us daily how ignorant we are, compared with their brilliant wisdom.
The U.S. watered down the UN S.C. resolution. When Israel’s blood lust kills more unarmed people on humanitarian missions, will the President have to get advice from one of his daughters before he realizes he’s siding with the aggressors?
It amazes me that a (perceived) far left-wing politician in the US (Weiner) would be so staunchly supportive of the extreme right-wing Israeli government, when there exists a large and influential moderate party (Kadima) in Israel itself (Tzipi Livni was said to favor a two-state solution including pre-1967 borders). You’d think Weiner would say something along the lines of “I support Israel, but the gov’t is too far to the right and makes mistakes, etc.” instead of “Israel and it’s right-wing gov’t can do whatever they want.”
*snort!*
Israeli finds fault with relief flotilla.
Same old schtick. President takes the neocon/neoliberal position. Neocons/neoliberals berate him for being so un-neocon/neoliberal. Progressives say “WTF?!” General public chews cud. Next outrage comes to the fore. Criminals get away.
Truly.
I can’t even list all the things Obama has done or failed to do that have disappointed me but here’s a start:
1. FISA
2. “bipartisanship”
3. drones
4. Gulf of Mexico
5. court appointees
6. Gitmo & related lawsuit moves
7. Wall Street “reforms”
8. Rahm
9. jobs
I know I’m forgetting some big ones. Like the wars.
Israel does not want peace. They want piece; one piece of Palestine at a time, until they have it all. Then they can start working toward acquiring all land occupied by Arabs, starting with Lebanon.
excellent summary. Addendum: Public pays bill.
Dealing with Israel: like your place got taken over by fire ants with an on-call elephant/lion herd to defend them against stompers.
No, it’s just trollish.
BT – here’s possible update material – Sarah Palin’s ghost-written statement, which she just posted on facebook:
At some point, soon I hope, I want to read everything about the people who died on this ship. They deserve to be spoken about for their dedication.
“Internationally recognized.” Ha! As assholes maybe.
I love this part: “If you want to instigate a conflict with the Israeli navy it isn’t hard to do,” Weiner continued. “They were offered alternatives. Instead they chose to sail into the teeth of an internationally recognized blockade.” Tough guy, that Weiner.
health care.
Like the eleven dead on the Event Horizon volcano.
amen. per freegaza tweets, Col Ann Wright telling the Israeli’s to get bent – refusing to sign any statements or accept deportation
and Obama neither has the cajones or the ability to change things.
Yes. I keep waiting for those names and crickets.
I knew the Quitter would get around to rubber-stamping Israel’s actions, while giving Obama an ultimatum.
Israel first!
So fuckin’ true.
Ann is there?! Met her a number of times on the lines.
Go, Ann!!! Give the motherfuckers hell. Never. Give. Up.
Ha. Best comment. Thanks. Yes, that is why we must find reasons to keep loving Obama as hard as we can. How about, because the Repugs are dissing him. Lol.
It takes a special brand of ignorance to write this: “With the entire rest of the world in full throated outrage over the terrorist ambush” from the appropriately named Right Wing Nut House. The whole world is outraged at Israeli actions – all except the rightosphere, Obama and Harper.
Hey, right wing nutjobs cannot complain. Come on. Bambi’s played a blinder for Likud here. Fully corporate and fully stoogie.
Israel could never accept religious freedom and other parts of our Constitution…nahgahhappen.
@hotdog
Pure class! You hit the nail squarely on the head.
Just not quite as early as some (see Corrente).
AIPAC
Bibi Likud
Bloodthirsty
Pariah State
Apartheid State
Stealth Neocons
Dancing Mossad
Media Censorship
USS Liberty Redux
corrupt government
All Israel all the time
Rogue Nuclear Nation
Extortion Blackmail Bribery
Expose the 9/11 cover-up
Expose the 9/11 liars
I just assumed this was Wiener asserting national sovereignty for Palestine. After all, Israel cannot blockade its own ports. By asserting that it’s blockading Gaza, it’s asserting that Gaza is a state actor.
This of course creates a whole boatload of additional problems regarding Israel’s behavior.
In fact, with all the 51st state stuff, on top of all the Corporate Stooging, plutocratic piggery and oligarchal overlording, one should never forget that everything is in the end a reflection of the appalling moral, social, economic and political decline of the United States. This reflex Israel slavish support malaracky is more proof of the fact the US government is no longer democratic, representive or even legitimate. And no matter how big a country thinks it is, the barbarians always reach the gate in the end, and once they’re through, they often have lists of names and know exactly who they want to see pay.
It is approximately on the level of the Middle Ages, all over again. There is about the same level of delusional thinking, idiocy and sickness afoot in US foreign and domestic policy as there was amongst the fraternity of witch hunting, religious bigots who were once in charge. I used to say the US is heading to the third world, but truth is, you’ll be damned lucky if you only stop there.
“Until either Israel gives up the idea of existing, or Palestinian leaders give up the idea of pre-1948 conditions, there will be no peace. There is no sign either is willing to do so.” Unfortunately, your right this is the situation. WAR is hell and many of the posters here forget Israel is @ War with most of the Arab world and parts of the Muslim world as well. In Wars terrible things happen. Ask the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Believe 20% of Israeli citizens are Muslim, and they are represented in the Knesset by Muslims. There are also Christians and the Druze.
From Dissident Voice:
War is dad
Mom is hell
heh – just an old couplet from my college days
and goto100
Thanks. Big ommission on my part. Sorry it takes me so long to reply. I’m a drive-by-er most times – gotta maintain some pretense of dedication to the grindstone.
I am sorry, but Israel was attacked in 1948 right after the UN establishment of Israel. Before any blockades.
Your logic is backwards. The blockades exist because of the attacks. The attacks do not exist because of the blockage.
More basically, the attacks exist because of a string of back and forth actions from both sides that stem from the basic disagreement with the establishment of Israel in the first place.
I can understand that. But, at this point. a compromise will need to be made. For practical purposes, I don’t think the elimination of Israel is a solution.
That means the only solution is some kind of pre-1967 border separate Palestinian state. But, the only way for that to happen is acceptance of Israel as the state that it is.
I don’t see that happening any time soon. Do you?
You’re right of course. But progressives don’t seem to be big on history.
I.e. Israel “is given”/takes land. Palestinians say “Say what?” and try to take it back. US and Britain subsidize the occupation and promote/ignore continued co-opting of land, in conjunction with antagonizing and oppressing the vast majority of people in the region.
Conclusion: Israel has a right to starve people.
Your argument is pretty lame.
You make my point very well.
The Pals view 1948 as a catastrophe. The hard core leaders, calling the shots, want a return to pre-1948 conditions. Nothing else will do.
Because Israel will not agree to that, the fight continues.
Level heads might consider two states side by side the sane solution.
But, is it two states living side by side in peace, or two states living side by side where one is using their state as a launching pad to achieve the real goal which is pre-1948 conditions.
Here is the question for you: would you let some guy move in next door to you who swears he is going to destroy you? And, it does not matter what you say or what you do, he is bent on destroying you. If you cut your hedge down from 6 feet high to 3 feet high to create a more friendly atmosphere, he will then use the opening to shoot his paint filled balloons straight across rather than up over the hedge and better aim now that he can clearly see your house.
“In peace” LOL. “Get out of your house. It’s mine now. If you stand in the way, you’re going to get shot. Ooops, sorry about your mom getting run over by that bulldozer. Not.”
Uh, no. First, as I understand it, no one is starving in Gaza from food not being able to be imported.
Second, what’s your big solution if you’re so smart?
And, would you be willing to guarantee Israel’s safety from any attacks launched from a new Palestinian state? With your own troops?
Yes, you can argue who was right in 1948. Personally, I think Israel and it’s leaders and the UN did not handle the situation very well. But, this is today. So, what do you do?
If you think no one is starving, then you are a victim of media control. Free press, that’s supposed to be another tenet of THIS country’s ideals, but when it comes to Israel and the rest of the neocon war establishment, media is something to be controlled.
My solution? How about I get some representation in the Israeli parliament for all my tax contributions? Let’s start there.
cregan
Israel retreats behind the 1967 borders and every settlement in occupied Palestine is turned over to Palestinians or turned to rubble. Netanyahu and the IDF leadership are tried as war criminals.
The folks at AIPAC are probably paying Sarah Palin the big bucks to wear an Israeli flag lapel on her double-breasted jacket.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/palin%20israeli%20flag%20lapel/McLieberman/Palin_Tea_Party_Israeli_Flag.jpg
And I’m sure they’d give her a big fat bonus if she were to take off her jacket and show us the Star of David, along with a little peek of lingerie, between her cups-runneth-over cleavage.
ttp://mantiqaltayr.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/sarah.jpg
After all, it doesn’t take an Einstein to know that there’s no better person than Sarah Palin to convince the Bible-thumping, gun-totting trailer trash crowd that God will bless them with an enormous bank account if they choose to love Israel over their own country.
I imagine that most people would think that it’s not only very un-American to love Israel over America, but it’s also very unChristian-like to choose money over morality. Evidently, this is not the case for the Sarah Palin crowd. But hey, what do you expect from a bunch of idiots who are totally clueless to the fact that Israel is the new Nazi Germany that somehow managed to escape the financial meltdown. Then again, this may explain their love for fascist regimes as well as their belief in Biblical capitalism.
Can we have Bush-Cheney and posse and Bambi/Rahm and da boyz in court too? Just for the fun of it?
Israel has never indicated that they would seriously consider a two-state solution with a return to pre-1967 borders including East Jerusalem.
It’s simply not honest to say that Israel has been trying to negotiate in good faith and stands ready to make those concessions if only the intractable Palestinians could be brought to the negotiating table. In fact Israel’s behavior seems to be bent on sabotaging any chance of it ever happening.
That won’t solve anything except for a few free thinkers.
I can guarantee you Hamas would never agree with that solution. Nor Hizbollah. Any number of other organizations having practical control of the situation.
So, pull your head out of the clouds and actually come up with something that will solve the problem.
Oh yeah, you forgot the part about the gas ovens.
A blockade! That’ll work!
Massive bombing of multiple Israeli war facilities and sinking at least one major warship or submarine after every individual outrage or each full day of longer ones like Cast Lead? Far too much carrot, far too little stick. What was good enough for Serbia…..
And Walls!
and … prison camps
and … incursions into their territory where we kill lots of innocent people, blow up shit, vandalize and write graffitti on the walls!
Pure GENIUS.
So you tell me to get my head out of the clouds then make the gas oven statement.
Brilliant.
Hasbara’s not getting its money’s worth.
Or Sabra.
That is because Israel is not stupid. They know that “two state” solution really means “establish a launching pad to get back the rest of the land.”
Palestinians consider Israel their land. A two state solution is not going to solve that.
When you have two people considering the same land as theirs, you are going to have a fight until one or the other gives up on that idea. Neither is ready to do so.
Today, you have a situation where the Palestinian side feels even more strongly that they are going to win. Therefore, there really is no end in site as it is certain Israel has even less intention to not exist.
It really doesn’t matter Obama–Bush–Clinton–Nader. The red herring is that the US is any factor in it at all. The US will not convince Israel to not exist and the US will not convince the Palestinians to accept post 1948 conditions.
Whose land is it?
After the humor, you still haven’t come up with any solution that is realistic.
So, can we just mark it down to the fact you are not as smart as you like to portray yourself?
[Mod Note: Argue facts, not personality.]
It doesn’t matter what the truth really is, the Israel propaganda machine and the mainstream media is going to make these individuals look like the villans. Just look at the edited video coming out of Israel. Where are the other videos, like the killing of innocent people. Where is the outrage from the U.S. government where a bunch of armed men takeover a civilian ship in international waters. This is piracy plain and simple.
The troll count is alarming. That they’ve ‘leaked’ over here too is incredible. I have experience from Cif (Guardian). Some little trolls even set up ‘CiF watch’ – truly paranoid delusional. But they are everywhere. Funny thing is, the Wingnuttia Israelia think it works. Which shows they are about as in touch with reality as Caligula in his prime…
Hey, I came up with some swell ideas. What’s the matter? Aren’t they sensible solutions?
That’s the dispute. You’ve nailed it.
And, by the way, I’d like you to move out of your house because I have a Native American here who claims it’s his land. I’ll give you 309 days even.
Why are you any better claiming your house is yours? The only difference is the amount of time that has passed. You didn’t get your land by some wonderful act of kindness. Why don’t you give it back?
Tell him I’ll share gladly.
I’ll send him right over.
I haven’t seen any solutions from you with any realism. Or anyone, other than let’s bomb this or that.
Also, what if he doesn’t want to share? It’s his land, he wants it.
No “this or that” about it. Every Israeli outrage = 1 obliterated Israeli war facility and 1 sunk warship or submarine. They will negotiate very, very quickly and very, very seriously then. Believe me.
We should ask the Russians at this point.
Most of the Arab World would be more than happy with the 2-state/pre-1967 borders solution. The onus would be on them to enforce it. If nothing else, Israel would have the moral high ground for once if the violence continued unabated. There certainly wouldn’t be much remaining sympathy for the Palestinians in the American/European left.
But if Israel was interested in a solution that was in accordance with international law they would stop building illegal settlements and stop storming humanitarian aid vessels in international waters.
Clearly, they are not interested.
Au contraire, my solutions are entirely too real. They’re Israel’s solutions. Nice to see you admit they don’t work.
I’ll talk to him. I’m sure he’s a reasonable guy. We’ll work it out and both be the better for it.
Fair question. Here’s another–Whose land are you living on?
I think they took the lesson to stop relying on the world’s sympathy after WWII. Frankly, I don’t blame them for that.
Seminole land more than likely.
He is not interested in talking. He is only interested in you getting off his land.
I live on a boat.
It is good that you can think of solutions that don’t work. Not many people can do that.
The land where I live was shared by the Native people. They didn’t have deeds. They opened their arms and helped feed the Europeans who sneered at them.
So were they chumps, or were they the wise ones? Would you rather become the monster and thrive on the dead bodies of the peaceful, or use your intellect and knowledge of history to understand that mistrust and condescension were the real evil and try to overcome it?
We’re all going to pay one way or another. Why not see this fact clearly from the start and invest in each other?
That was directed to hotdog, not to you. This is one of the rare occasions where you and I are actually arguing for the same side lol.
Ah, well, had enough of the Zionist trolls and apologists today.
Namaste
How many Israeli neocons DOES it take to make peace? You come here to defend a practice you just said doesn’t work and then you make fun of me for pointing that out. My solution is to stop propping up the state of Israel. What’s so great about that place? I’ll share my place with an Israeli fmily too. They should just pack up and leave that godforsaken ;) territory. Tell your Indian friend we’ll have a sweet little commune. The more the merrier.
We don’t need your sympathy, we’ll just take the dough. LOL
There you go. I’m just trying to make the fairly starightforward point that posession of land changes hands frequently in history, and there is no rational basis for rectifying the resulting feelings of injustice. But we here in America are monumentally guilty of the same thing, so we should be careful about the finger-pointing we engage in. Lest we appear hypocritical. And then, what epithets would we use to describe the right-wingers lol?
How about we point our finger at the bulldozers STILL knocking down houses? I like the name of the next ship BTW. Has a certain kind of PR nightmare irony that I bet Rachel would have appreciated.
“Deeds?” Kind of irrelevant in this context, isn’t it? It appears to be an attempt to avoid the discomfort that my question, and cregan’s, presents for you. Would the original owners still be willing to “share” after we’ve genocided them? Don’t think so. They want you to get out, and give back the land your people stole by force of arms.
So, when are you vacating, and where will you go next?
This is what is meant by the old adage “Don’t judge until you’ve stood in the other guy’s shoes.” You’re in Israel’s shoes right now, and you ain’t moving.
BTW, I share your beautiful vision of sharing all in peace and trust, but then, I’ve always been an idealist, and the world has shown me that it is not populated by idealists. More’s the pity, but reality is reality even if I don’t like it.
I can’t do anything about the massacre of the Native Americans by the European settlers. I can, hopefully, be a part of stopping other countries, including the US and Israel, from doing the same thing in my time and in my name.
The name MV Rachel Corrie prolly gives the Israeli fascists nightmares. I certainly hope so.
If anyone can appreciate a good martyr, those guys would be the ones.
Lots of people take our dough, then act independent. Just look at the bankers, for one glaring example lol.
You could argue for giving the land back to the rightful heirs of those we masscred, couldn’t you? I believe the only reason we don’t do t hat is because it would be inconvenient. That is the attitude of every single conqueror in history. Why should the Israelis be different? Are they special? Are they better than you, or me, for that matter?
I have great reply to that, but in the interest of not being declared anti-semetic, I’m going to refrain from commenting.
If you could go back in the past and have the ability to argue against that theft and genocide, wouldn’t you?
I keep saying we need to return CA, AZ, NM, TX to Mexico. It was their land dammit. Either that or remove the border completely. It’s fucking insane what we’re doing in those states. Can we be more racist. It’s not like the Mexicans are firing rockets or sending suicide bombers to shopping malls in Phoenix.
That’s right!! Everyone reading this, get the fuck out of where you are, and go back to where the fuck you or your parents or your grandparents came from.
There, fixed the whole fucking problem.
Are all the Israel hating progressives who are not apparent anti-semites at this site now. That’s the branding. Bring on some more hate. Who’s going to say, wipe Israel off the map, first. The extremist hate on both sides is the reason there is no solution. So let’s make it worse.
Hmm…that’s some loaded verbiage. I think it’s pretty clear that Zionism has failed to improve the lot of Jewish people – that it has, in fact, made things much worse. If I were Christian I might say something stupid like “hate the sin, etc,” but I just wish people would jettison this whole failed experiment with religion, period.
Gee, it’s truly amazing how silent y’all got when the “land stealing” argument was turned back on you. Seems like all you really needed was a mirror to get your minds right.
We here should be better than what’s been demonstrated on these anti-Israel threads. I condemn all the righties for the same kind of one-sided black-and-white issue framoing. I don’t like having to do the same with my friends.
Amen to that!
Well, feel free to go out and convert the 80% of this nation who profess a faith to atheism. Report back when you can.
The rhetoric is getting too heated. We need a diversion. How about we just blame this whole lot on the bloody British? They certainly have made a mess out of the world community. Have they not? What have they ever done for us?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
Most of our politicians…not just right-wingers…kiss Israel’s ass because they are indebted to them for their “financial support.” Read “bribery.” There are few politicians the Zionists don’t own. If they’re not giving them money, they are blackmailing them (usually over sexual indiscretions). Note that the most extreme right-wingers are dual-citizenship Zionists.
The Zionists have also managed to greatly influence Christian television preachers. They are the ones who turned these people into right-wingers. The more the evangelists praised Israel, the more “donations” they got…from Zionists, who couldn’t care less about Christ. The Zionists know that most Christians have great empathy for Jews, as the first two-thirds of the Christian Bible is The Torah, and many Christians consider themselves Jewish to that extent.
People need to wake up to what Zionists are all about: Deceit and treachery. The Gaza massacre should give you a clue about the rest of it.
I’m not sure that Mr O will run for a second term. Being POTUS is no fun, afterall. Riding around on Air Force 1 gets old. And who wants to be closed up in a bubble all day? Then your pals in the status quo let you down: JP Morgan Chase won’t cut exec salaries; oil company execs fill up the Gulf of Mexico with toxic dispersants and rust colored oil only a month after the Prez opens up offshore drilling; and Top-Kill will work 70% fersure. Now he has to cover up for Nuttyyahoo killing peaceniks on the high seas. (Even Somali pirates don’t actually kill their hostages.)
Dude. I’m waiting for YOUR reply. Would you have said “It’s wrong for us to take these people’s land,” or would you have made excuses for the christian raiders too?
What Americans did to the indigenous peoples here was/is deplorable. The Bureau of Indian Affairs continues to oppress the Native Americans. Talk of returning the land to the natives, while admirable, isn’t in the cards, however. I can’t change something people did in the 17th through 19th centuries here. Nor can I right all the wrongs. I can do what I can to prevent further abuse but I’m not going to run around with a guilt anchor around my neck.
This isn’t 200 years ago. This is now. What we see in Palestine is a repeat of what we did to the Native Americans. We can do something about that. The government isn’t going to do anything but people like Rachel Corrie and the folks of the flotilla are doing what they believe is right.
Hey, I just thought of a GREAT solution. We stop giving multi-billion dollar aid to the Israelis, and instead we give the same money in reparations to the American Indians! I’m cool with that.
time for dinner
g’night
I don’t think the amount of time passed has any bearing on the moraliy of a taking. As an individual, each of you who is morally pure, or wishes to become so, can donate whatever you got from this land to the rightful owners. That could be “in the cards.” Even if it’s inconvenient for you.
Hotdog, I would have opposed any forceful taking and genocide. I personally don’t want anything from anyone that I don’t earn for myself. But history is made up of groups fighting for territory, and usually the winner gets to keep what they took. Your argument is really with the way things are, not with me.
It’s important to recognize the dividing line between your utopian ideals, which I share wholeheartedly, and the sad reality of how groups of people treat each other in the real world. Singling the Israelis out for mimicing what every other powerful nation has done, including us, is unseemly at best (not to use the anti-anything language).