Question: What is the difference between Lloyd Blankfein and Aunt Toby?
Answer: Aunt Toby has a septic system to make sure that her shit doesn’t hurt anyone else. Blankfein, on the other hand, couldn’t care less.
Rim shot.
Septic systems (in the Miller Analogies format) are to homes not reachable by muni sewer what sewage treatment plants are to municipalities. That’s right – when you live in the country, you have a legal obligation to treat and dispose of the ‘faire pee-pee” and ‘faire ca-ca” in a manner so that people who are next to or down-slope from you are not harmed. That is, their water supplies are not contaminated and their noses are not offended.
And you thought living in the country was cheap.
On a ‘boil it down to the basics’ standpoint, a septic system (or household sewage treatment system, if you prefer) consists of:
1) A way to get the stuff from your home (which is known in the trade as ‘black water’ out of the house. That’s usually a black iron pipe that leaves the house, pitched at a downward slope (and no, I don’t know how many degrees; just take my word for it – it goes DOWN).
2) A holding tank of one or more chambers installed under the surface of the ground that allows, mmm, the solids to follow gravity and decompose under the action of anaerobic bacteria. The liquids at the top are discharged out to another treatment system, either through gravity fed pipes (the so called ‘tile field’) or using other treatment systems (oxygenation treatments, sand filters with a pump station and so on).
3) Ultimate filtration system where the liquid effluent is allowed to pass through either soil or a combination of sand, soil, gravel etc. , through a series of pipes.
(there are going to be people who will say, “Aunt Toby, in my area there are people who use ‘septic ponds’ or ‘lagoons’. That’s true and in large agricultural operations, that is a fairly common, though noxious, manner of dealing with the problem. In my area, these are now illegal due to safety reasons)
Things I have learned about septic systems through bitter, bitter experience:
1) If you have a home built before about 1960 and the septic system has not been replaced, you undoubtedly have a steel tank, which will be full of holes and leaking untreated materials all over the place, which is why the grass is soooo green over your tank and tile field and the ditch in front of your house stinks. The standard now is a concrete tank with a multi-chambered insert.
2) If you have a sand filter and pump station system, you can absolutely count on the pump and the alarm on the pump to go toes up once every 5-10 years. Make sure when the pump and alarm are put into your system that they get a licensed electrician to put it in. Also, no matter how long they tell you a sand filter lasts – it will undoubtedly seize up and stop working properly 1-2 years before the deadline.
3) Make friends with your county health department. It does not pay to try to bluster, threaten or have some sort of ‘we don’t need no stinkin’ badges’ confrontation with the sanitary engineers. They have the law on their side and you have a moral as well as legal obligation not to be a public health hazard.
4) If you need to dig a new well on your property, you are going to need to be at least 50 feet away from the tile field and hopefully uphill from that facility as well. Beware of buying property in the country where there are older homes which are now selling off small chunks of property for suburban homes. You might find that you have someone else’s well in your front yard and no place to put YOUR well or septic. We have two areas in our county that had this problem and the county had to build muni water and sewer out to both them because EVERYONE’S well was contaminated.
5) Don’t put anything down a toilet or sink that will kill bacteria. I realize that the little buggers in the septic tank are ‘out of sight/out of mind’ but believe me, they do NOT appreciate being plied with chlorine bleach, chlorinated cleansers, drain cleaner, or oven cleaner. Trust me on this one.
6) You will have to clean out the septic tank on a regular basis. Again, trust me on this one. What’s supposed to go out those pipes to the tile field or the sand filter is liquid. Just liquid. If you don’t call the removal guys to empty out the tank on a regular basis – the recommended period is every three years – the solids will be high enough in the tank to start going out the pipes, which will block up the pipes and cause the tile field or sand filter to fail. Just because you haven’t gotten an angry call from your neighbor does not mean your septic system is running properly. Think of it like changing the filters on your furnace – put a tickler note on the fridge for the next time you will need it and then put it on the calendar when that year comes around. It’s worth it.
(photo courtesy of pigdump)



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Evening, everyone and welcome to Introduction to Sanitary Engineering.:)
You should play the Catskills!
Seriously, the topic of leach lines came up just the other day.
What would you use instead? I never thought of this.
What you use instead is stuff like vinegar and muscle.
Wow, how wonderfully appropriate given the discussion at the end of the recent thread about the oil spill and who’s responsible for the cleanliness of the world. Thanks!
Yep; everyone should take care of their own mess and make sure that no one else gets hurt or sick. That’s the correct thing to do. On the other hand, I can get arrested if the health dept decides that I’m endangering my neighbors but BP can endanger the entire Gulf. Hey, Supreme court…if BP is ‘person’, can they be arrested, too, now?
I have a friend who lives next door to a large Catholic church and after years of Catholic shit overflow into her property and denial from the Catholics, the county finally came out and shut them down until they can keep their sewage contained. It literally took YEARS for the county to believe the inundated residents had a true health complaint because the Catholics just kept playing the victim.
No one wants to go up against the Catholic Church’s shit.
Support your local sewage and septic man–your business is his business.
It’s many times hard to get authorities to pay attention to what they consider to be ‘your personal little complaints’. We have an ongoing case here locally where people finally started talking to one another about all the birth defects and cancer in one area surrounding where an old IBM plant was. The local authorities did not take it really seriously until the state health dept. came in and actually did studies and pronounced it to be a cancer cluster. IBM was forced to install venting systems in practically every home for about a half mile in every direction from their plant. It all came out that people were just dumping stuff down drains.
hahahaha…absolutely.
Somebody is sooner or later going to say ‘shit’, there, that’s done.
hahahahahaha
great post toby — i had septic at the cabin and was nodding my head yup yup yup on each of your points.
Actually, I’m hoping our contractor (sigh, we are as lazy as the rest – so our sand filter is now buggered) can negotiate something with the health dept. that won’t require us to tear up everything from the house out. If I thought they’d allow us to use composting or electric toilets, I’d do it.
Oh, Margaret you teach me to read all the comments before posting
“4) If you need to dig a new well on your property, you are going to need to be at least 50 feet away from the tile field and hopefully uphill from that facility as well.” I have run into a 100-foot rule in both California and Oregon.
“Beware of buying property in the country where there are older homes which are now selling off small chunks of property for suburban homes. You might find that you have someone else’s well in your front yard and no place to put YOUR well or septic. We have two areas in our county that had this problem and the county had to build muni water and sewer out to both them because EVERYONE’S well was contaminated.” Or on the other hand, the county might not “have” to do anything, and someone might be stuck with an undevelopable parcel. In addition to fraudulent, illegal, or unethical sale by the “older home,” so to speak, either the planning department is playing fast and loose, or the regulations leave something to be desired.
This is a goldmine business to be in, I take it.
Sigh..sometimes you have a place that originally was totally rural and everyone had their own well and septic. And then the city starts to push out and people who ordinarily would be on muni water and sewer now want to build at the edge of things. And if you have sellers who do things like ‘private placement’ (they hold the mortgage so there is no bank ordering a well and septic test etc.), then things can get, as you say, ‘fast and loose’ until kids start to get sick and call the health dept. And then everyone gets rounded up and has well and septic tests and there’s blue dye all over the place and then it’s a case of ‘holy shit’. for real.
These guys really know their shit.
Lordy. My house is almost ten years old with no septic pumping. Think it’s time?
Well, if you are in a place where the average age of ‘not on muni water and sewer’ housing is prior to 1950, it’s practically like printing your own money. We had to have our septic tank removed..and there were so many holes in it (steel tank; put in 1939), and the ground water pressure was so high, that they had to pump it out three times and then take it out with a crane. I was never so humiliated in my life and the contractor said, “Oh don’t feel bad; at least it wasn’t a Chevy.”
Yes (and this has been another episode of…)
OT-Nick Clegg.
Another episode of Don’t Be Stupid!
ok, folks; I need to head out.
Thanks for stopping by.
Good Article.
In rural Idaho all them plumbing and ‘lectrical codes are seen as just more socialist big gubmint interfering with our liberty. If you’ve got a pickup, a dog, and grew up on a farm, you’re a contractor.
Right. I think a contract for sale, which I have encountered is similar to ‘private placement.’ If that contract or placement involves carving off a parcel, local gov’ment gets involved here. Hm, your laws may permit subdivision of property without review. Sounds nightmarish.
I have to admit it is my chosen profession. And my having been hired twice since turning 65 says something, if only anecdotal, about the economic outlook for practitioners this particular dismal science.
Great post. I know it can cost over five grand to have a new one installed, the tanks alone will kill ya. One thing I would like to point out that I have seen first hand is when a city expands it’s boundaries and demands that once rural citizens are ordered to hook up to the new sewer system they automatically put in can cost them another five grand to hook into.
They did this to my Grandmother, who had lived in the same house for over fifty years, using a septic tank.
By the way, you haven’t lived until you have had to open one of those nasty bastards and crawl inside wearing rubber gloves and boots, to empty it it with a five gallon bucket and haul the contents to the outer edge of the property and dig a hole to bury it, just so you can fix the broken pipe that goes from the septic tank to the leach field.
Trust me on this.
I trust.
Here is a rim shot for you Aunt Toby. h/t to PW
Hiya Busted!
My poor elderly FIL — they charged him over 7K.
I know this is meddling perilously with precious memories of precious bodily fluids, and the edge of your grandmother’s place was far from any sensitive groundwater or surface water, but nowadays, a pumper truck is de rigueur.
ya mean the guy with the “Honey Sucker”?
One morning about 20 years ago I opened the door to the shower prepared to step in and instead recoiled in horror because some problem with the city sewer had caused it to back up, pumping raw sewage 80 feet backwards up my private line and leaving two inches worth in the bottom of the shower.
Good times.
Oh, as Nancy Pelosi might say, “You don’t know the half of it.”
Toby, great post.
A bum sewer cost me over $20,000. And that was **after** my county government told every one of the homeowners in my area that when subdivisions came in, the county would insist that the developers hook us all up. Because they wanted everyone on sewer.
Then the developers bitched about having to hook anyone up, because they wanted all the existing homeowners to foot their big sewer bills to their McMansion subdivisions.
Needless to say, the county caved to the developers.
Then came the subdivisions, so quickly that everyone’s water pressure got f*cked up — and then that screwed up the septic systems, which got overloaded by too much water coming at pressures higher than those systems were designed to handle.
Unbefuckinglievable.
We now have well water that smells like sewerage, because that’s essentially what they’ve become.
No one in their right mind would drink well water where I live, yet I’m told that as recently as the 1970s the old codgers drank it morning, noon, and night.
These days, my neighbors and I get to pay higher local taxes, along with all the federal bailout money. And at the heart of it all are McMansion subdivisions, too many of which — it is now clear — were built, marketed, sold, and mortgaged fraudulently.
I don’t know which shit is worse: the septic tank shit, or the government bullshit.
Actually, I do know: the septic problems don’t bother me nearly as much as the bullshit.
There’s a septic cleaning business here whose motto is, “Your Crap is our Bread and Butter”!
Oh, Lordy. Ain’t that the truth!
Reminds me of the octogenarian at my late grandma’s nursing home who informed me that the new cooks couldn’t tell shit from apple butter.
I believe it… I have seen one Called Stinky with a drawing of a skunk on the sides.
In S.W. Chester County, PA, is’t the LAW that you have to pump your tank every 2 (I believe) years. Even the public systems (sewer and water) have as their basic premise a code the protects Everyone Else from you: anti-siphon check valves to prevent contamination of water delivery lines, prohibitions against non-water immiscible flammables, which can pool and ignite, and vents above the roof. The codes are less concerned with what you do in your house (vinyl toilet supply lines, polyethylene ice-maker supply lines), but are more focused on the integrity of the public system.
I imagine the all the new McM owners have crappy water and watery crap too. How are housing prices falling there in relation to other places?
Late Nite having to do with not this subject: Archive questions…
Nightmare! Did your insurance cover it?
Damn, I have no idea how you all got off so cheap!
High sewer’s what I get for being too close in proximity to Borg Central (Redmond, Wa).
We got expensive shit out this way… (and cool it with the Microsoft snark.)
Pardon me for using the word “unbefuckinglievable” twice in a single thread 8-0
The septic tanks at the two houses we lived in in the country in 1958-1961 were both made of concrete. Yes, the grass was greener over the lateral lines. And, you have to pour a boat load of clorox down the sink to kill-off the bacteria.
Currently live in the country on fifteen acres, and have had a lagoon for some time. Contrary to county rules, I have let willow trees grow-up around the edges; when they have leafed out in the spring, over the summer, they suck the majority of water out of the lagoon. What better way to purify the waste water than to have a tree use it for the nutrients it contains and return it to the air through transpiration? We do have clay soil, so leakage is minimal.
Oh, yes!
Otherwise, you’d be in jail.
The McMansion builders, on the other hand….
(The ones that I’ve known wrote their BushCheney campaign contributions off as tax write-offs, to their PACS. By 2007, they didn’t want to talk about Dubya, which I rather relished…)
I wonder how they can stop people from using composting toilets? I thought of using one where no plumbing was allowed for a toilet, but I did not end up doing it. Still, they seem like a good solution.
City took care of the problem with the main line. If memory serves snaking a garden hose down our line was enough to clear it (eventually). I scrubbed the shower repeatedly with Ajax and still got creeped out every time I used it for about the next year.
MIster, Yer A Better Man Than I.
Yardbirds.
Don’t Know How You Did THAT One, OB
*G*
Good to see yer fonts.
Sorry, I can’t read those tea leaves. Does unbefuckinglievable mean ‘fantastic’ or ‘bullshit’ in this case? A fragile ego is at stake here. And what does “8-0″ mean?
Funny, I’ve been listening to The Yardbirds quite a bit recently. Mid ’60s is definitely my favorite era for the rock and the roll. Late ’60s was good too but I tend to think the songs a few years earlier were more evocative.
Keith Relf had one of the more bizarre untimely exits. Electrocuted by an improperly grounded guitar.
Probably an issue sort of like city chickens. If regulations prevent the use of composting toilets, perhaps it could be demonstrated that they are OK and regulations can be changed. Pathogen reduction and such like.
Know Toby W left us, but that’s one heck of a post and read.
Us city kids, we don’t know of these things till we visit our friends or live with them, or hang with them, in the country, during our lives.
You can back pack the Sierra’s from Tahoe to Whitney, and never learn about home building, sustaining, or disposal of fecal matters. I did, long ago.
I was lucky, in the early 70′s thru late 70′s the cattle and sheep upper heights hadn’t yet totally polluted the waters with giardia at 4K to 9K feet (forest line or so). We could drink it from creeks.
Now, you can’t go to 10K or more and drink the water fresh, it’s full of giardia. Gotta purify it before ya drink it or even cook with it.
But the whole notion of living in the country? With the costs?
It’s become a dream for the rich. Or those who inherited wealth.
To live in the country is a millionaire’s dream . . . . with all the costs involved that Toby and others disclosed?
Livin in the country, or in the mountains, is as costly as livin in Manhattan.
Where, and how, are the rest of the plebe’s supposed to live?
I delight hearing about all these living conditions and perils and such. Where the rich live.
But where are the rest of the population supposed to live, who are poor?
And how are they to live, with any dignity or positive impact on the land?
When I hear folks commenting a bit more about how the poor can survive, and help the environment, I might be a bit less, um, judgemental.
It takes a lot of money to live in the country.
A lot.
I hope that’s not lost on folks. Cuz poor people don’t have that kind of money.
To live. In. The country.
And living in the country is not the salvation of our planet, only the salvation for a few.
And when the support services stop delivering, they’ll be at the mercy of ‘do it yourself’ to the n’th degree.
And NO one can last for long, by themselves, with the luxury’s we have now,,
SOME, will be able to feed themselves. Maybe clothe themselves. But when supplies run out?
And there’s no supplies coming into town nearby?
At that point, the septic will have hit the fan and it won’t matter much.
*G*
I love these ‘back to the land’ posts.
Cuz NO one gets out alive. No one.
I’m a big fan of all music from CA beach sounds of early 60′s pop thru to mid 70′s rock and such.
We’d likely spend a lot of time talking about the bands, artists, and their floating, and doing.
Chirps and shredded paper to Bob, and smiles to you, Rat.
*G*
Particularly for those guys who lived next to the Catholic church [per Margaret @ 6 above].
I work on them. This was back in the late seventies.
I know all about that shit now.
(G)
Just fer shits and grins, My sewer has backed up four times in the last month here in the trailer park. Always while I am at work, it is coming from upstream. The fucking asshole who comes to clean it out doesn’t clean up any of the mess. If there are condoms or sanitary napkins involved, the motherfucker just throws them on the ground. Seeings how I do not use either of these products, I have a fucking problem with that. Wait until I get hold of this guy, I have been saving his little offerings in a covered bucket.
And that’s sayin’ somthin’. No one gets out alive. City or country. ‘Course, that would be the case even if ecosystems were not showing signs of decay and collapse.
Surfer Girl
g’nite and good wishes to you, Larue (and all)
Got it. Sorry I preached. Sounds like a real Tea Party.
While I don’t advocate violence (publicly) I sure hope you get this prick fuck in the BEST manner possible.,
Glad yer awake and hanging . . . . I’ve missed yer missives.
Yer homies drove me nuts beyond being, at yer site.
WTF, it’s only site counts, huh . .
*G*
This Gulf Oil splatter is yet another ruin of our being.
I’m not that crazed for some realities, but dang I think we are screwed.
We need a change, of governing and existing.
What we got is not gonna let us get too many generations forward.
And for that, I weep for our planet, and mankind.
And I don’t think I’m all that grandiose, either.
With my opinions.
It’s all part of life. No insult taken and it’s nice to meet ya.
I used to hang around here once in a while…..
Where ya at in OR? I grew up in Coos Bay, Newport, etc.
Eugene area. Fate has dealt me a temporary job in Susanville, CA starting in May. Second home, don’tcha know.
I don’t think you are grandiose with your opinions. I like your punctuation, anyway.
A great number of people are screwed in the slums and hinterlands of Earth right now. Water shortage (and that is indeed one of the themes of this thread) is not a prospect, but a reality for them. I think the issue of distributive justice as opposed to property rights is on the table right now. It is just that Tea Bag pus is managing to marginalize its opposition. The mainstream, or ‘liberal’ press is happy to cooperate in the marginialization, by being a little less extreme and calling it a day. Things look dire, they do, but we are many and they are few.
Meaning what?
Neither kills bacteria in the septic system.
Can’t you liberals get anything right?
Iron pipe? What is this, 1970?
You use a 4″ PVC these days with a L joint to allow for a way to clear any clog. Inside you use either a 3″ or 2″ PVC for the exit.
Come on. Either do your research or read wikipedia.
I think this topic is amusing because the writer assumes the reader doesn’t know about septic systems. Maybe it’s my age showing here, but most everything here is old news. It is almost you are having to describe a rotary phone or hand-cranked pencil sharpener to ten year olds… is a septic system really so far out of normal experience that you need to explain this much?
I concur with the main points, but the primary issue with this and all things manmade is “maintenance”. Regular maintenance is something people simply don’t seem to connect to the proper functioning of anything once installed. The interval depends on the size of the systema and the intensity of demand, but there is no doubt you will need to adhere to a program of regular maintenance. I come from a place where public schools are regularly attached to very large leach fields. They are inspected often by local sanitary officials and they are maintained regularly by school maintenance teams. Some have been in place over 40 years. They are in pretty sad shape by this time and demand has changed (increased use of industrial cleaning fluids for example). I don’t recommend 40 years as a target of performance, but I use the example to illustrate that septic systems can be effective for very long periods if properly maintained. But leachfields do have to be replaced (that is, you set aside new field area and array new pipes in them periodically) and that is usually not an cheap proposition. You typically upgrade your tanks and valves at the same time, so the issue is “do I have enough land that is properly absorptive” to support the system. In my state, you also keep these systems not less than 100 feet from your potable water wells. Where you find one, you usually find the other.
In my area, the starter material often recommended for bacteria growth in your septic tank is a dead dog. That never appealed to me, but it was a common practice.
Thanks jeffbaria for your ignorance. Most home owners don’t put in their own septic systems. There are also terra cotta and even lead pipes used all the way back to the Romans.
Now for the serious stuff. Septic systems don’t do what you think. There is very little digestion of the material by the bacteria. Some of that has to do with the enormous amount of detergent we use these days and other cleaning products but mostly, just as you think, bacteria don’t eat it either. Expected life about 30 years and then the pores of the dirt are so clogged up with slimy left overs that no amount of anything will fix them. Usual first effort is sulfuric acid which makes almost everything water soluble and it a good idea with leaching cesspools etc. but it would take an immense amount to make it last after your check clears with the fixer. Pumping every year is good if you have an incontenent mother or some other reason to think it is soon to go. About $300 a pop for a 5,000 tank. No one around me has gotten a “new” system for anything in the neighgorhood of $5,000 for 30 years though that is the usual thought. Just sayin’
Toby, great post, as per usual.
Good post.
Having handled sanitation and energy use/monitoring in American rural settings and in some environmentally sensitive areas, I continue to be astounded by Americans’ attitude of entitlement to their “inputs” and lack of responsibility for their “outputs”. After the last international residential construction boom, the number of country-to-condo properties swimming in e coli-contaminated groundwater is higher than folks might suspect and, for instance, with a serious amount of it washing right into the DC Metro. I am not even factoring in the nasty chemical laden soils and water (e.g., nitrates, nitrites, arsenic) that the new owners are subjecting themselves which is a “feature” of suddenly re-purposed commericial (e.g., agricultural) land. Part of the last building boom meant that builders were allowed to punch more water wells that negatively impacted already-established water usage and plant more septic systems. One builder was allowed to “disappear” a ground water entry way to the Potomac off USGS maps so the property could be converted to a quarter acre “luxury” property (read minimum spec house resized to maximize the space it took up on the lot creating a more dense resource-pulling and waste-creating endeavor. Yea-haw!).
So, for anyone willing to be a bit more conscious about their “inputs” and “outputs” you get a gold star from me and a few food-for-thought tips:
1) A how-to, low-cost working solar (water-conserving!) composting toilet including some lessons learned by Dunton Family Farms:
‘Constructing Our Solar Composting Toilet– “Building 33″‘
Caveat– strict discipline over the “inputs” into the human bodies is required if serious about using the resulting compost.
2) A city planning-scaled project with links to resources:
Phlush
Wiki failed you bub.
If you are going to castigate people for “not getting anything right” you might try getting something right first. Household sanitary plumbing is typically run using ABS pipe (black) not PVC (white) (although you do see it used). And that “L” joint? I suspect you were trying to come up with “ell” joint. You failed there too. The proper description would be a “clean-out” (similar to a sanitary wye). CIP (Cast Iron) is still required by mechanical codes particularly in multistory or commercial/industrial applications.
The “research” failure is on your part.