Maybe Rahm will decide to stay. One can only hope.

Aloha, Doc…! ;-)

IOKIYAI

Hi, Kirk. Thanks for pointing out the historical irony in Israel’s actions.

Very good post.

This is Israel. Bill’s boss will say something about the “incident” being “regrettable.” Maybe even a mild criticism.

But as for anything substantive or meaningful? Not a chance.

Meanwhile, Turkey’s already promised to provide a full military escort for future supply ships.

If Israel wanted to continue the blockade, it can forget about it.

Hi folks – thanks for stopping by. And the best possible Memorial Day to you all on this sad weekend of official amnesia.

Aloha to you, CT! And thanks to Jim and newtonusr for your kind reception.

And Margaret – from your lips to Rahm’s travel agent’s ears!

Obama on Zionism and Hamas
May 12 2008, 11:58 AM ET

Obama and I spoke over the weekend about Hamas, about Jimmy Carter, and about the future of Jewish settlements on the West Bank. He seemed eager to talk about his ties to the Jewish community, and about the influence Jews have had on his life. Among other things, he told me that he learned the art of moral anguish from Jews. We spoke as well about my Atlantic cover story on Israel’s future. And, speaking in a kind of code Jews readily understand, Obama also made sure to mention that he was fond of the writer Leon Uris, the author of Exodus.

Here are excerpts from our conversation:

JG: Do you think that justice is still on Israel’s side?

BO: I know that that there are those who would argue that in some ways America has become a safe refuge for the Jewish people, but if you’ve gone through the Holocaust, then that does not offer the same sense of confidence and security as the idea that the Jewish people can take care of themselves no matter what happens. That makes it a fundamentally just idea.

That does not mean that I would agree with every action of the state of Israel, because it’s a government and it has politicians, and as a politician myself I am deeply mindful that we are imperfect creatures and don’t always act with justice uppermost on our minds.

My staff teases me sometimes about anguishing over moral questions. I think I learned that partly from Jewish thought, that your actions have consequences and that they matter and that we have moral imperatives. The point is, if you look at my writings and my history, my commitment to Israel and the Jewish people is more than skin-deep and it’s more than political expediency.”

Obama on Zionism and Hamas – International – The AtlanticMay 12, 2008
http://www.theatlantic.com/…/archive/…/obama…zionism-and-hamas/8318/ – Cached

“And, speaking in a kind of code Jews readily understand, Obama also made sure to mention that he was fond of the writer Leon Uris, the author of Exodus.”

Somewhere Santyana is weeping.

See, I told ya the Turks were stepping up…! ;-)

The MV Rachel Corrie is being escorted all the way to Gaza…! Rather fitting, eh…? *g*

Question: If the Israeli’s attack the Rachel Corrie, as they did the Freedom Flotilla — and I assume they will, and if the Turkish escorts respond in kind, isn’t it possible that a full-blown war could ensue?

Thanks for the history lesson. This is unbelievable, what the hell is there to understand?

Meanwhile from the NYT frontpage:

U.N. Report Says Iran Has Fuel for 2 Nuclear Weapons
By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD 32 minutes ago
The report appears likely to bolster the Obama administration’s case for a fourth round of economic sanctions against Iran.

Of course if you read the story it says that the uranium in question would need further enrichment to be weapons grade. So really nothing much has changed but the NYT doing its neocon best to parrot Washington’s hysteria makes it sound otherwise.

israel can’t simply let the kidnapped people go because they would be able to tell the world what happened. Of course, here in the US we will never hear it on our tv or radio or read it in our newspapers. I think that israel has two other choices: they will keep the captives imprisoned for the rest of their lives or the israelis will shoot them as they are held and say that the prisoners attacked the guards with automatic weapons and the guards had to defend themselves.

There was a question I saw tonight about isreal being the 51st state and one answer was it was the 1st state. Actually, isreal is our master and our politicians will run tomorrow to pass a bill in both houses of congress that completely supports any and all things likudniks do. The PR machine is just to try to give the unenlightened US masses something to hold like a security blanket. The people the israeli government wants to hold in line are the US national government and aipac will just whip out the checkbook for that.

“Don’t fuck with Turks” is an admonishment I’ve read in military histories and heard from soldiers I met in Germany years ago and Israel just “fucked with the Turks.”

That is a distinct possibility…! Do the Israelis have the chutzpah…?

ET cited an Old Timer, from these here parts, on his thread…

Holy Sweet Lord, Turkey has announced they will send another flotilla to Gaza—escorted by the Turkish Navy!

Jim White is upstairs!
Late Night: Thinking About What’s Missing

Two American allies…Both have US MIC facilities. Maybe no more buddies. Turk vs Kurds US buddy up with Kurds. No good outcomes. I am not expertmtactics and strategies or policies. Good luck and better free the prisoners or we may see Hezbollah moving.

*heh* I’ve dealt with ‘em before…! Stout characters indeed…! I did enjoy reading about how several IDF commandos suddenly ‘bounced’ down a few decks, and, even into the drink…! ;-)

Oopsie…!

Will Obama remember NATO only if he wants to keep using Turkish NATO bases and to keep using their air space troops who are hurt must fly over Turkey to get to NATO hospitals in Germany.
Or if Iceland’s Volcano NATO hosptals in Turkey, Italy not sure?

Apparently the Turks have more guts than the US. Obama calling for a thorough investigation by the Israelis – yeah, right. He is either totally incompetent or a coward. I haven’t decided which is worse.

Along these lines, here is another story from the NYT: Deadly Israeli Raid on Aid Flotilla Draws Condemnation

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01flotilla.html?hp

While the title sounds promising, it is interesting to note that only 2 mentions are made that the ships were in international waters, the first without comment, the second repeating an Israeli rationale that an attack in international waters was justified. Similarly, while blockade is mentioned 9 times, its effects on the people of Gaza are not mentioned at all. “Pro-Palestinian” is mentioned 3 times, twice as a qualifier for the Free Gaza Movement. Calling those involved pro-Palestinian is a way to deflect attention away from the fact that this was a humanitarian operation. Indeed the word humanitarian is only used twice, first in an accusation by Israel precisely that these were pro-Palestinians “representing” themselves as humanitarian and in a defense again by Israel that it does let enough “humanitarian” aid into Gaza to avoid an “acute” crisis. I leave it to your imaginations to conjure what an acute crisis would be for the Times.

Hostilities between Israel and Turkey would trigger the NATO mutual defense agreement between members, and NATO would automatically be at war with Israel. Hmmm. The US is a part of NATO so the US would be at war with Israel, its 51st state. If this occurs, it will be interesting, to say the least, to watch our government rationalized its way out of its NATO obligations, in order to side, once again, with Israel.

Kirk !

It will be interesting to see NATO’s reaction tomorrow … the Turks and moderate Muslims around the World will be watching with great interest.

Great post, Kirk, thank you.

Yes, quite the conundrum, eh…? ;-)

I truly feel for the Kurds…! They’re under continuous siege from the Turks and the Iranians, along with the Iraqis…! The Brits royally screwed them when they drew the lines in the sand…! As they also did to the Pashtuns with the Durand Line…! 8-(

Evil is as evil does.

I’m looking forward to seeing how MSNBC deals with this story tomorrow, “the place for politics.” I don’t see how they can ignore it.

He’s a statist and a corporatist coward. As for incompetent, that would greatly depend upon his puppeteers aims.

Got a chuckle out of that, did you? You guys can’t help yourselves. Your nature comes out even when you are trying to be cute.

Hate to step all over this mutual admiration society, but I find the reasoning in Kirk’s piece to be vapid. These blockade=runners were reportedly offered the opportunity to offload their ships for overland shipping to Palestine after being inspected for contraband and weapons. If they had nothing to hide, and if they were essentially offered the opportunity to peaceably run the blockade and get relief supplies to their intended targets, why did they resist. And Kirk, why no mention of the video freely accessible on the internet at this moment which shows Israeli soldiers being attacked, firebombed, struck with metal poles, thrown over the sides of ships? Doesn’t fit the narrative? You just want to scream out sometimes; has nobody here any sense of history, of 2000 years of Jewish martyrdom, of decades of openly declared war against Israel, of the targeting and murdering of Jewish civilians? Open your eyes, take off your blinders, read your history!

Which part of your argument do you support by namecalling against a man who has demonstrated his courage and wisdom time and time again? Disagree with President Obama, belittle his ideas if you will, but leave the name-calling out. Where are the moderators of reason and civility and rationality on this site?

Remember USS LIBERTY also on this MEMORIAL DAY.

In the same context (murderous ISRAELI, corrupt U.S. politicians sold out to AIPAC/jewish money) lets not forget that in the 60′s American ship USS LIBERTY was also repeatedly bombed by Israeli planes killing and injuring a number of american sailors. How did our government respond? Apparently, ordered nearby naval ship not to help USS liberty, by covering up the entire investigation and by not allowing the survivors of USS liberty to testify to this day.
Would Obama wake up and do something differently? We will see.

You know – the pirates who last night committed multiple acts of war against six unarmed NATO flagged vessels in international waters.

1. Pirates do not commit acts of war. They commit crimes.
2. The acts were committed by the forces of a sovereign nation.

Thus the acts were acts of war. Not piracy.

Admittedly, chuckling at murderous pirates falling down stairs and into the sea in the midst of an assault that led to the death of 19 civilians and injury of as many as 60 more *is* a little demented…but what do you mean by “nature”?

I think douglas took ‘nature’ as an ethnic/religious slur, when it was instead, a reference to the Turks.

“IDF releases pictures of weapons found on the Mavi Marmara flotilla ship”

Look at the pictures. http://ht.ly/1SbUd

Kitchen knives, a kitchen sharpeing steel, some hammer handles, and a fucking Potato Peeler.

Weapons my ass.

…and so I have the answer to my question.

This isn’t complicated. Israeli troops forcibly boarded ships in international waters and killed people, lots of them. They forced the ships they seized to land in their own ports and took those survivors aboard into custody.

Please list the incidents of courage.

Please provide link to the times when there was a demonstration of wisdom.

I don’t know about you, but I need some sleep tonight, after last night. I’m not gonna feed this guy – just be pleasant and respectful…

valid points – I saw the video

the crowd tossed one over the side – looked liked they took his weapon – another was on the ground surrounded by a dozen men with iron bars trying to crush his head with each swing – the crowd attacked and was trying to kill. It appears that video has not made it to Arab TV.

The Exodus 1947 comparison, where the Brits stated the Holocaust survivors that were the crowd on the ship where to be sent to prison camps – camps in Germany -while the Brits decided if they would ever get out of prison, and where the crowd did indeed attack the boarding, was a bit of poor logic when one considers this crowd was Hamas – defined as terrorists by the US – plus “activists” that had no pain ahead of them post surrender beyond being sent back to their home country. People want a comparison that they did not earn, I guess.

Beyond a side arm, most of the commandos were armed with paint guns so as to not hurt anyone. But when a crowd attacks the “police” in the US we call it a riot – not “non-violent demonstration”, and we expect the police to defend themselves. If the police later are found to have no reason to be where they were, the courts work it out. These activists did not seem interested in “non-violence”. The video has gone up on CNN international, but there is no way it will catch up to the effect of the early Turkish TV video and Arab reports, especially since it seems to be not being shown in Arab countries.

Well. It was Douglas who used the word “nature”. I think his next post made clear that he meant [anti-Semitic] nature.

I would agree though that he also seemed to be misconstruing the comment to which he was replying. Not surprising, given the quality of argument in other posts he has made on this thread.

Biased or not, if last night was any lesson to those of us who attended, it is that re-litigating back to Isaac and Ishmael is not the most profound solution to this mess.

Please explain how Israeli commandos should be considered as police in this context or any other.
Please explain what right an armed person boarding a vessel at night in international waters has to be welcomed.
Please explain how these “rioters” attacking with iron bars with intent to kill ended up killing no one, while harmless paintball guns ended up killing as many as 19 people and wounding as many as 60 more.

Quite right, and even if it weren’t and adjudication was the path, taking apocryphal religious treatises as historical fact doesn’t wash for me.

There’s a point where bygones have to be bygones and the living need to just get on with living. The natural lifespan of all those involved is a reasonably bright line. Of course statute of limitations is shorter for many crimes.

…this crowd was Hamas…

That is pretty poorly supported. By that calculation, I am also Hamas, because I think defending your ship in international waters is justified.

Further, the claim that Israel has international law on their side is not supported, either.

“The Convention on the Law of the Sea stipulates that a coastal state may consider intervention if a ship is engaged in arms and drug smuggling, the slave trade or terrorist activities. However, the case with the aid boats is totally different. They set sail in accordance with the Customs Act and are known to be carrying humanitarian aid, not weapons or ammunition. According to the Convention on the Law of the Sea, Israel was not entitled to launch a military operation against the boats and activists,” stated Dr. Turgut Tarhanlı from the law department of İstanbul Bilgi University.

Under the convention vessels are granted the right of innocent passage through any territorial waters. “Innocent passage” is defined by the convention as passing through waters in an expeditious and continuous manner, which is not “prejudicial to the peace, good order or the security” of the coastal state.”

I am looking for the citations now. Stand by.

Found it. This clause seems to get ignored when this is discussed:

5.3 Relief

A blockade may not be used to prevent the passage of relief consignments which has to be free according
to the applicable rules of international humanitarian law, in particular those contained in Articles 23, 59 and
61 of the Fourth Geneva Convention or Articles 69 and 70 of Protocol I Additional to the Geneva
Conventions.

Turkey is a NATO country, and searched the ships from top to bottom.

I expect Baruch Obama’s response to this to be exactly like his response to the Gulf oil spill – mouth some platitudes about how “angry” he is, and how he feels “sad” or perhaps how “heartbreaking” it all is.

Then he’ll do precisely nothing, and leave the ones who caused the problem in charge.

He’s much worse than Bush. He is truly the worst, most dangerous, president ever, this ‘Corporate, Israeli, Stooge-in-Chief’.

I can’t even comprehend the level of disappointment I have in the asshole I helped elect-
to think I cried, first at my polling place, when I cast a vote for an African-American President…so proud to be an American…

then this Obama turns out to be totally a fraud—
a war-mongering, corporatist who preys upon the defenseless in our society for the advantage of the corrupt elite….

he’s worse than Bush…
Bush was not a whore…

The Israeli’s have a kanck for sounding sooo reasonable.

One reason for not delivering it to the Israeli’s is cement, something the people of Gaza are in dire need of but Israel has banned. They’ve been living on heaps of rubble since Cast Lead. Or medicine, schoolbooks, water, and wheelchairs for the maimed; are items Israel has banned and part of the aid cargo.
So, please stop playing games.

When the oppressed become the oppressors? The actions of the IDF are a sad reminder of the past, when Nazis killed Jews and whoever else under the guise of self defense of the homeland. IDF, what a bunch of abject fucking losers where their “actions” demonstrate logic more in common with sick “Nazi bastards.” Yes Yesterday was Memorial Day where We remember all those Americans who died killing those sick Nazi bastards who killed millions of people, so Israel could act and murder like Nazis……………

When the oppressed become the oppressors………..

Who does your fact checking? Al Jazerra?

When I hear the reflexive, unthinking responses of those who justify Israel no matter what, I’m struck by the similarity to the “Obamabots”. Only brave American Jews (like Glenn Greenwald) can speak the truth about Israel and not be labeled anti-Semites. Where is the brave black person who dares to criticize Obama? If the rest of us do it, we’re called racists.

Murphy has the gall to compare the Gaza flotilla to the ship Exodus? And I thought journalists were supposed to get the facts before spouting off? 9 people out of 700 died, a little more than 1% of the total. Not quite a massacre, was it? As for murder, back to those pesky facts. Murphy forgot to mention chants of “death to the Jews” before those humanitarians set sail. Or that the IDF boarded only one boat (out of 6) while carrying paint-ball guns. That’s why the mob was able to throw a soldier 30 feet to a deck below. I see by the tons of comments that the average poster is an ignorant anti-Semite–a perfect match for the author.

Hasbarrah trolls out in force! They get absolutely everywhere these days.

Israel has every right to defend themselves. The fact that Hamas runs Gaza is important to know. Egypt has also a blockade, as Hamas is a TERROR group.