“Lord, what fools these mortals be!” –Robin Goodfellow

What’s the emotionally satisfying narrative we’re going to use to replace the one they currently believe, so they can be co-opted? Or are we just going to point and laugh at them in self-congratulations of our supposed logical coherence?

Let’s hear it for home schooling and the Texas School Board.

So what?

Thanks for Enlightning. Great Job.

Very Informative Piece /s

At least I know, that when my welcome is wore out here and at all other places, where I can go.

White
over 55
Male
Christian

And who are these people?

It’s also been found that they love Wheel of Fortune too. And they hate Jeopardy.

Btw, how come you didn’t have a picture of that guy marching with his “Get a Life Morans” sign?

Hey Thanks MadHem

I can now Market to them (which of course is more useful than the rest of the dribble)

My guess is that they are wealthier on average than most Americans.
I remember walking away from a really nasty health care town hall in August thinking
that (1) a lot of these guys probably have guns, and (2) they drive some really nice cars.

These are not theoreticians.

Overall, 26 percent of those polled identified themselves as Tea Party backers, while 53 percent said they weren’t and 21 percent said they weren’t sure.

So based on this little sample of 1000 subjects, Bloomberg is estimating that 26% of Americans are Tea Partiers, potentially 75 million Americans. Wow, that was fast. I am sure no one is wagging anyone’s dog here.

Our current narrative is inadequate even for ourselves, so I entirely agree with you that a new inclusive vision is needed.

Cheers for analytic discipline. At least they make a big target.

Thanks BT.

These people are actually so woefully missinformed they are becoming dangerous. I think it is beyond something to snicker about and has become alarming. Small acts of physical violence, motivated by percieved “government takeover”, are growing in both frequency and intensity. Republicans are the enablers in this inspite of what Eric the idiot Cantor may say.

Maybe teabaggers are the only ones who still have landline phones.

I wish pollsters would add an age category beyond “55 and older.”

Now that I am beyond 55, it’s obvious that marketers and pollsters are sticking to the old categories as though nothing has changed. I really don’t think baby boomers are going to fall neatly into the typical attitudes of previous generations “over 55,” and I just wish there were a distinction between those members of the boom generation, and those 5 to 10 years older.

That’s where the big difference in attitude, social and political, really falls. People who are now 70 and older were the “silent generation,” who really bought into conformity and accepted authority. There’s a big difference between them and us.

That said, of course, not all boomers are “liberal,” by any stretch of the imagination. We have the horrible example of George Bush to represent those who jeered at “hippies” during the days of demonstrations and protests.

But I still think there’s a legitimate distinction to be made, and this cutting off age groups at 55 isn’t capturing it.

As if more evidence was needed to demonstrate the very tenuous grasp on reality most of these people have

I’m in total agreement with you. There is a common ground here that people on the left should be using to actually get something done in this country. However, I wouldn’t be surprised at all that once the left got on board, the tea party people would suddenly change their tune.

If I was running a government during a massive recession, I’d sure want to have a populist movement that I could control.

Hey that’s mean. :)

I wouldn’t be surprised at all that once the left got on board, the tea party people would suddenly change their tune.

Yeah, much like the R party, which invented the mandate (with subsidy!) to buy health insurance, is now running against it. ‘Cause now it’s a Dem idea, therefore evil incarnate.

“Yeah, it’s KEEP YOUR DAMN GOVERNMENT HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE!!1!, all over again.”

“Many are also Christian fundamentalists, with 44 percent identifying themselves as “born-again,” compared with 33 percent of all respondents.”

Terrifying. Folks hiding behind little crosses around their necks angry and hateful about people having access to health care.

We need to stop referring to fundamentalists as Christian. From my perspective, one needs to follow the teachings of Christ, even the icky help the sick and poor teachings, in order to qualify as “Christian”.

Ok, then, obviously there are some huge lines of agreement between those who sympathize with the teabag set and those of us who feel the government has not done nearly enough for the regular joe, particularly in regard to jobs. I understand calling out racism from teabag associates, but I don’t think we do ourselves any favors when we laugh at them for wanting government help, and when we don’t recognize a lot of the anger they have we have. Then we just split ourselves up. The foolish angry teabaggers who want this government to create more jobs, and those of us who are smart enough to see how foolish they are not to understand the concept of socialism, who also want our government to create more jobs. They spit at us. We laugh at them. The powerbrokers in Washington pass out more tax cuts for employers and expect us to be grateful.

but claim to have a direct line to god who must be telling them to make sure those less fortunate than they are should not have health care.

You know the “if God wanted you to have health care, he (she it) would have made you rich” crowd

Ya mean Eric Cantor’s chief of staff?

Nope, that’s all this lefty has. Have absolutely no use for a c-phone.

Republicans are the enablers in this inspite of what Eric the idiot Cantor may say.

Enablers is an interesting term. The veal pen enablers of the administration also come to mind. Everyone politican and journalist in DC seem like enablers these days, whatever their affiliation. Enable corporations and wall street at the expense of workers and main street.

I quit laughing at these folks at the appearance of the first racist sign.

Perfect example of enabling.

I humbly apologize that my cross terrifies you.

I’ll forgo my constitutionally enshrined rights so that you’ll feel less terrified and safer.

Will that do it for you?

(and by the way, my anger is coming from Not having access to affordable health care)

With 2 dwellings, it got a little old having 3 phone bills. Got rid of my landlines years ago.

Yep. That’s the guy. Heh!

The explosive rise in right wing hate groups of all ilk over the last year is deeply troubling.

Sarcasm becomes you. What’s the real source of your anger?

What they really are are authoritarians. These are people who like being told what to believe and what to do; by their pastors, by their military, and by any ignorant, dumbass demagogue who happens to wander by. There is an old saying in the Bible Belt that goes something like; If a meteor hits the ground in Oklahoma, someone will form a church around it and have 2000 people worshiping that rock as a manifestation of Christ himself within a month. These are ignorant, fearful people who believe anything they’re told to believe and disbelieve anything they are instructed to by their authority figures. Critical thinking is not something these people practice.

which are the only phones that work when the power goes out at the cell sites or in the advent of an EMP.

Bravo – Great Argument for Minimizing them !

I don’t get the impression that the baggers “want help” from the gov’t. The gatherings that I have seen on TV have been very well dressed (casually), neat looking people. They are not down-and-outs. They are over 50, white, bigots and racists, and are furious that anyone should get anything. The attitude seems to be “I earned mine but they didn’t.” Don’t know why they think that. And how would a hungry child earn money.

and eCahn, I have a land line.

I’ve got to think there must be racists on the left as well as the right. Wish someone would do some good research on that. It might help the idiots in the media fine tune their rhetoric on both sides when they dish the racist meme.

touchy much?

you’ve got to be kidding me SouthernDragon

You agree with someone who is terrified that I have a religious belief?

Btw, how come you didn’t have a picture of that guy marching with his “Get a Life Morans” sign?

Actually, I think the picture they do have is perfect for this entry. “Don’t Steal from Medicare to Support Socialized Medicine”!!!??! LOL!

LOL!

They are over 50, white, bigots and racists, and are furious that anyone should get anything.

Generalize much.

I think you over interpreted what Leen said. It is true that some do hide behind their religion while others bash people over the head with theirs.

The people I meet in their 80s (in retirement, not in nursing homes), are sharper, better informed, and, yes, more alive, than most of my daughter’s college-age friends. They may be last educated generation. I was dismayed when in 2007 I attended a Columbia University celebration of Jacques Barzun’s 100th birthday and found the provost and professors much below the quality of Barzun, Trilling, Bentley, Hofstadter, and other Columbia teachers of my day. So I would agree that “over 55″ does not form a single group.

If you think religious belief is what Leen was talking about then I’d say your reading comprehension skills need some improvement.

I am going by their own behavior. It’s “watch what I do, not what I say.” What they are really angry about is a black man in the WH. That “uppity.”

I don’t know many racists who openly admit it. Kinda hard to do research when the subjects have every reason to lie.

There seems to be quite a bit of logical fallacy on this thread. Because Teabaggers tend to be more white males over 55ers than is true in the pop as a whole, does not mean that every white male over 55 is a Teabagger. Nor does it mean that if one is not a white male over 55, one is not a Teabagger.

The poll says they want the government to do more about job creation. Further, it polled “sympathizers”, not necessarily protesters.

We have our very own Tbgr in our family, so I get a liitle sensitive when proggresives laugh at “them”. That said, I have to admit to laughing at her behind her back. Keeps me from crying. She is on SSI & medicare, but hates “government takeover of health care.” Go figure. When she brings up her Tbgr none sense, I call her a “closet Socialist” and that shuts her up right quick. After heated debate, we agreed that health care reform IS needed, but that mandates to Big Insurance are a violation of liberty. Sometimes it pays to reach out to people, even illogical people.

Ohh yes, the virtues of a selective memory!

If I had the life options that some of these folks in rural areas have, I would be fearful too. And out of my fear and anger willfully ignorant. And distrustful of critical thinking that might bring my real doubts to the surface and bother me with them.

And in the West, they lease ranches from the federal government. In parts of the Appalachians, they have family memories of the federal government taking their farms by eminent domain in order to make a national park or a national forest. And they have seen the federal government take their land in order to grant economic privileges to a large lumber company. In most of rural America, they depend on federal agricultural programs to survive or to remain well-to-do. But they have seen these programs benefit not small farmers but agribusiness. And by supporting thirty years of Republican ideas, they have bargained away a lot of their safety net on promises of wealth and freedom, but they are as economically captive as the were before.

And church is the only thing that keeps them waking up the next morning and plodding through another day.

Isn’t the military socialism? Most republicans just love supporting that form of socialism.

I have no doubt there are some. I am not convinced that is the motivation of their vast majority. I could be wrong, but I give their larger body the benefit of the doubt, even as I disagree with them on policy. Not comfortable jumping to accuse individuals of racism because some of their neighbors may be. Have no doubt there are some racists among progressives as well.

That’s what you have in a lot of rural America where cellphone service is crappy or nonexistent.

The Tea Baggers are the new Dead Enders.

And Glenn Beck is their Baghdad Bob.

The military is the source of jobs of last resort. And free training.

I don’t know if there are many racists on the left, but there are plenty of classists.

As a “white male” of that a certain age, thank you.

Me, too. Because I wanted to maintain the ability to fax without having to use free internet faxes. Especially when I fax to members of Congress, etc., or for business purposes.

It’s nice having a black man in the white house. This way we don’t have to end the arguments by calling our opponents Nazi’s, we can call them racists.

Right. That is why hard-core libertarians like Ron Paul (and your grandfather’s GOP) are oppposed to the American Empire.

Don’t disagree with that. The teabagger meetings that I’m speaking of were held inside, not a raging mob outside, and the people were as middle class as I am. I find this very difficult to understand because they don’t appear to lack for food and housing. But they seem to object to others having what they have – or even a little slice of it.

Isn’t the military socialism?

Yes, they do like their socialism and don’t forget about the roads, policeman, firefighters, justice system, Border Patrol and teachers. Strike that they don’t like teachers. They are against learnin.

Speaking for myself as a far leftist yes there is class to be dealt with. We have the ruling class and the working class. I want a better deal for the working class. It’s a struggle that’s gone on since feudalism.

No war but class war!!

How’s that?

It’s not the cross that terrifies me (grew up in the Catholic church) What terrifies me are those who are such fucking hypocrites as they call out to go blow everyone in Iraq (I have heard many people like this with crosses around their necks) scream this sort of hatred or fight against health care for others who are less fortunate or unable to access. Their are hundreds of thousands if not millions of Christians who hide behind their religions while they spew hatred and bigotry. I have heard it over and over again. Too bad you are unable to admit that these hypocrites and bigots hiding behind crosses out there

See, that’s a good point. Because more and more, the real divide in the country is between the haves and have nots. I spend a good amount of time around the 1% haves, and I can tell you they are quite comfortable and happy these days. And if the great unwashed 99% in the rest of the country want to bicker amongst themselves, they are even happier.

“79 percent are white, and 61 percent are men.” says a great deal

It’s that they think the govt is going to give it to them without having to work for it. When there’s 6-7 people for every job now they still believe that the unemployed have been living on the dole for years.

NPR reported with the aid of a NYTIMES Political expert (a fascist) this afternoon that teabaggers are a huge group that is mostly comprised of very nice people who are upset about the size and scope of the Fed Gubmint.

The death threats, of course, come from a fringe element of poor, simple minded frustrated folks within the group.

NPR is worse than FOX, becuz it is perceived as being liberal.

I grew up in the south and I can spot a racist from a mile away. They use the code words. I am 76 and have known people like this my entire life. The majority of the teabaggers would never harm anyone regardless of race. They are all mouth, but their words encourage the nutty fringe. We must see them as they really are or we are in trouble.

found the provost and professors much below the quality of Barzun, Trilling, Bentley, Hofstadter, and other Columbia teachers of my day

LOL, that’s funny. What an amazing group of profs (I guess you were there after William Casey retired), it’d be hard to find a professor anywhere that’s in that league.

Incidentally, the support for a federal jobs program is right up the alley of Democratic tea party speaker (and CT Senate candidate) Warren Mosler. If you’re not familiar with Modern Monetary Theory economics, his website is worth checking out.

Mosler’s agenda includes three main proposals: a full payroll tax holiday, a $500 per-capita distribution from the federal government to each state and a federal jobs program that would provide an $8-an-hour position to any unemployed person willing to work….

“I look at the tea party and I see a lot of concerned citizens who are unhappy, who believe the government has supported the elites,” he said. “They see their tax money going to AIG and the banks while they’re getting squeezed.”
http://moslereconomics.com/2010/02/26/connecticut-senate-race/

I get your point, but the majority of fire fighters are volunteer, not on government payroll. Just sayin’.

So you believe based on NPR and Bloomberg that there are 75 million Americans out there who are planning death threats on the Democrats in Congress.

So I’ll just come out with that to which other commenters here have alluded:

How is this news? WHY is it news?

Answer: It is not, and the more we (the editorial “we,” BT) perpetuate it, the farther away we get from our target: that new language of politics to which Jane’s latest post speaks.

Seriously – at what point do we stop giving a shit about this mostly made-up org and start leaving them behind by forging a new reality?

I think that is true in smaller towns. Cities have the pros.

Selise turned me on to this guy last year or the year before. I’m still not sure how I feel about him.

Man, is that ever a stretch. I don’t read anything like that in his comment.

My little town of Gulfport has a volunteer dept with 1 or 2 paid, the chief being 1. St Petersburg, Clearwater, St Pete Beach are all paid depts.

Mine, yours, or theirs? But evidence is available. Read Trilling and your favorite critic of today. Read Bentley and your favorite drama critic. Read Hofstadter and your favorite historian. Go to a retirement village and compare the residents and the college-age help. Read the letters column of any magazine 50 years ago and the comments here. Report your findings.

I don’t mean to affront. Really. But what else is implied than all teabaggers are interested in death threats and/or they are racists because we happen to have a black President.

Seriously – at what point do we stop giving a shit about this mostly made-up org and start leaving them behind by forging a new reality?

Preaching to the Choir doesn’t help us the more we understand their views and arguments the better we get. Tea Baggers want jobs this is a fact we can use!

Agreed, but nationwide it’s about 77% vol.

What I see coming out of NPR’s piece is that the movement is “huge.” I would disagree with that assessment. I see NPR as trying to puff up the Tea Party while marginalizing the crazies.

what is your problem with home schooling? (i’m assuming you have one because you are combining it with the texas school board – maybe my assumption is wrong?)

Read the letters column of any magazine 50 years ago and the comments here. Report your findings.

This sounds like an interesting project if your conclusions follow its your idea prove it.

Thank you. Will look up Casey and Mosler. I am Columbia ’68, if that rings a bell.

I’m reading it like with the Texas School Board messing up textbooks home schooling is the only choice for Lefty parents.

Well, then, socialism could obviously work in other industries.

I imply that the “Size and Scope of the Federal Government” as a political issue – a tool to infuriate the disenfranchised on the right – is a distraction, a sideshow – not a real issue.

Dubya grew the government. Dubya spied on us. Dubya increased the deficit. Reagan grew the government, Reagan increased the deficit.

Same for GHWBush/

Where is/was the faux outrage then?

These things are not subject to proof, only inspection. Look at the evidence and draw your own conclusions. I say the best films of Yasujiro Ozu are better than any fiction film of 2009. Decide for yourself. It is judgment, not proof.

More than 90 percent of Tea Party backers interviewed in a new Bloomberg National Poll say the U.S. is verging more toward socialism than capitalism, the federal government is trying to control too many aspects of private life and more decisions should be made at the state level.

At the same time, 70 percent of those who sympathize with the Tea Party, which organized protests this week against President Barack Obama’s health-care overhaul, want a federal government that fosters job creation.

i know it’s fun to laugh at other people, but i don’t think this is evidence of confusion or ignorance (not saying the evidence doesn’t exist) just that this isn’t it.

1. obama administration has committed trillions in support of the banksters. stiglitz, among others, calls this socialism for the rich. chomsky, among others, calls it socializing risk and privatizing profit.

i don’t think it’s ignorant or even wrong to say that we’re moving towards a form of corporate socialism and away from the kind of capitalism favored by someone like stiglitz.

the fed gov requiring we purchase health insurance and using the irs as enforcement agent is beyond what many people, not not just tea party folks, think is the fed gov trying to control too much of our private lives.

and what’s the conflict between being against obamacare and for a jobs program?

………

i know it’s great fun to laugh at others, especially when our own party is revealing itself to be a pack of corporatists and we’re having to deal with being punked by the very politicians we supported, but some reality based bashing would be more satisfying than this.

thanks for the explanation. that makes sense to me.

Great Debate !

Insult when all else fails. More Bravo.

Thanks selise – well said

Judge by what set of facts I like how 50′s cars look but I like hybrid and electric car tech and I can give reasons for those judgments.
Set up your own criteria judge and the rest of us will decide if we agree.

You’re projecting things into their thinking that simply aren’t represented in the poll.

Is the VA not “socialized medicine”? Of course it is. But only 10% of them acknowledge that.

Why?

I’m not talking about preaching (and if this post isn’t that, I don’t know what is…), I’m talking about action, versus distraction.

If you’re content being told what everybody already knows, that’s O.K. But it’s not telling us anything we didn’t already know. Tea Baggers want jobs? Like everyone else? Really??

Cognitive Dissonance we should be running clips of GOPers attacking things like the VA and unemployment that the baggers like we need to divide them.
A vote for the GOP is a vote to cut VA benefits and Unemployment should be our campaign slogan.

BT, a standard GOP line throught the HC debate was that the legislation relied on “stolen” money from the Medicare trust fund and reduced benefits to seniors to pay for it. That’s why the assaults on the “Keep your government hands off my Medicare” line are overdone.

Whats wrong with preaching?

If you’re content being told what everybody already knows,

Not everyone knows this this blog educates people. If you have an idea for action suggest it if its interesting and somewhat on topic we will discuss it.
You can also do a diary I am all for action but informed action to act against the GOP we must all know what we face.
If you already know then suggest action if you have a plan.

It is my understanding that is corporatism, as Mussolini said is the “merger of corporate powers and state.” Though I do agree, it serves no purpose to call them “stupid.” Ignorant of history and economic and political systems, however. Most libertarians and socialist know it is corporatism. We are completely opposite in end result but know what we are living in and how such a system will bury this country. Republicans seem to know that our economic system is changing but they are wrong that it is socialism.

I agree with Selise we can get some Baggers on our side especially if the Corporate GOP keeps pushing them away. I do not want the racists in the baggers to join us but I don’t think they would anyway.

that part i agree with — but the first three paragraphs you quote as evidence of ignorance do no such thing.

good point. the cms reports i read of the senate and house bills did show cuts to medicare funding.

I think the libertarians should break with Republicans. They are the ones that could get the “baggers” on their side. Seems that would help the “baggers” to better understand they are being used by the GOP. We would be both working together to marginalize both the GOP and Centrist Dems, corporatist, at the same time. ???

Ok. In a 1950s magazine,

Set up your own criteria judge and the rest of us will decide if we agree.

would be at a minimum,

Set up your own criteria, judge, and the rest of us will decide if we agree.

I judge that on the basis of grammar, the 1950s is superior to 2010. I don’t care if you or the “rest of you” agree with my judgment. As I said, judge for yourself. To me, judging for yourself is more important than agreeing me. A vote is irrelevant.

Yes it does. Their disdain for “socialism” (not corporate fascism) is incongruous with their desire for gubmint jobs.

On the basis of selective memory the grammar of the 1950′s beats 2010? People of the 50′s and 2010 have both remarked that the Mayor Daley’s of Chicago Father and Son both spoke english like it was a second language. Thus with one example I throw a wrench in your conclusion.
Subjective truth where you won’t even identify the criteria for your judgement does sound iffy.
A vote here normally means an argument on an idea where reasons and evidence is presented and defended.
Everyone who disagrees gets to have their say and then what they say is discussed.
Judging for yourself is fine but without evidence your opinions are just that opinions.

Jane is on it I admit me and a few others are leery of the Ron Paul people because some are racist but yes Jane is trying to bring some of them over and they certainly have been showing up in the comments and even the diaries.

I like Mr. Dooley, too.

OT: You know, from a European perspective it’s really strange to see “socialism” not used with Karl Marx’s original definition, but as a shorthand for “things the state does.”

To me, judging for yourself is more important than agreeing me. A vote is irrelevant.

I judge for myself but how can I judge your ideas if I can’t know why you made your choices? I made no mention of agreeing with you. As far as a vote goes after debate on issues the winning side here tends to get bigger there is no formal vote.
If your ideas are to weak to handle debate then just how sure are you of your judgments? You can like 50′s cars for whatever reason’s you choose thats an opinion but opinions can be wrong.
For example if you say you like 50′s cars because they are more fuel efficient or faster than today’s cars. That would be false.
Your statements about grammar can be proved and argued about all it takes is some work and expertise in the area you made a judgement in apparently sans facts.
Google grammar test scores from the 50′s and today and factor in the different high school graduation rates at the very least.
Research on the fly is one of the things we are proud about here.

Thats da Mayor :)

I will grant you Bush 1 speaks much better than Bush 2 but then again I have seen recent immigrants running the McDonalds drive through who speak better than that.
But thats only a few observation on my part it does not prove a trend.

“stuff I don’t like” may sound like a put-down, but I’ve been seriously trying to figure out what these folks mean by “socialism” and getting nowhere beyond some global objection to government involvement in their lives (except for the military and a other specific government programs that they are already accustomed to and benefit from) and taking their money for someone else’s benefit.

So . . . the liberals are in favor of cutting medicare? “Cut medicare! Yay health care bill!” I thought liberals liked helping people via the government?

The difference, of course, is that the tea partiers (and everyone else) have paid into medicare their whole lives, and now that they are are older, the medicare program that was there for others is going to be cut for them.

They paid for that program their whole working life, and now they feel entitled to it. That’s why it’s called an entitlement. I think it’s sad to mock such vulnerable people, when they are the ones whose medical benefits are being cut – to the cheers of the liberals. I find that odd.

just saying … it is hard to see yourselves, sometimes … enjoy your weekend

So . . . the liberals are in favor of cutting medicare?

No.

Hope that helped.

But they won’t stick around very long with all the vitriol and hate that is directed in their direction.

so i guess when stiglitz talks about socialism for the rich, you call him ignorant too? i’m pretty sure he’s in favor of government jobs too. in fact he’s had a couple.

maybe not liberals, and i don’t know about the final bill (will wait for the cms report) but even the house bill cut medicare funding.

so maybe i should say that the dems in the house wanted to cut medicare?

Actually we’re very much in favor of expanding Medicare, as in Medicare-for-all. We objected to the health care reform bill because it mandates getting insurance from private insurance companies (which happens to be the opposite of socialism).

After this who needs FireDogLake?

http://maryandleo.tumblr.com/post/476102903/from-a-dictionary-of-modern-english-usage-by-h-w

No need to respond: I won’t see it.

Where are you going to end up at?