[Welcome Professor Arnold Ludwig, and Host eCAHNnomics.]
[As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
King of the Mountain—The Nature of Political Leadership
“The Nature of Political Leadership.” Think about what that means. Have you ever asked yourself what the fundamental nature of political leadership is? Prof. Ludwig is a psychiatrist, a student of human nature, not a political scientist.
The short-short-version is alpha male. Humans try to create post evolutionary times, but with bodies, limbic, and other systems that are stuck in evolutionary times.
You don’t need to ‘believe’ that conclusion. Because Prof. Ludwig did not just sit in his ivory tower at the University of Kentucky and think about it. What is so valuable about this book is that it is empirical. Evidence—imagine that!
Professor Ludwig’s study involved all leaders of all countries in the 20th century. Eighteen years in preparation, the study included 1,941 rulers of 199 countries. There were enough biographical data to do in-depth analysis for a robust subset of 377 of them. The intense amount of empirical data not only makes conclusions highly supportable, but provides ongoing opportunities for study and learning.
This book should be especially valuable for the FDL community. We have high expectations for leaders, especially for the U.S. president, and endlessly discuss his shortcomings. Our expectations turn out to be completely unreasonable according to Prof. Ludwig’s findings. No identifiable form of intelligence, talent, genius or experience are necessary for ruling a country, only an intense desire to get to the top coupled with the wiliness and other skills to make it happen. Any jerk can make it, and Ludwig’s book is peppered with many wry, amusing, disappointing anecdotes to prove that point, including among 20th century U.S. presidents.
The book is not a dry tome. It is written for a general audience, and easily accessible. The just-mentioned anecdotes are examples of the lively, interesting writing.
Returning to the alpha-male concept, of all leaders, a mere 1.4% were women. Of the 377 studied in detail, 2.4% were women, and only 0.8% were NOT widows-of or daughters-of. The Margaret Thatchers and Golda Meirs are rare indeed, and are often described with metallic words (‘steely’), what I’ll refer to as alpha-females. Anyone expecting a different tone of leadership from a female leader should abandon that hope; the only way she can get the job is to be just like the guys, or probably more so. It was when I first read this book in 2002 that I understood why it is so frustratingly difficult for women to get to the top. I don’t like the explanation, because the uphill battle for women is all the greater within the context of this discouraging model. But there you have it, and there’s not much to be done about it. Easy to see how the ‘first’ turned out to be an African-American man, rather than a white woman, even though she is a ‘wife-of.’
Some meat on the bones. Ludwig categorizes leaders into six types: democrats (47%), monarchs (10%), tyrants (6%), visionaries (7%), authoritarians (18%), and transitionals (12%). Most are easy to understand but a few clarifications. Tyrants impose their will on their societies with whatever means it takes, including chaos; authoritarians are interested in an orderly society. Transitionals, of whom there were many in the 20th century owing to the deaths of empires and monarchies, often referred to as ‘fathers’ of their countries, guide those countries toward democracy, but themselves are more like authoritarians. Visionaries change the entire nature of their country while they are rulers—most for the worst, a few for the better. Hitler and Pol Pot are among the notorious examples, Atatürk would be regarded as an admiral example, and many are controversial with mixed positive/negative accomplishments, like Mao Zedong.
Those six categories contain large differences in how hard-wired alpha male behavior is and much of the book concerns the extent to which these categories rank by alpha-maleness, and why.
What are the alpha male characteristics, judging from primates?
* A single ruler; the model extends all the way down to family unit, perhaps owing to the vulnerable state of primate infants, especially humans
* Breeding advantage, which includes the well known sexual behaviors
* Physical prowess.
Other forms of societal organization that do not include these features are found in the animal kingdom, so it is not the only evolutionary model; but it is the primate model.
How does the system work? Perks of power, like greater access to women, more children, greater power and wealth, and deference by subjects, draw in more candidates than can win. It’s a dangerous game. Prominent rulers spent time in jail before gaining their objective, like Hitler, Mandela. Coup initiators. War heroes. Assassinations or attempts.
There is material on how they have been raised, formative experiences and mental and emotional stability (ranges the gamut), but I’ll skip ahead and finish with the political greatness scale (PGS). These measures characterize the lives of the immortal greats, like Caesar, Napoleon, Darius, Alexander the Great, Washington, Lincoln and others of their historic status. Do not confuse the term ‘great leader’ with a leader considered to be good for his country. Eleven scalable (usually 0 to 3) factors are included (pp. 276-77): Something from Nothing; More Than Before; Staying Power; Military Prowess; Social Engineering; Economics; Statesmanship; Ideology; Moral Exemplar; Political Legacy; Population of Country.
And the winners are:
| 1 | Atatürk | 31 | Visionary |
| 2 | Mao Zedong | 30 | Visionary |
| 3 | Franklin Delano Roosevelt | 30 | Democrat |
| 4 | Josef Stalin | 29 | Visionary |
| 5 | Vladimir Lenin | 28 | Visionary |
| 6 | Ho Chi Minh | 27 | Visionary |
| 7 | Charles de Gaulle | 27 | Democrat |
| 8 | Deng Xiaoping | 27 | Authoritarian |
| 9 | Benito Mussolini | 26 | Visionary |
| 10 | Adolf Hitler | 25 | Visionary |
| 11 | Jawaharlal Nehru | 25 | Transitional |
| 12 | Ibn Saud | 25 | Monarch |
| 13 | Suharto | 25 | Authoritarian |
| 14 | Josip Broz Tito | 25 | Authoritarian |
The number is the PGS total. Note the preponderance of visionaries, who changed their whole society while they were in power. Democrats, while half the sample, have only two entries in the top 14 (top 10 with a five-way tie for 10th), handicapped by their limited terms in office, of whom FDR was a notable exception.
Well, that gives you a taste of the endless topics of discussion and depth and breadth of information in this marvelous book.
Have at it in the comments!



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Welcome to Firedoglake – very glad to have you with us today!
Arnold, Welcome to the Lake.
eCAHNomics, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Welcome to the book salon, Prof. Ludwig, and thanks Bev for your preparation.
Prof. Ludwig, you were interviewed by Brian Lamb after your book originally came out in 2002 (paperback last year). What has been the professional reception of this work?
So glad to be on the program.
Welcome Prof. Ludwig!
eCAHN, thanks for hosting.
Hello eCAHN and Arnold, thanks for coming.
The book became a best seller on Amazon.com and Barnes and Noble for one week and then the Publisher ran out of books and none were printed for one month so the initial response died down.
Perhaps you could give people a flavor of the variety of leaders you studied by picking one or two of your favorites and talking about how/why they got to be leaders, or some other aspect of their lives.
I realize most of the top rulers were men, but which female ruler was at the top of the scale? And what class was she in?
That seems like unfortunate planning. Has your study had influence in the academic world?
I studied every leader of every country during the 20th century (almost 2,000) but focused on about 350 of them intensively. On my Political Greatness Scale, some of the top leaders were Ataturk, FDR, Churchill, Mao zeDung, etc, Ataturk was particularly fascinating since he not only overthrew the Ottoman kingdom but changed the very nature of Turkey, etc. All the great leaders had a major impact on their countries. In addition, it was interesting to see how many leaders ran their countries down. That is a brief response to your question.
My guess would be Thatcher, with a 21 on the PGS. That puts her in the top third. Arnold, correct me if I’m wrong. Meir gets a 12. I’ll be back with some more when I scan the list.
What prompted you to embark on this huge project? What was the spark?
Thank you for joining us, Professor Ludwig. So where would, say, George W. Bush or Barack Obama (so far) fit in on this continuum?
My rcollection is it was Margaret Thatcher.
I’m just finishing a biography of Ataturk. The prototypical alpha male. And fascinating. Never thought of the difficulties involved in requiring everyone to have surnames for the first time, or changing to the Latin alphabet to name two of the changes that he made that are not thought about much. And he was the first, I think, leader of an Islamic country who separated mosque & state, and did it without a major revolution, meaning one involving rioting or civil war.
Indira Gandhi gets 19 on PGS, also in the top third.
Good question. Actually, the study was an extension of a prior one dealing with the relation of creative achievement with madness. I studied 18 different professional groups. In all the scientific and artistic groups, it was possible to objectively assess a product. With the politicians, there was nothing substantial. This intrigued me, so I embarked on this 18 year project to evaluate how to judge political greatness. One thing led to another, and I decided to look at all the rulers in all the countries of the world over the past century
Greetings Prof. Ludwig, thanks for being here today.
From your studies, what one or two leaders present the most interesting, implausible, or otherwise fascinating case for rising to power?
I suppose another way to ask, is what one or two interested you the most?
It’s hard to say since they were not my subjects. Also, the full stories are not in on either of them. I judged most of the rulers over an entire lifespan, and these two are still ;
politically alive.
OTOH, Kim Campbell, Canada, gets only a 6, pretty close to the bottom. She didn’t do anything much and wasn’t in office long.
You are absolutely right. Ataturk’s achievements are phenomenal. However, there are currently movements in Turkey to dislodge him from his pedestal and undermine many of his accomplishments
Thank you for being here Professor. I am sorry the library of our 4th largest city, Houston, apparently didn’t notice your book was a best seller. Given that we have only about 14% females in congress, did your study turn up interesting gender differences? Did those characteristicts rank differently gender wise?
Thank-you Prof. Ludwig, eCAHN, and Bev. I lack sufficient familiarity with the work to ask pertinent questions but will be happy to follow along quietly.
I was going to ask you a related question, which you can also give the same answer. Since your model is alpha male, and military experience is one characteristic of that, why do you think that in the last 2 elections, the seemingly greater alpha male war heroes, Kerry & McCain, lost?
Good question. Worldwide over the 20th century, less than 3% of the rulers were women, and about half of them were either the daughters or wives of former rulers.
How would you rate/comapre Clinton, Bush, and Obama? Do you have a parameter which measures minimal effectiveness at governance? Have you considered the empty suit hypothesis: Reagan, Bush II, Obama, where leaders are chosen by parties/elites precisely because of their vacuousness? Also have you considered extending your analysis beyond individual leaders to the elites which support them? If you have, what do you think of our current elites?
Hi there Prof. Ludwig, I’m so glad you’re here with us today.
I’ve always been a people watcher and a question asker. I want to ask why one person makes bigger, better, harder, greedier choices than another.
I realize the answer’s probably a big can of worms, but if you had to give a concise answer, which you of course have the choice not to *G*, what’s your impression?
Thank you kindly, sir.
Thanks ECahn and Professor Ludwig.
I have a few questions: 1. Does an Alpha male need a community to be recognized as a leader? 2. Can a leader be a non-Alpha but get support from less-recognized Alpha types?
Some government leaders speak softly and gently, yet we know they have clout. So, 3. Are there Alpha types in the shadows we don’t know about because they seem “invisible” and yet they have influence?
You are a Professor of psychiatry, correct?
So it is possible to be “mad” and be an effective ruler?
And by “mad” is that generally bipolar? I’m assuming schizophrenia might be more debilitating
I’m not sure of the reasons. I have not analysed those elections in detail. Usually,under times of war, citizens tend to back incumbents unless of course they are losing.
Part of the definition of alpha male is that there is a SINGLE leader. I’ll be interested to see how Arnold brings in the issue of the millieu in which that leader sits, although that was not what he studied.
Wow. I think I could get another book out of answering your astute questions. Because of the format for discourse, I can’t come up with short answers to them. Perhaps over a glass of wine we might have a more in-depth discussion.
Perhaps some other examples of vacuous rulers who you did study might give some insight.
Yes, I am a Professor of Psychiatry. Yes, it not only is possible to be mentally ill as a ruler but it is fairly common. I give the statistics in my book. Among the many rulers, I found numberous alcoholics (Ataturk and Churchhill. eg), bizarre crazt ones (Idi Amin), drug addicts, seriously depressed and manic ones and even brain damages ones (e.g. Regan with Alzheimers)
“The number is the PGS total. Note the preponderance of visionaries, who changed their whole society while they were in power”
Genghis Khan would be a visionary he certainly changed the Mongols from unorganized raiders into a world conquering army and he was great for women’s rights he stopped the Mongol practice of kidnapping bribes from other tribes.
“Ludwig categorizes leaders into six types: democrats (47%), monarchs (10%), tyrants (6%), visionaries (7%), authoritarians (18%), and transitionals (12%). ”
I could also see him as an Authoritarian but a competent one Bush what ever leadership style he was I lean toward Figurehead or Puppet has given Authoritarians a bad name for a generation.
Thanks, eCAHN, and welcome Prof. Ludwig.
I’m wondering if you came across other leaders like GWBush, who handed his/her second in command such power as Bush gave Cheney?
In short, the answer has to do with an interaction between genetics (biology) and the environment.
Oh, I forgot to mention. Reagan gets a 22 on the PGS, one of the highest ranking U.S. prez of 20th Century. I know no one here will be happy about that, and I think it has a lot to do with restoring the country to prosperity. As an economist, I would peel that back another layer and say that Reagan didn’t have a lot to do with that. But the hard fact remains that it happened on Reagan’s watch.
Herbert Hoover and Obama are what leadership style? They seem both to have the same protect WallStreet and distaste for government regulation. Though Obama seems to want to be compared to Reagan.
That’s what I thought. DNA, nature, luck and nurture.
Some rulers even let their spouses run the country. Other rulers were so weak, they followed the dictates of their generals or were corrupted by wealthy entrepreneurs.
Prof. Ludwig, are Ego and Narcissism factors in a powerfu leader?
If less than one percent in your study were non-spouse etc. women, in other words 18?, is that enough to be able to say anything about their type of leadership? Do they get there in different ways?
Are you thinking about further study of the next tier down that would have likely have a larger sample of female leadership?
A general question would be: how did Prof. Ludwig determine which one class a leader would be slotted into when leaders exhibit characteristics of several of the classes?
You are right. But don’t neglect that it was on Reagan’s watch that the Soviet Union began falling apart.
Sounds interesting link?
Well, then, in what sense were those alpha males? Only because they made it to the purported top of the mountain?
In short, yes. When I studied the characteristics of the greatest leaders, dominance, contrariness, charisma and vanity were some of the ones most shared in common.
Did Saddam Hussein rate close to Stalin? Saddam liked to compare himself to Stalin. Stalin started out I believe as a bankrobber with perhaps a political twist in Georgia. Saddam was supposed to have been some kind of political thug/assassin in his early days.
That sure explains a lot about sex scandals.
Professor Ludwig, is there a penalty in US ruling effectiveness compared to most of the rest of the world (especially Europe) for sex scandals? It seems to me that the US Puritanical approach to how people should live might affect the numbers here, when, as pointed out, the biological aspects of the alpha male concept are otherwise.
The raters agreed on the category. Yes, in many cases there was an overlap of traits, so a judgement had to be made about which ones were paramount.
Ah yes, also not owing to Reagan: What do OBL, the Pope, and Reagan all have in common? They all take single-handed credit for the fall of the Soviet Union. When, more fully, it fell of its own weight, and Gorbachev, 24 on the PGS, just missing the top 10 cutoff, sheparded it peacefully.
No, Saddam Hussein was a petty tyrant and lost 4 wars. Stalin rated much higher because he extended the Soviet Union, spread an ideology, etc. Even though he engaged in many cruel and crimimal acts, his impact on the country and world were pheneomenal.
Saddam Hussein got a 12, middle third, on the PGS, for point of reference.
Agreed also can we predict how a leader will react in general terms once their leadership style is identified? That would prove the theory.
I admit leadership classes do overlap which makes things difficult but defining characteristics should give us a general idea provided stress does not force them into different behavior.
Still how they react to different kinds of stress should be defined and give us a pattern to work with.
Where did Eisenhower land on the PGS scale?
But they had similar backgrounds and methods could the difference be competence?
Yes, my Political Greatness Scale would provide a way to rate ineffective leaders, who, as the results showed are unbelievable numerous.
My recollection was Eisenhower was about middling on the Political Greatness Scale.
Ike was 18, top third.
I knew I should have had the ranking of 20th C U.S. prez done in advance. My apologies. I’ll do it & post it in a follow up diary.
TR gets a 23, and, usually overlooked these day, McKinley get a 20-lots of foreign adventures.
i am luking and learning,thanks ECAN !
Thanks,
Thanks – I thought he might rank fairly high, being a winning general and a Prez.
My prior study was reported in “The Price of Greatness”
Anyone expecting a different tone of leadership from a female leader should abandon that hope; the only way she can get the job is to be just like the guys, or probably more so.
Anyone needing empirical evidence for the truth of this should just ask any secretary you might know. I worked for some women in the entertainment business and they are pretty scary. They turn it up to eleven.
They were officers who took orders and not leaders who made plans they could lead men but with no planing ability well in Rumble Fish a good Book a gang member tells the main character he could lead the gangs but unlike his brother he would not be able to hold on to the job.
Arnold,
A more general Q I have come up with goes like this. You argue that the alpha male leadership model is pro-survival. Over the course of the 20th century, leadership of countries has transitioned to many more democracies. Leaders of democracies have much lesser alpha male characteristics than other categories. Does that mean that the human race is headed in an anti-survival direction?
Yes, but neither was running against someone who was bursting with alpha maleness either.
Ditto Wall St.
Your observations are pertinent. Actually, all categories of male rulers indulged in extramarital affairs at a much higher rate than the general public. Among tyrants, however, the percentage was over 90%, with the least percentage (but higher than average) among democratic rulers.
I think we should be careful with that, there is lots of evidence that indicates that when women behave in exactly the same nasty way as a man, people react to her AS IF she were much worse than him.
quietly lurking and reading the intro to the book salon and the comments….. another lesson in history of the 20th century rulers…
Wouldn’t a study of the led be equally useful?
Two groups that have received some comment from the political bloggers and writers are 1) the Germans who allowed or helped Adolph Hitler become Chancellor; 2) the contemporary US electorate who brought to the White House, Reagan, Clinton, BushII and now Obama.
The first group is treated with a mixture of condemnation and understanding, I find. Condemnation for not caring about the brutality of the man it made their leader. Understanding of the suffering of the German people through unemployment and inflation during the Weimar period preceding Hitler’s coming to power.
The second group is often chided for its passivity, gullibility, political naivety and ignorance. The preference and attention of Americans to celebrities, sports heroes, business leaders is well known as is their ignorance of their own history and political institutions.
“It takes two to tango”, the saying goes. The question begs: could Obama have risen to Prime Minister in England, in France or Germany? Could he have fought off the oligarchs in post-Gorbachev Russia? Are such power hungry individuals able to tailor their behavior to the political power base no matter where they are?
Power corrupts absolute Power corrupts absolutely do rulers with absolute power handed to them tend to rate lower because nobody can tell them they made a mistake Bush seems the Prime example.
Do leaders who create absolute power perform better because in the beginning they must make deals/consult with others?
I read that too. Thanks for that as well. It was very illuminating about the emotional disorders link. I love your empirical work.
I bet. Don’t know how longer we get to interact with Prof. Ludwig, but thank you both ever so much.
Ha! You put your finger on the woman’s dilemma.
Demi, I fear you are right. Actually, the female leaders in the 20th century often had to act even more macho than the males. Margaret Thatcher, for example, was known as the Steel lady. When taken all together,some have referred to them as “ball breakers.”
There’s lots to be careful of. We’re looking at evidence and patterns of human behavior. Not judging, but acknowledging and being aware.
Thanks for putting it that way. Yes, what is it about the alpha male model that the followers feel comfortable with? Of course, the study would me much more difficult. 1,941 rulers can be identified & studied. To study the followers, how would you structure it? Imagine devising a sampling technique, or whatever.
Dragon Queen.
Frozen Bioch.
What’s the female version of alpha male?
Worker Bee status means you lack the killer instinct of Bush’s handlers? Bush’s PR people did try their best to sell Bush as an Alpha Male.
Tweety going on and on about how Manly Bush looked in his flight suit and stuffed codpiece suggests a huge attempt to sell Bush as an Alpha Male.
I am not saying Bush is an Alpha but I am saying his Handlers tried to sell him as one. McCain and Kerry lacked the instinct to go for the throat sure they could fight but they lacked the killer instinct.
Very astute comments. The leaders and the led go hand in hand. Under times of crisis (e.g., economic, military, natural catastrophes, etc.) the populace is much more likely to abandon rational choice and select alpha male types–also to put aside moral judgements that deviate from above. Leaders who engage in wars (even democratic ones) tend to be in office twice as long as those who have peace.
Lurk & learn, I always say. :-)
Thank you
Bush was a straw man for the Cheney cabal. A pleasant fool. He’s still proving up.
The emphasis in the U.S. on at least “selling” the prez as alpha male is testimony to Arnold’s model. They know it is important. Hell, Gore even took lessons & got told how to dress as an alpha male.
Perhaps not pertinent but I would like to say kudos to Donald Roller Wilson for the superb cover illustration.
ditto
It seems that societies also react to times of crisis by turning more to fundamental ideologies. Connection with the alpha male icon?
Crisis forces people to turn Authoritarian, react emotionally, lizard brain fight or flight response, rally around the leader wolfpack behavior.
Reason goes out the window argument over what to do is taken as personal criticism of the Leader.
No wonder the GOP screams terror attack so often.
Here is something for you to consider about power. It is intoxicating. For your info, I summarized a fascinating study on primates. In my own study, I found many parallels.
To the best of my recollection, here are the results of an experiment done at the Wake Forest Medical Center. The experimenters thoroughly did extensive lab tests (e.g., CAT scans, hormone assays, etc.) on 20 MALE macaque monkeys that were kept in separate cages and found no significant differences among them. They then assigned all the monkeys to five cages, four to each cage. Within THREE MONTHS the monkeys in each cage established a clear cut DOMINANCE HIERARCHY, from the most dominant to the most submissive.
Next they measured the BRAIN DOPAMINE activity (usually increased with stimulants) and found that there was a direct relationship between the levels of this neurotransmitter and the degree of dominance. The most dominant monkeys had the highest levels and the least dominant the lowest levels.
Now here is the most fascinating part. Since each monkey had indwelling intravenous catheters, they could “work for” either a dose of GLUCOSE water or a dose of a COCAINE solution. Guess who worked the hardest for the cocaine? No, it was not the most dominant monkeys. It was the more submissive ones. Why? Most likely, in my estimation, BECAUSE THE MOST DOMINANT MONKEYS ALREADY WERE INTOXICATED WITH POWER and did not need any more stimulation!!!
Now one more incidental finding. Since these results only pertained to male monkeys, the experimenters also looked at how female monkeys reacted to the same conditions. The results were telling. Even after THREE YEARS the female monkeys, also four to a cage) could not establish a stable dominance hierarchy! It was more like THEY TOOK THEIR TURNS AT LEADERSHIP, with none of them complaining too much if one of their cohorts decided to push them aside.
In my opinion, these findings have a bearing on humans, too!
Absolutely, I agree. Also, once he read the manuscript, he donated the painting to me free.
Well, the top gods are usually male. Oh oh, chicken and egg dilemma
Agreed I think thats why Puppet should be included as a leadership style. Next Question which leadership style uses Puppets the most and why?
Arnold, for mid-session comedic relief, why don’t you say a few words about Macais Mguema of Equatorial Guinea? You seemed fond of that hapless leader, and drew me to read Dogs of War, which was a hoot and a half.
No question. Machiavelli, in the Prince, advised rulers to go to war if they wanted to stay in power. If not a war, then to create a threat.
That is incredible research. And, I have to say I’m kinda not surprised by the different behavior of the females. Facing the facts, we’re different.
All alpha males like puppets, but some puppets are more clever than others in getting their way. Unfortunately, the longer a leader stays in office, the more likely he is to become convinced in the brilliance of his own judgements.
That stuff is fascinating. Who has written a good book for the educated lay person summarizing that kind of science? I had ever present questions about brain chemistry as I read your book. Wanted to know how the testosterone, dopamine, etc. measured in the various leaders & how that compared to their alpha maleness scores, PGSs.
And the females took turns? Who coulda anticipated? (Rhetorical.)
Imagine, Nguema, the bizarre leader of a country who has supper with imaginary dinner guests and puts to death all intellectuals so that no one can disagree with him. It’s amazing that he ever got to rule and stayed in office as long as he did.
I’m certain that Bush II eventually felt that he was actually running the show. I still believe he was the puppet. As opposed to our current leader, who seems happy as a clam to let underlings act as his puppets. Though many of us suspect that Obama is really the one pulling the strings……oh, so clever. Only time will tell.
Why, in aggregate is that pro-survival, when it seems exactly the opposite?
And while you argue that humans have certainly survived & thrived, based on population stats, other primates are not doing so well with that evolutionary model.
To my knowledge, that book has yet to be written. However, there is a good deal in the primate literature that sharply contrasts the roles of males and females and touches on the underlying hormonal interactions.
Agreed. My personal theory is that women cannot be “seen” by men — literally don’t recognize her unless she acts like a man.
But most of us are all wired not to accept a deceipt, and a woman acting like a man is a form of deceipt. It’s a deep taboo for a woman to be something other than a stereotypical female.
Why are our Elites not producing Alpha Males? Reagan and Clinton both were not born rich. All the Presidents and contenders have been weak in this area unless they came from poorer backgrounds?
The GOP tries to substitute crazy like Sarah as Alpha Maleness, or Crazy like Newt as Creativity.
Effective Leaders and creativity does that correlate and is the inverse also true?
Bush certainly had no new ideas. Also the reliance on facts vs what you want to believe how does that correlate with leadership both getting into power and being an effective leader?
Do belief leaders need Lizard Brain followers in order to rule, or maybe just lazy voters? In Crisis where belief fails people can go more Lizard the Hitler’s Germany model or they can go hard fact, hard choices the FDR model.
Doing nothing the Hoover/Obama model I see as a transition phase before a Hitler or FDR can take power.
Bush (or was it Rice?) was more in charge during the second term, or at least Cheney’s influenced was lessened. At least that’s the read on why the U.S. did not bomb Iran, which Cheney argued for.
Wow, what happens to the conventional wisdom of intra-female competitiveness? females can get along as long as there are no males around? Did they stick a male in with them to see of that made any difference?
Well, after having read yours 3 times, that’s the next book I’m looking for.
I guess I’m wondering now, how do we use this information? I remember saying here during the primaries that Obama would beat out HRC based on the fact that Black Males got the right to vote before any women. In a way, understanding this stuff skews the future in terms of how we make choices?
You are absolutely right. Unfortunately, “lower” primates do not fare well with “higher” human primates who look upon them as food sources, trophies, or adversaries of entrepreneurship (i.e, lumber industry in jungles, etc.).
A female President who does not act like a Man should be very interesting to study:)
Ah, so that was you who pointed that out. I remember that, and so it was.
I still voted for the girl. *g*
The GOP does hate intellectuals, anyone different I’m surprised it hasn’t happened more often.
One thing to remember is that leaders do not have to be enlightened or even well informed. All they have to do is get in office and try to lead. Unlike engineers or scientists or even artists, they do not need any special skills or have to pass leadership courses beforehand. It is a shame we don’t have effective criteria to keep incompetents out of office.
Ah, yes. I also recall that when my ex was trying to promote women into manufacturing (mid 1980′s) leadership positions, I told him that the reluctant white male workers would accept a black male before they would accept an educated white (or black) woman………and so it was.
I think that’s the hardest thing for political junkies to wrap their minds around.
Do you consider Obama a good leader?
I wasn’t aware of that prediction, I salute your astute observation.
Arnold, I didn’t check to see if you have a website. If so could you please give us the url? Also, I’d love it, if you haven’t already, if you would put your detailed data up for others to study and use. Your database is phenomenal.
Agreed War is adrenaline its a drug it makes ruling easier. We need to identify competent rulers however who do not need war to hold onto power.
No country has benefited from a long war after all (paraphrased Sun Tze). How do we identify competent leaders when guys like Obama and Bush lie to us?
I think people in general and maybe as much if not more so with political junkies, who are after all idealists, need to cling to some standard of “fairness”. That’s why we expect that people in power should have earned it with exceptionalism.
I agree with you. In fact, in the last chapter of my book, I highly recommend that world leadership at all levels requires more estrogen and less testosterone. When you consider that since the beginning of recorded history, humans have been at war over 97% of the time and that in the last century, largely male leaders were responsible for more that 200,000,000 deaths, then maybe it is time to load of the leadership ranks at all levels (including the military) with females.
Just watching the playground.
There is an online civics quiz that made the rounds a couple years back. If I recall correctly, the summary stated that politicians actually scored 4-5 percent lower than the already abysmal national average (well under 50 percent correct).
Your book identifies then how leaders get to power. So I take it the better the leader is at these skills the more mistakes he or his Puppet Masters can get away with as a leader?
Yes, but it’s too early to really tell. He just seems to be learning nhow to wield power effectively. Initially, he was naive, believing he could reason with the opposition when what most politicos want is to remain in office as long as possible.
Oh, Arnold, you can’t tell from some of the screen names, but this site was founded by an alpha female, although she is not with us tonight, and is populated with plenty of alpha female commenters.
That’s why I thought it was so important to have Arnold come & talk about it. We are idealistic, but at least we try to live in the reality-based world.
Yes I always get pissed when logic and even greed gets tossed for what people want to believe.
That’s why I wondered earlier if you had noticed anything about those 15 or 20 women in your sample that might suggest a more naturally female route to the top.
What about them might be useful to think about?
I’m howling.
Loved that quiz.
Unfortunately, the current political process fosters lying and deceit. How can candidates win elections when they have to appease so many interest groups, many of which have competing goals. In a way, the parliamentary government allows many different parties to have a voice in goverment. The one problem with this format is it often is difficult to get anything done.
Good for all of them. I heartily endorse what they have accomplished.
Indeed.
And in terms of political power struggles, to paraphrase Rayne, on a gender basis the power elites are “seeing” the female electorate even less.
This does not bode well for either reality or fairness today.
Me too (93 percent). The two I missed were sneaky trick questions. “g”
I’m still in the dilemma of, if it’s alpha male that made the human race so dominant, why would it be good for it to become less so in the future? You seem to be arguing against your own hypothesis.
Do you think he was naive or going through serious attempts at reaching out so that he could sincerely say “I really tried?” The fact that not one Republican voted for the Health care legislation made them look like solid obstructionist.
The soon-to-be-ended choice rights is strong evidence of that.
Even in the case of the women who reached the top, that is far from what the goal should be. The supporting positions and structures at all levels need to be populated by more women. eg., there are no female generals in the war room, only one female on the Supreme Court, etc., etc. If these changes can be made (which are doubtful), then perhaps women leaders can begin to act “less like men.”
Maybe then we can take turns acting like men. :-)
Recommend a book which helped me understand the frustrating schism between men and women — Changes of Mind: A Holonomic Theory of the Evolution of Consciousness, by Jenny Wade, SUNY.
One might say the problem has been outlined by John Grey in Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, but the problem is much bigger and deeper. A substantive majority of adult humans live in two different states of consciousness, which are labeled Achievement and Affiliative in Wade’s text. Persons in Achievement state are highly focused on measures and benchmarks and competition, where persons in Affiliative state are focused on relationships and associations between networks and on maintaining the health of the same.
Of course once I read this it all clicked: this is why men are so much more likely than women to spool off a string of sports stats and women are more likely to focus on relationships between individuals. It’s a split in the wet ware of the genome, which helps encourage survival. The males of the species compete to propel their genes, while the females of the species worry over resourcing the entire genome and assuring that the genome as a whole survives.
But if consciousness is defined as one’s perception of reality, those of us firmly entrenched in either of these states during waking hours are incapable of seeing persons in the other state. We don’t experience them.
And that’s why we don’t have too many women in board rooms except when they start their own firms. They are invisible.
Arnold,
Few visionaries’ children followed them to power, Kim Il Sung being the only example I can think of. Visionaries are the most extreme category for alpha males. If it’s in the genes, why are there not more monarchies established after visionaries? In fact for many Vs, we know little about their children (Mao for example). Why?
No I am not. All I am proposing is that it would be an interesting situation to give more woman a chance to rule. Incidentally, I am not a proponent of the alpha male model. I simply am a scientist who has tried tol account for the preponderance of men in leadership positions. the alpha male model seems to fit best. The explanation is not an endorsement. I’d be delighted to adopt another model if it could work. As for the success of the model (in terms of population growth), don’t take that as an endorsement. One cell, amebas have lasted far longer than humans, and they don’t even seem to need sex.
Actually, of course, there are two females on the Supreme Court (Ginsburg and Sotomeyor) — and the prospect of one more to come. And wouldn’t that be fascinating….3 females on the left (or, at least, leftish)?
“Even in the case of the women who reached the top, that is far from what the goal should be. The supporting positions and structures at all levels need to be populated by more women.”
Could you rephrase that?
The all-male Republican block was in competitive mode and unable to see health care as anything but a competition. They rejected seeing it as a resourcing issue which might help their own kind. Obstruction was the only play they could literally see available to them without having to switch mental/psychic gears and act more like women. And unfortunately, the female Republicans must “ape” the men to retain their power in their posse — so they went along with the obstruction instead of speaking out against it.
Thanks. That helps me to think about it.
A follow up on all the different leadership types kids would be interesting. What makes a leader produce a good heir?
Thanks Rayne. I’ve added it to my shopping cart.
Good point. Actually, there are a number of father-son combos, most of which are disasters. Papa Doc and Baby Doc, and some might argue, George Bush and W, It’s hard to know why many visionaries have not put their sons in power. I’ll have to think about that a while. It would not surprise me to discover that many of them are more interested in preserving their changes for eternity than in perpetuating their names.
I’ll challenge you to look at women who do lead and the tools they use to get and retain power.
One facet I see used most often is the appeal to winning, which is a key touchstone with males who are firmly in Achievement state of consciousness.
Palin, for example, transcends the taboo of women assuming a male role, because she talks a lot about winning, appeals to the innate jock in men, is literally a sports newscaster who treats politics like sports.
(Fortunately men who really like winning don’t like quitters.)
A related Q, but not in the purview of tonight’s discussion: why was inheritable monarchy such a prevalent form of human govt throughout history?
McCain might have won the election if Harry Truman had passed Healthcare. Why White Males were his strongest voting block if Healthcare had passed then there might have been enough White Males alive today to have won him the election.
Asians and Hispanics live longer than White Males getting everyone healthcare reduces the White male death rate and would help keep the GOP in power longer.
But the GOP believes what they want to believe over logic.
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Arnold, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your book and research.
eCAHNomics, Thank you for Hosting this Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Arnold’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
What got me onto that question was how little is known about Mao’s children, not only the sparse info in your book, but I googled around a bit & couldn’t come up with much more. Mao is revered in China because he put the empire back together again and kicked out the foreigners. China’s long history is monarchy, so Mao could easily have done it. Yet, he seems to have been completely uninterested in his spawn.
One reason is that people used to belief that monarchs were demi-gods and were endowed with special abilities and powers which were handed down from generation to generation. Before you dismiss that notion, consider how many people believe that their religious leaders have a direct pipeline to God.
Thank you Arnold for your splendid work and for spending time here at the Lake.
Thanks for your hard work organizing this salon, Bev.
Thanks so much to Arnold for being here today, I look forward to reading this book.
And thanks to eCAHNomics for hosting today.
thank you Bev, eCAHNomics, and all the responders. It was fun and interesting to tackle your excellent questions and comments.
My experience with alpha males is that they have little concern for their spawn. It is, narcissistically, really all about the alpha himself. Monarchies are about protecting property/land/assets….any fool of a son can do that (with help from the puppet class.)
Chicken & egg. The leaders themselves perpetuate the notion that they have divine rights. So what’s a poor peasant to believe.
Actually, that leads me to another way of looking at the postevolutionary human society. It was education that lead the demise of monarchies & the rise of democracies, and to what little progress women have made in leadership roles. So perhaps we could call education the current stage of evolution?
Interesting. Thanks.
Thanks, all, for a lively book discussion.
Palin only appeals to 20%ers. Lizards who react with emotion would I expect be more influenced by sexual attraction.
And no I don’t think Sarah is hot even when her mouth is closed and the Crazy stops. I think Sarah being a Woman and part of the 20%er tribe explains the attraction. She is a women standing in front of crowds of cheering emotionally charged future lone gunmen some sexual attraction is to be expected.
I wonder if her handlers see her as another Eva Peron?
Good talk:)
I voted for the “girl” too, the only genuine black candidate in the last election.
Sorry I missed this. I ordered both of Prof. Ludwig’s books and would really like to see something on that primate study. There was an interesting study of the changes in Malaysia’s matriarchal society once manufacturing arrived there in force. It was in the Review of Radical Political Economics in the 90s. I’ll find it and link.
Prof Ludwig:
I’ll drink to that!
The former pres, and his snotty chief of staff. If you saw the clip where Regan steps up to St. Ronnie, while in the midst of a speach, and (tells him,) to ” hurry it up,” it make ya wonder who is the real Leader there… will the real alpha male please sign in…
Read somethiing to the effect Regan was, and that his “bonefides” more than make the case.
Thanks,
Gosh, cocktail hour is definitely at hand. Martini anyone?
you know, ambition is usually what gets a person to the top, not his ability
we understand that but we we try to pick someone we believe will take his new found power and do something thta will move us forward
for instance fdr, when he got into office he found his footing after he got there and then saw the direction the country needed to go for the good and just did it
we have the oposite with obama, who said he would do things and decided the path was too tough
Ah, but as you suggest, some of those lizards don’t THINK about the merits; her appeal is deep at archetype level. They are automatically drawn to her and cannot articulate why, even though to many of us she may look like a vengeful, toxic death goddess.
It’s absolutely important to understand the mechanism of attraction, because 20% of the overall audience is enough to clinch an election. Republicans know it’s been as tight as a handful of percent during the last ten years, and they will shamefully deploy their Kali-like figure to sway that handful-plus in order to win.
Might make an interesting diary, Matt. Please consider doing one.
I’ll buy you the first two. You did a great job. You really did.
Political bumper sticker: Ambition, not ability. *g*
hmmm
me thinking I am alpha male take issue with this
my dad as well was the alpha, everyone gathered around him and he was the go to for advice and for security among his family and his friends
yet it was his wife and his children that he lived for
I think you are thinking of the “psuedo” alpha, thoe boisterous who think loud and bore is alpha, I don’t think you mean the real alpha, the man that boisuterous bore goes to
that alpha is the type my dad was and it is entirely differant
way ahead of the crowd lol have mine as i follow along in the comments ;o)
I have always thought more about the powerful teams behind the leader. Those who see the characteristics in a particular person and then promote and sell them to the public. Those whispering in the leaders ears.
Prof Ludwig where would you put Cheney in your line up? Certainly not a visionary. How about Rahm Emmanuel/
Oh I see he is gone
Thanks all, and Great Job eCAHN!
I ‘need’ a drink. I had fun, but I got in a hyperalert state. Need.To.Stop.That.Now.
Thanks for this salon, Ecahn, And thanks Professor Ludwig for all those years of toil for the common good.
KUDOS all around!! this was really enlightening!
Thanks.
And thanks to all for Qs and comments.
I will have mine dirty please, and not in that rediculous “martine glass” whence you can not move without spilling
so dirty martiny in a tumbler, plenty of olives pour favour
Nice slow shoulder and neck massage coming your way.
(At least you can roll them forward and backward a few times. Might help. :)
(((eCAHN)))
OK. I’m going to fix that martini now. I’ll check back in 5, drink in hand.
I never drink dirty martinis, but for you I’ll make an exception. One regular green olive & one jalopena stuffed olive on the toothpick.
Can’t remember if it was Wright who wrote about the two primary approaches to genetic success — meaning, the survival of a set of genes — which males adopt across the animal kingdom.
There’s the spread-many-seeds approach, and the invest-in-a-few-good-seeds approach. Both can be adopted by alpha males (with beta males supporting these efforts, consciously or unconsciously).
Your dad was likely the latter and not the former. I’m sure you can think of many examples of the other kind.
My favorite comment of the post:
Maybe then we can take turns acting like men. :-)
I was getting a little slap happy by then.
Cheers everyone. *clicking glasses*
Car pulled up in the driveway during the chat so I rushed downstairs to handle that. Then toward the end, the cat decided it was time for me to play with her.
I’m rather surprised that Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore didn’t make the top list, considering that he’s been in office since 1959, and is widely considered directly responsible for the transformation of his country.
Excellent point. Would be a good case for analysis.
Got a 19 on the PGS, top third. He’s categorized as an authoritarian, so he doesn’t get many points from the categories that require change, and is definitely downgraded on the size category.
Oh, and furthermore, look at his competition. He’s good, but not great. I find him more interesting as an insight into China than anything else. How to continue an authoritarian state even with economic prosperity.
Dang, I missed this discussion!
I was going to ask Dr. Ludwig how the corporatist hive model of governance that has been in the ascendant in developed countries fits his theory.
oh, so sorry to have had to miss this one! i was looking forward to it. my loss, and i’ll have to settle with looking forward to reading the thread….
I guess I don’t understand the classification system then, because based on your basic description, I’d have thought Lee could be classified as an Visionary.
Thanks! Regrettably, in the US, our Presidents have almost unchallenged purview of foreign affairs, which determine war or peace. In domestic matters, the Congress has the upper hand owing to the proximity of MCs to their financial supporters at home. Thus, Presidents who wish to make an easy mark, often choose international belligerency; peace requires treaties and compromises that Congress is often unwilling to undertake.
Also, being too great a leader domestically can lead to one’s assassination or to political realignments, from the “offense” to entrenched privilege (e.g. Dixiecrats, Republican takeover of the Old South, Democrats shift to the Right).
It’s no accident that most of our recent Presidents are warriors.
Dang on you too. Would have been a good Q. Ludwig probably wouldn’t have been able to answer it because it wasn’t in his study (although there might have been an analogue he could have drawn on), but a good point to bring up.
Ludwig addressed this classification issue in response to one of my Qs. (If you want, leave me a note & I’ll find it.) There were multiple reviewers of each bio and they not only did the PGS ranking, but also ranked & categorized. Ludwig admitted that there were rulers who could be classified in different categories, and that it would be a judgment call. I’m not familiar enough with LKY to opine on authoritarian vs. visionary. Just visited once & authoritarian seems more in keeping with what I observed. He may have shaped Singapore, but more to L&O than to something entirely diff from what it had been in the past, is my guess as to how Ludwig would have answered you.
One of my unasked Qs was whether it is accurate to call the U.S. prez the most powerful man in the world, since there is less alpha maleness in democratic societies. I think you could argue it either way.
Yes, sorry you missed it too, as your Qs usually probe issues more deeply.
All post-WWII U.S. prez launched offensive international actions, usually against hapless opponents. Regan v. Grenada comes to mind, but Poppy v. Noriega is a close second. To be honest, Carter’s was late in his short tenure, and hostage rescue may be more accurately categorized as defensive. Reasons why Carter ranks relatively low on PGS (14, barely edging into top third vs. Ford, 11, in middle third).
Your observation on assassinations is very much in line with the general pattern Ludwig reveals. Not at all unique to the U.S.
eCAHNomics, If you ever have the opportunity to read Lee’s 2 volume autobiography, you might find it very interesting. As you noted on your visit, Singapore has a strong government. That, coupled with its small size, has made it possible for Singapore’s government to push rapid changes in just every aspect of Singaporean society except the political dominance of the PAP. (People’s Action Party)
I recall that Pres. Carter posed with the Shah and used the term “best friend” in describing the Iranian tyrant. Not sure if he was Carter’s “best friend” or America’s! After the Shah fled Iran, Carter was embarrassed by his presence in the US and sent the Shah to be treated in Mexico for his ailment. Imperialism makes for strange bedfellows, I’d say. Thanks for your comments.
I think it an error to associate martial behavior with males only. For example, currently Hillary Clinton is in the vanguard of US aggressiveness; she may have authored the administration shift towards threatening those who have not signed NPT with first, nuclear strike attacks. Nothing new, Joan of Arc, Catherine II, Elizabeth I, many others I know I am too poor an historian to have at my immediate ken, have been martial women as are many of our Daughters of the American Revolution. Those not martial themselves have not generally hesitated to send their sons off to war, as Phillip Wylie wrote in “A Generation of Vipers” many years ago. I have no doubt that we can easily find imperialistic, American women to carry on the US traditions of murder abroad when resources or pride demand it.