Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchins, Sam Harris and their clubby ilk love to ramble on about destructive, unreasoned religious beliefs that enchain humanity in a continued dark age. It’s a mistake to blame human wonder at the mystery of it all rather than the blowhards of institutional religion who turn our wonder and worry to their own earthbound ends.
But as long as we’re going to examine the folly of unwarranted belief, let’s take on an unjustified faith too little challenged: the myth of Adam Smith’s invisible hand and the yet-to-be-seen miracles of the so-called free market. As the etymology of the word religion indicates, there is in it an aspiration to bind us together in love. The Myth of the GodMarket depends on sundering fellow-feeling and mutuality on the altar of greed. Its worldview is, in a word, ugly.
Amartya Sen, a Nobel prize-winner in economics, penned a recent essay that attempts to set the record straight with regard to Adam Smith. Sen’s work is to orthodox free-market economics what the Jesus Seminar is to Christianity. Sen looks to all of Smith’s writing and the historical record to pierce the veil of delusion surrounding the seminal thinker, just as the scholars of the Jesus Seminar searched the record for the emancipatory wisdom of the historical Jesus.
In case you can’t tell, I believe there is power in spiritual aspiration. Few tall tales are as dis-empowering as the myth of the GodMarket.
The claims of free-marketeers are so preposterous that it seems insane that any of its many victims would still believe its unwise tales. As with too many religious institutions, the tales are told by vested interests whose power and wealth depend upon a hoodwink and a nod.
Not only did Smith not make the outrageous claims for a free market, he also spoke eloquently about the dangers of unfettered self-interest and the affectionate bonds of sympathy that play a role in human fulfillment. The misinterpretation is a double-whammy. The free marketers convince us we’re all Hobbesian, selfish animals who would tear one another apart if not for their police actions – but then claim that in the marketplace, that selfishness somehow produces the best of all possible worlds for all concerned. They have us, going and coming.
Here’s how Sen put it:
The spirited attempt to see Smith as an advocate of pure capitalism, with complete reliance on the market mechanism guided by pure profit motive, is altogether misconceived. Smith never used the term “capitalism” (I have certainly not found an instance). More importantly, he was not aiming to be the great champion of the profit-based market mechanism, nor was he arguing against the importance of economic institutions other than the markets.
And,
Smith was convinced of the necessity of a well-functioning market economy, but not of its sufficiency. He argued powerfully against many false diagnoses of the terrible “commissions” of the market economy, and yet nowhere did he deny that the market economy yields important “omissions”. He rejected market-excluding interventions, but not market-including interventions aimed at doing those important things that the market may leave undone.
It is an undeniable fact that unregulated capitalism contains a trickle-up mechanism that sooner or later empties the pockets of the many into the goldpots of the wealthy few. If there is an invisible hand, it’s a dirty one that cares nothing for a fully human life, a survivable environment, or a free, healthy and educated citizenry.
I was lucky. I read Smith’s Theory of Moral Sentiments before I read his mostly misinterpreted Wealth of Nations. Moral Sentiments is a humanist work that addresses many subjects, including limits to the moral and practical worth of self-interest or self-love. Sen summarizes:
Beyond self-love, Smith discussed how the functioning of the economic system in general, and of the market in particular, can be helped enormously by other motives. There are two distinct propositions here. The first is one of epistemology, concerning the fact that human beings are not guided only by self-gain or even prudence. The second is one of practical reason, involving the claim that there are good ethical and practical grounds for encouraging motives other than self-interest, whether in the crude form of self-love or in the refined form of prudence. Indeed, Smith argues that while “prudence” was “of all virtues that which is most helpful to the individual”, “humanity, justice, generosity, and public spirit, are the qualities most useful to others”. These are two distinct points, and, unfortunately, a big part of modern economics gets both of them wrong in interpreting Smith.
The marketplace needs moral guardians. There is no such thing as a “free market” in the first place. There is no denying the benefits of open-exchange, though. Smith wanted to do away with feudal monopolies. He certainly did not want to empower a new feudalism.
No, we ought to be free to pursue a livelihood we find fulfilling. We ought to be able to trust our encounters in the marketplace. There is a logic to supply and demand, and competition for our interests and our dollars is a good thing.
But unguarded, unregulated capitalism has failed. Adam Smith never thought it would succeed in the first place.



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Americans love their many myths.
“…the myth of Adam Smith’s invisible hand…”
Now let’s not be too hasty. The hand does seem invisible to me…well, except for the middle finger, of course.
Another great piece, Mr. Smith. Thanks.
It’s hard to think of that hand without the middle finger coming to mind, isn’t it?
Well, we all love a good story. We can only hope that the invention of new ones gets us closer to truth….
Yup. Especially after that Goldman set-to before Congress the other day. To me, these guys acted like nothing so much as true sociopaths. I hate to suggest that this is the norm on WS, but it sure as hell looks that way from here.
And we can’t draw conclusions about human nature. I think it’s more the case that we afford moral standing to profit gained at any cost. If you make money, you are moral. It’s not that this has unleashed some latent dog-eat-dog nature, it’s learned behavior, learned within a culture of corruption.
Very nice post, Glenn. We have lost “the wonder of it all.” It’s all greed now. Are there any Adam Smiths on the horizon?
Another excellent post, Glenn. Thank you.
What to leave in, what to leave out. The dividing line between the aware, evolved, thinking person and the blind, mindless, destructive ideologue.
Economics seems to be moving in the right direction, scrapping the old rational actor and self-interest models for something a little more human. In fact, there are enough new insights into what human being is to fuel a New Enlightenment. Cultural inertia, however, is a powerful force. There are, of course, still flat-earthers.
Excellent piece. Thanks, Glenn.
The Buddhist concept of attachment is helpful, isn’t it? You know, you’re not even s’posed to get attached to enlightenment. We should look to the stories we tell and the discoveries we make as opening new vistas, not fencing them in. In fact, if we listen to scientists like Stuart Kauffman and theologians like John Shelby Spong, we discover that there’s something to the notion that creativity may itself be the ground of being. Fences then, like grasped-for ideologies, are the devil’s work.
Thankee, SouthernDragon.
Thanks for this post, a great one, as always. I’m glad to know I’m not the only one here reading books like the Jesus Seminar. Another good one is Episcopalian Biship John Shelby Spong, whose Jesus For The Non Religious strips away the myths and puts the Gospels into context to explore what was so compelling about the lessons Yeshua shared that people created the stories in the first place.
I’m reading a fascinating book right now called The Harlot By the Side of the Road by Jonathan Kirsh who writes
Yet, if we look deeply into the forbidden texts of the Bible, we will discover that men and women, clans and tribes, peoples and nations – despite their differences of race and faith – manage to tolerate each other, to share the earth with each other, and to encounter each other in peaceful and loving ways. It’s a liberating experience to discover what the Bible really says about the politics of sex, for example, as well as the politics of nations.
Glenn! I swear I posted my comment before I read your reference to Spong. Hmmmmmm. Serenpity?
“Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish caught will we realize we cannot eat money.”
~ Cree Indian Proverb
(Nor can we eat crude oil.)
I agree. It was a revelation.
True serendipity. I hope readers note your comment in full. It’s important, and multiple references to Spong and others can only help. Ah, the sympatico minds and hearts of the FDL community….
Somebody should carve that Creek proverb over the doors of Goldman Sachs.
That proverb gets right to the heart of it. Thanks for that comment.
@#18
How about carving it over the doors to BP,Halliburton, Congress and the Oval office,too, while we’re at it?
First, let me second Twain @19. The proverb really does get to the heart of it. Second, I agree about multiple entryways. For that matter, how ’bout on the dollar bill?
“It’s a mistake to blame human wonder at the mystery of it all…”
What mystery are you referring to? I think I’m with them and their clubby ilk on this one. There is no mystery other than the existence of belief itself.
Thank you, Glenn, for another excellent post.
Down with “blind faith” and this really ugly form of “free-market” Calvanism.
“For that matter, how ’bout on the dollar bill?”
You MIGHT get some friction from the “printers’ at the Federal Reserve on that one,Glenn. *G*
Well, if you’ve got it all figured out, please tell us! :)
I only hope you haven’t really lost your sense of wonder. We can’t explain consciousness, we can’t explain split photon action at a distance, we don’t know whither the universe, I still tremble before the very mystery of the self (what in hell do I mean by “I”?).
As I noted @11, the Buddhist notion of attachment gives a good direction. I don’t recommend panicked grasping after this belief or that. I do recommend a bit of humility and a lot of awe.
Maybe a Surgeon General’s warning?
Ah, ‘externalities’ like oil spills?
The ‘free market’ has no way of costing them, explaining them, or making anyone **but** the public pay.
I don’t think Adam Smith really grasped the whole problem of externalities. And the markets of Presbyterian Edinburgh are a far cry from the container ports and megacities of our Global Village today.
Today, Ferenghis rule the economy. That is not sustainable.
I think the old ways are still so powerful and so embedded that they’ll die trying to fend off change. But they’re so rigid and incapable of change it could be one hell of a ruckus when they collapse.
Thanks for a more in-depth look at Adam Smith. You have forced me to read both books now. It is so hard to be knowledgeable about everything, so it is hard to be prepared for every intentional and unintentional lie that is put forth to substantiate arguments that you know are incorrect.
Nice plug for the Jesus Seminar and a fine illustration of “the power of myth”. The Romans crucified, for examples, tens of thousands during their occupation of Palestine. Only a handful of victims were buried. Most were left to rot for weeks, in purposeful violation of the locals’ beliefs, as a demonstration of Roman power and the price of rebellion, and as an example pour encourager les autres.
Provincial Roman governors were a crude lot. Pilate stood out among them as crude and inept. He would have ordered without a thought the crucifixion of a lone peasant in Jerusalem during Passover about as readily as a Blackwater guard would fire on civilians in Baghdad in order to speed his armored SUV along its merry way. It is improbable that Pilate would have held a trial for a peasant troublemaker or deigned to bargain with those he occupied over the life of one criminal for another. Pilate would have felt as much guilt for those he punished as the CEO’s of Goldman or Enron felt for those who lost their shirts, their pensions or their jobs because of how they ran their companies.
Unrestrained, unregulated capitalism is about as harsh as the Roman occupation of Palestine, or the American occupation of, well, you name it. Capitalism sets up a false dichotomy and a false promise: You can be either the guy pounding the nail or the guy taking the pounding. If you pound hard enough, you, too, one day, might be among those who determine who gets pounded.
Restrained capitalism, restrained greed, can work wonders of mutual productivity in much the same way that stomach acid helps feed the world. But unrestrained, unrestricted, it can eat away the throat and tear away the bowels of society.
What restricts capitalism’s excesses is not simply the excesses of other capitalists. They can too readily conspire and turn their greed away from each other and toward their common targets. No, what restricts its excesses effectively is openness, notoriety, an effective and challenging press, and a capable government, which is no more than people acting collectively through those they task with administering to their common needs.
Economic activity disconnected from the earth and all the externalities, as you say, is a dangerous gambit. Money passes from fleshly hand to fleshly hand, but the myth has it that disembodied reason and amoral exchange is all. Thanks for the comment.
BearCountry, I think you can put a lot of trust in your intuitions.
I think it’s important to view the depredations of these sociopaths clearly. Obama is not the ‘president’ as people think of that term, and he is not invested in succeeding at anything other than keeping the neocon agenda moving forward. If he fails in part of that, it’s nothing to him, as are the American people. All he needs is progress in their plans, and they will have the next ‘president’ rep or dem to continue apace the erosion of our country. There is no vision, no desire for ‘better’ on Obama’s part, simply intent.
That’s very well said.
Isn’t the capacity to merely wonder about these things,and verbally communicate them,quite awe inspiring- in and of itself?
Man is the only creature that has the ability to reason and elucidate .
Isn’t that what elevates us above the beasts of the field…or is supposed to?
Forgive me if I misunderstood the point of this post. I read it as critical of the critics of religion. And of course I retain a sense of wonder at the as yet unexplained. But that’s entirely separate from religion and belief.
I do have faith. I have faith that humanity will one day no longer rely on the supernatural for explanations.
I couldn’t agree with ya more Glenn… Nice post by the way!!
Blindly following anything is plain lazy when there is so much to learn and wonder about… And Truly what is self?? We really don’t have the answer, but do have FAITH there are those who are looking for it!
We barely understand the major functions of the brain.
A “Complex” Theory of Consciousness
Content vs. intent.
Glenn, you once said you didn’t mind if we lifted up our Seminal Diaries on your Sunday Post.
I’ve posted one called Food Sunday: Where’s The Shrimp?
(thank you for your kindness.)
Adam Smith:
I have that posted both at work and at home. Speculators in real estate used to look at it and say I was naive. Used to.
I thought the film The Corporation did a good job of equating general corporate behavior with that of sociopaths.
It’s not about religion or the supernatural. It’s about us and what we can and should aspire to be. I think that we never needed the Bible to tell us how to behave. I believe that there is something inside each of us that tells us right from wrong and how we should treat our fellow creatures. The “wonder” is at our existence and where we go from here. Will we degenerate into savages? It’s not impossible.
glenn, i’m sorry i’m late to your thread. but maybe it’s for the best if you do see my comment because while it relates exactly to your post, it’s also OT: i was trying to find an email addy for you (but did not see one) becausei have a question i hope you can help me with (actually you are the only one i can think of who might). if you are willing, would you email me at gmail dot com or use the contact form on my website if that is more convenient?
thanks and my apologies for going OT on your excellent and important thread.
I am a little critical of the redundant atheists, though I fully endorse their honest explorations (when they are honest). My fear is they drain the color from our lives and the universe. If we can’t count it, if a computer can’t compute it, it is called supernatural and its relevance disputed. Lost is the mystery of how you and I can communicate at all, a sacred thing if ever there was one.
My only disagreement with you really was that the mystery of belief was the only remaining mystery. There are, I think, an infinite array of mysteries, and we run the risk of losing the ability to know at all when we come to believe we know it all.
These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert, to fleece the people.
Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) Politician. President of the United States.
Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) British logician and philosopher.
Your point about the misinterpretation of Adam Smith is excellent and too often ignored. David Brooks, in contrast, spreads misinterpretations of Smith (and Burke) as if he were Typhoid Mary working in a hospital ward. I did not read your essay as anti-religion or as against the critics of religion. I read it as a reminder that we ought not to promote our beliefs, many based on myths, at the expense of reality and the well-being of those we live among.
Others should post their work in comments as well. This is a place to exchange ideas, and there’s no reason to short them. Here’s the link to your diary again. Where’s the Shrimp?
And Lincoln was a former lawyer who defended railroads – his age’s corporate titans – from liability for their worst excesses.
Lost is the mystery of how you and I can communicate at all, a sacred thing if ever there was one.
THIS is what I refer to as our divine inheritance-the ability to speak,write,create law, communicate with verbal and written symbols.
No other creature has been imbued with this ability.
That certainly would have provided him with a sound basis for the quote above,.
David Brooks is dangerous, because he often poses as far more broad-minded than he actually is. He’s virtually captured a monopoly on columnizing about new discoveries regarding cognition and empathy, for instance. But he’s misrepresennting those ideas.
greed is a disease, it should be treated as one.
the striking thing about today’s plutocrats (which shouldn’t be in the least surprising because its exactly the same as yesterdays’ plutocrats) is that no amount of wealth and power is ever enough for them. Their greed is clearly a psychotic, psychopathic ailment. They are unquestionably mentally deranged people that should be undergoing professional evaluation for their disease, rather than being the power brokers and main influencers of the society.
Refusing to believe supernatural explanations is not the same as believing we know it all. I suspect we will never know it all. But that’s what makes life interesting — continuous striving for understanding. When you accept the supernatural you’re no longer searching, you think you’ve found it.
I agree with you about that, although I myself treat the supernatural the way I treat a good story: suspending my disbelief may open doors to a new understanding of the natural. Today’s science is, after all, yesterday’s magic.
Exactly right. They are hungry ghosts, their desire driving itself and never sated.
Precisely. Lincoln was speaking from experience, as was Smith, who would have rubbed shoulders with some of the wealthiest men in Edinburgh and London.
During Smith’s late 18th century, the myths would have been about the benefits of colonial Christian rule for those poor natives in the Caribbean and India. Smith understood the reality of how money was made, how many of the lovely Georgian facades in Edinburgh and London and on estates in Lothian and Berkshire were often built on the proceeds from slave labor, sharp practice and sometimes death.
‘High five’ for this one.
I’m reminded of an ad in Adbusters from a number of years ago:
http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/offtopic-mammon-as-a-spiritual-provider/
Greed is as endemic as kindness, love and hate. It’s a package deal, which is why intelligent restraints are needed to keep excesses in check. Many of the ones we have now have no longer work. That’s why so many accept state torture in America and Wall Street’s right to ruin the rest of us in order to enjoy the excesses Manhattan has to offer and the thrill of getting away with it. That said, I’m no puritan; I prefer balance and proportion.
Suspension of disbelief as a tool for finding new ways to look at the unexplained is an interesting concept. Has it ever worked for you? An example would be helpful.
“I want to know God’s thoughts; the rest are details.”
Well, reading Shakespeare (from whence the quote), for instance.
“Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.”
or for those of us that are blessed to work with Calculus (or condemned, it’s all relative) :
“God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically.”
Glen, sorry to digress and be OT. I just really enjoy some of the Man’s Quotes.
Once upon a time in some circles, reviewing all the ramifications of one’s individual and collective action and the attendant effects upon on what we call “the environment” and the next seven generations of people (I call it living by the “1,000 year” plan) was par for the course. Clearly, some folks in the prior 10 years made some decisions that have negative consequences on the order of geologic time without consultation with the rest of us. I posit that our continued survival means that the collective cannot even tolerate this type of “leadership” any more. Case-in-point: “Oil slick the size of Puerto Rico.”
Thanks. That’s a good example. I’d misunderstood your point.
Why the gratuitous atheist bashing? It distracts from the point, and mars the post.
If you think religion is necessary to have a sense of wonder, you haven’t really understood scientists at all.
Funny, I think pretty much the same thing when I see visuals of the burnished,baronial images of Wall Street exteriors- also of the White House.
Casino capitalism wasn’t built upon the “winnings” of the plebians.
Thanks for the essay and the links.
Any reading of history/economic history demonstrates that capitalism always succeeds – or always fails, depending on your perspective.
From the tulip craze to the housing bubble, capitalists always succeed at convincing the suckers of their probity and wisdom long enough to separate them from whatever small amounts of capital they have managed to accumulate. When the cyclical collapse inevitably arrives, the vast majority succeed in feigning stunned surprise and escape the consequences of their villainy with their freedom and the bulk of their fortunes intact.
As a great leveler, it always fails (unless government intervenes in the interest of fairness with tons of the regulations that businessmen love to piss and moan about.) Unregulated capitalism inevitably produces environmental and human rights disaster. Capitalism has been around for a ling time and history records no exception to these rules.
As an instrument for economic stability, it is laughably inept, producing only a repeated boom and bust cycle that is inherent to the beast. Again, history records no exception to this rule.
This is really the meat of it. A false or misleading idea is troubling. But one that convinces us that we have no power is infinite worse. We can be our own worst enemy if we are not attuned to this danger.
Thanks for the reminder.
PS: When you hear the word “boom”, look for the bust; it is inevitable.
You will hear repeatedly that “this time is different.” Ignore that. People who dare to rain on the booming parade will be ridiculed and marginalized. Listen to them.
Individuals failing to learn from history are doomed to have their bones picked clean by the capitalist vultures.
As Keynes aptly put it,
I think the same applies to misleading myths about capitalism: given enough time or vagueness, any “cause”, including the wonders of unrestrained capitalism, can be claimed as the principal source of purposeful success.
A related simile Stephen Jay Gould was fond of was the lottery winner claiming he was destined to beat the 175 million to one odds and win because god/fate/one’s mother-in-law had ordained it. The accuracy of that prediction would require the lottery winner to make that claim when he was only a ticket holder, and not yet the winner.
And the power of cultural narratives can be so overwhelming. Emerson’s great cry, that we should “pierce this rotten diction and attach words again to visible thing,” comes to mind. I don’t read it literally. I read it as reminding us of the need for constant challenge and self-reflection. “Common Sense” can be and usually is a trap.
You ask a fair question, although it is nearly impossible to feel guilty bashing Christopher Hitchins for anything. Anyway, I was making the point that if unjustified beliefs are going to be attacked — and lately there’s been a very lucrative market for religion-bashers — we ought get to a myth I think is destructive at its core.
Stuart Kauffman, a biologist, has written masterfully about science and the sacred, and I think the sense of wonder behind science is real, is heartening, and is absolutely necessary to human flourishing.
You said it. Imagine where we would be if journalists did not feel it was their duty to be the arbiters of common sense and seriousness.
I could not find this quote before, but it is worth repeating here.
Common Sense is one of the most uncommon human attributes as it means something different to everyone.
Who Are We? Experiments Suggest You’re Not Who You Think
Food for thought!!
Capitalism is the only answer.
Simply put, this is a NECESSARY condition for all the benefits claimed for capitalism and competitive markets. The government’s role is to ensure trust in the marketplace.
GS has become the poster child for lack of trust. The folks that Barry calls “savvy businessman” cannot be trusted.
A fully independent consumer protection agency with broad oversight is the starting point.
This is the writing of someone who doesn’t bother with reason. How ironic that this is the sort of writing you accuse these people of. Find a quote from any of these folks that states that we’re in a dark age.
They have all pointed out rather numerous times where people switch off their minds for the sake of their religions. You are providing another example.
Once again, to the degree that writers such as these challenge us, they provide a benefit. But I think their endeavor is a bit passe, even a bit misguided. Their hyper-rationalism and atheism are ideologies and beliefs requiring leaps of unjustified faith of their own. Still, I’m not criticizing them so much in the piece as using them to pivot to the examination of another belief system.
It is hard for me to switch off my mind for the sake of my religion, because I don’t follow a particular religion, though I have from time to time described myself as a Southern Buddhist.
Forty-two.
Stridency about an knowable position is what seems irrational. Some of Dawkins’ beliefs about god are as strident as his scientific disagreements with his bete noir, Stephen Jay Gould, though he is also prone to being misquoted by a press out to mock his religious views. A recent example is the claim in some English papers over Dawkins wanting to arrest the pope at his forthcoming visit, over the Catholic church’s global sex abuse scandal. That’s not what he advocated.
Dawkins’ stridency puts him at the center of attention rather than his argument and leaves no room for one to agree with him, only to follow him. He, Hitchens is a lost cause, I fear, would be more persuasive, and less subject to caricature, if he were less strident.
A lot of otherwise intelligent people buy into the notion of the “unfettered free market” as the sop to all ills. Some that I know are religious in a very cultish, nutty way, and some are atheists. The people that I know who most bow down to the notion of the “unfettered free market” solving all of society’s ills ad problems, are typcially rightwing and tend to listen to rightwing radio and watch Fox for their “newz.”
I have nothing else to add, except that this has been my experience.
I have limited reading of Adam Smith but have read some. I now sit on the fence in terms of religious beliefs. However, life experiences have led me to the conclusion that the “unfettered free market” generally only inures to the benefit of the one percenter obscenely wealthy who are parasites on the rest of us. The market rarely, if ever, operates in an “unfettered” fashion, imo. It’s totally fettered by those at the top who manipulate it for their enhancement.
A prior post spoke about the inevitability of boom and bust cycles, and this ties into that. We all know now (and some of us always suspected) that this recent economic crash was a huge boom to some, who laughed all the way to the bank.
It’s only by enlightened regulation that the “average person” can gain some protection against the avaricious plundering greed of the sociopaths and narcissists at the top, who (as yet another prior post pointed out) never, ever have “enough.”
Interesting post and commentary with some good links. Adam Smith is worth a return visit, but must say that I never “bought” the hype.
“Hyper-rationalism”? Since when is it overly rational to apply skeptical reasoning to any assertion? To me, that’s switching off your mind for religion. Simply saying you can’t possibly know something is a sign that it either is a meaningless statement, or it’s been uttered by someone who hasn’t bothered to examine it carefully.
Absolutely. Also because, by definition, common sense seems to be something that does not need to be defended.
“Stridency” is such a loaded term that I don’t even know how to address it. Dawkins, et. al., have addressed assertions made about religion and about atheism. For my part, I’m glad they did. Anyone who takes the time to actually read or listen to what they say and think about it will at least have an understanding of why we think that way.
My only choice is to follow? I’m really torn between finding that statement condescending or clueless. I’ve never been inclined to either join or follow people. I’m just happy to find people who agree with me every once in a while.
I guess I’ll go with clueless for now.
“I have from time to time described myself as a Southern Buddhist”
Ignoring the Religion/Atheism discussion: I use “Druid (Reformed) – If we can’t find a tree handy, shrubs work.”
On the topic of Adam Smith all I can say is that so few people that quote the “Invisible Hand” argument have ever actually read Wealth of Nations that you really can’t have a sensible discussion with them. I have in the past provided direct quotes from Smith and had people deny that was his statement. It’s not what they learned about his work in their Chicago School economics class.
I’m not certain what it is that angers you — or at least puts a kind of strident, accusatory tone to your comments. I simply find a little too much of the know-it-all in the debunkers. I am well of aware of the damage done to life by those who cling to unwarranted beliefts, or should I say by those who exploit this all-too-human habit.
But here’s the thing, to imagine ourselves above it all, to deny the unknowable or write off wonder as irrelevant, I think is a mistake. Because self-consciousness is a mystery, and creative efforts to address it can also add beauty to our life.
Years ago there was a movie called Ice Man, about the discovery and thawing of a 10,000 year old man. They lifted the ice man with a white helicopter. A friend said, “They’d never use a white helicopter in the arctic.” That’s probably true. But this was a story about thawing and bringing back to life a 10,000 year old man. The movie was pretty good, it raised questions about what it means to be human. You didn’t have to believe you could bring a 10,000 year old man to life to have some new doorways opened. To me, some of the debunkers are a lot like my friend who complained about the white helicopter. And they want to be praised for their intellectual courage, which, at least, my friend didn’t ask.
Both my hands are quite visible.
Thank you. Ignoring the fact that Adam Smith penned The Theory of Moral Sentiments as well a An Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations is in the same spirit as saddling Charles Darwin’s reputation with the words of Herbert Spencer (“nature red in tooth and claw”).
Strident is loaded? Slightly pejorative, as in lacking in proportion, perhaps, but not loaded. Condescending? Certainly not about Dawkins, about Hitchens, sure. Harris I’ve never read. Clueless I’ll leave to you.
Hitchens often goes too far, Dawkins, with more street cred, occasionally does, but is often taken out of context or simply lied about. That they dare speak the irreligion that dare not speak its name – see how fast declaring one is an atheist is to declare oneself unSerious as a contender for high office in business or politics – is a good thing. We agree about that. But one’s belief about religion needn’t be a bar to being neighborly, at least among progressives. Among fundamentalists, it is the kiss of death.
So nicely said earlofhuntingdon (my greatgrandfather’s family descends from Huntingdon)
I want to echo Glenn’s recommendation of Stuart Kauffman’s writing. I thought Reinventing the Sacred was excellent.
I think it’s obvious from this ignorant comment that you haven’t read Dawkins’, Hitchens’ and Harris’ books all that closely (or at all), but nice straw man there. Perhaps your touchiness and defensiveness about the subject reveals a bit more insecurity about your own fear of challenging the religious zealots you condemn?
Your comment simply makes no sense to me. Sorry. I have read those authors. I think their puncturing of magic thinking is beneficial. I think their insistence that there’s only one true way to look at the world — their way — reminds me of those they criticize.
And I have no idea why in an exchange of ideas you feel it necessary to get so negative and personal. I’m sorry for that too.
Yeah, much of what is quoted today isn’t even Smith. If anything it’s Ricardo. Ricardo bent and/or replaced Smiths work for the benefit of the British East India Company. Ricardo should be credited as the father of modern neoliberal economics. Although “discredited” might be a better term.
I believe this is what happens when you don’t make any attempt to understand the other side of arguments.
I am fairly unaware of any free market supporter of the intellectual type that doesn’t understand that Adam Smith did not support unfettered free markets, rather he simply pointed out how blind self-interest can lead to favorable outcomes. This is a basic economic truth that no economist will deny.
Believers in the free market simply take Adam Smith as a contributer but not as gospel truth. Why don’t you trace the economic arguments through Smith, Ricardo, Say, Menger, Mises, and Hayek and then provide an argument against free market models?
I’m unsure where the free market has been allowed to function in a way that might even bring about a real economic freedom. Your insistence that it has causes me to think that your faith in our “moral guardians” is far more analogous to religious faith than those who believe in free markets.
Who is the more religious of the two: Me, who places faith in logical economic rules that may break down within complex economic activity, or you, who places faith in the benevolence of moral guardians who must be there to look out for us?
You project your own ignorance of political economy on to free market supporters and then use that strawman to insult them as faith-based ideologues.
Count me as one who believes in the free market solution over the government solution in almost every case, and who doesn’t watch Fox News (or any TV in general). I’m even a daily reader of FDL.
And you are correct that the market never acts in an unfettered manner. The top of the heap always coordinates to enrich itself. This is why I don’t get the arguments for “moral guardians”. If those who have political power use it to benefit themselves, how would giving that political class greater economic power possible sound like a good idea?
Well, they are faith-based ideologues.
Do you mean the tea partiers or the Nobel Prize winners?