What are we waiting for?

We’ll be buying these panels made in China for 1/3rd the price they could be made in the US. Why? because were allowing China to depress the value of its $$ and at this pt. & its killing us economically.

Great idea, if it can be made sufficiently low cost and durable.

Could have been doing this using heat exchange technology, no solar collection required.

I’ve been intrigued by efforts to get fuel (e.g., ammonia, H2, or CO) directly from sunlight. Several universities are working on making that happen in ways that are inexpensive, efficient, and robust (durable). Right now, they have technologies that satisfy any two of those three requirements.

If I recall my thermodynamics correctly, road heat is of too low a temperature to give much energy, e.g., it won’t boil the water in a steam engine.

Are the chinese manipulating the Yen or are the american bankers screwing us yet again? There are differences of opinion I am not claiming knowledge of who is right or wrong but I will say that it is not the chinese that have created the world wide financial screw ups. That said.

If we have to buy from the Chinese because the Americans are not smart enough, willing enough, capable of producing what we need then so be it.

But doing this with roads allows for myriad signage possibilities.

The biggest roadblock I see is cost. That’s why it’ll have to start with parking lots first, I reckon, unless DoT kicks in a large amount of money for a pilot project. (And heat exchange is likely cheaper.)

Actually, people have proposed ways of collecting heat from the blacktop, though AFAI recall none are as efficient as solar road panels. On the other hand, it would likely be much cheaper.

Thanks Pw
This is awesome !
I really believe that someday ,solar panels on the roofs of our homes will be come as common as indoor plumbing
Can you imagine the cumulative effect of millions of solar panels on our roofs?
How about powering your electric car with the energy you produced at home?
And then there is the possibility of powering your home with the battery in your car.
Another thought I had was ;why not place solar farms on the ground below high tension transmission lines?
The possibilities are endless and are only limited by the bounds of our imaginations

but what would you do with that low-temperature heat. Obviously, you could heat buildings but I don’t see any way to turn it into electricity or fuel at a reasonable cost.

I’d love the idea of a half-pipe roof over highways – with cars and trucks having the ability to tap into the power just as trollies do, by way of an arial like thing that rises up. The half pipe would also keep the roads clear of snow and ice, and reduce salt pollution, keep cars cooler cutting down on air conditioning needs, etc.

The other day at the Grand Prix in Bahrain the track temperature was 127°..not hot enough to fry an egg (158°) but surely still warm enough to something useful with?

I have been reading about a new technology using foot traffic to generate energy. This would seem to be a no brainer with all the latent energy of millions of moving vehicles.

You only realize those types of temperatures in the really hot areas. Most of the time pavement does not get nearly that hot

That’s why I like the solar roadways idea. Of course, the power plant companies probably won’t unless they start working with their state DoTs.

Too cool!!

If we could simply capture the hot gases that are generated on Capitol Hill over the course of a week, we could power the country for…say…a billion years, give or take. Maybe drop a big plastic bubble over the city, and then vent it off?

I’d better get this contraption patented.

Who needs battery powered electric cars when fuel cell electric technology powered by hydrogen is readily available?

http://world.honda.com/news/2010/c100127New-Solar-Hydrogen-Station/

Imagine having your own hydrogen based fueling station at your home! It would be the ultimate nightmare of the evil oil oligarchy.

Yes to both?

Joule-Thompson effect.

That’s why it wont be hydrogen.

Second law of thermodynamics.

Entropy must increase. Cannot work.

What to do about night?

Stop the earth’s rotation?

We already have that to some extent. Natural gas is mostly CH4 (aka methane), which is one Carbon atom with four Hydrogen atoms attached, and you don’t want pure hydrogen pumped into your home, since it is very hard to handle (keep from leaking) and very dangerous.

Some of the wind farms in northern Iowa are using the electricity they generate to make ammonia (NH3), which can be used as a fuel and as fertilizer, and there are ammonia piplines running through various parts of the upper midwest.

Batteries, me lad.

Are you familiar with biphasic fluids?

Roofs are better, more partical, and don;t get damaged by vehicles.

Transmission Line Route are even better, rights of way, continuous, and close to the transmission lines.

Heat’s a problem with PV, as efficiency drops dramatically as the panel heats up.

On road, trucks are the major destructive force:

One legal 80,000 pound GVW tractor-trailer truck does as much damage to road pavement as 9,600 cars. (Highway Research Board, NAS, 1962).

Doesn’t have to reach boiling point, only has to generate enough heat to cause flow.

Last week a fuel cell researcher told me that he’d stick his neck out and predict fuel-cell automobiles on the roads within twenty years.

There is no bettery technology that exists. I’ve been reading about batteries since before high school, and they are just not there.

In addition, there’s probably not enough lithium on the planet to make the quantity of lithium batteries required.

A solar alcohol still stores more energy in the alochol (moonshine) than the equivalent volume of batteries.

Solar plus grid tie-in is the most practical. Somewhat green, not yet totally green. WInd could do base load, but the right-of-way from transmission lines is very difficult and expensive.

Evidentally BMW may take exception to your idea, as this 735H is production ready. The only thing missing is the infrastructure to support it, which could be overcome by adopting Honda’s home fueling idea.

http://www.cars.com/go/features/autoshows/vehicle.jsp?autoshow=&autoshowyear=2007&vehicletype=concept&vehicle=concept_bmw_7hydrogen&aff=chitrib

For the sake of our planet, let’s hope it’s sooner than later.

I think in the short term, hybrids using biodiesel are the way to go. AFAIK, heaters will greatly reduce the range of a vehicle that is powered solely by a battery. Algae is still a ways away, but it’s scalable and can be grown and refined all over the US. That would really decentralize power generation and transfer a lot of foreign jobs back to the U.S. That would reduce our trade imbalance. AFAIK, anything that runs on diesel, should be able to handle biodiesel.

Just think how good of a job the DOT has done with most of our cities highways…now we are going to let then take charge of our power grids…Are we crazy?

Batteries !
Some folks are already using old lithium ion automotive batteries (those that hold less than 80% of their charge) as a back-up for night and low sun conditions.
If you have an electric car the battery in your car can also work as a back -up.
Like I said all that’s needed is a little imagination

Any prediction of having something working in 20 years is really a statement that the is no technology anywhere that is viable.

If it were viable it would have prototypes in the market.

I read in 1980 that the medical industry would have a cure for AIDS in 10 years. They made the same prediction in 1990.

Three strikes:

1. Joule-Thompson effect.

2. Long trips.

3. Energy density.

I believe in climate change, but that is no longer necessary to see the necessity to go green. Wisconsin led the nation for awhile in good old fashioned air pollution.

Air alerts indicate sustainability issues
What will it take for us to look for new energy sources?

He said that it all came down to cost-of-manufacture vs efficiency vs longevity — he can now achieve any two of the three, and seem to think that he can have three of three within a decade or so.

This might work. One question reqwuiring research is the amount of processing necessary for the algae.

A way to reduce cost would be to inject the algae directly into the diesel engine to burn the fuel. The pollutants are unknown.

Might be the same as a mobile bonfire.

The old engineering problem:

Cheap, fast and good.

Choose two.

20 years is forever.

Thanks.

Can’t we connect (with the help of someone who knows something about electricity and a some reliable cables) a couple of extra old car batteries to increase capacity?

Okay, so instead of shooting everything down in discussion, how about elaborating on the possible and the bottlenecks to the possible?

Like this bit:

WInd could do base load, but the right-of-way from transmission lines is very difficult and expensive.

Please elaborate on why this is difficult and expensive.

Then we’ll agree to disagree. I don’t see any of those being an insurmountable object. Of course, we could just carry on with our oil based dependency because it’s more convenient—is that what you want?

Thanks for the response.

Gates and many others are trying to develop special mutations of algae that produce a lot of oil. At least right now we can not scoop it off a pond. As to the unknown costs of the refining process, good point.

These folks are bypassing the grid, but using an electrolysis process to turn wind-generated electricity into ammonia which can be transported in trailer tanks to the nearest ammonia pipeline. The reason they are doing that is because of the cost of getting their turbines onto the grid.

Rights-of-way for transmission lines require eminent domain and instantly generate the NIMBY effect.

As T Boone Pickens pointed out, the best area for massive wind generation is the prarie states. The energy consumption is in the east, where the prople are, 1,400 to 2,000 miles to the east.

2,000 miles long transmission lines are expensive. At $100k per mile, that’s $200,000,000.

This is a good reference: http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/emp/reports/lbnl-1471e.pdf

Do you by any chance work for an oil company? You seem determined to strike down any alternative offered.
What would be your solution ?
I chose solar because of it’s simplicity , all the other alternatives I’ve read here so far require some kind of huge plant ensure the continued participation of the oil giants or are extremely complex .
Solar already exists and with greater use improvements will be made in the panels themselves . The current move toward electric cars ,should lead to an improvement in batteries , batteries that could also be used in the home. Right now the biggest obstacle is energy storage

Yes old lead acid car batteries can also be used

20 years is forever.

Commercial power from nuclear fusion has been 15 years away for the past 60 years.

btw, this afternoon’s book salon is tangential
Carjacked: The Culture of the Automobile and Its Effect on Our Lives

Thank PW for posting this.. Very interesting. Thanks

We’re going to have to become much more urban, and drop the car. If you want an example of that form of urban planning, Canada, Toronto or Vancouver are very good examples.

We design out suburbs for cars. We design our work places for cars. Our City planning standards require 8 parking spots per car in suburban cities.

That’s a huge expense. You and I are paying for that.

Thanks!

The biggest wind farm in the whole wide world and maybe even the planet is in the Gobi desert apparently…those damn chinese again.
Gobi Desert becoming a centre of renewable energy production Of course the Ughurs are none too happy with it.

Lots of very smart people are working on our energy problems, and I’m convinced that they’ll come up with something relatively soon. But most of them seem to see serious problems with what’s currently available.

Nathan Lewis’ Group at CalTech has been doing a lot of good work, and he web page has the slides for a talk he gave at Santa Barbara on the global energy problem and the approaches they are looking at.

Agree with you that we should get away from dependency on autos to what extent possible and sensible urban planning is a sound idea. For the moment we will still need something for personal transportation. It is in our long term interest to adopt technologies that minimize the impact of our existence on our planet and move away from our oil based paradigm.

See my post @ 53.

I do not work for an oil company, not do I see them as the evil. Our complete abandonment of the historical concept of a city, and its complete redesign around the car has driven the US for 60 years.

60 years of suburbs that are expensive, polluting, and require cars, which require oil, and require our money. It’s a complete failure of political leadership, and free market capatilism, since the first oil shock in November 1973.

The problem with free market capatilism is that it’s chaotic and unmanaged. Changes will only happen when the system hits a tipping point and the old behaviours are no longer possible. This the US firmly believe in, in a very dogmatic manner, and this very belief, at the core of the US is responsible for amplyfing the “boom and bust” cycles with which we live.

Especially with the advent of biphasic fluids, I have been impressed with the potential of enhanced geo thermal as a baseload generator. Anyone else have an opinion?

A triumph whith no vested interest to disturb. This is not the situation in the US.

There are vested interests who do not want to disturb their investments in older technology.

Works well in Iceland.

Local cooling when heat is extracted is a major issue. Geothermal works in very specific conditions.

If Iceland is the example Geothermal requires spreading techtonic plates.

I would like to see a decentralization of power generation. That would make the system more redundant and the old power plants less a single point of failure. This would also take extensive and expensive rewiring of the power grid.

Small wind in cities, along highly traveled freeways is an interesting way to harness the wind energy produced by rush hour traffic. Stand on an overpass and feel the wind created by a truck going by at 60 mph.

Thanks.

I know in Switzerland they had concerns that injecting the water under pressure contributed to unwanted and dangerous seismic activity.

a downside of capitalism

Come Saturday morning, PW always has something interesting :)

From http://solarroadways.com/faq.html –

How much power can you expect to get out of a one-mile stretch of road?

One mile = 5280 feet. Our Solar Road Panels are 12′ by 12′. Therefore, it will take 5280/12 = 440 panels to create one mile (one lane, 12 feet wide). Each panel is expected to produce 7600Wh of electricity daily based on 15% efficiency and four hours of sunlight per day (for more details, see the Numbers page).

440 times 7600Wh = 3.344MWhr per lane per mile. So a typical four lane highway will produce 13.376MWhr per mile, based on four hours of sunlight per day.

According to a 2007 study by the Energy Information Administration, the average American home used 936kWh per month. Dividing this number by 30 will give us an average need of 31.2kWh per day. Dividing this number into the 13.376MWhr per mile, gives us approximately 428. That’s how many American homes can go “off-grid” for every mile of 4-lane Solar Roadway. We can wean ourselves off coal. Again, that’s based on four hours of sunlight per day.

For comparison, the Missouri town of Rock Port, with 1,394 residents and 647 households, is completely powered (except on calm days; though on all other days they make enough energy to sell some of it back to the grid) by four Suzlon 1.25MW turbines. Since 428 is 66% of 647, it would take 1.5 miles of solar road to provide the same amount of power as yielded by the turbines.

The problem is ultimately political, because we have no problem with pissing away that kind of money on war; in 2007 we were spending $750 million a day in Iraq.

We’re also spending a considerable chunk on bank bailouts which we will never see back, in part because assets have been devalued.

There’s also the issue of technology; there are newer methods of transmission, but they won’t work over distance at this point in time. There must be a concerted effort to create short- and long-term strategies for the shift from fossil fuels to alternative energy because of the interval between R&D and commercialization for every technology.

The one technology which has not been getting as much attention as it should is nanotechnology. Fuel cells, biomass, solar collection will all be shaped dramatically by nanotech, and yet we are not making concerted public investment in this field, nor are we even doing much at all to assure its safety now.

I also think we should invest in our rail system ala Europe as an alternative to building highways and to get away from our car centric culture. The idea that this paradigm is some sort of entitlement is wrong because our resources are not unlimited and at some point, we will have to live within our means. Investment in a safe, efficient, and cost effective alternative to individual transportation like rail or similar will pay us back in the future.

I’m partial to solar ,because of it’s simplicity .But, I think the answer to energy dependancy, will involve the use of many different technologies, some that are available now and perhaps, some as yet to be discovered technology.

No, a side effect of capialism.
If one uses Game theory:

Consider Capital/The Public as four quadrants:
Lose/Lose
Win/Lose
Lose/Win
Win/Win

Capitalism “works” only in the win/win quadrant.

That requires a political process to keep the system in the win/win quadrant. My perception is Capital (Money) has gamed the US system so we are in the Win/Lose quadrant. Capital wins, the public loses.

We will stay in that equlibrium until there is some sudden failure, or huge event, that move the system to another quadrant. Forcing that to be a disruptive event is Capital and Greed.

We agree, Spending on wars is the worst form of consumption, as there is nothing invested for future use.

Nothing built. Except a legacy of hatred.

Um, yes there is. It’s just a question of how cheap you want it. Lead-acid’s the cheapest right now, which is why it’s in car batteries. The problem is that it’s the least eco-friendly option, which is why the nanotech revolution is so important.

As for road surfaces and repair — from http://solarroadways.com/faq.html:

What are you going to do about traction? Cars slip and slide on wet asphalt, let alone wet glass. What’s going to happen to the surface of the Solar Roadways when it rains?

Everyone naturally pictures sliding out of control on a smooth piece of wet glass! Actually, one of the many technical specs for the top layer is that it be textured to the point that it provides at least the traction that current asphalt roads offer – even in the rain. I hesitate to even call it glass, as it is far from a traditional window pane, but glass is what it is, so glass is what we must call it.

Last year, I attended a three day workshop called the International Workshop on Scientific Challenges for New Functionalities in Glass in Arlington, Virginia. I received quite an education in the properties and abilities of glass! I presented the Solar Roadways to an international audience of glass scientists. Afterward, I was invited to travel north and present our project to Penn State University’s Materials Research Institute. I had lunch with several of their research scientists after my presentation. By the end of this trip, I had been thoroughly convinced that the glass specs that I had presented would not pose any problems.
How are you going to keep the surface clean?

While at the International Workshop on Scientific Challenges for New Functionalities in Glass, I learned of a new technology: self-cleaning glass. From Wikipedia: Self-cleaning glass is a specific type of glass with a surface which keeps itself free of dirt and grime through natural processes. The glass cleans itself in two stages: the photocatalytic stage of the process breaks down the organic dirt on the glass using ultraviolet in sunlight (even on overcast days) and makes the glass hydrophilic (normally glass is hydrophobic). During the following hydrophilic state, rain washes away the dirt leaving almost no streaks, because hydrophilic glass spreads the water evenly over its surface.

It is yet to be seen if this process will be enough to keep our Solar Roadways operating under optimal performance (100% clean surfaces), but it will certainly put a dent in a potential problem. There will be some obvious obstacles such as oil spills, sandstorms, storm debris, etc. Here’s the worst case scenario: when I was a kid in southern California, we used to chase street sweepers (vehicles with large rotating brushes) down the street. We still use them in the springtime here in north Idaho to clear the roads of the sand that was used for traction during the winter months. Similar vehicles could be used when needed to maintain a clean road surface on the Solar Roadways. Again, this is worst case and only if the self-cleaning properties of the glass aren’t enough to do the entire job.

The little research I’ve done bears this out. Glass is already used as a reinforcing material in concrete, so it’s not inherently weaker than asphalt. In fact, recycled glass is being used to resurface roads in Ireland.

We most likely won’t see a major shift to alternative energy ,unless we have another oil shortage or some other major long term disruption of the oil supply

I thnk we should build light rail/mass transit.

Our highway budgets should be focused on that in their entireity.

Our highway budgets are focuse on improving roads for cars. This cannot stand, but it come back to my comments above that our political leaders cannot lead, becuase Capital does not want change,

Nanotech’s what’s going to be what makes cheap, eco-friendly and efficient batteries possible. A123′s the leader in this field. Just think what they could do with even a week’s worth of what we spend in Iraq and Afghanistan!

Elevate the panels. It’s probaly cheaper than making the road surface photovoltaic. It’s feasible today.

Heinlein: Douglas-Martin Solar Receptor Screens. Photovoltaic Paint. I believe, the Australians have this in a research lab.

I like trains, too. But if it were possible to allow people to keep their cars and their freedom of movement in a eco-friendly way, would you be OK with that?

We’ve got optimum conditions at points along the Rocky Mountains (think Wyoming’s hot springs/geysers). Not spreading plates but uplift.

one problem with using glass is that you would need to prepare the roadbed before placing the glass. Many of the roads up here in the Northeast are old cart roads that were paved but have no real roadbed. the other issue would be the freeze and thaw cycles that cause heaves even on roads with prepared beds.
Would the salt and sand put down in winter scratch the glass? Or would the ice and snow melt when contacting the road ?

That’s already addressed in the Solar Roadways FAQ:

Wouldn’t it make more sense to just build canopies over the roads to hold the solar panels? Or just place solar panels on the north side of the roads, facing the sun? That way, we wouldn’t have to be able to drive on them?

No. It would be incredibly expensive as you would still have to pay for our current asphalt roads. We plan to use the money already budgeted for roads for the replacement Solar Roadways. If we still had to build current roads plus the canopies or side panels, the cost would likely be so high that taxes would have to be raised to cover it. You would also lose most of the features of the Solar Roadways, such as being lit by LEDs for safer night driving. The side panel idea would do nothing to keep the roads free of snow and ice, so northern cities would still have the removal expense and the accidents caused by the unsafe road conditions. Many of the other features would be lost too, such as saving the lives of millions of animals, a self-healing, decentralized power grid, all aspects of an intelligent road: reporting in with potential problems, reducing crime and terrorism, etc.

Hey Phoenix -

Some more from my greenhouse :

http://cbhopibluecornexperiment.blogspot.com/

We proved the pinch point already. Alternatives become more viable as oil approaches and passes $100/bbl or gasoline approaches/passes $4/gallon.

That’s why the self-cleaning glass concept is so important. In addition, they may be looking at self-healing glass that uses chitosan (which comes from shellfish shells) to self-repair UV and other damage. (At least, Scott Brusaw seemed very interested when I sent him some info on this a while back!)

http://www.nanopool.eu/couk/index.htm

Glass is the front screen on your iphone from there it’s almost unlimited, think fiber optics. Please don’t think Honda and others have done the home work on the cars.

Oh capitalism works — it just doesn’t work for everybody in a capitalistic society. The challenge is explaining to people we don’t have a purely capitalistic society for that reason; we’ve agreed on this with unemployment insurance and social security/health care in retirement. The capitalist portion of the society, though, would like to paint it otherwise.

Until we do something about reversing the concentration of media in this country, it’s going to be an uphill battle to convince the average Joe that we are a mixed economy and moving too far towards a purely capitalistic society won’t work for all of us.

as a side I’ve always wondered how much money could be saved if we could find a road surfacing material that does not allow for the accumulation of ice and snow

Already ahead on that. Commercialization within two years, maybe less on thin film solar collection, in particular roofing products with embedded solar collection.

capitalism for those that can cut it and social programs for those that can’t , our system is a hybrid

Thanks PW, this is a subject that is near and dear to me, and I can never get enough of it.

Time to go play capitalist , bye now !

“our political leaders cannot lead”

Yes. They have little or no vision beyond the comfort of the status quo, preferring to defer the heavy lifting to the future—a myopia which will ultimately be a terrible burden on our children. Is that how we want to define the legacy of our generation—that we knew what to do but had no will to act affitmatively?

Continuing to invest more and more in expanding our current highway system is not the most cost effective solution versus supporting mass transit alternatives such as the urban light rail and mass transit you mention and Amtrak. And sensible urban planning solutions also must be a part of this paradigm as well.

They’ve been testing that for decades here in Michigan. I used to drive every day along a test road. No joy.

What about flexibility of the solar roadway panels? The earth beneath the roadbed can shift. Does the roadbed or panel have to be perfectly flat at all times?

“Oh yeah let’s just magically make solar powered cars!”

Since solar panels are so “cheap” (they even build themselves) and factories to build these cars are free, as well as since it takes several square yards of panels to even move a vehicle the size that MOST OF YOU DRIVE, requiring likely a 40 foot long and wide panel on the roof… yeah, this is a no brainer!

A better idea: why don’t you just make a sweeping statement like “hey let’s use solar power!” since the sun is shining today, and do NOTHING yourselves to make this happen, and then point the finger at everybody else on Earth for being ignorant right-wing backwards fools for “not embracing solar power”- what ever that means.

So, are you lining up to buy the new Volt from GM? It will cost about 35,000 bucks. It’s electrical (not as kewl as solar) but should produce next-to-zero emissions, fits five people and can go pretty fast, and u to 40 miles on a charge. And unlike solar powered cars, it’s actually a completed and tested and safe vehicle, ready to be produced in large numbers, if people like you actually line up to purchase it.
My guess is you’re going out right now to enjoy the sun in your Chevy Tahoe/Ford Expedition Supersize/BIG-Huge Extreme-Duty Diesel Powered Pickup Truck. Nobody can tell you you can’t, you’re entitled to destroy the atmosphere, it’s in the Constitution that you can do so.
So, if you don’t want to come off as sounding totally unrealistic and hypocritical, perhaps you should begin designing a solarpowered car that can safely transport up to five people. Start today. Let me know when you’ve got your prototype built, and then when your car company is all set up, ready to produce them. How long do you think the process will take? A quick fifteen second thought like the one that led you to type this post should be plenty of time! Am I right?

We’ll be buying these panels made in China for 1/3rd the price they could be made in the US. Why? because were allowing China to depress the value of its $$ and at this pt. & its killing us economically.

Why? Because Walmart has convinced us cheaper is better and trumps all other value judgments. We don’t think long term. China is the Microsoft of the global economy. Coopting (if not outright stealing) any idea of value, buying market share or killing competition by undercutting prices.

Someone with a bully pulpit needs to stand up and point out that it’s okay to pay double or triple for domestic product (especially when it’s the government doing the buying) in order to:

-Maintain a (taxpaying) manufacturing base
-Keep (taxpaying) living-wage jobs here
-Recycle the benefits (i.e., money sent to China only comes back as loans, money spent here keeps sloshing around generating more activity and a stronger, more stable economy for years down the road – lots of taxpaying!)

We’d be better off getting rid of the vehicles & converting the roadway into meadows & forests

This is the germ of a brilliant idea that invites us to imagine the possibilities. Here’s your idea for government investment in a green energy enterprise that literally could change everything. Watch the carbon energy complex blow a gasket on this one!

They have longevity issues. 40% drop in electricity production in the first 2 years.

but should produce next-to-zero emissions

Umm, no. They move the emission from the exhaust pipe to the electricity plant smoke stack. Base load electricity is produced from coal, which adds Mercury pollution to the exhaust pollution.