Americans are now pretty evenly divided about whether they would rather have Barack Obama or George W. Bush in the White House.

How is this even remotely surprising? Many of those who supported Bush believe that Obama is an evil socialist, and enough of us who would want to support Obama can’t because we know that there’s not much difference between Bush and Obama other than the lofty rhetoric.

Obama has pretty much been Bush almost in lock step. Even worse, it’s all the “bad” stuff that Obama is most in sync with Bush on:
- Biggest bonuses in Wall Street history? Check.
- A surge in a war that must be won? Check.
- Budget deficits that make prior annual deficits more easily comparable to current monthly deficits? Check.
- Big expansion of health care to benefit of corporations? Check.
- Guantanamo? Check.
- I’m sure I am missing something very obvious.
Sure he does just enough to keep his loyal base. And he does a great job of acting like everything he does actually is a big change that was fought against evil Republicans. In the end, LOOK WHERE WE ARE! LOOK WHAT WE ARE DOING!

What diff does it make which one is in the WH?

I’d rather have Bush back doing what Obama is doing…what’s the difference? At least it would be a Republican doing these terrible things, rather than a Democrat.

That just defies explanation.

More good news for O. /s

True, but I think one of the progressives’ biggest mistakes during the Bush era was to spend all their time attacking Bush and Republicans rather building a stronger Democratic Party free of Blue Dog and New Dem neoliberal bullshit.

But this would be like in 1934, nearly half the country longing for the return of Hoover — if Hoover had lost two wars on top of driving the country’s economy off the cliff.

THanks B.T. Great Analogy

There are many many people very very angry. (and quite a few of them are Dems) What this man in the W.H. has done in a very short time is alienate a good chunk of the electorate – IMHO.

THings are not looking good. Take a drive out into corn country. Talk to the farmers (and only talk to those that are registered D’s). Talk about crop prices vs production costs and then factor in land prices. And the banks can’t give the money away fast enough for ag production (of course all the while holding the paper on the land)

free of Blue Dog and New Dem neoliberal bullshit.

And which current members does this not include?

W is starting to look good even to me and I hated the guy.

I read an article within the past few weeks that said the person the majority of people would like to see in the White House is Bill Clinton. They didn’t ask me but I wouldn’t mind having Bill back. Of course that’s not possible but maybe if we get Hillary, Bill would get back to the White House that way.
Oh, the number two most popular person was your friend Rahm.
Obama was a distant third.

Maybe if he and really Senate Democrats would do more to differentiate the Party from Bush’s policies, things would be different. Maybe it is the old if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, may as well just be the duck phenomenon.

Let’s face it–Sarah hit a nerve when she asked how that “hopey changey thing” was going.

Maybe, but to be perfectly honest, Sarah could get on my nerves asking for directions to the restroom.

I’d rather they/we had been building a movement independent of the Democrats. That’s what has to be done now regardless of the current hopeless Dems and their electoral fates.

Obama has bent over backward to embrace most Dubya admin policies. Obama has continued without alteration more Dubya admin. policies than he has altered.

It’s not hard to see why Obama and Dubya are polling pretty similar. Obama is Dubya without the public speaking brainfarts.

People voted for change, not better pronunciation.

Yeah, right, Obama’s just like Bush. Choking on pretzels, rubbing female Prime Ministers’ shoulders, proclaiming “Mission Accomplished,” neglecting a drowning American city, exposing CIA operative’s identities, starting “splendid” litle wars, firing AGs on political grounds, nominating right-wing ideologues to SCOTUS.

Obama’s just like Bush. Jeez, get a grip.

“Those folks may not have liked him but they now say they would rather have him back than Obama. 87% of GOP voters now say they would prefer Bush, a number a good deal higher than Bush’s approval rating within his party toward the tail end of his Presidency. Democrats predictably go for Obama by an 86/10 margin, and independents lean toward him as well by a 49/37 spread.”

Some of the commenters nailed it…why not ask how many would like Ronnie back, or Gerald Ford, or Jimmy Carter, or, egads, the Clenis. Would the split be as consistent? Yeah, probably.

Hey, when one continues wars, wiretapping, officially sanctioned murder, throwing money at the rich while to little guy gets crumbs of scraps, what difference does it make who is in the White House?

Obama is Bush 2.0, just slicker. He continues the far majority of Bush policies and is even expanding on some of the most heinous. (Assassinations of American citizens by presidential fiat anyone?)

However, under Bush, “liberals” or “progressives” actually mounted some opposition to these radical and unconstitutional policies.

Under Obama, those same radical and unconstitutional policies that were opposed by “liberals” or “progressives” when Bush did them, are now embraced by the majority of them, and called centrist and serious.

So given a choice between the two war criminals*, I guess chalk me up as one that would rather have Bush back. At least people opposed the policies when Bush did it.

(*Not investigating and prosecuting war crimes is in itself a warcrime. Cheney has admitted to war crimes on national TV, ie waterboarding. Obama refuses to investitgate or prosecute, and therefor, is a war criminal)

Take the picture out of my face please! Stop the wars now! http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/world/asia/15outpost.html?hp USA is losing mil personnel (human beings, losing political capital and credibility and losing trillions in deficit spending. Bernanke announced today the US deficit must be cut. Maybe but the military and its desire for continual war is got to take a big cut to down size the deficit.
With that money pumped into the main street economy with alternative energy jobs we can further reduce the deficit as the economy will grow again.

Perhaps people just come here to vent that Obama’s changey-hopey thing didn’t happen overnight, but isn’t this thread about those who want W back in the White House. How does buyer’s remorse make Obama just like George?

Here you go. A list of third parties in the US. Take your pick.

This has become the place to daily bash Obama. The topic or events matter little.

when one continues wars, wiretapping, officially sanctioned murder, throwing money at the rich while to little guy gets crumbs of scraps

But Margaret, For us party faithful, What Isn’t to Like ?

oops, we missed indefinite internment

Don’t push me.

I regret not casting my vote for Cynthia McKinney enough as it is. I donated to her Congressional campaigns.

And that’s bad?

This is also the place to be informed about how to try to push back. Not that we’ve been very effective.

And as for wanting Bush back: At least with Bush we knew what we were getting (i.e., Cheney and the Dark Side.) It feels easier to look evil in the face than to have it sneak up and poke you in the back.

It most definitely is not the result of voters seeing Obama as an extension of Bush. Although a few lefties believe this or pretend to, their numbers are small.

I think the primary reason for these jarring numbers is that many voters are in a dispeptic mood as a result of the recession. As a consequence, virtually everyone currently in power, is going to suffer when compared with anyone out of power – even the joker who was at the wheel when we went into the economic ditch.

Now, as the economy improves, the voters mood will brighten and those in power will see their numbers improve. This psychological adjustment is a lagging indicator, as such, it is unclear if it will be substantially in play before the November mid-terms.

Indeed.

Progressives should start organizing NOW for a new nominee in 2012.

We need the guy who was so unfairly dumped in 2004 — Howard Dean.

So six percent of voters want none of the above? Man I really am a minority voter. This result is widely outside of my expectations.

It most definitely is not the result of voters seeing Obama as an extension of Bush. Although a few lefties believe this or pretend to, their numbers are small.

I want what you’re smoking

I don’t think “Obama’s just like Bush.” I’m arguing that he’s probably a) been too much like Bush and b) hasn’t articulated how he’s been different forcefully enough.

Even if you disagree with (a), it’s hard to argue with (b) based on those poll numbers.

poke you in the back

Oh, that’s what it is. I though it was rape.

I get why people are saying that they’d almost like Bush back, but just looking at his face make me nauseous.

However, I guess I get to dive into the pool of “bashing Obama,” but for the life of me, I don’t see much difference between the Shrub and Hopey. I wish I did, and believe me, I get out my electron microscope to look for those differences… other than Hopey not rubbing Angela Merkel’s shoulders, what’s the difference? Seriously: what????

I agree with a prior post that said, we didn’t vote just for better pronunciation. Amen.

Please cite examples of how Obama is different than Bush in actual policies. (ie, not his glorious yet empty rhetoric)

Wake me when the economy improves.

An ineffectual stimulus loaded with tax breaks,
state governments starving,
job creation is nil,
wall street back to gambling with our money,
and a congress unwilling to act.

I can see why the Health Insurance ripoff doesn’t kick in till 2014.

Yep, but I still love the Lake. Obama’s definitely on my shitlist, too. But just because he’s not doing exactly what I tell him to do doesn’t make him the worst President in history.

In most democracies, when the opposition take control of the government through elections, there is a dramatic change.

Not some less than 1% incremental twiddling bullshit.

I’ve done that a 100 times, and I’m tired of doing it. Use teh googles.

But just becuase he’s not doing exactly what I tell him to do anything he promised except war doesn’t make him the worst President in history.

Fixed. And that make him the best President evah?

I think the primary reason for these jarring numbers is that many voters are in a dispeptic mood as a result of the recession

That could explain why people would prefer Romney or Huckabee to Obama. Sure. But Bush? Sorry, that’s not a sufficient explanation.

Either policy or PR — or both — is failing. Big time.

What did I say that you don’t agree with? When did Obama stop anything homeland security has been doing during the past several years? Why is he continuing DADT? Why is his DOJ defending Bush criminals? Which war has he stopped pouring money into? Out of 200,000 mortgage defaults per month, a little over 165,000 have been modified in the past 18 months! The other day it was announced that he had effectively put a CIA contract on an American citizen, something that he has refused to deny. He took single payer off the table without discussing it, he refused to press for a public option, he made a back room deal with pharma to get their support on HIR. He cut another back room deal with insurance companies who stabbed him in the back while he kept his part of the bargain to the cost of the American people. Unemployment is high but his solution to get it moving again was to throw tax cuts at the Republicans, a tactic that netted him exactly 3 Republican votes.
I knocked on doors for Obama. I voluntarily drove people to the polls using my car and my gasoline. What is it that that I said that makes you disagree with my assessment of the situation? I’m not pro Bush but I’m becoming anti Obama.

I don’t see how this post “bashes” Obama.

So many here seem to think that everything should have already been done because Obama has total and complete power. Not to mention the magic wand that he’s just refusing to use.

All that’s saying is that when people have a choice between a real Republican and a pretend one, they’ll choose the real one.

C’mon Blue Texan. Throw your hat in the ring.

Don’t understand the Bush thing, but interesting to note that 59% of those wanting HCR repealed do want the Public Option.

LINK.

oops, we missed indefinite internment

Also, “State Secrets Priviledge” overriding even the weak FISA (that one lost in the courts, fortunately).

Do 46% of Americans Really Want George W. Bush Back? Really?

No, I think the poll was flawed by choosing equal pops of dems and reps.

Actually, I was referring to the comments, here and on most other posts.

Then I call BS. Most of peoples examples are just instances of Obama’s Kabuki. Like saying he ended torture, only to find out that we still dont let in the red cross to black sites at Bagram in Afghanistan. Not to mention all the reports of abuse that come out of the non-secret part of Bagram prison.

Or the closing of Gitmo. Again, more Kabuki. Not only is Gitmo still open, but he doesnt plan to end the practice of indefinite detention, just move it to Illinois.

Or leaving Iraq. You realize we are following the EXACT timetable that was in place when Bush was in office right? No difference there.

Health insurance “reform” – A huge corporate sellout. Looks like Bush again.

So yea, 100 times my arse. BS.

Understood.

I don’t demand that he walk on water. It’s not too much to ask that he tell the truth, that he does the things he promised during his campaign, and that he does the right thing. I didn’t vote for some warmed-over Republican. I really put my heart into this one and I am angry.

I get your point, and to a large extent, I agree (with both A and B). There is a danger in making snap judgements about the effectiveness of any given President and I would argue that 14 months isn’t enough time to really make an assessment about where Obama wants to go with his Presidency.

Bush II would have been an otherwise forgettable one-term President, and then 9-11 happened. So much depends on outside, unpredictable events.

Oh,come on BW,

Obama had the largest majority in years and did not use it. To that extent, he had a magic wand had he chosen to fulfill some of his promises.

A failure of leadership is what I call it.

Very well put.

Hear! Hear! Maybe some of us are tired of having to choose between the lesser of two evils. I’m still wearing my Obama sweat shirt at this very moment. It’s not that he hasn’t delivered fast enough, it’s that in too many cases he has pointedly refused to deliver. If they had asked me, I would never have said that I want Bush back, Obama is undeniably better than Bush in most ways. That’s an EXTREMELY low bar though.

I agree. It’s like he picked his leadership style from Carter, not FDR.

Right. But to the extent one can manage one’s own image — which is supposed to be Team Obama’s strength — this is an epic fail.

Also, “State Secrets Priviledge” overriding even the weak FISA (that one lost in the courts, fortunately).

and my latest favorite, the order to Shoot On Sight of an un-convicted US Citizen.

There is a pragmatic reason for wanting Bush (Republican) instead of Obama (Democrat) in that how Greenwald has pointed out Obama has taken what was once considered partisan extremism and is now turning it into bipartisan consensus (like with indefinite detention), though I doubt that had anything to do with the polling and I think it has more to do with the economy. Unemployment has gotten worse under Obama than it was under Bush while Obama spent the past year pushing fascist healthcare legislation while people month after month were getting pink slips with Obama essentially ignoring them. I’d prefer to have neither, but at least with Bush things were considered partisan but now with a Democrat acting like Bush, Bush’s actions are no longer considered either partisan or extreme.

Please give examples of what those “most ways” are.

What I don’t see is the survey that led to this odd result. It matters a great deal, the context of the survey results reported here.

I’m not going to help you bash the man. I’ll assess the situation as honestly as I can but I’m not here to slam him just for the hell of it. He is undeniably better than Bush in many areas but as I said, that bar has been set so low as to make the differences indistinguishable in some cases.

“So many here seem to think that everything should have already been done because Obama has total and complete power”

Claiming the unilateral right to assassinate citizens seems like total and complete power. Do you view a assassinations of US citizens is some minor thing?

That’s silly.

that he doesat least appears to try to do the things he promised during his campaign

I’d really like him to work harder on that “return to the rule of law” thingy.

I’ve never, ever once in my life “expected” any politician (or any person, for that matter) to do “exactly what I want.” That’s just nonsense, and I doubt that many/all here had any kind of expectation like that.

I’ve never, ever expected any politician to follow through on every single campaign promise they make. I’m a grown up and see reality for what it is.

However, I DO have an expectation (and I don’t think I’m stupid to do so) that a politician will carry through on most campaign promises and the general platform on which he or she runs. I mean, seriously, if I cannot “expect” that to happen, then why the heck should I vote for that person?

BHO ran on a specific platform and made specific promises, most of which he immediately ignored and/or deliberately acted counter to once he got in office. No, I did NOT vote for *this* version of BHO’s so-called “change,” which amounts to NO change at all from the previous corrupt administration.

Spare me the cavailing about how we here at FDL just want “everything our way.” Wake up and smell the coffee. I do not accept that. Most commenters here are pretty good at smelling bulltwaddle and calling it for what it is. BHO is NOT representing Democratic voters, nor has he followed through on almost anything that was included on his campaign platform.

It’s not the ‘everything’, I think, that is at issue – it’s the ‘big-ticket’ items that are on the books and irrevocable.
Like the ‘too small by nearly half’ stimulus, which is unlikely to be revisited in any meaningful way.
Like the health care legislation, which history tells us is now a ‘Victory moment’, and which the administration, nor the pliant and trapped Congress will not vigorously repair, lest it be shown to be a fraud and a failure.
It’s the bank bailouts, which no one needs further explanation of.

The, pardon this phrase, ‘small-ticket’ items, like Lilly Ledbetter, stem-cell research, Cash-For-Clunkers are nice, but are not tranformative in this age of catastrophic failures in health care delivery, enormous profits for financial crime, and a jobless ‘recovery’.

If you are going to botch or ignore some things, please let it be the small stuff.

So you cant even give one example? Gotcha. Hell I know one example, Sotomayor. But I would be hard pressed to come up with a second. Can you?

I don’t agree that it doesn’t make a difference who is in the White House.

(from wiki)

Sonia Maria Sotomayor is an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, serving since August 2009. Sotomayor is the Court’s 111th justice, its first Hispanic justice, and its third female justice.

With the approval rating at the time of his inauguration, he could have done anything and it would have made things easier for him. He apparently chose to go the hard way and now his approval rating is at 45%. Go figure.

I am smoking this.

The 46% who claim to faovr Bush are from the right. If you have ever watched Fox news or listened to the Tea party crowd or the speakers in New Orleans last weekend, you might note that these folks don’t think Obama is pursuing Bush’s policies.

“I would argue that 14 months isn’t enough time to really make an assessment about where Obama wants to go with his Presidency.”

I think that is plenty of time given that we midterms coming up and then not too long after that the next Presidential horse race will begin as now there will be more politicking coming up rather than actual work accomplished.

You make a good point. I would add that the average citizen is probably too overworked and/or too dissinterested and/or too distracted to really analyze the situation in any meaningful way.

I think most people see their jobs, their homes, their lifestyle going down the hopper, and they look at BHO and see someone who’s pretty much doing eff all to rectify the situation. Those who have the energy to pay the slightest attention, also see BHO kissing the butts of bankers and Wall Street, and although the average citizen probably doesn’t totally understand what’s entailed, they “get” that THEY (the serfs) are being screwed by Mr. Hopey-Changey.

Say what you will, that’s what the “average” citizen sees. And they’re not wrong.

I’d say more than 46% want George W. Bush back — in the dock at the International Criminal Court in The Hague charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The tea party people couldn’t discuss a policy with you if they had to. What that vote means is ‘anybody but the black guy’

OK, I’ll bite.

How is Obama’s Iraq policy different?
How about Afghanistan, how is that different?
How about Indefinite Detention?
How about how O’s DoJ argued for FISA in court?
How about DADT?

You got to be smoking some really good stuff

So you cant even give one example?

I told you that I’m not going to play games with you. I’ve given my opinion and that’s it. If you want to take that to mean that I can’t come up with any examples then so be it. I’m not here to play games with you or to provide you with examples. I’m here to offer my subjective opinion.

Wake me when the economy improves.

Glad to, “wake-up, JC.”

The thing is that unlike the Bush world where everything is black and white, criticism of Obama does not equal support for George W Bush. Period. That’s a conservative principle.

I think JC meant the economy, Not the Dow Jones Industrials….

Don’t know if you’ve been reading the papers lately, but I don’t seem to recall that “W” gathered up any nations to commit to locking down plutonium and other nuclear materials. For starters.

I’m not excusing Obama’s performance (especially on the domestic side), but I’m pretty sure that some progress was made on an important issue in the past few days.

“…more politicking coming up rather than actual work accomplished.”

Perhaps that’s more of a structural problem than an Obama problem.

Gotto agree with you on that one!

See #81.

You offer a subjective opinion based on nothing. You wont even back up your claims with FACTS. How useful.

So let me guess. You just like Obama, think he is a good guy, and trying to do right. That about sum it up?

There’s a Rethug astroturf group that, in an effort to undermine the D Party and Obama, has been putting up billboards with Dubya’s stupid face and the caption, “Miss Me Yet?”.

The MSM is falling in lockstep to the Right Wing orders to promote this bullshit theme.

Did anyone do this when Dubya was President? That is, ask if we wanted The Clenis back?

I don’t think it happened. Id it did, it got no play.

This is a dedicated Dick Armey style smear campaign.

That said, Obama Sucks.

I think JC meant the economy, Not the Dow Jones Industrials….

But for neo-lib elite, are they not used interchangeably?

(oh, sorry, I meant to say neo-con elite)

They are all different to some extent. I will agree with you that they are not different enough.

But, except for Afghanistan, I don’t think the other issues are in play with very many voters.

Obama’s poll numbers are being driven by peoples perception of the economy.
And, I would agree with Twain on this, to a considerable extent by racism.

Even that treaty is based in Kabuki. First off, its optional. Secondly, its using different counting methods of the nukes. They claim a third, but when you compare it to how they used to count nukes for these treaties, its about 15%. And this still leaves us enough nukes to destroy the world a 100 times over.

At the same time we just re-issued our nuke policy, and it expressly says that we reserve the right to nuke non-nuclear countries that dont adhere to the NPT to our liking. Also the administration dispatched Hillary Clinton to go on shows and talk about how our nuclear deterent will remain strong and secure.

Your example is a great example of typical Obama Kabuki. Got another?

‘I’m sorry, I don’t think this can just be chalked up to the lingering high unemployment. This has to be the result of Obama..”

acting just like the criminal fucking monster he succeeded. He talks differently, but acts with the same disdain for the rule of law.

“Perhaps that’s more of a structural problem than an Obama problem.”

Where did I say there was a problem at all? You had said that 14 months wasn’t enough time to evaluate Obama and I said it was and now you’re just replying back with a red herring.

Why don’t you go back in the firedog archives and read some of her comments before passing judgement?

So let me guess. You just like Obama, think he is a good guy, and trying to do right. That about sum it up?

Have you even READ any of my comments? Try reading my comments at 17 and 41 before you try to shove your foot even deeper into your mouth.

But for neo-lib elite, are they not used interchangeably?

Apparently

yep

Oh, okay. I thought you’d be interested in a discussion about the intersection of politics and policy-making and its inherent pitfalls. My mistake.

I read them. And if you really believe all that, i dont comprehend how you can still support him. I’m left with, you must think he is a good guy or something.

This is what comes of Obama operating in office to try to make himself as indistinguishable from Bush as possible.

He can pat himself on the back – success.

Obama would be in the same dock for failing to prosecute known violations of International law.

as I’ve said all along.

Obama is putting a real bad face on being a progressive. He’s going to single handedly set the movement back 30 years.

*nods* the only thing worse than reelecting Obama would be electing a Republican. The only decent vote is a vote for a third party candidate whose parties aren’t committed to maintaining the rule of the monsters, which means, of course, a vote for a libertarian doesn’t qualify as a vote for decency.

Well, if you’re not against him, you must be for him./s

There are really no other choices in the world.

Calling Obama a progressive requires a strenuous exercise in doublethink followed by doublespeak.

Yes, there’s some kabuki in there, but at least it’s being talked about…which is more than can be said for the Cheney-Bush admin.

The only reason you would believe that is because you have no depth of thought. Criticism to you equals “I don’t support and should bash”, refusing to bash him gratuitously equals “(I) must fawn over him”. My world is not black and white. My world contains nuance and shades of gray and in some cases, even color. Looking at things as good or evil, right or wrong, black or white, good or bad is simplistic and unrealistic. Because I won’t help you bash him doesn’t signal mindless adoration.

I asked a simple question. What are those “most ways” you see Obama as different. So far you have evaded that completely with tangets. I guess that qualifies as “depth of thought” for you.

Oh if you are just talking about Kabuki then absolutely Obama is superior. His Kabuki is masterful in comparison to the shrub. I thought you meant substantively.

No question — History will record Obama as an abject failure for sweeping Cheney/Bush’s crimes under the rug, and continuing many of the same policies overtly and covertly.

You guys are getting pretty desperate over here.

I’m waiting to see a I hope he fails post.

Oops. You already did that on health care.

This post here is pretty ridiculous Blue texan.

Especiaily with your reasoning for the numbers.

“This has to be the result of Obama not consistently and forcefully distancing himself from Bush “.

Really.

“87% of GOP voters now say they would prefer Bush, a number a good deal higher than Bush’s approval rating within his party toward the tail end of his Presidency. Democrats predictably go for Obama by an 86/10 margin, and independents lean toward him as well by a 49/37 spread.”

Party lines anyone. What did you expect. 40% of the GOP to actually step out of the reich wing noise machine into reality and pick Obama.

You twisted those numbers in Fox News fashion.

No shame in the game hun.

They all suck. We are just peasants to be shat upon. Obama was different in how in your face he has been about breaking campaign promises.

A new era of transparency? Uniting the groups together??? Ha ha HAAAA. Epic fail.

“And, I would agree with Twain on this, to a considerabler extent by racism.”

Obama entered office with a nearly 70% approval rating – higher than Clinton, both Bushes, Reagan or Carter:
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-presapp0605-31.html
http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/gallup-daily-obama-job-approval.aspx
So I don’t think it’s racism that is driving down Obama’s poll numbers or else they wouldn’t have been so high to begin with.

Sonya Sotomayor, The new START treaty, his ability to speak coherently, extending trans protection to federal employees, a slightly greater concern about the environment, not turning the DOJ into a political wing of one party or the other, the law holding contractors responsible for the rape of their employees, not embarrassing the country every time he goes overseas…..
Is that enough for you? I told you I’m not going to help you gratuitously bash him. The bar that Bush set is extremely low but I’m not going to give you an excuse to bash ME because you want to pick a fight.

Public Policy Polling predicted Doug Hoffman would win by 16 or 17 points.

This isn’t the first time the US Govt swept it’s crimes under the rug.

You do know that.

Damn good point.

Thanks for dropping by, Rahm.

I was only responding to you – so how does your comment about me not apply to you? Afterall, all I did was disagree with you and I gave the reasons for my disagreement. Now you are saying the discussion you started isn’t relevant.

Here is a partial list of accomplishments:

Stimulus bill- Have you noted your $800 credit on your tax return- line 63?
Lily Ledbetter Act- expanded workers right to sue
Schipp expansion – expanded coverage to 4 million children
Public Land Bill- added 2 million acres
Credit card reform
Tobacco regulation- USDA regulatory control
Stem Cell research
National Service- expanded numbers
Health care- see http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/finalhcr.pdf
Sotomayor

WOW!

lol, funny to see the same old Obamabots defending him here no matter what, just like the 25% defended Bush all the time no matter what.

That’s right, remember the 25% approval rating??? And now 46% want him back??? You can say that’s just the right wing all you want, but the fact is that’s a HUGE jump from 25% wanting him to be prez to 46% wanting him to be Prez.

And it’s bullshit to keep saying we want everything to be exactly as it should be like we’re some sort child. Getting old.

Here’s the facts. At almost every issue so far, ALMOST EVERY ONE, Obama has used whatever tools and influence he has to move the issue to the right, and not to the left. No one expected him to change the world overnight. But we did expect him to use whatever tools and influence he does have to work in the direction that we’d like. Instead he’s worked in the opposite direction, and frequently in direct opposition to his campaign rhetoric (which makes him a liar).

Argued before the SCOTUS that he can declare a person a non-person and ineligible for any Constitutional rights. Declared he can authorize the assasination of American citizens abroad. Rendition, warrentless wiretapping, and even torture are mostly continuing. Supported and argued for way too many tax cuts as a stimulus rather than actual stimulus spending. Made back room deals to abandon the public option directly opposite of his rhetoric. Refused to hold anyone in the last administration accountable even though he constantly campaigned on a “return to the rule of law”. There is no rule of law when no one is held accountable for violating it. Instead he says we must look forward, not backward.

All of these things are OBAMA, not Congress, not the Republicans, and all are direct decisions that HE has made, and for which he is responsible. And all are more in line with Republican policies and even George W. Bush policies than with progressive or Democratic ones. And they most certainly ARE NOT “change we can believe in.”

But keep on defending him. It’s always a good laugh to see how far you have to bend reality and logic to do so. Fun read.

A couple of distinguishable differences come to mind. Bush set out to privatize Social Security. Also, does anyone remember his attempt to get approval for the use of “small tactical nucalar weapons?”

The Bush/Obama argument strikes me as kind of silly. Clearly it is not the voters who have the most influence on policy and the recent SCOTUS decision is sure to further distance the people from the policies decisions of the government. I suspect that for some years now the key power brokers are privately thinking long term global. These days the American middle class is to the global entrepreneurs what the American Indians once were to the settlers. Histories recurring episode of “Let them eat cake.”

Marx (the economist) wrote:
“Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society.”

Can today’s “society” compel capital in any way? I think not. “So it goes.”

“But this would be like in 1934, nearly half the country longing for the return of Hoover”

Barack “Stimulus” Obama, he of entitlement reform, pre-emptive health insurance bailout, more bigger financial industry bailout, and sustained unemployment, *is* the new Hoover.

Bush fucked up a 700 billion TARP and a two-plus trillion tax cut for the wealthy. Obama has not only refused to unfuck either one, he as doubled down on all of it, twice, to the tune of what, eight trillion now?

Bush might have been first to shit the bed, but his successor has refused to even try to unshit the bed, he enjoys chronic diarrhea, and he feasting on the body politic to make sure the shit is not going to end. Social Security Trust Fund next.

“No shame in the game.”

Funny, that’s what I was thinking when Obomba signed the health insurance profit protection act into law with 12 pens.

It is the American Way.

No answer gnome? I finally named a few examples off the top of my head and now you don’t want to play? I may be blond but I’m not stupid. Legitimate criticism doesn’t mean virulent hatred and refusal to hate doesn’t mean fawning devotion. There are plenty of those type of forums around though. Please feel free to surf around, they’re not hard to find.

[modnote: ok, please dial it back, remember to discuss the issues not each other - this applies to each of us.]

“I think that is plenty of time given that we midterms coming up and then not too long after that the next Presidential horse race will begin as now there will be more politicking coming up rather than actual work accomplished.”

I don’t agree that that “is plenty of time” to judge a presidency and its historical repercussions. On the other hand, your point about mid-terms and then 2012, prompted me to think that the constant campaign and rich monied interests absolutely drive policy-making. That is the structural problem to which I refer.

Sonya Sotomayor – Not claiming you didnt know it, but I gave you that one

The new START treaty – Typical Obama Kabuki I addressed in #89 (even the person who mentioned had to admit the kabuki aspects lol)

his ability to speak coherently – Reaching hard. Not surprising as I know there is little. Honestly I think this makes my point more than it makes yours.

extending trans protection to federal employees – Not sure what this is. Trans protection?

a slightly greater concern about the environment – Is that what continuing to peddle the myth of “clean coal” makes him? Or is it the offshore drilling and opening up more parts of Alaska for drilling. You assert something not backed up by his record. Cant wait for the cap and trade Wallstreet giveaway thats soon to come which does nothing to help the enviornment.

not turning the DOJ into a political wing of one party or the other – by continuing the “look forard and not backward” and ingoring war crimes, not only is he a war criminal, but its clearly politicizing the DOJ. Its a political concern as far as one can tell as to why he wont let them do their job. The fact that he is putting pressure on Holder about the KSM trial is another clear and stark example of how he plays politics with the DOJ just like Bush did.

the law holding contractors responsible for the rape of their employees – That was Al Franken

not embarrassing the country every time he goes overseas – yet The world is starting to see through the Kabuki. Soon he will be greated with protests just like Bush was. But for now I guess this is one.

So in general you have,” Sotomayor and he is not as openly embarrassing” I expect more from those who want my support, especially when they campaigned on so much more.

Why am I not surprised!
Great Gordon Highlanders, haven’t Obama and Clinton been doing their level best to rehabilitate him! Between Corporatist Obama refusing to prosecute and Clinton trying to make W look good down in Haiti.

It takes me more than 2 minutes to answer that many points.

Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Smart.

Democratic Party progressives are basically losers as you cannot get it into your minds that HRC LOST. Get over it, and get active for your issues. How many of you have written phoned or emailed your representatives or senators on issues? P-ing and moaning is about all you’re good for (judging from these comments)

Long live the Field Negroes~you know who you are

Here’s the details of the survey:
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_National_4141.pdf
For me I think the most interesting information comes from when you filter out the partisan responses:
“Independents lean slightly against the President as well, by a 41/45 margin.”
“Although independents disapprove of Obama on balance, they do prefer him to Bush by a 49/37 margin and that’s what puts him ahead on that measure.” (the 49/37 doesn’t look very good given how unpopular Bush was and that these are only the non-affiliated voters responding rather than the partisan averages)

Some may enjoy this

Democratic Party progressives are basically losers

Nice, Very Nice.

And it’s respectful. Kudos for U !

(the 49/37 doesn’t look very good given how unpopular Bush was and that these are only the non-affiliated voters responding rather than the partisan averages)

No, it doesn’t. Again, if it were against a generic Republican, that’s one thing. But Chimpy?

Good God!

thanks, did enjoy it.

In speaking with some folks in the ag community, the real estate/foreclosure problems could move into their market if ag prices drop.

Not so good news.

Again, if it were against a generic Republican, that’s one thing. But Chimpy?

and to emphasize one of oldfatguys’ points, chimpy’s approvals have gone from 25% to 46% in a few months.

maybe I’m not so bright in thinking that’s significant

Democratic Party progressives are basically losers

Do you have a partially severed middle finger on your right hand?

yes.

obama’s failures (due mostly to continuing failed bush policies) will henceforth be labeled ‘progressive’ or ‘liberal’ failures. obama is happy to be called a progressive and the right-wing wurlitzer is happy to label him as such. except that the policies are not progressive.

There will be no foreclosure problems in the agricultural sector anytime soon. Farm real estate is very strong and is in strong economic hands.

It’s the patronizing. Chimpy’s idiocy curled my toenails, but Obomba’s condescension makes me want to punch his lying face.

[modnote: please no violence.]

Diva… you’re well named.

HRC and “progressive” shouldn’t be in the same sentence. HRC wasn’t progressive. Neither was Obama. Neither was Edwards. The only progressive running was Kucinich, as he’s, at best, charisma challenged.

The last candidate I’ve been excited about was Howard Dean. I preferred Bill Bradley to Gore. Gary Hart was the first candidate I got excited about. Smart guy who wasn’t afraid of admitting many problems are complicated and require complicated solutions. Didn’t treat voters like children.

It is — but part of that’s Obama’s fault.

The Reaganites constantly blamed everything on Carter. FDR never let people forget about Hoover.

Can’t anyone play this game?

This poll does not surprise me, nor does the new one today, with Obama at an all-time low in popularity.

The reason for his awful numbers are simple.

Obama is governing like a moderate Republican. The GOP would never accept him anyway, though all his legislation is crafted with them in mind. The base of the Democratic party has been treated with absolute disdain. It is why the alleged health care reform is such a bad joke. People like me would never desert a Democratic president….or party…until now.

The only chance Democrats, and neo-libs like Obama have, is to start legislating on Democratic platforms they campaigned on.

Why would ANY Democrat want to get in the trenches for the Dems in office now?? I do not believe in the party that Rahm Emanuel hijacked. They have sold their sould in a calculated bet to get re-election campaign dollars from lobbyists.

The sad thing is that the alleged health care reform is so pathetic, and so badly crafted, that there will be few apparent benefits this election cycle, which will guarantee massive Democratic losses in November.

If Emanuel is shown the door, and Obama makes good on some promises, there may be a slight chance I will come back in the fold. I am not holding my breath.

I am even willing to bet that Obama will try to replace the outgoing liberal Supreme Court justice with a moderate, which is totally unacceptable, because it moves the balance, oncve more, to the right.

But nobody ever accused Obama of governing with intelligence.

This really points to the failure of the Obama administration to lead, and lead a radically different direction than the Bush administration. If Obama supporters, which I am, are really honest, they will admit there are too many similarities in the administrations, especially on war and civil liberty issues. Even on finance issues, this president is similar to Bush. The tinker around the edges, non-confrontational, middle of the road approach to governing by Obama has left many progressives feeling left at the altar, besides the fact it will not solve the long standing, serious problems of inequality, inefficiency, and over militarization.

I voted for Obama for one reason and one reason only, the supreme court, and even there he is a disapointment. With appointments like Sotomayor, and the expected middle of the road nominee, like Kagan, he has been weak. I full well understood the conservative, non-confrontational nature of this President, and when he proclaimed he would run his administration like Lincoln, with a team of rivals, I knew not much economically, internationally, financially, or civil liberty wise would change. This should have warned his die hard supporters of the old Bill Clinton, third-way, New Democrat approach to governing. In other words, cater to big business, while ignoring your progressive base; an approach to strengthening the richest factions of America with deregulation bills like the Telecommunications Act of 1996, the passage of NAFTA and other free trade agreements, and repealing Glass Steagall. In my opinion, bipartisanship should have lower place in the American lexicon than Socialism.

I’m not surprised 46 percent would say they want Bush back. The true number is probably around 40 percent as these kind of poll questions skew anti-incumbent.

Tell that two my two farmer friends who are close to bankruptcy because short term credit has dried up.

Sorry, how about “harshly interrogate” him?

Apparently there’s also a 50-50 split on the Confederacy.

There will be no foreclosure problems in the agricultural sector anytime soon. Farm real estate is very strong and is in strong economic hands.

Where do you live?

Time for some road trips friend.

Yes, I realize that a few, very few, are in trouble, but the agricultural sector is very strong. There are virtually no farm real estate foreclosures in process or looming.

Two years in a row of less than $4 corn and $10 beans and a rise in diesel of another $1/gallon, and most large grain operators will tank.

On the golden buckle of the corn belt.

Very well stated. Sums up my feelings, as well.

I ‘m pretty sure the majority would want Clinton back.

Two years in a row of less than $4 corn and $10 beans and a rise in diesel of another $1/gallon, and most large grain operators will tank

.

We spoke to some locals last night, At $3.50 corn, these guys are seeing $100/acre gross profit this coming season. Their’s is not the best soil, but a long ways above average.

Land prices are at a near all time high. Not looking so good.

Most large grain operators are not about to tank.

As a fellow Iowan and as an owner of agricultural real estate in your fair county, I can assure you that things are much better that you have been led to believe.

I am leaving this interwebs now, so if I dont respond to anymore of your points, its not because I cant since you seem to feel the point of these discussions is to declare victory or something. My goal is to get people to challenge their own assumptions. A lot of Obama’s support seems to come from assumptions about him instead of looking at his ACTIONS.

Anyway, I dont think your list showed Obama as different than Bush in most ways when you line it up next to the growing list of ACTIONS that Obama has taken that are perfectly in line with Bush era practices.

He’s taking the high road to the bottom.

If Obama did what he swore to do, protect and defend the constitution , torture prosecutions would have been the first order of business and he failed miserably.

He would have righted the ship of state, would have plastered those brutal torture pictures all over the front pages, locked up george and dick and these polls numbers would have been 95% to 5%. Sure it would have torn up the country because george and dick tore up the constitution but because you fear necessary cancer surgery doesn’t mean you ignore it and it goes away. So instead he took it a step further and accepted the mantle of Judge Jury and Executioner in his policy of assassination of American citizens.

Well, I know you aren’t supposed to say things like this, but let’s face it – Americans on the whole are dumb as bricks. When Caligula made a horse a member of the Roman Senate, that was the last straw and people finally realized he was batshit crazy. This country put Bush in the White House and 46% would do it again. Do the math.

I guess most of you didn’t watch a news program last night, or listen to a decent radio news show…

I actually almost cried last night. As someone who did some of my first Peace Marching at an Air Force Base Gate back in 1958 over the question of putting nukes on constantly ready to fire missiles, and got hit with some rotten fruit while marching for the same cause at Easter in Chicago in 1958, …and then a few years later worked with Women’s Strike For Peace in attempting to get a stop to atmospheric Nuclear Testing, because the fall out was polluting the milk…and as someone who raised money for the crews that went into the Pacific Nuclear Test Range to measure fallout, and make an issue of it — as a charter member of the Student Peace Union, founded at the U of Chicago in 1958 — and then many more petition signing and matching events — and then in the 1980′s the Nuclear Freeze Movement

I AM DAMN TIRED OF “OH SO PROGRESSIVE” OBAMA CRITICS HAVING ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE ABOUT WHAT HE HAS DONE WELL.

Yesterday he was surrounded by 50 national leaders of countries with some Nuclear Capacity, signing on to a process to solve a problem far more dangerous than what we picked up on in the early 60′s — Radioactive Milk from Cows that ate Radioactive Grass! A problem that was solved because of public pressure, and public agreement that it should be solved. Kennedy’s partial Test Ban Treaty was a beginning, That’s how I feel about yesterday’s agreement to move forward on safeing Nuclear Materials. Maybe they will succeed, maybe they won’t, but the cynics of the world who can’t see the value in trying to take a big step, sure as hell make no contribution to possible success.

Can any of you imagine George Bush (who could not pronounce Nuclear) organizing such a meeting? Did he ever suggest forging a major international effort to address the problem? (Like Hell). Bush actually wanted to start a program to build more, much more modern Nuclear Bombs.

And you guys can’t see the difference between Bush and Obama. You Ain’t looking.

I hate to sound even more depressing, but I think 46% support Bush because they think Obama is very DIFFERENT than Bush. You say it’s because they are similar, but I think it’s because they are viewed as dissimilar. A huge section of the nation thinks Obama is a “communist” whereas Bush is considered the “capitalist.” Never mind the fact that the defense and banking industries gave more campaign dollars to Obama than any other candidate including McCain. We need to hammer home that Obama won most campaign dollars from the defense and banking industries in order to stop people from calling him a “communist” who hates America. It muddies the debate. The guy is a crony capitalist and a corporatist.

Sara

I do respect all that you’ve done, been involved with and your sentiments. I am not a spring chicken either.

My thoughts currently are influenced by what the ‘O’ has done, his actions vs what his words have been.

As such, I have learned I must carefully look at his actions. Thus I need to look very closely at the fine print of the Nuclear Reduction Agreement as there is a chance this new agreement only applies to older ‘obsolete’ weapons and does not apply to the newer ‘enhanced radiation’ devices.

I do not enjoy being cynical but have learned during the past 15 months that I must.

Ditto, if Obama is a socialist its only because the big corporations are fine with socialism and/or benefit from it. One way or the other, he does what big corporations want– from defense to Wall Street. I agree with you, he is a big corporatist.

Someone needs to inform Wall Street immediately of this!

“As such, I have learned I must carefully look at his actions. Thus I need to look very closely at the fine print of the Nuclear Reduction Agreement as there is a chance this new agreement only applies to older ‘obsolete’ weapons and does not apply to the newer ‘enhanced radiation’ devices.”

It doesn’t apply to weapons at all, it applies to any fissionable material that could be made into a weapon by non-state actors. And it isn’t a treaty, it is a process agreement about first declaring enriched material, and then arranging to safe it so it cannot be stolen by non-state actors to make a weapon. The next step is next month when the UN Charter of the International Atomic Energy Commission comes up for review. The plan is for these 50 countries to lead strengthening of IAEA’s inspection protocals, which will be necessary to verification of any process of safeing Nuclear Materials. I should add, one significant success here was bringing China very much onboard.

The Nuclear Reduction Agreement with the Russians is the follow on to START that expired last December. That was signed ten days ago. It is a bi-lateral Treaty that must now go to the Senate. The US and Russians negotiated for over a year, and I suspect the agreed limits are the best the two could agree upon at this time. Of course it isn’t perfect — but it was the best they could do this round. If Obama gave up too much, it would never pass the Senate. It does significantly up-date verification proceedures.

Someone desperately needs to inform Wall street of this!

Wall Street already knows it has Obama in its pocket. From the multi-trillion dollar bail out to a lame re-regulatory agenda pushed by Obama — you can bet they already know!

Thanks Sara – A Very Good Synopsis.

as you were attempting so many years ago to shine light and awareness to the issue of nuclear arms and the madness, I was, at times, sitting in nuclear device carrying aircraft, waiting for the orders to go. So I’ve felt and experienced the terror, but from a different perspective.

Thanks for keeping the faith Sara

Obama is not like Bush, he is worse. List what he’s done that’s substantively different from Bush? (Grammar and pronunciation don’t count.) He’s worse because he’s better at sugarcoating and selling Bush’s policies.

Secondly, why would anyone care to listen to how well he SELLS his stuff? So he sells black and forcefully calls it white? That’s good enough? At this point, I have shut my ears to any speeches whatsoever. They count for nothing, nada, zilch, zip. Pay attention only, only, only to what they DO, please!

Mr. speechifier has been a near total failure in controlling and winning the public discourse message. So given the heavy corporate media bias to everything anti-democrat and pro-denigraiton of everything liberal, and given that obama is 100% true blue corportist during a very anti-corporation period, what other result would anyone sentient person expect. The only surprise has been that what appeared to be a very slick and insightful campaign team has turned out to be so inept and tone-deaf at governing.

More of our HCR in action

Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., has canceled a hearing intended to grill CEOs who took a charge against profits because of the health care reform bill.
The cancellation came after they realized what everyone already knew – that the companies were required to do what they did because of accounting rules. Waxman and others had reacted with outrage and accused the companies of doing it – in essence, to make health care reform look bad.
AT&T took a $1 billion charge and other companies including Caterpillar, John Deere, and Valero Energy, and 3M took hundreds of millions in charges because of the health care reforms.
The new bill ended a tax break intended to make it attractive for the companies to keep their retirees on company drug benefit plans instead of ending those plans and pushing them into Medicare which would have cost the government much more money.

So, is no change really possible? Look what Gorbachev accomplished! If Obama wished to, he could easily do that. As a person that supposedly ran a spectacular election campaign, he would find a way. Heck, I don’t have to show him how. But, he doesn’t WISH to do any of that. He has killed Hope, something that even GWB couldn’t lay claim to. He is deserving of all the scorn that people heap on his head.

Hard to argue with that “in sync with Bush” list. Sadly. And that as much as anything is likely to explain polls like this. The people who voted for change didn’t get it and are disappointed to point of feeling estranged from politics in general and the Democratic “We now embrace right wing Republican ideas!” Party in particular. And the Republicans/people who voted against Obama didn’t want him in the first place and are not (generally) willing to concede that what they are getting is effectively Bush’s third term.

How is Obama better than Bush? My list says that Obama doesn’t mangle the language like Bush did…and that’s really about it. There are other areas where there are differences around the margins, but I won’t go farther than that.

Tell ya what, if the choice is to have a Democratic congress and senate and grassroots political movement putting on a united front in opposition to a president like Dubya in his last few years of office and having a Democratic congress and senate falling in line behind Republican ideas that are now wearing a Democratic label, I can’t say that I wouldn’t choose the former.

Obama is a disaster for me based on the abdication of actual Democratic principles. The Democratic Party under Obama is as much (if not more) the party of Wall Street and big corporations as the Republicans. And the “health care” bill is nothing if not proof of that.

Bottom line is that for some of the reasons I just touched on, I find that poll to be absolutely believable. It comes down to dancing with the devil you know…

I dunno. I think comments 2, 3 and 4 sort of make the case for why people might feel that way.

Not sure if you are aware but, U.S. – Russian Nuclear Arms Control Talks have been occurring since 1969.

Info – U.S.-Russian Nuclear Arms Control Agreements at a Glance

Obama is horrible. I will be surprised if he runs for re-election.

And so you want Chimpy and darth back??? Have you lost your mind?? Did your IQ just drop from 99 to 6 ?? Do you want the rest of the world to laugh louder?? Do you want the US economy to crash?? Do you want US Un-Employment to be 65% ? Do you want to start a third, maybe fourth war?? At 420 BILLION A DAY??? Are you completely insane??

[edited by mod.]

[modnote: no violence, and please refrain from personal attacks.]

Whatever this is based on, a poll, or a telephone survey, or someone’s Ouija board, it’s crap. Well, unless they ONLY polled in tabaccy-chawing, teabag-wearin’ enclaves like South Carolina. It’s shit.

ya never know Marion, We’re a good distance from tabaccy-chawing or teabag-wearin’ encalves.

And the ‘O’, he’s lost quite a bit of popularity around here also. But I imagine there are areas where he is still thought of highly.

http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/2010/04/14/poll-voters-split-on-pres-obama-vs-bush/

There never has been a left wing president in the US and there never will be. Obama, like every other prez, hates real leftists. Leftism was born and stays in Europe. Yes, some European immigrants tried to inject some leftist ideas into the US bloodstream in the late 19th/early 20th century–but mainly it’s been a big failure.

I remember when Hillary Clinton said she wouldn’t meet with the leftist candidate in France against Sarkozy because she didn’t agree with her politics. Billary Clinton and the rest are right wingers, let’s face it!

like most of you, i’m very disgusted with a lot of obama’s policies. however, these polls are meaningless. it’s a media game to shock and awe the the public. remember, after the republican convention mc’cain and palin were ahead in the polls. this poll is red meat for both the right and the left.
bush can’t run and neither can clinton. at least we are more respected around the world than we have been in the last eight years. i think that has real meaning.

Billary is a Goldwater Girl at Heart !

And perhaps we could rally some opposition. With Obama as author of all the bad stuff, there’s no push-back except for The Crazy.

Oh, c’mon EDP. You know that if Sarah asked for directions to the restroom, you’d walk her back there & give her a twirly.

The polling should be no surprise. Both W and Obama have the same approach to governance. No sense of responsibility. They both just pander to narrow groups of special interests to get by. They both are deaf to the center of the country. Both take the attitude that they just know better than anyone else. Personally, I consider Obama the super Bush of bad government, which was no surprise. I just don’t vote for people like these two guys (and I didn’t vote for their opponents either). Awful!