[Welcome Professor Michelle Alexander, and Host Paul Street]
[As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
Michelle Alexander, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the age of Color Blindness
Early in her courageous and important book The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness (New York: New Press, 2010), Michelle Alexander offers a poignant reflection from the evening of November 4, 2008:
“As an African American woman, with three young children who will never know a world in which a black man could not be president of the United States, I was beyond thrilled on election night. Yet when I walked out of the election night party, full of hope and enthusiasm, I was immediately reminded of the harsh realities of the New Jim Crow. A black man was on his knees in the gutter, hands cuffed behind his back, as several polices officers stood around talking, joking, and ignoring his human existence. People poured out of the building: many stared for a moment at the black man cowering in the street, and then averted their gaze. What did the election of Barack Obama means for him?”
Good question. Consider the following cold facts from the officially “colorblind” United States, self-proclaimed homeland and headquarters of global “freedom”:
* The U.S. has by far and away the world’s highest incarceration rate (750 per 100,000, compared to 93 per 100,000 in, for example, Germany), “dwarfing the rates of nearly every developed country” and “surpassing those in highly repressive regimes like Russia, China, and Iran” (Michelle Alexander).
The people incarcerated and marked by prison histories and criminal records in the world’s leading penal state (the U.S.) are very disproportionately black and male:
* 1 in every 14 black U.S. black men was imprisoned in 2001, compared with 1 in 106 white men.
* 1 in 9 black men between the ages of 20 and 35 was behind bars in 2006 and a much larger percentage was under parole, probation or some other form of penal control.
* The U.S. incarcerates a larger share of its black population than did South Africa at the pinnacle of apartheid.
* In Washington D.C., home now to the nation’s first black president, 75 percent of young black men can expect to serve time in prisons. In the city’s poorest neighborhoods and across the many highly segregated black urban ghettoes that persist across (not-so) “post-racial” America, similar incarceration rates and expectations prevail and time behind bars has become “normative” for young black males in other predominantly black communities across the country.
* On any given day, nearly a third (30 percent) of black males ages 20 to 29 is under some form of correctional supervision.
* Blacks make up 12 percent of the overall U.S. population but account for more than 45 percent of the nation’s prisoners.
* One in three black U.S. adult males carries the lifelong mark of a felony record.
In The New Jim Crow, Michelle Alexander is not content merely to add the nation’s prison and the broader criminal justice system to the register of things that racial justice advocates need to talk about and act against. The problem goes deeper. “Mass incarceration – not attacks on affirmative action or lax civil rights enforcement – is,” she writes, “the single most damaging manifestation” of racial oppression in the U.S. today. It is no small or collateral problem. Seen as not merely imprisonment but as “the larger web of laws, rules, policies, and customs that control those labeled criminal both in and out of prison,” the “New Jim Crow” is “a new system of racialized social control” that “purports to be colorblind” even as it “creates and maintains racial hierarchy much as earlier systems of control did,” working to “ensure the subordinate status of a group defined largely by race.”
“‘New Jim Crow’ – is she serious? Didn’t we just elect a black man to the presidency?” I can almost hear and see my conservative relatives and no small number of my liberal campus-town neighbors asking these questions with incredulous looks on their faces. Can a nation that just put a black family in the White House really have a powerful new anti-black racial caste system?” Yes, it can, Alexander answers, arguing that we have no ended racial caste in the U.S.: we have redesigned it. To be sure, in the current era, it is no longer permissible to discriminate, exclude, and condemn people explicitly on the basis of race. Still, it is perfectly legal, common, and customary to discriminate against people with criminal records in nearly all the same ways that it once considered appropriate and lawful to discriminate against blacks. “Any candid observer of American racial history must acknowledge,” Alexander notes, “that racism is highly adaptable.” Racial cast has been killed and then reborn again in new forms throughout that history, she shows. In the current, officially (and deceptively) “colorblind” era (whose illusory post-racial gloss is naturally fed potently by the election of Obama), much of the core substance of the old discrimination – objectively racist bias in the job market, housing, finance, public welfare, voting rights and more – is born again and rendered legal and “normal” once millions of blacks are labeled as felons.
Alexander’s argument is deftly developed over six highly readable and richly informed chapters that: review the historical record of racialized social control in North American history from the colonial era through the present (Chapter 1); describe the fundamentally racist structure and operation of the officially “colorblind” contemporary U.S. drug war and mass imprisonment system (Chapters 2 and 3); detail how the new caste system operates on its black victims once they are released (on all too temporary a bases in many cases) from prison (Chapter 4); draw direct historical parallels between the old and the “new” Jim Crow (Chapter 5); and show how and why only a major new social movement (one that among other things “talks [candidly] about race” and “resists the temptation of colorblind advocacy”) can under the new caste order (Chapter 6).
Much to her credit, Ms. Alexander (herself a very successful black law professor and political commentator) understands the very big and real difference between the meaning of the Obama ascendancy (a symbolically powerful color-change in the nation’s and indeed the world’s top elective office) and what Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. called for again and again in the last years of his life: “the radical reconstruction of society itself” through a mass democratic social movement that transcended the quadrennial big money candidate- centered electoral extravaganzas that pass for the only politics that matter among many Americans today.
I have already gone past my 1000-word limit for this introduction. This is a shame for I could praise and reflect on this book practically at book length myself. I’ll save some further thoughts and questions for what I’m sure will be a lively and informative discussion.
_________________
Paul Street and the author of many articles and books, including The Empire’s New Clothes: Barack Obama in the Real World of Power (forthcoming this summer); Racial Oppression in the Global Metriopolis: A Living Black Chicago History and Barack Obama and the Future of American Politics . Street is a regular contributor to ZNet, Z Magazine and Black Agenda Report.



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Michelle, Welcome to the Lake.
Paul, Welcome back to the Lake and for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thank you for having me! I’m thrilled to be here.
Good afternoon Michelle and Paul and welcome to FDL this afternoon.
Michelle, I have not had an opportunity to read your book but do have a question and forgive me if this is answered prominently.
I think it’s fairly obvious to most reasonable observers that the 3 strikes laws AND the “war on drugs” have both contributed mightily to this situation. Is there any hope that the repeal of 3 strikes or de-criminalization can actually improve this incarceration affect is does it appear more likely that the powers would just find another reason to throw people of color into jail?
Hi Professor Alexander, welcome to the Lake — Will we reach that promised radically reconstructed society?
I had hoped we were making some kind of progress – but now I wonder
I have had problems with Internet access sorry. But looks like I’m in..
Yes, repeal of three strikes laws would help to reduce the size of the prison population, and it would eliminate much needless suffering of people behind bars, but it wouldn’t necessarily put a dent in this new racial caste system. This system depends on the prison label, not prison time.
Merely reducing sentence length, by itself,would not disturb the basic architecture of The New Jim Crow. So long as large numbers of African Americans continue to be arrested and labeled drug criminals, they will continue to be relegated to a permanent second-class status upon their release, no matter how much (or how little) time they spend behind bars.
Moreover, if we fail to overturn the racial consensus underlying this system of control – that poor people of color are essentially disposable – this system will morph into something new, even if significant reforms are won.
Michelle I’m curious to know what kind of response you’ve gotten with your book in the civil rights community..
We will reach that promised land only – only – if we build a mass movement that is multi-racial, multi-ethnic and firmly committed to the creation of compassionate society that values every human being no matter who they are or what they have done. It must be a human rights movement that includes poor whites – a group frequently pit against poor people of color, triggering the rise of successive new systems of control
Really basic question: Why are there so many black males in prison and jail and otherwise under criminal supervision and why do 1 in 3 black makes carry the lifelong mark of a felony record? How did this happen?
I haven’t yet read your book, Ms. Alexander, but i see lots of statistics listed iin the introduction. Are there statistics on the 25 and under incarcerees who were raised by single mothers, often with little education or employment prospects? How many of the under 25 year olds grew up with a strong father in the home?
Will the move in various (especially southern) states to restore voting rights and other rights to felons after they have completed their sentences, parole, etc. have much bearing here?
That will not remove the stigma from being a felon but at least restores the basic rights of citizenship.
So far the response has been positive. I wasn’t sure what the reception would be, since I argue that the civil rights community has been largely preoccupied with affirmative action and “clinging to the gains of the past” during an era in which millions of people of color have been rounded up for relatively minor, non-violent and drug related offenses and ushered into a permanent racial undercaste.
Ben Jealous, the new CEO of the NAACP endorsed the book and the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights hosted a book event in D.C. It’s not clear to me, though, whether the civil rights community will actually rise to the challenge I’ve described.
As a technical note, there is a “Reply” button in the lower right hand of each comment. Clicking the “Reply” pre-fills the commenter name and comment number being replied to.
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The mass incarceration of black fathers has decimated the black family. A black child born today has less of a chance of being raised by both parents than a black child born during slavery – a fact traceable in large part to mass incarceration and the branding of so many black men as felons. The media and much of our public discourse tends to treat the “missing black fathers” as a mystery or, worse, traceable to black men suddenly choosing to abandon their children.
But research shows that black fathers not living at home are actually more likely to keep in contact with their children than fathers of any other ethnic or racial group. Many of these men did not leave their families voluntarily. They were rounded up and taken away in handcuffs. And once released, they can be legally denied jobs, housing and public benefits – making it difficult and often impossible to contribute economically to a family.
The answer is the War on Drugs. The drug war is the single most important cause of the explosion in our prison population and the branding of millions of people of color as felons. Although people of color are no more likely than whites to use OR sell illegal drugs, the drug war has been waged almost exclusively in poor communities of color. Black men have been the primary targets.
Great interview..sorry I missed it from confused time zones (by me), but I enjoyed reading it after…
I’m white and I’ve been I have been stopped and cited for no seat belt twice in my life – both times were in Chicago’s south side black ghetto where the cops were basically just dragooning people using the seat belt thing as a pretext just to get into folks’ cars and find drugs. The second time the police officer apologized for pulling me over and explained the situation in no undertain terms. I guess this is not a comment not a questtion but what I’m getting at is this…this whole drug war and lockdown is really mainly about race, isn’t it….?
Thank you for that information. I asked because I worked as a juvenile probation officer in Appalachia and most of kids were white and living in single mother homes. Big families might have one wing that was functional and the other side that was dysfunctional. It was often obvious which kids would end up in my office. Generations worth. Hard as we tried (and we were social work oriented), we could not always overcome the problems of shortened educations and premature pregnancies with no father involved.
Hi, Michelle and Paul. Thanks for your time today.
I just ordered your book and will read it when I’m finished with Klarman’s From Jim Crow to Civil Rights.
It’s absolutely amazing how much has remained the same since Reconstruction from the obstructionism of the southern congress people to the arrogant disregard for the constitution and the very idea of a community of people coming together for common goals.
The thing that scares me the most is how much of our prison industry has been taken over by CCA, Wackenhut, and other private corrections corporations. When the bottom line is what matters most warehousing people and providing them with next to nothing in the way of rehabilitation just seems to be what you’re going to get.
Of course, disenfranchising lots of people who you never acknowledged as human in the first place is the name of the game.
Campaigns to restore voting rights are critically important. But it’s just the tip of the iceberg. Prisoners should be allowed to vote. In most Western democracies, prisoners are actually encouraged to vote.
Equally important, people convicted of felonies should be allowed to serve on juries. And people convicted of felonies should not face a lifetime of discrimination, scorn and social exclusion. Discrimination in employment, housing, education, and public benefits is perfectly legal once you’ve been branded a felon.
Prof. Alexander, thank you so much for this terrific work.
I apologize if this marketing question is a little off topic, but since you teach at Ohio State and the question concerns Canton, Ohio; perhaps the (dedicated and terrific) mods at FDL will permit it. Were you aware of what happened to the family of Minnesota Supreme Court Justice Alan Page, as they attempted to attend his Hall of Fame induction ceremony?
I only ask, because I thought in the football crazy midwest, such a story might be of marginal help in marketing the book.
Yes! The drug war is absolutely about race. From the outset the drug war had little to do with drug crime and nearly everything to do with racial politics. The drug war was part of the Republican Party’s grand strategy of using racially coded political appeals on issues of crime and welfare to appeal to poor and working class whites who were resentful of the Civil Rights Movement – especially busing, desegregation and affirmative action. Pollsters and political strategists found that by using racially coded “get tough” appeals they could get poor and working class white voters to defect from the Democratic Party. In the words of H. R. Haldeman, President Nixon’s former chief of staff: “The whole problem is really the blacks. The key is to devise a system that recognizes this while not appearing to.” Nixon coined the term “war on drugs.” And Reagan turned the rhetorical war into a literal war on the black community.
No, I don’t know about that story.
ok, I see you already went where I was going…
Here’s nother thing. I currently live in a state (Iowa) where white liberals are just besides themselves with pride over the fact that they played such a key role in making Barack Obama the first black president but where many of the same folks will just shrug when you tell them that that same state has the highest race disparity in terms of incarceration rates. How do both of these things happen at the same time? How can people be anti-racist enough to Caucus for and elect a Barack Obama and yet indifferent to the core problem at the heart of your book? How do we get a black president and a New Jim Crow at one and the same time? Is this a paradoox, a contradiction…or are there ways in can be said or shown to make make some kind of sense? How can can we square this circle?
it’s true that prisons are big business today. Lots of people now profit from prisons – private prisons as well as public prisons. Prison guard unions are the largest and most powerful political organizations in many states. They lobby for three strikes laws and harsh sentences for drug offenders – that’s job security for them.
But this new caste system did not emerge primarily because of a profit motive. This system emerged as part of a backlash against the Civil Rights Movement.
http://www.laweekly.com/2004-09-30/art-books/breathing-while-black/
During Jim Crow, individual black success was a threat to the prevailing system of control. Today, the opposite is true. The current caste system depends, in no small part, on black exceptionalism. Mass incarceration is predicated on the notion that an extraordinary number of African Americans (but not all) have freely chosen a life of crime and thus belong behind bars. A belief that all blacks belong in jail would be incompatible with the social consensus that we have moved “beyond race” and that race is no longer relevant. So we as a “colorblind” society need to have some black people doing well, ones we like. We therefore embrace certain types of black people — those who make whites comfortable and don’t challenge the status quo. Their success actually helps to rationalize the treatment of the rest.
Page grew up in Canton.
1988, NFL inducted Page into the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which is located in Canton. His family leaves their part of Canton to attend the induction ceremony. A Canton police officer pulled them over for driving while black. The family was understandably upset and I think most of them were taken to jail. I do not think they were officially arrested (maybe the arrests were voided), but that was only because of the pull of the NFL and Page’s fame. How many of them actually made it to the induction ceremony is unknown to me.
I apologize I cannot find a link. I know it happened and I strongly suspect Justice Page has documentation.
Yes, breathing while black is real, just like driving while black. Blackness has been crimininalized in our society, though upper-middle class blacks find they can often avoid it. That’s part of the reason Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates was so outraged when he was arrested in his own home. He thought that his education and social status should have bought him a different kind of treatment.
Thanks for sharing the story. Of course there are countless stories like that, and most people don’t have the resources to hire a good attorney and fight for their lives. Chapter 2 of my book, entitled “The Lockdown” describes how our criminal justice system actually works – as opposed to the image portrayed on shows like Law and Order. Most people don’t realize that thousands of people go to prison every year without ever meeting with an attorney, or meeting with one for only 10 minutes or so. People are processed through this system. The system has surprisingly little to do with justice.
Pretty sweeping. Having lived in an integrated community and raising my children there, I’m not sure. Do you have statistics on attitudes of younger white Americans? (And, yes, it is time for ‘the greatest generation’ to yield some power and control, and for their boomer kids to do the same.)
Ms. Alexander, bless you for writing this book. I’m white and my grandchildren (when they arrive) will be considered black. So i read your article in TruthOut with horror – all this had gone on under my radar, or the notice of my larger community. Well, I am now assiduously going to my town’s Council on Aging and educating them, starting with cannabis legalization – i hope to have them as a voting bloc next time cannabis is being voted on. (In March, during town election, a measure to punish cannabis more than state guidelines passed by 3 votes – i hadn’t done my homework, or I would have gotten out the vote earlier.)
edit for link = http://www.truthout.org/the-new-jim-crow-how-war-drugs-gave-birth-a-permanent-american-undercaste57462
Yes, I must say that among many of Obama’s white middle and upper middle class supporters I noticed that approving of Obama (a “good and safe” black” on the model of the Sidney Poitier character) was part and parcel of also and at the same time disapproving qutie heavily of the supposed “self-defeating behavior” of real local and poor black Americans It was also sometimes part of a class attitude toward poor and working class whites, who, they would tell you were too racist to Caucus or vote for a black candidate…They could not imagine that their working class white neighbor might have liked Jesee Jackson in 1988 and would be Caucusing for Edwards because he perceived Edwards to more pro-labor and more populist than Obama…but I am moving off topic- sorry!
Ever since the early 1980s (ironically around the same time the drug war kicked off), large majorities of white Americans have expressed strong support for antidiscrimination laws and have indicated they don’t see themselves as racist and don’t want to be racist. I’m definitely not arguing here that everyone involved in the criminal justice system – or who’s voted for “get tough” laws – is an old-fashioned bigot. No, to the contrary, what I argue is that our society suffers from racial indifference. There is a tremendous amount of indifference to the plight of ghetto youth and a willingness to believe the worst possible things about them. It is this racial indifference, I believe, that lies at the core of this new caste system. Martin Luther King, Jr. argued that is was racial indifference – not racial hostility – that supported slavery and Jim Crow. I think he’d find the same racial indifference supporting mass incarceration today.
This is not much help, but imho, as long we use terms such as white, it is game over.
Men who are 100% European-American run America. Initially, the Irish, the Jews (semitic people), the Italians, and the Eastern Europeans (pollacks), were not in the club. When people on blogs casually use the term white, I always like to ask them if Jessica Alba, Derek Jeter, and Alex Rodriguez qualify.
In Iowa and the rest of the Rust Belt, it is critical to be 100% European-American. Any dilution is seen as a serious minus.
I also try to substitute the word ethnicity for race. The Germans, French, Irish and the English knew all about ethnic hatred in Europe.
Hello Professor Alexander. I see in this salon you have suggested very good and concrete strategies for making progress and moving forward (permitting prisoners to vote, the development of an all inclusive mass movement, etc.) on civil rights. It seemed as if the nation — with the election of Barack Obama — had some momentum for moving forward on such matter with all the corporate media spin about a new ‘post-racial society’. In reality,however, what we’ve seen is a “backlash against the Civil Rights Movement” — as evidenced by the racism embedded in the Tea Party and their candidate of choice, Rand Paul (who recently called into question some aspects of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.) How would you explain the conflict between this “ripe moment” for advancing civil rights (via national mood and sentiment) with the reality of the emergence of the Tea Party racism and the candidacy of Rand Paul?
I’ve known a few white folks (some of my contemporaries and now increasingly young adult children of my contemporaries) who have in fact been taken down for drugs and felony-marked for life…with pretty bad consequences for their employalibility and housing and sanity and so on. The New Jim Crow’s stigma and penalties can happen to some degree to whites (though I must say that Martha Stewart had a pretty nice ex-offender experience); the old Jim Crow’s stigma did not happen to whites,right?
How/why is it a new Jim Crow and what are the limits of the old and new Jim Crow analogy?
Sorry to ask such a big question…
The other day I watched the movie “Blow” with Depp. I was amazed that here was this movie about the cocaine epidemic in LA and no black people in it. WTF?
The idea that ghetto youth have “chosen” their fate is one that is embraced in many circles, including in many black churches. There is a lot of finger wagging that goes on, yet relatively little recognition that black youth are being rounded up primarily for the same sorts of crimes that go ignored when committed by white youth on college campuses or in middle class suburbs.
Contrary to popular belief, this drug war has never been aimed at rooting out drug king pins or violent offenders. In 2005, for example, 4 out of 5 drug arrests were for simple possession and only 1 out of 5 were for sales. Most people in state prison for drug offenses have no history of violence or significant selling activity. And in the 1990s – the period of the greatest expansion of the drug war – nearly 80 percent of the increase in drug arrests was for marijuana possession, a drug less harmful than alcohol and tobacco and equally as prevalent in middle class white communities and college campuses as poor communities of color
But the drug war has been waged almost exclusively in ghetto communities. And the kids in those communities did not “choose” that. In some states, 80-90 percent of all drug offenders sent to prison have been African American.
Here is a link to the beginnings of prison for profit =
Chapter 9, Cornell Corrections
I recently read “Dark Alliance,” which spells out in pretty clear terms what the deal with the crack epidemic was.
Funny story about skin color;
My younger son called himself a black man and his lego men were black men because he and they wore black shirts. When i finally corrected him, he burst into tears, because he did not want to be a pink man.
I’ve been a paying member of MPP for a long time. They seem to be making some progress.
The drug war was declared with black folks in mind, but people of all colors are suffering now as a result. I argue in the book that white people harmed by the drug war can be considered “collateral damage” – they are not the real targets of this war, but their lives are being destroyed nonetheless.
And it’s also true that whites are harmed by the felon label, though studies show they are harmed far less. A white man with a prison record is more likely to be hired than an equally qualified black man WITHOUT a prison record. No one fares worse in the modern job market than a black man with a record.
Also, whites are able to “pass” far easier in this system than African Americans. People branded felonies try to “pass” by lying to employers and housing officials, and by lying about their criminal history to get food stamps. Whites are often successful in passing, because white people don’t “look like” criminals. African Americans, however, find they are treated like felons, even when they’re not.
I’ll get to the limits of the analogy in a moment -
Wow. The part after this,
Staggering corruption.
I have a lot of respect for Gary Webb’s work. He’s the author of the Dark Alliance. It’s unbelievable that he was fired from the San Jose Mercury News for his story exposing the relationship between the CIA and the emergence of crack cocaine in Los Angeles. His later suicide was tragic.
He was very foolish to think so. Find youself in “the wrong place at the wrong time” and you’re just another n****.
Thanks.
As I understand it, Strom Thurmond in the 1920s had a lot to do with the relative stopping of lynching that had been so common up until then. My guess is that Strom could have cared less about the lynching, but he knew that Americans such as Ida B. Wells and W.E.B. Dubois could use it to injure segregation and Jim Crow.
I have always thought that Malcolm X did not get enough credit. IMHO, his righteous and measured anger drove the establishment to embrace the heroic Dr. King. I bring it up, because I think it would be good for America if someone started getting some traction on the debt. Repaying the descendants of the slaves for what their ancestors never received. The descendants of Poles and Jews, who were enslaved by Hitler, did get some minor compensation in the 1990s, so I believe there is some legal precedent in international law. That kind of agitation, might help Congress move on the kinds of issues you have raised.
a bit from the Cornell Corrections link above =
Thank you.
They crushed him. Interesting tidbit: Alicia Sheppard, now ombudsman for NPR, was part of the cabal at San Jose Mercury News that ostracized Webb.
Oh, yeah. This is going to be a tough one – the ramifications are scary.
(edit for additional) That is why reigning in the drug war is so crucial – maybe this is the way we can bring these guys down.
I’m not a huge fan of reparations for slavery and/or Jim Crow mainly because it implies that racial caste is part of our racial history – not our racial present. I’d like to see reparations for mass incarceration, paid to the individuals who are currently suffering and their families. Reparations would be in the form of good schools, job creation, economic investment and an admission that mass incarceration in the United States would not exist but for our profound indifference to the suffering of black people.
In middle class suburbs when a white kid gets nabbed he or she is likely to have family support, legal support, counseling support to give reason that a jail sentence is unnecessary. Wouldn’t it help to try to strengthen the black community by encouraging deferred parenting and enhanced education? Are middle class black kids as likely to be encarcerated at inner city black kids? I suspect not.
Is the expungment of criminal records (enacted for some categories of ex-offenders in some states) much help for ex-offenders? How about these “certificfates of good conduct” and/or rehabilitation that they’ve also passed in some states (NY has that)? I helped get both things through in Illinois in 2003 and 2004 but I wonder how meaningful such reforms (especially in their current versions) are…
As for the limits to the analogy to Jim Crow, there are many. I point out in the book that if you were to create a list of the differences between slavery and Jim Crow, the list would likely be longer than the list of similarities. Both were racial caste systems, but their design and operation were vastly different. The same is true of mass incarceration and Jim Crow. Both function as racial caste systems, but there are many differences between them.
One of the most important is that Jim Crow created racial solidarity in the black community; mass incarceration, by contrast, has turned the black community against itself and shredded networks of mutual support.
My daughter (21) recently opined that some black and brown people (not the way she phrased it) have a chip on their shoulder about being down and out and deserving more. I tried to explain to her that, yeah, and for good reason. I cited some of the stats from Dr. Alexander’s book: the average worth of a young black woman compared to that of a young white woman, for instance. I asked her to think about how much pot smoking goes on in the dorms of her college and how those people don’t go to jail for it like the folks in the black communities. That gave her plenty to think about.
Another issue is that Americans who are 100% European-American think that the playing field has been level since 1865. They have no idea that there were two high schools in Florida in the 1920s that admitted students of both genders, who were not 100% European-American. They have no idea about the Colfax Massacre (1873), Tulsa 1921, Slavery by Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black People in America from the Civil War to World War II and a lot of other history that has been buried.
Yes, of course we should do everything we can to encourage girls in ghetto communities to defer parenthood until they are prepared to raise a child. But teenage pregnancies are actually at historical lows today. Teenage pregnancies are not driving mass incarceration. There is a war being waged in ghetto communities – a literal war. That’s what people fail to understand, I think. The explosion of our prison system isn’t due to crime rates. It’s not explained by broken families or poverty or all the other standard excuses trotted out for it.
If a drug war was being waged in middle class communities, we’d see stunning rates of middle class black kids being arrested and branded felons too. And we’d see a whole lot more white kids being arrested too.
So yes, we should absolutely improve schools, encourage youth to wait to adulthood before having children, and counsel kids to avoid drugs. We should do those things. But this new caste system has not been CAUSED by those things. It is the product of racial politics and a brutal drug war that itself has caused so many of the problems it is supposedly designed to solve.
Expunging records would be great – here is another one – dropping the ‘felon’ status, which takes away voting rights, student aide, etc.
Yeah, I mentioned Blackmon’s work to my daughter, too. It’s so hard to get kids to see what is invisible.
I cannot second this strongly enough.
I spend too much time on a Notre Dame football site and a lot of the subscribers are from the Roman Catholic state of Ohio. The level of intelligent, refined white supremacy is profound. So many want to ignore corporate welfare in the billions and Wall Street fleecing the taxpayers in the trillions.
But, when a woman of color is on welfare, that is a capital case and they all jump on the bandwagon without reservation.
I think your instinct is absolutely right. We should constantly remind ourselves and each other that we are all criminals. I recently wrote a piece for CNN.com’s series on the census entitled “I’m a criminal and you are too.” See http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/05/18/alexander.who.am.i/index.html. When we think of criminals we tend to think of “other people” — people who live in ghettos. But we’re all criminals. Obama has admitted to using lots of illegal drugs. What if he had been treated like a common criminal? What if he hadn’t been insulated by growing up in Hawaii and attending overwhelmingly white universities? What are the odds he’d be president of the United States? More likely he’d be cycling in and out of prison like most African American young men who have been branded felons for minor drug crimes and then unable to work in the legal economy, find housing, or even get food stamps. If Obama had been treated like a kid in the ghetto he might not even have the right to vote today.
The video that went viral about the SWAT team invading a Columbia, MO, house over weed – that got tons of attention because of the heartbreaking screaming of a dog wounded by gunshot. But the 7-year old who was shot and her father’s face rubbed in her blood didn’t get the same attention. We need to launch a conciousness-raising educational front on this.
Amen.
Michelle somewhere in your book you have a sub-heading saying “Obama – Promise and Peril” (or something like that). Please speak a little to the peril, which I think is very real for the cause of racial justice. I myself have heard many a fellow European American (I’ll go with BooRadley’s term) state quite clearly their belief that the president’s election means “we can put to rest all this nonsense abour racism in America.” This actually gets said and thought a fair amount in white America (there is a white America BTW, I hate to inform the prez)…Is that what you were getting at? (I still need to read that section!) or is it more?
But that little girl was so pretty, and her grandma’s sobbing was so pitiful: chokes me up just thinking about it again.
Well, everyone rushes to blame themselves, never dreaming there would be such evil people doing it on purpose for profit. I suspect once your book is more widely-read, the community will come together again – for it’s own protection.
The war you mention reminds me of the Warsaw Ghetto.
Yes, that’s another difference between mass incarceration and Jim Crow. During Jim Crow, the caste system was in your face. There were “whites only” signs hanging everywhere and black people were forced to sit at the back of the bus and attend separate schools. There was no denying the existence of the system. It was obvious.
But today, people who are put in prison are out of sight and out of mind. Most new prison construction has occurred in rural areas – many people never even see a prison in their daily routines. And when people return from prison, they are typically dumped back into the segregated ghettos from whence they came. It’s very easy to imagine that the system doesn’t exist and that black people are doing just fine. (I mean, don’t the black people at the mall look perfectly happy?)
To make matters worse, prisoners are excluded from unemployment and poverty statistics. They’re treated as though they don’t exist. Standard unemployment statistics for black unemployment underestimate true black unemployment by as much as 24 percentage points because the stats ignore all the black people behind bars! So poverty statistics and unemployment data mask a truly shocking racial reality.
btw, I know the prison guards get paid pretty well and it’s union work: but those guys have got to suffer too. There’s got to be a better way to make a living.
i’ve been rather weepy lately myself, including grief over the Gulf situation. Good to be among caring people, even if it is just a blog….
I think consciousness raising is absolutely the most important work that can be done today. It’s a necessary prerequisite to effective movement-building and political action. The desperate need for consciousness raising is why I wrote the book.
Even more twisted: the prison populations are counted at census as deserving representatives from those rural areas…even though they can’t vote. Isn’t that happening too?
Douglas Blackmon’s Book Salon
I am in strong agreement with this statement:
“I think consciousness raising is absolutely the most important work that can be done today. It’s a necessary prerequisite to effective movement-building and political action.”
I’m going to buy your book and take it to the COA – rabble rouse the old ladies home. They vote, they should vote with awareness!
Thing is, outside the Lake and Democracy Now, you don’t get much consciousness raising. Cable news and, worse, NPR – they’re just corporate mouthpieces. Did Ms. Alexander get any time on NPR? If so, good – but it tends to be just enough to inoculate NPR from criticism.
Actually, my argument about the promise and peril of Obama’s election is a bit different. I argue that on the one hand Obama’s election holds real promise because he’s condemned the drug war and mandatory sentences. He “gets it.” But on the other hand, the unique and concerning situation racial justice advocates now face is that the very people who are most oppressed by the current caste system – African Americans – may be the least likely to challenge it, now that Obama is in the White House. Do African Americans want to pressure the Obama administration on any issue, let alone issues of race? Could it be that many African Americans would actually prefer to ignore racial issues during Obama’s presidency, to help ensure him smooth sailing and a triumphant presidency, no matter how bad things are in the meantime? The fact that last question could plausibly be answered yes, is the real peril of the Obama presidency. His election masks the severity of racial inequality and actually demobilizes those who should seize the moment.
Great, now I’m going to get even less work done today!
Yes, it is! Rural counties housing large prisons get more legislators representing them, because prisoners are counted as part of the local population. Meanwhile, the ghetto communities from which prisoners typically come lose representatives because their population has declined. It’s the modern equivalent of the three-fifths clause, but worse.
Prof. Alexander, just by way of background, this community worked pretty hard to elect Congresswoman Donna Edwards in Maryland 4. Unfortunately, when the health care vote came around, Donna, like everyone else in the Tri-caucus, refused to hold out for the public option (when what we really needed was single payer).
The passion and the intelligence you bring to this is something a lot of our representatives in HEAVY Democratic districts need. These are REALLY safe Democratic districts, but, when it comes to voting on the kind of issue you have raised, they always find a way to cave. We call it catching the Rahm (Emanuel) flu.
Thank you!
Gaaa! The eternal quest for cheap labor. Now taking place in China where 10 have committed suicide in an Apple factory.
@ gordonot
I understand, but I agree with the notion that — for these times — “consciousness raising” must be the precursor to movement building and political action. I think “consciousness raising” IS the required action.
Social media seems to be at least a partial remedy to the damage done by the corporate media. (I understand the limitations and downfalls as well…yet it is an instrument we can use.)
I remember before the election, the anguish of black voters worried they may be setting Pres Obama up for assassination, God forbid. What dreadful insights into the American Way.
gordonot there is substantive discourse and analysis well to the left of NPR and MSNBC in numerous sites beyond ND and FDL…I’m a fan of both DN and FDL buty I really must mention ZNet, Z Magazine, CounterPunch, Truthdig, Dissident Voice, Monthly Review/MR Zine, AlterNet, Black Agenda Report, and much more….
It’s true that mainstream media is very reluctant to engage in truth telling, particularly with respect to issues like this. But my own view is that progressives and people most impacted by mass incarceration are actually the folks who most need to hear this message right now. There are so many myths about the drug war and the reasons our prison population has exploded – even among progressives and even among those in ghetto communities. If we don’t know the truth, and if we don’t have a real understanding of what’s happening and why, how can we expect to engage in effective action? How can we persuaded others of the truth, if we don’t really know it ourselves?
As I explain in the introduction to the book, I once believed many of the myths about our criminal justice system. And I once dismissed the idea that the drug war was a “new Jim Crow” as absurd. I know better now. And I believe the first order of business is making sure that all those who actually care about racial justice know better too.
Ok, how about some action we can take. Is there a list – or whatever – of non-violent drug users serving time in penitentiary? Could people like me befriend these folks and advocate for them somehow?
Well, as I describe in the book, Democrats have actually been much worse than Republicans when it comes to the drug war. It was Bill Clinton who escalated the drug war far beyond what his Republican predecessor ever dreamed possible. And it was Bill Clinton and the so-called “new Democrats” who pushed through laws barring drug felons from public housing (no matter how minor the offense) and barring drug felons from food stamps for the rest of their lives. Pregnant women, people with HIV and AIDS are barred even from receiving food stamps if they were caught with drugs and charged with a felony. Clinton, in his zeal to win over those so-called “white swing voters,” ramped up the drug war and “ended welfare as we knew it.” In my view, the movement that must be built has to fundamentally change the nature of our political system – not just get more Democrats in office.
[he’s condemned the drug war and mandatory sentences. He “gets it.”]
Hmmm……there is much he appears to “get” (verbalize) but doesn’t act on.
I have noticed a pattern in his speeches, which I have sorted out into thirds. The first 1/3 of so many of his speeches he often “frames” up the problem/topic/issue. He does this so well that it can appear to the listener that “he gets it”. But by the time he concludes and gets to the last third (speech conclusion) it is clear that he is not really acting in any way that is indicative of any “action” that he seemed to have “gotten” in the first 1/3 of his speech.
Prof. Alexander, I am over budget on books this month and had made up my mind not to purchase at this time. But, you and Paul have done such a superior job in this chat, I just bought via Amazon.
Collapsing into ethnic profiling, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has two reporters (Eugene Kane and James Causey) who might consider hosting a book chat with you. From my perspective, it makes sense for them, because newspapers are always looking for content. The Journal Sentinel just had a chat with David Maraniss, because his WHEN PRIDE STILL MATTERED, is being made into a Broadway play. The fact that you teach at a Big Ten school will not hurt.
The Drug Policy Alliance is doing great work advocating for reform of our drug laws. And Families Against Mandatory Minimums is doing great to end harsh mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenders. The stories are so tragic.
There’s also a campaign underway to Free the Scott Sisters. It’s not a drug case, but it’s a powerful illustration of how our criminal justice system functions primarily as a system of racial control, not crime control.
The Scott sisters were convicted in Mississippi of a robbery that netted less than $10 and resulted in no injuries. Neither of them have prior convictions. They were both sentenced to double life sentences! If you’re a member of Facebook, join the campaign to Free the Scott Sisters. Their story is not as unusual as you might think, but at least there is a campaign to free them.
Bullseye.
I want to put another link out here – concerning the fact that pregnant black women are incarcerated at an 800% rate because of ‘child abuse’ =
NORML – Does Marijuana really harm children
A study done in Jamaica 15 years ago yet ridiculed and ignored, and the woman who conducted the study belittled.
When I said Obama “gets it,” I didn’t mean to imply that he was planning to do anything about “it.” In fact, I’m pretty sure that intends to avoid race issues to the greatest extent possible. Knowing what’s right is different than doing right. I’m not sure his predecessor even knew what’s right; Obama knows the drug war is wrong, very wrong, but that doesn’t mean he’ll do anything about it. Unless he has to. That’s our job – to make Obama do what he knows he should.
True, that. Sadly, I think Obama has made it probable that no other black man will have a chance in hell to be a leader in this country during the rest of my lifetime. He just ain’t got it. I’ve often wondered what it would have been like had his mother lived. It would have been interesting to see her sitting with Mrs. Obama’s mother at events. Obama trotted out his elderly uncle at some point, but there didn’t seem to be any connection. If we hope to knock down the ‘war on drugs’ I think we’re going to have to do it without Obama.
Prof. Alexander, is there a leader out there against this insane ‘war on drugs’ that we can support?
It would be great if you could connect me to the reporters you know. I appreciate any and all efforts to help spread the word!
NPR was completely infiltrated in the days after 911 when Bush appointed someone (name escapes me now) who had just left the CIA to become director of NPR.
As an aside, here’s a thing from when I was a sergeant in Harlem in 1987. A young black police officer comes in with a black man, around 28-29, in cuffs. He fills out the paperwork for me to log it in and I ask why he brought the man in. The charge was discon and failure to obey the officer. The cop leads the man to the railing in the back of the precinct and I start logging in the collar. As I’m writing I notice that this isn’t a good arrest.
I called the officer to the desk and asked exactly what the discon consisted of. He said the man was sitting on the steps of a building and refused to move when told to do so. I then asked where this happened and the cop told me the address. I asked him to tell me where the defendant lived. He looked at his memo book, then looked at me, and told me the address. The guy had been arrested for sitting in front of his own building and refusing to move.
This was a black cop and a black arrestee. The man was released and he was driven home. Whether or not the cop was ever sued for that collar, i don’t know.
I think that the racism that has targeted Obama — the protest signs,racist images, guns at rallies, calls for violence, etc. — has resulted in solidifying black loyalty to Obama, no matter what, as blacks feel protective of Obama and fearful for his safety and well-being.
African Americans are better able to identify with these threats/experiences and — and this seems to deepen the protection and the loyalty to Obama making it less likely that blacks will challenge or question him on policy.
__________
Michelle Alexander wrote:
…African Americans – may be the least likely to challenge it, now that Obama is in the White House. Do African Americans want to pressure the Obama administration on any issue, let alone issues of race? Could it be that many African Americans would actually prefer to ignore racial issues during Obama’s presidency, to help ensure him smooth sailing and a triumphant presidency, no matter how bad things are in the meantime? The fact that last question could plausibly be answered yes, is the real peril of the Obama presidency. His election masks the severity of racial inequality and actually demobilizes those who should seize the moment.
@Michelle Thank you for the clarification.
It’s telling, I suppose, that your question “is there a leader out there we can support?” made me pause for a long while before responding. I guess it depends on what you mean by “leader.” Tell me what you mean.
I have been hearing quite a bit about Obama’s demobilizing impact in and on the black community – very distressing. For what its’ worth, here is an interesting message I received from a teacher of inner-city black students in the Cincinnati Public Schools (CPS) in February of 2009:
“Today, I asked a class for which I was subbing (high-school English students, about a dozen, all-black, at one of CPS’s actually nice high-school facilities) what they thought of Obama. Their initial reaction was one of, for lack of a better way to say it, pride and joy.”
“But upon closer inspection, this turned out to be a rather shallow sentiment. For when I asked them if they expected any real changes under Obama, they all said no.”
That may sound depressing but I think it could also be hopeful for it suggests that these kids had a deep down sense of the key difference between (A) electing an elite president (or mayor or governor) who happens to be black (if thoroughly enmeshed with the predominantly white corporate and imperial elite) and (B) undertaking a serious engagement with deeply entrenched social disparities and harsh institutional realities like TNJC. Only (B) carries serious promise of advancing racial equality…
Dr. Alexander, i have to leave,now. Thank you for being here, and more power to you.
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Michelle, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book.
Paul, Thank you for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Thanks all.
Thanks for your time. I look forward to reading your book.
Thanks, Paul.
Excellent Book Salon! I learned a lot and enjoyed the discussion. Thank you!
Thank you for sharing that story. During the Jim Crow era, black people were expected to step off the side walk when a white person walked by. Black were expected to defer to white authority, and make room for them at all times. Today, the routine humiliation of black people happens primarily through the regular contacts black people have with law enforcement. Many law students are shocked when they learn that in many ghetto communities, it’s expected that black men are supposed to just put their hands up and consent to be frisked whenever a cop car pulls up. It’s just routine. The way things are done. Questioning authority or resisting the ritual is treated like a crime.
I’d like to recognize a politician who may have some influence on putting a stop to the insanity of this ‘war on drugs’. Or a religious leader. Or anyone who might gain the public’s attention and then seriously try to put a stop to the madness. I voted for Obama, but he has disapointed me time and again, and I won’t invest any more ‘hope’ in him. I think the ‘war on ‘drugs’ is totally harmful, and I’d like to support someone who is working to put an end to it.
VERY well said.
Yes, I do consider that hopeful. And it’s wonderful that kind of conversation was happening in the classroom. I worry about the celebrations of Obama’s presidency in black communities and black schools without any critical dialogue. The question – what does this mean, really? – is powerful and important.
dakine01 is upstairs!
Memorial Day 2010
There are precious few politicians in Congress who have been courageous on these issues, but Gary Webb – a white senator from Virginia – has started a serious debate and dialogue, though I fear his commission to “study” mass incarceration will become an excuse for inaction while the issue is being “studied.” The chair of Judiciary Committee, John Conyers, has also been great on these issues. But I think there is a terrible vacuum of effective leadership. My own view is that change is going to have to happen from the ground-up.
Oh lord, by this standard we certainly are all criminals. At least, I am!
I’m shocked that Governor Barbour hasn’t pardoned them…not. But then Clinton pardoned Marc Rich and left this ladies in to rot.
Then there’s the free Mumia movement, which petition I’ve signed…though that seems so tiny.
Free the Scott Sisters
http://freethescottsisters.blogspot.com/
And thank you for having me!
All the best,
Michelle
Thank you for coming to the Lake and spending time with us — and for educating us!
I will email them a link to this chat.
They do not know me, but from their writings, imho, they are both good guys. If they do not respond, it probably has to do with their editors. They put up with a ton of refined white supremacy from the well educated wingnuts.
ekane at journalsentinel dot com
jcausey at journalsentinel dot com
A chat with them would be a much different chat than you have enjoyed here. My guess is it would be overrun with highly educated guys making thinly veiled white supremacist statements. Since you live in Columbus, I am sure you are very familiar with the type. Hopefully, there would also be a lot of other people on the chat, who would want to buy your book. Another bonus would be if they would want to do an on-camera interview with you. The newspaper owns the local NBC affiliate and a radio station. All three outlets might be able to use your content. If that happened, you could show that video to other big city dailies. That might lead to an appearance on Charlie Rose. Charlie is a rake, but imho, his producers are always looking for young, attractive, intelligent women.
Grit TV with Laura Flanders is a more liberal/progressive version of Charlie Rose. I would certainly ask your agent to try and book you with Laura.
Also, there is an outside chance that some of the legal reporters at the Journal Sentinel might be interested.
Since you are at Ohio State, I would ask Archie Grffin for help. He can open a lot of doors. If Archie calls someone and says, hey, as a favor to me, could you interview Michelle, it’s pretty tough for a lot of people to say no.
Yes, thank you for your work, Michelle Alexander!
i’m back and just wanted to supply a link to the 800% i mentioned above =
extra punishment for women, pregnant women, accusations of ‘child abuse’ even tho no evidence of harm to fetus.