Just exactly who the hell do the fools at the NYT read their rag? Do they think they are furthering political discourse with this chucklehead and David Brooks? Maybe next time they could go directly to the Onion for the views of the nutcase right.

How long are we going to continue to pull the scab of the Iraq debacle? It happened. Nobody who gets into government gives a flying fig.

MSM or Hollywood, it’s just entertainment.

comforting us with portraits of a world divided cleanly into good and evil.

Wasn’t that W’s one-trick poney?

Ross is the latest “conservative” “thinker” that the Times has chosen for its (ever-more banal) editorial page to replace the late and unlamented Bill Kristol.

I don’t know why you would read anything he writes. He is just another pointless rightist media PR operation. Like most rightist commentators, Ross would be better placed in the “lifestyle” section of the newspaper or its magazine.

Stick – this might be news to you, but to just say ‘it happened’ is pretty weird. I would guess that’s at least part of what the Nuremberg defense was. Isn’t there a saying about ‘those who refuse to learn from the past…,’ etc?

I think I might have to go see that movie now..

The invasion and occupation of Iraq was cold blooded murder and treason. The Times is complicit.

Matt Damon, and the Bourne legacies at least kept our interest. Trying to rewrite history, and not including folks, liberals and conservatives, that supported the invasion, leaves most of us “betwixed.” Maybe Bourne would have been more successfull in exposing the “good, bad and the ugly,” before we went to war. Both parties were “equal opportunity” enablers.

I am a big fan of Matt Damon, but Charles Ferguson’s documentary “No End in Sight” (2007) did a much better job covering the same set of facts.

Who the F___k is Ross Douthat, besides another revisionist historian? Is he on the Texas Board of Education?

Don’t forget the Mustache of Wisdom?

Douchehat complaining about explanations lacking complexity is like Hannibal Lector complaining about people eating meat.

I always wondered what the GEICO Cavemen did in their free time.

Someone ought to tell Ross that the internet is like Kryptonite to stupid since his stuff ends up on the intertubes.

Why can’t Ross Douthat join the rest of us in the world of sanity and reality? His gripe smacks of Dan Quayle going off on Murphy Brown for having an out of wedlock baby or any number of other pundits citing 24 as evidence that torture works.

Paging Judy Miller.

Seconded.

Heh. Almost typed Judy Judy Judy myself.

You miss the depth of my angst and cynicism.

The principle of personal accountability of Nuremberg has been undone by two presidents and now the American Psychological Association..

It has happened.

When I see some indication of the public lifting its eyes from the corrupt bloody mess under the scab and taking on pursuing and punishing those who are undoing our civil society I will take up what arms are available.

Yeah, and iirc, the laughingly-referred-to-as public editor pretty much blew it off.

The reason the NeoRight and their tools are constantly going revisionist ape-shit is they see their cherished ideology going the way of trotskyism.

Douthat needs to change his name to Asshat.

Americans believe in evil, but we’re uncomfortable with tragedy.

Our nation might be less divided, and our debates less poisonous, if more artists were capable of showing us the ironies, ambiguities and tragedies inherent in our politics…

Does this steno poolboy even read his own writings? Why should an artist try to lead a particularly recalcitrant horse to a well of tears, only to have a parade of media jackasses drop some fresh, oaty ‘wisdom’ on the path?

Douthat, the American tragedy runs live and uncut every fucking day (when not preempted by manufactured outrage or sports) – you don’t need artists to render it, you need eyes to see it.

;>)

A group that did a documentary did a better job than Matt Damon?
Say it isn’t so!
Two different entities with different paths.

Sure they are, unless you live in Texas, the Dakotas, Utah, Idaho, Kansas, Nebraska, Alabama, Georgia etc etc.

Depth? You’re being either way too funny or way too serious.

I vote for DrDick’s DoucheHat name. Fewer letter changes for the bureaucrats.

Well since Dems like the POTUS and Speaker Pelosi are complicit in the damning lies and money-grubbing that led us into a ginned up fake & phoney war in Eye-Rack solely for the enrichment of the Bushes and the Cheneys and their “friends,” I can’t be all that enraged *solely* at the neocons; the neolibs are just as implicated in the money-grubbing greedy policy of war in Iraq… which btw, why the eff are we still there? Can anyone riddle me that one (let’s not get into Afghanistan at this point)??

That said, Ross Douchebag is full of crap, and whatever stupidity he farted out onto the “pages” of the NYT is not worth the paper it’s printed on.

I heard the movie was crappy anyway, but at least it sounded like it more or less told the “truth” about why W got us into the war, so it’s no wonder that Douchebag is whining that the truth is coming out from the eeeevul Hollywood libruls.

Meh.

I know that this is way OT, but I haven’t really seen a good place for this comment. Since this guy (douthat) has nothing to say, it seems that I won’t interrupt much. One thing that is bothering me mucho lately is the kissing up to rahmbo. There have been at least two writers lately that have attributed the dim surge in ’06 and ’08 to rahmbo. IIRC, his people were a drag in the various races and where they did get elected have been outright blue dogs. The whole Dean 50-state strategy is being written out of the history so rahmbo can get credit that he doesn’t deserve, but plays well in the current obamarahma push. Of course, many of Dean’s people turned out to be less than real progressives, but at least he tried.

LOL. I’m willing to fight for Asshat. Force the bureaucrats to be more flexible ;).

LMAO! I’m going to steal Douchehat from you and make use of it for dear old Ross.

See if you can write an intelligible paragraph without resorting to profanity; it makes your point so much more effective, that is assuming you have a point.

First blame for this noisy turd goes to director-producer Paul Greengrass for using it as a vehicle for his trademark fast-cut chase scenes. There was no ideology, just ego. Screenwriter Brian Helgeland also garners mention for butchering Rajiv Chandrasekaran’s book, about 35 seconds of which survived into the film (pool scene). Although I have to say the Bizarro World Judy Miller character was a hoot. My friend and I fell out of our chairs laughing.

You know, I think they have recently found the reasons underlying the invasion of Germany and shutting down Hitler were due to bureaucratic reasons, too. Too many people died trying to get him out of power. No question we’d be much better off if he was still around.

When you can show me that a NUMBER of other countries with their own intelligence services stated flatly that Hussein had no WMD before the war, then, I might believe that “lied/died” bit.

What you really are implying was that Bush and his advisors knew definitively before hand that no WMD existed, knew they were lying, and went ahead anyway. You are not saying it specifically, but that is what you imply.

Even El Baridei (wrong spelling, I know) has said he was surprised about no WMD. Clinton has said many times the same. Hussein’s mid east neighbors–who ought to be in the best spot to know–thought he had them.

Saying the person lied and went ahead intentionally is a different thing than saying the person could have investigated more, or assessed the dangers differently or used better judgment, etc. That has some truth to it and I might even agree with you.

So, unless you have something definitive that shows Bush knew concretely beforehand that Saddam was bluffing….. I was going to sell peddle your story somewhere else, but I know your story will be swallowed here with no questioning.

really, it is all a PR stunt–in the reverse. And, in this case, I think you know definitively you aren’t telling the truth.

Truth or Crappy? Which one?

Ah, the product of a Harvard education.

Darkblack is an Artist. Please forgive him.
((DB))

Apparently, intellectual disgrace is not something from which conservative writers run.

Why isn’t Ross Douthat serving in the military?

Can I be both? . :-)

Why don’t you try sticking your head up your nethers, net nanny.

Better? Good. Now shoo.

;>)

What you really are implying was that Bush and his advisors knew definitively before hand that no WMD existed, knew they were lying, and went ahead anyway. You are not saying it specifically, but that is what you imply.

What would you call ignoring contrary evidence, exaggerating claims, making false linkages, to go with really just making stuff up (Saddam’s gonna get nukes! Saddam has evil drone planes that can spray chemical weapons on Detroit!)?

…to replace the late and unlamented Bill Kristol.

Unfortunatley, Lil Billy “Always Wrong” Kristol is still very much alive and spreading his nonsense at the WaPo0

Personal sacrifice is for the little people.

Anything you feel like. According to me. *g* Was just trying to understand. *g* Nap time for me. Must do swing shift today.

BT!!! Did you not get enough sleep last night?
Gentle poke. We’re all in the same boat, I thingk.

Focusing on Iraq’s reputed WMD and not the decision to invade a sovereign country without active provocation is really a useless exercise. So they lied. All governments lie. Bush and company just did it more often.

There was absolutely NO legitimate or legal reason to invade Iraq. Even if they had WMD, lots of countries have WMD, including Israel, Pakistan, India, UK etc et.

Until the people who fought there and had their faces melted off when they were hit with IEDs become whole again.
Until no one has PTSD.
Until the traumatic brain injuries simply vanish.
Until NEVER.

BlueTexan what contrary evidence, false linkages, making stuff up, spraying Detroit….? Would you please back these claims with facts not hyperbole. England, France, Italy, Spain, most of the middle east countries agreed that Iraq had WMD’s. In your infinite wisdom clarify your charges.

Even if they had WMD, lots of countries have WMD, including Israel, Pakistan, India, UK etc et.

Right. That’s where the piece about being cozy with al Qaeda comes in to play.

Ah, yes, the famous and always-effective-so-far Reagan defense strategy:

I’M NOT A CRIMINAL, JUST AN IDIOT.

Andrew Breitbatshitcrazy and his Merry Minions are exulting in the fact that Green Zone bombed at the box office — as if it were proof that The American People have rejected The Left. Of course ALL Iraq War films have bombed at the box office — including the 2009 Academy Award Winner The Hurt Locker. But far be it for any right-wing hack to be confused by the facts.

9/11 provided BushCo with an excuse for invading Iraq. That the excuse made no sense was of course a minor point — as Asshat’s NYT op-ed demonstrates.

What you describe might not be good, but it is a far cry from, “The guy knew definitively nothing was there, told us with phoney planted evidence there was, and then went ahead anyway.”

What you describe is (from your perspective) faulty assessment of the total evidence available. But, even with all the evidence known at the time, a person could have evaluated it a different way. The evidence was not definitive either way. You could argue a reasonable person should have erred on the side of restraint. Someone else might argue a reasonable person should have erred on the side of “why take a chance, get rid of him.”

Which one is best is a judgment call, and you might have the best judgment. But, that is way different from saying someone knew Joe didn’t have a hostage in the house, knew he didn’t have a gun, but went in a shot him anyway.

You’re right. We should have minded our own business and let the Saddam administration kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

On what fucking planet does Douthat live on? That was honestly the most bizarre editorial I have ever read.

Saddam wasn’t Hitler.

The lie that is, without doubt a lie, as I see it, doesn’t concern itself with the matter you framed it as revolving around. It’s not that they didn’t know definitively that Saddam didn’t have WMD but rather it’s that they knew they didn’t know definitively that he did have them. That’s rather Rumsfeld-esque… the lie was them presenting their case in terms that made it appear that there was no question that Saddam had WMD. The lie was Rumsfeld saying that they knew where the WMDs were… how could he know where something that didn’t exist existed? gah.. Rumsfeld-esque wording again.

“The narrative of the Iraq invasion, properly told, resembles a story out of Shakespeare.”

Shorter Douchehat: If only Judy Miller had written the screenplay.

Do. Not. Feed.

England, France, Italy, Spain, most of the middle east countries agreed that Iraq had WMD’s

What, is today the Klown Kollege FDL tour? You make a zany assertion, then insist that the OP writer back up their facts?
In lieu of cites which are beyond your possession, update your talking points, please.

;>)

Beside the fact that the entire country was essentially already boxed up by US military. They could hardly put an airplane up. Further, nasty as the guy was, there are those who would argue that the country was a stabilizing force in the region. So what did BushCo have us do? Flatten the country to save it. Just friggin’ brilliant…

Right you are, but I’ll just add this: Those using the “I was only an idiot” defense should be punished anyway, because society needs to discourage idiots from seeking high public office where they hold the lives of countless others in their hands.

No, it is your OPINION the judgment was idiotic. You might be right, but it’s an opinion.

People will argue for years whether it is better to have Hussein or not have him.

I know that many countries that get rid of a dictator sometimes suffer the loss of many lives to get rid of him. In a country with someone as entrenched as Hussein, a revolution would mean many thousands, maybe as many as from this way.

But, no revolution would have taken place. The people there were too damn scared of Hussein and his sons. Likely, some kind of Hussein regime would have been there for years and years. Since about 2 million people died from his previous years in office, it seems reasonable to assume an equal number might have died in the future.

So, whether the judgment was idiotic or not will go on being debated.

Yeah, that would have been a much bigger tragedy than the million innocents that the U.S. killed.

I can’t always explain my bent and at times very dark sense of humor.

I was attempting to expose by echoing the words and actions how the politicians and media are behaving.

I would in fact never discourag the betrayed and victimized from pointing accusing fingers at the perpetrators and wish there were more effectively speaking out and pursuing punishment. We all need to join in their outrage and defense.

Mocking Douthat is good fun and Lord knows the good people of this world need some good fun. But he is a triviality and distraction..

I think you’re ignoring a great deal of evidence that shows the Bushies intentionally mislead the American people to get their war. I think they knew claims like Atta meeting with Iraqi intelligence and the Evil Drone Planes and their nukular program were completely far-fetched and poorly sourced — and presented them as Gospel anyway.

However, I typically do not accuse the administration of “lying” because of the narrow scenario you lay out (i.e., Bush would have to know, definitively, that Iraq didn’t have nukes).

But willfully mislead? Yes.

And Bush told plenty of lies after the fact.

Never click on Russ!

I agree. Never question your own beliefs. You might find you were wrong.

I don’t post or read any right wing blogs. Why do I want to get involved in an echo chamber hearing nothing but the echo’s of my own opinions and views. I’d much rather hear what others who don’t agree with me think. Set down my views and see someone else’s take on it.

They don’t agree always. They call me an idiot. But, so what, I can take it. I don’t want to live in an echo chamber.

*Gulp* Profanities are discouraged here? I guess this isn’t a foul mouthed fem blog after all. F*ck.

Watch dem TOTs!

(Trolls On Tour)

Man, you are drowning in Kool-Aid. Got snorkel?

I saw the movie yesterday, and enjoyed it. I would have thought the NY Times would be ecstatic that the movie depicted the female reporter who sold the WMD bill of goods by using anonymous ideological sources (whose info. she never bothered to verify with other sources) — i.e. Judith Miller — was supposedly working at the Wall Street Journal.

I was sort of surprised the creators of the Green Zone didn’t just depict that reporter as working for the New York Times since that would have been a bit closer to the reality of the misleading of the Iraq war.

Even in Hollywood, they subtly try and white wash the culpability of the so-called Left-leaning press, and instead use an obvious conservative newspaper as the one who helped the neo-cons to sell the war. In actuality it was the Times and Post who sold us the Iraq war by giving the neo-cons credibility from the Left. Nothing helped Dick Cheney more than being able to tell Tim Russert on Sunday that The New York Times reported … as opposed to having to say The Washington Times or Wall Street Journal. It made it appear that both the Left and Right were on the same page regarding the intelligence.

Instead the Times comes out swinging in defense of the neo-cons. I guess Dick Cheney has acted similarly. Obama covers up for Cheney’s crimes, so Dick reciprocates by lambasting Obama every chance he gets …

A MILLION innocents? Wow, the headline says Bush killed only hundreds of thousands of innocents. Now he’s up to a million? Amazing.

David Dayen has a fresh cross-post up: New Health Care Whip Count: 190 Yes, 205 No (with leaners, 202-207)

gosh darn dog dang it……………………

OK. I do understand your point. And, you do have a point.

To me mislead as a description could be justified. I don’t agree with it, but it could be justified.

To me, the biggest back drop for evaluating the evidence, one way or the other, was that Hussein–which he later admitted was intentional–was acting like he had the WMD. He was acting like a person who was hiding something. Again, he later admitted he was doing it to convince his enemies he had them, so that perception was not misplaced. He wanted other countries to feel he had WMD’s.

So, the evidence on one side or the other needed to be evaluated against that back drop. That’s an opinion and a judgment.

He intentionally set out to make people think he had the WMD. He did a pretty good job. Against that, evidence supporting him having he WMD was given more weight than the evidence he didn’t.

To me, that is reasonable, and a judgment call.

It turned out to be wrong, but a far cry from lying.

Times change, baby. The adult political division of the Internet will just have to learn to cater to pre-teen sensitivities in a universal fashion, tout de fricketty frackin’ suite, lest the Leejun Ov Deesensee’s wrath be felt ‘librully’ upon the bathing suit-covered parts of potty mouthed progressive libertines.

;>)

Geez. What cheap shit to change the identity of the propaganda rag.

Which part?

The two million people who died during Hussein’s first years of rule?

The fact that the cost of throwing off dictators is generally the deaths of those working to do it–as well as supporters on the other side?

The fact people in Iraq were scared of Hussein and his sons?

Or, the fact that we might be better off without him?

None of that exculpates the Bush administration for the war crimes of invading a sovereign nation without demonstrable active provocation.

Having WMD or believing so is NOT demonstrable active provocation. It it were we should be invading India,,Pakistan, Israel, Canada, No. Korea etc.

To me, the biggest back drop for evaluating the evidence, one way or the other, was that Hussein–which he later admitted was intentional–was acting like he had the WMD.

But the focus on Hussein was in itself problematic, because he a) had nothing to do with 9/11 and b) had nothing to do with al Qaeda.

Besides, the pay in an echo chamber isn’t as lucrative.

more oedipus than shakespeare.

bush 2 vs. bush 1

and the HURT LOCKER was about WAR not this war. It was about how war envelopes the soldier. It could have been set anywhere–Somalia, Hades, Brooklyn, Ireland.
That it was apolitical was not that it walked away from the BUSH LIED MILLIONS DIED.
It just didnt talk about it. AT ALL.

How about, inter alia, the idea that right after getting hit on 9/11, our first priority could reasonably have been the pressing need to rid the Iraqi people of the burden of being ruled by a tyrant, like most other people in that region?

Not to mention that Saddam was the “plug” containing Iran, and now Iraq might as well belong to Iran. The job of the American Prez is to serve AMERICAN interests, not Iraqi interest in removing their own tyrant.

Plus, what TalkingStick said at #77.

Obviously you voted for Bush. Live with the guilt.

Ah I see, I didn’t understand. Thanks for that explanation, I was really beginning to wonder.

Sociopaths are incapable of guilt.

He may not be a sociopath, he may just be effectively brainwashed and deluded. In which case, guilt can be a great educator.

I get myself in trouble online and in emails too often. Irony doesn’t translate well. Thanks for calling me on it.

My prevailing feelings are immense pain, anger and helplessness. (sigh)

Ross is David Brooks without the nuance or snark, just the arrogance. Instead of a penny-loafered version of Bill Safire’s steel-toed wingtips, he gives us sandals and pinstripes. Somehow, neither he nor his views fit together. Listening to Ross on politics is like listening to priests at a retreat talk about dating.

Were the Times not so bent on reaching out to the right in order to pinch some of Rupert Murdoch’s base, were it not so hell-bent on imitating rather than competing with him, we wouldn’t have to listen to Ross at all. But because the Times does such stupid things – and imagines that Ross is an improvement on Bill Kristol – we do have to pay attention, as we do of the Teabaggers that the GOP manipulates so baldly.

Listening to Ross on politics is like listening to priests at a retreat talk about dating.

Hilarious.

Douchehat … another reason to nevvuh buy the NYT !

I know that it is late in the thread, but there were credible sources (the WMD inspectors) telling us and the admin that there were NO WMD. The myth that AQ had a camp in Iraq was deliberately used even though the camp was located in the Kurdish region and that region was protected from Saddam by US. It would take me too long to find all of the links, but, yes, there were deliberate lies (see powell’s address to the UN) designed to get us into war.

The State Dept intelligence unit and the Energy Dept. intel unit were our most authoritative experts on those issues, and both were on record saying “No WMD’s.” They got footnoted and ignored.

I knew about it before the war vote. Everybody in office should have known about it.

Gross negligence at best, deliberate lying and genocide at worst. Both criminally punishable.

Citing other countries as “knowing about Iraqi WMD” is absolute silliness, as they get nearly all of their intel from the US.

Lying? Indeed. Our cowardly “leadership” knew close to exactly what was going on in Iraq, pre-invasion.

I also blame the Americans for being so ignorant and gullible.

In poker it’s called bluffing.

His name is not quite complete. How about Ross “Bowdlerizer” Douthat?

got it now, thx

Creative writing seems to be in vogue when describing historical events.
Backing up opinion with facts may be to much to ask…again…where’s the “beef?” Some of us out here did their homework, read-up and get your facts straight!

Creative writing seems to be in vogue when describing historical events.

So now that you’ve stated your prerogative, what’s your objective? Surely getting paid per page view for jotting whimsical contrariwise fantasies on liberal blogs can’t be all that lucrative.

Sweetheart, I don’t have to provide you anything – you made the assertion, you back it up.

;>)

Objective? Contrariwise fantasies”?… The facts are on the table. Deal with it!

Actually I like Doughdick (as in doughdick do-nothing). It has a long history in my circle of friends.

I remember when they were trying to sell the Iraq War. They showed a picture of a guy holding an aluminum tube and I thought “that’s a fucking tent pole for Christ’s sake”. And they showed the cartoon drawing of the “Mobile Chemical Weapons Lab”. I thought that looks like cartoon of a fucking school bus. They had some guy holding a model airplane and saying this is what they will use to deliver the WMD, only bigger, much bigger. I guess some folks got scared by that little comedy skit.

Ah, but whose table, dear boy – yours?

;>)