On Monday, I described the years-long controversy within the military services over the use of waterboarding in SERE training, which left the Navy SERE school in North Island, California the last remaining survival school to use the technique on its students. The executive authority for SERE, the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency, had argued for its elimination as as an unsafe technique with deleterious psychological and possibly physiological consequences upon trainees, causing them to be “psychologically defeated.” The North Island school ended use of waterboarding in November 2007.
In the May 10, 2005 “techniques” memorandum by Steven Bradbury to CIA Senior Deputy Counsel, John Rizzo, Bradbury mentioned the waterboarding issue at the SERE schools, in a footnote (H/T Marcy Wheeler). “We understand that the waterboard is currently used only in Navy SERE training,” Bradbury wrote. He explained that the CIA Inspector General report on the Agency’s interrogation program mentioned that “individuals with authoritative knowledge of the SERE program” believed that waterboarding had been excluded from most of the SERE schools “because of its dramatic effect on the students who were subjects.”
Despite the presence of this unexplained “dramatic effect,” Bradbury continued:
We understand that use of the waterboard was discontinued by the other services not because of any concerns about physical or mental harm, but because students were not successful at resisting the technique, and, as such, it was not considered to be a useful training technique.
Bradbury received his assurances from the CIA’s Office of Medical Services (OMS), who he quotes as saying “[w]hile SERE trainers believe that trainees are unable to maintain psychological resistance to the waterboard, our experience was otherwise.” OMS soothingly assures that “Some subjects can unquestionably withstand a large number of applications,” with no harm greater than a “strong aversion to the experience.” The testimony of the “SERE trainers” is blithely brushed aside, and no questions are asked about what it means to be “unable to maintain psychological resistance.”
Even more, Bradbury and OMS’s assurances don’t correspond with the evidence from JPRA internal documents, which describe the use of waterboarding as leaving students “psychologically defeated” and impaired in the ability to develop “psychological hardiness.” Furthermore, as a Truthout article last month notes, the discontinuance of waterboarding was not due to mere failure at resistance to the technique. They were finding measures of physiological harm.
The Navy SERE school in Brunswick, Maine, discontinued the use of waterboarding in its training curriculum after a SERE psychologist found via “empirical medical data … elevated levels of cortisol in the brain stem caused by stress levels incurred during water boarding.” Cortisol is a stress hormone released by the adrenal glands as part of the body’s fight-or-flight mechanisms. Excess cortisol can lead to chronic stress, impaired cognitive abilities, thyroid problems, suppressed immune functioning, high blood pressure, and other health problems.
The origins of misinformation about waterboarding go back to the original Yoo/Bybee memos in August 2002. Emptywheel has been following the story around the machinations surrounding the composition of these memos pretty closely (see here, and here, and here). In the memo to Rizzo on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, John Yoo writes:
With respect to the waterboard, you have also orally informed us that the Navy continues to use it in training. You have informed us that your on-site psychologists, who have extensive experience with the use of the waterboard in Navy training, have not encountered any significant long-term mental health consequences from its use…. JPRA has likewise not reported any significant long-term mental health consequences from the use of the waterboard.
Yoo explains the cessation of waterboarding training as due to the fact “it was so successful as an interrogation technique,” and not because of any concerns over harm from its use. This is, we know now, plainly not the case. Is it any surprise that the Navy SERE psychologists clung to their use of waterboarding, and that Yoo and the CIA found a willing group of practitioners to give them the fairy tale story they desired? The use of anecdotal statements from biased participants does not add up to due diligence or reliance on experts.
In fact, no long-term study on the effects of waterboarding, or SERE techniques in general, has ever been made, or at least made public. If there were such a study, and its results backed the contentions of Yoo and the CIA, you can be sure we would have heard of it. Instead, we have the statements of JPRA professionals that the use of waterboarding in SERE training was risky, potentially dangerous, and produced a condition known as “learned helplessness.” My next article will expand on what the dangers of learned helplessness entail from a psychological and physiological standpoint.
Next: “Learned Helplessness” and the waterboard




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i’m tired of hearing all the apologists explain how safe waterboarding is. they are literally talking out of their a**es. no, lying, unless they have actually undergone the same technique as practiced at gitmo.
i’d like to hear these tough guys explain how they know what the hell they’re talking about.
Absolutely. In my last post, Internal Memo Exposes Yoo and Rove Lies on Safety of Waterboarding, in comments I placed a link to SERE trainer Malcolm Nance’s statement on waterboarding. Here it is again FWIW.
Since Nance taught at the San Diego school, his POV is probably quite close to some of the trainers there. He argues that waterboarding is torture, and should not be used on prisoners. But he also argues that it is torture however and whenever it is used, and that you can’t really do a demonstration of it. He dances around the question of whether harm is done to trainees, and argues it should by used in survival school because “Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture…”
Tough love… waterboard-style.
I’m specifically reminded of my time in the USMC. We had to suffer in the “gas chamber”, once in Boot Camp and as part of regular training in the course of regular duty. It was a gas mask drill where we had to be exposed to CS (tear) gas, with and without gas masks. I remember the experience being bad, and painful, and torture in a metaphorical sense… and maybe in a literal sense too. There was a guy in my platoon at Parris Island who panicked and tried to run out of the gas chamber. He was hit and tackled at the door, and forced to deal with the tear gas until someone forced a mask onto him, or until he started puking, I forget which it was. Might have been both, I was busy having an asthma attack at the time… and I still got my mask on.
The point is, I remember how miserable it was, on three separate occasions, to have my breathing interfered with. I still had a sense of control on all of those occasions, so I didn’t panic too much. If I didn’t have that sense of control, even if it was part of training and I knew that I was in the hands of my superiors, I would have lost my… stuff. Waterboarding seems like just another facet of the same game, and I would have lost my mind in the same way, and so would most people.
Waterboarding, even in training, must qualify as torture. It is nasty even in the best of circumstances… and anything a detainee suffers must be less than those best of circumstances.
I can’t help but notice how it’s never the people who have willingly or unwillingly experienced waterboarding, (TORTURE), who are listened to in these cases but the so called “experts” who have no greater exposure than observation of the (TORTURE) technique. I guess the theory is that people without several extensive college degrees don’t feel pain like “real” people do.
Oh for crying out loud. Training for resisting torture is entirely different from undergoing torture. In the former, you know you’ll survive in good health. In the latter, not at all. What a crappy argument.
Yes, though, as the article points out, the “SERE trainers” told OLC they “believe that trainees are unable to maintain psychological resistance to the waterboard”.
Now, that vague term — “psychological resistance” — and elsewhere terms like “psychologically defeated” and “learned helplessness”, mask the underlying medical and psychobiological harms done to the persons who experienced even SERE training-style waterboarding.
OLC used the supposed safety of the latter to prop up the use of waterboarding (and other SERE techniques) in the EITs. Two points: one we already knew — CIA went far beyond the use of waterboarding as described by JPRA/SERE. But, two, even the use of waterboarding as used by JPRA was harmful. In other words, it was a clusterfuck all the way around.
Great analysis, Jeff. It sure looks to me like Bradbury is close to being caught up in the “we” who told the lie about why waterboarding was discontinued at SERE schools.
I’m puzzling over one bit, though. It looks to me like most measurements on cortisol levels are done on blood. I wonder how they determined cortisol levels in the brain stem. Is there anything in the original document you’re working from that suggests how the measurements were done? It seems to me that just about the only way the measurement could be done is at autopsy. Was there a waterboarding death at the SERE school in Brunswick, Maine? Otherwise, it seems that they would have to be considering the spinal cord to be part of the brain stem and measuring cortisol in spinal fluid obtained by lumbar puncture.
CIA OMS says “Our experience” what experience are they alluding to? Back in the olden days SERE was supposed to be the only American outfit torturing anyone. Where did CIA counter-conclusions come from?
I take it you know better than the people who actually run the SERE programs.
You are correct that, in general, knowing that you are being “tortured” by people you can trust, and within controlled boundaries, with the presence of control officers, medical and psychological personnel, etc., does not achieve the full torture effect. Nor would you want it too. JPRA looks for a close experience, but not to cross the line. That way they can utilize the principle of “stress inoculation” to help the trainees know what to expect and give them a taste of what they could expect.
But there’s no way to give a “taste” of the waterboard. It is traumatizing right out of the gate. The power it gave to the mock torturers was so great it was hard to rein them in sometimes, as the vignette in the first part of this story makes clear:
You’re sort of “reading comprehension deficient” aren’t you? My exact point is that training is EASIER than the real thing. And, since even the training can be traumatic, the real thing is even worse.
Do try to keep up, OK?
Oops!
I asked the professionals at Physicians for Human Rights about this. Apparently, the test for cortisol in the brain stem is not too invasive. It involves the basic saliva test, and also the drawing of some blood. I don’t know how it works, but I was told it wasn’t that hard to do.
Thanks.
Oh yeah, except that my IQ is 80.
To make myself clear:
If being in a controlled situation, surrounded by people who you trust and knowing that your comrades-in-arms are nearby, can nevertheless produce feelings of panic and the sense that one’s life is threatened, and all the trauma that goes with it, then how much worse is it when you are a prisoner who has no control? Tear gas training must be much less than SERE training, and I saw someone completely lose it under those minimum conditions, and felt some panic myself.
If under those rather weak conditions we can see someone break, how much worse is SERE training, and how much more obviously is waterboarding clearly torture?
Don’t try to inflate your IQ to inpress people who can already judge your intelligence.
I’d love to see you in a gas chamber… I’d go in there with you, under every condition you had to deal with. I know what I can take, and I’d love to watch a chickenhawk break. :)
In defense of eCAHNomics, and no disrespect to ImprobableJoe:
I think it’s just hard to swallow an equivocation of CS gas training with SERE’s agenda. I did the CS gas thing in the ’70′s, and it was kind of like Jackass Lite. I had to fake extreme symptoms before the DI would let me out of the “gas chamber” – a log cabin in the woods.
Anyway – torture is a horror that paints us all with shame.
Jeff, you and Marcy and Jason Leopold are doing amazing work, uncovering all these criminal acts.
I trust they will find use in Court rooms, in the not too distant future.
Easy now, eCAHN is a tremendous asset to this blog. Your comment @ 3 could have been written more clearly and many on this site agree with your assumption.
BTW, welcome to FDL, I haven’t seen you around.
it was clear the first time what it was you were communicating. i’m very appreciative of your comments and for your sharing your experience.
it looks to me like eCAHN misinterpreted what you were saying and expressed it in a way that was difficult to receive and now there’s an escalation going on on both sides.
can we all regroup? eCAHN, would you be willing to go back and reread IJ’s original comment?
Has Obama promoted Bradbury yet? Surely his expertise can be utilized in Obama’s rehashed Cheney Administration.
thanks jeff for your contribution to the clarity of what our country’s been doing.
It wasn’t an equivocation at all. My point was that CS gas is LESS than waterboarding, and can nevertheless strike people with serious effect.
The point is that is something as relatively mild as CS gas in a controlled environment can cause someone to panic and lose their mind, how much worse is waterboarding done by strangers who you know hate you? It MUST be torture!!
Agreed. My guess is that they are not so far apart. We’ve been so sensitized by a decade of falsified narratives about torture that each of us (I know I have) have developed sensitivities to perceived minimizations of the torture problem.
Thanks, too, for the kind words from you, Petrocelli, and Jim W.
It is clear to me.
I didn’t mean to derail the conversation.
If I offended anyone, I’m sorry.
I’m not offended, sir. And I meant no offense as well. I think we were saying the same thing after all.
Torture ia being a woman in a Muslim country. Stones do alot more, and much more permanent damage than water boarding. Genital mutilation is a permanent infliction. Fistulas due to giving birth at too young an age can be deadly. Why is the left so willing to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to the hideous human rights violations that exist under Shar-iah law which is an inseparteable part of Islam?
The Demcrats are losing women and for good reason. As Obama said in his Cairo speach: “Human rights is an idea not a priority.”
Spoken like a true san of a polygamist.
Son of a polygamist.
Great article, Jeff. Of course, this is all if nothing goes “wrong”, too. If it does, either wet or dry drowning, there’s the lung damage and possibly brain damage. And with the latter, it needn’t occur right at the time of the waterboarding, the person can go into dry drowning hours later.
Thank you for posting. I don’t know about Obama’s father, but it is certainly true that women in much of the Islamic world (and other parts, too, including animist, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.), suffer horrendous oppression, and suffer deeply. I too wish this were higher on everyone’s agenda. But I won’t trade off one suffering group for another, or judge anyone’s pain higher or lower than another’s.
I do think the much of the left takes notice of the Shariah law and other religious superstitions and practices that are harmful to women. I looked at the plight of Afghan women in a recent article at Truthout, Afghanistan: Women Dying and Torture Run Amuck. Also, some time back, I tried to get people interested in the horrifying charges of witchcraft made against a Saudi woman, Fawza Fahli, who had been sentenced for beheading by the Saudi government, Stop Barbaric Execution of Saudi “Witch”!
Uh, yeah. I should have made that point… of course, that’s if nothing goes wrong. But I think — and with the military, you have to read between the lines, because of liabilities and bad potential publicity — but they obviously thought too much was already going wrong with waterboarding in training, just at the time they were selling it as “safe” to OLC (or some were doing that, and others trying to tell the truth otherwise).
I guess that’s what I mean in some comment up above where I decided it was all a huge clusterfuck all around. No matter where you look in the torture story, you see criminal lies and intent, or, at best, pusillanimous indecision and the placing of institutional loyalty above all ethical and professional standards. The government stands in terrible condemnation for this dark chapter in American history, and that’s why practically no one in government seems to want to do anything about it.
Bottom line is it worked the few times it was used. And I have no problem using it, so long as the power to order it being done is held by The Office of the President. In other words, only one person can order it, and that would be the President, regardless of who the person occupying the office is or what party he is from.
Do you really think that many people on the left take notice of Shar-iah law. I do not and that is one of the many reasons I am leaving the democrat party. Obama’s mother was a co-wife to Obama’s father. This is a fact that the lame stream media chose to ignore. I think that Stanley Ann Dunham imagined that she was quite progressive and evolved.
We have the worst womanizers in the democrat party. Ted Kennedy thought that a womans place was on the bottom of lake Chappe*** (sorry, I don’t know the spelling), Bill Clinton tossed his many mistresses onto the public pyre after he was through with them. Then there is the V.P. candidate who I voted for John Edwards-ICH! I am sorry but the republican party is looking alot more hospitible to women to me. I live in Philly and remeber when Sarah Palin and her youngest daughter were greeted by a bunch of lefty slobs wearing Sarah Palin C**T T-shirts. Their pictures were posted on the official Obama campaign website until womens groups made alot of noice about it. Obama happily benefited by the outragious misogyny leveled at both Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin.
I am embarassed to call myself a democrat. I was wrong about them. They don’t care about minorities, womenor the poor. They only wish to exploit them. And George Soros looks at America as if it is just another number on the ruelet table. He will bet against our economy to win.
I am sooooo done with the despotcrat party.
If you think joining the Republicans will put you in touch with the champions of women and the poor, then you are in for quite a surprise.
But then, after this post, I’m not so sure I trust what you say.
Frankly, I don’t believe you.
Um, are you channeling Mr. Yoo?
Well they were on the news breifly in the main stream media. They awaited Palin at the Phildelphia convention center. There were about five of them all tatooed with matching T-Shirts.
The republican party has been very supportive latley of female candidates for high office. The chant I heard all too often from the left; during the democratic primary was “bros before hos.” Pretty sick if you ask me.
Oh and comparing other religions such as Christianity to Islam is ridiculous. According to the UN 5,000 women and girls are killed in honor killings in the Muslim world. Genital mutilation does not exist among Christians or any other religion I know of. Jesus did not marry a nine year old girl Mohammed did. But the left chooses political correctness over womens rights. It’s a very sad situation.
Jeff Google (Obama Supporters call Sarah Palin A C*nt-Where is the media.
This was in my city of brotherly love and was what Sarah Palin and her youngest daughter were greated with.
No. I am just stating my opinion, as is my GOD given right as an FREE MAN.
Please tell us which of the 183 times in March of 2003 that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded was/were successful, and which of the 83 times in August of 2002 that Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded was/were successful.
Your mom must have been so proud when you flunked out of troll school.
Friggin idiot! You are a transparent liar. If you are going to sling a bullshit narrative about “leaving the party” … at least try to not be such a ‘tard. Nobody in the DEMOCRATIC party would ever say they were leaving the “Democrat Party”. Period. You people really are impressively stupid.
Well, unless you consider the federal government to be “God”, it’s your constitution-given right to state an opinion. Of course the assertion you made touched on an issue of fact not opinion … and you got the facts completely wrong.
But seeing how you are unable to tell the difference between an omnipotent creator and words written on sheets of parchment not so many years ago, I figure the difference between “fact” and “opinion” is probably far beyond your ability to grasp.
I suppose we should be hopeful that the trolls might accidently read some of these posts before pasting in their talking points…subliminal learning over time perhaps.
Jeff Kaye said:
This is indeed the core of the problem. How can we convince the President and his administration that this nation is strong enough to handle the truth and its consequences… or are we not strong enough as a people? I suspect the layers and layers of lies, denials and diversions indicate a significant number of our leaders are the weakest among us.
I guess I still see inherent conflict to ask someone within the US gov, expert opinion on what is torture.
Great post. Thank you.
I bet they knew what answer the legal counsel and docs for the ICRC would give them as an expert opinion. There lies the reality of their policy motives.
Apparently we were getting useful intel from those individuals via interrogation. That is according to those who know, which you aren’t. The consensus within the intelligence community is that American Lives where saved because of this intel. Is it your position that saving American Lives is secondary to maintaining an IMAGE? I thought you CIP’s believed in the philosophy of “any means necessary?” Isn’t that one of the Marxist chants you use at your riots?
Huh, what Founding Documents are you reading? According to the Founding Documents of the United States of America, my RIGHTS come from MY CREATOR, not from the Government. So, enlighten me, what FACTS do I have wrong? By the way, it is those same documents that you refer to as “words written on sheets of parchment, that have historically set us apart from the rest of humanities governments. Those words are what America is all about. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with those documents and their importance to America, before you decide they are not relevant.
This has been an age old argument between the intention of the interplay between natural law, moral rights, universal law (another perspective of natural law) and civil law as well as the interpretation of “endowed”. The bigger focus is the wording on how the rights are secured. The document states:
Using ‘natural law” the drafters could appeal to both philosophers of the day as well as the religious.
One man’s natural law from God is another man’s natural law from the universe.
Thanks. OBTW, I made a mistake, the subsequent dry drowning symptoms can follow either wet or dry near-drownings.
Question: Is the term “learned helplessness” something of a psych term of art? Does it indicate a permanent or semi-permanent damage to the normal psyche? The military quotes rejecting SERE seemed to be treating it that way.
Hi ondelette,
I’m looking forward to Jeff’s next article about “learned helplessness”, but your question reminded me of what Air Force SERE psychologist, Dr. Jerald Ogresseg, told JPRA Chief of Staff Lt. Col. Dan Baumgartner when he asked about it on 7/22/02:
[The following is from the “Statement of Dr. Jerald Ogresseg” before the Senate Armed Services Committee, 6/17/08.]
http://armed-services.senate.gov/statemnt/2008/June/Ogrisseg%2006-17-08.pdf
It’s interesting that, instead of “extreme avoidance attitudes”,”OMS soothingly assures that” [as Jeff quote's above]:
…which is quite different.
There is something very rewarding when those who would posit as you have, make your opponents point for them.