I love your headline….nothing tastes so good as egg being wiped. Maybe there will be more.

I saw Whitacre’s ad last night mentioning this- wondered when it had happened.

Now, will any member of the trad med ask a Rethug about this? I’d like to see some public, on-screen egg-from-face-wiping.

How can Limpy Limbaugh spin this one? I’m guessing he’ll ignore it and just keep on bloviating about other things.

Congratulations, Mr. President. I agreed with your decision but I had my doubts. I am glad to be proved wrong, and my guess is we will make a profit when we sell the stock down the road…and Hugh Hewitt is a twit.

The wrinkle here?

GM got out from under the U.S. loan in order to import cars made in China. Wouldn’t look good if taxpayers were directly funding the permanent loss of jobs in the U.S. in exchange for permanent jobs in China.

Just wait, Marcy’s sure to have something on this soon.

Beyond those two idiots, I would love to see a mashup of all the others that predicted the end of the world over this.

I’m kicking myself because I didn’t buy up a thousand or so shares when I could have.

Yep and yep.

Would not look good at all.

Where’s my Chevy Spark?

Hey Wingnuts: Like your eggs scrambled, do you?

I saw it this morning. My thought though was that Whitacre was auditioning to be this generation’s Lee Iacocca.

If I had to guess, it’d be tough.

It’s either in Jinqiao, or Yantai, or Shenyang.

;-)

Wouldn’t look good if taxpayers were directly funding the permanent loss of jobs in the U.S. in exchange for permanent jobs in China.

So, you’re saying that taxpayers are not directly funding the permanent loss of jobs in the U.S. in exchange for permanent jobs in China?

Could have fooled me.

Its great that they are paying back the money, but they still owe 45.3 billion dollars. This seems a bit premature to be taking a victory lap.

There’s indirectly and directly. Didn’t say we weren’t funding them at all.

On the other hand, I’m sure that somewhere in China there are people talking about whether they are funding the U.S. economy directly or indirectly through financing our debt.

And the real problem with job loss and the shifting of manufacturing out of this country is American transnational corporations and the Masters of the Universe who run them — and run Congress. That’s the ultimate problem.

*snort*

On this topic, I doubt that the Republics will be appearing only on Fox Nooz, so it’ll be egg-free appearances.

Damn, an ad for Chucks ratcheer on dis page. Gonna hafta start puttin’ clothes on to come here now.

Back to work.

Namaste

Good catch how many jobs?

Well, not quite.

GM Will Pay Back Gov’t Loan…With Gov’t Money?

http://motherjones.com/politics/2009/11/gm-will-pay-back-govt-loanwith-govt-money

Sarcasm

Forget about paying off the loans….think of all of the JOBS that move saved. Orahma gets something right from time to time.

From Forbes;

Can China save GM?

… GM began talking seriously to SAIC about the Chinese carmaker’s long-standing request to take majority control of their Shanghai GM joint venture. GM resisted in the past, but circumstances had changed. GM also had another agenda: It wanted SAIC’s help to expand in India, a market that was just taking off. The postbankruptcy exit financing provided by the U.S. and Canadian governments resulted in more flexibility for funding international operations. By then, however, GM had already agreed to the deal with SAIC. …

The linked article is worth reading in it’s entireity.

And the real problem with job loss and the shifting of manufacturing out of this country is American transnational corporations and the Masters of the Universe who run them — and run Congress. That’s the ultimate problem.

What is GM if not an American transnational corporation?

Watch what happens over the next couple of years, Congress will move to divest itself of the 60% or so position it/we own in GM, just in time for the stock to go through the roof as GM starts making a killing selling cars it makes in asia.

Our tax dollars are helping finance the export of American jobs.

Something to think about;

It is sometimes hard to tell the difference between the sarcastic style of discourse we engage in on this board, and the misinformation parroted by the naive tea-bagging wingnuts.

As one who tends to use humor to avoid crying 24/7 myself, I’m having to rethink how I explain myself to my kids.

The bankruptcy process is intended to punish the upper-tier management of the failing company for its misallocation of capital leading to bankruptcy…not the regular folk who are just trying to make a living. Those jobs likely would not have been lost (some probably), just absorbed by another company which is better managed.

Also, you can’t just forget about the loans. GM repaid $8.1 billion, but the govt. had already converted around $45 billion in loans into an equity stake (60%ish) in the company. When (and if) GM becomes private again, the IPO will need to be at or above the value of those loans or the taxpayer will be liable for those losses.

None of this takes into account the unfunded liabilities in GM’s pension plan estimated at around $27 billion.

Please correct if I am mistaken.

Whoa, dudes. A BT post and all nice comments.
Nice to see!
Thanks for all you do, BT. Keep the skin thick, and keep the faith.

Who is surprised that they are paying it back. Okay, it’s our money, but, do we expect Wall Street to pay us back, with our money?

I blame Reagan.

The folks who built, sold and repaired Pontiacs, Saturns, and Hummers might argue that point a bit.

From CNN Money;

Hummer isn’t the only brand that GM is leaving behind. The automaker will also shed its Pontiac, Saturn and Saab brands and cut loose more than 2,000 of its 6,000 U.S. dealerships by next year.

That could result in more than 100,000 additional job losses if those dealerships are forced to close.

Oh, choir/preaching.

You see, my spouse’s business has only been kept afloat this last two years by doing business in China. Without them his plant and all the jobs in it would have been gone. But they make manufacturing equipment which in turn makes vehicles (not GM vehicles, but Chinese-make trucks). It’s a Catch-22.

The largest underserved markets in the world are India and China, and we can either expend a lot of energy trying to serve them from here and end up with increasing frustration on their part and eventually get shut out, or help them serve themselves there with some of our ingenuity and try to create new value-added businesses here. It’s a balancing act on a scale we haven’t seen before, but there it is.

I just laughed so loud my four year old got up from her nap and asked me what was so funny. Thanks for that. :)

That’s precisely what it is now. A balancing act.

By supplying our innovative technology their industry is advanced by leaps and bounds, further nullifying the need for American manufacturing. This in turn could result in the loss of more US based manufacturing jobs and an increase in low paying, no future service industry jobs.

Its starting to seem to me that most people in this country are just working in customer service or retail so they have the money to spend on customer service and retail.

one of the best, inspiring adds you’re about to see concerning this payback of loan

http://gmreinvention.com/

It’s a balancing act on a scale we haven’t seen before, but there it is.

Yes, it certainly is, and we’ll be talking about it again and again, and we’ll be talking about how it’s good to have jobs for longshoremen, unloading Chevy’s made in China.

I have Chinese friends who worked menial jobs in the USA while gaining an education that makes them important at home now that they have graduated, I also have an American friend who makes a living teaching the Chinese advanced manufacturing management techniques.

This is all very complicated and difficult to absorb, I just hope you and I don’t end up working for Wal-Mart and living in cardboard boxes out back of the store, where we discuss all of this around the campfire at night.

It might look that way from the outside, but it’s not as easy for China to leapfrog. Many of their biggest cities are rejuvenated and modern, but most of the country is rural and impoverished.

Like this.

Chinese leaders are challenged with having to keep a population more than three times the size of the U.S. satisfied. We may whine and complain from the outside as westerners about their human rights, but they have to find a way to move a massive population through several hundred years of change in a very short time, while not exploding or imploding from sudden political upheaval due to culture shock and pressures from pent-up demand for what passes as a middle-class life in the west. Imagine what leapfrogging to an American-level of consumption would do to this planet if the Chinese government simply rolled over and became western in its management practices.

Can’t even begin to imagine what it would do to the race for energy and weapons.

In some respects the loss of low-level manufacturing jobs here was to keep a restless population there satisfied for a couple decades. The challenge to Americans is that we failed to invest in the next step, a move to a knowledge-based economy. President Hu of China explicitly told us over a year ago that the U.S. should be doing much more value-added work because its population was so much more prepared for it. If they can see this, why can’t we?

You do realize that:

GM got a total of $52 billion from the U.S. government and $9.5 billion from the Canadian and Ontario governments as it went through bankruptcy protection last year. The U.S. considered as a loan $6.7 billion of the aid, while the Canadian governments held $1.4 billion in loans.

The U.S. government payments, made Tuesday, came five years ahead of schedule, and Whitacre said they are a sign that the automaker is on its way toward reducing government ownership of the company. The payments on the Canadian loans were also made Tuesday.

GM hopes to repay the remaining $45.3 billion to the U.S. government and $8.1 billion to Canada, money it received in exchange for large stakes in the company.

Kind of like saying Obama promised not to raise income taxes, when in fact he categorically stated there would be NO taxes of any kind raised for middle class, but then you are all slowly realizing that Obamas promises come with a fairly short life expectancy….Cheers!

As has been pointed out earlier, the feds still own 60 percent of GM. I wouldn’t celebrate until there’s an IPO, guys.

Even then, I’d still rather have a Ford, because they avoided bailout money to keep the lights open, and look at them now.

This is hardly paying back the people. GM paid back a little under $7 billion in loans to the US government. Remember how much money they got in their bailout? $52 billion. This is not paying back in full. When the people no longer own 61% of GM, and have been paid back all $52 billion, then this would be true.

Some of the answer lies right there in the fact that they are hungry enough to do menial labor here in order to obtain what is prized in their country: an American education.

I have kids in public school right now; they are in the International Baccalaureate program, which is an internationally-recognized program ensuring my kids are working at the same level as their counterparts around the world. They have a crap load of homework every day, sometimes as much as 5 hours a night. But that’s kids in other countries are doing, and that’s what American kids here are not doing. My kids are unfortunately exceptions; there are only a handful of Intl Baccalaureate schools in my state, and the program is optional. The rest of their cohort is in the traditional program which places more emphasis on sports.

My kids also have a pain-in-the-ass demanding nag for a mother who has worked for several transnational corporations, and a father who travels around the world for business. We’re not as rare as we were a decade ago, but we can see readily the difference it makes in expectations between our kids and the rest of the local kids their age. My son wants to go to Oxford, for example; his classmates taunt him for it. That’s the American way.

If we end up living out of cardboard boxes behind Walmart, it’s because we were too arrogant to expect to compete with other countries, even as kids. We didn’t expect that they’d some day have the same kinds of skills and knowledge we have. Shame on us.

Kind of like saying Obama promised not to raise income taxes, when in fact he categorically stated there would be NO taxes of any kind raised for middle class, but then you are all slowly realizing that Obamas promises come with a fairly short life expectancy….Cheers!

you are using back speak, remember when reagan said he “lowered taxe”?

he raised taxes more then any peacetime president before him however he lowered taxes for a select few and went on to claim he did something catagorically oposite what he really did

obama on the other hand, all things being considered, lowered taxes for over 90 percent

now tell me, which one do YOU like better?

but of course there is the propaganda making believe republicans lower taxes when clearly the reverse is true

now, I love my catagorically effective tax reduction, you not so much?

heh….wait for the other shoe to drop perris, Obamas tax increases on ALL of us will put Ronnie to shame. VAT tax anyone?

Cite the code, please. What are the House and Senate bills which passed a VAT? You can check at either OpenCongress.org or at Thomas.gov.

If there’s no VAT passed, you cannot claim a tax increase for that purpose.

One of the problems we are faced with now is a nine-year-long shortfall of revenues because of recession (depression, depending on where one lives) combined with the Bush tax cuts. A Republican-led government went war, stayed there, increased the size of government over a six-year period of time; Dems have not had either the critical mass (2006-2008) or the moxie (2009-present) to rein in the size of government, draw down military spending, and invest in job creation. Until we — meaning the White House and us through our elected officials — start addressing those three points, we’re going to continue to be in a hole.

there are no tax increases on ALL of us, however there WERE tax increase on all of us through the reagan/bush era

of course there were the same statements about taxes when clinton brought us out of the depression reagan/bush caused with their fake tax cuts…where were you then?…still arguing against the greatest economic recovery in a generation I am sure

just what are you defending?

the taxes you know as a fact happened under the republicans or the taxes those very same republicans tell you are going to happen under the democrats?

if you want lower taxes, the republicans are not the party you need to be fighting for

if you want “no taxes” there are plenty of countries without socialism and the taxes associated, they would be those without socialism that manifests as roads, water and electricity to your house, the police dept, the fire dept and the armed forces

if you want a country with no taxes find one with none of that socialism and welcome yourself to it

Somalia is probably the best example of the Libertarian dream in operation.

wow….love your straw-men dontcha? I dislike Obamas spending money we don’t have, and fear the inevitable taxes that will surely be coming…which will likely tip the economy over the precipice, so I surely must have loved Bush/Reagan and their growing government and irresponsible spending, and I hate spending money on schools, roads, water, etc. Are you truly that stupid? Oops, sorry, you’re Obama-zombies, so that is a given. I’m against wasteful spending, and adding thousands if not millions more government employees. Can you name one government agency that was formed to address a problem, that solved that problem, and then went away? Good luck. They are like ticks on a dog, and become the “special interests” that everyone derides. A new government agency is FOREVER.

[Mod Note: Please do not call names. Argue the facts only is the standard at FDL and companion sites]

If you read here much, you know this site is emphatically not “Obama-zombies.” You will find plenty of harsh criticism of Obama here.

But we do pride ourselves on not arguing fictions, and on keeping commenters to the straight and narrow of facts.

And the only people/politicians I’ve heard mention a VAT are Republicans.

And yes, I did notice a tax cut in my rather low income this year, why do you ask?

oooo, great example.

Obama suggests Value Added Tax

Not me, they’re gettin’ 2 bucks a week more outta me. Almost 2 weeks worth tiger food.

Can you name one government agency that was formed to address a problem, that solved that problem, and then went away?

Yes. The WPA and the CCC.

Next talking point?

wow….two in 230 years…and it took a World War to do it. Next talking point?

and lest we forget, numerous studies of late have concluded that the arbitrary and unpredictable actions of FDR actually extended the Great Depression, and it was WWII and his death, that finally ended it.

Nice regurgitation of right wing talking points with no basis of fact.

If you think you do have a valid fact with that statement, provide links to buttress your assertions.

You wrote,

Can you name one government agency that was formed to address a problem, that solved that problem, and then went away? Good luck.

You asked for one. I named two, just to prove a point. In other words, you were shown to be wrong.

If you want more, do your own homework.

And in the future, when someone demonstrates that you’re wrong, it’s better to admit it, than simply move on to the next talking point/insult.

It’s what adults do.

Have a nice day.

Thom Hartman has a good rebuttal of this BS on his website.

Were you born unable to receive cogitative input, or did you learn that behavior?

HA HA HA…sure, lets play your game. Show me one federal/state agency that was formed to address a problem in the last 60 years, that addressed the problem, and then was dissolved. Never. Gonna. Happen. They take on a life of their own, and become their own special interest group. Government agencies are FOREVER. You only demonstrated I was “wrong” in your own convoluted mind….very adult of you to then take your ball and go home. Typical though…..

Surely, from the noted neo-cons at UCLA

Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

After scrutinizing Roosevelt’s record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.

“Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump,” said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA’s Department of Economics. “We found that a relapse isn’t likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies.”

In an article in the August issue of the Journal of Political Economy, Ohanian and Cole blame specific anti-competition and pro-labor measures that Roosevelt promoted and signed into law June 16, 1933.

“President Roosevelt believed that excessive competition was responsible for the Depression by reducing prices and wages, and by extension reducing employment and demand for goods and services,” said Cole, also a UCLA professor of economics. “So he came up with a recovery package that would be unimaginable today, allowing businesses in every industry to collude without the threat of antitrust prosecution and workers to demand salaries about 25 percent above where they ought to have been, given market forces. The economy was poised for a beautiful recovery, but that recovery was stalled by these misguided policies.”

Go read the whole thing….I’ll wait…..

A quick skimming of their paper from ’01 seems to show that they created a “model economy” then went a long way to assure their data and conclusions met a pre-conceived conclusion.

Do you have any independent analyses of their papers?

(for what it’s worth, we are seeing today, many results based on economists trying to fit reality into a “this is how a model economy works” and those models usually have little connection to the hard facts in the real world.)

Otherwise, if they did, we’d be seeing the DOW at 36K

edit: And the credibility of most economists is not real strong right at the moment. As a long ago Sociology major, I can make valid arguments at being far better able to predict future actions than the made up formulas and pseudo predictions used by the Econ world. the term “baffle with bullsh*t comes rapidly to mind)

Yes, sir ree…bub… Hugh Hewitt…. Master of all that is good and American and right-wing down to our bones… AND – A COMPLETE MORON….

If you put ALL these scum-trodden, ear-drooling, throat-breathing, hunch-backed talking heads from Newt’s camp and pair them up with beck, limberger, the alaskan swag-hag, bachmann, billo-the-clone and Ailes, you get Hewitt..

Just what Arizonie needs more of….

Once again, you wrote,

Can you name one government agency that was formed to address a problem, that solved that problem, and then went away? Good luck.

I named two, just to show you that you were wrong. You then ignored the fact you were proven wrong, and asked another question.

Now, you’re moving the goalposts.

In conclusion, you’re a troll.

do dah!

This bit:

I dislike Obamas spending money we don’t have, and fear the inevitable taxes that will surely be coming…which will likely tip the economy over the precipice

is not rational. First, Obama can’t spend anything. Only Congress can. Second, what exactly is the concern here with regard to spending? The country has been roped into spending money on one illegal war and an another ill-advised one, locked into that spending well before this administration. Since military spending entails 54% of discretionary spending, why no calls to curtail that first before complaining about new taxes?

WTF? How can they even think of having an IPO when the company is 3/4 owned/leased by the gov of US and Canada? And their still losing money? This is what’s wrong with the business/financial industries. I don’t think they should even think of selling stock till their debts are paid and time enough has gone by to see if they can survive.

Whitacre said he expects an initial public offering in late 2010 or early 2011. GM officials said it likely will take years for the governments to divest themselves fully, but after meeting with the Michigan delegation, Whitacre said there is a “high” possibility that taxpayers will end up being fully compensated.

“I think the stock could be worth a lot and the taxpayers could get all their money — plus — back,” he said.

Bruce Clark, senior vice president of Moody’s Investors Service, said the loan payback is one step in a longer improvement process for GM. It’s also a sign of positive changes that include GM reducing its debt load and rolling out better vehicles.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100421/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_loans

I used to watch Fox news (24 hour one) and believed the many quests including Rush. Today, I watch Fox very rarely and I now realize how slanted they were.

I even hated President Obama, but have changed my mind after he took over the office. Obama took the job when everything was a mess and Fox news wouldn’t even give him time to fix things. Although I voted for Bush and McCain, today I realize both did very little in office for all those years.

I applaud Obama for saving GM and Chrysler. In time you will see that move was one of the best of his career. Otherwise, our US government would be paying through the nose and with possibly a huge depression.

oops…looks like an “inconvenient truth” has popped up….

A top Senate Republican on Thursday accused the Obama administration of misleading taxpayers about General Motors’ loan repayment, saying the struggling auto giant was only able to repay its bailout money by dipping into a separate pot of bailout money.

Sen. Chuck Grassley’s charge was backed up by the inspector general for the bailout — also known as the Trouble Asset Relief Program, or TARP. Watchdog Neil Barofsky told Fox News, as well as the Senate Finance Committee, that General Motors used bailout money to pay back the federal government.

“It appears to be nothing more than an elaborate TARP money shuffle,” Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, said in a letter Thursday to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner.

GM announced Wednesday that it had paid back the $8.1 billion in loans it received from the U.S. and Canadian governments. Of that, $6.7 billion went to the U.S. treasury.

But Grassley said in his letter that a Securities and Exchange Commission form filed by GM showed that $6.7 billion of the tens of billions the company received was sitting in an escrow account and available to be used for repayment. He called on Geithner to provide more information about why the company was allowed to use bailout money to repay bailout money, and how much of the remaining escrow money GM would be allowed to keep.