Keep on sending peaceful humanitarian flotillas.

This Israeli response is criminal.

Keep on sending peaceful humanitarian flotillas. – klynn

Seconded.

Looking at the bigger picture, this is a sure way to scuttle the current I/P negotiations … now who would want to do that ?

And the statement of disgust from the WH is where? Until America stands up to these Israeli murdering war mongers they will continue their policy of killing, subjugation, torture, apartheid and illegal occupation.

So, will Obama cancel the “friendly” meeting with Netanyahu this Tuesday planned by Rahm who is currently in Israel?

A question that answers itself.
Netanyahu has looked into Obama’s soul and seen a doormat.

From twitter: “Update: Israeli prime minister’s office says he’s canceling White House visit to deal with Gaza crisis – AP”

Israeli Embassy contact info.

I think that you should realise that fewer and fewer Arabs distinguish between Americans and Israelis – and objectively they’re right.

There will be a reckoning.

mfi

That’s definitely not good news. I don’t think American citizens would like that. Our government is supposed to represent us. But, we don’t approve of their policies.

A complete outrage. No mention on morning news in US.

Thank you for keeping us informed, Siun.

Bibi’s cancelled his Tuesday confab with Obama and is returning to Israel:

http://www.startribune.com/world/95252029.html

This was the ninth one so far.

MSNBC.com is spreading the Israeli lies. I found it very unlikely that one of the activists tried or was able to “grab a machine gun from a commando”. You’d think with all of their experience in lying and playing the victim, the Israelis would be able to at least come up with believable bullsh*t.

Bibi’s cancelled his Tuesday confab with Obama and is returning to Israel

Let’s hope he takes Rahm with him…

I think the President’s Chief of Staff shouldn’t be someone who has served in Israeli Armed Forces.

It will be interesting to see how the Israelis handle their unlawful combatant detainees. And to see what kind of trials they give to the aggressor-activists who attacked them with clubs, knives and small arms (that had been emptied at the heroic IDF defenders).

If you run into a burning bush on your walk this morning, would you request a re-visit to the Israelis? They need another set of commandments and a clarification on the old ones.

I’m sure that was planned in advance to give Obama political cover. We will see if Obama uses his UN veto thats the important thing.
Turkey is the key they can leave NATO and stop letting our planes full of wounded from Iraq and maybe Afghanistan ( not sure on that one) fly over their country to Germany.
Can we keep fighting our wars without Turkey? Will the death rate go up without them? Probably

Sadly, the assault on the USS Liberty over forty years ago showed that the Israelis can even get away with attacking the United States Navy with only a slap on the wrist.

Well there’s a problem there isn’t there which is that the American electorate/public have been markedly reluctant to express that disapproval. Sorry demi – won’t wash, if Americans want to be disassociated from the thuggish apartheid state then they’re going to have to say so loudly and clearly and then to do something about what they have just loudly and clearly said.

Oh, you mean the empty Israeli guns “found” on the dead unarmed civilians? Yeah, that’s pretty stinky.

Pffft! Don’t hold your breath demi. They don’t obey the ones they have now! I can think of three or four broken commandments just in this story without scratching my head or putting on my thinking cap.

Agreed the peace activist are brave but they are not Israeli Commandos. Next MSNBC would have us believe Fire Pups can disarm Navy Seals.

Was reported on NPR…don’t know about others.

The CCN(Turk) interviewer took a confrontational, somewhat accusatory approach with Audrey Romse(?) of Free Gaza about the armed-to-the-teeth
activists aboard Marmara.

Guess what last night we heard Rahm was in Israel fir his son’s Bar Mitzvah coincidence?

Israel issues travel warning to Turkey

No, actually I mean this:

Israeli officials said the soldiers were attacked with knives, clubs and iron bars as they boarded the six vessels. The Israeli military said the violence turned deadly after one of the activists grabbed a weapon from one of the commandos. The weapon discharged, though it wasn’t clear whether the activist fired it or if it went off accidentally.

To msnbc’s credit, they are reporting in the same story that reporters onboard said that the Israelis were firing at them as they approached the flotilla.

PS: Please do not feed the trolls. There’s been a nasty outbreak of rotfang and scaledroop amongst the inhabitants of FDL’s trollery and the vet needs them fasting for 168hours before she can start treating them ……

A front page Diary on that would be good after all the MSM will never mention that nor a Texas schoolbook.

Hell, Israel could drop a nuke on us and the U.S. Congress would piss itself hurrying to pass a new resolution of super-support.

It seems perfect for Memorial Day.

Of course how grateful we are you tried to stop our oil leak no mention to bad you missed and killed Civilians.

The Obama administration is “voicing concern”. Woohoo! More decisive action from the fierce advocate,

Empty Israeli Guns the guns were Israeli?

Actually, while I was in the Navy, the attack on the Liberty was used for training purposes though they would not say or confirm who it was that attacked them.

I agree. Sorry, didn’t mean to make it sound like an excuse.

I can’t see how this could be an accident. It has to be a deliberate provocation. Coming so close to Netanyahu’s visit tomorrow, it sends a strong message. The Israelis don’t do stuff like this without calculating their American support.

I can see it three ways, none good. First, the Israelis have been given reason to expect that Obama will react passively and effectively accept or support the action. Second, that they’re trying to put Obama on the spot and that they’re counting on American warmongers and Israel’s supporters in the US to put intense pressure on Obama. Third, someone fairly high up in the Israeli military is trying to cause trouble for Metanyahu.

I didn’t really think you’d run into that bush and I agree that they’re breaking rules, left and right.
Maybe I should have included a snark tag.
(I’m feeling like my comments are being a little misunderstood this am.) wah.

I don’t expect us to do anything I expect the NATO countries to do something. Turkey can hurt our war effort, Greece can hurt our banks and or threaten Europe’s banks to get Europe to show a spine.
After all the Greek Government is unpopular enough with having to cut spending. An attack on their ship, possible Greek dead and no strong Greek response .
Chances are the Greek Government would fail and the new Government would not pay European banks a dime.
Israel could then be remembered for breaking the EU and Turkey leaving NATO.
Hilary’s State Dept run would be the worse of any non War Crimes State Dept.
Kissenger, Condi and all the creeps who broke every American Indian treaty.

No problem demi – we’ve both been denizens of the lake long enough to know each others’ opinions on a whole heap of issues :-) But sadly you’re well and truly in the minority.

I’ve never seen anything like the cold calculating rage from my Turkish friends and colleagues that started to hit my mail box this morning (and is still doing so). The repercussions of this are going to be big. Not least to the Kurds who’ve been in bed with the Israelis for years. I can see a lot of Turks reckoning that this is a two birds with one stone situation.

Until I came to the Lake I had never heard of it and I had an education and thought I was Left.

This was exactly what Hamas and the other Islamic jihadists who organized this armada of Jew-haters wanted to happen. There was nothing Israel could do that would not incur the wrath of the Muslim world and craven, immoral Europe.
Maybe the Arabs will get really stupid, start a war and then cry “disproportionate force” when the Jews defend themselves.
Once again most Americans of both parties, including liberals, moderates and conservatives, will stand by Israel. Only the circus freaks on the far left and far right will support the howling, racist mobs screaming for Jewish blood in the rest of the world.

Oh no demi! I was just observing, not finding fault! Sorry I wasn’t more clear. :-)

Obama and his OIL Masters want like this action by Israel

This is going to hurt their pursuit of trying to make IRAN the evil empire in the mideast.

Rahm, Hillary, and Bill the ISRAEL lobby has a lot work to do here, I think YOU TUBE is going to win, Israel just attack an aid ship in INTERNATIONAL waters.

Iran leaders must be shaking their heads, Israel has leaders like Bush and Palin.

Yeah, they do everything they can to cover that one up, don’t they? I’d never heard about it either and the whole company was asking who it was who attacked the ship after the film was over. It wasn’t until months later that I confirmed the truth. Those were the days before the internet though.

Happy anniversary, USS Liberty vets, I’ll bet this all looks too familiar to the survivors of that infamous attack, covered up by our own government.

From USS Liberty Veterans Association Web site:

ON JUNE 8, 1967, while patrolling in international waters in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel. Of a crew of 294 officers and men (including three civilians), the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy three (173) wounded in action. The ship itself, a Forty Million ($40,000,000) Dollar state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform, was so badly damaged that it never sailed on an operational mission again and was sold in 1970 for $101,666.66 as scrap.

At 1400 hours, while approximately about 17 nautical miles off the northern Sinai coast and about 25 nautical miles northwest of El Arish, USS Liberty’s crew observed three surface radar contacts closing with their position at high speed. A few moments later, the bridge radar crew observed high speed aircraft passing over the surface returns on the same heading. Within a few short moments, and without any warning, Israeli fighter aircraft launched a rocket attack on USS Liberty. The aircraft made repeated firing passes, attacking USS Liberty with rockets and their internal cannons. After the first flight of fighter aircraft had exhausted their ordnance, subsequent flights of Israeli fighter aircraft continued to prosecute the attack with rockets, cannon fire, and napalm.

During the air attack, USS Liberty’s crew had difficulty contacting Sixth Fleet to request assistance due to intense communications jamming The initial targets on the ship were the command bridge, communications antennas, and the four .50 caliber machine guns, placed on the ship to repel boarders. After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack. The torpedo boats launched a total of five torpedoes, one of which struck the side of USS Liberty, opposite the ship’s research spaces. Twenty-five Americans, in addition to the nine who had been killed in the earlier air attacks, were killed as a result of this explosion.

The Department of Defense Law of War Program (DoD Directive 2311.01E – formerly DoD Directive 5100.77) provides that “All reportable incidents committed by or against U.S. personnel, enemy persons, or any other individual are reported promptly, investigated thoroughly, and, where appropriate, remedied by corrective action.”

On June 8, 2005 the USS Liberty Veterans Association submitted A Report of War Crimes Committed Against the USS Liberty, June 8, 1967 to the Department of Defense in accordance with the DoD Law of War Program.

The War Crimes Report we filed lists allegations of acts committed during the attack on our ship, including:

* The jamming of our radios on both US Navy tactical and international maritime distress frequencies;
* The use of unmarked aircraft by the forces attacking the USS Liberty;
* The deliberate machine gunning of life rafts we had dropped over the side in anticipation of abandoning ship; and
* The recall of two flights of rescue aircraft that had been launched from Sixth Fleet aircraft carriers. After those flights were recalled, Sixth Fleet personnel listened to our calls for help as the attack continued knowing they were forbidden to come to our assistance.

The Department of Defense has unilaterally waived its obligation under the Department of Defense Law of War Program by refusing to investigate the allegations contained in the War Crimes Report. The Department of Defense has also refused to provide a speaker to address the crew of the USS Liberty and explain their actions with regard to the War Crimes Report.

Will this US response be any different? I seriously hope so, and doubt it, at the same time. The least we can do is demand better from our public servants.

Israel has proved itself to be a rogue nation, armed with nukes it has tried to sell, making it, not Iran, the greatest threat to peace in the world. And we have proved to be Israel’s greatest sponsor, patron, protector, partner in crimes against humanity, even when those crimes have been against our own Navy.

Hey Pentagon, hey NSC, hey all you know-it-all secret-keepers: It’s your responsibility to protect the Constitution, not criminals. Tell the truth, tell it loud, tell it often. Just give us the truth.

Where was the US Navy? Will we see a replay of the cover-up that denied justice to the Liberty? Were they monitoring, but not warning, the flotilla? Was a blind radar eye turned to this act of piracy? What about our spy satellites, what did our eyes-in-the-sky see? What did we know, and when did we know it?

My heart goes out to the victims, their families and friends. I salute, with deep reverence, the courage of the flotilla.

Why do this is their an Israeli election coming up and the Party in Power needs to appear tough? Or is this a sideshow to distract from Israel not signing the Proposed Nuclear Proliferation Treaty.

Iranian ambassador Ali Asghar Soltanieh, however, told reporters that Iran could not accept the text unless the date of 2025 was set “to eliminate all nuclear weapons,” something which is not in the disarmament action plan.
Perhaps the most contentious issue is the creation of a nuclear-weapon-free zone in the Middle East, first proposed at the 1995 conference.
The United States and Egypt have spearheaded talks between nuclear powers and non-aligneds to find a way forward on this matter.
Israel — widely understood to be the region’s lone if undeclared nuclear power — opposes a zone until there is peace in the Middle East but might agree to a non-binding conference, diplomats said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jeFMvDcyZQib43L7aTvOjoNU60iQ

Obama and Hillary have been trying to make IRAN the evil empire.

The last thing they need is for ISRAEL to attack an AID ship in Internation waters, thus letting IRAN off the hook.

Israel messed up big time! as usual

they did not get the memo from BIG OIL and their puppet OBAMA, be quiet and stay out of the way we want to attack IRAN.

Ditto and a big amen to that.
Piracy is piracy and should be dealt with as such. It’s a real pisser.

Yes the Arabs wanted to help starving people how fiendish of them to offer them food!/s
Today’s Nazi’s including Pat Buchanan I’m sure feel the same way about Schindler.

Write to your local papers — the Israeli meme is that the nasty flotilla people are evil for trying to defend themselves from Israeli helicopters attacking them in international waters.

Meanwhile, here’s CNN International:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs3wxPiv5Y8&feature=player_embedded

Ah, the horrible sin of defending themselves from an attack occurring in international waters! As if iron bars were a defense against helicopter gunships.

Good point how many American banks have oil sitting in super tankers over a year now waiting for higher oil prices? They thought their ideas Geithner is one of theirs would fix our economy and raise oil demand and price.
Possible war in the Middle East is plan B.
If we had Real Numbers from the banks on their financial situation I could trust and totals of how much oil is held in oil tankers around the world I would do another diary.

Buddy, I think you’re fucking insane. Really.

Today’s Nazi’s including Pat Buchanan I’m sure feel the same way about Schindler.

People like Buchanan care about the Israelis only as far as they can be exploited to advance their agenda. The Israelis have the right to live. So do the Palestinians. Zionists, on the other hand are no different than apartheid South Africa, the KKK, the Taliban, or any number of bloodthirsty, xenophobic terrorists.

Thank you for demonstrating for us just how inverted and twisted supporters of Israel have become that they will instantly and vociferously defend any atrocity and any crime Israelis commit. You have learned exactly nothing from the Holocaust. You stand with the perpetators of the murders of innocents, not their victims. How sick you are.

Sadly, the assault on the USS Liberty over forty years ago showed that the Israelis can even get away with attacking the United States Navy with only a slap on the wrist.

That’s true, but it extends to anyone the US government chooses to portray as a friend at the time. Recall the fatal attack on the USS Stark by Saddam Hussein’s military in the 1980s, back when “we” supported Saddam in the Iran/Iraq war. No retaliation, and the event has fallen so far down the memory hole that people who remember it at all sometimes mistakenly think it was Iran that fired the Exocet missiles.

War Crimes are like murder no Statue of Limitations? If Israel gets us into another stupid Middle East war the blogs should start harping on this like Cato talking about Carthage.

You know it would be interesting to try to find out what will happen to the stocks of diesel and the stocks of aviation fuel held by America on Jordanian soil on behalf of the nearest and dearest and closest ally. I think I’ll nose around a bit on that one.

Jeepers, the powers that be are playing an outrageous game, with all their brinksmanship and blustering and lies. Now Turkey and Nato have been attacked in international waters, not the dithering, incoherent US. Things could easily spiral out of control. Is that in anybody’s interest….?

All America’s fundies think the Messiah comes back after Israel gets their country back and gets into a war.
The thing is every War Israel gets into is assumed to be the the War and of course Israel is justified in whatever they do.
The thing is they are only Justified in the last war they fight not every war they fight.
But Logic was never their strong suit.

There is a difference between Zionism and Judaism. You can criticize Zionists, who are racists and claim Jewish supremacy, and still love the Jewish people, the Jewish religion, and the Jewish tradition. It’s like hating the KKK but loving white people, or hating Nazis but loving the German people, or hating a black supremacist group, and loving black people, or hating Islamic extremists, and loving Muslim people.

And Israel was the clear aggressor here. This was not an act of self-defense. So don’t say “but Israel is the victim.” Israel is not the victim, not in 2010. It is the oppressor, the criminal, the murderer.

Why do you think America will need it soon?

Recall the fatal attack on the USS Stark by Saddam Hussein’s navy in the 1980s,

I was in the Navy at the time and while it was clear that Hussein was responsible, the narrative that was encouraged was that somehow Iran nefariously fooled Hussein into believing that the Stark was an Iranian ship, despite the fact that Iran’s “Navy” consisted of a few still floating US relics from WW II. Anybody who called bullsh*t, (myself for example), was ridiculed.

Good point the GOP and Rush assume that because we attack Racists we hate all Whites.

Truth. Despising Jewish people is anti Semitic, despising Israeli policy is not. Equating the two as one in the same is the same kind of thinking that led to justifying Japanese-American interment and the theft of their lands and properties along the west coast in the 1940s.

Here is something we can do about it politically,

Harman Uses Bush/Cheney Fear Tactics on Winograd & Voters
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/05/30/harman-uses-bushcheney-fear-tactics-on-winograd-voters/

Are you being serious? sarcastic?? or are you really asking ??? I’ll assume the third :-)

The level of fuel stocks (and other TOE) but especially fuel being held and or being built up is a really good indicator of what the military powers that matter (in this case Israel and the US) think about the seriousness of the situation.

One minor point: Diesel fuel and jet aviation fuel is pretty much the same thing. JP4 and diesel come from the same vat.

Yup But they’re counted separately (different clients)

Yup. The IDF claims that, somehow, one of the flotilla members disarmed a trained IDF commando and started emptying his gun back at the attackers to keep them from attacking the ship in international waters.

Yeah, sounds like bullshit to me, too.

The whole idea that a ship shouldn’t defend itself against pirates attacking it in international waters is pretty bullshit, too.

Word! Well said, mfi.

In health care, one can choose not to be resuscitated in an emergency: Do Not Resuscitate, DNR. Trolls are DNR, too: Do Not Reply. Some are just bufoons, to be sure. But “information ops/psy ops/strategic domestic disinformation campaigns” do happen. I’m a Navy brat, from a military family going back to the Civil War, and I didn’t even know about the attack on the Liberty until just a few years ago.

Don’t let the bastards pull your emotional strings.

Reply
ichbineinberliner May 31st, 2010 at 3:22 am
376
In response to ThingsComeUndone @ 29 (show text)
Germany has guilt.

But Germany also had two sitting members of parliament (Ms Höger MdB (Linke) and Ms Groth MdB (Linke)) on board of these ships…

There has to be some kind of reaction from the German administration.

From Siun’s last thread Germany has 2 Parliament members on board. There are lots of important people on board I assume some are dead, some in hospital and the rest in Israeli jail.
The international response could be interesting war not likely a boycott very likely, a travel ban and Israel losses their planes over flight rights above Europe possible.
An economic blockade just close the Strait of Gibraltar not likely but if Israel does something else stupid it sure beats a war.
Right now I’m betting on more stupid.

Assume the third.

What if it was always meant to be stolen by the host country a stealth bribe to get past our congress and never mentioned again? Just a possibility mind you I am not an expert.
Your possibility especially if the fuel stocks got higher in the last year suggests war.

I love Jews but i fucking hate Israel. Btw so does every Jewish person i know. The collective punishment of Gaza was/is the last straw for a lot of us.

Call me pro-Semite (ALL Semites), anti-fascist/militarist insanity.

Somebody who writes about this is Philip Giraldi try doing some searching on antiwar.com or on Colonel Lang’s site.

And his fellow commandos let this happen? Or maybe the commandos went off alone by themselves searching the ship and one of them got ambushed.
Oppressors like Israel and Bush never seem able to tell good lies. The book King of the Mountain notices changes in the Alpha Ape and similar changes in human Leaders.
I’m halfway through the book do all human leaders tell bad lies? Or is it just the Stupid Ones?

That’s been scrubbed from the latest version — the censorship is already happening. I can’t find a cached version of the original.

Yeah. The world’s best and most thoroughly trained commandos do not “lose” guns to people armed at best with iron bars (if that).

Yes it does suggest war but then I’m one of those people who is of the opinion that Israel and the US both want a war in the fairly near future.

Also via Pat Lang’s site have found this from Giraldi:

The Strategic Ally Myth by Philip Giraldi — Antiwar.com:

Well, Mort Zuckerman is certainly entitled to his own opinion and I suppose he can use the magazine he owns to spread Israeli hasbara, but the notion that Israel is some kind of strategic asset for the United States is nonsense, a complete fabrication. Most recently, Chas Freeman has pointed out that Israel is useless for the projection of American power. The US has numerous bases in Arab countries but is not allowed to use any military base in Israel. Washington’s own carrier groups and other forces in place all over the Middle East, including the Red Sea, have capabilities that far exceed those of the Israel Defense Forces. Israel has never been a strategic asset or any asset at all, always a liability. Even the stockpiles of US equipment in Israel are a typical bit of bonus support for Tel Aviv from Congress, placed there for the Israelis to use “in emergencies” while making it appear that they are for American forces. The supplies are, in fact, regularly looted by the Israelis, leaving largely unusable or picked over equipment for US forces if it should ever be needed.

Agreed American and English policy was to keep the Middle East Divided so they could never threaten us with an oil boycott.
Thats another possibility we should worry about now.
Israel however is the one thing uniting all Arab and Muslim countries right now Israel is doing the exact opposite of our foreign policy goals.

Threats of war real or not will raise oil prices higher oil prices the U.S economy tanks every Recession since WW2 in America in whole or in part is related to higher oil prices.

From Bloomberg part three
http://www.bloomberg.com/index_eu.html

Yep. Out of all of the Jewish people I know, only one is very observant and only one is a Zionist, and they aren’t the same person.

The point I was making is that it is ridiculously easy to order innocuous diesel fuel but instead fuel warplanes with it.

Excellent point, TCU. It’s the mythology! Beliefs trump facts every time. It’s all about getting their own self-centered soul into heaven, thus necessitating standing in the proper relationship to the proper dogma preached by the proper clerics of the proper establishment of the proper god of war. No thinking required, just a fanatical belief in life-as-holy-war, in which we are pre-ordained to triumph.

War in the Middle East, in their twisted worldview, isn’t to be prevented, but provoked, out of self-interested desire to salvage their own souls, while sending the vast majority of humanity to hell forever and ever amen.

Margaret @54: Too true. Christian Zionists may have more blood on their hands than jihadists. But, as with all fanatics and zealots, they see their crimes as virtues, ‘cuz they’re working on orders from The Biggest Man Up the Highest Stairs, doncha know. It’s the Nuremberg defense, writ large.

No problem with messy commandments then. A burning bush issued them, their fantasy sky daddy can rescind them.

I found it very unlikely that one of the activists tried or was able to “grab a machine gun from a commando”. You’d think with all of their experience in lying and playing the victim, the Israelis would be able to at least come up with believable bullsh*t.

Well, they figured the Americans got away with it when they accused Aafia Siddiqui of grabbing a rifle that an American soldier had put on the floor and tried to kill him and other soldiers. Aafia Siddiqui, the “Lady Al Qaeda.”

Yes but I think we’re talking at cross purposes what i’m getting at is that there are stocks of fuel one of which is explicitly labelled

“for flying warcraft”

and the other of which is is equally explicitly labelled “for armour and other stuff that doesn’t leave the ground”

Going on memory (so don’t hold me to it) but IIRC they’re paid for out of two separate funds.

It’s the level (or rather the fluctuations in the level) that are useful to know.

Excellent point, TCU. It’s the mythology! Beliefs trump facts every time. It’s all about getting their own self-centered soul into heaven, thus necessitating standing in the proper relationship to the proper dogma preached by the proper clerics of the proper establishment of the proper god of war. No thinking required, just a fanatical belief in life-as-holy-war, in which we are pre-ordained to triumph.

I wonder if the Oracle of Delphi or the Sibline books were used the same way? Are all bibles, prophecy, Greenspan Speak etc ambiguous so they can be said to support anything we wish to hear?
Is the Genius of the Torah/ Bible / Koran as Myth is that only the stories that turned out right or right with editing made it into the book?
Our stock prophets, Cramer, Ben Stein never mention their win lose record of stock predictions.

smgxxx, check out the reader-response #94 to the Haaretz lead story.
Or did you write it?

Siun, thank you so much for bringing this story to us while it is happening. Once again, the best place for information is at the lake. Bravo.

Rahm is already there for a Bar Mitzah. Though Bibi the Butcher is cancelling his visit with (the secret Muslim) Obama, he is meeting with our Asshole in Charge, Stephen Harper, in Ottawa, as I type. Stephen would have been broken hearted if Bibi cancelled their meeting as he loves Bibi almost as much as he worships Dick Cheney.

However Harper and NetanYahoo have cancelled theirs press conference scheduled for after their meeting, most likely because there just may be a non-CanWest journalist, not in thrall to the Zionistas, who might ask an embarrassing question about last night’s war crimes.

As to:

“Jeepers, the powers that be are playing an outrageous game, with all their brinksmanship and blustering and lies. Now Turkey and Nato have been attacked in international waters, not the dithering, incoherent US. Things could easily spiral out of control. Is that in anybody’s interest….?
reply”

Yeah, the same old Oil Barons, Arms Dealers and other greedbags who always get ever more grossly rich when other people’s children die for no sane reason!

Great questions, I’ll have to check on those. First, I’ll address the issue of misinterpreting mythology. Myths are mystified somewhat on purpose. Many an author takes delight in making the dedicated reader work for the revelations. The best truths, after all, are those which can only be indicated, not reduced to these crude terms.

From my memory, the OoD was often sought out by political leaders, who could then take the puzzling pronouncements anyway they wanted, then blame the clerics if things turned out badly. It would depend on the question asked, and how high the priestess got on the sacred fumes (not kidding).

It’s much like reading tea leaves or casting sticks in the I Ching. A pattern arises, which can tease out of your psyche a very good answer that you didn’t know you knew. Or you can project egocentric fantasies, superimpose the thing you’re looking for, and mistake it for the divine truth.

Mythic metaphors speak a very strange language, to unfamiliar ears. Christians metaphorically eat the flesh and drink the blood of their savior. Does that make them cannibals? Of course not. Much of the problem arises from mistaking poetry for prose.

The Bible, Koran, Torah (different names, with a shared subject and even some shared texts): all are true, but not in the same way a news report may be true, right?

Misinterpreting mythic metaphors as concrete facts is the worst problem of all.

From my diary of May 14, 2010:

Joseph Campbel, Thou Art That: transforming religious metaphors, pp.25-26. San Anselmo, CA: New World Library. Copyright © Joseph Campbell Foundation.

Thou Art That is a compilation of previously uncollected essays and lectures by Joseph Campbell that focus on the Judeo-Christian tradition. Here Campbell explores common religious symbols, reexamining and reinterpreting them in the context of his remarkable knowledge of world mythology. According to Campbell, society often confuses the literal and metaphorical interpretations of religious stories and symbols.

In this collection, he eloquently reestablishes these metaphors as a means to enhance spiritual understanding and mystical revelation. With characteristic verve, he ranges from rich storytelling to insightful comparative scholarship. Included is editor Eugene Kennedy’s classic interview with Campbell in The New York Times Magazine, which brought the scholar to the public’s attention for the first time.

A basic methodological principle, to be regarded when mythology is being interpreted in psychological terms, tells us that what is referred to in myth as “other world” is to be understood psychologically as inner world (“the Kingdom of Heaven is within you”), and that what is spoken of as “future” is now. At an Anglican wedding ceremony, I once overheard the minister instruct the couple before him to live their life in such a way as to merit in the next, eternal life. Well yes, I thought, but that is not quite correctly phrased. He really should have said, “Live your life, your marriage, in such a way that in it you may experience eternal life.” Eternity is neither future, nor past, but now. It is not of the nature of time at all, in fact, but a dimension, so to say, of now and forever, a dimension of the consciousness of being that is to be found and experienced within, upon which, when found, one may ride through time and through the whole length of one’s days. What leads to the knowledge of this transpersonal, trans-historical dimension of one’s being and life experience are the mythological archetypes, those eternal symbols that are known to all mythologies and have been forever the support and models of human life.

One of the most interesting things about the Bible is that every one of the major Old Testament mythological themes has been found by our modern scholars in the earlier Sumero-Babylonian complex: The serpent-god, the tree in the garden of immortal life, the fashioning of mankind from clay, the deluge, and many others. I think, however, of what has happened as a result: Myths that originally had pointed to the goddess as the ultimate source are now pointing to a god!

This change is highly significant, and it is one of the most baffling things about our tradition. Symbols speak directly to the psyche. One spontaneously knows what they are saying, even if the person presenting and interpreting them may be speaking a different language. He is saying, “This story is telling us of the Father,” while one’s heart is saying, “No, it is of the Mother.” All of our religious symbols are thus speaking to us in double-talk. Since, as even Saint Thomas states in his Summa contra gentiles (book I, chapter 5), “Then alone do we know God truly, when we believe that He is far above all that man can possibly think of God,” it can surely not be proper to think of that which surpasses all human thought either as a male or a female. In our tradition, the problem is further compounded by the image of a male God minus a wife, so that we cannot even think of

divinity as transcending and subsuming sexual opposites. This image of the divine is all very psychologically and socially important. As we now well know, this emphatically lopsided representation of the mystery of God was primarily contrived to support the claim of the superiority of the patriarchal conquerors over their matriarchal victims.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Myth-jacking nations has a long and storied past. It’s about time we caught on to the game.

Why are we effed in the head? Why do we make war on everything under the sun–and even under the sea? It’s the mythology!

God is imaged as a man, the biggest baddest man in the universe. To be god-like is to be man-like, and vice versa. Yes, astute readers: I’m saying, it’s a dick thing. Dicking with Mother Nature is the very epitome of the good life, to these believers in half a cosmos.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Campbell continues:

How do we achieve, however, the required relationship to Jesus? Through baptism and thereby membership in his Church—that is to say within and by means of a sanctified social context stressing certain exclusive claims. These claims depend for validation upon the historicity of certain specific miracles. The Jewish tradition depends on the notion of special revelation to a singular “chosen” people, in a certain place, and a these circumstances in historical time. The documentation, however, is questionable. Likewise, the Christian tradition is based on the idea of single incarnation, the authentication of which is in the evidence of certain miracles, followed by the founding of a Church and the continuity of this Church through time: every bit of this dogma is also historical.

That is why our symbols have all been so consistently and persistently interpreted as referring not primarily to our inner selves but to supposed outer historical events. This emphasis may be good for the institution of the Church or the prosperity of the synagogue, but may not at all contribute to the spiritual health of the unconvinced individual.

Our mythologies have been historicized into propaganda. We’re no longer husbanding Mother Earth, we’re pimping her for all She’s worth.

We have to answer the most fundamental of questions. What are we: Beings, or machines? Self-directed, or other-directed? Growing, or being constructed? Organic, or mechanical? Self-sovereign, or just following orders?

I can tell you what we most certainly are not. We’re not the toy soldiers of someone else’s god. We’re not slaves on their plantations. We’re not mere automata, either, not just voting machines on two legs, oh so easily jacked. What are we?

Kin, baby, kin!

The Israeli military boards a charity ship in international waters and goes on a murderous rampage. Bill Clinton gives a speech in Arkansas where he visciously attacks labor unions. John Kerry wanders about glassy-eyed with a copy of an energy bill in his hand that would allow and encourage MORE offshore drilling while the Gulf fills up with oil. A Democratic Congress cuts health care subsidies for the unemployed, Medicaid for the poor, and refuses to allow another tier of benefits for the unemployed.

My first instinct is to feel that something has changed, that the good-guys are now the bad-guys.

My reasoned instinct is that for the first time, I’m seeing clearly.

When the oppressed become the oppressors? WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don’t worry. America will stand by Israel.

Very sad but not the first time that this has happened. In 1967 the Israelis attacked an American Naval vessel,the USS Liberty killing 34 and injuring almost 100 others. No blockade or Gaza back then just lowlife sneak attack by cowardly Israelis. Israelis are always very forceful (brave) when dealing with unarmed women and children. Attack on USS Liberty is and was real. Have you ever heard of it?

Rahm is IN Israel for his son’s Bar Mitzvah.

Siun, thanks for coninuing to shine light on these dark crimes.

What’s Obama’s response?

Probably the usual “Israel has the right to defend itself”.

What weapons did these people have? Forks and spoons?

Israel seemingly cannot see the parallels between the situation now and in 1948 when they were in the same position as the Palestinians are now.
In 1948 they needed a country so they bought it by paying off the big nations who did not like the Palestinians anyway. We need to set things straight and take away their subsidies and give them to the Palestinians. We will win the Arab world if we do that.

The fault for the loss of lives lies at the feet of those who provoked this incident, not with the Israeli soldiers who defended themselves. BBC, hardly a media arm of Israeli, is showing videos of “peace activists” throwing petrol bombs on the Israel soldiers. What did they think the result would be?
Of course the U.S. will veto any Arab-led resolution condemning Israel. It’s the right thing to do. But do not expect the fanatics who are looking for a reason to condemn the Jews to accept this.

You know it is interesting the blurb on the NYT frontpage story on this story originally called this a raid on a flotilla of “pro-Palestinian activists”. This has now been changed to ships carrying supplies to Gaza.

Time to ask what the fuck country these people work for, what, the United States of Israel? – Obama, Emanuel, Clintom, Schumer, Lieberman and the list goes on – Abrams, Chertoff – and we worry about aliens from south of the Rio Grande? Give me a break.

“MSNBC.com is spreading the Israeli lies. I found it very unlikely that one of the activists tried or was able to “grab a machine gun from a commando”. You’d think with all of their experience in lying and playing the victim, the Israelis would be able to at least come up with believable bullsh*t.”

The liberal news outlet in Israel – Haaretz – report is below.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

No matter what the truth is, Israel has lost and the activists have won. Death of 10 people is inexcusably lousy crowd control. Other issues will be tied to this and Israeli positions on those issues will lose appeal, so Israel will withdraw from any serious discussions on the two state solution and on plans to ease the blockade. But this is a major propaganda victory against Israel – secular man in the street Arab opinion that was neutral on the two state negotiations has turn against Israel overnight – or so I am told. Hamas’s no two state solution ever position has been strengthen.

note to the jews. as far as rahm the traitor to the american taxpayer goes, you can keep him. he’s yours after all. enjoy.

my in-laws always gripe about welfare here in the USA. i always remind them of the $20,000 a year each and every jew in israel gets from the US taxpayer. and its all tax free i might add. nice gig if you can get it.

i cant wait for the jews to start calling me a racist again. love it. i always wonder if they are a sammy davis jr jew or david lee roth jew? cant be both last time i checked.

but then again….. some bad things happened to their great grandparents about 80 years ago. and now they need money and have special rights because of that.

My, my. The Star of David has morphed into the Twisted Cross.

A fascist is a fascist is a fascist.

Kind Mod

The smgXXx remarks are offensive, they are without substance, they add nothing to the conversation, and they are disingenuously false. Please remove the creature until they can show some hint of humanity. Freedom of speech does not extend to propagation of propaganda. Thanks

OK. let me see if i can make you understand this, “JEW” is not a race. never has been, never will be. i can convert to judaism with little more than a desire to do so and a medium size pile of cash. “JEW” is not an ethnicity. it is a religion. nothing more, nothing less. if it IS a race, are you a david lee roth jew or a sammy davis jr jew? you cant be both as far as the rest of us can tell. you are just using that term to try to keep us from commenting on your consistently murdering/thieving/assholish ways. dont like it? too bad.

we wont hold our breath waiting for you to change.

The United States needs to officially condemn this atrocious attack and the war crimes committed by the Israelis. Everyone involved from the commandos who committed the murders up the chain of command to the people who gave the orders, including Netanyahu, should be arrested and turned over to the International Court of Criminal Justice to be tried as war criminals.

The United States must immediately cut-off all military aid to Israel and demand that she disarm herself of all nuclear weapons within 30 days, or we will invade and forcibly disarm them because the Israeli government is too crazy to be trusted.

that’s a broad brush you are wielding there, hoss.

Please, use Israeli zionists instead of jews.

Lemme see now, Israeli special forces boarded privately owned vessels in international waters. I believe that’s called piracy.

Israel is a terrorist state.

” I’ve been asked by a user of the site to remain silent on Israeli crimes for fear of dragging out the usual cast of ignorant, neanderthal nazis (half of whom I know are paid to be so). I believe it is exactly this silence for fear of the neanderthals (faux and real), however, that has resulted in this shocking impunity. So, please note, that ignorant f*%ks and provocateurs will be banned forever from commenting on this site. If you want freedom to speak your ignorance freely, then go create your own site where you can drag your knuckles freely.”
http://maxkeiser.com/2010/05/31/flotilla-jibber-jabber/

seems about right.

and kidnapping.

Yep.

That is why I suggested to continue to send more.

The message that “humanitarian aid equals provocation” will echo the world over as the most twisted view of shalom.

Israel suffers from moral indifference, the same indifference which allowed the Holocaust. This is not what “chosen” is about.

Israel is a terrorist state.

I agree.

the 729 ‘prefix’ on a barcode needs to be boycotted.

Video of the event clearly shows that the “peace activists” on the ship ambushed the Israeli sailors.

The Israeli boarding was done in full compliance with International law, specifically with the Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality sections 5.1 and 5.10.

There would have been no violence had the ship behaved as International law required and followed the Israeli’s to the port of Ashdod to have their cargo inspected before being forwarded to Hamas.

Some of the posters here really need to get away from sensationalist anti-Semitism and start paying attention to the facts.

Exactly, or I’ll feel compelled to seek him out and introduce him to the joys of circumcision. ;-)

I just posted some info about the Strategic Petroleum reserves over at Dakinkat’s thread,”At the End of Our Ropes.”

It would be well to review the Wiki on Strategic Petroleum Reserves and Global Petroleum Reserves, especially the reference to the 1975 Second Sinai withdrawal agreement.

THis has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. It’s about killing unarmed people in international waters. It’s called murder and it’s a crime.

Fine, but then again, so is the United States. Only on a much grander scale.

Maybe, but as a New York half-Jew, non-religious, I can certainly attest to the fact that it FEELS a bit like some commenters just don’t like Jews.

As most Israel-related posts here wind up feeling. Just sayin’ . . .

Hasbra Bullshit watch: Item #27: BBC: Israel, not those who died, is “under fire“

I believe that most American Jews really hate what Israel is doing. My problem is with the Israeli gov’t. I have always wanted Israel to succeed but actions like this are not successful by any definition. Israel is going to become a pariah nation by these tactics and will create it’s own downfall. The Israelis keep the Middle East boiling with one incident after another and their reactions to Hamas are way over the top. Israel may have nukes and everything else that we supply but they are far outnumbered – and that’s just a fact.

They have all been pre-screened by AIPAC. As fascist-traitor Richard Pearle says, there are only a few districts where someone critical of Israel can get elected. AIPAC has completely subverted our democracy and as a result we only have cowardly shills who don’t represent us in Washington.

Well, if that is true, then THEY have to speak out. They can’t just sit on the sidelines and let AIPAC speak for them. If what you say is really true, then what explains their silence? Fear?

I hope they will speak out. Israel should not get a free pass on this as they often have. This is truly horrible and it has ripples far out from the Middle East.

Such BS. You are so blind. You can’t see Israeli aggression. Which came first, the commandos attack the ship, or the activist fight back? And, this was not in Israeli waters. This was in international waters. This was an act of piracy. The Israelis are PIRATES. And besides, your heroes, the IDF, have carefully edited out all the video that shows their monstrous murderous actions. WE KNOW THAT, SO TAKE YOUR HASBRA BULLSHIT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Hmm, maybe the mainstream media has decided who and what WILL be televised and reported to the American public?

I learn more credible info about what is going on in the US from news entities OUTside the US, rather than INside the US.

Some intersting,additional info:

DOE – Fossil Energy: Filling the Strategic Petroleum Reserve – the …Mar 25, 2010 … The average price per barrel for crude oil in the SPR reflects the value of … Sunoco Logistics, and BP North America for exchange of 12.3 …
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserves/spr/spr-fill.html – Cached – Similar

Man, I haven’t gotten high in more than twenty years.
Send me some of whatever you’re smoking.

Talk about conspiracy theories.

The Washington Post has sunk to a new low (yes, I realize that’s difficult) – look at this picture to see how they vilify the victims of Israel’s murders:

WaPo’s front page story about “pro-Palestinian activists” murdered by Israel uses a photo of Arabs burning an American flag.

Your comment is an example of racism. Your attitude is the same as the Nazis.

FWIW, I don’t like a lot of what Israel does, either, and I think most Israelis I’ve met have been arrogant assholes. But there isn’t a single Arab nation I can think of that hasn’t always been worse, when given the opportunity. And what would we do if we were in the exact situation Israel is in? I shudder to think. Neither here nor there.

This is my home site, and I’m proud to be associated with it, but the flavor of some comments following every post that refers to Israel leaves me feeling like I might be hanging out with some plain old Jew haters. Not a good feeling. Makes me sad.

Home
Obama on Zionism and Hamas
Jeffrey Goldberg for the Atlantic
[full article]
Obama and I spoke over the weekend about Hamas, about Jimmy Carter, and about the future of Jewish settlements on the West Bank. He seemed eager to talk about his ties to the Jewish community, and about the influence Jews have had on his life. Among other things, he told me that he learned the art of moral anguish from Jews. We spoke as well about my Atlantic cover story on Israel’s future.

Obama on Zionism and Hamas – International – The AtlanticMay 12, 2008 … …
http://www.theatlantic.com/…/archive/…/obama…zionism-and-hamas/8318/ – Cached

I think everyone is upset about the Palestinian people. Their situation is really bad. If war has to be waged, and I don’t think it does, surely it’s a bad idea to keep children from getting food and meds. And frankly, I don’t get the impression that Israel would stop what it’s doing even if Hamas didn’t fight. Israel wants the land on which the Palestinians have lived for centuries. I don’t think I would sit quietly by if someone told me to get out of my home.

Links and resources on Gaza, Israel and PalestineMar 24, 2010 … 2009 Information Clearing House – natural gas deposit off Gaza’s … Israeli and Palestinian Avaaz members, like other Avaaz members and …
mcloughlinpost.com/LinksAndResourcesOnGazaIsraelAndPalestine.html – Cached

You are in denial. In my lifetime, I have met very very very few “plain old Jew haters.” Such people are figments of your imagination. It may pain you to hear it, but if anti-Semitism is on the rise, then you have only Israel and AIPAC to thank for it. People are upset because it is a NATURAL HUMAN REACTION to sympathize with the victims of violence. They are not upset because they are “plain old Jew haters.” Sorry if that upsets the cute little narrative that you need to stick by to get through the day.

Maybe you should ponder how many “plain old Christian haters” or “plain old Muslim haters” there are. Indeed, I’ll make you a deal. For every plain old Jew hater you can name, I can name two plain old Christian or Muslim haters.

I think it’s also vitally important to see this sad event, and specifically Israel’s description of and justification of it, as reflective of Israel’s description of other (perhaps most or even all) events in Israel’s history.

That shines a bright new light on the entire story of the whole country – and on the US and Israel’s “special bond.”

Coincidentally, 1975 is the SAME year highlighted in in this ,recently discussed issue:

How Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons.15 posts – 13 authors – Last post: 6 days ago
Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the … The Unspoken Alliance: Israel’s secret alliance with apartheid South Africa. ….. They met, exchanged tactics and idea(l)s. …
http://www.militaryphotos.net/…/showthread.php?…South-Africa-nuclear... – Cached

NOTE: In the ’08 Atlantic Magazine interview with Obama by Jeff Goldberg, (referenced upthread at #138 )Jimmy Carter is mentioned as referring to Israel as an “apartheid state”.

For the record,Israel has denied ANY alliance with South Africa.

Turkey Promises to Send Supplies to Gaza With Naval Escort

I’m upset for anyone or anything that’s in pain. Period. But it takes moral relativism on steroids to find one side more or less culpable in the Middle East. Noone sits quietly by there, and the history has been ugly on both sides. VERY ugly. I’m just turned off by the flavor of hate that dominates many of these comments. We who live here don’t have the excuse for unreasoning hatred that denizens of the Middle East have.

For example, see what [Edited by Moderator] eblair has written at #141 in response to the same comment you responded to, and then tell me I don’t have a point.

The discussion is about what happened yesterday. Not what happened some other time.

Israel and the Middle East conflict
Obama on Zionism and Hamas – extensive interview with Jeffrey Goldberg

I appreciate the immediacy of yesterday, but it doesn’t cause me to automatically forget all the history I so painstakingly studied. That history formed yesterday and today. And nobody believes that more strongly than the people who actually live in the Middle East.

Your personal remarks directed at me were totally off the mark, and deeply offensive. Just so you know.

Let’s not make the mods life anymore difficult that it already is today….OK?

Amazon.com: The Unspoken Alliance: Israel’s Secret Relationship…Amazon.com: The Unspoken Alliance: Israel’s Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa (9780375425462): Sasha Polakow-Suransky: Books.
http://www.amazon.com/Unspoken-Alliance…/0375425462 – 14 hours ago – Cached

“The Unspoken Alliance”: New Book Documents Arms, Nuclear and …May 25, 2010 … Israeli President Shimon Peres has denied reports he offered to sell nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa when he was defense minister …
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/5/25/israel – Cached

Hey, I’m all for that, but don’t single me out–there’s a LOT of hateful rhetoric on this thread.

Try looking at #108 and #111 above, which the Mods ignored, which is the only reason I would ever get involved with the tarbaby that every discussion of Israel on this site seems to devolve into.

As much as I tried, repeatedly, my Momma never bought “but he did it to”.

I asked you, and can we leave it at that?

You made a blanket statement about other peoples motivations here. Do you understand that people are sick and tired of the charge of anti-Semitism? Do you understand that the vast majority of the time it is used to silence debate? Do you understand that it is VERY OFFENSIVE? As far as your distinction between those who have an “excuse for unreasoning hatred” and those who don’t based on where they live, it is nonsense. Nobody has such an excuse. Furthermore, understand that AIPAC and affiliate groups are BIG PLAYERS in all of this. They have much much responsibility for what is happening. I knew a man who was very well connected in the UK. Indeed, he was knighted. He surprised me once when he laid much of the blame for the troubles in Northern Ireland at the feet of American Irish who supplied money and weapons. A fortiori, in the I/P confict, AIPAC deserves much BLAME. Lastly, the fact that the mods are censoring you, indicates that perhaps you are the one having difficulty controlling YOUR OWN offensive remarks. Just so YOU know.

Absolutely. My Momma never bought it, either lol. ;-)

I’ll say the same thing to you that I said to razorbrain.

Let’s…please….dial it down a notch. OK?

We only need to fleetingly compare the USA to Israel, and then we can be off moving through Egypt, Jordan, all of europe etc.

Most governments do not represent the majority opinion of their people. They manipulate public opinion with fear and propaganda. The Israeli Government, much as ours, is corrupt and bloodthirsty.

The assholes who declare their hatred for jews, are just that – best ignored by fair minded people. And people, in general just want to live their lives and raise their families in peace.

The sick, fascist governments of Israel and US, need to be confronted by the citizens of the world, not just their own. Paraphrasing an Iranian official who is said not to have said what he said: This criminal (insert country of choice) government needs to be [Edited by Moderator.].

If a political discussion doesn’t challenge people, then it is not a political discussion. Politics begins with disagreement.

We can discuss, and we can even engage in heated debate, but can we agree to back off the vitriol?

Ecumenical News International has an especially informative piece on this issue:

Palestinian Christians urge protests after Israeli assault on flotilla‎ – 6 hours ago

Bethlehem/Geneva (ENI). Palestinian Christian organizations have urged protests by church groups around the world against an Israeli assault on ships …
Ecumenical News International – 46 related articles »

Israel may have nukes and everything else that we supply but they are far outnumbered – and that’s just a fact.

Yeah right. Although they have one of the worlds most bloated armies, nukes as you point out, a pitch black record on human rights and crimes against international law, are an agressive occupant of palestinian land and frequently fly out in these ultra violent attacks on aid workers… Israel is still the victim?

Come on! Israel is under no threat whatsoever and havent been for a long time. To the contrary, they are nice and snuggly with several other rouge states in the area, and the main perpetrator of military aggression.

The massacre on the convoy has created an uproar here in Europe. I really wish that you americans could see the truth behind all the bullshit propaganda they spoonfeed you. Because things wont change until you make them.

This debate has been put off for way way way too long. And it has just begun. CNN can pretend that Americans are not debating Israel now like never before, but they are. Those were American helicopters used in this act of piracy and many many Americans are rightly pissed off. “Vitriol” is pretty damned ambiguous. If you want to object to a specific claim then do so. Blanket dismissals of opinions are part of problem.

A lot of Americans do, but it is hard to combat 9 HUMUNGOUS propaganda outfits masquerading as “news” organizations.

I appreciate the immediacy of yesterday, but it doesn’t cause me to automatically forget all the history I so painstakingly studied.

How about the part of history where the palestinians from one day to the other found themselves robbed of half of the land they had lived in for generations? Its very easy to hide behind the “the middle east is so comlicated and full of old hatreds” meme. History should inform you that people want justice, deserve justice and if their just claims are not met, violence and wars follow.

You’ve made some good contributions to FDL over the last six months, but actually, this “debate” has been going on at FDL for some years now.

Please take a step back and think about how you address your fellow FDL commenters or the mods will have to do what they really hate to do.

A lot of Americans do, but it is hard to combat 9 HUMUNGOUS propaganda outfits masquerading as “news” organizations.

Yeah, i know. Most of you guys here seem to get it. But its uncomprehensible to me that ANYONE who claim to be progressive could defend Israel, especially on a day like this.

This is so tiresome. You all are jumping off on the basis of a one-sided blog which avoids the following reports: Israeli forces, in support of a legal blockade, boarded these ships to turn them around. They were attacked with iron pipes and other weapons which, if you experienced them, you would concede can be deadly. Several soldiers were seized and thrown from one deck to another. Now, stay with me for one second, you brave militants. If these representations are true, we have a very different picture. How could soldiers be overcome by civilians, you ask? Because the soldiers were attempting a non-lethal take-over of the ships. Weapons were used only when they were attacked.

What? Lies you say? Why don’t we wait for the facts to come out before shouting ourselves red in the face? What still takes me aback, no matter how many times we go through this exercise of Israel-baiting, is the Pavlovian response which can only accept “truth” which is anti-Israel.

However flawed it may be, there is only one democracy in the states of Israel and Palestine, and it ain’t Palestine. Both sides have killed civilians in this long tragic affair, but only one side deliberately targets them. Non-targeted dead civilians remain dead civilians, I know, but there is a difference, my friends, and God help you if you are too blinded by hate to understand this. In 100 years, or with luck in a lot less time, the peaceful nations of Palestine and Israel, thriving in the prosperity created by their peoples who share so much in terms of industry and intelligence and resourcefulness, will look back with the intense sadness brought by knowing that it all could have come about so much earlier with a little sanity on both sides and a lot of sanity from peoplel like those shouting at each other in these blog comments.

Thank you for sparing me the need to write that. It is the wildly unbalanced flavor of this thread which I have been objecting to.

Because the soldiers were attempting a non-lethal take-over of the ships.

Just for the record, how is it legal for Israel to attempt a non-lethal any kind of take-over of ships in international waters, well outside of the legal Israeli waters? Doesn’t that fit the text book definition of piracy?

Why don’t we wait for the facts to come out before shouting ourselves red in the face?

Why dont YOU wait for the facts to come out before you start spreading hasbara BS? Israel has conveniently locked up all witnesses in jail and effectively blocked the other side from giving their version, which i would be very interested in hearing. Because i know that the IDF never fails to lie and spin. And i know that Israels stalwarth defenders dont give a damn about what the truth is.

And BTW, its not a crime to defend a ship against boarding by pirates on international waters. The criminals are the boarders. Just like its not a crime to resist military occupation.

Nice to be able to speak out of both sides of your mouth at once. Did the civilians attack, or didn’t they? Did they intend to run the blockade, or didn’t they?

Rubber, meet glue. Dear Swede, the entire point of my blog, had you read it through un-angry eyes, was to tell folks that there was indeed another side to this, another version of reality. I wanted folks to withhold judgment until they had heard both sides and until some truth could emerge from the understandable passion. I think I helped the dialogue, but you, sir, do not help with your invective.

[Mod Note: Attack arguments only. do not attack individuals or we will have to edit/remove your comments]

are you saying that you are agreeing with the statement that an apartheid state is a democracy?

Do I have the right to set up a toll booth on a public street in front of my house, and should anyone be unwilling to adhere I then grant myself the right to detain the driver and his passengers and impound their cars? And should they physically object to my insanity I am then within my rights to defend myself by shooting the lot of them?

The other side of reality? We’ve just gone through 8 years of such reality. It was 99% lies, or do you really feel that that the Patriot Act is a necessary law implemented for the protection of the citizenry?

“Once again most Americans of both parties, including liberals, moderates and conservatives, will stand by Israel. Only the circus freaks on the far left and far right will support the howling, racist mobs screaming for Jewish blood in the rest of the world.”

I know Nazis when I see them. The government of Israel is as racist, nationalistic, callous and evil as the regime of Adolph Hitler. The religious right loves Israel’s policy toward the Palestinians. They believe it essential to bring on the end of days.

Shame on Israel and shame on you. It would be a better more sane and peaceful world without you and it.

The other side of reality is the interpretation of events by the Fourth Estate on behalf of very sketchy and narrow interests.

I haven’t followed razorbrain’s comments, but judging from his statements here, I’d have to surmise that he/she finds the Bush Years to have been extremely just and the supine posture of our media conglomerates quite kosher.

WOW.. Where’s the Mod when you really need him/her?

I respect you and usually agree with you on most issues relating to this country (which is what I really care about; the Middle East, not so much), so, let’s just agree that Israel is more of a democracy than any of its neighbors, OK? You and I both know there are unique issues there, and none of us here would be able to implement a perfect strategy to deal with them all.

Nice to be able to speak out of both sides of your mouth at once. Did the civilians attack, or didn’t they? Did they intend to run the blockade, or didn’t they?

Well at least im not defending one of the dirtiest regimes in the world. Which of course, as always, means blaming its victims instead of the agressors.

I dont know what happened any more than you do. Israel has made sure of that. But im not stupid enough to buy the IDF version, and neither should you. And piracy is still a crime. It would of course be foolish to try to beat the IDF commando soldiers with sticks. But not criminal. And since the patter of israeli aggression always involves heavy propaganda spin, im inclined to believe that the video is hasbara BS.

…And, i might add, that since Israel claims its not occupying Gaza at the moment, it has no legal right whatsoever to stop ships from docking at its harbour. On the other hand, if Israel is still the occupant, it is both legally just and morally imperative to fight the occupying force.

The Mods are right here…and FWIW, he (EDIT=”empiricalguy”) states a point which, regardless of what I may personally think of the value of his logic, does not violate basic commenting guidelines.

Here’s a little challenge….please reply to that comment in a way that points out how you think his comment has no logical value…and then, stay within the very basic commenting guidelines.

I truly do look forward to that reply :)

This is all very useful. Actually, in places it’s profound. Thank you for posting it!

It’s amazing how the U.S. tried to blame the victims via our ambassador’s speech at the U.N. Apparently, Israel has claimed that the flotilla was attacking Israeli “sovereignty.” Apparently this sovereignty now extends to international waters! Israel and only Israel is responsible for the murderous behavior of its soldiers, and for the U.S. to act like Israel is a child that was beat up by civilian bullies is to demonstrate how out of touch with the rest of the world is the U.S. administration, Congress, the State Dept. and our ambassador at the U.N., when ti comes to Israeli claims and behavior. What a Memorial Day. I will always remember this day of U.S. b-sing at the U.N. beyond our usual nonsensical behavior in vetoing U.N resolutions aimed at bringing Israel into line with international law.

LMAO. See your own comment #153, last sentence. Got irony?

Can you think of any other “dirty” regimes to project your rage at? I can think of dozens. Don’t you care about them? How callous.

BTW, when you openly concede that you don’t know what happened there any more than I do, I suggest that a rational, balanced person would wait until he did know before taking such extreme positions as you are. Just sayin’ . . .

Funny to see you using the “Nazi” label in the same comment where you state that the world would be better if the nation of Jews disappeared.

Maybe it would also be a saner and more peaceful world if your mother had disappeared before you were born.

How’s that, Mod. Was that good Worth looking forward to?

Sheesh!

Pleezzee. Israel is supported by US tax dollars. $20,000 per person per year. If Israel received no US aid, you might have a point.

Do you think every Israeli should get 20k a year? Yes or no?

Do you think that the US has been correct vetoing all those UN resolutions over the years? Yes or no?

Name another country that the US has shielded in this way.

This is what the debate is about and why Americans have a special concern. We are told we have a special relationship.

Answer the questions please.

And I’m gonna say, please just step back from this thread. I asked nicely and you just can’t seem to resist, so now I’m going to tell you:

Step back…tomorrow is another day and I hope we can reconnect then in a more civil fashion.

As I just said above, please just step back from this thread. I asked nicely and somehow that word doesn’t seem to be getting through here.

Tomorrow is another day and I hope we can reconnect then in a more civil fashion.

Dear RBG: As you wish, and no hard feelings on my part. I am honestly perplexed, though, if comment #184 prompted your request?????

I usually know better than to even get involved with the Israeli tarbaby. Never again lol.

Peace, and a good night to you.

I checked it out in Wikipedia…a state actor does not commit piracy. Piracy is an act of a non-state actor. Therefore, since the activist-terrorists were acting as private individuals, and their actions (whatever actions, according to Israel) were illegal, Israel should be able to try them as pirates (unless they killed all the real bad ones). The problem with that is, they’re not black (under US law, an element of the crime), and at least some of them may be Jewish (under US law, an absolute defense).

Step back=don’t comment?

That’s some real nifty parsing there, Will. However, can the Free Gaza Flotilla really be characterized as “merchant vessels of a neutral state”?
And I can’t imagine how you managed to overlook section 5.3:

5.3 Relief
A blockade may not be used to prevent the passage of relief consignments which has to be free according
to the applicable rules of international humanitarian law, in particular those contained in Articles 23, 59 and
61 of the Fourth Geneva Convention or Articles 69 and 70 of Protocol I Additional to the Geneva
Conventions.

There! We eagerly await your learned response.

Can you think of any other “dirty” regimes to project your rage at? I can think of dozens. Don’t you care about them? How callous.

BTW, when you openly concede that you don’t know what happened there any more than I do, I suggest that a rational, balanced person would wait until he did know before taking such extreme positions as you are. Just sayin’ . . .

WHAT do you know of what “other regimes” i protest against when they commit atrocities? Thats right, nada. But thats the standard line from Israel loyalist, whenever Israel commits a crime: starta to blame the people that respond to it. Question their motives. Talk about other things.

And we have som facts here that are hard to overlook: 19 people killed. Many more injured. No israeli casualties. A fleet carrying humanitarian aid attacked on international waters. Massive violence. Those facts are damning, anyway you look at them.

I’m not a great believer in piling on, but…
I don’t think I would meet your criteria for a plain old anti-semite.
And I think you are stepping off into the quicksand here.
With reference to your moral equivalency, I suggest you read Neve Gordon’s
book (I can’t think of the name offhand), and then we can have a nice argument about who got it right, him or Leon Uris (your so painstakingly studied history.

To Douglas at #166
I do so appreciate the voice of reason you bring to this discussion.
It would help my reasoning if you could describe the 100-year-from-now
“peaceful nations of Palestine and Israel, thriving in the prosperity created by their peoples who share so much in terms of industry and intelligence and resourcefulness”…I mean, like describing their borders?
And does peaceful Palestine have access to its own airspace? Or off-shore
waters? And are the peaceful Palestinians still tunneling like moles under
the peaceful Israeli-only highways?
Thank you for the much needed injection of reason.
(Your reason would gag a vulture.)

freespeechlover:
Can you give a cite to “our ambassador’s speech at the UN”, please?

“your reason would gag a vulture.” So this is what passes for acceptable debate on this blog? I get this creepy itchy feeling when I read stuff like this. Also when I see these references to all=powerful “mods” who apparently get to put limits on how people think or talk on this blog. Limits that have nothing to do with reason and everything to do with protecting the “right’think” they espouse. Creepy, creepy, creepy.

I presented a vision that I thought even the most virulent Israel-haters on this blog would appreciate. It had nothing to do with borders and armies and atrocities and hatred. It had everything to do with possibilities and seeing commonality and humanity in those we now perceive to be our enemies. Your reaction is sad.

Who are you and why do you think you get to limit the debate when you don’t like the direction it is going? You need to stand down, not the voices of reason you seek to throttle.

I would like a moderator or anyone with experience on this blog to explain to me why this post which personally attacked me is permitted to remain when others which have no vitriol but only argument are shot down.

OK, I’ll bite. Are you using a Jewish name to incite, confuse, or just sew more racial hatred on this blog?

douglas, as you continue to scream into the void, consider this: I saw your ideas attacked, not you personally.

And while I personally disagree with you @ 166 – and vehemently so – your comment does not appear to be constrained in any way. Is that incorrect?

Did someone call you a name? Or did they impugn your take?

Saying that my reason would gag a vulture has nothing to do with reasoned debate and everything to do with word association seeking to link me to a carrion=eating animal. Or am I being thin=skinned, my oh so reasonable brother? Also, what does it mean to say one’s reasoning would gag a vulture. Vultures eat dead things, so I guess a living breathing reasoning would gag a vulture. So should I thank this paragon or reason for a back=handed compliment?

The constraints to which I referred were not on me, except for one warning that I should stick to reason and drop the ad hominem. They referred to the individual who appeared to be threating others with censorhip and who appears to have accomplished that goal by forcing their target to stop his or her debate. That’s a crying shame, and I hope you can at least agree with me there.

Who cares? What I see is that instead of constructing an argument supporting your comment, you jumped on the first chance to point fingers for name-calling. But your ideas – that is what we try and traffic in here – are IMO specious and not thoughtfully presented, and it is your ideas that were attacked.

And I appreciate you being both furious AND not inclined towards ad hominem insults.

“Who cares.” Excellent debating point there. If my ideas are so “specious” and unthoughtfully presented, it should be child’s play for you to actually address them and logically demolish them. In the words of the late Adlai Stevenson, I shall wait, sir, until hell freezes over.