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Please stay on topic–in this case who, what, where, when why and how we exist; the meaning of life, sex, religion and happiness; the nature of love, of God, of existence,

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC If you want to jump in about the Gulf oil spill, the fotilla of aid, predator drones or anything else not about tonight’s topics please find a post elsewhere on FDL to do so. Thank you.

Please–and I can’t believe I still have to say this, but–no ad hominen remarks. And please be respectful of our guests and of each other. And yeah, I tpye badly…

Hi Roger, welcome to Firedoglake Movie Night!

Hi, Everybody! Roger here…

Hi Roger–thank you so much for making The Nature of Existence. And for giving me a hint on how to make a great tomato sauce for pizza…

Yes it’s a big topic indeed! So don’t hold back…

Roger, thanks for being here. Great film.

Ha! I had to interrogate Big Lenny to get the no secret secret.

YOu did a great job pinning him down…as you did with others in the film. YOu are a great interviewer..and people do love to talk about their beliefs!

It’s harder to get people to shut up, than it is to get them talking. And I love to listen, so it’s symbiotic…

Welcome Mr. Nygard; tell the truth; you had a great amount of fun and pleasure in making this film, did you not?

What inspired you to take do this project?

How long did it take you to shoot the footage–how long were you traveling. And how did you get away with filming in China..please tell us about China..

Even if the film was never seen, or I never finished it, the journey itself was worth it. Everybody should take a religious pilgrimage at least once. Imagine writing down the questions that bother you most, keep you up at night, and then asking religious leaders, scientists, and your neighbors all the questions. It’s therapeutic. 8 of my interviewees were psychologists, so that WAS like therapy.

“What comes across is that people have faith” ; will there be a sequel to The Nature of Existence” titled “what is faith?”

Kidding aside, in your interviews did you encounter a true vedic brahman? the reason I ask is that there is no ‘big bang’ in that worldview/’faith’.

At the age of thirteen when my father died it brought the concept of mortality front and center. Suddenly I had an overload of questions about life and death. I wondered what the point of everything was. If there was an afterlife, which part of you goes there? When my father finally let go, I wondered which version went on, that emaciated enfeebled shadow of his former self, or would he be restored to some earlier incarnation, and if so, how early? Opening this door led to more questions, such as: If a retarded person dies, are they retarded for eternity? If a baby dies, is he a baby for eternity? And if not, does he get an instantaneous college education–and who gets to choose his major?

And then when 9-11 happened, I was trying to understand why people would fly airplanes into buildings filled with other people. How could we all believe things with absolute certainty that are so different? I was unable to stop badgering friends with questions. Why do we exist? What is our purpose? If there’s an afterlife, where exactly is it located? What created the Universe? With billions of stars in billions of galaxies to be mindful of, why would a god get apoplectic if you have sex before you are married? Being a filmmaker, it occurred to me to start filming these conversations. Well… that lead to a 4 years on the road, 170 2 to 4 hour interviews…and a lot of editing to make the film you see now…

China was surprising on many levels. I was surprised that once I got into China nobody ever questioned my right to be there or tried to stop me or refused to answer any questions. Ironically, I was hassled a lot in the USA and the UK. I constantly heard, “Hey you can’t shoot in here!” I attribute this to the prevalence of reality shows; people are more on guard now and aware of potential humiliation caused by those shows. When we went through Heathrow, Paul Tarantino (my coproducer and coeditor) was shooting footage of me on the escalator walking toward customs as the sun was setting behind me. It turns out if you take your camera out near customs there they get all panicky.

wow

It is wonderful to take that trip with you. What are you believing now about any of the questions you asked? How–if at all–did any of your notions, thoughts and/or beliefs change?

It’s technically illegal to shoot interviews in China so I was nervous about it. But I stayed under the radar, was respectful, and everybody was super nice.

In your interviews, did you have any neurologists?

Do you know if there as been any fallout for your Chinese subjects?

The sequel will depend on if all your friends to see the movie. ;-) As for encountering the various religious sects and experts like a vedic brahman, there was no way to cover everything, so I tried to go to the source of all the major religious and philosophical belief systems. There are over 1000 religions on the planet, so there is only so much I could fit in 94 minutes. I find interview subjects through a process I call the three Rs: random chance, research, and referrals. I take every suggestion seriously, no matter how ridiculous. The way I found the Ultimate Christian Wrestlers, for example, was when a friend sent me a link to their website and suggested I interview them, as a joke. I looked at their site and thought, “They look perfect!” I arranged to be at a wrestling match and filmed it. The end of their show is the most amazing part, when they present a passion play in the wrestling ring, which they rewrite for every event. They were really nice guys–when they weren’t bashing heads . I went to church with them the next day, and filmed it of course.

As a reminder –
To reply to specific comment, hit the Reply button underneath the Comment number and then type away.

I was pretty amazed by them. And it’s a classic gospel move–look at the original passion plays and stained glass windows–all designed to teach te congregation

Thanks, it had to be a gas making the film; really look forward to seeing it and sharing it with friends. So ,iterating Lisa, “How–if at all–did any of your notions, thoughts and/or beliefs change?”

Wish I had known of your method; I would have referred you to David Frawley.
http://www.vedanet.com/

And how did you find the Christian drag racers?

One of the most wonderful things you show is huge LGBT church in Houston. That segment was wonderful..can you tell us about them, please?

In making the film I went from anger to peace…I was very angry in 2001, trying to understand why people could believe in something so strongly that they could fly planes into buildings. I can barely commit to buying a new car, much less driving it into a building. So how could they, and I, believe things that are so different? That is what I set out to understand. As I traveled and met so many people, I learned what they believed (I had never even hear of Jainism, which is the oldest continuously practiced religion on the planet), and as I learned about them, they were no longer scary. I began to like them. And as I began to understand them, my anger was replaced by a sense of peace. One thing learned, is that we will NEVER all agree. So our only hope is to learn about each other, and tolerate each other’s beliefs, whether we agree with them or not.

Dr. Andrew Newberg, Director of Clinical Nuclear Medicine, Director of NeuroPET Research, and Associate Professor in the Department of Radiology at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania, author of Why God Won’t Go Away

Thanks for making this movie, Roger. I had a blast watching it with my twelve-year-old son and my spouse. It launched a myriad of conversations with the boy, some of which were hysterical; still chuckling about the masturbation bit, during which my son said, Hey, I’m trying to eat here! Too much of a distraction, I guess, and yet it did offer an opportunity to tell him No, you are not going to hell or going to go blind if you masturbate.

My spouse’s reaction was just as amusing; he asked, Is this a movie?

No fallout for my new Chinese friends. But they have been asking about the movie and when they can see it. I may have to go back to screen it for them.

At point someone in the film said that in science one truth is found that is the origina of an issue (I am paraphrasing here) and that maybe religion can get to that point of One Source whence issue all faiths…?

1. Why are we here on earth?
1A. Because this is the planet of the apes, and we come from apes.

2. What the meaning of existence?
2A. Existence means eating, sleeping, eliminating, reproducing (some of us) and dying (all of us).

3. What is man’s purpose?
3A. It’s the same as woman’s purpose and different from a porpoise’s purpose.

4. What started the Universe?
4A. No one will admit doing it.

5. Where was God during the Holocaust?
5A. He was hiding from the SS.

6. What is Truth?
6A. Two kinds: mathematical and empirical. Read Bertrand Russell.

7. Should people have sex before marriage?
7A. Yes, if they are so inclined (or reclined).

6. What is the best way to find happiness?
6A. Google it!

7. Where is the afterlife?
7A. The afterlife is found mostly in the minds of people of faith.

8. Where are the voices in my head coming from?
8A. If you would stop asking dumb questions and listen, you could tell.

9. And what about masturbation?
9A. Don’t ask and don’t tell!

“So our only hope is to learn about each other, and tolerate each other’s beliefs, whether we agree with them or not.”; and isn’t it amazing that such is the core tenet of all the ‘major’ religions and yet the intolerance continues?

Regarding The Cathedral of Hope, in Dallas. Here’s a link to a page on our site that excerpts that segment:

http://thenatureofexistence.com/hidden/the-nature-of-god-in-the-reddest-state/

I was in Dallas for the USA Film Festival, and did my usual where I’d ask everybody, “What does your city have that’s unique for a film about the nature of existence?” And I got the suggestion to visit the church. They claim to be the largest gay megachurch in the world. And I have no reason to doubt them. I was so lucky to be there for Reverend Jo Hudson’s sermon where she talked about having to come out of the closet or lie about herself to stay in the seminary…

#6 “There are no whole truths; all truths are half- truths. It is trying to treat them as whole truths that plays the devil.
Alfred North Whitehead

HA! That’s great. Some of the best reactions to the movie have been from teenagers, and middle school aged kids. Personally, I have come to the point where I believe it’s best to be honest with children, even if it’s about difficult subjects. Why should anything be taboo or unspeakable? Openness about the hard topics will better prepare kids for life… I don’t think anybody saw the masturbation question coming, and I loved asking it, because why should we be afraid to talk about what’s natural? Unless we want to cling to the idea that masturbation is unnatural. But the definition of normal is what most people are doing.

The scientist who said: “In science whenever we see a diversity of viewpoints, at the end of the day they all become unified because there’s one reality. If religion is talking about something that is external to us, then all of them will likely follow, I believe, a similar path.” was Sylvester James Gates, Jr., John S. Toll Professor of Physics, University of Maryland, College Park, MD.

He also has the final word in the movie. I LOVE talking to physicists. They are the most philosophical people…

In your interviews -especially Dr. Newberg- did many point out the evolution of the ‘god’ concept and how the brain is programmed to arrange stimuli in order to alleviate uncertainty?

OMG–Whitehead, Process Theology!

Religious that require proselytizing or conversion are what make tolerance difficult. It makes sense for religions to try to grow–that’s how they get more followers, and more followers means more income, and a better chance at being one of the religions that survives.

Confucius said, “Do not do to others what you would not want done to you.” It’s called the Silver Rule. It’s less invasive than the Golden Rule. It’s more of a live and let live philosophy. They way Julia Sweeney put it when I asked her, was to rewrite the Golden Rule like this: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you–but ask them first if it’s okay.”

String theory and qabala in one discussion!

Oh and–I am still wrangling with “UNIVERSE” To me it has always been soooo vast that it has no end, and within that are all permutations of existence/non/existence–whether you ting f the universe in therms of astronomy astro/physics or religiously. Like, how can you have more than one UNI-verse?

Thanks for the link; well isn’t theology philosophy?

“Also it’s funny to see atheist author Richard Dawson slip and say….”

…survey says! :-} I believe you meant Dawkins, yes? Richard Dawson hosted Match Game.

Honestly, many thanks for the exceptional choice of topics, this is exactly what I’m on about all the time: what are we? what does it mean, to be an American human being at this time? How have we answered that question before? How might those answers be impeding the progress of our shared narrative: away from generating hellscapes, toward our more perfect Union? What new answers might we suggest?

I bow in your virtual direction.

This way.

The evolutionists all trace our predisposition to believe in the supernatural to pattern seeking, which was advantageous to survival. We look for cause and effect patterns, and utilize that information to avoid danger, or to know when the herd will pass through our valley again, or to explain why it rains (we did the rain dance right this time!). The problem for us arises when we associate effects with antecedents that are not related in any way except temporally, or coincidentally. As Michael Shermer stresses, we forget the misses, and remember the hits. That’s how psychics or prophets work. We want them to succeed, so we dismiss their failures, and trumped the times they get close to the mark.

Yes, there is no truth in my enumeration. Did you notice that?

The Buddha as a Businessman

You know the part which really got to the kid? It was the confrontational proselytizer. My son was really disgusted and offended by him, thought he was a jackass and an ignorant one to boot.

I was so proud of him and his reaction.

The other parts we were chatting up a lot were those in which the theologists sounded more like physicists. They sounded lucid, made more sense. I was drawn to the Taoist more than I expected to be, perhaps because of the bit about being contented with one’s lot. Like the Buddhist seeking nirvana through freedom from desire, the concept seems wholly antithetical to American consumerist culture.

I just know we are going to have conversations for weeks about this. Highly recommend watching this with friends, although probably not with alcohol consumption, could start some heated discussions.

The favored term is now multi-verse. Universe used to mean everything. Turns out we are less and less significant in the grand scheme of things, the more we learn. The string theorists currently theorize that there are an infinite number of universes, of which ours is only one, in a vast tapestry of universes, each of which has a different set of laws of physics. Ours may be the only one where life such as ours is possible, or there many be an infinite number of others…

“We want them to succeed, so we dismiss their failures, and trumped the times they get close to the mark.” ; you ‘trumpeted’ didn’t you(no problem,I can’t type worth a damn so efvveryone gets a pass from me).

Of course but I did get people to notice Whitehead didn’t I?

D’oh! Pardon me, that’s Family Feud, dagnabit.

so that is “universe” as we know it in science–stars and planets and stuff, but there are others and we don;t actually KNOW them..

You have made my day!! That’s my only goal in making a film like this. If I can just get people to think for themselves a little more, to challenge the information that we all receive, it will all have been worth it. I love hearing people’s opinions. I just added a way for people to answer the questions on my website. If you go to the page with all the questions, you can post your answers:

http://thenatureofexistence.com/about/the-questions/

trumpet ! Yes, thanks!

And this “The Holographic Universe” will ‘stretch’ one’s little grey cells.

YOu’ve been showing this online in webisodes. What are the theatrical/TV plans?

Oh, and thank you, Roger, for the bit with Leonard Shlain. He died last year, never got a chance to hear him speak; I’ve read his book The Alphabet vs. The Goddess several times, enjoyed how it had stimulated thought and conversation for me although I did think it a bit flawed.

[Side note: my son is now telling his older sister about this movie. I think they're going to watch the screener again together because she can't believe what he's telling her about it.]

Actually, we really don’t know ‘of them’; hell we haven’t figured out what dark matter and energy might be. *G*

Another example of ‘faith’, meaning without empirical evidence.

BTW, you ever hear the Deepak Chopra quote “god gave us love and the devil gave us religion’?

Not only are there other universes, the physicists currently believe (you have to say currently because it’s always subject to change when new information is uncovered) that there are eleven dimensions. What does dimension nine look like? We exist in four dimensions, and so that’s how we perceive the universe. We expect it to behave in a four dimensional manner. But it doesn’t, and that’s where we have troubles when things don’t behave the way we want them to. It’s a lot of work to maintain a belief system that is contrary to what science shows. When that happens we often attack the messenger, who has tried to point out our flawed perceptions and conclusions. Gallileo, Darwin, so many people over our history.

First up is the theatrical release of the movie. June 18 in NYC at the Quad, July 2 in LA at the Sunset 5 and Edwards Univ. Town Ctr. 6 in Orange County, and many other cities to follow (you can see them here–adding new cities all the time):

http://thenatureofexistence.com/now-showing/

After the theatrical, home video follows November 9. And television after as well. Stay tuned for where and when.

And I’ll tell you a little secret info I haven’t released yet… I’m working on a 7 DVD set that takes all these subjects MUCH deeper, for those who want to really dig into these questions. In one sense the movie The Nature of Existence will be the appetizer, and the follow-up DVDs will be the whole meal.

As we learn more our perceptions change, and it’s very neat to see how medieval and Renaissance philosophers and those from the Age of Enlightenment have ideas we are now able to subject to new scientific explorations.

In my follow up bonus DVDs, there is a LOT of Leonard Shlain. I read his books and really enjoyed meeting him. He told me so many great stories and fascinating concepts, I have to make his interview available…

WONDERFUL. I think this will be a great holiday gift item!

Here’s a good one:

“To be good and do good – that is the whole of religion.”
Swami Vivekananda

One of the most comment comments after screenings is: “That was so much information. Where can I get the DVD. I wanted to be able to pause it and think for a while.”

Thanks Roger for being here; gotta go; will keep watching for when it’s released in San Diego County,CA (hint,hint).

And thank you for making the film.

San Diego, CA
July 9, 2010
Reading Cinemas Gaslamp 15
701 5th Avenue
San Diego, CA 92101
info: http://www.readingcinemasus.com/ -or – (619) 232-0401
tickets: 1 (800) 326-3264, #2709 -or-fandango.com

I often get asked, “What’s the answer?” It’s natural to look for a purpose in life. It seems like everybody’s looking for a big complex answer somewhere up in the sky. But after looking all over the world, I think the answer is so simple, that’s part of why it’s so hard to see….

At screenings of The Nature of Existence, the second most common question I hear is, “Do you believe in God?” I usually respond, “Before I can answer that I have to ask you, to which definition of God do you eman?” Most haven’t considered what are the specifics of what they believe. As Mahatma Gandhi said, “…there are as many religions as there are individuals.”

My composer for the film and co-producer, Billy Sullivan, put his finger on this problem when he told me, “I can’t sit here and tell you anything about who God is unless that experience happens to you.”

Exactly. I had a friend who was a scientist, and through me he learned about African Traditional Religions–santeria, vodou, hoodoo–which he thought was and interesting concept. Then he was in Cuba and had some weird stuff happen there and here related to magic, ATR and witchcraft. Kinda changed his mindset bit…

The Christian Drag Racers were another recommendation. My composer, Billy Sullivan, knew of a Christian rock band called One In Him, that plays at the race track at the church services. Who turns down an opportunity to do to the races? Or to travel? My camera has taken me all over the world. Great travel companion…

I LOVED Chloe? How did you find her?

Chloe Revery literally lives across the street from me. Pure chance… Children are fantastic interviewees, they are more honest than adults. Older people too, they tell it like it is. They are no longer as afraid of what people might think if them if they tell the truth…

You found some amazing subjects to interview about some amazing subjects. I appreciated the inclusion of John Atack.

Oh wow, bonus content with Shlain? Most excellent!

I’ll recommend a book for you as a complement to Shlain’s Alphabet-Goddess — The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerners Think Differently… and Why, by Richard E. Nisbett. Again, pretty good stuff, although a little flawed again in its perspective, in same manner as Shlain.

Why flawed? Because Nisbett and Shlain write as men from their gender’s perspective.

Look at the number of women you feature in interviews in your movie, too, for that matter. Women may see the nature and origin of existence differently, because our experience is different and shapes a different reality or state of consciousness. Paired with giving birth is the risk of death; we face samsara with the emergence of each new human from our bodies at personal and intimate expense.

Look at the different reactions to the health care debate between the Catholic bishops and the Catholic nuns, or the recent excommunication of a nun by men of the church for assenting to another woman’s abortion. As if the threat of death which comes with the creative power of pregnancy isn’t enough challenge.

Here’s my big finish…I’ll tell you where I would look for God…

To find God, I think we have to examine the very fabric of existence. An atom is 99.999999% empty space. We are made of atoms that are made of mostly nothing, but still we exist, we are conscious, and part of being conscious is to yearn for a purpose greater than simply reproducing our genes. It’s in that space between the mostly nothing and our self-aware existence that we look for more, something intangible, and for lack of a better definition we may call it soul, or spirit, or life force, or simply consciousness. Is there one religion or philosophy that best represents that intangibility? Maybe, or maybe not. But science is the one approach that has the ability to actually look in that space. What will we find in microscopic bursts of energy as we collide proton beams? I don’t know, but it sure is exciting to be alive when it’s happening…

The Geography of Thought is one of the most interesting books I’ve ever read. Highly recommend.

Meanwhile…one idea I like is the Eastern religious concept that if you are unhappy here you are already in Hell; and if you are happy now, you are already in Heaven. Take your pick…

Thanks for inviting me to join you all. Excellent questions. What a great discussion!

Roger Nygard
http://www.The NatureOfExistence.com

Thank you Roger!

And thanks firepups!

new week it’s I NEED THAT RECORD with director Brendan Toller, bassist Mike Watt and collector/re-issue specialist Lee Joseph

Look forward to having you in theaters soon!

Thanks for joining us here, Roger. Congratulations on a stimulating, thought-provoking movie I look forward to adding to my collection.

And I can’t wait to see what’s next on your plate!

“. Women may see the nature and origin of existence differently, because our experience is different and shapes a different reality or state of consciousness.”

Most interesting.

A question I like is: How do you think the world view of the other sex differs from your own?

One thing I like about FDL is often you don’t know which sex is writing…makes for some surprises, lets me in on some of my prjudices.

That’s true, evolutionists do do that. Evolutionists, also, first assume the cosmos to be a mechanism before engaging a single thought. Is it any wonder their explanations leave so much about the human world just plain unanswered?

I’m referring to the “do the rain dance right” remark. That’s a common misconception about myths, my friend: that their primary function is to explain away the cosmos. As you may know, that’s only one of four (namely: 1) mystical; 2) cosmological; 3) sociological/religious/political; 4) developmental/psychological). The most important function is imparting a manner by which the individual may experience, as compared with merely knowing about, the tremendous mystery of being aware both our own mortality, as you say, and also of our own becoming.

I want to caution against conflating our science with myth. Myths didn’t arise as a means of technological control of nature so much as a way of harmonizing humanity with nature. With so little of your writing to go on, I don’t want to give the impression of prejudging your view of mythology. As you may know, my friend, myths don’t so much explain away phenomena as they convey a way of being human in the world.

Science is prosaic, myth is poetic. Using science to explain away myths distorts to death their original sense.

Science is a manner of analysing, of disassembling the indivisible, the better to predict and control events (most notably, human behavior). It functions by breaking apart the Multiverse into constituent parts, setting us up for thinking the divisions we impose actually exist, and then leaving us with the iatrogenic problem of putting back together what was never essentially divided to begin with.

Just because we assume the cosmos to be a Newtonian mechanism doesn’t mean it and us really are machines. That would make of us humans mere Newtonian voodoo dolls. Is that how you experience being human? I certainly hope not.

That, of course, is a vivid example of the power of myth, to shape our experience of being in the world, not just our knowledge about it.

Kirk Murphy is upstairs!
Memorial Day Memory Hole: After Israel Forgets “Exodus”, White House Forgets “Shores of Tripoli”. Will Obama Remember NATO?

I don’t expect we’ll find anything we don’t already have :-}

Why look outside? A Zen patriarch, Hakuin, says, “It’s like ice and water: apart from water, there is no ice; apart from our very selves, where do we seek the Buddha?”

Or, as I like to put it:

KNOCK-KNOCK
(who’s there?)
BUDDHA!
(buddha who?)
KNOW ! BUDDHA U!

Works just the same for any salvific figure.

KNOCK-KNOCK
(who’s there?)
GOD!
(god who?)
KNOW! GOD YOU!

Surely you jest, about “finding god?” I can’t believe anyone actually expects to find a “god particle.” God is a metaphor, not a fact, not a datum; the ultimate mystery of being is a reality to be experienced, not a question to be answered nor a particle to be isolated. That’s so last millenium! Please, tell me you don’t really expect to find a “god particle” or some such thing.

Yup, you have no idea how often I am referred to as “Mr. Rayne.” I suspect that because there aren’t a lot of women who write about some of the topics we cover in depth, that our gender is assumed.

I’ll recommend another book here with regard to explaining differences in experience — Changes of mind: A holonomic theory of the evolution of consciousness by Jenny Wade, SUNY. It cracked my head wide open about so many things.

If consciousness is defined as one’s perception of reality, and consciousness is emergent and fluid, we each of us experience a different universe (or multi-verse). Wade’s model demonstrates that healthy humans tend to follow a pattern of states as they mature, and that as adults, we tend to diverge into two primary states of consciousness. A good portion of us live in an achievement state, another good portion of us live in an affiliative state. The first is all about benchmarks and measures, the second one about connections and relationships. Granted, consciousness is fluid and we can move between these and other accessible states, but once in these states (and if entrenched) it’s more difficult to grasp the other’s perspective. If one experiences the universe as a vast network of interconnectedness and another experiences the universe as a linear, dualistic and deterministic, how do they find common ground?

I’ll let you figure out which is which in terms of gender.

Thank you for this fascinating conversation,Lisa. I’ve emailed our local indie theatre requesting they schedule it.

“the ultimate mystery of being is a reality to be experienced, not a question to be answered nor a particle to be isolated”; Roger wasn’t saying that (yeah,I came back) and the words ‘god particle’ are some physicists effort to explain to a reporter what they hope to gain from CERN.

You and I know what buddha said about ‘god’ ; let’s leave it there.

“But in the grey of the morning
My mind becomes confused
Between the dead and the sleeping
And the road that I must choose.”

Thanks, it’s always risky to go on just a few words.

You’re referring to the Higgs boson, I believe, yes? I’m far more convinced by the wave-particle duality approach. We’re both waves, and, when considered for brief enough periods, we’re particles. I’m both flowing through my life, and sitting here, tapping these keys. So, as I believe we’ve discussed before, we all are beings of light, the literal translation of bodhisattva, only some of us are more opaque to transcendence than others.

Simple, right? ;-}