[Welcome Catherine Lutz and Anne Lutz Fernandez, and Host Katie Alvord]
[As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
Carjacked: The Culture of the Automobile and Its Effect on Our Lives
“Once upon a time, the American met the automobile and fell in love,” wrote John Keats in his 1964 critique of car culture, The Insolent Chariots. “Unfortunately, this led him into matrimony, and so he did not live happily ever after.”
Nearly a half-century after Keats wrote this (given the era, I’ll overlook the gender bias in his wording), and more than a hundred years since the advent of cars, we’re still not at happily ever after. In fact, the car continues to pose big economic, health, safety and social problems, as deftly detailed by Catherine Lutz and Anne Lutz Fernandez in Carjacked: The Culture of the Automobile and its Effect on our Lives.
Carjacked joins a hefty body of literature critiquing our automotive transportation system, including my own work Divorce Your Car! Ending the Love Affair with the Automobile, released in 2000. Do we need another critique of car culture? My answer is a resounding yes. While such books all tell us about the problems cars cause and about better, greener, more economical and socially just approaches to transportation, what they say gets swamped by the ongoing tsunami of marketing messages that coax us to embrace automobiles. As the authors of Carjacked write, this relentless marketing leads us to “take the car for granted as a social good, which renders it nearly invisible as the source of a range of problems.”
Like most car critiques,Carjacked exposes the massive costs cars impose on society, in everything from dollars to deaths. But it also explores new territory by grounding its stories and analysis in anthropological interviews with American drivers, people who eagerly shared “delights, frustrations, and tragedies resulting from the car system.”
Spurred by the loss of close friends and relatives in car crashes, the authors wrote this book to explore the contradictions inherent in car culture. “Once we had asked how something that we relied on so much could cause so much pain,” they write, “we also found ourselves wondering how something so terribly dangerous could bring us such tremendous pleasure.” So the two of them – Catherine an anthropologist from Brown University, and Anne a businessperson with extensive marketing experience – decided to research “how Americans live with the car on a day-to-day basis – how it structures their lives and how they feel about it.”
The result is a book whose gist can be summed up with one look at its brilliant cover, silhouetting a man bowed under the weight of the car he carries on his shoulders. Look past the cover, and you’ll find the stories and analysis that point out what a burden to us the car has really become.
After a chapter summing up conditions that make us the “United States of Automobiles,” home to more vehicles than licensed drivers, Carjacked examines our automotive illusions. Chapter Two, “Dream Car,” looks at movies and marketing, branding and beliefs, and how they shape an automobile mythology that largely obscures the costs and problems that come with basing transportation so heavily on cars. The book then goes on to take an in-depth look at the realities of car culture:
• how aggressively cars are marketed and sold, with $18 billion per year spent by automakers on ads mostly for TV, “ making it impossible to channel surf without landing on an ad for a car, SUV, or truck.”
• manipulation of consumers in the process of the car purchase itself: “Dealer tactics that are not simply unethical but baldly illegal are unfortunately not rare.”
• how the dollar price we pay is actually much more than we realize: by 2003, car transport “swallowed one in five dollars spent” by American households.
• how cars contribute to social and economic inequality: “The automobile has largely cemented and accentuated class and race divisions in America.”
• the factors that encourage us to drive more and more: at just 16 percent of car trips, “commuting isn’t the main culprit. …. The numbers of other types of trips have exploded.”
• how cars sicken us and our environment: cancer risks increase “within 150 to 500 yards of major roads, although some studies find these cancer corridors can be as wide as a mile on either side.”
• how – and how much – automobiles kill and maim: “The advent of SUVs has made America less safe. But even if all of our SUVs magically disappeared, cars would still be the deadliest factor in most of our environments.”
Since writing Divorce Your Car!, I’ve hoped we would reach a tipping point at which enough people would see the ways car problems outweigh their benefits that we would renegotiate the love affair. Like a kid on a car trip, I’ve been wondering, “Are we there yet?” And in fact, the authors of Carjacked think we are. The book identifies 2008 as a tipping point in our car culture. That year, gas prices shot over $4 per gallon, and it was the beginning of the end for the Hummer. Small car sales overtook SUVs. Not only gas prices but also widespread financial collapse pulled the already ailing auto companies into bailout territory. Conditions are thus ripe, Lutz and Lutz Fernandez believe, for a real change in our relationship with cars.
The book concludes with a chapter advocating a two-fold approach to fostering that change, first by reducing our individual car dependence, and second, by increasing our collective alternatives, primarily transit. “Our prescription does not require us to give up the real freedom that cars can provide,” the authors write. “It does, however, point us toward a healthier, more balanced car culture that minimizes the manifold prices we pay for this freedom.”
By tallying the costs of car culture and suggesting constructive ways to become less car-dependent, Carjacked can help us first to see and then to move out from under the burdens imposed by car culture.



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Catherine, Anne, Welcome to the Lake.
Katie, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hello!
Hi, thanks for having us.
Thank you, Bev, and welcome, Anne and Catherine! I’m delighted to be here to chat about your book.
So — we’ve been Carjacked! What are the biggest costs of this to American families?
American families lose ou in terms of their finances, their health and safety, and their quality of life.
Hi welcome to the Lake, this should be fascinating.
Good afternoon Anne, Catherine and Katie and welcome to FDL this afternoon.
I have not had an opportunity to read this book (or your either Katie) so forgive me if I state the obvious.
I guess I’m not a good car loving ‘Murican as I drive a ’92 Ford Escort that even as it falls apart still gets roughly 30 MPH.
Fortunately, I never let my car be my status symbol and statement of self worth.
Welcome to Firedoglake – glad you could join us today!
The average family spends $14,000 a year on owning and operating the two cars typically owned, for one thing. A pretty amazing number.
And traffic deaths are way down with the recent drop in driving, but they remain the leading killer of people between the ages of 3 and 34 in the US.
Yes, finances are big. One of the things you write in your book is: “If every family in America that owns multiple cars owned one less, as a nation we could reduce household debt by $1.4 trillion.” That’s huge! Why so much?
We did talk to some like you who hold onto their cars for a good long time–and it is the route to wealth as we found when we talked to personal finance experts.
The number is so staggeringly large because so few people buy their cars with cash these days and thus we are carrying an incredibly heavy debt load to own the cars that we own. We’ve become payment shoppers who think about the monthly payment and don’t look at the overall automotive debt load, so our financing costs associated with car ownership are significant. And over recent years we’ve been spending more on each car, until the recession trading in earlier and earlier for each new model, and piling on options and accessories and looking for luxury and even the most humble models
We also spend an incredible amount of time in our cars. 18 1/2 hours a week is the average there, and some of the drivers we interviewed for our book had even higher numbers.
For me, it has only been a useful utility that gets me from point A to point B.
That being said, if I could afford it, I wouldn’t mind having a Porsche or Mercedes
Also, on traffic deaths, I know some play down the number of car deaths and injuries in this country, but Carjacked points out that certain other countries have much lower vehicle death rates than in the U.S. What accounts for this?
Dear Catherine Lutz,
Thanks so much for your other book which I bought and read: “The bases of empire: the global struggle against U.S. military posts.”
If this new book is as informative as the one above, enjoy all your success. Thanks again and have a nice day!
The average amount people paid for a new car this year was over $28,000 with near 90% financed.
So even the most practical of us have our “dream cars”, often the cars we started hankering after as children or teens.
Thanks!
All the time in our cars probably is one reason people use them as mobile living rooms, dressing rooms, and more! You write of your own driving lives, “If this were a job, each of us would have been at it … for more than six years of our lives.” How aware do you think people are of the time they spend in and lavish on cars?
Katie, Most adults we talked to were shocked by the national average. Some agreed to keep trip diaries for us and were surprised to see how much time they spend in their cars–for those of us in the suburbs, the time spent has crept up often without us noticing, unless we suddenly took on a new commute.
1.2 million people died in vehicle crashes around the world last year, according to the World Health Organization, so the story is bad all around, but some countries, Sweden, for example, have much lower rates achieved via a more regulated car industry and a concerted government campaign to lower deaths in other ways. One other solution is more public transit — a much safer mode of travel — and simply less time on the road.
But interestingly, the teens and young adults, particularly in suburban or exurban areas, were less surprised–they as a generation have spent so much time being driven here and there.
That’s so interesting. I think the trip diaries are a great idea. It probably helps people see something else you point out, that commuting is not the main thing contributing to our trips. Are people surprised by this?
Yes! In our interviews with drivers many felt helpless about how much driving they do and they often blamed it on their commutes. But the numbers tell a different story. While we may travel more miles for our commutes, we’re spending a lot of time stuck in traffic and taking more trips to run errands and go shopping than we are to get to work. So this means that much of the driving that we’re doing is discretionary. And we can cut back on it by trip chaining, walking in some cases to shop, by shopping on the Internet – and of course by shopping less.
Greetings and welcome to FDL.
I am going to take a guess that Catherine and Anne are sisters and are NOT related to Bob Lutz.
I agree with you about transit as a safer means of travel that could really help cut the vehicle death rate, and you advocate a shift to using more of it. Your book says, “Now is the ripest moment in the history of the car system to retool the auto industry into a transit industry.” What if any signs have you seen that this might be happening?
Another reason we are driving so much is to take our kids to school–bus ridership, walking, and biking have plummeted as kids are being driven or driving to school.
No relation. If we were family, we obviously would have been cut out of the will by now!
I’ve noticed this link of car trips with shopping. One thing I’ve found is that shopping with a bicycle trailer instead of a car helps me stick to the necessities!
Yeah. But then, if I had one of those cars, I doubt I would ever be in the market ever again for a new anything.
Another method: The bicycle. If at all possible, try to use a bike when shopping for anything less than five miles from where you live. It’s faster than walking, you can carry more (bike panniers and racks are lovely), and you have the same freedom of movement, with a good fraction of the speed (at least on city streets where cars are limited to 30 mph for safety reasons) of the automobile.
Funny!
I really love this family angle about your book. You open Carjacked with a scene from a family trip: “In the way-back of a sky blue Pontiac station wagon, we lie cozily wrapped in well-worn car blankets, bouncing home.” It’s a great opening both because the family car trip is so iconic, and because you’re sisters. How did that relationship affect your collaboration on this book?
There was a great move to use public transit with the gas price spike of 2008, and many have continued riding. Billions in stimulus funds were also spent on mass transit, so the direction of change is positive.
Absolutely. And we were surprised to find out how effective radio advertising is in encouraging drivers to shop more than they intended when they hopped in the car.
Hi, what will you two say to me if I say that I want a nice muscle car? That I should give up?
I don’t want to give up on my dreams because of this.
We could finish each other’s sentences, for one thing!
Great comment. I have used both panniers and a bike rack as well as a bike trailer. My panniers are just the right size to slide a grocery bag inside. I generally use cloth bags that I can slide in and out of the panniers.
Yes, and for that reason and others in the past few years, bicycling has grown dramatically as a mode of everyday transportation, even among those who must drive to work.
After having been raised in NYC where to own a car is grounds for a psychiatric examination, and staying carless even here in Savannah (where it’s NOT easy, given the wretched bus system) I finally broke down and bought a hybrid car when lugging groceries got to be too much for this old broad. Then they sold my apartment out from under me and the house I bought was nowhere near anything approaching a convenient bus route. Not being a moron I bought a house 2 miles from work. The car is a box on wheels that gets me to work, to run errands, and to church. Other than that it sits in the driveway. I wish I didn’t need it.
Hello ferrarimanf355! We interviewed a number of people with car screen names like you, who loved their cars for all sorts of interesting reasons. The car does provide a lot of positives for a lot of people, so we don’t argue that no one should own a car. We argue for more conscious choices when we buy cars, more awareness of what the costs and tradeoffs are.
How do you deal with the following rant (variations on which I see coming up whenever someone like Atrios talks about more trains and less cars):
“Damned liberals! First you wanna take away our guns, then our freedom of movement! You wanna force us all to live in the city, where everything’s expensive and dirty! Some of us LIKE healthy country living and having farms! Where would you be without farmers, huh?!?! Are you going to outlaw those, too?”
I’m not so sure–many owners of luxury cars we spoke to still had their eye on the next new thing!
Okay, since you’ve brought up advertising, Anne, let me ask about that. I see it as a major force keeping us locked into our relationship with cars. What do you think – is it THE major force?
Our book encourages us all, wherever we live, to look at how dependent we are on our vehicles and how we might improve our lives by spending less on transportation. We advocate for a saner transportation mix as compared to the one we have now, where the vast majority of private and public funds go to the car system.
Dear Catherine Lutz,
I have been an advocate of this country being hooked up to trains for travel for years ansd years and it’s too bad that these development projects have not been more popular.
I plan on buying your book as well. You bring many valuable insights into the public discourse. Take care and enjoy your success.
If you do a book tour, please come to the state of Connecticut. Many fine bookstores here from the UCONN Co-Op to the Yale Bookstore and Broad Street Books–the Wesleyan University bookstore.
The relationship between our ability to do with less car or with no car altogether has a lot to do with where we choose to live in relation to work — so you are in good shape that way. Even a little closer would help. But the cost of car ownership is so high when you add it all up that you really can take cabs, use rental cars on occasion, or buy a lovely electric bike, and still come out way ahead.
The solutions to reducing car dependence will vary from region to region, city, suburb, to country. And reducing car dependence doesn’t necessarily mean going car-free. We’re not trying to take anyone’s car!
Okay, as long as I can get my Mustang or Camaro, it’s all good. And as long as I can use an Amtrak train to transport my baby to car shows, it’s all good.
As a former marketing executive, I believe it is tremendously important. In the book we explain that the car system that we have now, with a landscape built around a car, reinforces our dependency on automobiles. But that system would never have become so entrenched if it had not been for the year after year spending by the auto companies on advertising to us. Each year the automakers are the biggest spenders on advertising. And this advertising taps well and deeply into American values that we hold dear, such as freedom, independence, individualism, and family.
Re advertising–we also looked at the marketing more broadly because in addition to advertising the automakers spent a great deal on promotion, publicity, sales incentives and now social media. For example, each year millions attend auto shows where they are paying an admission price to pay for the privilege of being marketed to. We buy automotive magazines and we watch Hollywood movies in which automobiles are often character and setting. So while we may think we can resist individual ads for individual car makes and models, we swim in a culture that is infused with car marketing.
We will be at the Brown Bookstore in Providence, RI this coming Wednesday at 4, the Redwood Library in Newport, RI on April 1st at 6, and the Westport Public Library in Connecticut on April 5th at 7:30.
Lovely ideas, but I’m crowding 65 and have arthritis so I don’t really see myself biking to work. Cabs don’t patrol here — you call a cab company and it may or may not show up when you ask. I’m stuck with my little hybrid.
Catherine, this is a good point you make about the cost of cabs and rental cars on occasion is still lower than the cost of owning a car, in many cases. The first time I went car-free, I lived in the country, a $30 cab ride from the main city center near me. For the number of times I needed to take a cab, it was still cheaper than owning a car.
Marion, is cycling an option for you? Two miles is a nice easy distance — you could ride in fifteen minutes or less (much less if you turn out to be a fast rider).
Car shows are fun no matter how you get there, but you should definitely check out the cost to own of either car on Edmunds.com. It will take your breath away.
Given the health costs of cars, some transportation activists have suggested auto advertising should be banned, based on rationales similar to what’s led to limiting the advertising of cigarettes. What do you think of this?
Well, the arthritis doesn’t help. And I can tell you haven’t spent much time in Savannah during the warm weather. They don’t have a shower at work…
The best solution for a lot of people, if they can get a job there (a big if) is a compact city where there is good bus service or its walkable.
….technically challenged, am I….
Yes, we’ve become increasingly convinced that it needs to be regulated. We’ve noticed a substantial increase in advertising to children both on children’s programming but also in terms of the content of the commercial. And if advertising of cigarettes and alcohol to children is abhorrent to us, advertising of cars should be more so as they kill more children when they are children than do these drugs.
Marion, I think your situation is also a great example of why we really need to advocate for better transit, all around. I have a chapter on transit and other forms of shared transportation in Divorce Your Car! and Carjacked really promotes transit.
Well, if you can move from your job (where so many of us are held captive by health insurance) and actually find a job in a compact city that sounds great.
This targeting of children for auto advertising is really incredible. Can you say more about how that’s being done?
Also on the advertising question: how do you think it should be regulated?
the last two places i rented and the place i’ve bought and have been living in for two years have been within walking distance to hiking trails. it’s one of the things i do often, if not daily. in the case of my present location, however, the trade-off is having the trails out my back door vs. having to drive any time i shop or run an errand. the roads that get me to shopping are all major roads that i wouldn’t feel safe bicycling on. and walking back and forth would probably take a good part of the day. i did get a hybrid, but of course that’s an expensive car in the first place. i’m not sure what else i can do. i already try to consolidate trips as i’m not fond of shopping or driving!
Real functioning public transit is the ideal. Short of that, promoting car pooling and high occupancy vehicle lanes is a minor start. We have some folks in my office who live waaaaay out of town (no jobs there) who carpool, either taking turns driving or chipping in to pay for gas and wear and tear on the driver’s car.
Welcome Catherine and Anne…
Bikes vs cars is a sore subject in Portland OR, and I won’t go there!
I think that one needs to see a slightly bigger picture of the place of the auto in the lives of men, particularly.
What was the attraction before the auto? The horse, for just about the same reasons as today, or at least when the muscle cars appeared. Bikes don’t make it unless a motor is attached and it says Harley!
The freedom implied by fast individual transit cannot be disregarded. In 1937, a giant in photography, Edward Weston, received the first Guggenheim grant for Photography. He would not have been able to execute the goals of the grant except for the auto, and he had one loaned to him at that.
Being also a photographer, I can attest to the value of such transportation. Lacking that, I would, along with my SO, be riding a horse, dragging a burro with the necessary gear to make it work.
Even a high speed rail system extending the light rail from Portland to the beach and the mountains would absolutely involve personal transportation at the hubs, just to get around.
So any system I would like to see would have a significant network of loaners available at the terminal points. I would support that.
Are you coming to Austin?
A recent Kia Sorento ad is a great example. It aired during the Super Bowl and I watched as two tween boys got very excited by it. The vehicle is an SUV, mind you. Not very glamorous to young boys, right? Well, the ad features a giant sock monkey, a character from the show for toddlers called Yo Gabba Gabba, and a teddy bear, among other toys come to life. They go on a joyride to Vegas, get tattooed, go dancing, and have a ball. There’s no question it was meant to appeal to children and it does. SUVs are fun!
Another transit question — In Carjacked you write about how government – heavily influenced by the oil and auto industries – has disproportionately funded support for private cars over public transit. What do you think is the right balance?
I think it’s important to assess your own situation in finding a location, and do the best you can. I can understand deciding to locate near hiking trails so you don’t have to drive to take a hike! I have done that, too.
Tough choice. Is car sharing an option? If we live near friends or family, it really makes sense to think about joint ownership or informal sharing. In doing our research, we discovered that a huge segment of America’s less well off family do that for financial reasons, but really anyone can who lives near people they are close to.
A couple of thoughts–the freedom represented by the car absolutely is rooted in reality. Yet, there is also no question that the IDEA of this freedom is more potent than the reality and it is this idea that has let to an overcommitment of national and household resources toward car ownership.
On your second point, we think transportation needs to be seen as a mix–not an either/or. And that mix will be different from town to town, region to region, individual to individual.
Is that an invitation?! Stay at your house?
About the folks who live out of town and carpool: this happens in my area as well, and I have seen friendships blossom and community connectedness strengthened because of this sharing of transportation.
Well, for my work anyway, the idea and the reality are one and the same. Weather and light wait for no one. But I realize this is but one aspect, and relatively minor, I suppose.
Catherine, you bring up car sharing. To me, this seems to have great potential for reshaping the way we travel. What do you think?
Both content and media placement could be regulated. Ads such as the Kia one I mentioned, which include characters popular to children, or ads that feature children clearly desiring cars such a recent commercial where kids are seen gaping at a Town and Country could be disallowed.
Advertising on children’s networks like Nickelodeon or children’s shows could be banned.
Car and oil companies are the largest, most powerful corporations on the planet. And they have had their way with public policy, with the visible result that an area the size of the state of Georgia has been paved for the car. The right balance, Katie, is what is sustainable for families and the environment. Fortunately, those go together.
now that’s a VERY interesting idea. you’ve planted a lovely seed. i don’t have family nearby, but i might start a conversation with some of my neighbors. one of them had a car to commute to work for a while that was shared. not sure what happened to that. i’ll talk with her about it for starters.
While Americans were buying larger and larger cars over the last several decades, there were fewer and fewer people in those cars, now an average of 1.6 people per trip. But people who talked with us about car sharing and car pooling found the social aspects to be a big boon along with the financial savings.
I totally agree with Anne’s point about transportation needing to be a mix. The problem with our current system is that we’re too often stuck in a kind of monogamy with the car. In Divorce Your Car! I write about the need to “play the field!” And Anne’s point about fitting transportation to the circumstances is also well taken. Too often our mindset is trip equals car, which is something, again, that advertising reinforces.
Many car owners we spoke to, and auto marketing executives echoed this, saying that they like the idea that they can get in their car and go wherever they want to. But the reality is we rarely take those leisure trips or escape the daily grind. More often we are truckin’ to work or on the errand runs.
Okay, here’s a question inspired by your comment that we’ve paved an area the size of Georgia. n Carjacked, you suggest a “pavement moratorium” as part of a strategy to shift public funding to transit. What do you mean by that?
That was, “In Carjacked, you suggest ….”
oh definitely stay at my house. i was asking if you’re coming for a book tour. book people, for sure and whole life books and book woman and monkeywrench books are the independents that would be good to check out. in any case, you’re welcome here on book tour or not. feel free to get my email address from the moderators here at fdl.
Catherine, I also want to follow up on your comment that what’s sustainable for families and for the environment go together. Can you say more about this?
Actually, your username reminds me of “The Starbucks Effect” that a travel expert named Nancy McGuckin identified–the dramatic increase in car trips to get a single cup of coffee or a light meal. In the six-year period she studied, 1.5 million additional trips were taken by Americans for this purpose.
Thinking about the environment: the “Climategate” news broke after your book had gone to print, is that right? Plus people have been confused by the snows in the east (a phenomenon that’s consistent with global warming, by the way, but counterintuitive). Now the belief that climate change is a serious problem is eroding. How do you think that’s affecting our attitude toward cars and their environmental effects?
Well, that is just about the practical condition today. I devoutly wish for what I described to be true. I don’t like the long drives to get to places I want to work, and a few hours on fast rail with a laptop to work the images is a dream.
I have done coast to coast Amtrak where the destination was a major city, NYC to be exact. I did not rent a car there, nor in Chicago, my intermediate stop. I did very well with the camera in NYC. That gave me the thought about a integrated mixture in transportation, back in 1988 or so.
Those drives are my daily grind! :)
1.5 million additional trips to get coffee …. we need to buy carbon offsets along with our morning brew!
A pavement moratorium is the idea that the states and localities should not be building any additional lanes of roadway, but instead investing in maintenance of the roads and bridges we already have to make them safer and in mass transit. Not only can’t we afford it, but it doesn’t work to ease congestion: driving rates just go up and the new lanes are soon just as congested as the old. The famous urban planner Mumford once said that building more lanes to deal with traffic jams is like letting out your belt to deal with an obesity problem.
Growing concern about climate change was one of the elements that we believed meant we were at the tipping point in car culture when we were writing the book. There is a small but growing percentage of the American population that is acting meaningfully on environmental concerns. For example the bicycling community is growing ever stronger and walking to school efforts continue to increase. However we recognized then and now that financial concerns have always trumped environmental concerns for most Americans and so the recession may be a more important factor than Climategate in why people are less concerned about climate change.
Money has been the predominant factor in whether people buy fewer cars and drive less. The recent recession has caused many people who never kept a budget before to examine where their money goes and once people do that and realize how much their car or cars are costing them, they start to cut back both on driving and frequency of buying and the types of cars they buy. At this point, we believe that greater financial literacy is one of the keys to changing car culture.
Hi Starbuck, how was your experience with Amtrak? I have done lots of long-distance train travel as well.
LOL1
I picked Starbuck because from Moby Dick to some characters in current novels, I resonated with it.
My SO was critical because of Starbucks!
Do carbon offsets come in grande?
Anne, I want to follow up on your mention of the tipping point in car culture. You’ve identified 2008 as the year when this started to happen, for the reasons you just mentioned. Where do you think we are with this now? Still tipping, or …?
LOL!! Offsets should come in flavors, too!
We found that the many car owners we interviewed were rarely aware of anything like the full cost of what they were paying to have a car — most people now are payment shoppers and think their monthly payment will just need a little gas money and insurance payment to go with it and they are all set. In fact, you have so many other costs, including depreciation, parking, fees, and so on. That number is $14,000 per family, according to Department of Energy and AAA stats. So that is not sustainable in the sense that this is a good chunk of the average American household income, and it takes away from the ability to save for college or retirement or health needs.
So if people realize what the true total is — not to mention what are considered the externalized costs some of which we pay for in local and federal taxes — they will have more incentive to buy less car and drive less.
We have done many trips like that, starting in the mid 60′s before Amtrak. One of those trips (pre-Amtrak) was a horror stuck in the Rockies in the snow. Almost a mutiny aboard!
But in general, we love it. We try to do off season travel, avoiding the crowds.
The stories my SO and I have about the people we met are delightful. One woman traveled from Manhattan to SF with hardly any luggage. She called herself “The Latin from Manhattan” and was the very picture of that phrase!
I’d love to hear from others, too, about this idea of a tipping point in American car culture. What do you all think about this? Have we, in fact, reached a tipping point in our relationship with cars?
i just went to the “carjacked” website to try and give you my email address, but i didn’t find a way to contact you on the site. i’m not on facebook.
When we were writing the book, we saw environmental concerns, worsening traffic, and the recession as key reasons why Americans were ripe for a change. And the recession has cut spending on new vehicles dramatically and has caused Americans to reduce the number of miles they drive. There are some signs in recent months that this may not continue–car sales have been a bit perkier and driving may be picking up.
On the other hand, the auto bailouts are more unpopular than the bank bailouts, so Americans are less willing to support the car system as taxpayers. And the Toyota debacle and other recent recalls have reminded us how dependent we are on our cars for our personal safety–because they are the most dangerous element in most of our environments.
We’ll fix that, but you can reach me at Catherine_Lutz at brown dot edu.
[Edited by Moderator to save from email being picked up by bots surfing by]
Your stories about Amtrak travel are great! I, too, have met so many lovely people on the train, some of whom still contact me from time to time. It’s a very relaxing means of travel.
Anne, didn’t you tweet a great slogan about this lately that Amtrak is using in its advertising? I don’t quite recall the wording – do you remember?
Side note–you might enjoy a short story named “Cannibalism in the Cars” by Mark Twain about US congressmen stuck in a snowstorm on a train.
I was filling up my car–yes, it’s a Prius–and Amtrak had a great ad right above the pump: “Take the Road Less Frazzled.”
You mention the Toyota debacle, the bailouts, our continued economic problems — we’re in “interesting times” for the auto industry (I’m thinking here of that Chinese curse, “May you live in interesting times”). Given all this, how do you see the industry’s future?
Anne and Catherine, I want to also be sure to mention a recent guest post you wrote for Anderson Cooper’s blog, AC360 –
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/01/29/cash-for-clunkers-the-gift-that-keeps-on-taking/
In this, you wrote: “Many Americans have … become convinced that their personal financial well-being and the health of the auto industry are inextricably linked. But the opposite is often true.” How much is this confusion of personal with industrial well-being specific to the auto industry, and how much is it a broader problem?
The industry is in great flux–if the government continues to protect them from themselves through bailouts and through lax regulation they might be better positioned for the long term.
It seems there were several, back to the first gas sticker shock of the 70′s. I was driving a Peugeot 504 then, and didn’t mind too much but the rest of my colleagues were pissed, to put it mildly.
Each of these “events” were rolled back in some fashion to ameliorate the unrest, unfortunately.
That sounds interesting!
I am a complete Amtrak fan. You meet folks, you read the paper, and the seats are very comfy. I am lucky enough to live close by a station, but so do millions of Americans. Joe Biden has been getting everyone revved about them, and hopefully there is more government support forthcoming.
thanks, i’ll email you.
It is absolutely part of a broader issue. A recent Pew survey found that three quarters of Americans agree that the strength of the country is mostly based on the success of American business.
But because the auto industry has historically accounted for such a significant number of jobs and tax revenue, and because we have such an emotional and nostalgic attachment to American car culture, it’s particularly true for the industry. One of the reasons the auto bailouts and the 70s and the recent bailouts were able to happen politically was because of the sense that the economy depends on a healthy auto industry. But as retiring industry legend Bob Lutz recently said, the auto industry will recover when the national economy recovers not the other way around.
If the car companies would decide to go into producing public transit vehicles, they might push their weight behind more government support for that as well.
Good point about the rollbacks that have followed what have seemed to be previous tipping points, which is why I’m curious about what will happen currently.
I recently read about a resurgence in green industry in Detroit, beginning to fill in some of the gaps left by the shrinking auto giants. Most of these were for solar and wind energy production, though — I didn’t see any mention of transit. Have you seen any evidence of this?
Nate Berg did an interesting analysis in Esquire last year of the data on car travel, comparing previous recessions and gas price spikes with the current ones. He found that there has been a more significant and unexplained drop in driving, beyond that which would be predicted by recession and gas price rise.
One of the trips I met a woman from England who was writing a story about Marion Barry when that story was happening. We hit it off so well my SO wondered if I was getting sweet on her and she on me. Turns out this lady had recently gotten married so she shared the wedding pictures.
her husband and I were dead ringers for each other.
Eeeek!
One reason why this point is different than the 70s is the war in Iraq. Americans have been more willing to believe that the war was in good part a resource war. The public is less willing to be dependent on foreign oil. And while some believe domestic drilling is the answer–more are realistic about the unsustainability of fossil fuels. So while most are unwilling to give up their car, they are more eager for alternatives to the gas guzzler.
No. In fact the long reign of the carmakers over government transit policy has meant the atrophy of knowledge of transit engineering in the United States. American universities stopped turning out transit engineers and textbooks, which flourishes in Europe.
So Cash for Clunkers was supposed to help the economy recover, but who did it help?
In that same AC360 post that I mentioned earlier, http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/01/29/cash-for-clunkers-the-gift-that-keeps-on-taking/
you give an eye-opening example of how Cash for Clunkers actually cost at least some participants more money. You mention Greg, whose Cash-for-Clunkers deal netted him a replacement truck but also landed him in so much debt he had to get a second job. How typical is this?
Wow, so that would seem to be strong evidence of a real tipping point. How did Berg explain his data?
The analysis was conducted by Nate Silver and the link to it follows:
http://www.esquire.com/features/data/nate-silver-car-culture-stats-0609
What a great story! Did you stay in touch?
The oil sands in Alberta Canada come to mind, but from what I read about the actual production of a barrel of crude vs the environmental destruction…OMG!
Sorry Cathy–I said Nate Berg–but I think he’s the interior decorator Oprah likes so much. Nate Silver is the data guy. :D
Great, thanks for this link.
For a bit. She offered us a place to stay in London if we ever got there, but we never went.
Yes, Greg had an old truck that worked pretty well for him, but got sucked into the program and about $20,000 of additional debt. People do this everyday, even without Cash for Clunkers, and we met other folks who were deciding whether to pay rent or pay for their car, or even worse, one guy had let his child support payments go so that his truck wouldn’t be repossessed.
The problem begins with fraud and deception at the car dealership, quite a rampant problem. The car dealers are putting people into cars they can’t afford by directing their attention to what looks like a low monthly payment.
Yes, the Alberta tar sands are a big problem. The U.S. is the biggest customer for the oil produced there. I’ll mention another book worth reading on this: Andrew Nikiforuk’s “Tar Sands: Dirty Oil and the Future of a Continent.” Maybe another good one for a chat here some time? It’s an award-winning book.
This sounds like the whole mortgage debacle — do you think it’s similar?
Amtrak again. There used to be a line from Portland to Salt Lake City that was so convenient, I could hop on board late afternoon, get off the next morning, conduct business, get back on and be back before the next day’s business. I seriously considered setting up a second location for my work, then Amtrak dropped that run.
Sicko! No hotels necessary. Just think of it!
Catherine and Anne, I also want to ask you about health effects of cars. In Carjacked, you point out not only that cars cause cancer, but also that they’re toxic — the chemicals off-gassed by car interiors increase our risk of liver toxicity, birth defects, early puberty, and impaired learning. How much do you think this changes people’s behavior toward cars, if at all?
In fact, Public Citizen and CARS are two organizations working right now to get the auto dealers — who originate about 80 percent of all vehicle loans, many predatory or overpriced — regulated by the new proposed Consumer Financial Protection Agency. Right now, the bill working its way through Congress to establish that agency excludes the car dealers because they successfully lobbied to be left out.
I think we all need to be more vocal about public transit–if a line gets dropped and we miss it, we should let our politicians know. The voices supported new and improved roads are very strong by contrast.
I would love to see some of these old long-distance Amtrak routes restored. Anne and Catherine, how do you see this fitting in with your ideas for more investment in transit?
There is an effort to restore it under way. It is/was called the Pioneer.
Absolutely. There was a housing bubble and car bubble, and both were fueled in part by unregulated lenders. Our book describes the various predatory practices, including car title loans and interest rates as high as 30% or more on regular car loans.
Unfortunately, these health effects of the car are underreported by the media and largely unknown by the public. We know that much air pollution comes from cars but generally lack awareness of the panoply of diseases that result. And it is difficult to trace back–even a toll booth operator we spoke to couldn’t be sure that her cancer was caused by her on the job exposure to exhaust. (And ironically she had to keep the job to keep her health care benefits.)
Wow, this is important to know. Thanks, Catherine. So people could probably help by looking up Public Citizen and CARS to find out how they can advocate for car loans to be covered by this legislation?
I do think that greater awareness of off-gassing from inside the vehicle would affect behavior–because it is much more direct. If you think about the care that parents take to buy a car they think is safer than the next or to buy and install the best car seat–parents would act on this information if it was more widely known.
Now if that line was restored, it would be a gateway to photographing in the Columbia Gorge, on the Oregon side. There are several stops along the path, one about 1 mile from my all time favorite hiking trail and the crossing point for the Pacific Crest hiking trail. This certainly would fit my profile needs!
The mind boggles….
Good news.
Sad story about the toll booth operator. I know that linking cause and effect is difficult in all these cases of toxic exposure. How about all the chemicals that off-gas from the interior of the car? I wrote about that a little in Divorce Your Car! but we know a lot more about that now and I was glad to see that Carjacked included info about such things as flame retardants and phthalates off-gassing from car interiors. How much did people you interviewed know about this?
Any lingering questions out there from you firedogs in the lake?
We would love anyone on the site now to share their car stories or other thoughts with us on our website, http://www.carjacked.org, or on our book’s Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Carjacked-by-Catherine-Lutz-and-Anne-Lutz-Fernandez/152633627554
Not much. Even a very active environmentalist we know found this to be news to her.
There seems to be a growing awareness of problems with thyroid, and the possibility that, while sufficiently produced, the absorption of the hormone impacts it’s efficacy, thereby fueling possibly many of the contemporary diseases. The thinking is that environmental factors are at play. They even describe it as type two thyroid.
I just looked at the clock and see we have only about 10 minutes left! This has flown by. What else does anyone want to add before we run out of time?
And Katie already knows I’m on Twitter! But if anyone wants to follow me, I’m commenting on car culture regularly there at http://www.twitter.com/lutzfernandez.
Anne and Catherine, here’s another quick (maybe!) question for you: after researching and writing this book, do you look at cars differently?
There seems to be a pretty good community of carfree and car-lite folks on Twitter! I’m at http://www.twitter.com/ktalvord .
Also, Anne and/or Catherine, if you want to add a parting comment about what you would do if you were “car czar,” here’s your chance! Have a favorite policy change you’d like to make?
Absolutely I look at them and use them differently. First, although I had lost a cousin and a good friend in crashes, I had not really changed my driving behavior. Talking to the injured and others who have lost loved ones, I have slowed down considerably. I was a bit ignorant of how important speed is as a contributor to crashes. And the health issues have led me to drive less, walk more and carpool more. Although I was never an enthusiast, I loved my car and knew little about how much it cost me. I won’t buy a new one for a long, long time!
I really had no idea of the extent of the costs beyond the environmental, so I now feel that when I drive less I am also becoming wealthier, safer, and healthier. I realized that my mile commute to work was one I could walk, and I now do that a lot.
Seeing how much a car really costs also made me see public transit costs — which had seemed high to me — seem so much more reasonable (though government support is really needed to make transit more attractive and available to everyone!)
As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,
Catherine, Anne, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book.
Katie, Thank you for Hosting this good Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought this book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Starbuck — I’d like to know more about this type two thyroid condition. Any suggestions for where to get more info?
Take good care and come to Portland (via Amtrak!)
Thanks so much, Bev, Anne, Catherine, and everyone who joined us. It’s been a great discussion!
My SO has a link but she isn’t here. So where do I send it, to your website?
Are you giving me a magic wand? With it, I would redirect more funds toward transit, I would fund investment in alternative fuel vehicles, and I would regulate automakers and lenders more closely to make transportation more affordable and more safe for more families at all income levels. There. I did it.
Thanks everyone!!
from your mouth….
Thanks so much Katie and everyone who participated or listened in!
Katie, u rock. :D
You can reach me by going through my blog at http://katiealvord.blogspot.com — thanks very much!
David Dayen is front paged!
Jim Matheson To Vote No on Health Care
Ditto to you and Catherine!!
I just read the synopsis and didn’t notice if the government road system as oposed to a public transportation system was linked to national security, in effect subsidising the growth of the automobile, how could cars develope if the government didn’t develope roads
The Interstate Highway was developed with military movements in mind, by Eisenhower?
Yes. While folks call it the Interstate Highway, the official name is Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways. Calling it part of national defense was the hook used to get it predominantly federal funding
Chiming in on the previous three comments: perris is absolutely right, government construction of roads played a big role in helping cars take over. Special interests started lobbying government to build “good roads” as far back as the 1890s, and now taxpayers get hit for billions of dollars for this purpose.
Carjacked has a good general discussion of this on pages 93-96, a section called “The Tax and Spend Exemption.” In Divorce Your Car! I summarize some key parts of road-construction history, including political influences that led to the Interstate Highway System, in Chapter 3, “The Possessive Auto Takes Over the Landscape.”
Re: Eisenhower, he had seen how bad roads could hinder the military in his early days as a soldier. Apparently he’d been part of a military caravan that had gotten badly stuck in the mud and he never forgot the experience!